Schoolutions: Teaching Strategies to Strengthen School Culture, Empower Educators, & Inspire Student Growth

Teaching Fiercely: Justice, Joy, & Transformation with Kass Minor

• Olivia Wahl • Season 4 • Episode 17

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Join me in conversation with educator and author Kass Minor as we explore the intersection of justice, joy, and transformative teaching practices. Kass, the author of Teaching Fiercely: Spreading Joy and Justice in Our Schools, shares powerful insights about creating inclusive classroom environments that honor students' whole selves while empowering teachers to trust their professional judgment.

Key topics include:

➡️Why teacher agency is critical for meaningful educational transformation

➡️The importance of integrating foundational teaching frameworks with justice-oriented practices

➡️ How somatic literacy and body awareness impact teaching effectiveness

➡️Using six-word stories as a powerful assessment tool

➡️Creating a curriculum that responds to student needs and community context

Drawing from her experience as a New York City Teacher and her extensive work in educational development, Kass offers practical strategies for building more equitable and joyful learning spaces. This conversation bridges theory and practice, offering you concrete ways to create classrooms where both teachers and students can thrive.

Whether you're a classroom teacher, administrator, or education advocate, this episode provides valuable insights for reimagining education through a lens of justice, community, and collective action. 

Some Episode Mentions: 

Kass’s Recommendations & Published Works:

#TeachingFiercely #TeacherAgency #SocialJusticeEducation #EquitableEducation #CulturallyResponsiveTeaching #InclusiveEducation  #SomaticLearning #CommunityBasedLearning #TeacherLeadership #CurriculumDesign #StudentVoice #TeacherReflection #JoyfulLearning 

When coaches, teachers, administrators, and families work hand in hand, it fosters a school atmosphere where everyone is inspired and every student is fully engaged in their learning journey.

[00:00:00] Olivia: Hi there, I'm so happy you're here. Here's what you'll gain by listening to the very last second of this conversation with the wonderful Kass Minor. In this episode, Kass and I discuss justice-oriented community-based teaching that honors students' whole selves while empowering teachers to trust their professional judgment and somatic responses.

[00:00:23] Olivia: You'll learn why teacher agency is critical for transformative education. Why creating just classroom environments requires integrating foundational teaching frameworks. And why effective teaching requires being attuned to both body and mind. Stay with us. I'm so excited to have you join our conversation.

[00:00:47] Olivia: This is Schoolutions: Coaching and Teaching Strategies, the podcast that extends education beyond the classroom. A show that offers educators and caregivers strategies to try right away and ensure every student receives the inspiration and support they need to. I am Olivia Wahl and I am honored to welcome my guest today, the wonderfully inspiring Kass Minor.

[00:01:14] Olivia: I'm going to begin by naming some of the ways that Kass describes herself before I jump in to list the many reasons that I'm humbled to have Kass as a guest. Here we go. Kass describes herself first and foremost as a human teacher. She is a fierce, warm includer. A searching mind, soul-to-earth type of person, and an educator.

[00:01:41] Olivia: Now let me tell you a little bit about Kass and why you are going to love learning from her today. Kass is an inclusive educator who is deeply involved in local inquiry-based teacher research and school community development. Alongside partnerships with the Teachers College Inclusive Classrooms Project and the New York City Department of Education since 2005, she has worked as a teacher, staff developer, adjunct professor, speaker, and documentarian. Our conversation today will focus on Kass's book, I have it right here, Teaching Fiercely: Spreading Joy and Justice in Our Schools. Welcome Kass, I am so happy to have you as a guest today. 

[00:02:31] Kass: Of course, and thank you so much for having me. That was such a beautiful intro.

[00:02:36] Kass: Now I'm feeling like, I hope I live up to all of those expectations. It's wild to hear. You do. History, like. 

[00:02:43] Olivia: Yeah. 

[00:02:44] Kass: Yeah. 

[00:02:44] Olivia: Well, you're amazing. You're amazing. Well, you have been an inspiration to me for so long. And I remember being completely captivated. I was, uh, one of the NCTE, it was in Houston and I attended one of your sessions.

[00:03:00] Olivia: I haven’t told you this. I was sitting in the audience and you opened the session speaking about your track history (running) and you, there was a picture of you. And I remember you, you completely got my head, my heart, my gut, and started the conversation off, um, and then when I saw the book come out, I thought note to self, gotta be in conversation with Kass.

