S4 E26: The Secret Writing Space Your Students Need: Greenbelt Writing Revolution with Ralph Fletcher

In this inspiring conversation, I sit down with renowned author and educator Ralph Fletcher to discuss his book, Joy Write: Cultivating High-Impact, Low-Stakes Writing and why the concept of greenbelt writing is crucial for developing authentic student voices. 

Greenbelt writing serves as a designated creative space where students can write freely without constraints, similar to how greenbelts in nature create essential passages for wildlife to thrive.

Ralph, who has also written numerous books for young readers and teachers, shares his perspective on how scripted curricula and commercial writing programs have squeezed choice and joy out of classroom writing experiences. 

The conversation explores:

• Why choice is fundamental to developing strong writers
• How academic writing has overshadowed expressive writing in classrooms
• The importance of pleasure and joy in the writing process
• Practical ways teachers can incorporate greenbelt writing alongside required curriculum
• How student-initiated writing reveals skills, humor, and collaboration that often remain hidden

Episode Mentions: 

• What is Greenbelt Writing? by Ralph Fletcher
• The World's Loneliest Elephant by Ralph Fletcher (illustrated by Naoko Stoop)
• Craft and Process Studies by Matt Glover
• Misreading Masculinity by Thomas Newkirk
• Boy Writers by Ralph Fletcher
• Barry Lane (educator)
• Katie Wood Ray (educator who discusses writing stamina)
• Malcolm Gladwell (reference to his 10,000 hours concept)
• John Carroll (professor at University of New Hampshire)

Ralph offers examples of how teachers can validate and affirm student writing without feeling pressured to grade or critique it heavily, suggesting that sometimes benign neglect allows creativity to flourish. 

The episode concludes with a discussion about writing identity and how teachers can help all students see themselves as writers by providing opportunities for authentic expression.

Perfect for teachers, coaches, and caregivers looking to restore creativity and joy to writing instruction while balancing curricular demands.

#GreenbeltWriting #JoyWrite #RalphFletcher #WritersCraft #WritersNotebook #WritingMentor #LowStakesWriting #WritingWorkshop #StudentChoice #AuthenticWriting #TeachersOfTwitter #TeachWriting #WritingTeacher #LiteracyMatters #WritingInstruction #ELA #ElementaryELA #StudentVoice #WritingJoy #CreativeWriting #WriteFromTheHeart #WritersIdentity #WritingCommunity #ReclaimWriting #TeacherLife #EdChat #LiteracyEducation #ChoiceMatters #StudentEngagement #WritingFreedom

When coaches, teachers, administrators, and families work hand in hand, it fosters a school atmosphere where everyone is inspired and every student is fully engaged in their learning journey.

Transcript

Olivia: [00:00:00] Hi there. I'm so happy you're here. Here's what you'll gain by listening to the very last second of this conversation with one of my longtime mentors, Ralph Fletcher. Through my conversation with Ralph, you'll learn why his concept of Greenbelt writing provides essential creative space for students to develop their authentic writing voice through choice and joy.

Olivia: It serves as a necessary compliment to more structured and academic writing programs that we're seeing prevalent in schools today. You'll leave the conversation understanding why choice is fundamental to developing writers, why joy and pleasure are critical elements in writing development, And why teachers should validate and affirm student initiated writing.

Olivia: Stay with us. I'm so excited to have you join our conversation. This is Schoolutions: Coaching and Teaching Strategies, the podcast that extends education beyond the classroom, a show that offers [00:01:00] educators and caregivers strategies to try right away and ensure every student receives the inspiration and support they need to thrive.

Olivia: I am Olivia Wahl and I am humbled and honored to have Ralph Fletcher as a guest today. Let me tell you a little bit about Ralph. Ralph Fletcher has written many books for young readers and writers, as well as books for writing teachers. His most recent picture book is beautiful. It's The World's Loneliest Elephant.

Olivia: It's illustrated by Naoko Stoop. Ralph visits schools and speaks at educational conferences around the U. S. and abroad, helping teachers find wiser ways of teaching writing. Our conversation today will focus on his book. I have it right here. It's so vibrant and beautiful. What we need these days. Joy Write: Cultivating High-Impact, Low-Stakes Writing.

Olivia: We are going to zoom in, Ralph. I asked you to speak to the concept of Greenbelt writing. Because I think our kids need [00:02:00] this and let's face it. Teachers need this now more than ever. Welcome um, I also want to just as a side note, your nature photography inspires me endlessly when I'm on social and I just had the gift of sitting in your keynote session on a Saturday morning at CCIRA and you put up a gorgeous photo of a tree in still waters with mountains behind it. And I've written three different iterations of a response to that photo and I've landed on a blue post it that I go back and look at often to remind me of what I need to be thinking about these days.

Olivia: So. Yeah, I feel like your photography is a form of Greenbelt writing in its own way. Interesting. 

Ralph: That is interesting. I, I never thought of that before, but I, I, and maybe we'll get a chance to come back to the, uh, the photography later on in the session. 

Olivia: I would love to, I would love to. So with your books lining my professional shelf, [00:03:00] years of work, who is a researcher that you're leaning on more than ever with your writing these days?

