S4 E30: From Polarization to Progress: How to Navigate Difficult Conversations with Dr. Katy Anthes

In this powerful conversation with former Colorado Commissioner of Education Dr. Katy Anthes, we explore her groundbreaking "Forward Framework" for navigating polarization and finding productive middle ground in education and beyond. 

Dr. Anthes shares research-backed strategies to move from destructive conflict to productive disagreement, explaining why curiosity and humanity are essential for progress. Learn practical skills to address divisive topics in your classroom, school, or community, and discover why 87% of Americans are tired of division and ready for a better way forward. 

Whether you're an educator dealing with polarizing issues or anyone seeking to have more meaningful conversations across differences, this episode offers hope and practical tools to create positive change.

Episode Mentions:

• Public Education & Business Coalition (PEBC)
• Colorado Council of the International Reading Association (CCIRA)
• Possible: How We Survive (and Thrive) in an Age of Conflict & Getting to Yes with Yourself: How to Get What You Truly Want by William Ury
• Jim Collins 
• High Conflict: Why We Get Trapped and How We Get Out by Amanda Ripley
• More in Common 
• Undivide Us
• Belonging without Othering: How We Save Ourselves and the World by john a. powell and Stephen Menendian

Check out Katy’s writing and work with PEBC: 

• A Reminder to America: We Still Agree on More Than We Don’t The work ahead of educators to nurture a healthier kind of politics (November 11, 2024) 
• Forward Initiative → From Polarization to Progress 

00:00 - Introduction to Dr. Katy Anthes & Forward Initiative 

05:00 - Research on Conflict: William Ury's "Possible" 

09:00 - Destructive vs. Productive Conflict 

13:00 - Finding Humanity and Common Ground 

17:00 - Examples of Polarization in Education 

21:00 - Hope in Numbers: 87% Want Less Division 

25:00 - The Forward Framework Part 1: Preparation & Listening 

32:00 - The Forward Framework Part 2: Connecting & Complicating 

37:00 - The Forward Framework Part 3: Rethinking & Creating Space 

41:00 - Closing Thoughts: Progress Through Humanity

When coaches, teachers, administrators, and families work hand in hand, it fosters a school atmosphere where everyone is inspired and every student is fully engaged in their learning journey.

Transcript

Olivia: [00:00:00] Hi there. I'm so glad you're here. Here's what you'll gain by listening to the very last second of this conversation with Dr. Katy Anthes. Through my conversation with Dr. Katy Anthes, you'll learn about why navigating polarization requires cultivating skills in productive conflict. This happens when curiosity, humanity, and complexity replace certainty, contempt, and oversimplification.

Olivia: This creates pathways to progress even amid deep disagreement. You'll leave the conversation understanding that research shows that most people want less division. Why preparation and listening are essential conflict skills, and how the Forward Framework offers a practical approach to navigating polarization and move forward to progress.

Olivia: Stay with us. I'm so happy to have you join our conversation. [00:01:00] This is Schoolutions: Coaching and Teaching Strategies, the podcast that extends education beyond the classroom. A show that offers educators and caregivers strategies to try right away and ensure every student receives the inspiration and support they need to thrive.

Olivia: I am Olivia Wahl, and I am honored to welcome Dr. Katy Anthes to Schoolutions as a guest today, let me tell you a little bit about Dr. Anthes, if you have not already heard of her. Dr. Katy Anthes was the Commissioner of Education in Colorado from 2016 to 2023. Dr. Anthes is widely respected for her commitment to listening to diverse perspectives and her legacy of developing solutions founded on productive middle ground. 

Olivia: Our conversation today will focus on the groundbreaking new initiative that Dr. Anthes is leading; Forward: from Polarization to Progress. It's an [00:02:00] initiative with the Public Education and Business Coalition, PEBC, out of Colorado. Dr. Anthes, I shared with you earlier - - your luncheon that I had the privilege of attending it this past CCIRA rocked my world. I was so grateful to have signed up for that moment with you. And I have a notebook that has about seven pages of notes from just that moment in time with you of quotes and just. You're you're an amazing human being doing really, really important work. So I'm grateful for you. 

