S4 E31: The Power of Language: How Our Words Shape Kids' Inner Worlds with Lily Howard Scott

Discover the profound impact of language on children's development with educator and author Lily Howard Scott. In this insightful conversation, Lily reveals how the words we use with children become their inner voice, shaping their thinking patterns and sense of self. Learn practical strategies to help children develop self-trust, move beyond binary thinking, and embrace a "birder mindset" that empowers them to appreciate life’s small wonders. 

Lily shares powerful concepts from her book, The Words That Shape Us: The Science-Based Power of Teacher Language, including outer shell vs. inner swirls, creating safe classroom environments, and why the most powerful learning happens between ages 0-10. 

This episode offers transformative language tools for educators and caregivers to nurture children's authentic selves beyond achievement metrics.

Episode Mentions:

• Lily on Instagram: @lily_howardscott
• Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett - How Emotions are Made: The Secret Life of the Brain
• David Foster Wallace 
• B.D. Perry, M.D., Ph.D.
• The Tyranny of Metrics by Jerry Z. Muller
• Marilynne Robinson
• The Book of Delights by Ross Gay
• Ralph Fletcher 
• Georgia Heard
• Tyler Rablin - Hacking Student Motivation

Chapters:

0:00 Introduction to Lily Howard Scott 

1:40 The Power of Words in Shaping Children's Brains 

3:00 Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett's Research on Emotions 

5:32 Helping Children Discern Authentic Thoughts from External Pressures 

8:05 Creating Safe Spaces in the Classroom 

11:20 Teaching Beyond Metrics and Compliance 

13:52 Harper's Story: Achievement Pressure's Hidden Toll 

16:05 The Birder Mindset: Appreciating Life's Small Details 

20:35 Practical Applications of the Birder Mindset 

23:10 The Connection Between Bird Watchers and Wisdom 

25:30 Moving Beyond Binary Thinking with Children 

28:15 The Critical Learning Period (Ages 0-10) 

30:30 Outer Shell vs. Inner Swirls 

33:40 Closing Thoughts: The Lasting Impact of Our Words

When coaches, teachers, administrators, and families work hand in hand, it fosters a school atmosphere where everyone is inspired and every student is fully engaged in their learning journey.

Transcript

Olivia: [00:00:00] Hi there. I'm so glad you're here. Here's what you'll gain by listening to the very last second of this conversation with Lily Howard Scott. Through my conversation with Lily, you'll learn about why the words we use with children have profound power to shape their thinking patterns, sense of self and relationship with the world around them.

Olivia: You'll leave the conversation understanding why the way we speak to kids becomes the way that they speak to themselves. How children develop the ability to listen to their authentic inner voice rather than just complying with external expectations and why caregivers and teachers' language choices are particularly influential when children are between the ages of zero to 10.

Olivia: Stay with us. I'm so happy to have you join our conversation. This is Schoolutions: Coaching and Teaching Strategies, the podcast that extends education beyond the classroom, a show that offers educators and caregivers strategies to try right [00:01:00] away and ensure every student receives the inspiration and support they need to thrive.

Olivia: I am Olivia Wahl and I am so honored to welcome my guest today, Lily Howard Scott. Let me tell you a little bit about Lily. Lily is a nationally recognized educator, speaker, author, and self-proclaimed third grade teacher at heart. Lily wants people to understand the power of words and how the words we use can literally shape children's brains.

Olivia: Our conversation today will focus on Lily's newly-released book. It is delightful. I have her right here. I adore this book. Uh, it's so good. It's called The Words That Shape Us: The Science-Based Power of Teacher Language. Lily, it is such an honor to have you as a guest today, to have you illuminate the strategies, the power that our [00:02:00] words truly hold in shaping the children that we have the gift of interacting with. So thank you. 

Lily: Olivia, it is so wonderful to be here. Thank you for having me. 

Olivia: Yeah, absolutely. I kick off every conversation asking my guest for a nugget of research or a researcher that they're leaning on often with their current work. So can you illuminate that for us? 

