Schoolutions Coaching & Teaching Strategies

S4 E29: Ending Math Anxiety: Practical Strategies for Everyone with Juliana Tapper, M.Ed

• Olivia Wahl • Season 4 • Episode 29

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Join me as I speak with Juliana Tapper, M.Ed, founder of CollaborateEd and author of Teaching 6-12 Math Intervention: A Practical Framework To Engage Students Who Struggle. Discover Juliana’s revolutionary B.R.E.A.K. it Math Intervention Framework™, designed specifically for students who have experienced math trauma or anxiety. 

Juliana reveals why Algebra 1 is a critical gatekeeper for educational success and how her evidence-based approach helps break down barriers for historically underserved students. Learn practical techniques to build math confidence, engage reluctant learners, and elevate student status in mathematics.

🔑 Topics:

  • Understanding and addressing math trauma and anxiety
  • The five-step B.R.E.A.K. it Math Intervention Framework™
  • How to implement the innovative "Math Wars" teaching method
  • Why building community must come before content
  • Just-in-time vs. just-in-case intervention approaches
  • Strategies for maintaining high expectations for all students

Episode Mentions:

From Juliana:

#6Through12MathIntervention #MathTrauma #AlgebraGatekeeping #MathEquity #TeacherSupport #MathWars #MathFramework #BREAKIT #MiddleSchoolMath #HighSchoolMath #MathTeaching #MathCoaching

When coaches, teachers, administrators, and families work hand in hand, it fosters a school atmosphere where everyone is inspired and every student is fully engaged in their learning journey.

Olivia: [00:00:00] Hi there. I'm so glad you're here. Here's what you'll gain by listening to the very last second of this conversation with Juliana Tapper about her book Teaching 6-12 Math Intervention. Through my conversation with Juliana, you'll learn about her B.R.E.A.K. it Math Intervention Framework™. This framework offers a transformative approach to teaching mathematics, to striving students by prioritizing community building. It establishes confidence-building routines and implements, structured teaching strategies that address math trauma, while maintaining high expectations for grade level content achievement. 

Olivia: You'll leave the conversation understanding why math, trauma and anxiety are significant barriers for striving students, why effective math intervention requires building a positive classroom community first and why the Math Wars Method combines explicit instruction with collaborative learning and a structured format that keeps [00:01:00] all students engaged. Stay with us. I'm so happy to have you join our conversation. 

Olivia: This is Schoolutions: Coaching and Teaching Strategies, the podcast that extends education beyond the classroom. A show that offers educators and caregivers strategies to try right away and ensure every student receives the inspiration and support they need to thrive. I am Olivia Wahl, and I am so honored to welcome Juliana Tapper to the podcast today. Uh, let me tell you a little bit about Juliana. Juliana is the founder of CollaborateEd, a math professional learning consultancy for schools across the U.S. and the State Department of Education.

Olivia: She has served as a math classroom teacher, a PLC, facilitator, professional developer, and instructional coach. Our conversation today will focus on her book, oh, Juliana I cannot recommend it highly enough. I have it right here. There it is, [00:02:00] teaching six through 12 math intervention, uh, practical framework to engage students who struggle. Um, I have told you already, I have been carrying this book around. I have ordered multiple copies for leaders, for teachers, and for caregivers, and I'm having them shipped right to their buildings and homes because it is so powerful - your perspective, um, because you've done the work, you've walked the walk. And you are in classrooms living and breathing this. Your pedigree is incredible with all of the conferences you've presented at. So, it is a high honor to be in conversation with you today. 

Juliana: Well, thank you. Before we hit record, I shared that this was my first podcast since the book has come out and your excitement is contagious and it means the world to me. So thank you so much. I appreciate it. 

Olivia: Yeah, and you know, I also, I appreciate that the book is steeped in so much research, [00:03:00] and so I like to begin episodes by having you share, you know, a researcher or a piece of research that we can connect as a thread for this conversation. 

Juliana: Yes. So many things came to mind when I thought about what I would share and I think I couldn't decide between two. So is it okay if I briefly hit on two things? One is more research. Okay. So I remember like I was a district TOSA, a teacher on special assignment in East San Jose, and my boss, the subject area coordinator, took me to a book party essentially. I'd never been to something like that. It was like at a hotel, you know, it was like a luncheon thing.