Katy: Well, thank you so much. That touches my heart that it, it made an impact and I'm excited to be with you today. 

Olivia: It sure did. Uh, so with that said, I ask all guests at the beginning of the conversation for a researcher or a nugget of research that you're leaning on often these days. Yeah. 

Katy: Yeah, um, so it's not in the education kind of ecosystem, but I think it's highly [00:03:00] relevant to what we do in the education ecosystem, and that's a book called Possible by William Ury, U-R-Y. Um, and it's subtitle is How We Survive (and Thrive) in an Age of Conflict. Um, and he basically maps his whole career. He's, he's probably, I hope he doesn't, I don't know. He is probably 79 to 80 years old. Um, but he mapped his entire career. He, he was the person who wrote Getting to Yes (with Yourself). Um, and he was a conflict negotiator for both Democratic presidents and Republican presidents.

Katy: He did conflict negotiation in war torn countries from the highest level of presidents. Um, and he, this is his culminating work on all the research he has done, all the lessons he has learned on how to manage conflict. And Jim [00:04:00] Collins, who we all know, who wrote, you know, um, uh, all the leadership books, um, encouraged him to write this culminating book because he's like, we need this now more than ever.

Katy: Like, we're so polarized. We, we haven't learned or we've regressed in how we've dealt, how we deal with conflict. And so, um, there's a million nuggets in there. It's a super easy read. He makes it about stories and research and I lean on it often. 

Olivia: Well, I can't wait to actually have it in my hands now. I'm excited.

Olivia: Um, something that was significant in the talk that you gave was the framework that you've crafted, and we'll get to that, but I want to, to ground this conversation in the bigger happenings of the world right now, because, I mean, sitting in your session couldn't have come at a better time. So I, I'd love to start, you know, what [00:05:00] inspired you and along with PEBC to craft the Forward Initiative?

Katy: Yeah. Well, as you said, I, I was the Commissioner of Education for seven years. Uh, most Commissioners of Education last about three years. That's the average tenure. Um, I entered into the Commissionership working for a polarized board, so it's the State Board of Education in Colorado. It works differently in every state, but the State Board of Education, which are a politically elected board hire the commissioner,.

Katy: Which means that, you know, Colorado has red communities and blue communities and it meant that I had a divided board. I had, uh, many Republicans on my board and I had many Democrats on my board, and I had to figure out a way to craft a vision that we could all get around. And that was becoming increasingly difficult as the years went on, [00:06:00] as ideologies kind of took hold and more polarization took hold.

Katy: It was harder to sort of do the, the old thing we used to do called bipartisanship. Um, but so that, that was the seed that started it. But, but we did well as a state board in Colorado, I managed to bring them together. We did a lot of work on how we were gonna disagree. We did a lot of work on like, it's okay to have conflict.

Katy: That's an important part of our dialogue. Um, but it's not okay to demonize human beings. And so we're gonna do so respectfully and we're gonna do so without contempt for each other. Um, and we're gonna listen and, and I have to, I always have to say like, we didn't always meet that ideal. There were some moments that I shutter at and there were some times that I had to like, go back around and say, Hey, that didn't go so well.

Katy: What did we do wrong? [00:07:00] Um. But that was the seed of it. And then as I was commissioner I, you know, you get the amazing opportunity to go around the state, talk to superintendents all over. You get to go around the country and meet with other commissioners. And what I just kept seeing was this polarization was inhibiting our ability to focus on student outcomes and our and inhibit our ability to craft really good plans for our district and implement them because we kept getting caught up in these polarizing issues and that's what took all of our time. That's what took all the school board's time. That's what took all the superintendent's time and that that include includes teachers.

Katy: Teachers were grappling with culture wars in their classroom. How do they teach slavery? How do they, what materials do they use? Do they have a LGBTQ flag in their, in their, um, classroom? And so it was [00:08:00] distracting from the main core of our business. Which is supporting students, making sure they achieve and reach their potential.