[00:03:27] Olivia: I've read the book and then we got in touch and this is such a high honor for me because you are an inspiration. This is not something that you just write about. This is something you live, it's hard work, it's hard, exhausting, loving, um, joyful work at the same time. So, I'm going to name an issue that, um, you captivate so beautifully, articulate right from the words of your book.

[00:04:02] Olivia: Here's the issue that you then speak to, and you're the solution, your book is the solution. “Social justice work in schools, generally speaking, has ignored the multifacetedness of listening to and honoring the communities educators serve and has a tendency to skirt the surface of literacy practices that are nuanced enough to reach myriad learners.”

[00:04:30] Olivia: So, here's the thing. Then I flip. This is all in your intro, so you get us right away, Kass. You get us right away. Then you pose some questions. And these questions, I sat there and I think it took a minute and I reread it. Here we go. “What is the pedagogy of justice? How is joy implicated in that pursuit? What does it mean to teach with our whole selves fiercely?” Mic drop. So let's jump in. Let's do it. Um, so something you said in the book is the importance of teacher agency and I wholeheartedly believe that student agency runs parallel to that. I love, um, Daniel Pink's work in Drive that speaks to agency, autonomy and mastery.

[00:05:26] Olivia: So why is teacher agency so important as a component when it comes to activating teaching fiercely? 

[00:05:36] Kass: Yeah. I mean, so teacher agency is really, you know, this ability for teachers to make their own decisions about what happens in the learning experience of people in their classrooms, right? Teachers among all of the people in the educational landscape spend the most time with students, right?

[00:05:59] Kass: And to me, it's always been really wild that teachers are put in this position of sort of like laborer, right? Like you are just the one who's executing the things, the tasks that other people are telling you to do because you know, you know what's best. Um, but when people who are spending the most time with kids, teachers are able to really develop these like relational acts, which I fundamentally believe is where learning lies, like learning of like change behavior through the relationships you developed with, with kids.

[00:06:32] Kass: Like that's where I operate. That's where a lot of educational research is tethered. 

[00:06:36] Olivia: Yes. 

[00:06:37] Kass: And so if you are operating from that stance, then you have to put this power in ‘ hands in order to assess what's happening with their kids, like the, the real and true needs, the kids that are in front of you right now, like, how are we assessing them in ways, however informal or formal, that are helping us understand how to design learning that makes sense for what they're demonstrating they need in this current moment, like in this current reality.

[00:07:09] Kass: And until we are able to have teachers who are really, um, positioned to, to operate through the lens of agency, then I think we will just continue to see these outcomes that have really been persistent for the past, you know, 400 years for students. 

[00:07:27] Olivia: Yeah. So what are your best, like, insights into schools? You are on the ground. You're in schools all the time. So what are the best insights you have of schools that are doing this work and teachers have that agency? 

[00:07:42] Kass: Yeah. So it's interesting. Like this is my puzzle. Um, in 2024, it's a much different puzzle than it was even like two years ago, three years ago, right? And so what I am noticing now that I, I haven't seen a school operate, uh, like from the school perspective in a way that is like all of these teachers know what they're doing, like, you know, teacher agency is what we believe in. There simply are not institutional conditions that have allowed for people to have that stance.

[00:08:15] Kass: What I am noticing are individual teachers, there's these pockets within schools where teachers are really embracing their edu-why like, why am I here? Like, who am I accountable to? Right? And teachers who are able to really adopt that stance and have enough support from either their colleagues, um, families that they're working with, or even, you know, people like me or my, my partner Cornelius, who are really like pouring into them and positioning them in a way where it's like, you do know a lot, but we have to be able to almost like sell this idea that like this knowledge, like these informal assessments are legitimate and are just as important as these other more standardized things that people are relying on as data points to show student growth. So long story short, I feel like the agency that is blossoming happens when people are able to like still hang on to their why, like, and really be accountable to students.

[00:09:18] Kass: And then the other thing that really matters for teacher agency to take root is this, uh, communal development. Like, you cannot do it alone. You really do have to be in community with other colleagues who are acting or, or have a similar stance. And then it's very helpful if you have, you know, either administrative support or coaching support or somebody who also believes in that, that is, has a little bit of a different position to play, to help you, I hate to use this word, but it's very real, like legitimize your practice in ways that are seen as powerful, like just as powerful as these other forms of an assessment that are coming from the outside entities.

