S4 E23: 9 Hidden Trauma Responses in Students: Creating Brave Spaces for Healing with Arlène Elizabeth Casimir

In this transformative episode, Olivia welcomes Arlène Elizabeth Casimir —author, healer, The Awakened Teacher, and CEO/founder of Reveye—to share essential insights on co-creating classrooms that support self-regulation, co-regulation, and meaningful connection. As the co-author of Trauma-Responsive Pedagogy: Teaching for Healing and Transformation, Arlène breaks down the nine different trauma responses educators should recognize and offers actionable strategies to design learning spaces where both students and teachers can flourish academically, emotionally, and socially.

Through Reveye, Arlène brings together trauma-responsive teaching, culturally relevant pedagogy, healing-centered education, and multimedia literacy to help educators foster environments where students feel seen, heard, and valued. She integrates spirituality in education as a grounding force, offering practical ways to support reflection, resilience, and well-being in learning spaces.

Tune in to explore how educators can use intentional, inclusive practices to strengthen student engagement, emotional wellness, and academic success, creating classrooms that are not just places of learning but spaces of healing, growth, and transformation.

🔑 CORE INSIGHTS:

Traditional teaching methods focusing solely on academic outcomes and compliance are insufficient

➡️Trauma can be a gateway for healing and transformation

➡️The classroom can be an incubator for elevating consciousness

➡️Teachers must practice inner work for outer change

➡️Holding space is about creating containers for full humanity

Episode Mentions: 

• Carl G. Jung - Memories, Dreams, and Reflections
• bell hooks
• Toni Morrison 
• Komozi Woodard - Sarah Lawrence College
• Thích Nhất Hạnh
• don Miguel Ruiz - The Four Agreements
• Mewlana Jalaluddin Rumi – The Guest House

#TheAwakenedTeacher #TraumaResponsiveTeaching #TeacherPD #EducatorPodcast #TeacherResources #TraumaInformedEducation #TeacherGrowth #TeacherWellness #EducatorSupport #TeacherMentalHealth #ProfessionalDevelopment #BraveSpaces #ClassroomCulture #HoldingSpace #SEL #WholeChildEducation #TeacherCommunity #TeachersOfInstagram #TeacherLife #EducatorsOfInstagram #TeacherTribe #HealingCenteredEducation #StudentSupport #TraumaResponse #ClassroomManagement #EarlyChildhoodEd

When coaches, teachers, administrators, and families work hand in hand, it fosters a school atmosphere where everyone is inspired and every student is fully engaged in their learning journey.

Transcript

Olivia: [00:00:00] Hi there. I'm so happy you're here. Here's what you'll gain by listening to the very last second of this conversation with Arlène Elizabeth Casimir. Throughout this conversation, Arlène illuminates why teaching has to become a space for healing and transformation. Our traditional teaching methods really only focus on academic outcomes, compliance, and standardized assessments, and these are not enough to address the deep trauma and emotional needs students are bringing to the classroom.

Olivia: You will leave this conversation understanding nine different trauma responses, knowing how to create brave spaces in our classrooms, and understanding how the holding space protocol can empower students. Stay with us. I'm so excited to have you join our conversation. This is Schoolutions: Coaching and Teaching Strategies, the podcast that extends education beyond the classroom. A show that offers [00:01:00] educators and caregivers strategies to try right away and ensure every student receives the inspiration and support they need to thrive. I am Olivia Wahl, and I am so honored to hold space for this conversation with Arlène Elizabeth Casimir today. Let me tell you a little bit about Arlène.

Olivia: Arlène is the creator of The Awakened Teacher and Reveye, a Haitian-Creole word that means to awaken. Arlène believes awakening is an iterative process tied to the past, present, and future. Our conversation today will focus on her book. I have loved it for years. Here it is. So beautiful. It's called Trauma-Responsive Pedagogy, Teaching for Healing and Transformation. It's co-written with Courtney Baker. Arlène, this book is needed now more than ever with the trauma and adversity that our educators, their students, their caregivers are facing, and [00:02:00] I could not be more grateful for you making time to have this conversation today. Thank you. 

Arlène: You're so welcome. I'm honored, Olivia. Thank you for having me. Thank you for uplifting my work and for bringing me on to share more about it.

Olivia: Yeah, absolutely. And I know I had asked you, you know, who is a researcher or what piece of research do you lean on often when it comes to trauma responsive teaching? 

Arlène: Hmm. I actually have been leaning a lot on the work of Carl Jung and the work of bell hooks. Yeah. And I've been leaning, pulling studying the work of Carl Jung because there is something that's interesting about his walk. So, for those who are not familiar, Carl Jung was one of, [00:03:00] um, the most, like, reputable or powerful students of Freud, Sigmund Freud. And Freud always talked about the past, you know, the traumas and where they come from and your mother and your father and how that causes you, causes people to have all of these, um, issues, so to speak.

