Teacher Planning Revolution: Using the Three Student Protocol to Improve Student Outcomes with Denise Goldin-Dubois

Join me in conversation with veteran educator Denise Goldin-Dubois to explore her innovative three student protocol – a powerful planning and reflection tool that helps teachers deepen their practice. With over 25 years of experience in public education, Denise shares how focusing intentionally on three specific students can transform instruction for an entire classroom.

Learn how to move beyond broad generalizations and track observable facts about your students rather than making inferences. Discover practical strategies for making your planning more concrete and actionable, whether you're a classroom teacher, instructional coach, or administrator. Denise explains how this protocol can be adapted for multiple contexts, from individual classroom planning to professional learning communities and teacher evaluations.

This episode offers valuable insights for educators looking to humanize their practice while improving outcomes for all learners. Whether you're teaching math, literacy, or any other subject, you'll come away with practical tools to better understand and support your students' unique needs and potential.

Highlights include:

• How to select and track three focus students without falling into high/medium/low categorizations
• Ways to anticipate and plan for student responses to tasks
• Strategies for using the protocol in professional learning teams
• Tips for making evaluation data more meaningful through student-centered narratives
• Methods for shifting from teacher-centered to student-centered instruction

Episode Mentions: 

• Julia Aguirre
• Cris Tovani

Denise’s Other Resources:

• Five Promises of Math Class
• Why plan & How do We do it for the mathematics classroom?

#ThreeStudentProtocol #FivePromisesofMathClass #TeacherTips #StudentCenteredLearning #DifferentiatedInstruction #InstructionalCoaching #TeacherPlanning #ProfessionalLearning #TeacherPD #EquitableEducation #TeacherReflection #DataDrivenInstruction #EdChat #PedagogyMatters #StudentSuccess #TeachingStrategies #HumanizedLearning #PLCs #PLTs #TeacherCommunity #MathTeachers #K12Education

When coaches, teachers, administrators, and families work hand in hand, it fosters a school atmosphere where everyone is inspired and every student is fully engaged in their learning journey.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Olivia: Hi there. I'm so happy you're here. Here's what you'll gain by listening to the very last second of this conversation with Denise Goldin-Dubois. In this episode, Denise and I discuss her Three Student Protocol. It's a powerful planning and reflection tool she's created, and it will help you as a teacher humanize your practice by focusing deeply on three specific students.

[00:00:22] Olivia: It ultimately, I think, will help you also improve instruction for all of your learners. You'll also learn how to track observable facts rather than inferences about your students, and that will inform your instructional planning and decision-making. Denise also shares how you can make your planning more concrete and actionable, and you can use her protocol for multiple contexts beyond individual classroom planning. Stay with us. I'm so excited to have you join our conversation. This is Schoolutions: Coaching & Teaching Strategies, the podcast that extends education beyond the classroom, a show that offers educators and caregivers strategies to try right away and ensure every student receives the inspiration and support they need to thrive.

[00:01:11] Olivia: I am Olivia Wahl, and I am so happy to have Denise Goldin-Dubois with us today. Let me tell you a little bit about Denise. Denise has been a public school educator for over 25 years. She has taught middle school and high school mathematics in Colorado, Texas, Maryland, and Guinea, West Africa. For the last 15 years, Denise has been an instructional coach all over the country.

[00:01:37] Olivia: Denise, I reached out to you today, or I reached out to you a while ago, and I'm lucky because our paths crossed working in the same school district. I think you are brilliant. And the reason I love you a little extra is because you are so witty and captivating that I could sit in your professional learning sessions for hours and not even know I'm learning because I'm just with you in every moment. One of my favorite pieces that I took from a first session with you was around your Three Student Protocol. And so, I asked that you come and share this with listeners because I think it's profound and I think it's a game changer. Um, before we jump in, what's some research or a researcher that you're leaning on lately?

[00:02:27] Denise: Um, one of my favorites is Julia Aguirre and I was able to be in a conference session with her in Colorado a few years ago. And she does a ton of work around identity building and mathematics and the importance of that, which has really been kind of the groundwork for most of the work that I've been doing in the last several years. As a result of that, we got to do a really fun problem with her in a big group, and I've actually used it several times, um, with teachers kind of all over the place. It's just different ways to think about how mathematics is used, but also how we bring of ourselves to our mathematics experiences. So that work has been amazing. She's at University of Washington in Tacoma. Um, and I just realized I was out in Tacoma last spring and I completely forgot to like go try to find her. I'm sure it would have been stalky, but still, I should have done that and I didn't even think about it. So, she's amazing. 