Katy: When I stepped down as being commissioner, I wanted to like, I wanted to bolster the skillset to alleviate that problem. Like how do we bolster skills in educators to, to, like my governor says disagree better, you know, how can we, disagreement is fine. It's an important part of our world. Conflict is fine. It's an important part of our world, but how we do it is critical. So that's what I wanted to step into. 

Olivia: You're, so this is a great segue and I'm going to kind of switch here because you did a beautiful job articulating the difference between destructive polarization and the idea of the healthy, democratic the ideal’s intention that drives innovation and education. So could you just linger there for a moment and explain [00:09:00] that more? 

Katy: Sure, sure. So another great book to read if you're interested in this, is called High Conflict by Amanda Ripley. So I, I took this from her, you know, her research around what is good conflict versus what is bad conflict and high conflict, which is destructive is, um is like, the hallmarks of it are, um, you know, certainty. Like you're absolutely certain you're right and you're righteous. You know, I'm right. You are wrong. Therefore I am good and you are evil. You know, it's. It's just illustrated by certainty. There's no room for questioning. There's no room for curiosity.

Katy: You're right. You're never gonna hear another data point that changes your mind, and you express that to whoever you're with. Um, making assumptions. That's another hallmark of high conflict. When you just see, and I'll, I'll use a little bit of a controversial topic here. I [00:10:00] mean, you'll, you see a, a red baseball cap that has make America great again on it.

Katy: A lot of people will make a series of assumptions about that person, um, and. Many of those assumptions probably aren't right. If you actually sat down and had a cup of coffee with that person, you might learn that yes, they disagree with you, that's fine. Um, but you also might learn a lot of different nuances about that disagreement. Um, you know, I, I read a Washington Post article the other day that the one thing somebody voted for Trump on was that he told people he was gonna make IVF free, and she was desperate to be pregnant and she couldn't get pregnant and she didn't have the money to do IVF, and so that's why she voted for Trump.

Katy: Um, that that's just an example of something that's maybe a little outside the norm, that if we don't ask questions, we make assumptions about people. And so [00:11:00] assumptions is another part of high conflict. Um, another other two things about high conflict are it's oversimplifies everything. You're either right or you're wrong.

Katy: You're either for school choice or you're against. School choice. You either, uh, you know, agree, you're either, you either have hatred towards LGBTQ students or you don't. Um, and really nothing is that simple. And that's what William Ury talks about in What's Possible. What's Possible is all the things in between there.

Olivia: Yeah. 

Katy: Um, and most often we're not either or when you dig into our, when you dig into the question. And so, um, assumptions. And then the other really bad thing is that you have contempt for the other person. So contempt is, I think, um Amanda Ripley calls it the nuclear bomb of, um, sort of [00:12:00] democratic ability. If you have contempt for somebody, you think they're evil, you're not willing to work with them. Um, and so you're never gonna, you're never gonna find a solution. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Katy: So that's sort of the high conflict side. The good conflict side is around having humility. Saying, Hey, I disagree with you. Um, and we have very different values and I, but I wanna understand a little bit more about how you came to your position. Can you tell me more about this? Um, can you talk to me about that? Um, Understanding that there's complexity. Um, so in a non-education related topic, like gun control, there's a lot of complexity in the gun control issue. Um, and actually the majority of citizens do not believe it's either or.

Katy: Either there's no guns or there are guns. There's a million possibilities in between those two positions. [00:13:00] And if you're in good conflict, you're exploring those possibilities,. And, and you're disagreeing and you're, and you're going back and forth and you're understanding each other. Um, but you are exploring. And, and then some of the other things are, I always say you can still have passion in good conflict. Some people say, but, but Katy, you know, you have to, you have to fight for what you believe in. And I'm like, you can, you can be passionate about what you believe in as long as you also are curious about who you're talking to and about the, you know, the quote unquote opposing view. Um, so you can be passionate, you can stand firm in your values and you can be curious, uh, about the person who you may disagree with. 

Olivia: That is something that lingered with me long after hearing you speak because that idea of curiosity, we have to take this all the way to the classroom level with our children.  [00:14:00] What do we want the next generations of humans to be able to do? Be in conversation with each other, be innovative, disagree well. And be curious. And so that idea, one of the stories you told was working with a colleague that you disagreed with, you said close to 95% of different concepts with him, but you decided you've gotta get to know this person outside of all of the things you disagree with to find commonality.

