S4 E32: The Secret to Meaningful Coaching Conversations with Dr. Haesun Moon

In this transformative conversation, Dr. Haesun Moon reveals how her Dialogic Orientation Quadrant (DOQ) model can revolutionize difficult conversations in polarized environments. Learn how to navigate from troubled pasts and dreaded futures toward resourceful pasts and preferred futures. 

Dr. Moon, a Harvard faculty member at the Institute of Coaching and a leading expert on evidence-based coaching, shares practical techniques for transforming dialogues in schools, workplaces, and personal relationships. 

Discover why acknowledging negative experiences without exploring them creates powerful connections and how finding calibration points in polarized conversations can bridge even the most divided perspectives. 

This episode offers essential strategies for educators, coaches, parents, and anyone seeking to improve dialogue in our increasingly polarized world.

Episode Mentions:

• Janet Clare Beavin Bavelas
• Conference: TLCx - Teaching, Learning, and Coaching (with Jim Knight) in Toronto

Check out Some of Dr. Moon’s Published Writing:

• Coaching A to Z: The Extraordinary Use of Ordinary Words by Dr. Haesun Moon 
• Team Coaching with the DOQ: Learning with the Hungarian Team by Dr. Haesun Moon

Chapters:

0:00 - Introduction to Dr. Haesun Moon 

2:08 - Research foundations and influences 

3:28 - Origin story of the DOQ model 

7:24 - Evolution and structure of the four quadrants 

12:25 - Dialogue in polarized environments 

17:00 - Navigating disagreement through calibration 

22:10 - Specific techniques for intentional dialogue 

27:40 - How to respond to dreaded futures 

32:30 - Applying the model with children and students 

35:40 - New frontiers: politics and semiotic warfare 

38:40 - Conversation as our dwelling place

#DialogicCoaching #DOQModel #HaesunMoon #CoachingTechniques #DifficultConversations #SolutionFocused #TeamCoaching #CommunicationSkills #ActiveListening #TransformativeDialogue #EducatorCoaching #DialogueTechniques

When coaches, teachers, administrators, and families work hand in hand, it fosters a school atmosphere where everyone is inspired and every student is fully engaged in their learning journey.

Transcript

Olivia: [00:00:00] Hi there. I'm so glad you're here. Here's what you'll gain by listening to the very last second of this conversation with Dr. Haesun Moon. Through my conversation with Dr. Moon, you'll learn why her Dialogic Orientation Quadrant model provides a powerful framework for transforming conversations by helping us navigate between troubled pasts and dreaded futures toward resourceful pasts and preferred futures, ultimately creating more meaningful and productive dialogue in polarized environments.

Olivia: You'll leave the conversation understanding why the DOQ model maps conversations along two axes. Why effective dialogue requires acknowledging without exploring negative quadrants and why finding calibration points in polarized conversations creates connection. Stay with us. I'm so happy to have you join our conversation.

Olivia: This is Schoolutions Coaching and Teaching Strategies, the podcast that extends education [00:01:00] beyond the classroom. A show that offers educators and caregivers strategies to try right away and ensure every student receives the inspiration and support they need to thrive. I am Olivia Wahl, and I am humbled to welcome Dr. Haesun Moon to the podcast.

Olivia: Let me tell you a little bit about Dr. Moon. Dr. Moon is a leading expert and educator on evidence-based coaching and the use of language in transforming workplace dialogues. A Harvard faculty member at the Institute of Coaching, she has authored both academic books and practice-oriented manuals for dialogic intelligence.

Olivia: Our conversation today will focus on her simple coaching model, the Dialogic Orientation Quadrant, or DOQ that has transformed the way people coach and learn coaching worldwide. Dr. Moon, this is a moment in time [00:02:00] I have been looking forward to for months. I carry your book of joy and goodness with me everywhere I can.

Olivia: I've bought, bought multiple copies for friends and colleagues. Um, this is for another conversation, but I do wanna put it out there for folks, Coaching A to Z. It's one of my favorites. Um, I really feel like this is a time in history where your model could be used in a myriad of ways to foster dialogue and conversation in the most polarized places. Um, so I am just, I'm so honored to welcome you today. 