[00:03:17] Olivia: Well, and, and so let's talk your Three Student Protocol, uh, because sitting in a room filled with middle and high school mathematics teachers, you know, I'm coming with more of a literacy-based lens, but the coaching lens of how focusing in on three children that we are serving can actually have this incredible ripple effect to all of the kids that we're serving. So first I'd love for you to explain what is the Three Student Protocol. 

[00:03:47] Denise: So one thing I think about really with everyone, but particularly with mathematics teachers, just because I'm a mathematics teacher, is this need to plan, but that sometimes in mathematics, people don't really see that need. They aren't like, like, what do I really need to do to plan?

[00:04:03] Denise: I'm just going to work problems. They're going to work problems together. So I think of this idea of planning with students in mind and literally having students in mind. So when we are too broad brush generalizing, um, we really are kind of planning for no one, in my mind, if you're trying to plan for 30, you're really planning for none. So, it was stepping back. I had an experience where I had an opportunity to kind of think a little bit more deeply about specific students. And I kind of honed that down to this idea of three students. And so, I try to break it into three sections. So, the first one is, I pick three kiddos in my class, and when I'm working with teachers, I generally want them to use, just kind of pick one class, because as you're planning, it's a little bit easier if you just have one class in mind.

[00:04:47] Denise: If you happen to have all the same prep, probably would be okay to flip across class, but really trying to think about just that one class. And I think about one student who I'm worried about for whatever reason, like I'm worried about them really doing all the learning I want. One student that I feel like, Oh, yeah, things seems to be working. What we're doing seems to be working. And then one student that maybe I'm thinking about could use a push. There's more that could be there that I'm missing out on. If I, if I gave them an opportunity, maybe more could happen. Um, I'm very specific about not talking about high, medium, and low kids. I think that's not a descriptor of a child.

[00:05:21] Denise: And I also really want this idea of I see their little faces like when I'm doing this. So usually teachers will like bring up their grade book and they'll be looking at kids or they might bring up their seating chart because it just helps them really think and see who these kids are. So the first step is, what do I already know about them?

[00:05:38] Denise: And this has been some work over time of, it's not about inferring. So words like lazy, we don't know if a kid is lazy. I don't have any idea that they're lazy. I might know they don't turn in their homework. That's just a fact, right? It's not a judgment. So it's being, I'm not trying to infer anything at all. So I'm just listing things that I happen to know about that kid. So I have my three students that I use with teachers, Angel, Julio, and Ioana. So my Angel, I knew she was a repeater. I knew that her mom advocated for her. The first time I wrote it, I said, her mom cares. And again, I don't know if she cares, but I do know that she advocates she calls me, she lets me know, Hey, here's what's going on with Angel. 

[00:06:20] Denise: Um, so it's really been something to try to not do that, to, to be, I'm not trying to make any kind of a judgment at all. Um, the only place I allow the inference is the very last kind of bullet of how do you think that this student sees themselves as a mathematical thinker? And I can't know that for sure, but it's, here's the, here's my gut that what I think is going on. Like, I don't think Angel really sees herself as a mathematical thinker. My Julio, who's my kid who thinks, seemed to be working, he's super. active in school. He's, he cares about his grades. Well, that's what I first said is he cares about his grades, but does he?

[00:06:57] Denise: He checks his grades all the time. So that's the truth. He checks his grades. Um, for him, I would say that I think he sees himself as a student more than as a thinker. So it's about the act of being a student, not necessarily the act of kind of going deeply into the mathematics. And then my Ioana, who's the kid who helps others, at first I said she likes to help others again. I don't know if she likes it, but she does it all the time. Got it. I do think she really viewed herself as a mathematical thinker. So I try to have teachers really think about their students. And so the first thing is just kind of silence in the room and everybody's kind of writing these lists down. And, um, it's super cool to kind of feel that energy as they're doing that.

[00:07:38] Denise: But I will say, a few times had teachers that didn't really have anything to write. They had like two bullets. And so I try to do this early in the year, and I actually will often do this with, um, schools early in the year. And then teachers will use these three students for their, their slow goals, for their evaluation and everything to really hone in. But what I tell them is like, it's not too late. If you notice, I don't know enough about these kids. Well, that's a great thing to know. So get out there and figure it out. Like how are you going to find out more about them? So that's kind of the first step, is just, here's what I know. Okay. Then, I like to do some kind of thinking activity with teachers, just because it's helpful to be looking at a task and doing something just as a thinker yourself.

