Schoolutions: Teaching Strategies to Strengthen School Culture, Empower Educators, & Inspire Student Growth

The 7 MUST-HAVE Factors for Successful Instructional Coaching with Jim Knight

• Olivia Wahl • Season 4 • Episode 35

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Learn the 7 must-have factors for successful instructional coaching in this video featuring Jim Knight. From the Impact Cycle to the partnership approach, these tips will help you coach for success!

Join me in this enlightening conversation with instructional coaching pioneer Jim Knight, founder of the Instructional Coaching Group. We explore his book, The Definitive Guide to Instructional Coaching: Seven Factors for Success.

Jim shares wisdom from his 25+ years of research, revealing how the partnership approach makes teachers 4.5 times more likely to implement new strategies compared to directive approaches.

Learn practical communication techniques, how to navigate system challenges, and why focusing on student outcomes is the true measure of coaching success. 

Jim's pioneering work has shaped how instructional coaching is implemented in schools worldwide, making this episode valuable for education professionals at all levels.

Perfect for instructional coaches, educational leaders, and anyone interested in improving teaching practices through collaborative professional development.

Episode Mentions:

Jim’s Mentioned Books:


Chapters:

00:00 - Introduction to Jim Knight 

02:00 - Overview of the Seven Success Factors 

05:25 - The Foundation of Partnership in Coaching 

11:25 - Communication Skills for Effective Coaching 

16:45 - Leadership Approaches for Coaches 

20:30 - The Impact Cycle and Flexibility 

24:25 - Using Data to Drive Coaching Conversations 

33:10 - Creating and Maintaining Instructional Playbooks 

38:45 - Navigating Systemic Challenges in Coaching 

43:15 - Learning from Mistakes and Continuous Growth



When coaches, teachers, administrators, and families work hand in hand, it fosters a school atmosphere where everyone is inspired and every student is fully engaged in their learning journey.

Olivia: [00:00:00] Hi there. I'm so glad you're here. Here's what you'll gain by listening to the very last second of this conversation with the one and only Jim Knight. Through my conversation with Jim, you'll learn about why effective instructional coaching is built on seven essential success factors that create conditions for both teachers and students to flourish.

Olivia: These are centered on authentic partnerships where coaches support teacher autonomy while maintaining a clear focus on improving student outcomes. You'll leave the conversation understanding why partnership is the foundation of effective coaching. Why coaching must be focused on student outcomes and why systemic support is essential, but often imperfect.

Olivia: Stay with us. I'm so happy to have you join our conversation today. This is Schoolutions Coaching and Teaching Strategies, the podcast that extends education [00:01:00] beyond the classroom. A show that offers educators and caregivers strategies to try right away and ensure every student receives the inspiration and support they need to thrive.

Olivia: I am Olivia Wahl and I am in disbelief that I am able to be in conversation with the one and only Jim Knight. Um, Jim Knight's Book Instructional Coaching. It came out in 2007. It has been a beacon for me over all of the years that I've been coaching and outside of the classroom having my own classroom.

Olivia: And the neat fact about that book is that it offered the first extended description of instructional coaching. As the founder of the Instructional Coaching Group, Jim leads the Intensive Instructional Coaching Institute. Host a Popular Coaching Conversations podcast and created the world's leading conference for instructional coaching.

Olivia: Our conversation today will focus on seven factors [00:02:00] for successful instructional coaching based on Jim's book. I have it right here. It is fantastic. The Definitive Guide to Instructional Coaching: Seven Factors for Success.Jim, welcome. I am honored to have you as a guest today. 

Jim: I'm honored to be here and grateful for the chance to talk about it. So, are you an art person? Do you like art? 

Olivia: I do. 

Jim: So Rothko inspired that cover. I mean, it's, doesn't really look like a Rothko, uh, work of art. 'cause he says his, his covers are like, uh, a window into the infinite is what he started, what that I read in one gallery. But there is a Rothko painting that kind of inspired that. So that's how we, we justify it. We say we're just trying to be like Mark Rothko. That's what we're trying to do. 

Olivia: Um, well the other layer that I continue to circle back is so many coaches just wanna be like you, Jim. And so, um, you know, I've [00:03:00] chatted actually before this conversation with all different colleagues and this is, it feels more like a 201, not a 101 when it comes to the seven success factors because the way that I've framed the questions it, I've spoken to coaches that have said, okay, yes, we understand these seven success factors, but what if. What if, but what if? And they knew that I had the gift of speaking with you.

Olivia: So that's how I framed these questions. And the most important thing that I want folks to get out of this conversation is what has to be in place for coaches to flourish. Um, so we're gonna jump in - before we do, what nugget of research or what researcher have you been leaning on more than others lately?

Jim: Lately I've been working a lot with Bryan Goodwin, who wrote the book, The New Clark Classroom Instruction That Works. And uh, he and I have met a few times. We met just March 11th, so a [00:04:00] little while ago. And, um, uh, so I've been trying to figure out what would instructional coaching for the new classroom instruction book look like.