Lily: Yeah. It may not be a surprise to you because you've read the book and I referenced this person over and over again, but um, Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett, um, who's over at Northeastern in Harvard, her book, um, How Emotions Are Made completely transformed the way I think about language. Um, so what her research reveals is that emotions don't so much happen to us as we create them they're these predictions we make in the micro moment rooted in previous experiences. And the words and phrases that we all have access to can see how our brains predict in certain moments.

Lily: And, you know, yeah, influence our emotional experiences, our physiological responses [00:03:00] to certain moments. And I think reading that book just reminded me that we all have this powerful tool on the tip of our tongues, right? Um, parents and teachers, because of course, the way we speak to kiddos becomes the way they speak to themselves. So I return to her book over and over and, um the lovely thing about writing a book is you get to read a lot of books and I'm so grateful for hers. 

Olivia: Yeah, absolutely. And I think we're at a precipice right now of I, I've said to you before that I always counted on grownups to be the models for children of the kindness and how we speak to each other and exist in this world. I don't think we can count on all grownups for this anymore. We can count on you, we can count on your book, thank goodness. Um, but what this book does, it truly illuminates for caregivers, for educators, for leaders, the language and strategies we can use um, and so that then there's hope for our children.[00:04:00] 

Olivia: And I think we need this now more than ever, so I'm thrilled. Um, I would love to start speaking to exactly the idea of authentic thoughts from external pressures. And so what practices can we instill in children to help them discern between those two? There's a lot of external pressures our kids are facing right now and grownups too.

Lily: Um, that is such a, a great question, so, well, I, I'd love to actually, to, to return to one thing you just said, it's interesting, I think what's unprecedented about this moment is that also young kids are, and teenagers, right, are hearing so much more because our access to media is so much more unfiltered, right. So, I suppose. Yeah, you're exactly right that they're hearing so much language. There's so much ambient noise that we may not want them to tuck away, which is why we're hoping that the adults who are closest to them, their teachers who spend all this time with them, their parents, can be really deliberate about language.

Lily: Um and then to your second [00:05:00] question, you know, I think it's important to normalize for kids, and frankly, I only realized this I think in my late twenties, that we all have cacophonous minds, right? Like all of our minds are full of all sorts of pressures, as you mentioned, and worries and fears, and, and many of them are, are rooted in truth, right?

Lily: But also some of them aren't. And the ability to sort of discern and listen to your own truest, most authentic self. I like to say for kiddos it's your wisest self for really little ones, my five-year-old calls it his inner voice, um, that can, you know, choose what to amplify in your own brain and also choose what to quiet, uh, which is what David Foster Wallace writes about, like, learning how to think means just choosing how to learn, what to pay attention to in your own head. I think many kids don't realize they have that in our agency, simply because they don't have much outer agency. Like they're told what to do and what to wear and you know, in the classroom where to sit and when to line up and when to go to music.[00:06:00] 

Lily: And so I think it can feel really revelatory for kids like, oh yeah, I'm gonna wrap words around the idea of my inner leader. And that inner leader can choose to listen to this worry or this pressure, or to kind of. Yeah. Or to not, and if you can't wrap language around it, it doesn't exist. Um, I remember a third grader said to me, I didn't know I had that wise part of myself. And so, yeah, I think language is just a really lovely place to start wrapping words around the idea of an inner leader when it comes to giving kids that agency, how to choose what feels authentic and right, and how to choose, you know, what doesn't. Does that make sense?

Olivia: It does, and I know because we've talked about our teaching experience in New York City, you taught at 321. I taught at PS 116, so, and we found out we are neighbors as well. This is, it's just, you know, small world. We also though I think both value as teachers to that our classrooms were safe spaces for [00:07:00] children. And so they were able to articulate their truest perspectives without judgment. And I think we both also see, it doesn't matter how old a human being is, that their insights are just as valuable as the person that is 30 years old to their 5 years. So can you speak more to how you created these safe spaces in your classroom? 