Arlène: But what I really appreciate about Jung's work is that he dares to say, it's your future self calling you into your evolution. So it's your future self saying, Hey, you won't get to this reality until we shake this up. And Carl Jung's work invites people to take full accountability for their inner and outer lives. And he says, you know, he who looks [00:04:00] outward dreams, he who looks inward awakens, and it's this idea that our inner lives, our intuition, our soul is our best teacher. And every experience that we have had, be it traumatic or pleasant, is a profound gateway to our transformation. And it's an invitation to rise until our highest expression.

Arlène: Ah, beautiful. Beautiful. So, we can do that through memories, through dreams, through symbols, through active imagination, through shadow work, through inner child work, various modalities to get in touch with that part of ourselves. But I find his work, particularly the red book, Memories, Dreams, and Symbols, very dense, but extremely powerful.

Arlène: And when I think about bell hooks as a researcher, beloved ancestor, mama bell [00:05:00] hooks, I think about her work, all about love, a new vision and how. Teaching is an act of love. And that makes me think about Toni Morrison's work, who says that love is only as good as the lover. If you're a hateful lover, you'll love hatefully. So putting Toni Morrison in conversation with bell hooks, Toni Morrison says, Love is beautiful and difficult always. And so why? Why is love so beautiful and so difficult? Well, bell hooks teaches that We lack a love ethic in our society. I mean, people are even embarrassed by the term, but when you really break it down and Ask, what does love mean?

Arlène: It's a commitment. She borrows from Eric Fromm's work, but she comes up with her own definition [00:06:00] that it's a commitment to developing one's own and another's spiritual growth. So let's push it further. Well, what is that? What is spiritual growth? Yeah. To develop and nurture one's own and another's well being in body, mind, and soul. So if I love you. I'm going to support you to be whole. Yes. And well. And I won't preach it, and I won't say it, but I'm gonna do it for myself first. So it comes in from internal to external. And so her work distinguishes between care and love. Her work shows us that we live in a loveless society. And her work even dares to say that we should teach love in school.[00:07:00] 

Arlène: And so, a big part of awakening for me is awakening to loving myself and loving others. It's taking full accountability for my life. Not going to blame my teachers. I'm not going to blame my family members. I'm not going to blame, um, my past it's daring to believe and know that my soul chose this incarnation and every lesson, every experience makes me who I am today. So if I'm a big block of stone being etched and carved like Michelangelo, every, um, strike of that, I don't know what the tool is called, you know, when they're yes. What is it called? Chisel. Every strike of the chisel, which could at times be traumatic, brings [00:08:00] out my beautiful and highest expression. 

Olivia: Yeah, that's it. Everything you're saying. It's so much bigger than our schools. This is, it's a way of seeing, it's a way of being, it's a way of breathing life into ourselves. And so then we can give everything. To what we need to. And I think that there's this dichotomy that a lot of educators face of that savior complex. And I've, I've spoken about this, uh, Colleen helps really illuminate that for me of, you know, we can't save everyone. I think loving someone, something I just heard you said is that it's, it's loving someone isn't about saving them. It's about really taking full account for yourself and so you can be open to nurturing them as [00:09:00] humans. And I also want to then ask you, even though you said like, it's not about looking into the past, what moment in your past is a teacher let you know the way we are managing trauma-impacted trauma-affected children. It is not effective. We need something more. 

Arlène: Yeah, and a couple of things are coming up, but I'm just taking a moment to gather my thoughts. It was several moments, right? And it's interesting because before this, um, interview last night, I had a dream about a student that I lost last month. And, um, I'm the kind of person who's not afraid to show my humanity. So if I get teary eyed, if I cry, I don't see it as weakness. I see it as showing up in my full vulnerability and true. And authentically [00:10:00] so. And so, um, it's interesting that I'm having this conversation today, um, and I will just say that his life was not in vain because what he taught me, as well as many other children, continues to teach me and continues to teach others, but I'll go back to when I first stepped into a middle school English language arts classroom.

Arlène: I was immediately struck by the challenges my students were facing. Um, so many of them were reading on a second-grade level, and it quickly became apparent to me that their academic struggles were only the tip of the iceberg. Like, these students were navigating a complex web of emotional, social, and economical hardship. And yet, the data only [00:11:00] reflected the academic performance, but the data didn't tell the full story of their lives. And I remember thinking, when are we going to develop a system of metrics that allows us to teach the whole child? That will require accountability on our part and a desire for us to recognize that we are the fabric of our schools and no one's coming to save us.

