Beyond Labels: How Words Shape Classroom Dynamics and Family Trust with Nawal Qarooni & Sarah Schlessinger, Ed.D.

In this episode of Schoolutions, host Olivia Wahl engages in a thought-provoking conversation with educators Nawal Qarooni and Sarah Schlessinger, Ed.D., about the crucial impact of language in educational settings. Drawing from their ASCD article Consider Your Words, they discuss:

• The importance of mindful language when discussing students and families
• Strategies for avoiding harmful labels and preconceived notions
• Practical steps for educators to reflect on and improve their use of language
• The role of coaches in facilitating these important conversations

Key topics include:

• Critical disability studies and linguistic justice in education
• Techniques for reframing discussions about student abilities and needs
• Engaging families as experts on their children
• Building trust and vulnerability in coaching relationships

This episode offers valuable strategies for teachers, coaches, and administrators looking to create more inclusive and supportive learning environments through thoughtful communication.

Featuring research insights from Dr. Sami Schalk, Dr. Subini Ancy Annamma, and Dr. April Baker-Bell, this conversation provides both theoretical grounding and practical advice for educators at all levels.

✨Check Out Nawal and Sarah’s Recommended Researchers & Resources:

• Dr. Sami Schalk, who wrote Bodyminds Reimagined and Black Disability Politics
• Dr. Subini Ancy Annamma, who was part of the team that coined DisCrit as a term, particularly this piece on DisCrit Classroom Ecology
• Dr. April Baker-Bell's Black Linguistic Justice 
• The Resilient Teacher: Creating Positive Change through Inclusive Classrooms, authored by Sarah L. Schlessinger, collection edited by Janise Hurtig

📣More Episode Mentions: 

• S3E25: Nourishing Caregiver Collaborations 
• Nawal’s book, Nourishing Caregiver Collaborations: Elevating Home Experiences and Classroom Practices for Collective Care
• S4 E2: The Art of the Classroom Visit: Insights from Morgan Davis on Effective Coaching Practices

When coaches, teachers, administrators, and families work hand in hand, it fosters a school atmosphere where everyone is inspired and every student is fully engaged in their learning journey.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Olivia: Welcome to Schoolutions, the podcast where education extends beyond the classroom. You'll leave each episode with coaching and teaching strategies that ensure every student receives the inspiration and support they need to thrive. I’m Olivia Wahl, and I am honored to welcome two guests today to have a coaching conversation, Nawal Qarooni and Sarah Schlessinger.

[00:00:27] Olivia: We are going to be talking about an issue that is near and dear to my heart as a coach of coaches, and it's something that I have really struggled to address and navigate and conversation. We have to consider the impact of our language. I reached out to both of you.

[00:00:49] Olivia: Because you wrote a phenomenal piece, um, it came out in August. It's with ASCD and it's called Consider Your Words. I have it right here. Before we jump in, I've been asking every coach, teacher, educator, a piece of research or a researcher that you lean on when it comes to the work we're going to be talking about.

[00:01:13] Olivia: So, um, Sarah, how about you? 

[00:01:17] Sarah: Um, so a lot of my work is grounded in critical disability studies, um, and really disrupting the notion of, of disability and what that even means. Ableism in our society, um, which is, has a lot to do with how we talk about kids and how we talk about families and how we talk about people and construct people in our minds.

[00:01:37] Sarah: And when I'm thinking about critical disability studies, um, right now, I'm really into Sami Schalk. I think she is an incredible, um, theorist. Uh, and then when I'm thinking about critical disability studies and, um, within the classroom spaces, I kind of lean a little bit more towards Subini Annamma, who does a lot of work with DisCrit, um, and really thinking about classroom ecologies and how we can build.

[00:02:05] Sarah: Um, spaces that really honor the diverse and intersectional experiences of our students. 

[00:02:11] Olivia: I cannot wait to link that in the show notes. I think it will be tremendous for listeners. Nawal, how about you? 

[00:02:17] Nawal: Well, first, I just want to mention that Sarah and I have known each other for a very long time. We used to be teachers together, uh, in Brooklyn, classroom teachers.

