Engaging Teens: From Bored Passengers to Curious Explorers

In this S5E6 Schoolutions Teaching Strategies conversation, discover why 75% of elementary students love school but only 25% of 10th graders do—and what we can do about it. Dr. Rebecca Winthrop from the Brookings Institution joins me to unpack the hidden disengagement crisis affecting teens everywhere, including straight-A students who appear perfect on paper.

In this episode, Rebecca reveals the four critical modes of student engagement: Passenger Mode (physically present but mentally checked out), Achiever Mode (chasing perfection instead of learning), Resistor Mode (disruptive but showing hidden agency), and Explorer Mode (where curiosity meets drive). Learn why caregivers have equal power to teachers in motivating students and discover practical strategies you can use immediately.

Key Takeaways:
• Why disengagement nosedives in middle school and what's really behind it
• How to identify which engagement mode your child or student is in
• The surprising dark side of being a straight-A student
• Why taking away extracurriculars when grades slip backfires
• Specific questions to ask that spark deeper conversations
• How to break the procrastination-nagging cycle
• Why "failure therapy" matters more than perfect grades

About Dr. Rebecca Winthrop:
Director of the Center for Universal Education at Brookings and adjunct professor at Georgetown University. Co-author of The Disengaged Teen: Helping Kids Learn Better, Feel Better, and Live Better with Jenny Anderson.

Resources Mentioned:
• The Disengaged Teen by Rebecca Winthrop and Jenny Anderson
• Winthrop's World of Education (LinkedIn newsletter)
• Center for Universal Education at Brookings
• Mode Assessment Cheat Sheets (available in the book)

Perfect For:
Teachers, education coaches, school administrators, caregivers, homeschoolers, teacher mentors, instructional leaders, school counselors, and anyone invested in helping students thrive

Chapters:
0:00 Introduction: The Disengagement Crisis
1:00 Meet Dr. Rebecca Winthrop
3:00 The Heartbreaking Statistics
6:00 Why Kids Stop Loving School
9:00 The Four Modes of Engagement Explained
12:00 Passenger Mode: Coasting Through School
13:00 Achiever Mode: The Dark Side of Perfection
16:00 Resistor Mode: Hidden Agency
18:00 Explorer Mode: Where Curiosity Meets Drive
21:00 The Failure Therapy Story
25:00 Breaking the Procrastination-Nagging Loop
28:00 Deep vs. Broad Conversations
30:00 Technology as a Disengagement Enabler
33:00 Global Perspective on Disengagement
36:00 Rapid Fire Questions
38:00 Call to Action & Closing Thoughts

Join our community of educators committed to cultivating student success, inspired teaching, and creating inclusive classrooms with a pro-kid mindset focused on the whole child. 

📧 Connect: schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com
🎵 Music: Benjamin Wahl

#TheDisengagedTeen #RebeccaWinthrop #JennyAnderson #Schoolutions #SchoolutionsTeachingStrategies #StudentEngagement #ClassroomManagement #TeacherTips #ParentingTeens #EducationStrategies #StudentMotivation #DisengagedTeens #TeacherCoaching

When coaches, teachers, administrators, and families work hand in hand, it fosters a school atmosphere where everyone is inspired and every student is fully engaged in their learning journey.

Transcript

Olivia: [00:00:00] Hi there everyone. Welcome back to the show. Today we're diving into something that honestly broke my heart when I first learned about it, and if you have kids, especially teenagers, I think it's going to hit you hard too. Here's the statistic, 75% of elementary school kids love school. They're excited, curious, can't wait to learn, but by 10th grade that number drops to just 25%. We're doing something to that natural spark, that love of learning that every kid is born with, and here's what really got me this disengagement crisis isn't always visible. It's not just the kids skipping class or acting out. It's hiding behind straight A's. It's the student who looks perfect on paper, but is actually coasting, bored, checking out.