[00:09:58] Olivia: I recently was watching a clip with Jon Haidt, whose book just came out, The Anxious Generation, and he was speaking about the, the idea of social media and phones, but he used the term collective action. And I often lean on collective efficacy. But that idea of collective action, like we need to have each other's backs and do this work collectively, but take action together. It moved me this morning at 4 30 when I was sipping on hot coffee. And that to me speaks of what we need more of in schools, like even pockets of collective action. I think there's endless possibility with that, you know. 

[00:10:42] Kass: I think so, too. And I think, you know, it's really important to for it to come from, you know, another thing that I read about is this community-up model, right? Like, so often, like, schools are informed by these policies that are created from, you know, either a local policy expert or on a federal level, whatever, and I think the ways that we see, like, positive classroom change, like on an individual, like granular level is like when people are coming together in a communal way within the school, like within the very localized spaces where they're coming together and they're noticing and they're deciding like, you know, what are we going to do differently?

[00:11:24] Kass: And then when they call me back together, I mean, It's literally like action research, right? Thing that we used to do at school that people are like, what's that? And it's just so old school, but it's like literally one of the most powerful things you could do if you really want to engage in any kind of transformation that is going to make a real and sustained difference.

[00:11:45] Kass: It's got to come from the people in the school and they have to be partnered with folks who are in the community. That are participating in school in order for it to really be meaningful. And I think we just have like all of these agents and schools who are just sort of like going through the motions because it's like, you know, we're fulfilling this idea of like, it's what we're supposed to do, or like it is now our job, but it's not. You know, I'm always pushing back on that. I'm like, no, like there's a difference between what you're assigned to do and what your work really is. 

[00:12:15] Olivia: Oh! Let's just pause there. “There's a difference between what you're assigned to do and what the work really is.” So here's, here's the thing. You also speak to lenses and the ways that we need to, to really take in and embrace multiple lenses to feel the pressure, you know, we don't change if we're comfortable and that lies in privilege. It also, I feel like there's this need for more advocacy and that idea of, you know, why do we need the pressure? So I'd love for you to speak to those lenses. Um, and then also the idea of how they can help us revise our mental models. Because this is the work that needs to happen. So let's, let's segue there. 

[00:13:04] Kass: A hundred percent. I mean, I think first and foremost, people - there are many people who understand that school is a place of contextualized injustice, right? Like, you are never in a school that does not have injustice baked in the walls by design, right? So we're talking about 400 years of school design for able-bodied, neurotypical, dominant culture, right?  And so that is like in the water. And so if you recognize that you are already like at a different place in terms of how you see what's happening in school. And the way, like the metaphor I've been using lately is like, there's a lot of folks who are in that privileged space that are able to kind of like see school through like a seven colors of the rainbow, like red, orange, yellow, green, green, blue, indigo, violet, right?

[00:13:58] Kass: Then there's other folks who have a very, very different orientation to school, like ancestrally, um, immediately, um, via a family member, or even just like in a very like current moment, right? Like these experiences happen. We know these happen, um, negative experiences happen disproportionately to folks from non-dominant cultures.

[00:14:18] Kass: So, you know, folks who are dis/abled, right? Like, um, folks who are Black, Indigenous, people of color, queer folks. Like, all of these different orientations, um, in people's identities matter for how they're able to see injustice. And so, oftentimes, like, there's a whole nother way of being in school, which is more like a school, like an infinite color spectrum, right, where you are seeing like the most vibrant red and you're seeing the most ugliest color of green, right? And so people who are oriented to school in that way, see all of these different injustices that are happening, but they also see, I should say, and they also see opportunities for building different kinds of experiences or places or structures within school where they can find a landing space for those other colors that are outside the seven-color rainbow.

[00:15:19] Kass: And maybe this is sounding really abstract right now, but I'm finding like it's a helpful way for people to know like, look, if you're seeing these seven colors cool, but what you also need to understand is that there are a thousand ways those colors get experienced, and depending on, you know, your history, your present moment, like the way, you know, you exist in the world, like that is going to dictate where you are in that understanding, and for those folks who are privileged and positioned in a way where they're, you know, can like, get the A right away, they can listen to the lecture, no problem, they can write two pages without thinking, um, they're going to have to do more work to understand where those injustices lie.

[00:16:03] Olivia: Yeah. So I, I also think of, um, something that you taught me in the book around reading our bodies, because this is a whole other layer, I think that the concept of somatic literacy, um, would you teach my listeners about that? Because I, it was, I thought profound. 

