Educational Teams Bridging School and Family Communication with Leah Mermelstein and Dr. Jennifer Gioia

In this episode, I sit down with literacy expert Leah Mermelstein and school neuropsychologist Dr. Jennifer Gioia to explore how educators can better support students who are "stuck" in their learning journey. Together, we unpack how schools can build effective support systems directly into their educational framework through three core elements: dedicated time for team dialogue, appropriate resources and curriculum, and shared knowledge of research-based practices.

The conversation delves into practical strategies for:

➡️breaking down educational silos 
➡️fostering family-school collaboration 
➡️ensuring equitable student support

Leah brings insights from literacy consulting and tutoring, while Jen shares perspectives on neuropsychological evaluation and empowering families with educational knowledge.

Join us for actionable strategies to create unified teams that support every student's learning journey while addressing both individual needs and systemic barriers.

Mentions: 

• S1E10: "We-Do" Writing: A Solution for Shaky Independence
• S2 E35: It's Time to Bend Curriculum & Create Our Own Integrated Units of Study
• Julie Wright - What’s Our Response
• New Jersey’s Intervention and Referral Services Committee (I&RS Committee)
• Orthographic mapping
• Sounds-Write: First Rate Phonics
• Cognitive load theory and individual differences
• With Speech to Teachers, Harris Waded into a Fiery Education Debate
• Students aren’t benefiting much from tutoring, one new study shows
• Ari Gerzon-Kessler - On the Same Team
• Making the Most of Team Time in Middle School
• LMC Literacy Toolkits

When coaches, teachers, administrators, and families work hand in hand, it fosters a school atmosphere where everyone is inspired and every student is fully engaged in their learning journey.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Olivia: Hi there. I'm so happy you're here. Here's what you'll gain by listening to the very last second of this conversation with Leah Mermelstein and Dr. Jennifer Gioia. In this episode, Leah, Jen, and I explore how educators, specialists, and caregivers can work together as a unified team to support students who are stuck in their learning journey.

[00:00:22] Olivia: You'll learn why success requires building support directly into the educational system through three core elements. Why true collaboration means breaking down silos between different educational settings. And why equitable student support requires addressing both individual needs and systemic barriers.

[00:00:43] Olivia: Stay with us. I'm so happy to have you join our conversation. This is Schoolutions: Coaching and Teaching Strategies, the podcast that extends education beyond the classroom. A show that offers educators and caregivers strategies to try right away and ensure every student receives the inspiration and support they need to thrive.

[00:01:08] Olivia: I am Olivia Wahl and I am happy to welcome my guests today, Leah Mermelstein has already been a guest on two episodes, S1E10, S2E35. And Dr. Jen Gioia is a wonderful human that is a friend and colleague of Leah's that I'm glad to have them in partnership and in conversation today.

[00:01:33] Olivia: Let me tell you a little bit about both of them, if you haven't already met them. Uh, Leah Mermelstein is a literacy thought leader, a published author, and a passionate writing, reading, and language development authority. She has dedicated 25 years of her life to the world of education. She is also a mom to a sixth-grade daughter, and in her spare time, which I don't know how, Leah, how you have any spare time, but you have been tutoring children that are stuck in some way.

[00:02:03] Olivia: Dr. Jen Gioia is a school neuropsychologist. She provides a variety of evaluations. And this knocked my socks off, in 2021, became a diplomat to the American Board of School Neuropsychology. Jen is also a mom to a sixth-grade daughter. Um, I am honored to welcome you both. I am excited for this conversation.

[00:02:26] Olivia: The issue that I'm excited to talk about today; and you both have so many strategies to offer not just coaches, teachers, and administrators, but also caregivers. So we're, we're hitting every audience member that tunes into this podcast. Uh, really, you know, after COVID and you mentioned it, we started hearing more and more about kids being stuck or falling back. Well, so that's a, it's a problem, but we also have a huge equity gap that has grown exponentially. It's always been there, but Leah, you know, when you mentioned tutoring, my trepidation with tutoring is it just grows the haves and have-nots. And so I know both of you are a solution to this issue because of your collaboration.