Haesun: Thank you so much for actually inviting me. And I think as you say, uh, the time and space that we are in right now, I find it strangely relevant. I wish it was not as relevant. Right? But it's strangely relevant [00:03:00] and it's not nice to have. It's actually quite, um, it's critical, that we hold those conversations. And I guess for me, I really want to see people having more conversations, but not just more, but have them better. So, yeah, I think it's a perfect time to do that. 

Olivia: Perfect time. It is a perfect time. Uh, I wanted to ask you, you know, you steep your work; You are a researcher and all, all of this work around dialogue and conversation, it, it's based in history, it's based in research, who is a researcher or what is a piece of research that you lean on often when it comes to dialogic conversation?

Haesun: A piece of research or a researcher that I always go back to. There are a few, but definitely I can say it's Janet Bavelas and she is, um, she's been really, she's been [00:04:00] publishing for more than 50 years and she just passed away a couple years ago. Uh, but she does, uh, what we call pragmatics or microanalysis of face-to-face dialogue.

Haesun: She's a researcher and like a living history who was doing actual research and also making it so practical for people. So, and her precision of language is just, when you read her article, any of her articles, there's not even a single word that you can remove or add, it's, it's how it's written. Yeah. So Janet Bavelas would be the person that I will say, no questions. Yeah. 

Olivia: Beautiful, yeah. So take us to the moment where, where a challenge, what, what caused you or what inspired you to create the DOQ model? 

Haesun: You know, this model is, um, it came out of a necessity, so. I was teaching solution-focused [00:05:00] coaching and different ways of listening. And because solution-focused coaching like any other good coaching should be, it's not about asking questions. So many times people memorize, oh, so what's the good question to ask? There's no such thing, really. So when I was teaching coaching as listening, you have to listen precisely and productively. What does that mean? And I was teaching, I think this was back in 2007, 15-16 (years ago) I would like to say I was teaching in China, and I'm Korean, so I don't know the language at all.

Haesun: And I, I was teaching in English and there's interpreter who, who, she's an excellent interpreter. She not only translates, but then trans, uh, context, so she's excellent. But it was during break time, so she had to go to the bathroom. And then I'm in the room and in Asia I find that break time actually means that you come to the professor and ask questions. They don't like [00:06:00] take a break. They're working. 

Olivia: Oh, that's so scary. 

Haesun: And I was just saying, and I was just standing right by my like board whiteboard when I was talking about this. And one, one gentleman actually came up to me and he said, I'm sorry, I don't. Speak English. And I'm like, I'm sorry, I don't speak Chinese. We can't really communicate. But then he's like, oh, we're looking for the translator. But she went to the bathroom. And he says, so what is it? Uh, and then we, we were limited in the language that we can use. So then I was trying to make it as simple. So that I can use the, the simplest language that we, we can both understand. And then I said, well, it's, it's about listening. He said, yeah, I get it. What do you listen for? I'm like, Hmm, I don't know. It's, it's kind of like this. And then I remember that moment very uh vividly that I was like, it's kind of like this. It's like a, people tell you something that happened in the past, something that happened in the future, and he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Haesun: Those are the words that we know -past, future. [00:07:00] And then I said, up there is good. Bad. He's like, oh, okay, okay. So I just remember that was the first iteration is a quadrant of horizontal line from left to right is past to future. And he knew those words. I even know that in Chinese, right? So then top to bottom is like good and bad or good and not good. And he's like, oh, I get it. So then we had this quadrant and I said, so whole idea of solution focused is um, like getting people to talk more about that area. And he got it. And I mean, since then the model actually has changed quite a bit so that we actually do talk about all four quadrants and the names have changed, but that's how it came up when we didn't have, uh, interpreter, we really connected to that common language that we can hold on to.

Haesun: And that's why it's so simple [00:08:00] that. Because it was really, 'cause I, I didn't know how to translate. And he got it. And I got it. Yeah. This is it. So that's the very first moment it came up. I love it. 

Olivia: I love it. I love it! 

Haesun: Isn't it sweet? 

Olivia: It's sweet. It is. And I think it's also, it goes back to the preciseness that you spoke of and that we don't always need many words to explain. We need that common language, that shared understanding. So help us now understand, can you break down - what are the four quadrants? Can you go into depth a little bit more? The different elements? 

Haesun: I think, um, that shared meaning making or that accumulation of shared meaning is quite interesting even with this quadrant. So initially I called it past to future and then like good and not good. Uh, but then I realized that when you listen to somebody's narrative and we decide good or not good, then [00:09:00] we are making value judgment here. So then how do we stick really close to the client's language?

