S4 E33: Why Students Should Own Their Learning Journey with Julie Wright and James Goldberg

Discover why true educational transformation happens when we shift from content-centered to student-centered learning! In this insightful conversation, educators Julie Wright and James Goldberg share wisdom from their book The Limitless Classroom: Mantras to Deepen Learning. Learn how giving students time, purpose, and ownership develops genuine curiosity and transferable skills.

Julie and James explain their three powerful mantras:

1. Kids deserve more time to think and do
2. Kids deserve the why and how, not just the what
3. Kids deserve to own their learning journey

Whether you're a teacher, coach, or administrator, you'll leave with practical strategies to prioritize student voice, create menus of opportunities, and embrace responsive instruction that meets learners where they are.

Check out these resources from Julie and James!

• Slide Deck with Graphics 
• PDF with Graphics
• Julie’s Books

Chapters:

00:00 - Introduction and Overview 

01:59 - Meet Julie Wright and James Goldberg 

03:50 - The Purpose of "The Limitless Classroom" 

04:40 - How Julie and James Met and Collaborated 

07:54 - Why Mantras for Teaching? 

09:40 - Mantra 1: Kids Deserve More Time to Think and Do 

13:55 - Responsive Classroom Approach 

17:02 - Mantra 2: Kids Deserve the Why and How, Not Just the What 

21:55 - Surface to Deep Learning 

24:00 - Mantra 3: Kids Deserve to Own Their Learning Journey 

27:00 - Student Ownership Revelation Story 

28:30 - Creating Menus of Opportunities 

34:35 - Call to Action for Educators 

40:00 - Conclusion and Contact Information

#LimitlessClassroom #EducationalMantras #StudentCenteredLearning #EducationTransformation #TeachingMantras #ClassroomStrategies #DeepLearning #StudentVoice #ResponsiveTeaching #TeacherProfessionalDevelopment #MathEducation #LiteracyInstruction #MeaningMaking #CurriculumIntegration #LimitlessClassroom #EducationalCoaching #TeacherCollaboration #ContentIntegration #TeachingStrategies #StudentAgency #MeaningfulLearning #EducationTransformation #ResponsiveTeaching 

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Transcript

Olivia: [00:00:00] Hi there. I'm so glad you're here. Here's what you'll gain by listening to the very last second of this conversation with Julie Wright and James Goldberg. Through my conversation with Julie and James, you'll learn about why true educational transformation happens when we shift from content-centered to student-centered learning, giving students the time, purpose, and ownership they need to develop genuine curiosity that fuels deep transferable learning.

Olivia: You'll leave the conversation understanding why kids deserve more time to think and do. Why the why and how matter more than the what and why student ownership transforms learning outcomes. Stay with us. I'm so happy to have you join our conversation. This is Schoolutions Coaching and Teaching Strategies, the podcast that extends education beyond the classroom.

Olivia: A show that offers educators and caregivers strategies to try right away and ensure every student receives the [00:01:00] inspiration and support they need to thrive. I am Olivia Wahl, and I am happy to welcome my guests today, James Goldberg and Julie Wright. Let me tell you a little bit about James and Julie.

Olivia: James is passionate about shifting the focus in education to student-centered learning. As an educator with 14 years of experience in secondary math and public, charter, and independent schools, he sees an opportunity to transform math education. With over 25 years of experience in education, Julie Wright has had the pleasure of serving schools and organizations in urban, suburban, and rural communities in a variety of roles.

Olivia: Julie is proud to serve schools and organizations that believe in approaching each day's work as an inquiry along the learning journey, because Julie believes that change is a process, not an event. [00:02:00] Our conversation today will focus on James and Julie's book. I have it right here. It's so beautiful, The Limitless Classroom: Mantras to Deepen Learning.

Olivia: I am so happy to welcome you as guests today, James and Julie, thank you for taking the time to have this conversation. 

Julie: Thank you so much. 

James: Thanks for having us.

Julie: Yes, we're so happy to be here. 

Olivia: Here we go!

James: So excited. 

Olivia: So, I always name the issue that we're going to talk about and, um, then I seek out guests that are an answer and have stories to share, resources to share, and you both are all of the above. Uh, so time is always an issue, uh, in schools and beyond that the idea of integrating content, it's not happening intentionally enough. There's, there's people trying and sometimes it just happens. But that intentionality, because if we're really thinking of how we can braid all of the silos of learning together [00:03:00] for our children, then they are able to make sense, have time for making meaning and transfer it into their everyday lives.