[00:02:24] Nawal: And now we teach together at NYU in the teacher residency program. I'm an adjunct and Sarah is their full-time teacher on faculty. Um, I lean on Dr. April Baker-Bell. She is at University of Michigan right now in black linguistic justice. I think about, um, they're not being a hierarchy of language; there not being a hierarchy when it comes to labeling children, families, caregivers, and they're not being a single way that family should look, sound or act, including the way that they talk. 

[00:02:50] Olivia: Yes. Yes. Um, so here's the thing I asked you already, if it's okay to start with an excerpt from your article, because this I've read it now several times.

[00:03:00] Olivia: I carry it with me. Um, and this really resonated. So this is speaking to teachers in a way, but also I, I want us having coaches listen to this, of thinking of their teachers that they're serving and supporting, right? “Imagine receiving a new roster of students and having already heard about that family, or knowing the reputation of a student as a behavior kid.

[00:03:24] Olivia: No matter your best intentions as an educator, you will inevitably approach families and students with preconceived notions, and those notions might be harmful or alienating. Seemingly mundane ways of qualifying and classifying caregivers and students through language impact our decision-making and our actions.  Our words matter.”

[00:03:43] Olivia: Yes, they do. So, both of you in this piece speak to experiences you've had. Nawal, I'll start with you. You're at a table, you're part of a caregiver conference with a child, and you hear ways that children are being spoken about that just are like, ah, not comfortable for you. What do you do to help that conversation pivot?

[00:04:10] Nawal: Yeah. To be honest with you, Sarah and I wrote this piece because we have experienced it so many times. We didn't know what to do moving forward, which is why we came up with the, um, kind of like a three-step protocol on taking a step back and trying to call educators in for how they might rethink and reimagine, um, those labels so that we're not labeling kids at all.

[00:04:34] Nawal: Um, and so I'm not sure if in the moment I would do much more than praise, overly praise and name validate what the children are very good at, um, as a result of, you know, uh, expanded literacies and just making sure that we're not 

[00:04:53] Olivia: Yeah, Sarah, so the other conversation I want to have is when you're in a teacher prep program, when you're speaking to adults that are working with children, and you hear them rehashing something that happened in their building that day saying, you know, where I was in a data meeting and or we're doing test prep, and we have kids categorized low, medium, high so that everyone will have their needs met, but we're seeing the students we had, you Deemed low, really not growing.

[00:05:22] Olivia: Like, what do you do in that conversation? 

[00:05:26] Sarah: I think, you know, the, the, again, to back to what Nawal had said about these being such prevalent, such repeated experiences, the low, medium, high classification is so everywhere. It dominates so hard on it's, um, it's so harmful and also so meaningless. Um, and I think where I, where I try to start when I'm having these conversations, you know, in, in teacher preparation programs with in-service teachers, as a coach, where I try to start is to really unpack, help people unpack what they mean when they're telling me that somebody's in the high group, when they're telling me that the low kids aren't moving, um, not to, to say, don't call them low, um, not to, you know, we don't use that language because that's, that's obviously not going to really help anybody change their mind or their thinking.

[00:06:16] Sarah: And it's going to put people on the defensive more likely. um, but it, but to ask questions about. So when you're saying low, can you tell me a little bit about what skills seem to be troublesome for this child? When you're telling me about, when you're when you're talking about your low students, who are the different kids in there?

[00:06:34] Sarah: Can you tell me about what they're great at? Can you tell me about where you see them struggle? Can you help me understand a little bit more about the humans that you're talking about? And I think to recenter it on the humanity of the individuals and to explore that there is no such thing as low.

[00:06:51] Sarah: There is no such thing as high. We all have our strengths. We all have our challenges. Um, people are very open to that conversation. And it's a, it's an entry point to disrupt the language of low, medium, high that really does. Um, actively push kids out in classroom context. 

[00:07:10] Olivia: Yeah, I so appreciate both of you speaking to the pause.

[00:07:17] Olivia: And so it's not the scolding of don't say low or because again, we shut down and that's not what we're going for. And so your strategies, the action steps you offer. Are so, um, embracing, they're welcoming and they're really doable. And that's why I'm psyched to have us jump into those. So, um, I'm thinking, Sarah, could you kick us off?