Haesun: And then it, it occurred to me, so this is like seven iterations later. Now, what it looks like is on the top is when clients say, or anybody, when they say they want more, it's not good, but it's something that they say that they want more. Bottom is something that they say that they want less. And you can actually track their language this way because it's about, I hope to see this or I, I am really hoping. I wish that I would like to, those are all want more? Oh, you know, I'm just kind of dreading; these are all one less. And sticking very close to the language of the client. And then when we put them together, like timeline and preference line, and I decided to call it preference. And quadrant one, which is, um, top right corner becomes something that people tell you that they want [00:10:00] in the future.

Haesun: It's not perfect future, but they prefer to see that. I would, it would be my preference, and that's called prefer future. And then, uh, top left is past your experience, thoughts, interactions, and, and kind of feelings and all those things that you have experienced, whether directly or even vicariously and something that was in the direction of your preference. And that is called resourceful past? And what's most common that people usually, when they start to talk about something, when not prompted, often humans talk about the bottom quadrants, which is the bottom left corner will be something that happens. That was not my preference. And people usually call it like complaints or like, you know, I dare complaining or regrets, guilt, shame.

Haesun: All of those that happened in the past that that was not your preference, whether you  caused it or you're part of it, or it's something was done on you. But [00:11:00] still we call it, uh, you know, even the names changed. Initially I called it like, um, let's call it, uh, traumatic past and then, or regretful passed, and people are like, sure, it worked for a little bit. But then some people are like, well, it's not just regret. And it's not necessarily trauma. So then I decided to call it troubled past where a lot of other people can connect to that idea. 'cause everyone has it. If I ask you about Olivia, what's your trauma? It's kind of like, um, uh, um, where I can say, you know, tell me a little bit about your troubled past. It's a lot lighter. Right? 

Olivia: It is. It is. More accessible. 

Haesun: And then the, yeah. And then last one is the, which one..lower right corner is where people will tell you something that might happen. That, uh, they're not looking forward to. So then it's not, some people call it fear. And actually for a little bit [00:12:00] I call the fearful future as well. But then somebody said, it's not really a fear, but it's more of a worry and it's different. It's like, oh, that's different for you. Okay. How is it different? But anxiety lives there. And so then that, uh, quadrant is called, um, dreaded future, a simple dread.

Haesun: In English, dread is better than fear. But then in other languages that I'm told that dread is much worse than fear. And then out of necessity, some people started to say, what about the now? What about the present moment? So then I had to define it as um, 'cause this is not just, uh, uh. It's not a coaching model, but it's more of a heuristic of, uh, interaction. So when we use it as a research tool, we have to now operationalize. So now it's defined as a time and space you and I have together in the middle. So that's actually called Quadrant Zero. So that's the model, so to [00:13:00] speak. 

Olivia: Yes. Well, and I, I appreciate too how it's evolved and that you are able to name all of the different iterations. And what I appreciate most is that it's based on feedback. And so there's this beautiful feedback loop that our work can morph and change based on the, the people we're in conversation with. And that's something that I think is needed now tremendously because we are so polarized that it, it's hard to even see the possibility of change or understanding someone that has a very, very different viewpoint.

Olivia: And I said to you before we jumped on to record that what I'm learning more and more is that when we can settle in on the complexities of issues that can serve as common ground to begin these conversations [00:14:00] around, you know, what is your perspective? We, we seem to very much disagree, but what are some of the complexities so I can better understand where you may be coming from?

Olivia: Um, and I recently had a conversation with Dr. Katy Anthes. Uh, she was a Commissioner of Education in Colorado for seven years, and she said something that I continue to think about, that we all want to be understood - so deeply that is what most of us are striving for. And so I think of, you know, conversations and you just said this is not strictly a coaching model necessarily. So I guess another question I have is when you're in conversation, whether it's with a coach or with a client. How do you help them identify where people are within the DOQ model? Are there indicators of conversation? [00:15:00] 

Haesun: You know, when you just spoke about this, um, seemingly disagreeing parts of people's narratives and find that fascinating to study. Because, um, so for example, if we had a list of 10 things, you and I very likely will agree on, maybe 7 out of 10. But then there are three that we might be like, what? You think what? Okay. So then in a way, we did this experiment. I actually had a personal experience of, um, posting something on Facebook back a few years back when we're in the heat of COVID.