[00:16:22] Kass: Yeah, absolutely. And so I learned about Somatic Literacy during COVID. So I learned about it from a group of Indigenous practitioners that I was, uh, that I was working with, partnering with. Um, I'm continuing to learn with them, but primarily Cinnamon Kills First, who is mentioned, um, in the book. I, uh, I partnered with her to create the Community Up model. But we were learning all about somatic literacy when we were working to re indigenize our bodies and also, um, working to heal from whiteness.

[00:16:54] Kass: And so one of the things that we know about somatic literacy, it literally means, you know, somatic body literacy, like interpreting meaning from your body. All right. And so when I think about educators and schools or just, you know, people working in general in a capitalist system, we are rewarded for ignoring our physiological body alarms, right?

[00:17:17] Kass: So that's everything from like, when you have to go pee, like holding, holding it down, which is very common for teachers, right? Um, or like when you're tired, like staying up an extra hour to get the reading in or it's, you know, design like the bomb lesson plan, whatever it might be, we are constantly pushing past what our body is telling us, right?

[00:17:38] Kass: And so that also happens in terms of like, you know, ethics. And, and moral, like our moral position. Right? And so when we are pushed to do something where our body, our intuition and the way that we feel is telling us, Oh, I don't know about this. There's like an alarm. Sometimes we push past it because we want to do like the good job that we're supposed to do, that we're assigned. Right? And so when you do that over time, you are overriding your body's like natural inclinations and tell you what's good for you. 

[00:18:15] Olivia: Yeah. Scary. 

[00:18:16] Kass: So I think what we're noticing right now in 2024, we have like incredible teacher attrition rates, like we've never seen unprecedented, right? You have fewer people across the past 10 years entering the teaching profession. And you have people who are still in it, who desperately want out. And so I think that is sort of like this. amalgamation of lots of folks just pushing past like what their body is telling them. I mean, that's an adrenaline-based response. But in Western education, we don't really talk about it unless it’s a mindfulness activity. So, I mean, it's, it's wild. There's a whole ton of work on like embodied learning and somatic education. Um, it very much pushes back against a lot of Westernized practices. So, you know, I'm very committed to looking towards folks who operate more communally, and Indigenous practices often do. 

[00:19:08] Olivia: Yes. 

[00:19:09] Kass: And so basically, um, all this is to say, like, I am advocating that all educators pay more attention to their bodies, where they are helping kids pay attention to their bodies, and we're able to make more healthy decisions, not just what's good for us physically, but what's good for us, like, in the world. Um, and that is like a radical departure from how many people typically operate in school systems.

[00:19:29] Olivia: I was hoping you could share how that journey of being a teaching fellow in New York City helped lead you on that curriculum communal pathway, um, with listeners. 

[00:19:44] Kass: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, for those folks who engage like in an alternative teaching certification practice, I'm sure, I mean, there's lots of like overlap, right?

[00:19:54] Kass: But I think you know, the most important thing for me when I became a teacher in New York City was, like, I knew very, very quickly that all of the things I needed to learn were mostly going to be with the communities that I was serving. So not only was I a new teacher at this point, but I was also like new to Brooklyn and New York City. And as a teacher educator who's worked, you know, I've taught classes at Brooklyn College, Teachers College, et cetera, there is nothing more powerful that you will engage in as a practitioner outside of a school building like it's gotta be classroom-based. It has to be demonstrated in instructional methodology.

[00:20:38] Kass: It has to be rooted in like the real lived experiences of our current moment. So many decisions are based on research that is not baked into your community. It's based on research where you have, um, I don't think people understand how difficult it is to get like an IRB, like an International Review Board research pass, where you're really working deeply with students, right?

[00:21:06] Kass: The only place that's happening is schools, your classroom, your students. And so for me, because my teacher prep program was what it was, you know, transitional certification is very different than like spending two years fully in a teacher prep program. Um, I had to lean on my community. I've had to engage in action research if I wanted to know anything and my students weren't letting me have it like they like were not going to let me just stand up there and do what I thought was cool.

[00:21:39] Kass: Like they let pressure so much pressure, right? So it felt very lucky that my students held me accountable. The families held me accountable. I definitely felt like the instinctual calling a lot of folks like name that, you know, ancestral calling, like different teachers in my family, etc. But this idea that action research, that classroom-based instructional demonstration and iterative, iterative trial, like that's been the most meaningful part of my work and really thinking like building my intellectual teaching life was also another thread that was built in that work, um, with, with my community of people that I was working with in that first school I had.