[00:03:16] Olivia: You see that we have to have a team effort, and you're going to offer strategies for nurturing that team today. But it's also, you know, how can we redefine the term stuck? How can we offer support and services to all children who need it and bridge that equity barrier? So I'm excited to jump in, Jen, you're going to kick us off. Um, let's talk the word stuck. We need a shared definition and you see the word stuck in different ways, which I appreciate. So how do you define it and, um, you know, what are different ways kids may be stuck? 

[00:03:55] Jen: Sure. No, it, it, it's definitely something that comes to, um, my attention often, um, in the practice I work at doing evaluation. Oftentimes, families will come in where, you know, they will share concerns that the school and their own concerns are not, they're not on the same page, families and schools are not always on the same page about concerns about their children, um, academically, um, or even socially, emotionally, um, and so it causes some, some difficulty where, um, you know, a child might be, you know, just below average or, um, you know, not so significantly below where a lot of times, um, families and schools will not be on the same page or will not look at those weaknesses in the same way.

[00:04:44] Jen: I also find that kids tend to be stuck, um, when some of these kids who have gone through elementary school and they've been fine and, um, you know, getting good grades, but now they hit middle school and now they are dealing with a lot of difference. complexities in the middle school world, um, you know, different classes, different teachers having to, you know, really be organized.

[00:05:11] Jen: And then some of those weaknesses really come to fruition at that point. And now I have a lot of families that come in and say, Hey, my kid’s now in middle school and now they're really struggling. What can I do? And the last, the last way that I feel like kids get stuck is at the school level. So I have a lot of kids that come in, um, who are high achievers, who are super bright, you know, involved in everything possible, but now they're having trouble keeping focused, um, trouble managing their anxieties, um, and they get stuck, you know, despite all of these beautiful strengths that they have, um, now they have, they're facing some roadblocks in their academic career. So those are three ways where I kind of look at that. The idea of being stuck.

[00:05:57] Olivia: Jen, may I want to ask you a follow up, because it just occurred to me, you do sit in on a lot of meetings that are about kids. Do you do anything strategy-wise, proactively, before everyone is around the table to ensure that people are kind of calibrated around what they're going to hear about the child, whether it's a caregiver, a teacher, a support provider? 

[00:06:25] Jen: So, in my role as an evaluator, I tend to be at the meetings after the evaluations are done, um, to go over the reports and whatnot. Um, that would be lovely to be part of the conversations beforehand. But it doesn't always happen so much. When I used, when I worked in the school as a child study team member as a school psych, we would have those meetings beforehand and whatnot and try to figure out proactively what we could do for the child before even going through an eval. But private practice tends to be a little different, um, but I would love to, to be able to do that. It's a great point.

[00:07:03] Olivia: Yeah. I'm just thinking like, you know, as a, as a caregiver, I would feel defensive sometimes if I'm walking into a meeting and hearing that my child has a label perhaps, or, you know, the word stuck doesn't have an awesome connotation. Let's face it. It doesn't feel - it's the difference between struggling and striving. Struggling feels like I'm stuck. Striving feels like I'm reaching towards something. So it's, it's the language we use that we have to be so careful about. So then I'm thinking, Leah, if you know, we're at this table, we have identified patterns that, you know, we're seeing, um, you have the gorgeous notion of that broad brushstroke, right? And so. You can see these patterns, not just district-wide, but you, you can see it nationwide, which is amazing or worldwide really for you. Um, so how do you push that idea of changing patterns as a team? You, you two are both in partnership all the time. And then a follow up question to that is. in your tutoring work, um, how do you ensure equity? Because that is something that's always on my mind.  