Lily: Yes. I mean, I think it, it's a simple thing, but it's a hard thing in a pressurized school environment and many classrooms are pressurized, but I think it's as simple as if you can create a classroom community where kids feel loved and valued for precisely who they are and not for the way that they meet, um, achievement metrics, not for the way they comply with your directions. 

Lily: Like, it's so funny, if we don't want kids to be shapeshifters, if we want them to be able to like, listen to [00:08:00] that truest, wisest, most of them, part of them, then we can't spend all our time celebrating them for how quietly they sit, right? Or how perfectly they write in a way that, that like aligns with the mentor text that we've written underneath the document projector that we, we somehow value compliance so much in school, but then we say, no, no, listen to yourself. And the kid is like, well, I don't know how, because you keep lauding me for the way I do exactly what you tell me too.

Lily: So through all these micro-choices, like I remember this, you know, a kid was like, I don't wanna write an all about book about cats. Um, can I write a play about cats? And you, you know, in little ways you say, sure, she was this brilliant kid who wrote a 26 page, very funny play about cats. Or my student Harper who has synesthesia. You know, can I teach the class about what it's like to have synesthesia? Yeah, sure, sure! That in all these moments where we sort of value the unique contributions that kiddos bring totally outside of our capital “C” curriculum, we are teaching them listen [00:09:00] to that inner part of you that has beautiful ideas to share.

Lily: And we don't have to do it in a totally anarchical way. Like you don't have to throw away all of the curriculum. But I love what Dr. Bruce Perry says that like the most powerful and enduring human interactions are often very brief. That just like the steady accumulation of small moments where you welcome kids to adapt things in this way is so powerful. So I'd say that's something any teacher can do and it makes a huge difference if you wanna help kids listen to themselves and trust themselves. 

Olivia: I also, you know, Lily, you give me so much hope because these shifts, these changes, as you just said, they're not heavy lifts. They, they may feel, they may feel big because we are so used to having to have that control in the classroom. But I, I found, especially with my kindergartners, my first graders, the more autonomy they had and [00:10:00] trust that they felt I had in them to run the room, to have full control over conversations around a book we were reading or a mathematical problem, we were troubleshooting; they rose to the occasion every single time. And I, I really, kids, I would much rather hang out with children often than grownups because children see - they’re eternal optimists in many ways. They see possibility and don't get as hung up on all the what ifs or we can't. It's, it's, no, we can do this together.

Olivia: So I, I, I feel that deeply and I also think that the other layer I hear you speaking to is that self-worth and really recognizing each of the humans in our classrooms. But I think grownups need to work on this more too. How are we recognizing [00:11:00] our uniqueness instead of these metrics or these superficial metrics? So how in the world do you coach children around that work? 

Lily: I mean, it's you, you're, so I wanna do my like me too third grade signal with everything you say. Um. Well, I think first of all it's like, um, one of my favorite books is The Tyranny of Metrics by Jerry Muller, and he writes much that is important can never be measured, and much that is unimportant can be measured.

Lily: And I think the first thing we need to do is like, cool it with the high stakes tethered to measurements for, for, for teacher evaluation. Because if the teacher herself feels completely paralyzed, like, oh, we've gotta get through this unit or else, of course the kiddos won't have agency. So. This may sound a little anarchical, but with the teachers I support, I, I remind them of something a student once said, um, which is that I look like I'm listening, but I go into the rowboat in my head and I row away to a more interesting place.

Lily: And I say that to illuminate, like even if you do everything perfectly [00:12:00] and you're sort of minute to minute where you think you should be, how do you really know that it's working right? Like, how do you really know that kid isn't just thinking about colossal squids or something more interesting than that lesson? Like what you think you're doing, you know, maybe it's reaching a few, but it certainly isn't reaching everybody. So close your door, listen to yourself and teach the kid, not the curriculum. If these kids are all interested in red-tailed hawks design for a little mini-unit about red-tailed hawks.