[00:08:20] Denise: Yes. But once we've done that, then our next level is, okay, so when Angel gets this task in front of her, what's she going to do? So then the next step is, what do I know about the student move? What will these three kids do when this task comes in front of them? Okay. And that, you know, again, we're kind of listing it out. After this, I often have the teachers then turn and talk and just introduce your students to each other and talk about this, like what they're going to do. So another cool thing that I've seen done, and I think it can be real powerful is for PLT, for those professional learning teams, to just use these three students as your conversation center.

[00:08:58] Denise: So like, I'm going to bring student work from these three. I'm not going to bring a hundred pieces of student work because then I break the side. And I say, here's my student work. And now let's talk about stuff. Right? Like, so I'm not really doing anything with it. So now all of a sudden I know your Angel. I'm like, how is Angel doing? You were telling me she was taking that assessment. How did it go? Like I'm starting to be kind of a co-owners of the learning of that kiddo. Um, so that's been super cool. And then the last step. So you have, here's what I know. Then the second step is what will they do that?

[00:09:26] Denise: What's the student moves. And then the last step is then what's my teacher move? So if I know they're going to do those things. Okay. I already know it. They're going to ask for a pencil. How am I going to prepare myself for that? Like, what's my teacher move? And so I have, you know, these various lists of kind of a sample that I always run through with my students. But a few of the comments that have come up, I had one teacher who said, this is so great. I don't have to be annoyed with them. I, cause I know they're doing it. Why do I get annoyed every time? I literally know they're going to do it. Yes. It's not a surprise. Yes. How can I like, what's my move kind of in advance?

[00:10:02] Denise: So that's been super cool. And then I had one teacher who said he put his three students, he made sure they sat in different parts of the room because then he would look at them like they didn't know that they were listed on there.  Paying attention. He's like, and then I knew that I was really looking around at each person. And so that was super cool as well. Just making sure that you're being mindful of that. And then, you know, I had a student like my Angel truthfully, like she had a B by the second semester and I, she didn't need to be my Angel anymore. I put Tyler on there. Tyler really still needed something. So it's not like that have to be like, I've had teachers I've, well, what if somebody moves?

[00:10:41] Denise: We'll just pick somebody else. It's fine. It's like not set in stone. Right? This is for you. To do your thinking. So as I'm planning, then I am asking myself, will this work for Angel? Will it work for Julio? Will it work for Ioana? Because if I say no, it won't work. Then why am I going to do that? Like that doesn't make any sense. So like, what am I going to need to do so that it does work? So is there going to be a scaffold or is there going to be, you know, like something I think about, you know, when I hand out first thinkings, like I will end at Angel, I will lay it by her desk and I will stay standing there to make sure she gets started. Cause I just, got it. That she won't. So that's kind of the premise of where that Three Student Protocol comes from. 

[00:11:21] Olivia: So I want to just pause because you just gave numerous strategies and my favorite thing about the Three Student Protocol is the way it really humanizes our work and so you offered also all different ways that this supports teachers and coaches in their planning work to make sure it's always grounded in student lenses. So that idea of, I adore using those three kids as your PLT or PLC conversations even, right? And so that idea of, I know your kids, you know, my kids, how are they growing? How are they nurturing? So that conversation is centered. It also felt like a big relief to me because I see teachers bringing piles of student work.

[00:12:10] Olivia: A, it's awesome. They're gathering student work. Good job. And let's look at it in a really systemic way. So the other piece I just heard you mention is that idea of planning because too many school districts are just slogging through the day by day. This lesson is what I'm told to do. This is really flipping that on its head. And so you have curricula, you have standards that you need to teach, but how then are you parsing out? Like, here's how I know these three kids may navigate this task. How are you choosing your whole class instruction then? And then what you're tackling and maybe invitational minis. 

[00:12:52] Denise: So I think, um, one of the biggest pieces is when you're, when you think through, I also know that it can't be so cumbersome that I'm not going to be able to manage it, right? So I can't just, um, think, like, I'm going to write down all of these things about each of these kids every lesson. 

[00:13:14] Olivia: Okay. 

[00:13:14] Denise: Like, I don't need that. I don't need to do that every time. I know who these kids are. And if I don't, again, find out, right? Now's the time. So, like, if I know I want to be able to answer the question, what do I know about them as a mathematical thinker? Okay. Then I need to give them opportunities to be mathematical thinkers, right? Like, if I'm not, then I'm not going to be able to know that. So, when I think about those, just that quick questioning of like, Ooh, you know what, Angel is going to not, Like, this question is not open enough. That's when I'll think this task is too closed.