[00:08:14] Leah: I'm going to start with that first one in terms of thinking about this at the district-level and kind of the work that I do as a literacy consultant. So first of all, one of the things I believe is that every child, regardless of they've been evaluated, should have a team of people behind them, every child. And what I try and do in my work is, um, because I think it's, um, in order for every student to thrive, literacy support needs to be baked into the educational system. And it needs to be a team effort because each team member brings their own unique talents and or their specific knowledge of that child who's stuck. So in my experience, baking it into the system starts at the leadership level. And so when I'm partnering with schools, I dialogue with leaders around three core questions. So question number one is, is there time for the team of any child, not just the ones who are having an evaluation, to dialogue?

[00:09:16] Leah: And if there's not, I help them brainstorm ways to get that time baked into the system. And I'm going to circle back to something that Jen mentioned to think about why time matters so much. Jen said that in her, in her practice, she often has situations where the families in school are not on the same page. They're not seeing the same things. So as a consultant, as a tutor, and as a mom, I believe we can have a bigger impact on individual children if there was time baked into the system for longer dialogue between families and teachers way before there's even a formal evaluation. 

[00:09:52] Jen: Right. 

[00:09:53] Leah: Probing questions such as like, tell me more about why you feel that way. What have you seen that makes you concerned? Those probing questions, they open up a professional dialogue between the home and the school where each can learn from the other. And you know, Olivia, there's other kinds of time that could be baked into it as well. Time for learning labs around children and even rather than saying children who are stuck, teachers who are stuck with children.

[00:10:18] Leah: Let's, you know, because, um, and time for teaching. And the other thing Jen and I've been talking about - time for teachers to read the evaluation. That someone like Jen creates, um, it's just, you know, having that, those details really helps us. That, that's number one. And of course, some teachers take the time to do all those things, but if it's not baked into the system, it will be inconsistent.

[00:10:43] Olivia: Yes. So, but Leah, you know, it's interesting. I was talking to Julie Wright yesterday. She wrote the book. What's Our Response? She's brilliant. And our conversation was about whether coaches should be at the table when there's a data meeting or, or any meeting. And some districts I'm serving are on the fence, like coaches already have enough they've got to do; they definitely shouldn't be facilitating. But what you just said, again resonates with me because the idea of a coach being the bridge between, um, the patterns they're hearing and being able to support the teacher to implement in a coaching cycle or learning lab that supports for not just one child at the table, but if there's a pattern that coach needs to be part of the team, right? Because they, they see the grade level, they see the building not, I'm sorry to interrupt your three, but it's number two friend. Um, and so, you know.

[00:11:38] Leah: And just quickly, I want to say about that is that my experiences in schools have shown me if we have these dialogues early on, we can avoid a lot of the problems and we can unstick children much faster.

[00:11:50] Olivia: So true. Yeah. 

[00:11:51] Leah: So, so number two, I'd say, are there resources, are there people and curriculum available so that when students are stuck, there are clear cut ways baked, baked into the system take action. So I'm going to share a recent tutoring story. Which I think bridges both of your questions. So a student I'm tutoring had someone like Jen carefully notice all the details of his learning story. Then there was a dialogue between the school and the family and I was lucky enough to join that dialogue. And through that dialogue, the team made a decision to give this student a very particular kind of instruction. Every single day in small group, the school was able to make this decision because they had the people and this particular curriculum in place. And so the people and this curriculum were really part of the literacy solution for this child. And I'm going to be tutoring him less now because of this. 

[00:12:43] Olivia: That’s fascinating. So the curriculum is even part of the team. Yes. Right? Like using it. Yeah. That's awesome. 

[00:12:49] Leah: Now this, this, this little boy is going to have more time to be outside and play with his friends. Rather than sitting with me in a tutoring session because his needs are being met in school. 

[00:12:57] Olivia: That's huge. That's huge. 

[00:13:00] Leah: And I think the other thing I'm going to try and do is make sure that my work compliment rather than competes with what's happening at school. So I'm in conversation with that teacher. Yeah. 