Lily: Write some poetry about them, that it's so much more interesting for the teacher to have that autonomy and respect what the kiddos are offering and adapt curriculum accordingly. And then the teacher models it for, for the students. And it's funny because what I've been thinking a lot about is that even for the kids for whom it looks like it's working like super, um, you know, those really sort of high achievement, I'm gonna meet metrics in the most glittering way kiddos. Who are, who are so good at, at writing the thing in the way that mirrors, you know, the mentor text as we were talking about, [00:13:00] is it really working for them or is it, is it its own form of toxicity? Like, um, I mentioned my student Harper, a brilliant, very high achieving student, and I had told myself a story about her, like, school is easy for her school’s where she feels successful.

Lily: She's, she's, she's above grade level and everything. And she wrote this poem between her wisest self, which she called her president, decider, and the pressure that she feels. And she describes pressure, pressure as um, red faced, open mouthed, yelling at her, raise your hand higher, show that you care, show that you care. And I'm like, well. It turns out this really wasn't working well for her either. Right. So it's sort of like all kiddos I think, benefit from this more flexible approach to teaching and learning, even those who seem like they're soaring. 

Olivia: Yeah, and that also allows space for the uniqueness of everyone's [00:14:00] strengths as well, because then Harper, for example, wouldn't feel like she has to be perfect and the strongest at everything. I think a huge misstep we make as grownups is we are not focused on collaboration enough. It's that myopic like, I am the best. It's all about the self and it's, it's so shortsighted because that's not the way innovators innovate..

Olivia: It's not right? And so I guess that's fascinating to me in that nuance. And then one of the analogies you also speak to in this book that's so beautiful, it's the idea of slowing down and appreciating just looking at the smallest details like we're bird watchers. And if I could jump back into a classroom with my own children tomorrow, I would embrace this idea because [00:15:00] we're in this fast-paced world and we do not slow down enough. I told you that I was just in Florida. I had two days, that's it. Two days. Um, and I was going to soak up every moment on the beach that I possibly could.

Olivia: In the warmth, in the sunshine. And I continued to catch myself wanting to get steps, walk, walk, walk. But then I'd get derailed because there was the prettiest shell. And then there was another shell that was even more beautiful. And so I finally just said, what are you doing? And I stopped walking and I'm like, who cares about steps? You're on vacation anyway. Let it go. But I, I just like planted my feet and took a moment to really like get down and look at the intricacies of every tiny shell. And it was this moment of just fascination that I wish we allowed for more in our classrooms. That [00:16:00] curiosity, I guess. Um. So how do you coach around that bird watcher perspective for that appreciation of nature?

Lily: Yeah. Uh. I love, I feel like this brings us back to the metric point. Like you have the thing on your hand, right? That's like meet the steps. Meet the steps. It takes a lot of energy, right? To be like, no, I'm not gonna meet that today. I'm gonna do this other thing. First of all, thank you so much for asking about the, uh, the birder mindset, uh, chapter, because I'd say it's the most idiosyncratic chapter. But it is to me, my favorite because I mean every philosopher, and I'm talking like for hundreds of hundreds of years now across cultures, has come to this conclusion, which is that if you know, if you can manage to mo to notice like small moments of beauty or humor or delight that are sort of cloaked in mundanity, then you have figured out a big secret to being alive [00:17:00] because you can actually be present.

Lily: Like Tolstoy called it gold in the sand, you know? Um, Thornton Wilder in our town, you know, he asked like, does anybody realize being alive while they live it. As Emily, you know, smells the iron, and here's the clock ticking. Marilynne Robinson, you know, who I'd argue is like our greatest living philosopher, says, you know, that's an interesting world, it deserves all the attention we can give it. And what's so interesting is that before they go to school, kids are so good at noticing gold in the sand, like as you said, they will pay attention to that show, and they'll ask questions like, well, who lived here? And, and, and why does it look like this? And has it been around for a thousand years or three thousand years?