Olivia: So, I wanted to read a quote to quote both of you from page four in your beautiful book. Because I thought it was so beautiful that you tell us as readers exactly what this book is meant to do. “This work and this book goes beyond content integration. It speaks to the ways in which our entire learning community, the walls, student work areas resources, mini lessons, grouping, configurations, student work products, and more create opportunities for students to make meaning and then transfer what they know and can do to new experiences.” 

Olivia: Boom. And it does. And my favorite thing, well, there's many things I love, but one of my, one of my favorite things is the idea of you [00:04:00] both collaborating to have this book come into the world. And so I'd love to kick off our conversation by you sharing, um, how did you even meet? How did you come to write together? What did that look and feel like? So Julie, I'd love for you to share a little bit about that with us.

Julie: You know, James over a decade ago. 

James: Yeah, man. 

Julie: Do you believe what I'm, James and I, I mean, we're getting old buddy. You know, the idea of of us meeting over a decade ago in this beautiful space, it was summertime. It was a school on the east side of Harlem in New York where we were both working and we were in the, in the midst of our summer institute, if I remember correctly, where we were…

Julie: Really it was a joyful time, teachers learning, teachers thinking and teachers planning, getting ready for kids to, you know, burst through the doors. Um, often new groups of teachers planning together for the first time. And during that time, um, James and I were both [00:05:00] part of a school, a middle school of five through eight school, where the, the departments were very departmentalized by design and so much of it was focused on content, and it made a lot of sense in a lot of places.

Julie: I, at the time, was an instructional coach and James was a, a math leader in the building. And, um, everyone working hard at figuring out what we thought kids might need and how we might get to know children and, and really getting ready to design classrooms for their arrival. And I remember seeing, um, James, uh, the Summer Institute was quite long and we were getting to know one another the whole school and I remember James kind of being in the doorway and listening in, you know, he was with amazing math, um, people just like himself learning and thinking and, and doing around math and me on the literacy side.

Julie: And he, you know, he was, he had this intuition about the fact that the literacy folks were across the hall. It so or so be it. And that while [00:06:00] we had content to really focus on, he was much more intrigued with the students we serve. And, um, I don't know if that's short-changing it. I mean, it really is that simple. And through that conversation, through those conversations that happened after that, which were two years in the making. I mean, James and I eventually both moved on from that school, but our conversations continued. 

James: That was really well said. I mean, I mean, the thing I think that, that really drew me to you and, and some people in, in your department, um, is just the techniques I saw, you know, as a, as a younger teacher still like getting their chops and teaching. When you're teaching math, you're not always exposed to all these wonderful techniques that are used in other departments. Right. And, and so I, I watched an amazing. Teacher, Kristen. I mean, it's just had a huge influence. If I was gonna say Wells, my tell teacher, there's this other amazing teacher that I taught with and just how she was managing the, how kids were working in her class.

James: I was like, this can be done in math. Like [00:07:00] this, this isn't, shouldn't just be a structure. And, and I think it comes down to what Julie's saying. It's a, it's about learning, right? And it's, and we've taking, making the story more cohesive for kids is really important. 

Olivia: James, you're making me think about something that I just lived a couple of months ago.

Olivia: I was facilitating a learning lab, it was in an elementary building actually, and it was a gift because we had a literacy lab in the morning and then a math lab in the afternoon. But as the coach, I was watching and thinking in both classrooms, and I was processing. Wait a second. If we're studying the mathematical practices and the kindergartners, where in a nonfiction unit of study, um, where the mathematicians in second grade were focusing, I'm trying to think something with geometry, but we were, we were really honing in on the mathematical practices and using precise [00:08:00] language with vertical whiteboards -  Peter Liljedahl’s work.