Olivia: And I think often is a coach, in my work, I believe I cannot know or coach a teacher unless I know something about them that really matters to them. And if there's been any bad experiences in the past with coaching or the work that we're doing, I intentionally try to find something that they love completely [00:15:00] outside of education. And so, and I may be able to tap into that with my background or not, but I'm going to be curious. Because this work is too hard. These conversations are too important to have if we are not able to say, what did you say? You said like, in the worst moments, you've gotta say, but they, they also like baseball or they, right? There's that common ground. 

Katy: They also, you know, yeah…you have to find, and what that's about is, is, is this idea of belonging. We all humans, whether you're red, blue, green, yellow, we all want to belong. And when you see more destructive behaviors and you unpack that - and I'm not a psychologist, so I, I admit that it's just everything I've read is it's because they're search, they, they maybe have some trauma in their past and they're searching for a place to belong.

Katy: [00:16:00] Um, you know, there is research around like white supremacy groups. Like, the reason people get sucked into that is because they don't belong in a lot of other places. They don't feel they belong in a lot of other places and they're searching for a place to belong. And the recruitment of that type of a group, uh, makes them feel like they belong.

Katy: And so that's how they get sucked in. Um, so it's all about finding humanity with others. And that's what this person and I did. We, we know we disagree on everything. Um, you know, this person was in a position of power, so I had to be careful. Um, it could be explosive. Um, and I was in a position of power. And so we had to find humanity in each other. Knowing that we didn't agree on everything, that means that we could disagree respectfully. Because I see him as a friend, [00:17:00] I still do. Um, and so I'm not going to disrespect a friend or I'm not going to have contempt for a friend. I'm not going to say a friend is evil.

Katy: I'm gonna say, Hey, we disagree on this and here's my position and here's why I think the way I think. Why do you think the way you think and you know what. We came together on some things and we found common ground on some things. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Katy: We didn't change our positions on, uh, maybe the bigger things, but we did understand each other's position. And then because we understood each other's position, I could say to myself, yeah, I can kind of see that. I can see that concern you have. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Katy: Um, okay, well, what if we crafted the policy like this. That maybe, maybe meets you partway and it, and it maybe pulls me away partway, but like, it, it gets us, that's why my tagline is from [00:18:00] progress to, you know, from, from polarization to progress: it's just about progress. It doesn't mean I get everything I want in a decision. It doesn't mean he gets everything he wants in a decision. But if we can have respect for each other, and sort of make progress on our issue. Then I think that that's a better place than how we are sometimes now, where it's either all or nothing. 

Olivia: Well, and I appreciate the, the idea of the, the complexity of the, the conversations we're having and the work, and you use the word nudge, it's like that nudge forward. Um, I want to take this right to the classroom level, to the school district. And so let's talk examples of the - how ideological divisions impact not just, um, classroom dynamics, but I would say teacher retention. I would say even the idea of student achievement as well. So can you speak to that? [00:19:00] 

Katy: Yeah. Well, and and my work is definitely more 35,000-foot view level. Like sometimes it's about, just like you and I talked about before we jumped on, it's about impacting individuals. So that they can model good behavior and they can model good conflict and they can model curiosity. And psychology research also says that modeling is contagious. If you model it, other people will start to model it with you. 

Olivia: I wholeheartedly believe that. 

Katy: You know, come to your…so that's what I did as commissioner. I'm like, I am gonna model curiosity. I'm, I always had a set of questions on the dais at my, on the state board level. I always had a set of go-to questions. I was ready to go because sometimes you get mad. I mean, that's reality. Sometimes you hear something and it, it, it grabs at your value and you're like, oh, I can't believe that happened.

Katy: I can't believe you said that. [00:20:00] But if I had a series of questions written down that were curious, I could go to those, even when my blood pressure was rising, I could go to those and ask some questions. Um, so it is - the impact is about how you behave. So I think about that in the classroom too. How can I help teachers with some tips and tools to model good disagreement, model, good conflict model, curious questions, model um, having differing beliefs and values.