Lily: And or they'll stare at a beetle and like beetles are amazing. They survived the K-T extinction. Yes, you should pay attention to them. And then you go to school and it's sort of like sit down, comply, follow directions. And that part of their brain that does find delight in things that are truly delightful and astonishing.[00:18:00]  You know, we tamp that down and so. I think if we, if, if you can label something as having value, then you can name it and you can lean into that way of thinking. And so when I say to kids, turn on your birder mindset, what will you notice? What we're trying to say is your noticings matter. Like, uh, whether it's a sentence in a poem or something you see on your walk to the lunchroom, that just really makes you laugh that.

Lily: That if you turn on your birder mindset, because we find what we look for, you're gonna find something small that amuses you or that you find beautiful or interesting and I care about what you notice. Like, yes, maybe you could write about it, but also maybe not. This idea of telling kids early - no reactivate that part of your brain. Hold onto it. I think it's a gift for now 'cause it makes their attention obviously much sort of longer and stronger at school. School’s more interesting. But it's really a gift for always. 'cause once you turn on your birder mindset. Your birder mindset is turned on. It's like Ross Gay says in The Book of Delights, the more you [00:19:00] study delight, like the more delight there is to study.

Lily: And for me, it was my children that kind of reactivated this part of my brain and I just hope they hold onto their birder mindsets. Um. And I, I, I love the idea of teachers telling kids, turn on your birder  mindset. What will you notice? Because yeah, it does two things. It helps them find those moments of delight, but it also reminds them what I notice has value, and it's nothing my teacher can notice. It's only what I notice. 

Olivia: You the reading that chapter, I, I just, the whole time I, I remember I was reading the book and I was sitting in my younger son's trumpet lesson, and so I had this beautiful Mozart trumpet accompanying reading your book. I thought I was like in a dream and it brought me back. I remembered that when, um, I had a particular first grade class, we were going to be kicking off a poetry unit of study.

Olivia: And I went to the dollar store and got those little memo notebooks, and then I went and got the most beautiful threads and yarns and they wore these little [00:20:00] notebooks with the golf pencils around their neck for a full month. And what this idea of a birder mindset reminded me of is I would probably also offer children the idea. Even in kinder, they could sketch and draw. What are you noticing in the world around you because. And they wouldn't have to write in it. It would be purely by choice. But I think so often, you and I have alluded to writing a few times in this conversation, and we have children that may think that they struggle with ideas for generating writing.

Olivia: But it's really just they need to know that the mundane is a beautiful, beautiful place to start and write about. So I would have them if they chose to jot down, what are you noticing with your birder mindset, right? Every day, draw it, jot words, phrases, anything that can help you. And then during writing workshop, they could have that birder [00:21:00] mindset catcher out or so something. 

Lily: Love it. I love it. That's such a great idea. The necklace. The necklace is so inspired. 

Olivia: It was adorable. The little memo notebooks, they were like, I don't know, 10 cents. It wasn't anything crazy. Um, with the golf pencils that fit just perfectly within the coil, that is fine. It's so satisfying. Um, but I just, I think, is adults also taking the time, and I know you and I both admire Ralph Fletcher so much and um, and Georgia Heard as well is a poet. Um, and I think I've talked to Ralph a few times about his photography that slowing down and capturing these beautiful moments with creatures and nature that you have to be very patient as well.

Olivia: So I don't want to leave this moment with you without mentioning, all we hear these days is that children don't have stamina. Children are so impatient. They need [00:22:00] like things right away. This is the perfect way to counteract that need. You have to slow down. You have to just take a moment and breathe into that idea of a birder mindset. So I think there are so many different benefits that come with this. Um… 

Lily: I love that you mentioned Ralph, like if I could think of anybody I know who moves through the world with literally a birder mindset, it's Ralph Fletcher. I mean, he finds, and then he finds the beauty because he looks for it. And it might be a great horned owl. Yeah. Or it might be he just, uh, you know, like, I don't know if you've seen his recent picture of these like elephants crossing the river, so it might be that. But it also might be something really small. Um, he takes pictures of much more sort of ordinary birds all the time that are equally beautiful. And I love that he models for the teachers he supports and for kids, because he actually sent my boys a book of his, of his photography and we look through it all the time.