Olivia: Yes. 

Arlène: So, I started to create that system of metrics for myself. I became a student of my classroom and studied my students as well as myself, which meant I had to face my past. The past matters, but it doesn't need to be something that keeps us in a state of blame or shame. 

Olivia: Well said. 

Arlène: So, when I think about the work that I did, I [00:12:00] recognize that many of my students were dealing with profound personal trauma. And I noticed that personal trauma was a reflect of a reflection of societal and collective trauma. Love, loss of loved ones, gentrification, parental incarceration, substance abuse, economic instability, um, you know, housing hardship. And then I said, okay, this is middle school. This is hard. So I started to meditate about it.

Arlène: Like, I don't want to leave education. I feel honored to have found what I am uniquely designed to do and who can I do it with? So I was brought back to a conversation that I had with one of my professors, Komozi Woodard, Sarah Lawrence College, and he said to me, welcome. College is a place where you can shape your own identity.[00:13:00]  Who do you want to be? And I remember saying to him, Well, why did it take 13 years for somebody to ask me that? 

Olivia: It’s true. Yes! 

Arlène: Why aren't we asking kids this in kindergarten? 

Olivia: Yes. 

Arlène: And I was fortunate to have a strong identity as a Haitian American. My father took great, like, joy in showing me who I was as a Haitian and what that meant and it insulated me from a lot of harm. I mean, I had cousins and friends who would not claim to be Haitian because of all of the ways that Haitians were being persecuted in the early 90s, right? There was trauma there, but I remember asking myself Why don't we start this sooner? And what does it mean to actually do this? So I moved to New Orleans to teach the first children to come to [00:14:00] school post Hurricane Katrina and I started as their kindergarten teacher.

Arlène: And so in that time of teaching them, I realized, wait a minute, these children are experiencing vicarious trauma. Like they didn't weather the storm firsthand. They are haunted by the residual effects of the storm. And then I started to realize, Wait a minute. Poverty is traumatic. Right? And how can we define poverty? So economic poverty is traumatic, but these children are spiritually rich. These children are emotionally rich. Yes. Yeah. That's why they don't even know that they're at an economic disadvantage. And so when there was talk about closing the achievement gap, [00:15:00] I was just like, there is no achievement gap. 

Olivia: No there isn’t.

Arlène: Uh, an opportunity gap, there is a spiritual gap, there is an emotional gap, and the only achievement gap that exists is teachers who don't love themselves or these children and leaders who build these schools. And instead of listening to them, asking ourselves, what kind of place can this classroom be, and taking control for what's in our locus of control. We have these systems, but people create systems and people create systems that are a reflection of their psyche their consciousness.

Olivia: Yes. 

Arlène: Right? So the systems tell us a lot and I like the aftermath of [00:16:00] Hurricane Katrina and how it affected my students and seeing those psychological scars that remained and how that impacted their behavior, their engagement and, uh, their ability to learn was a turning point for me because I understood the traditional teaching methods focused on academic outcomes, compliance and standardized assessments.

Arlène: I also understood that is not enough. 

Olivia: No, it's not. 

Arlène: Teaching had to become a space for healing and transformation. So for me, it wasn't just being informed about trauma, right? That was one thing. Okay, I know there's trauma. There are all kinds of trauma. Yes. Okay, trauma manifests in students responses. It triggers students. It impacts their behavior. But I noticed something deeper at that time. Okay, trauma is a profound gateway for healing. [00:17:00] Trauma is a profound gateway for transformation. And the classroom has the potential to be an incubator for elevating consciousness, transcending circumstances, finding understanding, making meaning of our experiences, and choosing who we want to be, despite what we've been through. 

Olivia: Yes. The classroom can be a space for that. It can. I want to, I want to just read a quote from your book. These are Nell Duke's words. Because this just hit as I began, it's not even, it's in the introduction, um, “This book addresses another worry I've had about trauma-responsive education, the lack of an equity lens. This field needs to recognize the roles that systemic racism and classism in the United States [00:18:00] play both in causing trauma and in affecting the degree to which schooling is responsive to trauma.”

Olivia: So you just spoke to how you use the trauma responsive practices and I, I've been carrying the book around with me again, um, to every school, every building I'm serving. And I'm, um, I have the gift of facilitating coaching labs with one school district that we're going really in depth with. And they all were looking at the 9 F's, um, that you've created of the trauma manifestation that you just spoke to. So I'd love for you to go a little bit deeper with that because I am hearing over and over, especially in K-2 buildings, not as much at middle and high schools, but for our littles, I'm hearing a lot of, you know, the kids are just acting out. There's so many behaviors we're seeing. So this was extraordinarily helpful [00:19:00] for the cohort of coaches that I'm doing in depth work with. Can you go a little bit in more in depth with the 9 Fs?  