[00:22:24] Olivia: I have many of the same concerns you do. And, um, I think so much about the teachers that feel this pressure to slog through the day-to-day. I hear it. I hear it from coaches that I'm supporting too, of like, well, I said, well, you know, we're running a learning lab and we're looking at after day one being in classrooms and I said, well, we have to gather all the student work and the exit tickets to see, you know, where we're going tomorrow. And it's like crickets because where they're going is what the lesson's telling them like, no, no, like, wait, pause. Nope. And so like, and it's not just the exit tickets that are in hand.

[00:23:07] Olivia: Yeah. That tells us a lot, but it's also watching, you know, reading the room and that's what like the, the work that you're speaking to, it's reading your room. It's also being in touch with the community, with the caregivers and so you can truly deeply know each of the children that you have the gift of hanging out with for a year, right? And, and so I love the idea, too, of the six-word stories. Will you just share what those are, cause I think they're amazing?

[00:23:40] Kass: I was participating in a workshop where the feedback, the, you know, sort of like the feedback form was just like, say, a six-word story about your experience. And I was like, this is such a great idea. And so basically, the six-word story is just like six words you can offer, or people can offer you too. To give you feedback on their learning experience. So with kids, it can be like, after a lesson, I use it all the time in workshops, like tell six words, tell six words about this learning experience for you.

[00:24:10] Kass: And sometimes, we’ll, just like do six peppered words. Sometimes it's like a sentence. Um, but what's really cool about it, if you're doing like a longitudinal experience, like, you know, you're meeting with teachers across the year, meeting with kids across the year. You collect these six words, like every, you know, every other week, every Friday, whatever.

[00:24:29] Kass: And you're able, like, it's a data point. Like, it's like a formative assessment, like data point to help you understanding, like your understanding of what people are getting out of what you have designed. And it's also such a low lift, right? Like, such a low lift, whether you're eight years old or 52. Like, everybody feels, typically, for the most part, feels very okay about writing six words about what they have experienced.

[00:24:59] Kass: And I'm telling you, it seems like, it seems like nothing, but like, the kinds of six-word stories I have received, like, are so telling, they're so loaded. And it, it's like such an awesome way to gauge, like, okay, this is what we can do next based on, like, this information that I have. And I am like, Always looking for ways to get, like, consistent, immediate, like, community feedback about what's going on with the learning. Right? Like, I don't want it to always be a quiz. I don't want it to be a 10-question survey. I, you know, it doesn't even have to be, like, raise your hand and tell me what happened, or even, like, just six words, folks. And it's really powerful. 

[00:25:42] Olivia: So, it's brilliant, it's powerful, it's brilliant, and you made me also lean on, okay, if I'm going to start doing this, cause you've totally inspired me, I was thinking it could be something I include on exit tickets, um, for feedback. And I also thought, well, wait, so I'm going to track them because I absolutely want to do that. And I thought, wait a second, so often we know when communication breaks down, is when there are different understandings or there's a break in terminology, right? Miscommunication. And so I thought, you know, I'm also going to track the, um, fluency or the frequency, not fluency, the frequency of the words that people are writing.

[00:26:26] Olivia: Because I want to know, like, if we're using a term over and over and over. Or a word, does everyone have an understanding around what that means to them? And then within our shared community. So that was another layer I wanted to add on how I'm going to use that. But like, come on, it's so, it is a low lift and it is a profound way to move forward in planning for students, planning for professional learning.

[00:26:53] Olivia: It's exciting. So thank you for that. 

[00:26:55] Kass: A hundred percent. And if you want to get fancy, I mean, folks who read the book or will read the book will see like, I include some examples there. I wish, um, we had the photos, but like people also, like, you could also like to have them include a photo and like do a six-word story along with a photo and then you also have like a visual reference. Um, what's going on as well.

[00:27:16] Olivia: Gorgeous. It could be beautiful. Even more beautiful. Um, so I want to think of the frameworks that you offer up to, since we're along that line of curriculum. Um, and what are the other, I would say, foundational understandings that you think, like, you, you have to have this in place to have that shared conversation and, and to really come at it with a more open mind.