Jim: And we're getting close to having our draft of a book done around instructional coaching for, The New Classroom Instruction That Works and Marzano's book was so influential and now we have this revised version, so it's really exciting to be a part of it. He'd be the research I’d…We have a thing at our conference called the Don Deshler Leadership Award, and every year we highlight someone, uh, that we say we wouldn't be who we are if it wasn't for those people. So people like, well, Don Deshler first, but then Michael Fullan, Joellen Killion. Parker Palmer was one of the award winners last year it was Art Costa and uh, Bob Garmston the year before that. Zaretta Hammond and all those people are people that have, they're the, they're the giants who shoulders we stand on. So yes, a lot of people have been behind what we've done. 

Olivia: Yes, they have. Um, I am being [00:05:00] very, um, bold in asking, and, you know, the preface for this book really sets the tone and I was hoping I could read a quote from the preface. Is that okay with you? 

Jim: Yeah, sure. You could do whatever you like. 

Olivia: Ah, thanks. That's, that's wonderful. Here we go, “Coaching is essential for the kind of growth we need to see in schools. Real learning occurs in real life when people work hard to solve real life challenges. Workshops, books and webinars can provide us with an overview of ideas, but we only adopt and internalize these ideas when we apply them to our professional practice. That kind of real life learning requires goals that matter deeply to us and to our students, both because they're based on a clear understanding of reality and because we have chosen them for ourselves. 

Olivia: I think that's a good opener for us. So, can you name the seven success factors and then we'll break them down through questions?

Jim: Sure. Um, I [00:06:00] better be able to, I've been talking about them for years and it's, the success factors are the result of 25 years of research. So I spent, uh, close to a decade every day in schools in Topeka, Kansas. Before that, we worked with the Lawrence Kansas Schools. Then we had a, a, a research partnership with Beaverton, Oregon for three years. And then after that, another three years with Othello, Washington. We had different kinds of funding to continuously refine our coaching. And then we've continued to do research in different ways. I've got a group I'm gonna meet later today where we're, we're applying Bryan Goodwin's research using the Impact Cycle.

Jim: So we're, we're, and it's, uh, partly reading the literature. What does the literature have to tell us? Whether it's about goal setting or describing strategies or whatever it might be, relationships. Um. Then trying things out and making modifications, making a lot of mistakes. And so I would say in many ways the seven success factors are a record of the things we've learned after making a lot of mistakes. And so to pay attention to them, I [00:07:00] think is a way of reducing the likelihood that you'll face those mistakes. 

Olivia: Mm-hmm. 

Jim: And they're kind of organized in three categories. So the first category is who I am, and that's the beliefs I have. What are the beliefs, the assumptions that guide my work? How do I communicate and what are my coaching skills? And then the third thing is, how do I lead, how do I lead myself to get clear on my purpose and organize my life to be consistent with that purpose? And then how do I lead others? So I'm a multiplier, not a diminisher. And so I, I balance ambition with humility. So the first thing who I am, it's really like, it, it's really the, partnership approach to working with people.

Olivia: Yes. 

Jim: Second part, what I do, the second, if it's a Venn Diagram. One part is my, my beliefs, my communication skills, my leadership. The second Venn Diagram is what I do. And so the, what I do is, first off, I have a coaching cycle I use and we talk about the Impact Cycle. And we spent 10 years pretty systematically refining that cycle through a process I call [00:08:00] Lean Design research to try to come up with the most efficient way to move things forward.

Olivia: Yeah. 

Jim: And then to make that cycle work, you need data and you need, um, strategies to help you hit the goal. Once you use data to establish the goal. Data helps you see where you are. It helps you describe where you want to get to, and it helps you monitor the progress if it's working or not. And then strategies take you there, the teaching strategies.

Jim: So this, the, what I do part is, um, the coaching cycle data and strategies, and then the third cycle that kind of surrounds those two circles, uh, is where I work. That the system - the system gives me enough time to do my work. There's theoretical alignment across the system, a policy around confidentiality. There's role clarity, so I know what I'm doing. There's connections within the system, so ideas get shared really quickly. If you've got a coach in every school, you can pretty, you know, if one coach, coach sees something really cool in a classroom, if you have coaches in every school, you should be able to spread that across the [00:09:00] school like almost simultaneously.

Jim: So. But it's pretty hard. Even if you had all six of the first success factors, it's pretty hard to flourish if the system doesn't support you. So system support would be the seventh one, and I would say those are must haves not nice to have. 

Olivia: Mm-hmm. 

Jim: It's gonna be hard to be an effective coach if you can't listen and question effectively. It's gonna be hard to be an effective coach if you can't set goals or you don't have strategies to help you hit the goals. And it's gonna be hard to be an effective coach if you're doing so many non coaching things, you never get to do coaching. So those three things, who I am, what I do, where I work, they articulate, I would say, seven must haves for coaches.