Juliana: And it was with the author and it was for this book right here, um, Embedded Formative Assessment by Dylan Wiliam, and I quote it in my book as well. You can see like, you know a book is only as good as as many dog ears as it has in it. And as many post-its as it has in it. And so that listening to him go through his book at that thing, I was like, this is everything [00:04:00] from my brain that I've ever wanted to like put in a book. And he has research to back it, you know? And so he has to back some unpopular things that I also mentioned in the book, but strategies like he really talks about what is true formative assessment. And if we are doing true formative assessment in our classrooms, which means not just collecting the data, but acting on the data in real time to change our instruction, to modify our instruction in the moment, then it has a profound effect on students' success and achievement.

Juliana: And so that has been like - he has a lot of research about that kind of true formative assessment style in his book, and it's like dated now. I think they've come out with like a second edition, but I still rock the first one and it still feels super relevant even in 2025. Um, and then I also just think the work, it's not as much research, but like the work that Elena Aguilar does, um, Coaching for Equity, Coaching, uh, you know, Art of Coaching Teams, um, her new book [00:05:00] Arise, all of that is just so important in all of these conversations. Um, so I think that was, I felt like that was worth mentioning as well. I wanted to, to shout out that it may not be scientific research Dylan Wiliam is more the scientific researcher, but Elena Aguilar's work is just mightily important for all of these conversations around mathematics.

Olivia: It sure is. And I had shared with you in a previous conversation, I've been using your book with coaches as well, uh, because districts that are either adopting new math curricula for the fall or sticking with their math curricula, I think your chapter on Math Wars is really applicable to how we can engage all students and rethink moving away from the teacher edition to making curriculum more relevant. So I'm excited we're gonna talk about that. And I also, uh, 'cause again, dog ears post-its, I'll show you. [00:06:00] Ready? No, you're, there's more, so these are my notes. Before, oh yeah. And so I, I say in almost every interview with an author, I read the book at least twice.

Olivia: I read it once to process and take all of my notes. So one side, these are all my notes. And then the other side, I read it again and just jot down every question I want to ask you, and then I only choose five from all of that. 

Juliana: Amazing. Oh my gosh. 

Olivia: So I have that, but I also note as I'm reading, oh, this would be a really good opening quote, or this would be a really great quote to wrap, so. If it's okay with you. 

Juliana: Oh my gosh, I'm so excited to hear what the quote is. 

Olivia: Yeah. So on page three, um, I think it was critical, at the very top you say, “This is a book about teaching math to students who struggle with math, to students who have been historically unsuccessful in mathematics and who lack confidence and interest in math. If you teach honors math or you don't have [00:07:00] many students below grade level, this may not be the book for you. Every strategy and resource shared in this book is created with those students in mind, the students who come disengaged from the start. The students who are reluctant to even get started, the students who goof off and act out as a way to cover up their struggles and trauma with mathematics.”

Olivia: That to me, frames the book before you even turn to page four. And you had me at go. So with that said, let's talk about characteristics of students who struggle. What have you noticed in your vast experience? 

Juliana: Yeah, I think some of it is hit on in that quote that you picked right there, it's that it's the fight or flight response that we often see from students who are struggling. And now researchers are saying it's fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. And so when students are struggling, that fight response might be the disrespect. It might be the, the throwing the paper [00:08:00] in the trash can. Those sorts of things are the, the acting out, the constantly talking while you're talking. Those are a fight response to students' anxiety that they're feeling about math because they've been historically unsuccessful because all they've had a math, trauma, all these things, and that's how their brain and bodies are processing that trauma is by fighting, by doing those disrespectful things.

Juliana: And then the flight response is - hey miss, can I go to the bathroom? Hey miss, like, you know, ditching our class constantly asking to go to the bathroom. That is actually their flight response to struggling with math and also perhaps stemming from a math trauma or that they have some math anxiety. Um, the freeze response is when they just like, they do nothing. They just like do absolutely nothing. They just sit there, you know, maybe they're, you know, retreating in the back row, hoodies up, earbuds in, um, but they're just not doing anything. 

Juliana: And then that [00:09:00] fawn response might be students that are acting like a teacher's pet that are wanting to hang out with you at lunch, that are wanting to come in during passing period that are chit chatty with you, but actually they don't do any of the work, but they're trying to kind of like get on your good side and fawn and uh, and that, but they don't, they're not actually understanding what's happening in class. And so I think those are some very common characteristics of our kids who are struggling and it's a, a good when those things are coming up, it's a good reminder of, oh, my students have probably experienced a math trauma. Maybe I need to get curious about that. 

Olivia: Yes, yes. It's a great, like those four lenses, they're really good indicators and just to be heightened, have heightened awareness as teachers to look for those signs. The fawn to me is fascinating because this is across content areas actually. It's not just math. Um, and I've had that conversation. I was supporting, [00:10:00] uh, high school teachers as a coach a couple of weeks ago, and we were saying, yeah, this student has kind of figured out the system that if they're always on my radar, they somehow think they're not able or not applicable to do the work.