[00:07:40] Olivia: Because action step one is that idea of listing the categories and labels. But can you say more to that? 

[00:07:50] Sarah: Sure. Um, anybody who works in school knows that we have way too much shorthand. Um, and. And it's, it's because our lives are busy. It's because there's a lot that we're trying to take care of. We need to communicate so much throughout the day, and there is a need for shorthand.

[00:08:06] Sarah: Um, but I think there's a little bit of it that becomes taken for granted. So we begin to refer to students by their, their disability class placement rather than, you know, their, their names or their needs or their identity holistically, or, you know, any of the other structures that we can think about to be, to be sorting and categorizing.

[00:08:29] Sarah: We need to sort and categorize in schools, but maybe we can be more thoughtful in how we do that. So the first step that we, we really think is, is important is to kind of like step back and examine what is the shorthand, what are the go-to phrases and to take a minute and like really just list them all out and take a peek at them with a little bit of breath and a little bit of honesty with yourself.

[00:08:54] Sarah: Is that an okay way to refer to somebody? Is that a dehumanizing term? Why do I use that term? What does it help me to achieve in terms of speed or communication versus its potential negative impact on the individuals who I'm using? To, to speak about. Um, and just by taking that moment to shift, I'm not gonna tell, I'm not gonna call them the self-contained kids, right?

[00:09:18] Sarah: I'm gonna tell call them. I can call them the students who are in the self-contained room. That's a really big difference. Even though it's kind of small. Um, it is a big difference about how we've centered the human. 

[00:09:29] Olivia: Yeah, it's so true. So then in step two, um, Nawal, one of my favorite things about you is you are an endless source of beautiful questions to offer caregivers so they have access to the work and the learning, and you and I have a previous interview that I adore, um, for your book, Nourishing Caregiver Collaborations.

[00:09:52] Olivia: I'll make sure to talk that into the show notes, but for questions, step two is really about offering caregivers questions, right? 

[00:10:00] Nawal: Yeah, I mean, we want to think if a caregiver had heard any of the labels that you had previously listed in step one, would they understand? And how would they feel if a student heard?

[00:10:11] Nawal: Would they understand? And how would they feel? And then pivoting to the family? They are the, they're best experts in their children, right? Um, I really am trying to shift even, you know, family conferences at the beginning of the year to really kind of info-seeking conferences so that we better understand the Children from the lens of the families, like what their hopes and dreams are for their kid.

[00:10:34] Nawal: How do their children learn best and what inspires wonder and on their kid? Um, what topics their child is interested in, what opportunities are available for that child potentially to use all the language skills that they have both inside the classroom and how does that manifest outside at home. Um, I think one of, one of the things that Sarah and I are talking about also in planning and, um, teaching our own course is How do the ways we know our kids outside of classroom spaces inform the way that we teach them in the classroom space?

[00:11:11] Nawal: Um, and just being able to draw on that. And so I think step two is really important to involve families as part of our collective care model, but also in thinking about language, because if families can't tolerate or understand how we're labeling kids. I think if we're like just continuing off of what I was just saying, uh, if, if, if we're going to be able to do that, then we need to be able to do it in a, in a, in a

[00:11:31] Olivia: Yeah. It makes so much sense. And I think, you know, step three is where we have to jump into self reflection mode and do it with vulnerability, authenticity. So then Sarah, you know, how do we do that? 

[00:11:47] Sarah: I think if we're like just continuing off of what I was just saying, uh, if families aren't okay with it, how do I know if families would be okay with it?

[00:11:57] Sarah: How do I get outside of my own experience and my own self to understand that? I think a really great example of this is around misgendering kids, which is a super common thing in schools right now. Yeah. Um, where we have a, a generation of people who are just learning some of this and a generation of people who are actively pursuing their gender identity and being loud and proud about it.

[00:12:22] Nawal: Yeah. 

[00:12:22] Sarah: Um, And It's about curiosity, right? It's about, I don't understand it. And so then I'm not going to use it. And I'm going to say it my way, being in that space versus being in the space of, I need to understand this better so that I can be more responsive to what I'm, what, how I should be talking about and to my students and to their, their families.