Arlène: Sure. So, in terms of going in depth with the 9 Fs, um, I'll start by breaking them down for those who are not familiar with my book. So, historically, scientific research identified only two to three universal responses. For stress and trauma, right? Or if flights and a lot of people are familiar with that, however, more recently, a great deal of clinicians and practitioners have started to recognize additional manifestations, like freeze and faint, right? Yeah. And I developed the framework of the 9 Fs to expand on these ideas and illustrate how they show up in educational settings.

Olivia: Yeah, so helpful. 

Arlène: The challenge - Thank you. The challenge is that these trauma [00:20:00] responses are often misinterpreted as behavioral issues. Now, what happens when trauma responses are misinterpreted as behavioral issues? Well, that leads to misguided intervention. So when we review these behaviors through a trauma-informed lens, we could shift from asking What's wrong with this student? How could I punish this student to what happened to this student? And how does what happened to the student activate what happened in me that takes accountability? So let's talk about the first one fight. So this manifests as anger, aggression, argumentativeness and confrontational behavior. And in school, it might look like hitting, yelling, throwing things or even being explosive.

Arlène: However, teachers may interpret this as a student being aggressive, [00:21:00] emotionally disturbed, or oppositional. And what does that lead to often? Punitive measures. But punishment doesn't address the root cause. Punishment doesn't make room for the, the wound to breathe and look into the underlying trauma. Right? So let's go to flight. So this response includes anxiety, panic attacks, avoidance, and students. might constantly fidget, ask to leave the room or even run out of the room without a warning. We often label these students as distracted, off task, disruptive, or even a runner. 

Olivia: Yes. 

Arlène: They're trying to escape an environment that feels unsafe. They're trying to escape an environment where they don't feel [00:22:00] supported to emotionally regulate themselves. Freeze response. Students may dissociate, space out, appear withdrawn. They may even be non-responsive, slow moving, or constantly on their phones. Um, this can be misread as disinterest, defiance, disrespect, depression, when in fact, The student could be overwhelmed and shutting down as a way to cope and the fate response. This is an emotional or physical shutdown. Students might put their heads down, fall asleep or appear perpetually confused.

Arlène: Okay, and teachers might view them as disengaged, lazy, seeking attention and when that's done, we miss the signs of deep emotional distress. So just imagine getting [00:23:00] punished when you're experiencing deep emotional distress. It often happens in schools. And the foreign response, this is people pleasing to the point of self-neglect. The student may be overly accommodating, afraid to say no, constantly helping others, even when their own needs are unmet, they might be seen as teacher pets or overly eager. But beneath that is a survival mechanism rooted in fear of rejection and fear of conflict.

Arlène: And it's rooted in a need for belonging and acceptance, that they are enough and worthy just as they are. So they don't have to overcompensate. People who fawn tend to overcompensate. And it's a little awkward. The forget response. Uh, trauma could really impair, you know, [00:24:00] executive functioning leading to forgetfulness, disorganization. Students may lose materials, miss deadlines, seem unprepared. And this is often misread as laziness or lack of interest in learning, rather than a sign of cognitive overload from trauma. Imagine getting punished when you're having a trauma response, so, the front trauma response.

Arlène: When students put on a front, this is emotional posturing, putting on a tough facade to protect oneself. The student may appear stoic, unfeeling, or resistant to emotional connection. And teachers may assume they're fine, they're strong, they don't need support, overlooking their need for compassion and understanding. And lots of children who demonstrate the front response have learned that it is not safe to allow other people to witness your vulnerability or your [00:25:00] emotions. And oftentimes students who exhibit a front response have had family members or adults with substance abuse issues and mental health issues.

Arlène: Which we're in an epidemic in our society, so that's why. And so the next response is the full response. This manifests as inappropriate humor, nervous laughter. Students might joke at the wrong time or use humor to deflect serious situations. They may be labeled as immature or insensitive or a class clown or someone who laughs to keep from crying. But this is often a coping mechanism to mask discomfort and pain. And the friend response involves trauma bonding. So what is trauma bonding? That's when people form relationships based on shared traumatic experiences. [00:26:00] Right. It's like, we could be friends. Both of our lives suck. 

Olivia: Yes. 

Arlène: And we should talk about how much life sucks. Like, you know, and it becomes this perpetual cycle and people will cling to toxic friendships or constantly relive traumatic events. With these peers, um, and these relationships can seem supportive on the surface like, oh, those two are inseparable or look how much they support each other, but they often perpetuate victimhood and harm.