Ralph: Well, one, one writer that I admire a lot, and you know, he's a friend of mine's, uh, or certainly a colleague, is Matt Glover, um, and he has a book that I was looking at called Craft and Process Studies, um, and he, um, in that book he really advocates the importance of teachers letting kids choose the genre that kids write in.

Ralph: You know, like a lot of times in school, and we'll get to, we'll get the whole idea of choice, probably that'll be the main theme of our talk today, but, um, in many classrooms, the students kind of go through a series of units that are predetermined and they're top down. In other words, they're decided by the teacher.

Ralph: Um, and I can see some value in that, but I think that's, I agree with Matt that sometimes there's value [00:04:00] in also letting students, um, choose what genre they want to write in. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Ralph: Um, I'll give you a quick example of that. Let's just imagine that you wrote a piece, uh, you went to a, you know, uh, an island in the Caribbean and you fell in love with it and you, you started thinking about like writing, like you can fall in love with a person, but you can also fall in love with a place.

Ralph: So, you know, you started thinking about like, okay, so falling in love with a place, what can I, what could I do with that? And does that feel, and then, so if the, if the genre is already determined by the teacher, I think that the student doesn't get the chance to see what would be the most natural genre for that piece.

Ralph: So, Would it be a short story? No. Would it be a poem? Mm. You know, for me, if I had that idea, I might follow it to, uh, maybe an essay in the travel section of the Sunday newspaper. You know, most, most magazines, most newspapers have a travel section, and they do have like [00:05:00] essays. Sometimes, you know, travel process or whatever.

Ralph: The idea of falling in love with a place might fit there. So I, and I think there's value. And letting the student, him or herself, think, how am I going to follow this to the appropriate genre? That's, that's empowering, I think. 

Olivia: I would agree. And since seeing you speak, you also reminded me of my own practices as a classroom teacher. And then what I tried to advocate for as a collaborative coach in school districts, something that I always encourage teachers to build in between their prescribed units of study was at least a week of wiggle room of time. Thank you. genre choice. And it was always fascinating for me if they were wrapping up an informational unit of study to see the ways that children would play with taking the topic that they may have taught their readers about, but unpacking that through story, unpacking that through poetry.

Olivia: I see what you're speaking to is much more, I believe [00:06:00] considering audience and the best way to reach that audience or convey that thinking and that's, that's different than what I'm saying. Um, and I think both there's time and space, but just choice, it's critical. And I'd love for you also to speak to what's gone awry outside of the prescribed curriculum; um, what do you feel has gone most off track with writing these days? 

Ralph: Um, yeah, before, before I do, I have to say, I like your phrase, uh, a week of wiggle room. I think that that's interesting. Um, so first of all, um, as anybody who's been involved with education as a teacher and probably as a parent too, you can see that there's, um, there are pendulums in education.

Olivia: Yes. 

Ralph: You know, um, if you have a, a, a student, a child who's, you know, 20ish, um, you may remember that when your kid was little, the schools were espousing whole [00:07:00] language with a lot of just immersion and just reading to kids. And the idea was that students would pick up, you know, reading skills and comprehension just by being saturated and marinated in good books. And now because of Science of Reading, which is another whole movement and it's another whole podcast, which I'm sure you'll, you'll tackle somewhere else. 

Olivia: Yes. 

Ralph: It's much more, the movement has been much more toward, um, stricter phonics, systemic, you know, systematic teaching and less trust that kids would just absorb it. So obviously we're not talking about reading today, but in terms of writing, um, I think there's been a swing back from more open-ended writing, more choice, um, you know, the writing workshop is being a place where you can, where kids can do the writing that they need to do. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Ralph: And now there's a little bit more sense, maybe a lot more sense that, um, that teachers need to be, um, giving more [00:08:00] direct instruction and, um, leading them through a lot, uh, of genres that they're going to need. Now there's a couple of things that play into that. One of them is Common Core. Um, in Common Core, um, is much more about, uh, the writing the kids are going to need. And it's, frankly, it's really much less about expressive writing. It's more about, uh, academic writing. Um, and, uh, the, the chief author of that has been quoted as saying that in the real world you find out that nobody really cares what you think about something.

Ralph: It's more like what does the writing itself think and, and I, you know, I don't agree with that, but yeah, the point is that, that I would just say this, Olivia, that I think that, um, the writing in, in school has become more academic. You know, I was thinking about that movie with Jerry Maguire, um, with Tom Cruise.

Ralph: You know, and at [00:09:00] one point he says to, uh, his, his athlete that he's representing, Cuba Gooding, he says, that is not what inspires people. And I think that when you think about children being pushed to do a lot of academic writing, uh, compare and contrast, essay writing, response to literature uh, instead of like writing about the things that they care and they're passionate about. Um, I think that that's been a, been a, a turnoff. And so if I just may go a little bit further on this, um, the other, the other thing that's happened is, um, there's a proliferation of, uh, commercial writing programs out there now. 

Olivia: That's my fear. Yeah. 

Ralph: Yeah. And it's, um, I, I, you know, I understand why this happened. Um, but I think that you know, we talk about, uh, box programs, you know, you open up the box and the teachers all get the, [00:10:00] they get the, um, manual. And one of the words that teachers hear a lot is the word fidelity, which is, you know, probably a good, a good word in a marital sense. But in terms of, in terms of programmatic learning, it means that, you know, the teacher really is cautioned not to stray too far from the program.