Haesun: And I was so annoyed with these people who refuse to be vaccinated and all of that. And I posted something. And I was like, oh, if, if this was not for this anti-vaxxers, then we can travel again. And then one of my close, close friends responded [00:16:00] saying, I am not sure how to take this. I didn't get vaccinated. I didn't even vaccinate my kids because I have this fear. And I'm like, what? How could you, what's wrong? That was my first response. Like, what's wrong with you? Are you kidding? Like there's a science and, right? So I have this, my own narrative. And then I realized that this is my close friend, that I cannot believe that she doesn't agree with me on this real, like, essential issue.

Haesun: And I'm a, I'm a scientist. And then I decided to, you know what? Look, why don't we have a conversation about this? Cause I love you and I respect you so much that I want to hear your perspective on this. I cannot agree with you. I will never agree with you on this, but I want to hear your perspective. Now then, what happens is in coaching too, that we are looking for this moment we call calibration that happens all the time, also known as common grounding, but it's a lot [00:17:00] more, um continuous and precise to call it calibration. Because when I was talking to my friend, we realized that I get vaccinated because of fear. She doesn't get vaccinated because of fear. 

Olivia: That's fascinating. 

Haesun: And then we actually had this fear as a a, something that we can calibrate on. So then that it's not about doing it or not doing it versus we're all afraid actually. 'Cause the unknown is, I'm frightened by it. That's why I vac I get vaccinated. 'cause I wanna protect on my, my mom and she had exactly the same response. I am terrified now then we can agree so closely on this idea that we are all scared of what we don't know. And that conversation not only saved the relationship, but it got stronger. And how do we have that kind of conversation with somebody so close to me that how could just [00:18:00] support that? And I wonder how that's, that plays out in a lot of American homes where there's this like, from my outside, it looks so, um strange that people are either this color or that color.

Haesun: And I'm like, how does that even work? But I wonder about those conversations that people must be having. And in coaching conversation, how do we know? There's some cues that people say that when we listen to clients' language and I tell, uh, coaching, coach students and coaches all the time that you should be able to answer this question at any given point in your coaching. And this one question, if you don't have an answer to it, then probably you need to recenter. 

Olivia: I need to know the question. 

Haesun: Yeah. The question is at, at any given point in your conversation with your client or student, what did I hear They say that they want, [00:19:00] if you don't have an answer to that, you are not listening. And if you don't have answer to that, then you need to really navigate the conversation in that direction. What did I hear that they say that they want? If you don't have that information, where are you going? So we know that Those are the cues that I know that where's the client? Well, they will tell you if you're listening 'cause it's a listen…like it helps us to listen more Precisely. 

Olivia: They will. And here's the conundrum I face though. Sometimes when we're saying client is a bigger umbrella, sometimes it within a school district, the leadership may say, I can very precisely listen and they may say something that they want. And then when I am with coaches that work for that school district, they say very different things that they want. And so what I find challenging with the [00:20:00] coaching work is finding the calibration point that centers on children. Uh, and, and that that's often where we center ourselves. Because they could be very different um, but it, it's, it's a challenge, right? To listen to the individual and within a body of an organization. I find that, that the work that we do. 

Haesun: And that speaks to team coaching that I do, uh, a lot more than individual coaching because I find, um, individual coaching people see it more as a tools for a breakthrough. Like, oh, you know, I get coached so that, but then same leaders who come for one-on-one coaching, they go back to their work and, uh, kind of the progress is not um, I see them struggle with the same issue, same topic, same environment, because nothing else changed around them. So [00:21:00] I, um, I see team coaching to be much more or whole school approach to be much more efficient to an effective than individual person going for coaching. So in a team coaching or team setting, what happens is you are not going for answers or breakthroughs, but, um, uh, you're going for a relational shift.

Haesun: You're getting people to talk about or talk with one another the way that they always wanted to. So it's, um, team coaching is navigating or sort of balancing or calibrating a lot of collective perspectives into a shared understanding. I think that's so powerful when you do that. 

Olivia: It's, it is. I agree. 

Haesun: Especially when you're building on or centering on children, 'cause that's probably, everyone can say yes to that. Yeah. So, yeah. What a great, um, building place. 