Olivia: It's fascinating. So interesting. Uh, the other piece that struck a chord with me is around Algebra I and how it serves as a gatekeeper for many children. I've lived this as a caregiver for my older son. I hope I don't have to live as a caregiver for my younger son who's in seventh grade right now. Uh, but my older son really, really struggled with math in middle school. Um. And we ended up reaching out for extra support who was not me because I was not able to provide it. Um, and it was frustrating and I thought a lot about that experience when I was reading your book because not all caregivers, not all families can do what we were able to do. So speak to [00:11:00] Algebra I as a gatekeeper and um, how we can overcome that obstacle. 

Juliana: Yes. It's so multilayered also, and I experienced it. You know, I struggled with math. I had a teacher, no, a tutor in, uh, it was like third grade that was helping me with my multiplication facts and told me straight to my face I was stupid because I couldn't do the drill and kill multiplication paper. Right. And so then that created math trauma for me, which then impacted how I felt about myself as a mathematician in middle school. And, but my mom knew, um, you know, she, my parents have advanced degrees. Uh, they're first in their families to even go to college and they have advanced degrees.

Juliana: And they knew, oh, my daughter needs to be in Algebra I as an eighth grader to be on the college track. And that is, that is my white privilege that is, you know, just the privilege that my parents have of being highly educated and not every kid has that. Like you said, not every caregiver [00:12:00] knows to ask for that extra help. In my parents' case, not every caregiver knows to push your kid into Algebra I as an eighth grader so that they are on the college track once they get to high school. And so for so many historically underserved communities, no one knows about this. No one knows that there's this hidden track of needing to be in Algebra I and successful in Algebra I as an eighth grader.

Juliana: And how are you gonna get that additional support? I had tutors, I had all these different things that my parents knew the importance of Algebra I in eighth grade and passing Algebra I the first time you take it. Um, and so that is like a huge privilege moment right there to just call out. And then when I first started teaching, I was teaching high school math intervention and ninth grade Algebra I in South central Los Angeles. I was teaching in Watts and I realized, oh my gosh, like if my students don't pass this class. Especially, you know, the ninth grader, like if the ninth graders don't pass Algebra I, then [00:13:00] how are they gonna get to all the classes that they need for graduation?

Juliana: How are they gonna get to all the classes that they need to apply for college? And it becomes pretty impossible if you don't pass Algebra I as a ninth grader it is very hard to get to AP classes in math, and we need that for college acceptance. It's very hard for many to even graduate from high school. Um, I have some data in the book that students who fail Algebra I as a ninth grader are so much more likely to drop out of high school altogether and amongst high school dropouts, I think it's like 90% of them or something cite their inability to pass Algebra I as the number one reason why they decided to drop out of high school.

Olivia: It's insane. 

Juliana: It's insane. And so, and there is unfortunately also a eth ethnicity, uh, spin on this as well. There are more black and brown students failing Algebra I than [00:14:00] there are white and Asian students. And like, we need to talk about it like that is as a teacher of black and brown students. Like that became a lived reality for me versus my very white high school. I mean, my high school was pretty diverse that I went to, but largely white and, uh, upper middle class and, uh, just very different experiences and that shouldn't be happening. 

Olivia: No, and you're, it, what you're speaking to is such a reality. And after living it as a caregiver, my first time through middle school, I now make it a mission to shout from the rooftops, all of these hidden secrets to families that are just the first time through middle school, because there's also gatekeeping with Earth Science, right? Yeah. And so it's, it's almost that same lens of if your student is not taking earth science as an eighth grader, it puts them behind on that engineering and STEAM track. It's just [00:15:00] the, these hidden secrets that of privilege.

Olivia: Uh, and I'm, I was so happy to see you call it out in the book. Um, my other favorite thing about you, Juliana, is how authentic you are. And you, you lay it out, man, the train wreck of your first year. And then you pivot and say, but here, here is something that I didn't give up and you came up with a Math Intervention Framework™ and B.R.E.A.K. it. So do you say break it or do you pronounce it : B-R-E-A-K?

Juliana: No, I say the B.R.E.A.K. it Math Intervention Framework™. Because we wanna break the gatekeeping cycles of mathematics. And yeah. You know, like I saw that those are real things and. And my mission has now become to be a math gate breaker, which is the call to action that I put throughout the book as well. And so I want to empower teachers to be able to break those gatekeeping cycles with the B.R.E.A.K. it Math Intervention Framework™. 