Olivia: Yeah. And I think when it comes to the system, we're actually gonna end with that in our conversation. But it really does have to be there and I have served many different school districts with many layers of support systemically. But as you said, if it's not in place and everyone is not in [00:10:00] the communication or shared understanding about the roles, about what is and is in coaching isn't, then it, it, it's just a uphill battle it feels like.

Jim: Yeah. That's a good way of putting it. It's an uphill, I think it's still possible to succeed. Nothing's ever perfect, but, uh, it's a lot easier when you're working in alignment with each other and everybody has an understanding of what you're doing. And there's alignment in your beliefs and there's, there's support for the coach to do what they need to do and the growth of the coach. So, when it, when it, when, when we all work together, it's a lot more effective. You can still succeed. It's just a lot easier when you and the principal are partners. 

Olivia: Well, and I think it just doesn't allow for the full potential. Would be another way of saying it. The idea of pollination. So let's talk partnership because again, I have worked with coaches that really want to have authentic, true partnerships with the teachers that they're coaching, and yet sometimes administration wants them to focus on other practices outside of [00:11:00] that, what the teacher needs or what the coach wants to focus on with the teacher. So how do we get around that?

Jim: Well, I'm always nervous about putting a Band-Aid on a problem, and so I think. If there isn't widespread understanding of what coaches do and why they do what they do and a shared, then you need to deal with that problem. Not saying, let's pretend that the root problem isn't dealt with. So I think you wanna set the system up for success, we’be got a book called Evaluating Instructional Coaching. We've got rubrics for the seven success factors. Now, it might be different what you do, but you need to have a shared understanding of what the coaching is gonna be, and then you need to evaluate the coaches. And evaluate the program using those standards.

Jim: And so ours are built around the seven success factors. We talk about the success factors, the success criteria, the rubrics for assessment, and whether it's that or something else. Too often coaches are evaluated, it's someone who doesn't really understand coaching, using the tool develop for teachers. It's not really that helpful. So [00:12:00] to have that assessments in in place, I, I think, have a shared understanding upfront is important. Um. But I think, I think, uh, that idea of partnership is not understood very well. So maybe I could just say a couple things about that. So, we talk about, uh, facilitative, dialogical and directive conversations.

Olivia: Yeah. 

Jim: It's like fancy words, but it, it's simpler to say partnering and telling. And so then we distinguish between those three different types of conversations with two criteria: choice and sharing. And so when I take a, a facilitative approach to coaching and things like the European Mentoring and Coaching Council and, and the International Coaching Federation, a lot of their coaching, the coaches don't share ideas.

Jim: They set their expertise aside because they say this person knows everything they need to do to solve their problem. If I was to share my ideas, it would be disempowering or it would just get in the way. I'm gonna [00:13:00] ask good questions. I'm gonna listen, but I'm not gonna share my ideas. And I think, you can start in the facilitative world by asking a question, like, you've probably thought a lot about this, what are you thinking you might do?

Jim: And just opening up the conversation. 'cause often they, they've got great ideas. More often than not, they have great, great, but, but if it becomes clear that they don't have the knowledge they need to succeed. And you as an expert have the knowledge. We would say a coach needs to be, they have expertise, but they don't act like experts.

Jim: Then you move into the dialogical approach, and so the dialogical approach. Facilitative approach is, I, you have choice in what you do. You're the decision maker, but I don't, I set my knowledge aside. I don't share that the dialogical approach is you still have choice, but now I share ideas, but I share it in a, in a way that I'm not telling you what to do.

Jim: I just say, let me share this idea and tell me what you think. [00:14:00] And the thing is, no one does anything unless they choose to do it. So the dialogical approach is just saying, it's okay to tell me what you think you're safe here. Tell me, don't pretend you're gonna do something and go off and do that. Let's talk.

Jim: And, and then you have a much greater chance of having an, an impact when you take the dialogical approach, where you share ideas and uh, the person has choice. The telling approach is, um, I'm gonna tell you what to do. I'm gonna share ideas, and you don't have a choice. So if the principal said to a teacher, you know, you're getting into school just before the bell goes, you need to get in half an hour earlier at least you need to be here. You need to be here before the kids get here. The principal's probably not gonna be okay with, uh, the teacher saying, I don't think I want to do that. That's a telling conversation. This is something you, you have to do. And for us coaching is, is partnering, that's facilitative and dialogical telling is necessary.

Jim: Sometimes you have to communicate a message and it has to come through clearly, and you [00:15:00] can shift between those different things. But it, the, the thing that I would say and, and, and I studied this for a dissertation is when you take the partnering approach, there's a much greater likelihood the person will embrace the ideas.

Olivia: Yes. 

Jim: When I did my dissertation studying this, we did two different workshops. One that was directive and one that was a partnering one, people were four and a half times more likely to take the thing to, to plan, to implement the thing they learned from the partnership approach than the other approach.

Jim: So when you recognize people are gonna make a choice, they're way more effective. So I, I think a big part, uh, uh, uh, of making this work is, is we want leaders to understand that it's not soft to treat teachers like professionals. It's the fastest way to make change happen. 