[00:13:11] Olivia: Yeah. Leah, it's interesting too. When I was working with a school district, uh, Dr. Beth Swenson was also supporting and serving the district and she said something that I've never forgotten. She was talking about students, um, that have IEPs or 504s, but it's really any child. And she was saying, why do we create so many unnecessary cobwebs for children that they have to clear? Like, why are we not talking? She was using the example of, um, word walls or the way the letter strands in classrooms and the anchor visual that goes with it. She goes, I am, I can walk into one school building and just in one grade level, different teachers have different alphabet strands up with different visual cues.

[00:13:57] Olivia: She goes, you know, why are we doing this to kids? And so I think there's also a responsibility when it comes to how the school chooses to commit to different curricula options. That there's an understanding that we do this for children to have clarity, right? And then we can convey to their caregivers. We can bring brilliant consultants in like you, Leah, to support us with our literacy journey. Jen, I'm interested to know from you, what patterns are you finding? What trends are you finding that you're supporting caregivers, teachers, coaches, and children with? 

[00:14:33] Jen: Sure. So I always try to empower families I work with just knowledge, knowledge about the school systems and policies and, um, you know, a lot of the work is with special education and how to navigate the child study team process because it's, it's a pretty complex process. And it's surprising to me that so many families do not know how to go through it but also being knowledgeable about general education and the policies and procedures and, and that we have involved there. So me and Leah were just talking the other day and I had, um, talked to her about, we were talking about things going on and I said, you Well, every school district has an I&RS committee, and she said, what's an I&RS committee?

[00:15:19] Jen: It's an intervention and referral services committee that's done, that's provided through general education. Every public school has one, to my knowledge. It's just, it's another way to catch kids who are having difficulties, um, you know, just kind of brainstorming ideas with other professionals in the building. But it's, it's those types of things that families are not always so in the know about. That's what they try to help. Um, you know, talk to them, teach them about, um, I think also being able to have real conversations with the kids that I work with, you know, if they're mature enough to do so, or old enough, um, to really talk about the diagnosis, to talk about their strengths and weaknesses and what that may mean for them in, in school, um, because it's their academic career regardless of their path.

[00:16:07] Jen: And I really try to do, as much as I can to really empower them with the knowledge that I, that I get from uh, the evaluations and what they can really do with it, um, to help themselves and advocate for themselves. Um, and I think I also try to really try to really take the perspective of each client that I work with, each family that I work with or the school district in and of itself, you know, um, where, where are they coming from? Every case is different. Every family I work with is different. And where, you know, um, just trying to understand where they're coming from that, um, you know, why are they going through this process or why are they hesitant to go through this process? What are, what are some of those, um, boundaries there? And, um, so I really try to take, really try to get them, get to understand them on a more emotional level. I appreciate that.

[00:16:58] Olivia: And I really love the idea of children being a part of the conversation. Um, I, I think, you know, kids often are on the outside of these bigger decisions that are being made for them, um, and often with good intent. But, you know, I know children that don't want to get pullout services because of othering and they feel like, what am I missing in the classroom to get this? So the idea, let's bring it back to the team strategy. You know, how is it that we're ensuring children are getting served and supported in the classroom setting and an inclusive setting as often as possible? Because children all benefit from each other. Every child has strengths that they can learn and share in a classroom. And so, you know, Leah, I've been following you always on social always. But, you know, over the last few years, I've seen a shift. And to something that I think you're really brave and I appreciate your, um, your centrist approach because, you know, you have to deal with some flack I've noticed on social at times.

[00:18:10] Olivia: And something that you shared was around tutoring and the possibilities and the response was interesting because people are like, well, tutoring's elitist, you know, how do you ensure it's equitable? And, and so I first want to call out or give you a shout out for always bringing the dialogue and discourse on social in particular back to research what it is saying and what it's not saying.