Lily: [00:23:00] Um, that, that he models I'm a grownup who is so interested in paying attention. And because I look for things, I find them. Um, and that's just a reminder, even on the hardest day when we don't feel like we have agency over terrible things that are happening to us, we do have the ability to look out and, and look for beauty.

Lily: I mean, um, my, we, we went on a birder mindset walk the other day, um, me and my two sons, and they were pointing out like those square boxes of rat poison, which are kind of interesting and shadows, but also like that like shimmery part of a pigeon's neck. 'cause there are pigeons everywhere and it is beautiful. It turns out it's a million-year-old adaptation. It's like a lattice work of light waves. It's so cool. And, and neither, you know, they're both pre-writers who feel like their, their contributions in this way do matter. 

Olivia: They matter. I, you're also reminding me, um, to put on your radar, Tyler Rablin and he wrote Hacking Student Motivation. But I've learned about him, he is also a nature [00:24:00] photographer. I always, I knew he loved to hike, but his photography is insane and he captures gorgeous photographs of birds and nature. So it's fascinating, I guess we're finding a trend with those that care deeply about really getting to the heart of what matters when we know children and slowing down and, and having that birder mindset. It’s fascinating.

Lily: I just have a theory too that like anybody who pays attention to birds is sort of enlightened. And I'm not including myself here 'cause I'm like a recent bird fanatic, but I've been putting it together. Like people in my life I've known for many years who love paying. All of them are wise and centered and like have perspective and I'm like, maybe it's 'cause you've been looking up and out at birds and not at your phone. I dunno. 

Olivia: Well, and, and the idea of looking up, because I also experienced that on the beach. I was so determined to just go straight and not look up or really around, I was missing out on [00:25:00] everything. And so when I, when I finally did look up or just look out and take in the surroundings, that changed the moment. It changed the feeling, it felt less pressurized. It was just fascinating, 

Lily: But it's sort of a metaphor for exactly what we were speaking about. Like instead of just chugging forward with curriculum, like stop, look up, look around, look at the kids, and adapt it. You know what I mean? To fit the particular tender human beings in your care.

Lily: Um, and I suppose one reason why that's hard too is because we don't train, you know, we don't train teachers like doctors. It does take confidence and, and skill and experience to feel comfortable shifting from the plan. So it's all kind of, there are a few problems woven together when it comes to why why we feel a sort of discomfort letting teachers be professionals who make their own choices in the classroom. Um, but when it does happen, it's, it's really beautiful. 

Olivia: Well, and that's why the more I write for myself, [00:26:00] I am honing in on, you know – what, how can we honor teacher expertise? One of the top qualities is that idea of adapting based on the needs of our children. It's not rocket science. But I think we have to go back to honoring teachers' expertise instead of a box curricula option. Right. And I think the other piece that we are greatly struggling with as a society right now is the idea of the binary. 

Lily: Oh yeah. 

Olivia: And in that there's a right or wrong. And I, I just had the privilege of interviewing Dr. Katy Anthes and she spoke so eloquently to the complexity that there is, there are no issues that are black and white or yes no. And that people that try to polarize just completely negate the complexity. And so something else I thought was just next [00:27:00] level that you coach around in this book is really nurturing that complexity with children to move beyond the binary. So how do we do that? 

Lily: Yeah, well I think if you, you know, if you can give kids those, that language early to do what Barrett says, sort of make that energized determination, that seeds, how your brains predict. Um, one of those language couples for me is just the idea of telling a second grader both/and intent versus impact.