Or the [00:01:00] student who's so terrified of getting a B that they've stopped taking any intellectual risks. My guest today is Dr. Rebecca Winthrop. She's the director of the Center for Universal Education at Brookings, and she's just co-authored this incredible book called The Disengaged Teen. And with her colleague Jenny Anderson, she breaks down something that completely changed how I think about my own children and the children that I get to serve: the four modes of engagement. Passenger mode where kids are physically present but mentally checked out achiever mode - and this one surprised me, where kids are chasing perfection instead of learning, and they're actually more fragile than they appear. Resistor mode - some refer to as problem children who actually have something the achievers often lack – agency. And explorer mode where [00:02:00] curiosity meets drive and kids become unstoppable. 

And here's the best part, Rebecca says, caregivers have equal power to teachers in motivating and engaging kids. We're not helpless here. There are specific strategies we can use, conversations we can have questions we can ask. So if you've been feeling like something's off with your teen's relationship to school, if you're exhausted from the homework battles or if you're worried that your straight-A student is actually more fragile than they appear this conversation is for you. Let's jump right in.

This is Schoolutions Teaching Strategies, the podcast that extends education beyond the classroom. A show that isn't just theory, but practical try-it-tomorrow approaches for educators and caregivers to ensure every [00:03:00] student finds their spark and receives the support they need to thrive. 

I am Olivia Wahl, and I am honored to welcome Rebecca Winthrop to the podcast today. Let me tell you a little bit about Rebecca. Rebecca Winthrop is a leading global authority on education. She is the director of the Center for Universal Education at Brookings and an adjunct professor at Georgetown University. Rebecca's work is centered on developing and advocating for evidence-based strategies that bring families, educators, policymakers, and companies together to help children maximize their potential. 

Rebecca, I've told you before we jumped on, I have been carrying your book around with me. It's co-authored with Jenny Anderson and I have it right here. 

Rebecca: Alright! Thank you, Olivia!

Olivia: Yeah! Our conversation, uh, will focus on this book, it's called The Disengaged Teen: Helping Kids [00:04:00] Learn Better, Feel Better, and Live Better. Um, I, I am in disbelief that I have the gift of being in conversation with you today, Rebecca, and I just think that listeners will gain so much from your wisdom. So thank you for taking the time. 

Rebecca: It’s a total pleasure to be here.

Olivia: I ask us usually to kick off with research and you are steeped with research, um, that guides the conversation and topic we're going to be discussing today. So will you start us off with that? 

Rebecca: Sure. So this book that my co-author and I, uh, wrote was a result of multiple years of research, probably about three, largely in the US but a little bit in the UK too, looking at the question of why don't kids like school? What's going on? And really we got to the realization that, you know, parents who were struggling to bring their kids to school, and teachers who were frustrated with chronic absenteeism, parents who were [00:05:00] struggling to get their kids to focus and do their homework and bring their grades up, and teachers who are tearing their hair out around NAEP scores and parents and teachers who worry about kids' emotional wellbeing have at least one common underlying cause, which is student motivation and engagement.

Olivia: Yes. 

Rebecca: Because student motivation and engagement feeds all three of those things, and so we really took a deep dive in and I'm not sure exactly where you want me to start, 'cause uh, I have reams, as you say, of data and information. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Rebecca: But we took a deep dive in on how important student engagement is. 

Olivia: So I'll actually, I'll have you start with the, uh, a statistic that was upsetting um, but I, I, you've deemed this a disengagement crisis. And so a stat you offer is 75% of children in elementary seem to love school, enjoy school, but by the time they're in 10th grade, I think you said that number is only 25%. So why? Why is that? [00:06:00] 

Rebecca: So this is the most heartbreaking chart and statistic in our book. We have lots of data. 

Olivia: Yes you do. 

Rebecca: Because you know, you've raised two kids. You work in education. I have two kids work in education. Jenny and I also have both two kids. And we know that kids come out of the womb excited to learn. They love learning. They are learning machines and curious and enthusiastic, and we do something to that spirit and spark. And to me that's why that sort of nose dive of loving school is so sad and you really see it in the data when they move to middle school. 