Katy: We're always gonna have differing beliefs and values in this country. That's what we were founded on. Like and and humans are different. Humans are different. And so we're always gonna have that. So we have to lean into the skills on how do we do that respectfully and understand where their values come from and their beliefs come from.

Katy: When you start to understand where their values and beliefs come from you, that that contempt starts to disappear. Like, oh, [00:21:00] you had that experience in your life. I see where you could come to that conclusion. Um, and so, but, but this is happening in classrooms all the time, so I gave a couple examples already, but I mean - we think about the issue of book banning. So that's, you know, librarians and, and teachers are dealing with that all the time. Like, which books should we have in the classroom? Which books should we not, you know, should we have a Pride flag in our classroom, should we not? Um, you know, one of the ones I dealt with a lot is commissioner is school choice.

Katy: Um, you know, open enrollment, charter schools and vouchers. Those can all be polarizing issues. Um, and so, so I lean into those topics sometimes when I'm doing workshops like, okay, let's take book banning. Let's take that example. Let's actually, so where does everybody stand on that level? You know, where do you feel? Should we should or we shouldn't? Or what do you [00:22:00] think? And then we. purposely add complexity to it. What is the complexity of that issue? Okay. Could you maybe see that a parent didn't want a student to access this book without a discussion with them? Or without - they wanna be a part of their child's development.

Katy: Can you, could you see how that might be the case and maybe they don't want the book in the library without that guidance? Um. Okay, could you see the idea of age-appropriate books? Can you see? You know, and so we, we put all of the options on the table to help us understand how differing perspectives could come to that issue. And then we say, let's brainstorm some kind of possible solutions. Um, you know, maybe it doesn't have to be either. Or you take the book off the shelf or you leave the book on the shelf. You know, maybe there is some, you know, parental, you know, permission slips or [00:23:00] maybe there is some age appropriateness or maybe there is a way that if somebody checks out a book they have to talk to a trusting adult.

Katy: Um. So there are, and so that's what I do in my workshops. Like either from classroom, if, if the teachers are dealing with something directly in their classroom all the way up to policy makers who are dealing with more 35,000-foot view issues like. You know, what are the rules around charter schools? You know? Something like that. 

Olivia: So I, I think the other fascinating thing, and I I want to just pause a moment here. You put up a slide because this gave me a lot of hope, um, just of people that want to be involved, and there were some percentages in numbers in that conversation are on the slide. So it was 87%, 67%, 13%. Can you speak to that? 

Katy: Sure, sure. So the, another great resource to give you some hope in [00:24:00] this world of polarization is a website called More in Common. It's an organization called More in Common. If you just plug More in Common into Google, it'll pop right up. Uh, they do research on like, how divided are we really?

Katy: Um, and they actually find not really. 

Olivia: That's what was so interesting to me. Yeah. 

Katy: Yeah, and, and the, the, another great thing is to go watch the documentary called Undivide Us and Undivide Us talks about. There is a multi-billion dollar industry to keep us divided. Because it, um, because it makes money, it elects people. Fear is a good driver of, of change. Uh, you know, we can see politicians that use fear to generate votes and use fear because fear does, it works. I mean, that's the problem. It works. Uh, if we are fearful of [00:25:00] something, we will vote in our interests because we are scared. Um, and so because it's a multi-trillion dollar industry and social media, you know, it gets more clicks and, you know, cable news network gets more watchers.

Katy: The more fear you drive, the more wedges you drive because you want to be with your tribe. You want to be, and you wanna be like, oh, and those other people are horrible. Um, so it, it's a money maker. Uh, what More in Common does is debunk that myth and it says 87% of us, um, are frustrated with that. We don't wanna be divided anymore. We don't quite know, maybe the 87% don't quite know the first steps to take, and so they avoid it. They just like, okay, I'm not talking to my uncle, because we have completely different viewpoints. So I'm just avoiding it. Avoidance is not really a great solution to get our country back on track. [00:26:00] Um, so the good news is 87% of us are sick of it, which means there's a, there's a big group of us that we can harness, right?