Olivia: Absolutely. And I would say too, I think one of the best things that ever happened to me before I had children was being a coach, because I also see caregiving and being a parent with facilitative and dialogical, like you [00:16:00] are going to get so much more commitment from children as well.

Olivia: And so thinking of if this is the type of partnership that coaches and teachers are modeling in front of children, how beautiful for them to also see that there's some choice and voice for them. Um, what communication, let's shift then to communication, because so much of this is about communication. What communication pitfalls do you see coaches running into still with that facilitative and dialogic stance? 

Jim: Yeah. We keep trying to decide, is it dialogic or dialogical? I'm writing this book with Christian van Nieuwerburgh on that very topic and we're like. Is it dialogic or dialogical? So, so I don't know, you, you might be casting the final vote here, Olivia, that we're with dialogic. He's, he's going dialogic, I'm going dialogical. Um, I think, uh, there are skills to coaching [00:17:00] the way there are skills to anything you might do. A surgeon, for example, learns how to hold the scalpel. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Jim: And she knows that she moves this way or does this, or, and she learns how to read what's happening during surgery. Um, and the skills of coaching are the way you listen, the way you ask questions, the way you, the way you share ideas, dialogically where you share ideas precisely, but the other person's, the decision maker. The way you don't give advice. You might, you might share ideas, but you don't try to control what the other person does. You don't take away choice and advice is saying, this is what I think you should do. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Jim: And then, um, and so I'd say, I don't know if there's any one thing, but I, I think, you know, scrutinizing video of your coaching conversations, watching the other person analyzing, you can get a little free app for, um uh, chess where you hit the button to see how much you [00:18:00] talk and how much the other person talks to see how much you've been talking. You can use AI to analyze it too. Um, but I think, you know, the heart of the matter is appreciating the other person, noticing the other person. But the heart of the matter is listening and questioning and explaining things dialogically.

Jim: And it doesn't come naturally. You know, we really want to tell the per we have the perfect solution. I know I'm not supposed to give advice, but in this one case I think it's really, really important. And, um, and there's a whole bunch of reasons for that. Part of it is just our impulse for certainty, but I think coaches just like a, a, a bunch of kids learning how to play hockey, they have to learn how to skate, they have to learn how to stick handle.

Jim: They have to learn how to skate backwards, how to pass the puck, how to raise the puck. Coaches have to learn those skills to where they're second nature and, and video is probably the quickest way to do that. I mean, they can practice with colleagues, but video recording your coaching conversations and watching the, the collaborating teacher as much as you watch yourself is [00:19:00] really powerful.

Olivia: I have been lately, um, facilitating coaching labs, but we've been keeping it to triads and it's been so powerful to have two coaches together. One that is trying is to work with the teacher or a group of teachers through an event that we've planned, and then have the colleague, uh, the other coach, be taking voluminous notes of what is happening, see, heard, and it's been really interesting.

Olivia: I also had the gift of, um, speaking with, uh, Haesun Moon and uh, what she uplifted for me in conversation was you have to be really careful with your questions as well. And so I think something, as a coach that I'm refining and I learned long ago, don't ask questions that you already know the answer to because that will lean right to telling, right to fixing.

Olivia: But even more than that, acknowledge and listen to the [00:20:00] person that is sharing. And if they are saying something that doesn't feel good or that's not working well, there's a way to notice that. To hear it. To see it. And then I adore that she says, Well then what did you do? That sounds really, really hard. What did you do when you were working to solve that? And it immediately shifts and, and helps that person see, whoa, I have navigated that. So, I think it's fascinating. Um, something else, I know that's a struggle when it comes to leadership because that's another success factor. How can coaches hone their approach with leadership but keep it separate than the school leaders or different, how is it different? 

Jim: Well, I would say that the coach is a peer, they're not an administrator. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Jim: But teachers are leaders. Paraprofessionals can be leaders. And so I would [00:21:00] say coaches are, are leaders in the sense that, um, do you know Harry Potter? That idea of, um. There's that character, Mad-Eye Moody I think his name is, and he's got his eyes going in two directions at the same time. 

Olivia: Yes. 

Jim: Well, a coach kind of has to be like that. They're, but I think teachers should be too. They're looking at this particular classroom and this particular teacher and her students or his students, and they're looking at the system and they're saying, how do I affect the system?

Jim: How do I make a change? And, but I would say, um, when I'm coaching a teacher, it should feel like a teacher talking with a teacher. It shouldn't feel any different. That's how, how I would see it. Um, I mean, coaches tend to be highly emotionally intelligent. Um, I've seen, I don't know, maybe a hundred thousand coaches now. Thousands and thousands of coaches. They tend to be, they tend to be really, um, I mean, they're wonderful. We're blessed to be [00:22:00] working with coaches because they're such a great audience, but they tend to be real learners. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Jim: And uh, and so in many ways they can, I mean, part of what you're doing in an organization is creating a culture and if they're aware of the values of the culture, they can, they can embody those, they can sort of walk the talk around culture and the system.