[00:18:38] Olivia: You hear and you listen to everyone's perspective, whether they agree or disagree with you. This is what we all need to be doing, hint, hint. And, um, you know, I, I think first, I'm pretty sure you shared that there's some type of grant that happened in Bergen County, if I'm not mistaken, to support tutoring. So I wanted to have you just speak to that a little bit. And then what is research saying and what is it not saying about reading and writing instruction these days? 

[00:19:09] Leah: Well, it's interesting. I'm going to talk a little bit about the grant, because, um, what I I just saw another article, which I will stick in the show notes because what this article talks about is that a lot of the research is showing that these big grants for tutoring are not having that the positive impact that they, that, that they should be having. And so that conversation was that was happening on social media was rightfully happening. But what this article does is it talks about before you jump that getting the grant money is the first step. And the next step is the team coming together to problem solve all the things that could go wrong, and then make sure they don't go wrong.

[00:19:54] Leah: So I'm going to definitely give you that. And so I'd say, I'd say yes, every potential comes with problems. And we either can be fearful of the problems and not, not make a change. Or dive into the problems and make something amazing, which is where I'm always going to go for. And I'm always going to speak to the research and I'm, thank you so much for your compliment because it does feel like, um, it does feel scary all the time. And I just, I try so hard to approach the research conversation with an open mind and an open heart. And I think it's important to think about what research is saying. And what it's not saying. So I'm just going to focus on two core pieces of research that I think are important for the whole team to, to, to, to know about, and I think that I talk about this research with leaders as well, because, um, we, we need time to have dialogue.

[00:20:48] Leah: We need resources like people in curriculum, but we also need knowledge. And we need research-based knowledge. The first thing is something that's called orthographic mapping. And orthographic mapping was first described by Linnea Ehri, and it's a process that happens through your, in your brain. It was discovered through brain scans that helps you automatize reading and writing, which is what we want. We want every single child to decode and encode easily and automatically. Yes. And so there are three parts to orthographic mapping, and I'll just quickly show those three parts through the word cat. So in order to be able to read and write cat easily and automatically, you have to know the spellings of the sounds in cat.

[00:21:33] Leah: So you need to know that /c/ is spelled with a “c” that /a/ is spelled with an “a” and /t/ is spelled with a “t.” I always start with sound because we are, most of us naturally are already speaking. We can attach the sounds that we say to the new craft that we're learning. So that's number one. Number two, I need to be able to blend, I need to be able to push those sounds together to read cat. But I also need to be able to segment, I need to be able to pull those parts, those sounds apart. to write cat. And so the third thing is I need to know what a cat is, that vocabulary. And so in orthographic mapping, that process that happens in your brain, um, happens, helps kids to read and write automatically.

[00:22:20] Leah: What this process helps us to understand is that virtually, here's the equity part for me, virtually every human can become unstuck when it comes to learning to read easily and automatically. The difference is some kids have to go through that orthographic process many, many times before it's automatized. So the research is vital because it helps the entire team understand what and how to work with students. If decoding and encoding are not automatic, then we want to do everything we can in school and at home, possibly tutoring, but in the dreamiest worlds, it'd be happening at school facilitate those three parts of the orthographic mapping process.

[00:23:02] Leah: I love that example. Thank you for taking us through. What's the, what's the other? The second one is Sweller's Cognitive Load Theory. And so this is a well-researched idea that in a nutshell says, and we can all attest to this in our own life, when we are attending to too many things at once, nothing goes into our long-term memory. Nothing. It's a reminder to the team that we need to artfully plan our lessons and our conversations with our class, with our group, with one on one, so that we present the just right amount of new information. And so to me, those are the two most important research things. Every parent, every teacher, every district administrate, anybody on the team should know and understand.