Katy: Um, that we can engage with and we can tiptoe into this, you know. The 67% are, are part of that 87%, but they're like, we can find solutions. They're a little, maybe they're a little more confident about, you know, going into this foray. They can say, we can find common ground, like we can do it. I believe we can find common ground. And then sort of that 13% are, you know, that's the percent that they are gonna be. They are what, what Amanda Ripley may call conflict entrepreneurs, where they're stuck in high conflict right now. You know, and they may evolve over time. I never, never lose hope. Um, they may evolve over time, but right now they're stuck in high conflict.

Katy: They wanna fight. They want to demonize the other, they want to drive fear in [00:27:00] the other in order to get the money, the votes. The politicians, whatever. 

Olivia: Yeah. All the things.

Katy: Um, but I find great hope in that 87/67%. And that's what drives me every day to do this work is I just want to harness, I wanna give people a little bit of, uh, confidence that you know these skills. You can do this. You can dip into conflict in a productive way where you're modeling and then it's the butterfly effect. If you model it. Then a few other people model it, and then if they model it, a few other people model it. And that's, I mean, not to be too Pollyanna-ish, but that's what I think is going to sort of heal our country right now.

Olivia: I do too. I do too. And I left your session- I took a photo of that slide in particular, and I've texted it to probably a hundred people because it, that was so hopeful to me. And the other quote I wrote [00:28:00] down that you said, I just wanna read, these are your words: The more and more we don't talk about topics, the less common ground we find. 

Olivia: And so I wanna be in the 67% with you. Katy, I wanna be there. Um, I think that's a huge piece of this work. Um, the other layer I'd love for you to speak to is your Forward Framework, because I think it's groundbreaking and I think it is the solution, um, in the world of education, but across the globe. I think this is how we move forward from polarization to progress. I asked you to take us through an example of a story or a thread to have, um, something to hang our hats on as you explain, but let's jump in. 

Katy: Sure. Yeah. Um, so, and I always say in my workshops and keynotes, like, none of this is new. And that should be a good thing. Like, because it's not scary. Like, you know, these things, you know, these skills. But I feel like over time and with the [00:29:00] polarization of our country and with social media and with the advent of cable news channels, like we, we've gotten away from these skills that we know. 

Katy: You know, so none of it's new. It's all pulled from research that has, you know, that I did not do, but I'm pulling from. So, um, it, you know, the one exa, the example I'll walk us through is, um, in a, in a large, uh, urban city, um, I was asked to facilitate a process on a, um, I would say it wasn't like a super polarized issue, but it was around how, how do we display data and how do we sort of hold schools accountable? You know, how do we make sure parents and community members know how their schools are doing, and what data do we put on the website and how can they access it, and what does that mean for the school?

Olivia: Yeah, that's helpful. 

Katy: And so there were differing [00:30:00] factions in this community. One that was leaned more towards like, no, the more negative data we put up, um, the more it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, you know. Uh, it, it makes the community and the school and the teachers feel bad and, and then they can't recruit good teachers. And so it's kind of a cycle. So that was kind of one-ish side. Um, and then the other side is like, no data; we have to shine a light on what we're doing. It's important to think about all of that. Um, and, uh, and so how do we, how do we navigate this from like, yes, let's show it all on the website. Let's be as transparent as possible to, let's not, like, not demonize, but let's not, um, you know, let's not show all the warts because that can kind of be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Katy: So I walked through a, a multi-meeting facilitation, and the first thing I did, which is [00:31:00] the first part of my framework, is around preparation and practice. So, um, you have to prepare for conflict. Right? And if you don't prepare for it, and, and sometimes it'll hit you a surprise like, oh my God, some, you know, that was really con huge conflict there, but most of the time you can anticipate it. You know, all the way from going to your family's house for Thanksgiving. You can anticipate there might be some conflict to interacting with a parent who might be coming to you because they're mad at something, to a school board meeting. School board meetings are a natural place. So you look at the agenda, and you say, Hey, where might, where might some conflict arise? So I knew that there was conflict already. That's why I was brought in. And so I said I did a lot of preparation and I did some pre-work survey with all the participants. Tell me how you feel about this. Tell me how, why do you feel this way about this?