Olivia: So tell us what is it? What is the [00:16:00] B.R.E.A.K. it? 

Juliana: So it is five Steps and it's laid out in the book. Each step is a chapter in the book. After, you know, kind of, we set the scene at the beginning and the B stands for Build Community. The R stands for routines to build confidence in students as mathematicians. The E stands for engage every student. Uh, the A stands for Advance your Expectations. As the teacher, we need to advance our expectations, and the K stands for know students level of understanding and that hits on like kind of mastery-based grading and alternatives to traditional zero to 100% grading systems.

Olivia: Yeah, so that's a perfect overview. And what I also want to name is some different models are, like right now we were talking about the climate of professional learning and math and it's, there's a huge push for inquiry - only in inquiry, and we know the pendulum's always a swinging. And what resonated with me about your approach in the way you think [00:17:00] about math, you have a very specific lens on striving mathematicians. And the reason I appreciate that is there's a centrist point for you of where, yes, inquiry is great and it's not what most kids need that are striving is mathematicians. And so you know where some models or approaches are grounded only in inquiry and there's some fluidity of try this approach or try this.

Olivia: The B.R.E.A.K. it is very step-by-step. And you emphasize that. And so I want you just to make sure that listener, I want to make sure listeners understand that you are not jumping to K. You really need to begin with the B. So can you speak to that a little bit? 

Juliana: Yeah, absolutely. I feel like everything, like, like I said in that opening quote that you picked, everything is with students who struggle in mind. I have never taught honors kids. I [00:18:00] have never taught a classroom of on grade level kids. You know, like that has not been my experience. So that is not who I'm talking to in this book. Um, and I think so many times a lot of the really popular professional development books out there for math right now are coming with that lens.

Juliana: They've only taught the honors kids. They've wanted to teach the honors kids. Um, and my experience is not that. And so, um, you know, I get nervous about sharing my strategy sometimes because it's counter to what I hear everyone talking about in the math space. Um, but I just feel like I want to say, have you ever taught math intervention for an entire year? Not guest teaching, not research in the math intervention classroom, but have you yourself actually taught the math intervention class? And if the answer is no, then take their books with a grain of salt. Um, and I think there's stuff we can learn from everyone. Like I love all of the inquiry ideas. I think it is so important.

Juliana: Um, I, I hope it's a way [00:19:00] that my daughters are taught, um, mathematics. You know, I do think there is, it's very important. But when you have students who are in 8th grade, 9th grade, 10th grade, 11th grade, repeating Algebra I, you know, have not passed a math class since fifth grade. I think it's okay that we need to say, I'm not sure this is working for them. And I think maybe we need something different from someone who's actually been in that situation for many, many years and um, so I think that's really important. And what I have learned is most important is that students who are struggling with math, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say they all have experienced a math trauma or they have math anxiety.

Juliana: And so the only way to help break that math anxiety and that math trauma is to build a really positive community in your classroom. And I, I know a lot of math teachers say, oh, well we don't have the time. I have so much curriculum to get through. I have, you know, we [00:20:00] have to get through so much. They're so far behind. And all those things are true. But if we don't pause to build intentional community, it's, we're just gonna pass them on to the next intervention teacher. Right? 

Olivia: Like it's a foundation of sand, right? 

Juliana: Right, it's a foundation of sand. 

Juliana: Yeah. So that's why that is the beginning step for the B.R.E.A.K. it Math Intervention Framework™. Um, and we have to build on it from there. So once we get that community established, like that's why it's not optional. You can't just jump in at Math Wars Method, like you mentioned. That's chapter five. Engage Every Student is the title of the chapter, that's the part of the framework. You cannot jump in there.

Juliana: As much as you wanna just be like, oh, I'm just gonna fast forward to how to teach the math. If you don't build the community and you don't create those routines to build confidence, Math Wars will fail. And it, and it will create more harm than good. Honestly. It's a very powerful tool. Um, but if you haven't built that community, you are gonna create more match drama for your students.

Olivia: I would also say that idea of inquiry, there's so much hope when you [00:21:00] take the time to offer that explicit and you do, you also re-envision the gradual release of responsibility, which I think is beautiful because you say in the book, it's gotten a bad rap and it, I, I wholeheartedly agree with you that explicit instruction is vital, especially for students that clearly have not understood the first few times around. And as a mom, uh, my older son just submitted his last college app and he wrote an entire essay around sitting on a Zoom during COVID with his Algebra I teacher and he as a student knew he had no idea what the teacher was talking about, and he actually expressed that it felt horrible because he could tell the teacher really didn't know how to help him.