Olivia: And I'm sitting there thinking. Why are we not really zooming in on using precise language and having that be the skillset and the knowledge that we want children considering across? Right? And so if you are readers and writers of nonfiction, boy is there a lot of precise language that you need to attend to. And when you are mathematicians and you're sharing your thinking, you have to be precise. So naming those transfer points for kids, it will just help their learning transfer and be more cohesive. Um, let's also talk the structure of the book because it's amazing. Um, I, you know, the title is The Limitless Classroom: Mantras to Deepen Learning. And so before I jumped in, I'm like, what are you talking about? Mantras? So James, why mantras, um, and why the structure. [00:09:00] 

James: Uh, thanks. Yeah, it was, it was, you know, we were, as a teaser, Julie term, noodling on this for some time. Um, but yeah, we couldn't find the right word, you know, chapters didn't do it justice. We had all kinds of things, uh, we were thinking about. And then yeah, we decided this idea of a mantra and, and I think 'cause it feeds into exactly what we're talking about, right? It's a, it's a mindset, right? It could be mindsets, mantras, but we like mantras 'cause it's almost like. I step into my classroom to teach.

James: I'm thinking of these three mantras. I sit down to have a discussion with a child about learning. I'm thinking about these mantras. I'm sitting down to plan a lesson. I'm sitting down to think about assessment. I'm sitting down to think about a unit, like we love that it, these are like the three filters through which you can take any, anything you're grappling with we hope, right?

James: And there's other, there's more and they, they're gonna be different in every different environment, but we're hoping that these three mantras give you something to recite back to yourself when [00:10:00] you're thinking through something you're about to do with kids. In addition to and with in concert with content, right? It's like these three things resonating and then so kids don't have to do that code switching. 

Olivia: Well, and I don't like when I'm highlighting authors to give too much of the book away because we want everyone to grab this book and to pour over it. And I read it - I've read it several times now. Because I think it's not something you read straight through. You read it through to take it in, but then you go back, as you're saying. So mantra one really focuses on how do we connect current learning with learning of the past and learning of the future. So James, I'm gonna ask you to tackle that and then Julie, after that, let's talk responsive classroom. You know, what does it look and feel like?But James first let, how do we make those connections? 

James: Yeah. Um, and, and that's again, this more time to think and do this, this kind of like um, creating structures in your classroom that helps students [00:11:00] make those links and just creating more cohesive experiences for students. So that's like in the tasks that you give, and that could be cross curricular or it could be just within the work you're doing. And, and that's another reason for the mantra ideas we're not suggesting scrap a curriculum and start this curriculum, right? Or, or here's a new workbook to, to use. It's about just reframing and being purposeful. 

Olivia: I always felt so, um, honored to be able to walk into a classroom and say, I know as learners, this is how you spoke about whatever we're studying as. kindergartners or as sixth graders, and now as first graders or seventh graders, this is the small piece we're going to add. This is the new layer to that learning we're going to add. And FYI, this is where it goes in the next grade level. So if you wanna challenge yourself, you can always think that way too.

Julie: Absolutely. And when I think about, [00:12:00] um, I'm just flipped to our table of contents, you know, one of the - I think one of the hidden treasures in this book, at least, um, you know, I'm, I'm probably a little biased, obviously James and I, it's a, it's a labor of our love from, from our professional lenses. The, um, the way, the way we structured it was these three mantras, and then within each mantra, these four and six page spreads, if you will.

Julie: Where they are sort of like little mini-nuggets, tied to the big mantra. Right? And so for the first one, we won't go through each of them, but just to give a little taste of it to anyone who is interested in, in trying to visualize how these little small chunks that go together in, in mantra one, this idea of kids deserve more time to think and do. Um, we talk about revisiting, revising, and redrafting and making sure kids have time to do that.

Julie: So we, we give a little snippet, and it's more than a snippet. It's four pages of not only what do we [00:13:00] think that looks like in our practice, but then how might teachers, coaches, leaders, uh, facilitators use those ideas to get that work moving in their schools, in their classrooms with their teams. You know, James and I really think thought long and hard about how do you convey responsive instruction in pieces that not only people can grapple with, but also there are volumes of books written on that topic. And, and lots of historical thinking that we may or may not agree with today because times have changed and we've evolved. But for us it's really about making sure that the teacher is positioned to give kids a, a leg up for success.

Julie: Like whatever decisions we make to have in mind that our goal is to have them succeed, not succeed without effort and trials, but to actually have a path forward to where they feel they can succeed. [00:14:00] And so this idea that, um, that we wanna be responsive starts with the sort of simple idea that every person, child, teacher, administrator, parent, every person in the learning community comes with an asset.