So disengagement really starts going off a cliff kind of third grade, it starts going down, but the minute they move to middle school, it really takes a nosedive and kind of sort of does a pretty much a straight on nose dive um, ever since then. And part of what's going on is relevance. Kids [00:07:00] just don't see the point and. As a parent, I can commiserate when you say, why do I care? Do your homework. You have to get school. It's a gateway to further opportunity. But more than that, you're learning things that are important and relevant. You should know what the Constitution is. You should know the three branches of government. You should know how to write a thesis statement, right? These are all important things.

And somehow kids are really missing the connection to why. Why what they're learning is important. And we found that a ton of kids have, for a long time been disengaged actually, and have been coasting through school. But that today, the cost of disengagement and coasting through school and doing the bare minimum is really severe on kids because when you go out into the world, employers in particular, as well as higher education institutions [00:08:00] are expecting creative, self-directed, highly empathetic, collaborative problem solvers. And you can't sort of coast your way through your education. 

Olivia: No. 

Rebecca: And did all of these really sophisticated higher order skills, whereas 50 years ago you were, you know, employees were looking for literacy and strong literacy and numeracy skills. So, the world has shifted and. Kids feel it and we need to connect the dots better.

Olivia: Well, you give us a tool. You and Jenny give us a tool to do just that. And as a parent, as a caregiver, I found the four modes of engagement extraordinarily helpful because. I think I actually saw each of our boys…

Rebecca: mm-hmm. I

Olivia: …in, in different places, depending on their age, depending on the interest, the curiosity, the, the topic itself. But I would love for you to outline those four modes because I feel like that is [00:09:00] an access point. I, I think often of, we only have control of our sphere of influence. 

Rebecca: Mm-hmm. 

Olivia: This is something we can absolutely have control over and be able to identify and support our kids. So can you outline those for listeners?

Rebecca: Absolutely. I'll outline the four modes of engagement. 

Olivia: Thank you. 

Rebecca: But I wanna underline something you just said 'cause it's spot on and exactly right. One of the things we were super surprised, uh, about was the research showed that parents, caregivers, family members - so parents have equal power in motivating and engaging your kids alongside teachers and peers.

Olivia: Yes! 

Rebecca: You know, parents do not have equal power in trying to help their kids or skillset, I would say, in, you know, figuring out calculus or algebra. Right? The teachers are really good at that. But in motivation and student engagement, parents play a huge role, really a huge role, including in adolescence we parents, we both have, um, [00:10:00] teen boys think that, oh no, they're teenagers, they're, you know, are, we have less influence, not so. So, we do have a, an a really big role and part of why we came up with these four modes was so we could help parents and teachers see in student motivation and engagement better. 

Olivia: Yes. 

Rebecca: Because it's, we found it wasn't actually as clear cut as, oh, my kid is engaged, my kid is disengaged, my student is engaged, my student is disengaged. It wasn't an off/on, it was much more subtle than that. And a lot of disengagement is a little bit invisible. So that's why we came up with the four modes and they are passenger mode, achiever mode, resistor mode, explorer mode.

We put them in that order very purposely because originally we had to organize them as seemingly, you know, you know, worst to best resistor, passenger, achiever, right? [00:11:00] However we found that is actually not what the data showed us. So the data showed us that you have kids in passenger mode who are really checked out, they are physically present, have dropped out of learning. They might love going to school to see their friends. They might even have straight A's. This is really tricky for parents, teachers. These are the kids who are coasting, doing the bare minimum, and they might get straight A's because they are just, they literally are bored. We had so many kids tell us, oh, I spent the day online shopping because…

Olivia: That's so bad...

Rebecca: …my, the teacher was reviewing the math homework and I got them all right, and I totally get it. My friends were struggling, so I, I get she needs to review it. So that's passenger mode. Achiever mode is really tricky. Everyone thinks this is the best and it is good. Achiever mode are the kids who are trying to get a gold [00:12:00] star on everything put in front of them. And in many ways it's positive. They can be in happy achiever mode. They're getting, uh, lots of organizational skills. They're highly ambitious. They're striving for excellence. They're goal-oriented. They're working hard. And they're getting lots of good feedback. Parents love them, teachers love them. And the problem is we found that there's a dark underbelly to achiever mode where kids are sort of not striving for excellence anymore, but striving for perfection.