Katy: Why do you - So I could collate [00:32:00] that data and I could do some sharing before we even got started. 

Olivia: Amazing. Yeah. 

Katy: And I could do some framing about like, we all want what's best, by the way. We all want schools that work really well for our kids. Um, and so this is about the path to get there. Um, so preparation, practice, um, you know, harnessing data and understanding that's, that's part of that. Um, then listening. You know, that's the most important thing. Um, one of the most important, one of the corest tenets of our humanity is that we seek to be understood. That's not seek to be right. It's, it's, we want to be understood. And I had this experience through leading through COVID. I had very angry people emailing me about either side. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Katy: Requiring masks, not requiring [00:33:00] masks. Requiring vaccines. Not requiring vaccines. Uh, shutting down schools, not shutting down schools. I had very angry people on both sides of that equation. And, and I couldn't make both of them happy. Like that, that was kind of an either or. 

Olivia: Yeah. It is.

Katy: Um, and so what I did was I seek to understand them. Even if I couldn't give them the answer they wanted, I would spend time with them in, in some cases that was a, a long email trying to, you know, say, I hear you're, I hear that you're fearful because your son has asthma, and that the, and that the mask, um, exacerbates that. Um, I, I understand that that is really hard and frustrating for you. And here's the other things I have to consider with all the other students in the classroom, 

Katy: And so listening, and I always use this, you know, we're not that good at listening; we're just not. 

Olivia: We're not. 

Katy: So it's a big part of [00:34:00] my framework because we have to practice it. 

Olivia: Yes. 

Katy: We have to practice looping, we have to practice understanding like, Hey, Olivia, I heard you say this. Did I get that right? And 80% of the time the answer is no, you didn't get it right. 

Olivia: Which is crazy…

Katy: Because not only did you maybe hear some different things, but Olivia, you may not have articulated it exactly as you meant it. So by asking a question, we are seeking understanding with each other, but, but we have to go back and forth a few times to get it right. And we often don't take the time to do that. And you know, busy people always say, Katy, I don't have the time for that. I'm like, I get it. I was the commissioner. I had a very busy schedule too. 

Katy: Um. And I would submit, if we don't take the time to do it, you will spend far more time on the backend, um, dealing with it. And so when I took the time to [00:35:00] explain to those parents why I had to do a mask mandate and I couldn't give them the right answer, but here were all the things I had to consider. And I'm really sorry because I know your son has asthma and that's really hard. And maybe there's a different thing we can do for your son.

Katy: Um. Then they were like, oh my gosh. Thank you for responding to me. Thank you for engaging with me. I hear that you can't give me the decision I want, but I just appreciate you talking to me about it. So that ended it, and then I didn't have to deal with it again. Whereas if I was, if I never responded, or if I did, did a really terse, like, sorry, can't do it. Um, I bet you anything that email would keep going that that thing would keep going. 

Olivia: It's so true. It's so true. Yeah. 

Katy: So listening, connecting. I'll try to go through the other parts a little quicker, but connecting is what we already talked about. We have to find humanity in each other [00:36:00] before we dive into the disagreements. So that means you have to actively seek out people who have different perspectives, actively seek out and, and get to know them. Get to know them on personal levels, get to know them; Why are you interested in education? I bet you we have a lot in common there because we're both, all of us are in education.

Katy: And so, so with this. This work I did, we made sure to craft the invitation list so that there were people that actively disagreed. And actively had conflict. Right? Um, and then we complicated the issue. We said, you know, in the meetings, in the first meetings we said, now look at how complicated this all is. Right? Right. We have state laws, we have federal laws, we have, uh, local board policy, um, we have the, we have research that says showing data [00:37:00] and holding folks accountable does work. You know, we, we also have research that, you know, that teachers don't always love going to turnaround schools. So those, those things can both be true at the same time.