Julie: And so we have lots of assets and so we need to lean on those. And, oh, by the way, you know, newsflash, even the three of us on this screen, we all have areas where we might need a lift because that's what learning is about. And so changing, uh, you, you heard James mention we went between mantras and mindsets. It's because that, that idea, that, that keeping your eyes on the idea that we all are growing, if that is the culture-setting tone for how we operate, then it means that we can know kids well. We can let them name what they're good at. We can let them name be a little vulnerable and say, you know, I'm not so great at that.

Julie: I might need some support. And then the [00:15:00] idea is to make sure that we plan with those things in mind and that that planning around responsive instruction can look very, um, different depending on the content, but also depending on the style of the teacher or the kiddo. But it is one thing it is not. It is walking away from this idea that there is a one size that fits all because, um, for the last decade, James and I, in our respective schools and in, in the school we were together in, we were certain that that did not work. And so we were intentional about, um, naming instruction that could look differently.

Olivia: I had a conversation with a coach where I said, so we need to make sure we have exit tickets in place. And then we'll use those exit tickets to plan for our instruction for the next day. And the person said, no, we, we already have the lesson planned for the next day. And it was like, nope. So you may know where you want to go the next day with your scope and sequence, but if we get the exit tickets and most are [00:16:00] still confused or need some clarification work, we're not moving on necessarily. So that idea of evidence of learning and a huge part for me, um, is that I need to have evidence, written evidence of where students are, where they're understanding, and James, I, I, you know, if we know we're going to circle back as you said, or it comes up later in the year because we have that broad stroke of where we're going over time.

Olivia: I may feel more comfy to move on or scoop up a small group and teach. Right? But that idea of slogging through a scope and sequence, it's terrifying to me. Um… 

James: I think you're pointing to, uh, just a, a just a really crucial, um, kind of challenge that no matter, you know, I’ve taught in public, private, like you mentioned charter, uh, in person, remote, everything, it's, it's the challenge of pacing. The challenge of. What does it [00:17:00] mean to get a student ready for X grade or X course. And, and then breaking that down, it, it's interesting 'cause I, it, it's like in some ways it, it's like, um, a juxtaposition where we think breaking that down in its most minute details is the way to help every kid. And we talk about this like, well-intentioned teachers, like, and we know you went into the teaching profession because you care about kids and you care about learning, you're passionate about your content.

James: There's lots of wonderful reasons to get in. But it's like we've almost, we've taken the beauty of the content and the connectedness of it and of just being in school and getting to just learn all day and we've turned it into this checklist, like this infinite checklist. Right. Um, and, and I think you're spot on as opposed to maybe like big ideas and like the fact that, okay, we are giving kids more time to think and do.

James: And I appreciate Julie bringing that up about our structure. I think. If you're like, well, what does that look like? The hope is you can just pull our book out of the shelf and, and like open to a page and, and be inspired by a piece of student work. We have like multi, [00:18:00] we have some videos in there, we have some structures. So, um, because I think that is kind of what maybe holds some people back from just doing, okay, I'm doing this skill this day, this skill, this day, this skill, this day. Well, can we mix all of those into an interesting task that kids are excited about? And now people are having fun. We're learning, right? I mean, it just sounds great and it we can do it. 

Olivia: We can. And so let's go to mantra two, and I'll read it directly from the book. “Kids Deserve the why and the how, not just the what.”

Olivia: So oftentimes. You know, we reveal the what. We also may even let students know what the end assessment is going to be. We do not often enough for ourselves think through the why. We don't think through the how, uh, maybe the how more the why is what I see missing more than anything else. And that is what students need to know more than anything else, I think. So why do we need to shift to focusing on meaning [00:19:00] over, you know, getting the correct answer or really that overall assessment? You know, it's not about getting the right answer. 

James: Now more than ever. I mean, I've always believed this as an educator that I always felt we were stressing answers more than making meaning. And not just in math classes, but like all around everywhere. But especially in math classes where it's like really kind of obvious that you boxed your answer at the end. Um, but. I've, so it's kinda interesting, this reckoning, I think is, is getting a lot of people to question that now, right? It, it's, so what, what, what do we prepare kids with? Right? What, what, what matters in an education, and, and again, this could be a really philosophical, uh, debate here. So we need critical thinkers. We need meaning makers. We need creativity, right? 