Jim: But I would want everybody in the organization to say what we're trying to do in creating culture, creating the place where we wanna work or we feel psychologically safe and supported and appreciated. And so I think when you look at culture, everybody's creating it and they're creating it just the way any other teacher in the school will be creating it.

Olivia: Yeah. I think too, the idea of professional capital is something that's near and dear to my heart. So as I'm working with different schools and systems, I'm thinking of the human, social, and then the decisional and I, I think that the best systems. Often it's that their decisional capital is so on point because they know the [00:23:00] skills, the knowledge, the talents, they know the relationships and in between the teachers and the colleagues.

Olivia: So I think that when it comes to leadership, I appreciate that you just acknowledged it's not just that administrators in the building who are leaders. Everyone, when we use that term leadership, can be a leader within the school, the children as well. So I, I think that that's amazing. Um, and 

Jim: I just wanna add one, sorry to interrupt.

Olivia: Yeah, no, go ahead. 

Jim: I gotta work on my not interrupting skills, but I, I would add one thing is that I feel the coach's job in some ways is that create the conditions for others to flourish. Yeah. And I feel that's the, that's the job of any leader in a system is to create conditions where other people can flourish. Teachers and students. Yes. So to me that's, that's a pretty parallel position. 

Olivia: Yeah, I, I agree. Um, and then I'm thinking of the coaching process, and I'd love for you to speak to the flexibility that can be [00:24:00] possible with the Impact Cycle for a coach, depending on the different teachers that they're working with.

Jim: To me, the, the, the, the measure of success is changes is powerful changes in student outcomes. So it could be achievement or it could be engagement, or it could be wellbeing. But, um, to my mind, if nothing's changed for kids, then the coaching hasn't been successful. Uh, that's how I see it. 

Jim: The purpose of coaching is, you know, our, our sort of motto is excellent instruction for every student, every day, and every class, everywhere. And so everything's about that. It's about how can we, can we do that? Now, you're not likely gonna achieve that goal without something that's, uh, increases the efficacy of the teachers themselves as well, but, 

Olivia: Right.

Jim: You know, you can't, I don't think you can bully people into better schools. It happens through, it happens through appreciation and seeing the good in the other person [00:25:00] and communicating, and it happens through growth and development. Um, so I would say that first off, and, um, the second thing I would say is we made a lot of mistakes developing the Impact Cycle.

Jim: We spent 10 years developing it. And so I think before you go to radically changing things, I'd wanna try it out first and see, like, for, I'll give you a little example. We found it's really important for teachers to get a clear picture of reality. It takes extra time. That's probably another week in the cycle. I just did a podcast a few weeks ago with someone who did her dissertation on, uh, on uh, the Impact Cycle. She said it's night and day uh, what happens when teachers watch themselves on video and when they don't. That may not be video, but to get a clear. So if you skip that without having had the experience, you won't know what you've missed.

Jim: [00:26:00] So I think having a pretty clear sense of what the cycle is and what it entails, but I is really important. And it is a, it is an an adaptive model. The teacher picks the goal, the teacher talks about how they wanna learn the strategy. It's not gonna work when you first try it out most likely. You're gonna have to make modifications and changes in the improvement cycle.

Jim: So it's, it's a, it's an agile adaptive model. It's not technocratic. It's, it's adaptive, but I, I think if you hit the goal, you succeeded. And you know, do I work with one teacher or two teachers? Well, if they both really care about the goal, working together is great. If one doesn't care about the goal, well it's probably not gonna be very successful.

Jim: And there's different ways of trying things and adjusting. And, you know, you talked about the book, Instructional Coaching, pretty much everything except the partnership principles in that book has changed. So we're not done learning about the Impact Cycle. People could definitely refine it and improve it.

Jim: We should [00:27:00] always be getting better, more efficient, faster. And it's, the other thing I would say is it's never really gonna go exactly the way it's supposed to go. There's gonna be something happening. Like today there was a, a electricity was out in one of the schools. One of the coaches that we're gonna talk to on Friday, you know, there's always something comes up and somebody gets sick, you know? So it, it never goes exactly the way you want. You do your best. But the structure, the closer you are to the structure, I think, and not to be technocratic about it, you like, you're gonna, you have to make it your, you're gonna pick your own questions, you know, over time it's gonna be something you just do naturally, like breathing almost.

Jim: But I, I think I wouldn't wanna cut a whole bunch of things out without knowing what, without trying them and seeing how they work. That's the way I'd put it. 

Olivia: Yeah, I, I think something that's been so helpful, that idea of being in reality together and reflecting on that, something I've started to do, whether I'm coaching a teacher or coaching coaches a week before, I'm setting foot in that building, I've been [00:28:00] sending a Google Doc to all of the teachers I’ll be in cycles with.

Olivia: And we're calling it sparks based on Karrie Fansler’s Responsive Coaching Cycle, and there are, uh, five different buckets of sparks. It can be something that a student is struggling with or a teacher is struggling with that you wanna study, a practice you want to incorporate. So five different buckets.