Ralph: And, so, um, and I just want to say, you know, I'll get on and off my soapbox here, but I do think that when we talk about a boxed program, one of the problems is, is that the teachers feel boxed in, and as a result, kids feel boxed in. 

Olivia: Yes. 

Ralph: You know, the kids don't really, um, have a chance to explore their, their passions, their identities, their, the things that, that really, that really move them. And, and maybe the things that they write about when they're not in school, too. 

Olivia: Well, and that's, that's what I adore, adore about Greenbelt writing and to [00:11:00] pivot, you know, if you're a teacher in a school district and if you're not tenured, there's that pressure to follow and tow the line. And yet I believe that teachers also hold great autonomy and agency when we see the possibility and what can we control? Yes, we have a scripted curriculum. None of those scripted curricula boxed programs run every week of the school year that I've seen in my research. There is wiggle room. And so what I saw that Greenbelt can offer as an opportunity is how can we celebrate writing for writing and joy, um, and nurture that inspiration for our children.

Olivia: I actually post-ited some pages in your book because I love that you have captured the essence of Greenbelt because you did research on what a Greenbelt actually is. So is it okay if I read just an excerpt? 

Ralph: Sure.

Olivia: I'm [00:12:00] putting you on the spot. So this is on page 38, “A Greenbelt sometimes called a greenway or a green wedge is an invisible line designating a border around a certain area, preventing development of that area and allowing wildlife to return and be established.”

Olivia: You go on to say, it's a quote from John Carroll, who's a professor at the Natural Resources at the University of New Hampshire. “Greenbelts create a passageway, allowing species to move from one habitat to another. That's critically important for the survival of those species.”

Olivia: And when I read that, I thought. Yes, there's so many parallels. So can you speak to that? And also, what is Greenbelt writing? 

Ralph: Sure. So, um, it's funny that you mentioned that, you know, sometimes like when you write a book and then you move on to other projects, you sort of forget different parts of it. And John Carroll is actually a neighbor of ours and, you know, in another part [00:13:00] of town here, he doesn't live as much close, but he's still, he's a retired professor. And that, that's a really interesting quote. I think that's a very telling quote. 

Olivia: I agree. 

Ralph: Yeah. Um, so, I think that, um, you know, we have, going back to the, the metaphor of, of, of building and communities and, and land, and land use, you know, we have a lot of development and we need development. We need schools, we need hospitals, we need places to buy our food, um, you know, I probably have to remind myself that, you know, the suburban sprawl isn't all bad because we need, we need things.

Ralph: In fact, in the United States now, we have, as you know very well, we have a shortage of housing too. So. But, at the same time, um, there's an erosion that happens in terms of quality of life, you know, there's more pollution, there's more, you know, uh, runoff, um, and there's, there are some species, uh, of animals that can survive in that really, um, more [00:14:00] domesticated landscape, and, but there are some that can't.

Ralph: And you know, it's funny, like, I think that really what's happened is that in, in the, in the curriculum and writing in school, it's become more, um, it's become more developed. You know, it's been a lot of trees that have been cut down. Um, a lot of wildness has been lost. And to really be candid, you know, I think that a podcast like this, we can, we can just put our cards on the table.

Ralph: And, you know, one of the, one of the beautiful things is that nobody has to agree with everything that we say. But, um, there are some kids, even in this more, um, developed and academic environment in writing, who can survive fine. And you know, honestly, I probably would have been okay. You know, I was, I was kind of a kid that was pretty compliant.

Ralph: You know, I could sit there and do what the teacher wanted. If she wanted me to do it this way, I could do it this way. If, if you wanted it this way. But there are a lot of kids that, um, are not. Just like there are a lot of species that are [00:15:00] struggling. Um, and, and so a Greenbelt is, to me, to me, it's, and I, I'm thinking about when I met you, uh, in Colorado, I don't think I said this, but I, I just want to say it now that I think it's, um, it's a compromise in a way, you know, it, it, it acknowledges and recognizes that in many school districts, teachers and kids are, are dealing with a more academic, um, and more more programmatic and less open-ended..

Ralph: But even if you feel like you have to teach that way, as you said, the teachers who are not tenured particularly, even if that's true, um, I think that there needs to be some time for the kids to just like do their own kind of writing. And so I'm advocating that we, teachers think about creating some green spaces, which are opportunities for kids to do the writing that they want to do.

Ralph: And it's totally open ended. It's kind of like, it's wild, um, and, um, you know, it's, [00:16:00] uh, my friend Barry Lane, uh, he defined it, well, it's funny when I came up with this idea, but Barry liked the idea and he said, he said, yeah, Greenbelt writing is that the, is the writing kids love to do when no one's looking over their shoulders.

Ralph: So I think it's a chance, you know, and, and that's an interesting thing is like, you know, we're not looking over the kids’ shoulders. Although, as we talk about a little bit more, I do think that there's ways parents, adults, teachers can affirm it and validate it for the kids, too. But um, you know, it's, it's, Olivia, it's one of these things, of course, that I could talk about for hours, but I, I will say this, that, you know, just, just as you, when you read that definition, when you, like if, if you, you know, if you and I would go out to a green space together, we would, you know, we'd probably park at some, you know, parking lot.