Olivia: There was one way of explaining it, and this is a student, my [00:22:00] son, who now wants to go into engineering. He loves math. Juliana. He loves math. He has a giant whiteboard in his bedroom and there are crazy challenging mathematical problems on that board that I can't even begin to understand. He's in all of the AP Physics, Calculus, it, all of it. That never would have been possible if he didn't have a teacher in high school that let him know - No, you're a mathematician. You've got this. And take the time to help him completely re-see who he is as a learner and a mathematician. And that I just, I, it's so important that we help our students re-envision who they are and their math identities. And that's what your approach does. And so hats off.

Juliana: And it's so important, [00:23:00] especially for students of color to see themselves as mathematicians. They need to see um, shout out to my friend Mona lehl. Uh, she has a, a podcast called Mona Math, and she does so much on building identity, especially at the elementary level. Um, you know, she has posters hanging in her room of black mathematicians. You know, just really helping her students feel like they can see themselves as mathematicians and how important that is. Um, and yeah, it's, it's absolutely vital. And another shout out for another book that's on my shelf right here.

Juliana: Um, Vanessa Vakharia recently wrote Math Therapy™, and it is such a wonderful, tangible resource for teachers who, if you're, if you're identifying with this conversation of, I think my students have experienced math trauma, or they have math anxiety, her book is very, um, helpful to how do we help heal that with our students. It's a whole book about it. I hit on it for a chapter. She hits on it for a whole book, and so I, I highly recommend that as a resource as well for teachers [00:24:00] and caregivers. 

Olivia: Thank you for sharing these resources. I also, I, I want to say that you emphasize if it takes even one full year. Just to get the B and the R in place, that's perfectly okay because kids move at different paces and their trauma could run very, very deeply. So I think that's important to call out as well. 

Juliana: Yes, thank you. I was actually, I'm working with a school in, uh, they are in Illinois and I am working with all of their middle school teachers, but also their interventionist. And so we met just yesterday and he's teaching the Tier II and Tier III intervention class at middle school. And I said to him, the most important thing is the B and the R. Like, we might not even get to the other stuff, but if a, if a student can have a positive experience in a math class. You've won.

Juliana: And that might take the whole year and then maybe the next year they will more fully [00:25:00] engage in their grade level content class. And that's when the gains are gonna happen. But like, you know, we might go a whole year with not a whole lot of gains in math scores. Like that's what a lot of administration is looking at. And to be totally upfront, you might not see a lot of change right at the beginning because these are deeply rooted identities that students have of, I am not a math person. I cannot do math. I am bad at math, and it's gonna take some time to undo that. 

Olivia: Well, and think of us as adults. How many of us say, oh, I'm not a math person because we've had our own math trauma. So if we, if you can help us, this book can help every educator, every caregiver, every leader, reverse that cycle for children. And that is, that's something to be said. 

Juliana: Yeah, thank you. 

Olivia: And so it's also really important to engage all learners and you, that was in the first quote, How - talk to us about Math Wars because I think it's fascinating. 

Juliana: Yes, yes. So Math Wars, it's kinda like my signature, [00:26:00] you know, instructional style for how to teach math, go in depth in it, in the book chapter five. Um, and really it stemmed from the train wreck of my first year. I mean, I put a, I opened that chapter with a story about finding a video from my first year, and it was like. I said, sh sh like, you know, however many times I would constantly say, all right, next step, what's five times two? And expect this beautiful choral response from my kids of saying it's 10, Miss, you know, and, and all of this. And it was like one kid shouted the answer at me the whole period long. And I see that all the time in the classrooms that I'm in now.

Juliana: And I was like, there's got to be a better way. And yeah, just had a ton of belief from my administration. I don't know why they believed in me so much, but they did. I had colleagues that stuck, stuck it out with me and helped me and invited me to happy hours to vent, and I don't know where I'd be without them.

Juliana: And then the second year really just being like, well, also our administration, um [00:27:00] forced us to use cold call. Um, and I was very nervous about that at the beginning of my second year to be like, I'm sorry, my kids never participate. You want me to walk around with index cards with their names on them and, and call on them randomly like they're just gonna, they're gonna literally fight me. Like, what? This is not going to go well. Um, and kind of that combined and I, I don't exactly know how it came to be, but it was sort of like, what if I kind of changed the gradual release of responsibility and kind of broke it down a little bit? And, uh, and then I'm gonna include cold call in this, and it was like my second year everything changed.