Olivia: And what's been interesting is the teachers are all typing into the same Google Doc I noticed that is, they'll see a colleague say something like, oh, that's really interesting. And so they'll even modify theirs. So giving a week to develop those sparks and it's such a beautiful, open to our planning session to begin with something that they're captivated around, um, or buy. And then as you said, you only know it's working if you have the data or some type of cognitive engagement from students to show that there's growth. So what are some common [00:29:00] mistakes that you see coaches make when discussing data with teachers? 

Jim: Yeah, I got a couple thoughts about that. First off, just in terms of the changing idea, what can be changed? What couldn't be changed? What I would say I would be nervous about using data uh, not setting a goal that has some of the elements we've identified as essential. So it should be a goal that really matters. A power - we call that a powerful goal, and then we say it should be an easy goal.

Jim: Now, we're not saying you should have a, a goal that that doesn't, that's not challenging. You've got a classroom full of students. If you're setting a powerful goal, you're gonna have that challenge that, that, people like John Hattie talk about. And then we say it has to really matter to the teacher, and then it has to be pretty clearly articulated and uh, uh, I guess I don't really like the phrase has to be, but it's gonna be really hard for the goal to have an impact if isn't, isn't a student-focused [00:30:00] goal.

Jim: Right. That's what we found anyway. We found, we, I started out, I'm gonna teach you how to use this strategy, and people would try the strategies for a while and they, they would fizzle out. And so we shifted to. Well, what if we may talk about the change in students and, and then, and then we've got a much, much more sustainable implementation.

Jim: I mean, you can try it if you want, but I bet dollars to donuts that if you focus on the strategy, you go back a year later, they're not using the strategy. If you focus on the change in students, people sustain the thing. Then in terms of data, there's just a whole bunch of things. I've gotta book Data Rules where we go through this, but we, we say that the data should foster hope.

Jim: And that means it's probably tied to professional development because it's not enough to have some kind of data, like what do I do with the data? So combining the data with, uh, professional development's important. It should be gathered frequently, like weekly. To say, I want the scores to go up by six, six weeks from now, or two months from now, or three months from now.[00:31:00] 

Jim: It's like a GPS that doesn't tell you if you're on track or off, and odds are you're off track. Odds are it's not working. So you have to be measuring, measuring progress. And then, um, yeah, obviously it should be valid and the teacher and the coach should have a shared understanding of it. It should be based on what research says about data to gather.

Jim: It should be as easy to gather as possible. And, um, I think all those things are, are, are critical elements. The, the last thing I'd say about this is, um, getting better is a weird thing. Um, I saw this quote today and I won't have it exactly right, it's a Buddhist quote, but it's like. You are perfect in everything you are in everything you do, and you could be better. And I think that's a great explanation of what happens with, 'cause I, I think, I don't know why if we're programmed for this, but if, if someone says, let's look at the data, it's like, well, what am I doing wrong? 

Olivia: Yes. 

Jim: Am I not doing something right? [00:32:00] And I, I think we want some, when we say coaching, fosters hope. It's to say it, it helps us be more efficacious and it helps us do what we really need to do to create a setting where, um, getting better is a cultural norm. You know, to focus on that cultural norm is really critical. So the data can be embraced not as a, not as a negative, but as a thing to, and, and so we, we have very specific kind of curriculum-based measures around engagement or achievement or well-being.

Jim: Where you, you, you, you can see where you are. Where you want to get to and the data shows, it builds your efficacy 'cause you can see you're making progress. 

Olivia: Yes. And that's, that is the approach that I find, again, the most powerful with teachers because when it is that stance of what am I doing wrong, then it's defense. But I also feel like as a human being, I hate not knowing that I'm progressing and in some way toward whether it's something that [00:33:00] is just personal, um, or something as a teacher or coach. So even if the reality is not perfect, I feel actually it's cathartic to just know and then have a coach as a thought partner to say, okay, let's roll our sleeves up.

Olivia: Let's figure out how we can get better 'cause there's no such thing as perfect as you said. Um. And I think The Instructional Playbook, what I'm finding is I'm navigating crafting instructional playbooks with different school districts, different sets of coaches. It is this iterative, ongoing process that we have, common topics bubble up in different districts, and I've the privilege of working regionally at times. And so we've decided to create a shared playbook that is actually impacting several districts at once. But, um, what is your advice or recommendation for ensuring that playbooks become continuous? 