Katy: Which means it's complicated. Which means that the solutions have to be complicated, but we actively put that in the room. We actively put those complications in the room and then we talk about it. Um, and then rethinking is another part of the framework, and this is about helping your brain get out of your own ideology. So in some cases it's about, can you imagine why Olivia might think this way? So if Katy and Olivia disagree, Katy, can you think to yourself like, why might Olivia think of it that way? 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Katy: And what that does is it [00:38:00] forces me to get out of my ideological thinking that, oh my gosh, you have to think this way or else you're wrong.

Olivia: Yeah. 

Katy: It's like, no, I have to actively put myself in your shoes and say, why would you think that?  

Olivia: Why. Yeah. 

Katy: Um, and so there's activities we do around rethinking issues. You know, why might people support vouchers? There are reasons why. And that way, and actually the idea of vouchers came from underrepresented communities that didn't have access to private schools. 

Olivia: Exactly. Yeah. 

Katy: Um, so sometimes just getting that. Out there if we rethink, we're more open to new ideas, we're more open to new solutions, um, that can, you know, deal with both issues: With both sides of an issue. And then the last one is creating space. That's the last part of my framework. And you know, I go back to the 13% of people who maybe are stuck in high conflict and if they're stuck in high conflict and you've tried [00:39:00] these other things. Sometimes you just have to create some space. 

Olivia: Yes. 

Katy: Um, and especially if you're a part of an underserved, you know, group or a persecuted group, it's much too personal for you to take this on. You know, I recognize that I, I had, I have a lot of privilege in this. Um, because I, I had a powerful position. I am a white female. Um, but it looks different if you are a transgender person fighting for transgender rights because you have a deep personal connection and you might feel threatened or, um, and so in that case, you have to have strategies. Um, to kind of remove yourself from the situation or take a pause or deescalate or breathe.

Katy: Um, and so there is that moment where, you know, I'm not completely, you know, Pollyanna-ish, that we do have division in our country and sometimes that division erupts in very [00:40:00] unproductive ways. And you have to have strategies to get out of it. Um, wherever you are. So that's the creating space part of the framework.

Olivia: I want to just go back to the moment when I was sitting in the ballroom and something you acknowledge because you, you seem, you're very confident. You believe deeply in what you're speaking to, and you are also very vulnerable, and so I want to call that out, that this work is uncomfortable. It is horribly anxiety-ridden. Um, and that speaks to why you have to be so well prepared. I am someone as well, if I do not feel prepared to what I'm speaking to, I, I will just be a mess. And so I think that idea of: you can believe so strongly in what the work you're doing. And it's also normal to feel like you're going to just like get sick with nerves sometimes, and that's what the preparedness can help with.[00:41:00] 

Olivia: Um, the other piece, I want to just pause and say. I see this framework being so groundbreaking, not just in the world of education. I see this as a way to reunite families and just to find common ground and progress. So that's why I was so jazzed to have you speak to this, because I think anyone that listens can take this into their own life. And I wanted to wrap with a quote. It's on the PEBC site and it's so beautiful, Katy. So this is what it says “We need systems and people who can honor the humanity and people and find common ground for the sake of supporting and improving public education.” 

Olivia: That's what we need, and that's the work you're doing. And that's why I was so lucky to be in your presence in February. But anyone that gets to [00:42:00] sit and be inspired by you, I, I hope this conversation has that ripple effect for them as well. So thank you so much. 

Katy: Oh, thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure to be here and talk about it with you. 

Olivia: Yeah. Take care.

Katy: Yeah. 

Olivia: Schoolutions: Coaching and Teaching Strategies is created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Thank you to my older son Benjamin, who created the music playing in the background. You can follow and listen to solutions wherever you get your podcasts or subscribe to Never miss an episode and watch on YouTube.

Olivia: Thank you to my guest, Dr. Katy Anthes, for sharing how we can navigate polarization by cultivating skills and productive conflict. Now, I'd love to hear from you. Send me an email at schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Let me know what resonated most from my conversation with Katy. Tune in every Monday for the best research-backed coaching and teaching strategies you can apply right away to beta the lives of the children in your [00:43:00] care.

Olivia: Stay tuned for my bonus episodes every Friday where I'll reflect and share connections to what I learned from the guest that week. See you then.