Olivia: Well, and that's hopefully, if I'm serving school districts, that should be [00:22:00] the center of our hearts that all of the ripple or all the layers come out of. And what we've done, we've used different protocols but most of them center on starting with our hopes for children and then how we can have the parallel practices that model what we dream of for children in the future with our resourceful past as well, alongside. Um, so I just, I think that that's fascinating. And then, you know, what specific techniques can you offer that can help practitioners become more intentional with their language and dialogue? 

Haesun: So here is what I usually see people do with this information. So people usually think, okay, so now we have to, uh, orient our conversation to quadrant one and two. So we're like, we're going to three and four. Oh, no, no, no, no. We're not gonna go there. And then quadrant one and two. Now in practice, that's [00:23:00] going to, be quite annoying. So imagine you're going through some tough time. They're like, yeah, but look at the price side. And it's like, you know what you are so annoying!

Haesun: Yeah. And I personally experienced it in a, a deeper sense of rage when somebody told me as I was going through, as I was grieving my father's death. And for those listeners who are listening to this and people who are going through grief, you know, grief is something that's so private and public at the same time. It's utterly private and it's almost like grief is, it's like you, you are walking in landmines and you don't know when that landmine of memory just poof. And then you're fine five seconds ago now you're like weeping, you’re on the floor. So grief is so different for everyone, but also it's so public.

Haesun: So when I was going through grief, the eight months mark was a weird time. [00:24:00] Because around then you kind of start to doubt. It's like, is it okay? I'm still grieving. It's like what kind of social pressure that you internalize and put on yourself. No one is expecting, but you're like, it's already been eight months do I still talk about it? Is it, is it okay? I mean, why am I not better? So then I actually went to see a therapist, and therapist said, so when will be a good time to move on from this? Now I know if we were to analyze it using the quadrant, sure you're trying to move to quadrant one and that was the most disrespectful.

Haesun: And violent act to somebody who's grieving. And that's how I experienced it all via that questions are, um, intrusive. Questions are by design intrusive, 'cause you are adding your assumptions, you're embedding it, you're embedding your presuppositions in your questions and you're kind of like explicitly requested, you [00:25:00] answer it. Yes, that's intrusive. So, it is very intrusive and you feel it when the topic, the more sensitive the topic, you will feel it. So I think technique, if we can call it a technique, is when you hear content in quadrants three and four, do not ignore it, but do not explore it. So what we call is you need to acknowledge unless you acknowledge it, they will, uh, repeat, they will come back to it until they feel that you heard it calibration.

Haesun: So we usually, when we, when I study, um, therapy or coaching conversations, for those who are seasoned practitioners, they do this like a, like a textbook case. They always make, almost always make a statement about quadrant three or four. They might say, wow, that sounds really difficult. Or then more like, oh, you know? Yeah. Wouldn't that be, yeah. You know, I can't understand why you feel that way for [00:26:00] sure. But then they don't end there. Because if you actually end, uh, at making a statement, their attention will go there and they will, it will have a function of exploring. So seasoned practitioners always make a statement, but then they add a question that is orienting their attention to quadrant one, two. 

Haesun: For example, tt sounds like a horrible experience that you have to go through that the client says, yes, sign of calibration, right? Yes. And then the person will say, so how did you cope with all of that. Now, the person didn't say, tell me more about that. Or how did that make you feel? That would be horrible. Exploration. Intrusive, right? But if you say, it sounds like a horrible experience, and how did you manage, how did you manage all of that? Now that's a very different orientation. So as a skill, that's what we observe in, in seasoned [00:27:00] practitioners. If they are preserving quadrants three and four, we almost always see this question that is added to it, that is redirecting.

Haesun: Um, we call it resource activation. So we see the resource activation always happening after that. If you, um, and sometimes we don't use questions a lot, actually, a lot of seasoned practitioners, they use statements very usefully. So if somebody's talking about…., you can map it on 1, 2, 3, 4, quadrant, 1, 2, 3, 4. But if you're gonna just use the statement, people do something like this, they simply preserve from what they heard and say, so clearly you've been thinking a lot about this, so when you mention about this ideal way of interacting with your spouse, I mean, wouldn't that be nice? So you're just preserving what they just said, and then they will just go there as if you just ask the question. So [00:28:00] that's a very sophisticated skill that I think is not that complicated, but it requires us to make, uh intentional and attentional choice in a real time situation. Right?. 