Jim: Yeah, so we would say the purpose of the [00:34:00] playbook is to translate knowledge into action. Pfeffer and Sutton in The Knowing-Doing Gap, they say that, uh, the trouble is we think talking about the something is the same as doing it. And so, and so what you do with the playbook is you develop the depth of knowledge you need in order to be able to share those strategies. And then you create communication tools, one-pagers and checklists to help you, help you, uh, communicate that clearly. If you can't explain it, they're not gonna do it right-

Jim: And so you have to be able to explain it and, and to create the one-pagers, we start by saying, well, what are the typical kind of goals we expect teachers to be setting here? What's it gonna look like? And so coaches should be central driving the process to say, here's what we've been seeing. Here are the goals. Then you can say, okay, well given where our focus is on particular teaching strategies and other things, what would be the strategies that would help teachers hit those goals? 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Jim: And maybe the goals aren't complete. You have to add some to it, but what are less than 20 strategies that are highest impact in the likelihood of people [00:35:00] hitting those goals? And then you create one-pagers and one-pagers. You don't have to do this, but we found the act of creating a one-pager forces you to have a deep understanding and. The one-pagers, uh, become pretty good communication tools. 'cause you say, this is what the research says, this is what the strategy is all about in one sentence, this is how teachers use it, this is how kids use it.

Jim: And then you can create checklists for the, for the different activities for those strategies. So I might have a one-pager on cooperative learning, but I might have a checklist on, uh, think-pair-share or jigsaw or round table or number line or whatever it might be. So, so the checklist then doesn't become something that you say, okay, well if God has created this checklist, so you need to do it like this, or you're gonna go to hell, you say, let's go through this checklist and see how you wanna modify it to make it fit your students to make it fit the way you teach.

Olivia: Yeah. 

Jim: And if the teacher says, you know, I'd like to just brutally ruin this checklist as I do it, we do it, you do it, thing, can I just do the You do it thing? I don't like the other parts. And so what I do, [00:36:00] and when I take the dialog approach is I say, well. I wouldn't do it that way, and here's my thinking, but you're gonna do what you're gonna do. We have a goal, let's see if you hit the goal. We can try it that way. And if we don't hit the goal, we'll come back and look at it. We have the goal. So the goal, instead of me being the standard of excellence, it's the change in kids, it becomes, so it's more rigorous than just trying to focus on, you know, doing according to what the checklist says.

Jim: And then as we have those dialog conversations. Teachers will have great ideas. And they'll say, you know, I really think the kids need to share ideas before they do that next step in the checklist. Let's try it like that. And as you learn from teachers and learn from students, that knowledge gets shared. So the playbook becomes a living document. It's the, it's the place where you store learning about, uh, teaching. And you have to guard against making it too big and too complicated and filled with diagrams and charts. It's the core strategies clearly articulated. And then, uh, one-pagers [00:37:00] and checklists. 

Jim: And, uh, and it's, it's, it's our, and then you may have something on there as a strategy and you say, you know, there's something way better. I saw ASCD or learning forward, I think we should try this and let's, let's replace this strategy. And, and so that it's a living document continually getting better and better. And then when a new coach comes to school, um, they, they get handed the playbook and they have this document to give them a good sense of where they are. 

Olivia: I think it's one of the most powerful sustainability tools to ensure that coaching initiatives get off the ground with everyone on the same page. Um, pun intended, but also it's incredibly - one of the districts I'm serving, uh, one of the coaches was getting her admin at the same time, and she is now an assistant principal.

Olivia: She's gone. And so thank goodness we've been working on the Instructional Playbook. So when they do bring a new coach in the, this tool will be [00:38:00] created. Uh, the other aspect we're finding is that it's been invaluable to bring teachers in on the conversation as you were just saying. So if our cycle was focused on conferring to inform student growth and student-driven instruction, the teacher has to be constantly a part of the conversation around the checklist and offering feedback. So these are not just created by the coaches, it's that shared, um, input, I would say too. And that's been powerful. 

Jim: That'll work out in the coaching cycle too. 

Olivia: Yeah, it's been good. 

Jim: I mean, you could consult students too. I mean, kids will give you lots of good ideas. I got the idea. I was flying on a plane across the US, and I sat beside this person who worked with Microsoft and she was a trainer. And um, I said, oh, what do you do? She said, well, I go to places. I teach people how to use software. I said, uh, well, how do you [00:39:00] make sure they know what to do when you leave? And she said, well, we create playbooks. I was like, ooh, that's where it came from. So then I said, oh, we gotta create those playbooks. That's how the whole idea came to be.

Olivia: Well, those playbooks are pretty magnificent, and they also help systemic implementation of coaching that system structure. So let's go to the reality. How can coaches, because we began the conversation here, how can coaches still nudge forward and make progress if the systemic structure isn't there? 

Jim: You know, I think the systemic structure should be there.

Olivia: Right. 

Jim: And, uh, hiring coaches without giving the administrators a day of professional development or coaching for the leader of the program to support the system. I mean, uh, it's a small, it's, it's a day. That's quite a bit of time, but it's a small effort in terms of providing support for uh, for [00:40:00] coaches.

Jim: And if we're gonna invest in a full-time person whose job is professional development, we probably should spend a few days of times spread across a year and making sure that person can flourish and we have the system in place. So I think the first thing is the Band-Aid, but regardless, here you are and you're gonna do the best that you can with what you do.

Jim: So, so what do you do? The second thing is, uh, it's that Mad-Eye Moody thing of being a coach, working with the teacher, but you're also looking at the system. How can we affect, affect the system? I think if you can come back to the question of What are we trying to accomplish, how are we trying to evaluate it?