[00:27:44] Kass: A hundred percent. I think, you know, as you were reading Teaching Fiercely, you can tell, like, one of the things that, like, gets my gullet is, like, when we're having, like, a conversation around creating a more just school environment without talking about like foundational understandings of teaching and learning. I think too often those things are separated when they cannot be. Like they are literally like intertwined and inseparable. And we are creating the kinds of just institutions that all kids deserve. And so I think first and foremost, like, again, like this is kind of old school, but honestly, like Understanding by Design, the work of Grant Wiggins is foundational, I think should be foundational for all people in that.

[00:28:31] Kass: You always should know what you're trying to do and where you are going with kids and their learning, like always. Always. And so, you know, I'm sure there are other frameworks that also like lend themselves to that sort of a, you know, way of thinking. But for me, Understanding by Design is very foundational.

[00:28:51] Kass: I, I use it still, like, whether I'm planning like a year-long, um, professional learning experience for teachers to develop their, you know, their equity and leadership. I'm using Understanding by Design. Me too. Like, if I'm planning a second-grade literacy intervention experience with a group of special education teachers, like, I'm using Understanding by Design as a framework for my thinking, right?

[00:29:17] Kass: What are the essential understandings? You know, what are the key terms and definitions I'm really hoping kids walk away with? Like, how does this fit into the bigger picture of what's relevant for kids to experience? And how is it aligned with whichever standards I am obligated to drive home? The other thing I will say that has also been foundational to my practice is like, you know, Gloria Ladson-Billings that has gone through so many different iterations, but you know, culturally relevant and sustaining pedagogy are also, for me, inextricable from the Understanding by Design work or any kind of social justice conversation you're going to have in a school building. I mean, starting from ju,p, you can't, you can design a beautiful UBD curriculum really over the summer. But if you're not thinking about how children or youth are interacting with each other and you, how they feel, what the affect is. And, and, and understanding like the cultural context of the mediums you are using to convey the information you have designed, like you have just written a really beautiful curriculum for no one. 

[00:30:24] Olivia: So I wanted to just pause because you said, you know, you lean on UBD so that as a teacher, you know where you're going. But my biggest fear is if we're not planning with that, the kids. How will they ever commit to, you know, outside of, like, actually being engaged in this hard work if they have no idea where it's going, how the day-to-day is a strand that's connecting to that and a bigger idea? And my happy moment around January was we're, we both live in New York state and the New York state, um, Department of Education put out the literacy briefs.

[00:31:07] Olivia: Yes, they're tied to the science of reading, but the, the main thing I'm thrilled about is that they were crafted by Dr. Nonie Lesaux and Katie Carr. And they do speak to the idea of the culturally sustaining practices, um, and that we really have to have that at the heart of every decision we're making.

[00:31:27] Olivia: So I'm glad at least New York state is going in the direction of saying, you know, whatever you're doing with curriculum, there are pieces, um, that have to be part of this. And we owe it to our children to make sure that we know where the work's going, uh, because they have to know if they're going to commit to it. So that's, it's huge. Um, I, I also so appreciate the all of the resources you offer in the book, um, the graphics are gorgeous. The tables are gorgeous. Your stories, um, bring us in, in a moment, you know, the book is it's hard. It's meaty. You don't have to read it in order. Um, it's a journey is what I'm going to say.

[00:32:14] Olivia: And I - every book before I have the gift of interviewing, um, the author, I read it at least twice and, uh, because I have to have it through my just digesting the first time and then it unpacking it. And so I've actually read the book three times because I had to just follow the journey myself um, and, and not feel pressure to jot questions that I wanted to ask you if I had the gift of being in conversation. And so I go back and one of the main pieces that is still lingering, months after I first read the book, is the idea of the three paths, and this, this is where I want to wrap our conversation and I'm hoping it's the first of many, but, you know, I, I, the three paths around, um, kids, justice, and curriculum design.I think it's such a beautiful way, um, to pause our conversation. So would you speak to that for listeners? 

[00:33:17] Kass: For sure. I mean, there's a full, you know, the, so the part that Livi's talking about is like this towards the end, right? Like creating a justice-oriented curriculum. Like, what does that mean? And so I spent a lot of time just like talking about, like, we got to know who, like, who are the kids that we are in this relationship with in our classrooms for a year.

[00:33:34] Kass: And so I, you know, and again, you know, earlier I talked about like teachers, Our closest with kids, but along this amount of time, how are we valuing the kinds of assessments that are happening in the classroom? Not even valuing them, like, It's not just us, like we're in this work, but also legitimizing them in the eyes of others who don't quite understand all of the intricacies of teaching and learning.