Juliana: I had like some of the highest scores in our - I was at a charter school, and so we had like a cluster of schools, um, in Watts. And I, like, I was consistently scoring some of the highest math scores for our whole cluster of schools. And, um, so I was like, okay, I think I, I think I've really cracked down on it. And so Math Wars is taking the I do. We do. You do. But a lot of times, especially math teachers, we take that to mean 20 minutes of direct [00:28:00] instruction of lecture than 20 minutes of we do where you're gonna pass out a worksheet and they're gonna work for 20 minutes, and then 20 minutes of you do where you're like, okay, you can get started on the homework or here's another worksheet, or go on IXL or go on iReady, or whatever it is.

Juliana: And that's typically how a lot of math teachers run their classroom. And that's what I was doing my first year and it was that complete train wreck because no one's really paying attention and it, that's a long time for kids these days, um, to be paying attention. And so Math Wars breaks that down to be one question I do. One question we do, and you use the cold call, unpopular opinion, but you use the cold call cards for every step of that question, and then the you do as a team, and I have them work collaboratively with accountability at the end to be like, what's the final answer?

Juliana: Because a lot of times we'll say, okay, you have five minutes to work on these three problems with your team, and then you just end up going through them all as the teacher. So what does that say to the kids? The kids are like, well, I don’t gotta do this 'cause she's just gonna go through it. I'm [00:29:00] gonna copy it then. And that's what they do. They learn that that's what they can do in your class. And so instead when you say, you have two minutes to work on this one problem collaboratively together, and I'm gonna ask for a final answer. At the end of it, you know, that makes it a, there's more accountability and there's more, um, authentic group work that happens.

Olivia: I wanna just say, so this is, I digress, but it does connect. When I read this chapter, I kept tying it to my experience in a spelling bee. And so I have for years loved participating in spelling bees, but I have crazy anxiety of doing it by myself. And what I loved is this format that the spelling be put into place, I was on a team, so you only get one minute to know how to spell a word, but you each team has a big whiteboard in front of them and you hear the word, you hear the pronunciation, the meaning, the definition. And then together you can [00:30:00] troubleshoot. You can write the word a million times on the board and then final answer.

Olivia: It's time. And so even though people may push back on the cold calling aspect. For me, I was like, no, there's a level of accountability and I'm okay because I have my team and I know their strengths. I know their background and their repertoire, so if it's a scientifically-based word, I'm going to lean on this person or mathematically. Right. And so the way you've structured Math Wars, in my mind it was, it's actually appealing to the strengths of each of the individual learners. And oftentimes I am seeing as a coach with the inquiry-based model. There is not a circle back enough. There is not a zip up the backpack at the end of class.

Olivia: And a lot of teachers are saying, what if students have misconceptions? When are those misconceptions being clarified? [00:31:00] So the Math Wars approach, that resonated with me because it answers a lot of those questions. And it is still team-oriented. There's  safety in that. 

Juliana: Yes. Like so many things that I wanna say in response to that. So the first one is a big like, cold call is also probably the number one reason that students have have math anxiety. You know, like, because they've been cold called on previously and it didn't go well. And so in the book, I really lay out what cold call is and what cold call is not because a lot of times teachers think they're using cold call well, and they're not. It is not a gotcha. It is not a, uh, behavior management system. It is truly the kids need to see you flipping through cards. Or Popsicle sticks. They need to see that it is visibly random and you cannot give up on students when they say, I don't know. That doesn't mean go to the next card. That means scaffold back your question until you get to a question that that kid can answer. Show them that you do, you will not give up [00:32:00] on them. 

Olivia: You believe in them? 

Juliana: Yes. You believe in them. You believe in them. Like so many kids have just sat through years of math without a teacher that believes in them. How do you show them? You believe in them. You don't give up on them. You stick with it. They say, I don't know. Okay, we're gonna. What might you do? Okay. What's the opposite of negative five? Like whatever you have to do to get them to be able to answer that is gonna increase their confidence as themselves in themselves as mathematicians, which is such a key part of it. Um, and I love the, uh, the book Choosing to See. Uh, it's a framework for math equity by Dr. Pam Seda and Dr. Kyndall Brown. And what I love that they talk about in that book is the, um elevating student status in mathematics.

Juliana: And that's what cold calling when done correctly and well can do. Because you're not gonna give up on a kid that says, I don't know. That is elevating their status. They are answering a question correctly in public in math, and that is huge. And we all have implicit biases and sometimes we might not even know [00:33:00] it, but we're calling on white kids more. We might not even know it, but we're calling on boys more than girls in our math class.