Olivia: What we're really talking about, I think is the idea of moving from that surface-level, all about just getting an answer to very complex understandings and connectivity between concepts to the [00:20:00] real world. And so Julie, how in the world do we do that though? Right? I mean, James, you're giving great examples. So Julie say more that surface level to complex and then the idea of experience and transfer. 

Julie: Well, you know, if we go back, you know, surface and deep learning and transfer is not a new idea by any means, but actually how we approach it - the idea of going from surface to deep. It it like, it dates back to Bloom’s and Web's Depth of Knowledge. This is not new information, but it is how we think about it. Right. So the, the, the way it goes is that we, we all, whether you're eight or 80 or anything in between, we, we usually lean on some surface stuff in order to go deep and then to transfer it to new experiences.

Julie: I think what James is referencing is the idea that we no longer have to use the bottom rungs of, of, of Bloom’s. Not that that was ever a bad thing to begin with. Um, we used to have to be able to remember [00:21:00] now we need to know how to access the stuff we need to remember, and I think that is the key.

James: Nice. Yeah. 

Julie: Right. So when we plan for students, when we are in team meetings and we're thinking about our designs, we can think about tasks that do require remembering and recalling and listing ideas. Those are all those surface learning pieces. But it might be that instead of kids spending time memorizing they, how, how might we ask kids to access that?

Julie: What would be their go-to? We're still, we're still gaining the same kind of skillset, but almost in a in a forward thinking way versus looking back over our shoulder, it's now what, what will kids have to do for the future tomorrow? Right. And then the idea of when you plan and you've got this surface level thing that you're leaning on, which we all do, it's how we build our background, it's how we activate our schema.

Julie: Then we might use that surface [00:22:00] learning to then add on. So we might have, you know, I'm, I'm gonna channel something other than math just because I want, I want, um, all of our readers and viewers to know that while I'm the literacy side and James is the math side, we were really intentional to say this could be for any, any yes.

Julie: Anything. It could be for the art teacher, it could be for the, you know, the Home Ec(onomics) teacher. It could be for the French teacher. It's it's process over end product. But let's just say I was trying to channel an idea for this. So the idea might be like an environmental science teacher who is asking for, um, students to be thinking about this endangered list of animals for whatever reason.

Julie: I'm not gonna go into any kind of standards that might be attached to 'em, although there are plenty in environmental science around that. And the idea might be that they think about making a list of endangered animals that would be that surfacey learning, right? Or how might you access a list of endangered animals?

Julie: That little research piece. [00:23:00] Then maybe instead of stopping there, we think about how we might add onto that to design a mini-action plan where kids can create a solution or a, uh, plan of practice that might solve that so that they are in the, the real world seat of what an environmental scientist might do.

Julie: And so we're bridging what we used to do, which is can you access information or can you learn information? But now can you do something with it? That's the thing we want kids to be able to do because we need action doers going up into the world. And if they don't ever get to dress, rehearse, and practice it in school, well then really know how to do it when it counts.

Olivia: They won’t! That's, that's such a good example. I love that example. And I, I also really appreciate mantra three, um, that kids deserve to own their learning journey. Yes, they do. I think my fear is the older students get, [00:24:00] the more that lecture typically fills the classroom walls and their lives. And, um, some children thrive with lecture. They, you know, you show up and dial it in, you know it's going to happen. It's very predictable. Um, yet I pause with that because the idea of students being involved in the creation of their learning. That to me is next level. James having kids involved in their learning. And creating tasks that are relevant and fascinating and exciting to them. How do we do that in the scheme of planning in the school day? 

James: Yeah. Uh, just, I just wanna touch on one thing you said before that, that I think's really important, right? It's like how have schools and the lecture-based model been set up to?

James: They've been set up to. Uh, really lift up certain kind of learners, right? And we don't, we don't have to get too into that. But I, I think you pointed out something that's really crucial and is all the more reason [00:25:00] why, again, our mantras are important and this lens is so important. So one way to like make our classrooms more equitable, right, is, is to give students more voice so they can, uh like they can come to understand how they learn best. They can un come to understand what things interest them and what, what they're passionate about. Because the resources are gonna be there for them to pursue those passions. Those resources are becoming more and more equitable. So the way we need to teach, we actually need to shift.