[00:13:42] Denise: If it is, like, give me the answer. Well, she doesn't know what to do to get the answer necessarily, so she just won't. I know this about her. She'll ask to go to the bathroom. She'll be looking at her backpack or whatever. So I'm gonna make sure, like, oh, well, can I open up that question? Can I start out with a notice and wonder on this instead of going straight to the solving? Can that be once you've thought about it for a minute? Now I'm going to talk to somebody else. So when I think about, so I have these five promises of math class that my work on with teachers, which is for another episode, but that idea of a first thinking, like, how am I going to make sure every kid has had a chance?

[00:14:21] Denise: The importance of first thinking for an Angel. Is I need to allow my brain to have an idea, or I'm just going to go along with the group. Like I'm not, and I'm not even knowing I'm doing that, right? I just, I think I'm participating. I'm like, Oh yeah, I agree with you. I agree with what Livi said. Yeah. Yeah. Do you, do you know what Livi said? Cause you didn't think about it on your own. So the importance of that, why that matters to an Angel, those, that piece is how it helps me know. So those idea of an invitational meaning, here's where sometimes people get a little bit caught. Like, well, what if Angel doesn't need it?

[00:14:52] Denise: And somebody else does. It's like, again. That's okay, but I'm using kind of Angel in my mind as a human person to think about how she's going to be dealing with this. And so what, if there is a struggle, what might she need? It might turn out she doesn't have a struggle, but someone else might have that struggle. I was already thinking about for Angel. So I'm allowed to kind of broaden the idea. And I wouldn't even call it generalizing because it's not, it's specific. It's actually more specific thinking about an actual person. Right. I'm not thinking about all the people. Okay. Um, but it allows me to kind of broaden in my thought on like who else might benefit from this experience.

[00:15:31] Denise: So, and then I go to the Ioana where, you know, she'll do what I ask that she would be willing to do more. How do I offer up that opportunity in a way that's manageable, meaningful for both her and me? So I feel like also kind of a piece of that planning. Um, does that make sense? Does that kind of It does.

[00:15:53] Olivia: It does. And because when I'm listening, I'm thinking if I were a teacher in my own classroom, then I would have those three students in mind with that specificity. And yet it does help me think of other kids that are, I'm concerned about because I'm tailoring and I have a backup plan. For concerns, not specifically what that child may need, but just the, the bigger brushstrokes. Um, I have to share with you sitting in that session. I try to make every professional learning impactful for my own practice. And so I know I am not coaching and jumping into a math classroom, right, right away. Um, but I also know I'm coaching coaches. So, when you asked us to think of three students, I thought of three coaches that I'm serving.

[00:16:40] Olivia: And um, I did that exact same piece and layer and it was extraordinarily helpful for me because then I'm thinking of the coaching task. What's the work? What are the typical barriers for that person? And so I'm living that protocol. So I just want to give a shout out because this work, it's Parallel Practice 101. It's a, it's a way of thinking and grounding everything we do with that human connection. 

[00:17:08] Denise: I was working with coordinators in a building, so like kind of a large middle school. And we did the same thing as each of the content coordinators thinking about the teachers in their department and how they can, and you know, there's, there is important, it's important to have this kind of safe space to be having these conversations when it's about adults.

[00:17:28] Olivia: Yes, too. 

[00:17:29] Denise: I mean, it is true also about students, and this is why I really push this idea of like, I'm not inferring things. I'm not using pejorative terminology. I'm just saying, here's what I see. Here's what I see happen. It's not about what's good or bad. And that is work for teachers to move away from, you know, they're not motivated.

[00:17:49] Denise: Well, you don't know if they're motivated. Like, that's not a term that you could use there. So what do you know? Um, they don't participate in their group. Okay. So then that makes me wonder, well, what is it? Yeah. A boring task that I'm asking them to do, like it allows me to put myself in there and I think that can be really important, but one cool thing, and this is kind of newer because I, in the last few years was working in a building as a teacher coach as well, so I was doing my own evaluations and then I had brought this three student protocol to the staff, so I had asked the principal about using those three students in this, um, you know, the slow goals, whatever goals people use for their eval students, And, um, I was like, can I, instead of writing data that says, you know, 22 percent of students got a BIS and, you know, these giant, like they have charts and graphs that are not meaningful to the teachers.

[00:18:43] Denise: Can we just talk about these three kids? So then these administrators started, like when you would have a post eval and a pre eval. They would ask about the three students, like, tell me who they are. Tell me what's going on with them. How's that going? And then the write up was this narrative, personal. Here's what I saw happen. I was working on, you know, with Angel, I tried this totally didn't work. So then I tried this or it really worked or whatever, but it became, um, much more meaningful for the teachers, right? Like when they were writing it up and it was interesting talking to them because they're like, I've always made these huge.