Juliana: So it has to be visibly random. And it to, when we do randomly call on people, you are randomly calling on girls, that's gonna elevate the girl status in your classroom. You're gonna randomly call on black and brown students more often and that is gonna elevate everyone's status in the classroom. And that is so important. Um, and also, you know, the, you do as a team has a very structured way that you go through that, that also has a way to elevate their status as well. And they're all working together in the group. Um, and then I also wanted to say that one of the things that I hit on in the book is we don't get to, to get to the misconceptions, we don't get to kind of summarize, we run out of time and we don't get to do all that beautiful work that is so important for inquiry-based.

Juliana: And with math intervention specifically, it, that class is very undesirable for many teachers to teach, and so it is given to brand new [00:34:00] teachers. It is given to teachers that don't actually have a math credential. Uh, but they are filling in, they are a body in this classroom, and so if we can give them this book, if we can give them the Math Wars Method. You know, that is a huge tool for them. Uh, they, they may be working through their own math anxiety, their own math trauma as teachers of math. And until they're able to devote enough time to work on that themselves and use a more inquiry-based 'cause, that does require us to think of ourselves as mathematicians and requires a, a really great classroom management, which is really hard for first year teachers, which is really hard in an intervention class where there's a lot of behavior issues.

Juliana: Um, and so I think sometimes. It's just a better fit to go a little bit more explicit, especially just it's real, it's realistic that we're, we have a math teacher shortage and certainly very few people want to teach the intervention class. 

Olivia: And yet you do emphasize in the book that we have to have high expectations.[00:35:00]  We know research supports that when a teacher has a high expectations for their students, it, it raises the bar and something you just said resonates as well. You have to have pretty strong content knowledge in the moment if you're using cold calling, to be able to have that backwards learning progression in your mind of scaffolding.

Olivia: So it's the same, same fight, I'm constantly battling in serving schools that our special educators, our paras, our teaching assistants, need to be people that are supporting students with disabilities and they need to have content knowledge. They need to be super strong in whatever they're focusing on with kids. The best of the best. So I want to wrap our conversation talking about teacher expectations and how that idea of just-in-time intervention [00:36:00] is key in this work. 

Juliana: Yes. So I preach the just-in-time intervention model, which that just-in-time, um, scaffolding was coined by Dr. Juli Dixon. Um, and kind of taking that approach of just-in-time as an intervention model where versus the ju- there's just-in-time and there's just-in-case. So the just-in-time, the just let's go through, just-in-case first, just-in-case means I'm gonna fill all of their gaps just-in-case they missed them in prior grades. So that's when we end up spending the whole year doing fluency and numeracy in the older grades because. I've never had a group of kids that came to me knowing how to multiply, knowing how to do one step equations, but yet I need to teach them multi-step equations, like how is this going to happen?

Juliana: So we tend to fall into a just-in-case intervention. We're like, well, I'm just gonna teach multiplication, then I'm gonna teach division, then I'm gonna teach fractions and all of that. And that's a just-in-case approach to intervention. A just-in-time approach to intervention is when we [00:37:00] teach those prerequisites just-in-time for the grade level content. So yes, maybe we do need to spend a week or a couple of weeks, maybe at the beginning of the year, going through some, how do I multiply positives and negatives? How do I add and subtract positives and negatives? That integer work is important, but as an intervention teacher, you're probably gonna get your kids changed a lot.

Juliana: So it doesn't make sense to do it all at the beginning because you're gonna constantly have  like a flux and flow of kids. Um, you deal with a lot of truancy issues. You deal with a lot of attendance issues as a math intervention teacher. So taking months to do it doesn't make sense. Um, so I encourage teachers, like we constantly have to hit on that. Make your warmups all about integer work and fluency. You know, maybe do fluency Fridays and that's when you can address it. But we need to get to the grade-level content. So if my grade level content is a multi-step equations in Algebra I, that means my kids also need to know how to do two-step equations.

Juliana: They need to know how to do one step equations. They need to know how [00:38:00] to combine like terms, they need to know how to distribute, right? There's also the fluency work, but I'm gonna kind of start with like distributive property for a day. Combining like terms for a day or two, one step equations for a day, two step equations for a couple days, and then I can get to multi-step equations. So yeah, it's gonna take a lot longer and administrators need to hear that. They need to hear that. Yes, it's going to take longer to teach a just-in-time approach to intervention, but that teacher is having high expectations of what all of their kids can do, and that is proven to be so important in increasing student achievement.

Juliana: So yes, it's gonna take longer. Yes. They're not gonna be able to do the whole textbook. Yes, you're gonna have to cut out some content, but it's, it's going to, uh, like imagine when I, I tell the story in the book, um, my first two schools, I taught a just-in-case approach. That's what my administration told me to do. My third school that I taught at my administration two weeks into the school year [00:39:00] starting said, you know what? For your intervention class, we actually just want you to teach integrated Math I to them. We know they all failed middle school math, but like, we just want you to teach integrated Math I.