[00:23:52] Olivia: Ah, beautiful. That was so helpful. Um, so now I have a strategy for orthographic mapping with a concrete example. Thank you, friend. And then that idea of, you know, research always having our back. Leah, with us being consultants that travel the country, it's so critical that when we leave a building, when we step out of a district, it's not Leah Mermelstein said it's all of the researchers we were learning alongside Leah as a facilitator. And these are the researchers that have our back. And so I'm always grateful research that I can have it when I'm in conversation with others. Um, and that's the brilliance of you on social because you're always sharing these articles that I'm saving, saving, saving. Um, so, and then I, I want to shift a little bit because.

[00:24:47] Olivia: I worry so much about the silos, right? And so, you know, if we're saying we need to be on the same team, I worry about just even in the classroom. If we look at all of the different subjects, especially in the elementary world, Uh, but Jen, thinking of middle and high school as well, that each period a child is moving throughout could be a silo that is facilitated by a teacher that may not be communicating with other teachers on that team. I do want to give a shout-out, um, both of my boys have attended the same middle school. Um, I'm in Ithaca, New York, and they've both attended Boynton Middle School, uh, and something that that middle school does that is brilliant there each day to have kids on two different teams, but each team works in tandem to have group conversations about the children.

[00:25:49] Olivia: I actually wrote an article when Ben was in middle school to highlight the work of his sixth-grade team of teachers. I forgot I wrote that I have to go back. And so when they reach out to a caregiver, there's one person designated on the team. But when the caregiver’s meeting with that group, it's every single teacher on the team, and they all offer assets to what they're noticing about your student in science and E.L.A. and math and social studies. Um, sometimes the, uh, outside, like a PE teacher will be there, uh, the school counselor is always there. It was, it's amazing to me and a powerful because we know kids show up in different ways for different teachers in different contexts. So if we're talking about un siloing Leah, what does that mean to you in this conversation of teamwork?

[00:26:44] Leah: Well, you know, I, the three words that come into my mind is that it goes back to what we were talking about in terms of, of, um, like at the big level, at the systematic level, time to dialogue, time to dialogue, the resources, the people and the curriculum to put that dialogue into action and the knowledge that, that all, everyone on the team deserves to have this knowledge. You know, like last year I, um, or maybe two years ago, I think I remember I contacted you because I can fall into this too - like I'm like, I know, I know what I need to know. Three years ago I got, um, trained in Sounds Right. And I, and, and to use one of your words, it rocked my world. I feel so much more confident to give kids that precise instruction that they need. And so I think it's back to those three things. And, and again, I think it comes at the leadership level. If you want to make time resources and knowledge. 

[00:27:49] Olivia: Yeah. Leah, my dance card was full that summer and it's one of my biggest regrets. I did not take that training with you. I'm like, Oh, because you, you are, you're just so smart. And I, oh, wow - missed opportunity. Missed opportunity. I'll send you the link. Maybe you can, maybe you'll do it in the next few years, but it's not going to be as fun without you. I know like it would have been great. I just, I didn't have the capacity. Oh, well. Um, um, Jen so then let's shift to the idea of talking across aisles because I want to just say one of the most important things in my life are my friends that are fellow caregivers, that I can have completely open non-judgy conversations with my friends, um, to say like, I, I am stuck. Or is this normal? Is this happening in your house too? You can just to be able to connect. And so I want to just name, you know, that this relationship you have with Leah is sacred and invaluable because you're not just professional colleagues, but your mom friends, right? So, Jen, then for us, you know, what other strategies do you have for helping connect across the aisles when we're in a school setting or for caregivers, teachers, administrators, all of us? 

[00:29:14] Jen: I mean, I think it goes back to, you know, having those individual conversations, you know, between parents and families and learning from each other, like Leah and I always do. And even taking the children as, as individuals, if, if we're given the opportunity to learn about their strengths and weaknesses. Um, developing, I mean, I would love to see, you know, there's some districts that have, um, these study skill type of classes, these executive functioning type of classes where they really help to develop one's, you know, executive functioning skills, organization, um, attempts to task and all of those type of thing, um, really helping to, to kind of bridge that gap between individual needs and, and even helping the district in general, just kind of develop these wonderful programs that would help. 