[00:33:55] Kass: And, and so there is a lot of different frameworks I have are just like experiences are, you know, call them activities, whatever you like, but ways of assessing kids to get the information that matters. Or how we are designing a curriculum that speaks to their curiosities and their questions and their wonderings in ways that are not outside, they're not some separate like social justice period. They're literally just like, this is what we're doing across our literacy experiences in, in the school day for this unit across the year. You know, and shout out to Vivian Maria Vasquez, who I know has a recent book out too, with I think Lester Laminack and Katie Kelly.

[00:34:36] Kass: She is amazing, but like, she wrote this book a long time ago, Critical Literacies for Young Children. And in that work, we're really spending a lot of time like being with kids, interacting with kids, interviewing kids, like assessing them in lots of different ways. And we take these buckets, right? And we think about what we have to teach. And we find like, how do we marry all of these things? And, you know, there's like a beautiful organizer in the, in the book that will help you along with that work. But yeah. Um, also, Livi, I just want to say about there's like these three paths to creating curriculum. And delivering curriculum in schools that I have noticed, um, that I have noticed patterns around in my work, right?

[00:35:20] Kass: You have like this very proactive space. Just very ideal, right? Like we want to spend like August really thinking about like, when are we teaching, who are our kids going to be like, what are our hopes and dreams for the school year and, you know, maybe we're doing like pre-assessments and we're getting like, uh, emails from their families or we have information from last year. And that's really beautiful work. Um, I will say that I don't find that happening a lot in schools just because of the times we're in and institutional constraints that exist, although there is definitely room and space for that. We have a responsive curriculum, which I feel like people are best positioned to engage in that work.

[00:35:59] Kass: So that is really like doing a lot of withness work with the kids, like I am, I'm partnering with you. We're creating, we're co-creating this experience together. Like I am not the knower, like I have the instructional experience, but I'm not the knower in the room. Like we know together, I'm going to work with you to figure out what this community of learners can be.

[00:36:22] Kass: And then finally there is the reactive approach, which I feel like unfortunately there are many people who are in that space. And it's really too bad because it just fuels the fire of injustice and that we are reacting to these negative and harmful experiences that are happening to kids. Whether it be, um, racist acts, gender and violence, you see a lot of like intellectual gender violence in schools that is like, um, the hidden curriculum and a lot of work could have a whole nother podcast about that.

[00:36:56] Kass: And then we find people sort of like scurrying to repair the harm that happens when kids have these experiences, or we have like these structures in schools that, that don't make way, right? We don't have all of that spectrum in place to build possibility, to mitigate the kinds of harm that girls experience in math and science, or, um, you know, like boys experience, or kids who identify as boys when they cry in class. Like there's so many different things that are happening in schools that are also part of our work in creating curriculum. That we will not be able to do unless we are partnering with the children in front of us as people who have like a great amount to offer us when we are developing our community in classrooms.

[00:37:48] Olivia: So with having guests name an educator, I'm sure it's going to be hard to name just one, um, but name some educators that have rocked their world and inspired them. Would you share with listeners? 

[00:38:00] Kass: Absolutely. And this is one of my, I think this is going to be my favorite part. So for me, it's like the educators in the here and now who are still in schools in 2024 in spite of all of these like institutional constraints. And so the person I want to name is Leilani Mabrey. She is a middle school teacher in downtown Brooklyn. And I met her when she was teaching math. And now she is, um, fills more of a sort of a restorative justice coordinator role, you know, I think that's what her role is on paper. But, um, one of the things that are the, one of the many things that I love about Leilani is that she's so in tune with children, children who are 12 and 13 and 14 years old. And there's something, there's nothing sexy about doing restorative justice work. If you are doing it in a way that is like true and real, right? And so Leilani just really embodies this idea that like middle school students are children and they need lots of nurturing and love and learning and support in very similar ways that very young people, very like young students do.

[00:39:21] Kass: I just see her loving students in so many different ways. Um, loving students when the system doesn't necessarily love them back. Like it's so calming and hopeful for me to know that people like Leilani are still in our schools because they're able to manifest this experience for students to help them, I mean, minimally like regulate themselves in a way that allows them to learn, but doing so in a way that makes them feel so like, like they matter. Like they seem they're like, they feel so warm and safe with her. And she's just, I mean, she's all of that and like so many more things, it's just like this powerful presence in person. I just love being near. Um, so she is like, when I think about inspiration, like she has like a shining light and like a North star for me when I think about like how I want to be, especially with kids in school.