Juliana: And I, I was like, I. Oh my God. I don't know. I don't think this is a good idea. Like I spent my whole summer planning a just-in-case approach. Now you're telling me, put that in the trash and just teach them integrated Math I. And so I was kind of upset, kind of unsure, but I walked in and I was like, Hey, we're gonna do integrated Math I in here. And I watched their faces just like light up. They were like, so I'm gonna get integrated Math I credit for this class. Yes. And it's gonna fill in like we were a competency-based system. And so yes, it's gonna fill in everything you've missed before I. Oh, so I'm gonna get the same textbook as my smart friend?

Juliana: Yes. Uh, you know, like they, they put those together themselves and they said those comments to me. And at the end of the year, the feedback was all like, I had them do, you know, some sort of heartfelt last day activity and it was like you believed in us. [00:40:00] You never gave up on us, and that's what a just-in-time approach to intervention does. As opposed to your kids in 9th grade, 8th grade intervention, they have seen fractions, multiplication integers, year and year and year and year and year. And you're gonna be just another teacher covering the same thing that they struggle to learn. Instead, what if you say, I believe you can do grade level math and I'm gonna do everything I can to help you learn that grade level math. Like let's go. 

Olivia: It's everything and it's what we need as adults as well. We need someone to believe in us. So over your journey, because this is not your first rodeo, who has inspired you to believe in yourself. 

Juliana: Oh man, that's a great question. Um, inspired me. I mean, honestly, I think back to my first year of teaching, shout out to Animo Watts Charter High School. Now it has a different name, but we were Animo Watts. And, you know, my administrators believed in me when I did not believe in myself. I [00:41:00] had the best across the hallway neighbor, Ms. Edwards, and learned so much from her. She invited me to happy hours with like the cool teachers, you know, and I didn't know why I was in the cool group, because I was over here being like. You know, there's like literally a fire in my next door neighbor's trash can like, you know, just like all sorts of crazy, I got cussed out, like all these things and yet somehow these amazing coworkers and administrators believed in me when I was like, ready to quit and like, I don't think this is the right fit for me. 

Juliana: They saw something in me. I don't know what they saw, uh, but without their support. And I was in grad school at the time, finishing my last year of grad school without like my cohort of us all, we were all teaching in historically underserved communities that was a part of the UCLA program. So we were teaching in East LA we were, you know, I had just finished my student teaching in Compton, like I taught at Compton High School and we were all in these communities and just having everyone have a similar like.[00:42:00]  What is actually happening right now, experience, um, without that community? Uh, it, it's been so many people that believed in me, uh, especially those first two years. I couldn't, I would've stopped without them. 

Olivia: Well, and I think that's what keeps us as teachers and coaches in this field, it's the community. It's the teacher across the hall, buddy. I can picture my teachers across the hall from years in different buildings and that's what keeps us going. Uh, Juliana, I cannot thank you enough for putting this book out in the universe. You are brave. It goes, it goes in line with what I have seen a need for in middle and high schools now for years.

Juliana: Thank you. 

Olivia: And it, it, everyone needs to read this book. Um, again, I'm having multiple copies mailed to people that I know, especially caregivers that feel like what is going on? And this is a resource for them. And so, I think [00:43:00] that's a bridge that often isn't addressed enough with professional learning resources. And your book is phenomenal. Thank you for your work and, uh, for supporting kids and believing in kids. Take care. 

Juliana: Thank you. I really appreciate that. It means the world to me to hear you say that. 

Olivia: Yeah. Well, and I am grateful for your time. I know you're a very busy, busy person, so, um, it's an honor. Uh, thank you so much. 

Juliana: Thank you. 

Olivia: Schoolutions: Coaching and Teaching Strategies is created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Thank you to my older son Benjamin, who created the music playing in the background. You can follow and listen to Schoolutions wherever you get your podcasts or subscribe to. Never miss an episode and watch on YouTube. 

Olivia: Thank you to my guest, Juliana Tapper, for sharing her transformative approach to teaching mathematics, to striving students in middle and high schools. Now I'd love to hear from you. Send me an email at [00:44:00] schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Let me know what resonated most with you from my conversation with Juliana. What does math intervention look like in your school or district? 

Olivia: Tune in every Monday for the best research backed coaching and teaching strategies you can apply right away to better the lives of the children in your care. And stay tuned for my bonus episodes every Friday where I'll reflect and share connections to what I learned from the guests that week. See you then.

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