James: I think we need to shift our, almost our thinking as teachers more to like. Inspire-generators or like passion-pursuer. Love it. I dunno if you can think of anything, but because, because the content's there for, there are amazing, amazing YouTube channels. Again, I'm going to math and I, but I'm sure it's for everything, right? Amazing YouTube channels where, where wonderful animations with like wonderful explainers of math. So, you know the lecturer who's explaining math like, you're awesome, but this could be something students can watch on their own [00:26:00] time and pause and rewatch and, and and class could be spent digging into uh, exactly what you're talking about.

James: So, um. Yes, I, I wanna read for you a quote, uh, from a student, um, from an end of year survey that was just amazing. So this is, this is a, an amazing student, um, who's been at this school that I'm at, which, you know, it's challenging. So I got involved with this school, uh, it's called Avenues Online, and, um, it's an international online school.

James: It. We do some wonderful things with curriculum. I'm happy to share more about that, like in terms of integrating our curriculum, but this is a student who's taken a few, he's been with us a few years and it's taken him a while to get his footing. As you can imagine, it's challenging the remote space. It's challenging what we ask kids to do. We ask them to do a lot of work independently and then come prepared, um, for discussion in class. Um, and he just had this revelation, I have to share it with you. So he said, ”I realized halfway through the year that you can only learn math (or insert whatever you want there) if you're enthusiastic and you're curious about it.”

James: So this, this is a student who had really struggled and then just turned this amazing [00:27:00] corner, and it wasn't 'cause they all of a sudden figured out how to solve a quadratic equation or the Pythagorean theorem. They now know how to rationalize the square root. Like there's all these like discreet skills. It’s 'cause he realized he could own his learning. He realized that it's in his hands. He, he realized that curiosity is what's gonna fuel my learning, not someone explaining something really well to me or me practicing it a million times. Which is, which is like a different way of, it's interesting that he's saying this now as a 10th grader, right? I mean, so why is that message not more prevalent? 

Olivia: And I, I would say too, the hardest thing I think as a teacher is really prioritizing and accepting that it's not about covering. Everything. But you know, where am I or how am I going to leverage priority standards? How am I going to pick and choose what? Really students have to master in another, in a way. And the best way to have students own their own learning [00:28:00] is have them invested in the tasks. And Julie, I love the idea of the menu of opportunities or choice board, uh, and although that seems somewhat daunting prep wise, like talk us through it. How could we try this to offer more choice and opportunities for kids?

Julie: So what James and I try to say to teachers when we're working alongside colleagues, we're coaching, we're co-planning, we're we're teaching into what they're already doing is we, we try to name places where we can give autonomy and voice and choice. Where can kids, where can we teach just enough? Maybe it's about a process. Maybe it's about how something works. Maybe it's about how to access something. Or maybe it's an example or a model that would get them started. And then how do we allow them the opportunities to apply what they think they know or experiment with what they wanna try out. [00:29:00] And in that space, a menu of opportunities serves us well.

Julie: So I'll jump into maybe an ELA example, um, that I hadn't thought about until something, something one of you said. I was like, oh, I could talk about something that just, I just wrapped up with a group of teachers. You know, the, the common high school, middle school, sometimes too, sometimes upper grades as well. ELA kind of go-to is a, a a a novel or a a class book or a class text set. And um, I worked with a group of teachers that wanted to sort of debunk that for the end of the year. 'cause the text is just the vehicle anyways. Right. So for me, I, uh, you know, I did a lot of listening and then I, I figured out where, where I wanted to nudge was, was where teachers get uncomfortable is when they're not sure how kids are going to use their time.

Julie: Right. Kids are gonna read at different paces in a different, in different [00:30:00] books. Kids are gonna maybe create and produce something different. And so a menu gives, gives teachers an opportunity to say, let's build a choice board to say, no matter what book you're reading, I'd like you to spend some time reading. They can be loose or real tight with that. That might be one menu item. A second menu item might be, um, have a conversation with someone about what's happening in your book, and we might need to give kids some question stems around that, right? We might need to give some lifts there because they're not reading the same book, but they can have a, a book club type conversation if we have the right tools in front of them..