Arlène: There's no accountability and trauma bonding. Everyone else's fault. Lots of blame, lots of shame, um, which makes it toxic. And so those are. Um, the 9 Fs and understanding these responses as survival mechanisms rather than willful disobedience or misbehavior is crucial. That is the purpose because when students experience trauma, their brains shift into survival mode, activating the [00:27:00] amygdala, the brain's fear center, and this hijacks their prefrontal cortex, which is responsible for rational thinking and decision-making. So in survival mode, students aren't choosing their behaviors. Their brains are reacting to perceived threats. So our role as educators is to help students move from survival to thriving. This means creating brave spaces because we cannot guarantee safety to anyone. I don't know if a part of my personality is going to trigger you, remind you of someone in your family who has mental health issues, substance abuse issues, or who has harmed you just by me being me.

Arlène: So all I can do is ask you to be brave enough to name when an experience feels like a threat. So that means that I have to support you in cultivating self-awareness that you know yourself so well, and to be that, you know yourself so well, you're willing to say, I feel threatened, [00:28:00] and I need to self-regulate, and this environment needs to be a space where we can all co regulate, right? And that requires inviting students to supportive environments where they can regulate their emotions, re-engage with their higher cognitive functions, and begin to heal. And I believe that classrooms can be spaces where we approach students with that level of intention, consciousness, compassion, and recognizing that their behaviors are signals of deeper needs.

Olivia: A couple of the schools I'm working in, in particular, have kindergarten through second grade, even PreK through second grade, young, young children, and they are seeing a lot of the trauma responses that you just spoke to, um, more than they've ever seen before this, specifically this [00:29:00] year. And what's been interesting is that the teachers are struggling because the responses are so disruptive in the class setting, um, in particular in kindergarten classrooms, it's this balance between I am not able to even to teach or convey information because the behavior is so disruptive, what advice would you have for this cohort of kindergarten teachers that are being hit, that are having things thrown in their classroom by more than one child in their space? How do you create that brave space when the children are so young? 

Arlène: Oh, that is the perfect time to do it. Starts by creating that brave and safe space within yourself. I would ask those teachers how safe they feel in their school community. And what's activated within themselves, because oftentimes the classroom [00:30:00] is a microcosm of what's happening on a macro-level school. So, if those teachers feel like victims, if they feel like they can't take full agency and accountability for their classroom, if they feel unsupported, that's going to reflect and how they teach children. Right? So that's one, where are you? Which is why I'm a huge advocate of inner work for outer change, taking full accountability for your life and your experience.

Arlène: You chose to be at this school and you continue to show up each day. So you might as well heal and transform or go somewhere else. It's really that simple. Right? So if I'm going to choose to come here, then I have to ask myself. What conditions have I created for children to flourish? What does the soil of this classroom look like? Do we have, uh, can we go back to the basis, the basics? What do we want this classroom to look like, sound like, and feel like? And, three-year-olds can tell you that. Oh, absolutely. 

Olivia: Yeah. [00:31:00] 

Arlène: So I would start by holding space for students, see, it's so important to take preventative measures; to lay the foundation and know when you need to relay the foundation.

Olivia: Yeah, right.

Arlène: So let's go back to what we want our classroom to look like sound like and feel like. Let's hold space for what's happening within us and within our community that makes us nmot feel like we can be brave. That makes us not feel safe. Let's use different text stories as medicine as a framework that I offer to support kids. Right? But it starts with that belief like these are babies. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Arlène: And I can support them. It starts with that acknowledgement. I need support. I don't feel safe in here. I don't feel brave in here. Right, right. It starts in the vulnerability of asking for help. [00:32:00] Admin, co teachers, colleagues, I need help. 

Olivia: Yeah.

Arlène: So I, I feel like there are so many things I could say systemically and in a classroom because as you know, I do educational consulting and I coach in classrooms all the time. That's a part of my work. Provide professional learning, professional development. And something that I would say is that there's layers to it. You can't put a Band-Aid on what needs surgery, right? So it's important to recognize that when we are looking at a classroom like that, where the children. are all in these trauma responses, so many children, you know, I, I, I will say, okay, the, the, we have been watering the weeds here because children want attention. [00:33:00]

Arlène: So if I start to give all my attention to Charlie, because Charlie's throwing chairs, hitting other children, then the other children get the signal. Well, that's how you get love around here. We see love as attention. So I guess this is what we have to do. So that requires me taking accountability as a teacher to say, what have I been focusing on? What have I been watering in here? 