Ralph: And then at some point as you walk in, it starts to feel different. You know, there's not walkways. There's not, you know, maybe there's some basic facilities, [00:17:00] but it's, it's pretty much, you're kind of going back into a wild nature spot. And I think that when kids do this kind of writing, it really needs to feel different for them.

Ralph: It really needs to feel like, you know, we're, we're writing. It's not like school writing. We don't have to follow the same rules or procedures, although they may decide to. And, also, a teacher may see something the kids are doing in their Greenbelt writing and say to themselves and say to the kids, you know, what you're doing there is something that we could really pull into our, our writing workshop and talk about it and this is something you could do in all your writing. I mean, I think that, I think it's rich for the kids, but it could be rich for the teachers too. 

Olivia: You're walking in my mind because that's exactly what happened. I've shared with you that my younger son, when he was in fourth and fifth grade with a group of friends and the afterschool program started a series, Two Idiots that Changed the World and for a lack of a better title.

Olivia: [00:18:00] It's apt for fourth and fifth graders, I suppose, but it was phenomenal and it's a comic strip. And it took great trust for them to start bringing this folder that started small and then grew, grew, grew with all of these strips and pieces of paper to show their teacher during the day. And what that teacher did, she is phenomenal.

Olivia: She did exactly what you just said. She looked through, first of all, she had a wonderful sense of humor. She still does. And that's why I love her extra. She read these comics and was just in tears laughing. So they got to see that response to their writing. 

Ralph: Yes. 

Olivia: And then she also saw the wit, the satire, the humor, the deep level of understanding that these children had about the world around them that never I don't believe it would have been seen in the light it was, um, if if they hadn't have [00:19:00] trusted her to bring that writing in. So I think there's vulnerability, not just for the children, but for grownups that they have to really welcome writing that's happening outside. And that's what we want. We want reading happening outside of school. We want writing happening outside of school.

Olivia: So when she opened the classroom to that type of writing. It showed her how this group of writers in the fourth and fifth grade, they were collaborating and they were giving each other feedback. No, switch this, change this - in ways that I don't think we always, um, expect children to do. And boy, they can. And that's why it's incredible to me. 

Ralph: Yeah. I mean, um, you, you said a lot there that I want to respond to. Um, one of the things that I was struck by when you were talking is, um, you talked about the wit, the satire, the humor, um, by the way, I'm just [00:20:00] curious, were these boys? 

Olivia: Yes. 

Ralph: Yeah, um, so, you know, I don't know my book on boy writing.

Olivia: I do. 

Ralph: Yeah, and one of the things that, um, When I was talking to Tom Newkirk, who's a kind of expert in this area too, he wrote a wonderful book called Misreading Masculinity. He, he said in his book, the central genre for boys are satire and parody. Boys love to take a form and twist it in some way.

Olivia: Yes. 

Ralph: And, and I think you can almost make the argument, I mean, obviously we want kids to learn conventional ways to, to write things, but I think you could almost make the argument that when kids can kind of play with the genre and twist it and turn it, that almost shows they're mastery over it, too.

Olivia: I agree, yes. 

Ralph: You know, so, but when you were talking, I was also struck by, and it kind of made me sad to think of it, is like, when you think of the units, uh, that are, uh, sanctioned in school, I don't think there's much humor allowed. 

Olivia: No. 

Ralph: And humor, you know, is, [00:21:00] man, talk about the secret sauce, uh, I think that, you know, for all writers, not just fiction writers or poets and, or movie script writers, but you know, I, I think that it's, it's something that's so important in all writing and you made me realize, which I find this stimulating, you really may realize that the Greenbelt writing also includes and really welcomes, uh, that humor, that aspect of humor. 

Olivia: It does. It does. 

Ralph: Um, you know, um, I think that the teacher that you describe did a really good job of receiving it, you know, and and that means like, um, you know taking it for what it is 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Ralph: And and I'm gonna take a wild guess. It's probably was you know, it probably wasn't perfect You know what? I mean? It was probably kind of messy. There were probably misspellings but I think it's [00:22:00] important that you um you affirm what kids are doing and, you know, try to look at the glass being half full. Well, you know, but maybe we'll, we'll get to that talking about how, what are ways that we can affirm and respond to this kind of writing so that we let the kids know that, um, it's, it's valuable and it's a valuable experience.

Olivia: Well, and I think that's a good segue because if I'm a teacher in the classroom, as I've said, no scripted curriculum, no boxed program has every week accounted for. And I also, when I am looking at those programs, I'm meeting with teachers to say, if this is a menu of potential lessons within a genre or within a mode of writing that we're teaching, which do you feel are critical based on what you know about your writers and which could be for a small group or a one-on-one conference.

Olivia: And so that's a way you can also peel back the layers of these curricula. It's not every day slogging through day one, day two, you can look [00:23:00] at the offerings as possibilities, but not all for a whole group because if we're not driving our writing instruction by the needs of our children, then I don't know what we're doing. Um, but that idea of being affirming while we're still coaching students as writers I think I also would love for you to speak to how do we incorporate this in your view or scheme of a year as teachers?