Jim: What are our standards, what's our vision for what coaching should be? And there's a shared understanding, whether it's the seven success factors or not, there's a shared understanding of these are our standards, these are our rubrics, this is what we're looking at. And then in terms of, you know, and part of that is system support that the coach actually has time to, to, to do coaching. And, and in the assessment, you should be drawing a direct line [00:41:00] between what the coach does and the changes in the students. 

Olivia: Yes. 

Jim: I mean, you can say the scores went up. So coaching is great, but there's so many variables. You know, what if your team won the NCAA championship the day before the test and everybody's happy, or you know, you've got a new principal or, you know, every group of students is different.

Jim: So, uh, so I think you want to be really clear on the goals that were set and hit and, and how it came about and you can refine the goals to make sure they're more lined up with what the assessment's going to do. But I think, I think that the assessment part is really key in terms of what happens and then how does a coach work within that, that role?

Olivia: Yeah, 

Jim: I think two things: One of them is coaching up is the same as coaching a peer. You still work from the partnership pers perspective. You still, you still don't tell the person what to do. You still ask questions and you listen. You share ideas in a way that honors the capacity of that person to think.

Jim: And so the whole interaction [00:42:00] is one that honors the other person's perspective. Not in an ingenuine way, in an authentic way, but you work from a place of saying, this person, this person knows a lot, and I want to acknowledge that. At the same time, you're, you're purpose-driven. And so by, by being purpose-driven, you can come back to your purpose.

Jim: You're grounded, and, and then you really listen to the other person. You work with them instead of like, oh, I know what their problem is. There's a tendency in hierarchies to objectify someone who's not where you are in the hierarchy. 

Olivia: Yes. 

Jim: So leaders can talk about teachers in, um, objectifying ways, oh…they don't care about kids. Uh, and then teachers can talk about that way, about about the students. Those kids don't wanna learn. But it goes the other way too. Kids can talk in objective ways about teachers, which could be pretty hateful. Teachers can talk about the boss in that way. The hierarchy messes with our ability to see the real person.

Jim: We start to say, well, what's the boss want? Or you wouldn't believe what we heard [00:43:00] today. And you don't really see the person. But I think the partnership approach that we talk about, the seven partnership principles, it's, it's really about seeing the person, appreciating the person, valuing them, and, and making sure that their voice is heard and that you, you, you, the last thing you do is treat them like an object. You, you hear the real person and respond to them. And when you're grounded in purpose, that gives you a grounding for courageous conversations about things that are, are grounded in respect. So I think that's a quick summary of it.

Olivia: And I, I think that it is a Band-Aid to say, you know what, if the system's not in place, but it is a reality. So I want to just highlight something you said of before you even consider bringing or beginning a coaching initiative, make sure that the, the leadership is considering bring the principals together and let them in on this is the expectation. And do some study around the seven success factors. [00:44:00] So that the roles are defined, there's that clear understanding, and then you're setting the coach up for success.

Olivia: It shouldn't be the coach having to pave that road for themselves, that pathway. Um, there's a quote that I wanted to end the conversation with because it highlights that idea that none of this work is perfect and that the only way we know we're growing is through making mistakes. So. Um, “Perhaps most important, this book documents the many mistakes we have made and what we've learned from those mistakes is we've developed our understanding of instructional coaching. If you were to read everything I've ever written in order of publication, (and you said this), you would undeniably read a chronicle of mistakes and lessons learned. I share mistakes encountered along the way here so that you can avoid making them in your practice.”

Olivia: And I love this quote, “As Eleanor Roosevelt famously said, ‘Learn from the mistakes of others. You can't live long enough to make them all [00:45:00] yourself.’ In that spirit. I hope this guide helps you to make your own mistakes and learn your own lessons. Let's keep the learning going because when we learn, so do our students.”

Olivia: Yes, indeed. Thank you so much for taking the time to have this conversation.

Jim: That sounded pretty good. I can't believe I wrote that. 

Olivia: You did. It was amazing. 

Jim: Thank you, Olivia. I loved it. It was a great conversation. I hope the first of many. I hope. 

Olivia: Same, same. Take care. 

Jim: You too. 

Olivia: Schoolutions Coaching & Teaching Strategies is created, produced and edited by me. Olivia Wahl. Thank you to my older son Benjamin, who created the music playing in the background. You can follow and listen to Schoolutions wherever you get your podcasts or subscribe to never miss an episode and watch on YouTube. Thank you to my guest, Jim Knight, for sharing seven essential success factors that effective instructional coaching is built upon. Now, [00:46:00] I'd love to hear from you. Send me an email at schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com.

Olivia: Let me know what resonated most from my conversation with Jim. And tune in every Monday for the best research-backed coaching and teaching strategies you can apply right away to better the lives of the children in your care. Stay tuned for my bonus episodes every Friday where I'll reflect and share connections to what I learned from the guest that week. See you then.

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