[00:19:19] Denise: Charts, which I could give one rip about, they seem to like them, so I do them anyway. But so like, I really just talk about students, I'm like, well, they told me that I could, so try it. And it has been really powerful. Again, it takes that humanizing into all these different layers. So like, with your evaluator, with your coach, with your department. So then sitting down at a department meeting, let's take the first five minutes, pull up one of your kiddos, talk about how it's going, you know, maybe with a different grade level or whatever. So it's been. Something that has been able to kind of go across, um, and this is, I do this with the whole staff, so it's not only my specific kind of deep dive work is with mathematics, but I've certainly worked with teachers in every content that can also really think through this, electives, all of it, like it's been really fun conversations and the buzz, when you have the teachers turn and talk and start talking about their kids, it's the coolest, because you realize that that's what's so cool about teaching, right, because like it's the actual, the kids, So when they get excited to talk about here's a kid or sad, like I'm not reaching this kid, like I need help.

[00:20:27] Denise: I don't know what to do. But you just feel that energy of even humanizing them, right, a human feature as they're really trying to make these connections. So that has been really cool. 

[00:20:38] Olivia: And I, you know, we're going to wrap, but with that said, I think the other piece that's so powerful about this is the idea that. You have so much research that has your back, and the most important piece is the tending, because This is such a way of tending to each of our learners, so I could see, yes, in the pre and post evals, honing in on these three children, but if I, as a teacher, can close my eyes and picture all of the kids in my class in this asset-based way of thinking, and, you know, I heard you, because I struggle with this, each time, you sometimes started with an inference, But then you bounce it back and say, no.

[00:21:26] Olivia: So I think that there's not one right way to go about it, but it's that awareness of how we speak of children. And so it's the pausing, not making assumptions and then flipping it if we do. And that takes a lot of vulnerability and humility. So that's why I love this. I think teaching, we have to be really humble, um, and reflective and that's what this is all about. So. I appreciate that. Um, who's an educator that is inspiring you lately in your travels? 

[00:21:56] Denise: Um, you know, I'm just, when I think about when I made my biggest change as a teacher, um, it's just still always kind of holds and it is. I feel like just knowing you and the work that we've done together, but the first time I was in Cris Tovani's classroom, um, I just, it was the first time I saw that there was really a different way to be in a classroom. And so over the years, building that, um, it's, cause, The curiosity as a teacher, like what I should be most excited about is to find out what kids are thinking. Yeah. It's not about what I'm doing, but it's about what kids are thinking, and that was Really kind of, I mean, so many years ago now, but an impetus to where I've landed now with three student protocol, with five promises, the things that like how to help teachers get to that place of knowing that it's not about me at the front of the room.

[00:22:54] Denise: I can't differentiate from there. I can't only when I'm out was due. I can't know them well enough to create a three student protocol from the front of the room. Like I has to get out with them. And so I've seen many teachers over the years who've like grown into that, and that's been amazing, but if you haven't, if you don't see it, it's hard to get it. Um, and I think that that made, it just was such a huge impact that now I've been able to then see from other teachers, like, okay, I see where that's happening for them as well. Um, so I'm really going way back to when I first ever worked with Cris, um, and just, you know, shout out to her as always. Always.

[00:23:32] Olivia: Well, you lift me up in that same way of just showing there's so many ways. To do this work that it's grounded in kids, and that's why I enjoy every time I get to be with you, Denise. So, um, thank you. I am so excited to have listeners learn about the Three Student Protocol and all of the layers and the way it benefits kids and teachers. So thank you for taking the time to have this conversation. Take care, friend. 

[00:23:55] Denise: Bye. Bye. 

[00:24:00] Olivia: Schoolutions: Coaching and Teaching Strategies is created, produced, and edited by me. Olivia Wahl. Thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music playing in the background. You can follow and listen to Schoolutions wherever you get your podcasts, or subscribe to never miss an episode and watch on YouTube. Thank you to my guest, Denise Goldin-Dubois. We're sharing how we can humanize our practice by focusing deeply on three specific students to improve instruction for all learners. Now, I'd love to hear from you. Send me an email at schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Let me know how your school or district is tracking observable facts, non-inferences that inform instructional planning and decision-making.

[00:24:49] Olivia: I'd also be interested to hear how you're meeting with other educators beyond your individual classroom planning. Tune in every Monday for the best research about coaching and teaching strategies you can apply right away to better the lives of the children in your care. Don't forget to stay tuned for my bonus episodes every Friday, where I'll share how I applied what I learned from the guests in schools that week.

[00:25:13] Olivia: See you then!