Lily: It can be true that things that feel like they're opposites do truly coexist. It is both true that I'm having trouble decoding right now and that I am a fantastic reader-thinker. It is both true that when I said Yelp about my quiz brain, I was truly, I mean my, my quiz grade, I was truly just excited and it is true that that really hurt your feelings. I think giving kids, again, language to wrap around the idea that these, these contradictory elements exist at once, it kind of [00:28:00] counteracts this very tempting thing we all do, which as you said already, is to just think in binaries. And the more we can give kiddos language to do it, the more that they establish thinking patterns that are actually nuanced.

Lily: And you do that when you're seven. It's a heck of a lot easier to do it when you're 17 and when you're 27, and particularly in this moment where the way we consume information is you know, and so many have written about this, but it's lacking in nuance because it's in 140 characters and you can't fit much nuance in there. Or because we're trying to spike outrage, we're trying to spike re-shares. And again, it's not that titillating to reshare something that's, you know, kind of in the middle, offering value to both perspectives, that there are so many forces at play that move kids away from nuanced, the more we can help them lean into nuanced thinking now, um, the better.

Lily: And of course you can do this so easily in a read aloud, right? Um, as you evaluate characters and you introduce [00:29:00] this idea of, of both and intent versus impact, or even just because like in that, that book Save Me a Seat. So many teachers read with kids and there's this sort of bully character named Dylan. There's a moment in the car, brief moment where his, his mom totally dismisses him and ignores him, and just saying something as simple as, okay, you know, it's interesting just, just because Dylan acts all powerful. It doesn't mean that he feels powerful or just because somebody's outer shell projects one thing their inner swirls, their insides are always invisible.

Lily: And keep that in mind when you're telling a story about somebody else. And I think that elementary schoolers have this magic power that we forget about probably because of sexism, and we like don't think of it as serious enough or serious learning begins in high school. But the most serious learning of kids' lives happens zero to 10? When our capacity for neuroplasticity is most remarkable, like that's when their thinking patterns are established, their sense of [00:30:00] self, the stories they carry forward. And elementary school teachers spend like a thousand hours a year in the same room with the same group of kiddos there, those kiddos aren't floating around.

Lily: And so elementary schools, teachers just have so much influence as kids develop their sense of self and, and sort of lean into thinking patterns that are nuanced or not. And so I hope also that this book resonates as a tribute to early childhood teachers and elementary school teachers and. The wonder that they can sort of facilitate that sometimes isn't, isn't properly acknowledged, um, culturally. 

Olivia: It does, and I also think about, you just spoke a bit, I heard you say the outer shell and inner swirl, and so I need you to speak to that because it's such a beautiful analogy in the book. Or metaphor I would say. 

Lily: Yeah, so that's, you know, it's funny, it's as kiddos are, again telling stories about characters or [00:31:00] each other, if you can, if you have language to describe something, it's just a lot easier to lean into that way of thinking. Um, and so saying to kids, you know, we all have an outer shell. It's kind of like our exterior self. Um, and it's easy to see, right? And then we also have this, this inner, this inner, you know, we have inner swirls. They're just the parts of us that aren't so easy to see. And remember that sometimes there isn't tension between our outer shell and inner swirls. But sometimes there is, and I think when kids realize that, they just tell more nuanced stories about each other.

Lily: So I'll never forget my student Alexis said, um, you know, just because everybody looks calm on their outer shell doesn't mean they are, we just can't see their in our swirls. Or my student, Leah said, it's important to share about your inner swirls because if you don't share about them, then other people won't have a mirror and they'll think that their inner swirls are only theirs. But actually you have [00:32:00] something, you know, you have something in common. And she was saying something so sophisticated, she was alluding to this point James Baldwin famously makes that like, it's what you think alienates you is what connects you. And so giving kids that language around. Yeah. You know, when I feel comfortable, I am gonna share about my inner swirls and see what connections or illuminations that triggers.