[00:40:18] Olivia: Yeah. So I think you, you know, you just captured what gets me at my heart, um, Kass, it’s that, it's that collective and, uh, another layer of how you keep me motivated and you don't even know you're doing it. I get so excited when I see a blog post come out from you. I know I, I love your blog and it's like a little dose. I, they come just when I need them. So I, I do want to put it on, um, listener's radar that the two posts that I actually, I have them printed. I go back to them. They're tattered. Um, but I love your post from this past December, Dark Winters and Warm Light: Make your (edu)wishes come true.And you speak to a moment, um, where your family was, um, revisiting Never Ending Story and seeing it through the light.

[00:41:13] Olivia: And I think it's hard for us as educators to not always have that running narrative in our mind of how everything in life that we're experiencing is connected, um, to our life as an educator. And that idea of the nothingness and how we have to be so kind and careful to not let that take over our soul. And there's something you say in the blog, um, “However, the state of our schools and our world begs us to ask ourselves and one another, what are we bearing witness to in classrooms, in meeting spaces, in the halls of schools? What are we bearing witness to in our streets, in our neighborhoods, in our country, in our world?”

[00:41:57] Olivia: And I remember I read it really early in the morning. It makes me, well up now, um, and I've, I, I paused. I thought, oh, you know, There's so much. It's so heavy. And then I remembered, um, page five. Of your book, um, and this is where listeners, I won't leave you with me feeling sad. Um, because I want you to feel the joy and then you, you're, you're like, nope, I'm going to sweep you up and I'm going to give you a hug and this gorgeous image of the Structured Generator of Hope’s, Energy Force.

[00:42:32] Olivia: Like, come on, Kass. It's so freaking beautiful. And the Structured Generator of Hope on page 5 of your book, but it's also in this blog. And if I had my own classroom, I would have this image printed and every moment where I started to feel that nothingness, that, um, that just creeping in of questioning what I believe to be true. I would look and I would look at the future goodness and I would, I would keep myself there in joy, justice, agency. So I just, your blog, you know, I don't know if you know how much that also means to me as a person in this work, but it does. And teachers, you've got to check out, or caregivers, everyone, you've got to check out that Structured Generator of Hope.

[00:43:24] Olivia: Um, I wanted to end with a quote from page 25 because it moved me and I think it will end and capture all of this conversation. Um, and this, these are your words. “I'm about to write the long story of my joy, but in short. I am obsessed with teaching and learning in ways that support kids feeling like their whole human selves in the place we call school. That is, the undercurrent that has enabled me to function in school, grow its third spaces, as well as find joy that has been tucked along and hidden away in the corners of schools I've worked in.” Kass, what a gift you are to this world, to the field of education, and please keep inspiring us, keep writing, keep doing this hard work. Uh, because you make it safer and easier for us to, to do it ourselves. So thank you for everything, Kass.

[00:44:23] Kass: Thank you so much. Thank you for this conversation. Thank you. Also, um, you know, I believe in the collective, and we are this constellation of little stars everywhere in school, and I learned about this word, um, asterism, right? Like, an asterism is a collection of stars, it's not necessarily like a constellation, but we're connected, and it gives me, um, it fuels my hope, because I too am, you know, I'm just as, um, susceptible to that nothingness that everyone else is. Uh, so I thank you, Livi, for having this conversation, this podcast, and also just being a ray of light, um, for us all to kind of like reach and, you know, just engage in the messiness. It can be really beautiful that we don't allow ourselves to engage in. So thank you. Thank you so much.

[00:45:11] Olivia: Thank you, Kass. Take good care. Schoolutions: Coaching and Teaching Strategies is created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music playing in the background. You can follow and listen to Schoolutions wherever you get your podcasts. Or subscribe to never miss an episode and watch on YouTube. Thank you to my guest, Kass Minor, for sharing how we can reimagine justice-oriented, community-based teaching that honors students' whole selves while empowering teachers. Now, I'd love to hear from you. Send me an email at schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Let me know how your school or district honors teacher's agency and mindfulness at the same time.

[00:46:01] Olivia: Tune in every Monday for the best research-backed about coaching and teaching strategies you can apply right away to better the lives of the children in your care. And stay tuned for my bonus episodes every Friday, where I'll share how I applied what I learned from the guests in schools that week. See you then.

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Olivia Wahl

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