Olivia: You just rocked my world. You just like blew my mind. I'm processing everything you're saying. I just am like, yeah. I'm sorry. Go ahead. What were you going to say? 

Haesun: Yeah, but it's really, that's not, uh, it's, it's not um, uh, too complicated, but I think we sort of get lazy in listening. And especially, Olivia, when I look at coaching tapes, I know when people have no idea what they can say next 'cause you know why? Because this is when a lot of practitioners say, tell me more.

Olivia: And you can also watch on their face almost that the listening [00:29:00] stumbling blocks. I've been studying a lot around, tell me more. Or, um, the idea of the Me Too or the predictor. And so they're already ready to throw a question or a fix-it strategy at that person. And what I find so refreshing. I'm, again, I'm processing everything you just shared because it is such a lovely way to interact. It feels so, um, in the moment with whoever is sharing, and I really appreciate the idea of the, how did you make it through that situation or even just adding a statement onto it. A lot of my coaching background was don't ever ask a question that you already know the answer to which sits in that premise of judgment that we're trying to avoid. This in my mind, is next level though - again, it, [00:30:00] it may feel simple to you who just eloquently explained it in a beautiful (way), with lots of examples and yet I think. People that are listening can find this so empowering in all dialogues that they're having, whether it's with a child, whether it's with a partner, whether it's with a teacher or coach. So I am so grateful that you just shared those different techniques. I think it's very powerful. 

Haesun: You know, Olivia, that just reminds me that right now in our time, there must be a lot of educators and parents, um, who may have the sense of dread. Of unknown and the unknown and the dread. And then, uh, often also in our personal lives too, that we, we carry the sense of dread all the time. And the whole, whole idea of we are way more skilled at detecting threat and dread and trouble and like three times negativity [00:31:00] bias. And we are trying to be like, oh, you know, don't go there. Don't go there. Well, that's, that's not the point. But how we go there? So for example, you will meet a lot of educators, students who speak about quadrant four, the dreaded future.

Haesun: Now instead of like, how do we actually; how do we have conversations about that when somebody's telling you, I am so scared to, I, I don't, I'm dreading and often I see people making this mistake of you try to prevent it. Now preventing it is not that effective. But you can, it's not about prevention. It's about preparation. Knowing that it will happen, but also when I am sitting down one-on-one and people tell me they're dreading something happening to their home, their parents, their children, their school, and we hear it as dread, then it's hard to get out of it. But what I [00:32:00] hear is you are, um, dreading losing something that you really care about.

Haesun: So then oftentimes my inquiry is not about why are you so afraid? I never understand, but I will say, clearly you, this is something so important to you that you're trying to protect. So what are you trying to protect here? What is it that you don't wanna lose? Now whole conversation becomes about their value, not their fears. Right? So then it's, it's not, um, really slight change in your words will make that direction. Like orientation slightly changes, and then over the next like 10 minutes, your conversation goes in that direction. And that's a completely different story. 

Olivia: It's beautiful. 

Haesun: So yeah, it's, it's, it's fun to watch that happening in real time.

Olivia: I go on walks every Sunday with my [00:33:00] younger son and I find that children, especially my own children, talk a lot more when we're walking or when we're driving in a car. And what's fascinating is that a lot of dialogue is framed, that you have to be face-to-face with someone to see their cues. And yet I find children open up a lot more when you're side-by-side. And, and we, we talk and my younger son opens up on our walks and he talks about so many things that are on his mind from A to Z. Um, and it's fascinating for him to share things he's concerned with or that he's worried about and um, other things that are happening to other people in the world. And he asks many, many questions.

Olivia: I am excited though to think when he does express worry. Now I know as a caregiver I can ground that conversation and in myself processing what is he actually [00:34:00] trying to protect. Is it that he's going to perform a trumpet solo and he's scared of not getting a perfect score? Like what is he actually holding onto to protect? That's, that's a fascinating way to look at this and to frame it for him as well. I think as a child. So much of this work, I think we would have a much more hopeful future if we did this work with children. And I know your work focuses on grownups, but I see the ripple effects of this to be profound. I really do.

Haesun: You know, we are, um, hosting this conference called TLC, Teaching Learning and Coaching, with Jim Knight in Toronto in about three weeks time. And that's with, uh, a lot of school educators. And, um, there's a saying that if we do this in schools today, really within the next 5 to 10 years, we have a different society. 