Olivia: I think, but I think one of the complexities that happened in so many schools, that there are other folks involved outside of the classroom that are pushing in, and those are other voices. So I feel like in some buildings that I'm living with, that the teachers have lost some of their autonomy. And again, that would be the inner reflection of saying, wait a second here. I I know what I want my classroom soil to look and feel like I know what I want my community to how I want it to be a brief [00:34:00] space. And I also know that there are grownups in the buildings that are questioning those teachers and giving advice, sometimes unsolicited, that the teachers feel like I have to listen to this because it's an outside expert and outside professional. So I think part of what I wonder is how much autonomy do we offer our teachers to take that deep dive into being brave with that vulnerability? Because I think that's really scary to do. 

Arlène: Yeah, I'll bring it back to love. What is, where are the conditions to teach the whole teacher? To love the whole teacher. People ask me why I do pro-living and I will not break down, you know, I support schools with, uh, trauma responsive pedagogy, culturally, you know, responsive and sustaining education. And I won't go through all those terms. I will say I love teachers for a living. You know, what it looks like in practice. [00:35:00] First of all, I believe every principal is the the head teacher of their school. Every superintendent is the head teacher of all the principals they support. I love teachers. So that means I'm going to say what in this environment is not whole.

Arlène: How are your teacher's minds? How are their minds? How are their souls? How are their hearts? Thích Nhất Hạnh says in how to love, if you want to love someone, listen to their suffering. So I hold space for the principals, the teachers. Let's hear it. And that's what makes people uncomfortable because you have to pause. And most people want to take action. They want to fix things. Right. We're not fixing anything right now. What is going on here? So I don't assume that I know, although I can pick up on trends very quickly. 

Olivia: I'm sure. 

Arlène: Because I've [00:36:00] seen a lot. But I never assume that I know anything. Right. So I really go by the four agreements of don Miguel Ruiz, where he says, be impeccable with your word. So I'm not going to blame any of the adults around here. I'm not going to shame anybody. Don't make assumptions. I'm gonna ask questions. What's happening here? How long has this been happening? What support have you gotten for how to lay the foundation in this classroom? What kind of professional learning and professional development did you provide for your teachers? Excuse me, um, education department, where is the budget for people to be able to do that to support their teachers? And do you think the teachers need continuous support? I mean doctors practice medicine. Why aren't we practicing teaching? 

Olivia: So true. Yeah. 

Arlène: Yeah. Oh, and what I mean by teaching is why aren't we practicing love? That's good. Oh, what is that? Let's get on the same page. So how, first I have questions. I'm not going to make any [00:37:00] assumptions. Then I'm going to do my best to see the full picture of what's happening. And once I do, uh, once I see the full picture of what's happening, then I'm going to do my best to support with what I see. Right. So. That requires a journey. It's an inner work journey. Because at the end of the day, I have love, respect, and faith in you because you showed up today. You don't have to be here. The system is not going to fix itself and no one's coming to save you. Yes. So how can we work collaboratively and take collective responsibility for our schools?

Arlène: We're the adults sitting at this table. We chose to come here where the family's sitting at this table. We chose to send our children here. The [00:38:00] only people who cannot take collective responsibility are the children, adults are telling them what to do. So you know what you do in the classroom. You empower them to take collective responsibility of how that environment runs. That is where the bravery is. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Arlène: Give them back their power because they came with it in your classroom and you don't do to them what has been done to you. That means you have to pause and really see what's being done to you. 

Olivia: And I, I think it's also critical that this cohort of teachers in this building. They also realize they need to connect more as humans. They, um, they started Wednesday mornings. They're all doing like some type of learning or experience together before school, meditative yoga, whatever it is, just to be in the same space together before the children enter the building. Um, [00:39:00] and to have that moment of calm. And I think that's; it's really important to it's been fascinating to watch how this has evolved. Um, and I know the idea of a holding space and crafting that, I think it would be so helpful for listeners to better understand what does that mean to you creating a holding space and then also, you know, how. I'm hearing from you that that idea of a boundary between emotional space and the term professional boundaries. How do you balance that? Because that is pushback that some teachers will say, but. What does it mean to have a holding space within our classroom? 

Arlène: So holding space is a protocol. Holding space is creating a preventative is co-creating and facilitating a container. For people to [00:40:00] show up in their full humanity. 

Olivia: Yeah, it's beautiful. 

Arlène: That’s what holding space is. 

Olivia: It's beautiful. 

Arlène: How can I hold space for your full humanity? There is a poem by Rumi called The Guest House. And it says, being human is a guest house. Every day, a new visitor, a meanness, a sadness, a depression, a joy. Meet them all at the door. Laughing. Invite them in. Cause each has been set as a guide from beyond. I'm paraphrasing some of the words. But the point is, whether you're coming with sorrow, Olivia, and I'm coming with joy, and someone else is coming with, um, You know, surprise, and someone else is coming with curiosity.