Ralph: Yeah, um, so I think of it as um, I think of it as something that is parallel to the regular writing curriculum. And when I think about this stuff, it's kind of bittersweet to me in the sense that, um, if I were to describe to you what I have seen in terms of Greenbelt writing, and this, this kind of is, you know, resonates with what you said about your, your son's experience.

Ralph: What I realized is that the qualities that are there are things that, once [00:24:00] upon a time, were more present in a regular writing classroom. Like the way I would describe a writing workshop. So um, you know, and I, I would love to fight that battle too, and I still do. I think that, you know, we still need to have a lot more choice in the writing classrooms.

Ralph: But um, I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think that I want kids to do this kind of writing alongside, um, the other kinds of writing that they're, they're doing. So if, you know, it's not like instead of the, it's, it's ongoing and, um, you know, I, kids like they, they do it at lunch, they do it, uh, you know, they have some downtime, they do it after school or they do it on a rainy day when the kids have no recess. Um, and the teacher kind of recognizes it, you know, and, um, and gives them, you know, it's funny, even like as kids get older, they don't seem like that they care, you know, whether you like it or not, but they do [00:25:00] care. 

Olivia: They really care. They really care. 

Ralph: And they really, they really notice it. And I, there's something, um, sometimes there's even little nonverbal things that we do that we can kind of dismiss or, you know, we roll our eyes or we sigh and kids really pick up on that stuff. So, I think that it sort of starts with the teacher's kind of um, examining their own beliefs and sort of like, if, do I value this kind of writing? Because if I could just make my little sales pitch for it for a second here, I think what you're going to be, you know, I don't think you can get better at anything unless you do it a lot.

Olivia: I agree. 

Ralph: And that's true with, you know, you and I could go down the list, whether it's skiing, whether it's playing pickleball, whether it's cooking. Um, you know, I mean Malcolm Gladwell famously talked about the 10,000 hours, right? And I don't know if it's 10,000 hours, but it's certainly quantity, volume.

Ralph: And so one of the things that Greenbelt writing contributes to is volume. Kids are [00:26:00] writing a lot and that's really important. If kids are going to be good at anything, they've got to write a lot. So that's one thing. They're creating, they're also working on their stamina, you know, and stamina, like, the way I, the way I think of it, and I got this idea from, um, Katie Wood Ray, Katie Wood Ray, in terms of stamina, Katie Wood Ray talks about two kinds of stamina.

Ralph: One is the stamina to stay with an idea, uh, during one sitting, you know, uh, like, and then the other, the other stamina is staying with a piece of writing over time. You know, kindergarten kids in early first grade, they tend to write for a session, then they're done and they're done with the piece. And then they started another piece tomorrow. I mean, that's, I'm generalizing, but, but as kids get older and they, they, they understand that you can stay with an idea for a while. And I mean, I'm working on a book now it's going to take me, you know, months to finish, so I've got to, you know, it's the stamina that, you know,so I think that, um, that's an important factor that they feel that stamina.

Ralph: Um, [00:27:00] they also, two more things. One of the things is that they, um, they collaborate, and you mentioned that earlier, and you know, collaboration is one of those funny things, and I've even got, I think it's a paradox in a way, because in a way, I do think writing is one of those individual things where you kind of go inside your head, and yet, um, kids are also in a community of writers, and they work with each other, and you know, one of the things that the business community has, has taught us, they want, they want people that can work together on something.

Ralph: So, you know, there's four of us together, we get together, and we talk about, um, we, we read a report, we write a report, and we synthesize our ideas. And I think that there's, there's value in having kids work together. There's, there's probably more value than we realize. Sometimes it looks like one kid's doing all the work and the other kid's just sitting there watching.

Ralph: But I think there's a lot of parallel play, a lot of metacognition going on, a lot of watching somebody else scaffold it. So the collaboration piece is important. [00:28:00] And the last thing I would say is, um, the P word - pleasure. You know, it's like it's I think you alluded to this earlier. If kids, um, enjoy reading they'll, they'll read at home and I think you could almost evaluate a good reading program by do the kids read at home 

Olivia: 100%. Yes! 

Ralph: And I would say the same thing with writing if they enjoy writing they'll write at home And if they don't enjoy it, they won't write at home. If they don't enjoy reading, they won't read at home. So pleasure seems like a kind of a loosey goosey, you know 1960s California beanbag thing. It seems like non rigorous, right? But I think that um, you know, uh, choice has been really squeezed out of the writing curriculum because of these programs we're talking about the kids don't have a lot of choice and I'd like to talk about that a little bit in if I may but, but I think also pleasure has been squeezed out too.

Ralph: And um, I [00:29:00] mean It's funny, this booking I'm working on right now, the chapter I'm really working on is that I think we need to promote pleasure in writing, in the writing classroom. And, and how do you do that? I mean, and by the way, writing's not always pleasurable. I'm sure there's times that you and I both that, that we, we have to write something. We're not loving it. We're, we're, we're loving finishing it. 

Olivia: Right. We're loving finishing it. You know, Ralph, I want to say after I left your session, I also started to reflect back on my years in classroom settings with kinder through second graders, as well as intermediate, and I started to think about how did I carve space for Greenbelt writing?

Olivia: I just didn't call it that. And I thought back, especially with my work with kindergarten, most of my class was bilingual. And we had centers. And so I had a center that happened every day, year-round, and it was choice writing. And it was fascinating. I remember I went to Lowe's and got a [00:30:00] mailbox and I had letter paper, all different paper choices.