Olivia: We do, we [00:35:00] will. 

Haesun: And it's really, we do. Because your, your younger son who's seventh grade, you said? And now imagine in 10 years now, he will be in that working age and who's, who's, who has this influence And now it's, we're not talking about a hundred years. We are talking about seven to 10 years. 

Olivia: It's so possible. 

Haesun: If we invest in list today, 7 to 10 years, we can expect a completely different society. 

Olivia: This is so exciting. I actually am, um, going to be in conversation with Jim on Friday, and I I am thrilled about that and so I, I'll have to share that, you know, this idea there, there's so much hope, there's so much possibility. Um, and. We must model this as adults and grownups. So, um, I, I think the last question I'd love to ask you because, uh, you know, you shared the evolution of this model has been developing since 2015, [00:36:00] 16 - 17. What new frontiers do you see that this could be powerful in exploring? 

Haesun: Ah, you know, I thought about that and. I think, um, I see it already happening in research front a lot that people are using this in research, people are using this for, um, team coaching and supervision and training. But, you know, I personally got very interested, I've been always interested, but, uh, looking at political rhetoric. Using not just this model, but semiotics and pragmatics and those are two sort of genre of linguistics. And when we are studying the situation that we are in, the political situation, the whole world is in right now. And not just one country, but several different countries are, uh, we live in, especially in the day and age of social media, we are [00:37:00] talking about semiotic warfare. It's not, no longer like just gun and ax and you know, sword warfare.

Haesun: It's semiotic how we say stuff, how we actually set the agenda, how we move the window of acceptance from conspiracy. One day it was conspiracy and then the next day we wake up to, this is now being talked about at courts and now becomes policy. Who thought that women's rights and all those things are like, again, once again questioned in court because somebody moved that window. That's now semiotic warfare. So for me, I would love to see people using this to awaken other people's understanding because you can track, not only what the conversation is, but what the conversation does. So looking at it from both semiotics but pragmatics perspective, I think that's definitely a very necessary area that we need to pay attention to.[00:38:00] 

Olivia: This has been one of the most illuminating conversations I've had in a long time. Um, and I just, I find you as a practitioner, as a researcher, as a scientist, so, um, so profound and the way that you are very precise with your explanation. Um. It's very calming because I think it's actually, I think it's actually doable. It, it's, it's so real and authentic and what I'm very grateful for in this conversation is that you offered a beautiful myriad of examples that we can use to ground ourselves when the work gets hard, when we feel like we're stuck and we can go back to the moments in this conversation to say, wait, I remember, I remember Dr. Moon offered this small pivot, this change that can really redirect, um, the evolution of conversation. So [00:39:00] I'm very grateful for your work. 

Haesun: And Olivia, that's the thing. The conversation piece is that we are surrounded by it. And the choice is do we surround ourselves with what tires us, tire us out, that fear that, all those different things, but do we have a choice of surrounding ourselves with those conversations that can actually give hope? Not just to us, but share hope with other people and conversation as a word in 14th century, it meant dwelling place your address. And I think it's metaphorically so true. It's like what's your conversation actually meant? What's your address? And I think we still very much metaphorically, that's our address.

Haesun: Where do we live? Which quadrant do you live and where do you wake up to and where would you like to be at? And I think when you find yourself surrounded and tired of this news, you have a choice to make [00:40:00] intentional and attententional choice to make. And I think that's very likely, as you say, it's doable and I think we can actually start doing it today.

Olivia: Yes. 

Haesun: Right? 

Olivia: Yes. Well, thank you for your time. I appreciate you. 

Haesun: Yes, thank you. 

Take care. Schoolutions Coaching and Teaching Strategies is created, produced and edited by me. Olivia Wahl. Thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music playing in the background. You can follow and listen to solutions wherever you get your podcasts or subscribe to never miss an episode and watch on YouTube. Thank you to my guest, Dr. Haesun Moon, for sharing how we can nurture classroom communities where adults and children have more meaningful and productive dialogue, even in polarized environments. Now I'd love to hear from you. Send me an email at schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com.

Olivia: Let me know what resonated most from my conversation with Dr. Moon. [00:41:00] Tune in every Monday for the best research-backed coaching and teaching strategies you can apply right away to better the lives of the children in your care. And stay tuned for my bonus episodes every Friday where I'll reflect and share connections to what I learned from the guests that week. See you then.