Arlène: The idea is that we have a tapestry of human emotions and we can hold space for every guest. So, why do that? Why hold space for every guest? Because that's what it means to be human. You may be celebrating your [00:41:00] birthday. I may be grieving a death. Both of us are still our humanity matters. Our wholeness matters, being seen, being heard, being supported matters. And so what is the purpose of holding space? The purpose of holding space, it is a boundary in and of itself. You know why? Because when you experience trauma, your power gets taken away. And so holding space is an offering to give you back your power. And you know how you take that power? You could decide to share or not to share.

Arlène: Or not. You know how you take that power? You can tell people how to communicate with you. I'm only taking affirmations. I'm only taking questions to help me get clarity about this. I'm only taking connections because I want to know that I'm not alone. I'm only taking advice because I need solutions. [00:42:00] Holding space says don't come and save me. I'll tell you what I need. Just witness me. Be here for me. In however way I see it, and teaching is becoming a profession with therapeutic accents, so there is a method to it, there is a formula, you can't bake a cake with certain ingredients, so there is a way to hold space that I've created from years and years, we're talking like 16 years of practice, homes, lots, many schools, right, and it's since evolved since the book, but holding space, it is an opportunity to say, I love you.

Arlène: Show up as you fully are, and you don't have to be ashamed of anything. You are enough just the way you are. Now when people say, oh, there's a professional boundary, I don't wanna be vulnerable with the kids. And then they say, no one's sharing anything. No one's being vulnerable. [00:43:00] You can't get what you don't give. 

Olivia: You can't. 

Arlène: Well, you can't. So I always train with examples. What can you share with your students authentically, transparently, vulnerably, where you can maintain your composure and poise? That is the criteria. You can have whatever boundary you want, but what can you share authentically, transparently, vulnerably with composure and poise? There you go. Fit it in that boundary. Practice it. Look in the mirror, say it to yourself. So oftentimes we're not in relationships with people. Like I was in a school yesterday and someone said to me, like, I give them the reasons why we um, open the container, hold the space, then [00:44:00] close the container. That's not in the book, right? Because I can't put everything in the book. I've got to make a living around here. And I've got to write another book. So, holding space, there's opening the container, holding the space, and closing the container. So some people have said to me, Well, you know, I, I, I don't think that's fair because we shouldn't stop kids.

Arlène: Like really? Well, when I go to therapy, my therapist tells me it's 45 minutes and if I need help, I need to call the crisis hotline afterwards. So we can't, that in itself is teaching kids boundaries. Olivia: It is. Yeah. 

Arlène: Giving kids a schedule. These are the days we'll hold space for you. Allows them to prepare what they want space held for. Having an open space, office hours, for which kids can come in and share, like an open space, like doctors. Yes. So, we're holding space for Olivia and Arlène today, but there is an open slot [00:45:00] if anyone wants to take it. Oh, you'll take it, Tammy? Something's on your mind today?

Arlène: What's going on? What's on your heart today, Tammy? What's on your mind today, Tammy? What do you need from the group? That's literally the structure. What's on your heart? What's on your mind? What do you need from the group? Yeah, and I can tell the group I need affirmation. I need connection. I need questions. I need advice. But I'm telling the group because so many of us, whether it's our parents, our spouse, our siblings, our colleagues, our boss, we go to them and sometimes they tell us what we need. All of a sudden we're bombarded with advice. Sometimes they start to make connections. They take over the conversation and it's a demonstration of narcissistic empathy.

Arlène: Like what's happening. I didn't come here to like hear how you've gone through the same thing and everything's going to be all right. Toxic positivity, right? Sometimes we get bombarded with questions when we're processing something and we [00:46:00] finally open our heart to someone and it feels investigative. And that's not what we needed. So we, why hold space? Because I believe your inner teacher is smarter than me. Because your inner teacher knows what you need. So I want to hold space for you to hear your inner teacher with love. And balance your energy. That's why we're going to hold space. Yeah. And it's only 7 to 15 minutes a day.

Olivia: So I, the value of holding space, I see as a grownup that we need to learn how to do this better for each other. And then I also know that holding space has this ripple effect that allows for our children to engage with learning and the way we all hope and dream. So can you speak to your experience with that?

Arlène: Yeah. So I'll just say this. [00:47:00] Initially, when my classroom was selected in New Orleans as a chance as a site for transformative teaching. One of the reasons I was selected was because of my students data. So they were performing very well academically. And there was this question of how, how do you get these kids to perform so well academically? And when people would come and visit. They would ask, how is it that these kids take themselves to the bathroom, walk themselves to the cafeteria, go out to the playground, uh, you know, water the plants, navigate the classroom. And it's as if you're not even present. That was the riddle. Like, you know, they, they bring each other to the rug.