Olivia: And every day there would be different groups of children that would b line to the writing center and it was completely open choice. And what I'm seeing a trend right now with these programs that are being implemented station/center work is coming back into popularity. If I were a classroom teacher, I would capitalize upon that and make sure I had a writing station open-choice genre available every single day to my children.

Olivia: Um, especially at K-2. And then I thought, I remembered you brought this back at grades 3-5. I had…writing notebooks where everything in my mind and we for collecting and, um, developing and just nurturing our ideas. I remember I had a fourth grader approach me and say, I know we're in the middle of narrative. I really want to [00:31:00] play around with how I could try this in different genres - different modes of writing. And I said, okay. And so we were playing around and I said, what if you stapled a notebook, another composition book to the back of this, and that became your out of genre/exploration, whatever you want to write notebook, and then your in class genre, a notebook, whatever we're doing would be in front.

Olivia: Other kids saw that happening and this student was pleased as punch that they had that autonomy and agency and what happened every day when they would finish what they thought was finished. They had done enough in the genre we were focused on. I would watch her and she would go into the second notebook and I thought I wish I would have opened that as an option for more students, because it would have been really helpful for me as a teacher to gauge their strengths across and the transfer. Because I think that's another notion we miss with writing, how our [00:32:00] children transferring the kernels of what we're trying to impart, whether it's in a conference or a whole group lesson across different pieces of writing?

Ralph: Yeah, yeah, um, and you know, the writer's notebook is near and dear to my heart as you probably know. So, um, I, I think that, you know, um, I think, you know, just to go back to like a definition of, I don't have like a soundbite, but I think Greenbelt writing is pure choice writing. 

Olivia: That's why I love it. 

Ralph: You know, and yeah, it's just kind of, it's, it's open and, um, you know, and I think that, um, there's a lot of aspects to that, like I think that some kids, especially older kids who have been, um, used to being given topics, I mean, this is a pejorative verb, but I'll just say they've been spoon-fed topics for years. So then therefore when you sort of say you can write what they want, a lot of the kids just, those are muscles that have atrophied for them. So we may have to show them how to read [00:33:00] the world and read their lives and you know how something small, um, could also be a rich topic. You know, um, you know, potentially, so I think that, you know, choice, you know, once we give the kids the choice, um, it may, it may need a little bit of nurturing to get it going.

Ralph: Um, you know, Olivia, I was, I was thinking about something, you know, like, I mean, uh, I was watching parts of the whole, uh, Saturday Night Live. Uh, you know, they did, they did a documentary of the four of, of, for them, I've watched a little bit of them and, um, God knows I'm not a comedian, but, um, one of the things that improv improvisation, like if you and I were doing improv in the stage and you know, is, is that if you, you started with, you started with some like outlandish premise, the way I need to respond is, yes and… [00:34:00] you know, like, in other words, like, no matter what you come up with, I've got to sort of build off of it.

Ralph: And I think what I'm trying to say is that when teachers see kids starting to do their Greenbelt writing, um, I really think that we should try to take that same stance. You know, there may be times when we have to draw a line, but I think we should try to say yes as much as we can. You know, I'll tell you this one quick story. Um, I was in a classroom and the teacher and I, you know, we met before the school, and I was going to do a mini-lesson and helping the kids write about a big issue using a narrative lead.

Ralph: Um, and I think I do talk about this a little bit in my book, um, Joy Write. So I gave my little mini-lesson and then I, but I asked the kids to say, you know, I wanted to meet them all and ask them what they were going to write about. So, you know, so, so the first kid said, um, um, I’m Melissa, I'm writing about how zoos are bad. Next kid, um, [00:35:00] um, Ramona, I'm writing about how zoos are good. And then after about the fourth kid talking about zoos, I looked at the teacher and she said, yeah, well, what we do is for the first, you know, time that they write in a genre, in a unit, we all do the same topic. So, so I said, okay, so then it was really awkward.

Ralph: We had to keep going, even though I knew every kid was gonna be writing about the zoos one way or another. It was like, kind of inauthentic. But then I sent the kids off to write. I conferred with this one boy, and we talked about the idea of a narrative lead. He liked the idea. And, and so I said, you know, he, he tried one and he, and it was good, it was a, it was a good lead.

Ralph: So I said, you think that that would, where would, you think that that might go in your piece? Like, and he said, yeah, well maybe, I said, where would it go, would it go at the beginning or the middle, the end? He says, I think it would go at the beginning. So then I said, well, I wonder what would happen if you tried that and he started to put it in.

Ralph: But then he said, but I can't do that. I said, well, why not? He says, because the [00:36:00] first paragraph has to include all these things in it. So now you're telling the kids what genre to write in, persuasion, you're telling them what topic to write in, zoos, and you're telling the kids how to, to approach the topic. You know, the, the, the, the, we talk about the, you know, some of these programs talk about the arc of the writing. To me, when you get to that point, it's not really a writing workshop anymore. It's just basically assigning kids writing. And I think that, um, you know, so Greenbelt writing in my book, Joy Write, is kind of a reaction against that.