[00:12:44] Sarah: Um, and part of seeking part of building that understanding and that reflective space is like, maybe you're not comfortable going to the families and saying, Hey, family that I am serving. Is this an okay way to talk about X, Y, Z, but you have people in your community and you can find people in your community.

[00:13:03] Sarah: And that's part of what you should be doing as a teacher to sustain yourself anyway, is having a community that can of, of practitioners and peers and collaborators that can speak with you radically and honestly about things that you might be saying that are not appropriate or not okay, or dehumanizing and people who you can ask.

[00:13:24] Sarah: And I think. You know, part of why Nawal and I come together on this, on this piece again, is because she, she and I can be those people for each other. We are comfortable enough with each other to say, Hey, I don't know if I'm saying this right. And I feel like I might be offending a big chunk of people.

[00:13:41] Sarah: Can you tell me, can we talk about this and to hash those conversations and, and, you know, learn from each other. 

[00:13:48] Olivia: Yeah. Go ahead, Nawal. What were you going to say?

[00:13:50] Nawal: I was just going to say, if you are an admin or in a leadership role, where you can give your staff and your educators time to reflect and sit down and make these lists of labels and make these kinds of action plans, or who can you turn and talk to?

[00:14:04] Nawal: It's important. 

[00:14:05] Olivia: Yes. 

[00:14:06] Nawal: It is valuable time. 

[00:14:07] Olivia: It is. You're walking in my mind because I was just going to say also for coaches to work at grade level meetings, um, do PLC work around this. And so something I continue to think about, um, I was in conversation with Morgan Davis yesterday around class and visits at the beginning of the year for coaches.

[00:14:25] Olivia: And, um, the conversation is actually coming out on Monday, and something we were talking about is that idea of trust. And that trust isn't something you build beforehand, you build it on the ground, like in the work. And it's so critical that coaches have confidentiality, um, norms for confidentiality with their teachers.

[00:14:49] Olivia: So I need as a coach that to be that person, you can tell me. And the idea of a feedback loop, you know, teachers can tell me anything and that is not going anywhere. So coaches can be that safe person that can reach out to other coaches, reach out to colleagues. They can be the research finders for teachers that may be struggling.

[00:15:13] Sarah: And I think one of the pieces for that building that trust is, is bringing your own vulnerability to it as a coach. I think there is this construct that we come with, or we think, because I am coach, I need to be up here and helping you through this process, rather than with all teaching and learning, if I can be vulnerable about where my issues and needs and growth and areas of growth are.

[00:15:39] Sarah: I'm inviting you into that process with me as well. And you can trust me because I'm showing you I am trustworthy. 

[00:15:46] Olivia: Yeah, that's brilliant. Um, I would say circling back to something you started out with. The reason you both crafted this piece is because you didn't have the answers and you, we needed something.

[00:15:57] Olivia: And Sarah, that goes back exactly to what you just said. Coaches don't have to be the people with all of the answers. They have to be the people that are authentic and vulnerable and willing to get really messy with the work and to be thought partners. Um, so I am so grateful for this article being out there in the world.

[00:16:19] Olivia: Thank you both. Um, that action steps are truly actionable and applicable, and I hope that these strategies help coaches and teachers, caregivers and administrators alike. So thank you both.

[00:16:30] Nawal: Thank you for having us. 

[00:16:34] Sarah: Thank you so much. 

[00:16:34] Olivia: Yeah. Take care. Schoolutions is created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Special thanks to my guests, Nawal Qarooni and Sarah Schlessinger. Also a big thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music that's playing in the background. Don't forget to reach out to share your coaching and teaching strategies with me. You can leave me a voice memo at my website, www.oliviawahl.com/podcast or send an email to scholutionspodcast@gmail.com. Make sure to tune in every Monday this school year, because you will get great strategies from coaches, teachers, administrators, and families; all that you can immediately apply to better the lives of the students and children in your care.

[00:17:22] Olivia: I can't wait for you to join the conversation next Monday. Take care.