Arlène: They let each other know, okay, Ms. Casimir is about to teach right now. How did you create this environment? And I said, Oh, this Montessori environment for these black and Brown children. Okay. I'll tell you how I held space for them. That is the missing link. I held space for them and I see myself as a facilitator and I trust their [00:48:00] inner teacher and I believe that they shouldn't have to wait for their appointment on Tuesday at two to talk to the therapist for 45 minutes about their issues.

Arlène: I believe that life is so complex. Life can be so challenging, overwhelming, and scary that wouldn't it help to speak to someone every day who could see you, hear you and support you. And what I recognized was by holding space for students, they recognize we can do challenging things even when we're going through challenging things. And their growth had meaning, their growth had purpose. And one of the things I used to tell them, because I had to drive to, I had to learn to drive to go move to New Orleans, which was very scary for me, um, as a New Yorker and just someone who didn't want to learn how to drive. And I told the kids, I said, you know what, I can't stand the DMV. I don't even like that process. I don't like how people, those [00:49:00] road test drivers treat me. I don't like, you know, How, because I had failed the road test a couple of times and I told them, I was just like, but you know what I keep dreaming about driving this car and going wherever I want to go and doing whatever I need to do.

Arlène: So for you all, yeah, we're doing these standardized tests. We're doing whatever, but where is your car, your human avatar, your vehicle? What do you need to do in this current system to get to where you need to go to change it? And don't do it alone, do it with each other and be able to name what's hard and be able to name progress and being able to name how you find your joy along the way.

Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. 

Arlène: That's what this is about. Right. So, I mean, it's really [00:50:00] about saying we can be here for each other so that we can move forward with purpose and meaning. 

Olivia: That's it. As I, I read the book, I've re read it, I have all of my notes, you'll probably laugh at me, I, I have all of my post its in back and questions I wanted to ask you, and something that really, it, this, the idea of holding space is something that I think teachers can practice and it will be so freeing for them, um, Is adults in this space as well as children and the protocols and the way you're structuring it for children is what I think adults can take into their relationships as well. So, as I read this book for the 15th time. I read it through the lens of this book is not just for children in teaching this book is how to really [00:51:00] get in touch with yourself and to grow as a human. And so I appreciate it for so, so many reasons. And I wanted to wrap our conversation. I already got your permission.

Olivia: Um, page 15, this quote, “Although our intentions may be pure, our actions and words have a lasting impact on our students. They'll often forget our lessons, our metaphors, and our instructions, but they will often remember how we honored their dignity and held space for their inherent worth no matter what they were experiencing.” 

Arlène: Period. 

Olivia: Period. You have crafted a piece of art. In this book with Courtney and I could not be more grateful for your wisdom for your insights for your awakening that has this ripple effect and helps us all be brave. So I am so grateful for you. 

Arlène: I'm so grateful for you, Olivia. Thank you [00:52:00] for just bringing me out of my shell. There were moments in this conversation where I said, okay, let's just get real about this. And I am just so grateful to have spent this time with you. Thank you for uplifting my work. I really see myself as a wounded healer, a warrior and a visionary, a teacher. A leader. 

Olivia: Yes. 

Arlène: And to be able to show up and share a bit of my thinking and a bit of my practice and to hear how it resonates and supports you on your path. I am just incredibly honored and I thank you for your time. I thank you for this experience and I thank you for sharing my voice. Yeah. 

Olivia: I hope this is the first of many conversations. Um, and keep, keep, keep writing, keep doing this work because it is going to make all of our lives better, richer and better in times when we feel very little hope. So take care 

Arlène: Thank you, [00:53:00] 

Olivia: Bye, friend. Schoolutions: Coaching and Teaching Strategies is created produced and edited by me Olivia Wahl. Thank you to my older son Benjamin who created the music playing in the background. You can follow and listen to Schoolutions wherever you get your podcasts or subscribe to never miss an episode and watch on YouTube. Thank you to my guest, Arlène Elizabeth Casimir, for sharing how we can create brave spaces where healing and transformation allow our children and their grownups to engage with learning on a much deeper level. Now, I'd love to hear from you. Send me an email at schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Let me know what resonated most with you from my conversation with Arlène and how you will hold space for others in your life moving forward. Tune in every Monday for the best research-backed coaching and teaching strategies you can apply right away to better the lives of the children in your care. Stay tuned for my bonus episodes every Friday [00:54:00] where I'll share how I applied what I learned from the guests in schools that week. See you then.