Ralph: It's basically, um, you know, it's, I just thought of this as kind of an, maybe an unfortunate metaphor, but it's like, you know, it's like jumping into the lifeboats with a few things that you can grab onto and save, you know let's just base it because these kids these kids need some experience um, writing about what matters to them. Just like we know that in a uh, the kids are going to have a better chance of becoming [00:37:00] good readers if they go to the library pick a book that they like or an author they love and a genre they love to read, maybe a subject matter.

Ralph: Somehow I, I look at the writing classroom should be more of that. There should be more kids choosing things that they really are, are interested in. 

Olivia: And I would say that my older son who is going off to college in the fall, he now looks back with fond memories. It didn't feel fond to him always when he was little, but we had a writer's workshop in our house all the time. We had Greenbelt writing happening all the time, publishing celebrations, writing stuck up all over because I believe that children have to see themselves as writers to get their voice out in the world. Uh, I saw a photograph yesterday. It bothered me because I tend to have lots of ideas. I don't spend enough time writing to capture those ideas.

Olivia: And it [00:38:00] had a faucet with the word ideas over it with just water flooding. But then, um, writing and then the bucket of capturing the ideas and I think for our children, if they can see that whether it's on post its, I live in a world of post its, lots of post-its everywhere, but then I capture them, they need to see that the only way to get their voices out there is to be able to write in a way that others can hear and receive it.

Olivia: But that takes lots of practice and time. And I wish more teachers were open to letting kids play. That's what writing workshop was to me. It was a workbench. It was a time to play and develop voice. What, what are you trying to convey to your readers? And then how are you going to convey? So a lot of the work I did as a coach and teacher, especially third grade and beyond to middle and high school, I stopped governing a genre or a mode of writing as soon as the [00:39:00] kids jumped into drafting, they could choose any genre that they wanted to convey their idea in.

Olivia: And I think we could do that too. It's just, again gaining and remembering, we know this work. Joy Write was a calibration for me, and seeing you present again, it was a reminder. No, I, I know what I believe to be true. I just feel like we've had it slowly just drained out of us or chipped away. And at this point in the world, we need to find more opportunities for joy.

Olivia: Um, I love the slide you had up it. I wrote it down. “A green belt thrives on benign neglect.”  And, and that, that quote, it really struck me because, you know, what does that mean to you in the context of writing? 

Ralph: Well, one thing I just want to respond to that, yeah, in terms of like the, for the writing teacher's point of view, I mean, teachers are under the gun, and I understand it, you know. [00:40:00] There's always curricular, um, add ons and demands and, and, you know, many teachers have told me that nobody ever takes anything away from them.

Ralph: So it feels like, oh, you have to do this to do this too. Yeah. And so, um, you know, I, I, I feel for teachers. I don't think it's a great time to be in education right now for many people in many situations, not, not everywhere. But,uUm, I, I think that I don't want them to look at this kind of writing as pressure for like, Oh God, more work for them.

Ralph: You know, the kids go away and they write the 30-page piece. Now what I got to do, you know, you know, the way I look at it is you don't have to do anything except to affirm it the way you, the teacher you said before, um, you know, I think you could show interest in it. To laugh, you know, or not even to laugh, but to respond to humanly, whatever, if it's a sad piece, um, you know, just to respond and whatever seems to be appropriate, um, and to validate what they're bringing to it.

Ralph: You know, many of us got into [00:41:00] education. I won't speak to everybody because we're, we're interested in children. Um, I mean, just to get a little bit, uh, you know, nerdy here, um, if you go back into the roots of Writing workshop, the, the, the philosophical roots were people like Rousseau, the Romantics, not romantic like a rom-com, but the romantics who really were interested in childhood as his own thing.

Ralph: Not as like little miniature adults, but like, you know, kids are just like, they're just, they're just quirky, you know? And, so, I'll just like, share like, you know, my own kind of biases. I'm interested in writing more for expression than for achievement. I mean, I know, I know writing's important. I know writing, um, is not going away in this world that we're in and it's being looked, it's, it'll be looked at for colleges and stuff like that.

Ralph: But I also want kids to be able to [00:42:00] express themselves. And one of the things about writing that I love is that you get to know the kids really well.

Olivia: Yes. 

Ralph: You get to know them in a, in a way, in a special way. Um, and you know, that's why, you know, grandparents put their kids there, their grand, or, or parents put them up in the refrigerator. Because look at the way they, look at the way they drew that person, or that dinosaur, or whatever, you know. It's, it's interesting how that's the way they see the world. So, um, I think that there's got to be, room for that. And the other thing is in terms of writing, we don't talk about this too much Is that you know a lot of times I think and you know in the old days people thought of writing as a way to Prove what you know like I can write about you know the causes of the Civil War and I can write a little essay and slavery and this and that the other thing and that shows that I understand it, but actually writing is also a way to discover what you have to say. 

Olivia: Yes, 

Ralph: You know, there's a real interesting thing of what you write, it's generative, you know, you you just [00:43:00] start to you know, things spark and you make connections and sometimes like what you write isn't exactly what you thought you'd write. So I think that that's valuable too. Um, and, you know, I, I just think that, you know, one of the things that I'm looking at now is how can we help kids develop that, that identity?