[00:30:09] Olivia: Well, and I want to put a book on both of your radar too, I would say Ari Gerzon-Kessler. He wrote a book called On the Same Team. It has won so many awards. It is magnificent.  And he created a model, um, called FET Teams, F-E-T Teams. I've got to give him the shout out. And so what those teams include it's Families and Educators Together. And he gives an explicit structure for how you can incorporate these teams, um, outside of the school day. Um, so, and within, but it's, it's this beautiful notion of we are a team. And it's the insights that the caregivers can offer, um, of what their children love that the kids may not feel comfy necessarily yet to share. Not all children are, you know, um, extroverts and want everyone to know about themselves. And that's always been fascinating to me. So Jen, would you share with us, an, inspiring educator from your life?

[00:31:12] Jen: Sure. Um, so I think of two people, um, when I think of. being inspired. One is my daughter's second-grade teacher, Ms. Bablionia, right here from Hoboken School District. It was right after COVID that my daughter was placed with Ms. Bablionia and despite all of the difficulties during that time and hardships that we were facing, Ms. B really got to know my daughter and the other kids in the class on such an individual role basis and, um, our Leah's daughter was in that class as well. And, um, so she was just a phenomenal, phenomenal teacher and, um, someone else also from the Hoboken School District who I've had the pleasure of working with for many, many years, um, Dr. Yesenia Flores, who just, again, takes the time, um, to get to know all of her students and always refers to them, um, as her family. And I just find that re inspirational and, you know, having just being able to know each of these kids on such an intimate level is amazing. 

[00:32:16] Olivia: Well, that's lovely. Uh, Leah, how about you?

[00:32:19] Leah: Oh, I'm going to keep it in the Hoboken community and not to embarrass Jen too much, I'd choose Jen for this conversation. So sweet. So my main job, you know, is to, is to, um, partner with school districts to create change. And because of this, and I'm sure you know this too, Olivia, we're focused on the big picture, the district, the school, the community. The teacher, the class I'm working in and making an impact in school requires me to keep that big picture in mind. But when I met Jen four years ago through our dollars, our dollars are actually besties. We began having lots of conversations about education and I was blown away by her attention to details. I mean, just blown away what she saw, what she heard, what's beneath the surface. Not only was it the details, but her ability to bridge those details into written advice on the exact type of instruction that the student needed to succeed, um, to become unstuck. And I'm, I'm inspired by her because her advice is always clear, concise, deliberate, and oh my gosh, so kind.

[00:33:30] Leah: And seriously, it was Jen that led me to tutoring because I was super curious. And what I've learned now, kind of putting it in here, is that how impactful we can be. As leaders to dive deep into the small details of a child's literacy journey, and then connect that to the big picture of, of systemic change in district.

[00:33:50] Olivia: Um, both of you are a gift to education, Leah, your toolkits are incredible. So I want to make sure to put a link to those in the show notes. It's something you've worked tirelessly on is a resource. And I will put both of your contact information because I'm sure people will want to reach out and get in touch with you. Thank you for all you do for kids and not just for kids, for the grownups that get to have children in their care. Schoolutions: Coaching and Teaching Strategies is created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music playing in the background. You can follow and listen to Schoolutions wherever you get your podcasts, or subscribe to never miss an episode and watch on YouTube.

[00:34:36] Olivia: Thank you to my guests, Leah Mermelstein and Dr. Jennifer Gioia, for sharing how we can support students who are stuck in their learning journeys. Now, I'd love to hear from you. Send me an email at schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Let me know how your school or district is addressing both individual needs and systemic barriers while ensuring interventions compliment rather than compete with each other.

[00:35:04] Olivia: Tune in every Monday for the best research-backed coaching and teaching strategies, including. You can apply right away to better the lives of the children in your care. Stay tuned for my bonus episodes every Friday, where I'll share how I applied what I learned from guests in schools that week. See you then.