Julie: Then in this case, um, teachers actually gave kids some really juicy questions around some of their novels they were reading, and they asked them to insert those using an AI tool and say what would happen if these were answered? And do you agree? Did, did they give a lousy answer? Do you have better [00:31:00] responses for it and or is there a better question we should be asking? So those became all menu options. Maybe not on day one, but over the course of like an eight or nine day learning progression or a mini unit, if you will. And so the idea of giving kids these ideas of having a menu solves a lot of problems.

Julie: It solves a lot of, we don't have to hurry up 'cause I'm not done when people are done, or I don't have to sit and wait because I, I did something faster. It also gives us the opportunity to, um, make time to meet with kids one-on-one and in small groups. And I think that is probably the biggest takeaway besides the fact that then kids feel like they have some autonomy and agency because we've actually given it to them.

James: Yeah, I can see kids smiling. Sorry, when you were describing that menu, I just can visualize kids being so happy when you put those menus. Like that's the other thing, it's just a joyous classroom, right? Because kids are, yeah. Feeling that [00:32:00] ownership and that the teacher trusts them to do that because they wanna do, they wanna get into those things and they wanna choose one.

Julie: Well, and how many times, James, you and I've talked about this multiple times, how many times. Do, do teachers and, and these are well-intentioned, well-planned, really, really loving toward children, teachers. These are not teachers that show up to do any harm. Right. How often do they say, you know, so-and-so was a little confused and I couldn't get to him or her today because they're busy teaching. So this, and I'm not suggesting teaching isn't important because we show up to teach, but how we go about teaching and where we spend our time can be more authentic and it can be more intentional and it can be more targeted frankly, if we are thinking about giving kids a little bit of space and it's okay to give kids space to have some mishaps. Part of our job is like helping them uncover that that was the wrong turn. 

Olivia: Yes. And so I think it also is a, a mantra or [00:33:00] mindset shift of we plan for the learning we want students to take from whatever work we're reading, and then it becomes like, I can still use an anchor text absolutely to model, unpacking and unzipping my brain for kids, but that would only be a small nugget of time where then kids go off and they try that idea or that type of learning in their own books. It also provides beautiful access points. Right? It's not everyone having necessarily the same book in their hands, but they can have something that they have access to and still do that learning. 

Julie: It's super, it's super important. Some, something just kind of struck me and I, I think without the visual, it can feel a little bit like, oh, that sounds like a lot of work. You'll notice in, um, in our book, in that section, the menu of opportunities and the choice boards; they're not fancy and they're not, um, pretty. They are real [00:34:00] work, real time. Some are on an anchor chart, some are on a Google slide that actually kids helped create. You know, I work with a teacher in, in the Seattle area and she ref, she's like, Nope, I'm, nope, I'm not typing that.

Julie: Somebody get up here and start typing as we talk about what the choices are today. And, and so it's really about ownership for kids. It doesn't have to be pretty, and it doesn't have to be static. Those kinds of structures that can help you, um, really help kids own their own journey um, and their, and their learning really. Um, don't have to, don't have to take a lot of time, nor should it.  

Olivia: And I like the work time opportunities chart on page 78 too. The graphics in the book are gorgeous and they're so authentic. It, they're not perfect. They're not Canva-produced. They're like, in the moment, let's get it done. And so. You know, what is our call to action in the book? You say it's really twofold. So James, do start us off, you know, what, [00:35:00] what can we do to get this going? 

James: Yeah. So I, I think it's recognizing, I mean, we, we just spoke a couple weeks ago and, and, you know, you know, your, your audience, the systems that are in place in your school, you know, your, your students best, you know, your department best. So it's really, um, the call to action is, is. slowing down for a second, thinking about these mantras, and they're very interconnected, right? We actually had some trouble with some deciding, you know, this one's 51% more time that they can do, but like 49%, uh, you know, students own their learn journey. So it really, it's almost even simpler than three in some ways.

James: Right? And it's, and, and that's a learner-centered environment, right? Which we talk about like in this center. I mean, that's really taking time to slow down and, and. I love that Julie mentioned when, when your class is, has a, a menu of, of, of work time opportunities or, or you're doing an open-ended task like this, let's meet somewhere. You have now a wonderful [00:36:00] time to meet with kids and catch up with them. Right. And, and those, the, the one-on-one, we talk about that and we talk about the maybe most underutilized resource in all of teaching is the one-on-one. 'cause we think there's no time for it, but we know how powerful it is. 