Lily: And, and what I love about this language is even, even little ones can use it like a young child said, Gaston loves Belle because of her outer shell, but he doesn't know her inner swirls at all. And he may keep that in mind, you know, as he looks at a classmates' behavior and says, huh, you know. Why is that person doing that? As opposed to just thinking, oh, they're acting rude, they're turning over the table. They must be bad. Well, sure that's their outer shell, but what's going on inside? Sometimes there really is a gap there. Um, 

Olivia: I, I love that you just also segued to that idea of outer actions as outer shell, inner swirl as like the cause sometimes that can [00:33:00] be a better descriptor. So that helps us again, pause and not make judgment. So the conversation really has come full circle, Lily, because we began with the idea of safe spaces. So I, I just - I can't say enough about the book. It's such a clean structure and I appreciate that so much.

Olivia: It's very predictable. I love that you talk in examples of curricula as well. You can really bounce around in the book based on your needs, which is helpful as well. Um. And you, I can hear you. I could hear your voice as I'm reading. You're such a beautiful storyteller. Um, and the book also comes to life with your children, and that was what was magical for me because any teacher, any grownup that reads this, there's joy exuding from every page. So I cannot recommend the book highly enough. You as [00:34:00] a, a human, doing this hard, beautiful work, um, I'm just lucky to know you. So thank you so much for taking the time to have this conversation 

Lily: You've made my whole day. I mean, I feel like I have so much to learn from you and could talk to you for hours, and I think, you know, I guess this last idea maybe I'd wanna contribute is just that back again to this idea of letting go of the metrics is like you say the words and the kid is never gonna say Thank you so much for telling me. That's really gonna help me better navigate my inner life. Like, we're just gonna look at you blankly and like just being comfortable. Or you know, maybe you'll hear 'em try it on in a few weeks, or you'll see it in their writing, but just helping kids or helping teachers remember that you offer it and then it kind of, it's like it's, it's out there and it's mysterious the way this language will nestle into kids’ inner lives. You may not always see it right away.

Lily: But like 20 years from now, they may remember, um, you know, to listen to their inner voice or [00:35:00] their wisest self, or they may remember that just because you know, someone's outer shell is one thing, doesn't mean that that aligns perfectly with their inner swirls and sort of having faith that, that you're offering will live on in ways you can't quite see. I think that, I think we should remind teachers of young kids of that more often as opposed to sort of itching for proof right away of their impact. Right? 

Olivia: Lily. It's so true, and I, I still, I get emails and people, the students that reach out on social years later. I recently had a student that was in my first-grade class, one in my, one of my first classes at 116, and she is getting her graduate degree in education. She remembered the tiniest moments in our classroom. And there were inner swirl things, going on in her mind that I had no idea as a 20-something teacher. And it was such an honor to have her share her [00:36:00] inner swirls with me. Now 20 some years later, it's just fascinating. Oh yeah. So there is. Absolute proof into what you just said. And our words matter. Our behavior matters. Our grace and patience with children matters. So thank you for everything and uh, I can't wait to continue our conversations as the years go on. 

Lily: Me too. And I also love, like back to the idea that it's the small moments that matter the most. Like you just said, she didn't remember that huge project we did, or that 45-minute long discussion. She remembered these micro moments with you. Like that's what she held onto. I love that. What a gift to you that she reached out. It, 

Olivia: It, it, it's amazing. Yeah, it was, it was powerful. Yeah. That's why we do this work. Right. 

Lily: Yeah, thank you for having me, Olivia. 

Olivia: Yeah. Take care Lily. Bye. Schoolutions: Coaching and Teaching Strategies is created, produced and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Thank you to my older son Benjamin, who created [00:37:00] the music playing in the background. You can follow and listen to Schoolutions wherever you get your podcasts, or subscribe to never miss an episode and watch on YouTube. Thank you to my guest, Lily Howard Scott, for sharing how we can create classroom communities where kids feel loved and valued for precisely who they are and not for the way that they meet achievement metrics.

Olivia: Now I'd love to hear from you. Send me an email at schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Let me know what resonated most from my conversation with Lily. Tune in every Monday for the best research-backed coaching and teaching strategies you can apply right away to better the lives of the children in your care. Stay tuned for my bonus episodes every Friday where I'll reflect and share connections to what I learned from the guest that week. See you then.