Ralph: Like I'm a writer. Um, I don't think it should be something that just a couple of kids in the class have that identity. Oh, she's a writer and he's a writer, but I'm really trying to espouse ways that we can have all kids, uh, adopt that identity. 

Olivia: Well, and so I wanted to wrap, um, there was a quote that, it struck me, and it's on page 41. “A greenbelt doesn't have to be managed. Indeed, its very wildness is its virtue. The same principle holds true for Greenbelt writing. We need to recognize its value, establish its sovereignty, and then get out of the way. Leave it [00:44:00] alone.”

Olivia: And, Ralph, you know, I have, I am so impressed with your photography and I have shown my children, it is inspiring. And I think that's another lens that you can see what someone values and how you can slow down and take the time to see the world around you and capture moments. And just the fact that you could put a photo up in a room of hundreds of people and inspire such a beautiful array of response in writing and that you carved a time for us to see and to remind ourselves that we are all writers.

Olivia: I think that was sacred too, because we have to practice this as teachers. We have to practice this as grownups, whether you think you're a writer or not; do your own assignments, try your writing to see how inspired you feel, too. 

Ralph: Yeah, that, that's a big one, you know, um, and I think that what you got me thinking is that, um, [00:45:00] it wouldn't be such a crazy idea for teachers to bring in some of their own Greenbelt writing. You know, their own scribblings or, you know, I have an idea for a picture book. You know, I've been, I've been, I've been teaching for 15 years and I've read all these picture books and, you know, I had this idea and I'm going to, I'm going to work on it. Um, that in, you know, um, so I, I do think that the teacher is a huge mentor there.

Ralph: And I want to go back to what you said about like, um, the quote about, um, you know, the, the benign neglect and just kind of leaving it, um, unmanicured. I think that, um, you know, I, when I wrote this book, I almost called it Feral Writing and a feral animal is an animal that's like a domestic animal that goes back to its wild state and, you know, people joke about, oh, I've got a feral child.

Ralph: I mean, I'm sure you have some of your, your friends have said that. Maybe you have one yourself, but, um, I think that, you know, it [00:46:00] wouldn't be such a bad thing to bring a little bit of wildness back into the writing, you know, um, you know, when kids do this kind of writing, they'll often pull off of, uh, pop culture.

Ralph: And things like that, but you know, that's the world that they live in and it's a way that they can they can keep track of that so if i'm if i'm teaching and my kids are been invited to do this kind of Greenbelt writing I would you know not make it a like a responsibility to read it all but I would I would be interested in it I would try to like, you know in my own way, you know, just kind of be you know, maybe nearby and let the kids know that i'm interested and a lot of times if you do that they'll share with you and um, you know just see what you can learn about the kids.

Ralph: Olivia, one of the things that I'm doing right now for this new book is I'm going to borrow an idea that I got from a teacher that I'm going to ask kids to think of a recent writing experience and to draw a picture that [00:47:00] represents that. And, um, what this teacher that did it before, she noticed was that sometimes the kids are really far from the teacher, sometimes they're closer.

Ralph: Sometimes the kids are smiling, sometimes the kids are frowning. And, um, and sometimes they have little talk bubbles sometimes that are very revealing. So, I mean, you have to be, when you, when you look at that kind of thing, um, you know, you'll get a lot of, insight into your kids. And I also just want to say that I think that when you and I think about writing, and maybe the people who are listening to this podcast, we often think of like sentences on page, the page.

Ralph: But I think the whole concept of writing is, is, is sort of expanding, you know, kids write in different ways now. So you mentioned comics, the kids are going to do a lot of drawings. They're going to, and so, and I think that. Sometimes we, we, you know, we, we tend to, I mean, I'm [00:48:00] a language person, you know, but I think that sometimes kids will express themselves a lot of feelings and, uh, and meaning through their drawings as well. And maybe that's part of the reason that I'm drawn to the photography myself, you know, in my own world, you know.

Olivia: I can't thank you enough for this book. I think it came out in 2017. I pulled it off of my bookshelf to reread it again, because your work is just, it's an iterative, iterative, I can't say the word. Your work is an iterative process for me as a teacher and learner. And so I can go back to some of your books written years ago, but because I'm a different human and I have so many different lived experiences. I can read it with a different lens. Um, and I'm just grateful that you're focusing on the joy and this idea of Greenbelt writing, I think can be everything for our children right now that feel like their choice is [00:49:00] so boxed in. So thank you for the work you continue to do. 

Ralph: You're very welcome. 

Olivia: Yeah. Take care. I've 

Ralph: I’ve enjoyed talking to you. 

Olivia: Same. Schoolutions: Coaching and Teaching Strategies is created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Thank you to my older son Benjamin, who created the music playing in the background. You can follow and listen to solutions wherever you get your podcasts or subscribe to Never miss an episode and watch on YouTube.

Olivia: Thank you to my guest, Ralph Fletcher, for sharing how Greenbelt writing provides essential creative space. For students to develop their authentic writing voice. Now, I'd love to hear from you. Send me an email at schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Let me know what resonated most with you from my conversation with Ralph.

Olivia: Tune in every Monday for the best research back coaching and teaching strategies you can apply right away to better the lives of the children in your care. And stay tuned for my bonus episodes every Friday, where I'll [00:50:00] reflect and share connections to what I learned from the guests that week. See you then.