James: We know that eight minutes, five minutes with a kid can sometimes do much better than an hour just sitting in the corner, them sitting in the corner watching you. So that, that's just a small snippet of just like, I hope that you're hearing this in the call to action is like, wow, my. I can just make such a difference. I can make such an impact. Um, I don't have to rush. I don't have to, um, I don't have to feel like everything, like this pressure cooker. I can, I can relate to my students that I, I care about you just like how Julie started this, like, and that I'm in this with you. Whether it's AI or anything like, and we're learning together and, and structures can be flexible. We're doing this together. 

Olivia: Yeah. Beautifully said. Julie. You know what else?

Julie: I would just, just, I agree with everything James said. I would just add on that, you know, so [00:37:00] many of these, um, the mon the, the time and the care we put into, um, the mantras that we created, if we started again, we probably could create three more mantras. So we invite you to, uh, because the more work you do, good work produces good work, right? And good thinking and, and collaboration. And so for, for us, we would say, you know, lean into our mantras to get started. You can adopt or adapt any of them. Borrow them from us. That's, that's why they're there. You know, we, we, we, we, we created them off of the good work that we're doing within our own circles, and then the people with whom we support.

Julie: And then, you know, take a moment and create some of your own mantras. What a great team meeting protocol. We give you a protocol in our book and, uh, you can use that or adopt it and adapt it as well. And think about how those mantras, um, I'll lean back into something James kicked us off with, um, which was the idea that the mantra or the mindset piece, uh, helps [00:38:00] you center anchor the things that you're doing in your work and in your classroom and in your team. And, um, for us it was an exercise of clearing the noise, you know? We started thinking about this book during the pandemic, uh, a little, actually a little before the pandemic, then the pandemic, and then after the pandemic, clearing the noise and naming what's most important, and then, uh, getting into your work and setting that purpose.

Julie: That's what those mantras are for. So you know, we say, go get 'em. You know, come, come, come join us. And, uh, we hope that you'll find some joy in, in putting some firm beliefs around your own mantras as well. 

Olivia: Well, I'm with you and I'm, I'm in it to win it. 

Julie: And we're super excited. We, uh, on behalf of both of us, we wanna thank you, Olivia, for… 

James: Yeah, thanks.

Julie: …not only the, the, uh, the topics that you curate. The real conversations that you have with people, um, doing real work. I mean, James and I are the real deal because we do the real work and we don't want it any other way. And so you're, you're with [00:39:00] us in that, um, and just the resources that you provide and we're, we're really appreciative of not only you highlighting the work that we're doing, but also that we have this valuable resource that we can poke into all of your, um, episodes.

Julie: As well as all your channels to share with teachers, uh, that we are collaborating with because there's something there for everyone. And so we hope to follow up with you, um, and give some resources that people can, can then use outside of the book, um, as well to get started, but also, um to be a supportive part of your learning community as well. Thank you. So thank you. 

Olivia: Thank you for those kind, so much words. Um, and I think my favorite thing about both of you is you truly and your heart of hearts believe and know that all learners can. You trust that we can all do this and, um, that's what this book speaks to. You know, if there's one big heart mantra around The Limitless Classroom, uh, we can deepen our [00:40:00] learning because we are in this together.

Olivia: So thank you both of you for taking the time to have this conversation and um, take care. 

Julie: Thanks. 

James: Thank you so much. 

Julie: Appreciate it. 

Olivia: Schoolutions Coaching and Teaching Strategies is created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Thank you to my older son Benjamin, who created the music playing in the background. You can follow and listen to Schoolutions wherever you get your podcasts or subscribe to never miss an episode and watch on YouTube. Thank you to my guests, Julie Wright and James Goldberg for sharing how we can create classroom communities where kids develop genuine curiosity that fuels deep transferrable learning.

Olivia: Now, I'd love to hear from you. Send me an email at schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com. Let me know what resonated most from my conversation with Julie and James. Tune in every Monday for the best research-backed coaching and teaching strategies you can apply right away to better the lives of the children in your [00:41:00] care. Stay tuned for my bonus episodes every Friday where I'll reflect and share connections to what I learned from the guests that week. See you then.