Olivia: It’s scary…

Rebecca: And they get, really worried if they get a B or they don't, they're not the captain of the football team or they're not, you know, in the finals of the chess club or whatever it is. And they are very fragile learners actually. And so they self, um, monitor and stop taking risks. So many students told us, [00:13:00] well, I got this essay prompt back in English and I really disagree with the question. I wanna write this, this is the answer I wanna write, but the teacher won't give me an A, I'm pretty sure, so I'm not gonna write that essay. So that's achiever mode. They're focused on the outcome, less the process. 

Olivia: Okay. 

Rebecca: And they seem like they have everything that kids in resistor mode don't have. But they, kids in resistor mode have something that achiever mode kids actually are missing often. 

Olivia: I love this. Yes. 

Rebecca: So resister remote kids is what you expect. They're the, what we classically think is the disengaged kid, and I would say in quotes, I'm doing this for anyone listening and not watching quotes, what society calls the “problem children.” They're disruptive, they're avoiding, they're the class clowns. They're taking long bathroom breaks. They're not doing their homework, they're skipping flip test, right? It'd like be causing problems in [00:14:00] the school, and then they, there might be serious, you know, other serious problems or they're chronically absent, right? These are kids that, it's very hard for families and schools to deal with these kids, but they have a lot of gumption. They have a lot of, chutzpah. They are actually expressing in often very inappropriate ways. Their agency. 

Olivia: Yes. 

Rebecca: And saying, this isn't working for me. Through their behavior, through their words and actions. Their agencies are pointed away from school and away from learning. 

Olivia: Right. Yeah. 

Rebecca: But they can switch pretty quickly to explorer mode, which is the fourth, uh, mode of engagement that kids show up in. Explorer mode is where we want kids to spend a lot of time, necessarily all their time. This is where their curiosity meets their drive. They really become unstoppable and lots of [00:15:00] studies, 20 years of randomized control-controlled trials. So really high-quality studies with comparison groups have shown that when kids get an opportunity to be in explorer mode, they are the best students.

Rebecca: So explorer mode doesn't sacrifice academic achievement, but they are the ones who, if they get that essay prompt and they kind of disagree with the question and they wanna pursue it, 

Olivia: They'll do what they want. 

Rebecca: They'll go to the teacher and they'll be like, Hey, I disagree with this question. I wanna take this angle. I hope that's okay. You know, can we…and like, and teachers love kids in explorer mode 'cause they see them being very. Proactive. 

Olivia: Right. 

Rebecca: So kids in explorer mode are the ones that have agency pointed towards their learning. 

Olivia: Mm-hmm. I'm listening to you and we, I shared with you, we just dropped our oldest son off at college, and the school did such a gorgeous job of orientation for families, and they put on a whole [00:16:00] series of skits. We're all sitting in this big auditorium..

Rebecca: I love it! Skits are so smart…

Olivia: And it was, it was really, it was really good. And so one of the skits involved a lot of little examples of modes and it was a mental health - umbrella under mental health. And there was an achiever, um, amongst the group and she couldn't understand that in, there were actually two achievers, and this was the fascinating thing that I'm thinking about when you're talking.

One of them, they both had pointy grades, uh, when they were in high school, very pointy, curved grades, not so much. And, um, they, one of them had to spend her entire beginning of university focused on grades. No fun, no outside, no balance of life. The other student also received pointy grades in high school and coasted almost as achiever slash passenger mode.

Rebecca: Yeah. It was more passenger.

Olivia: More passenger, Right. And so he gets to college [00:17:00] and he was joining every club. Playing all the intramurals and he started getting curved grades and didn't quite know what the issue was. It always had gone so well.

Rebecca: I don’t need to work hard…

Olivia: I don't know. Yeah, right. Yeah. And so that example of achiever who was grumbling by not being able to get perfection and the passenger of like, wait, what is going on here? These modes - if we can identify them with our children now before they leave the nest, before they go. 

Rebecca: Mm-hmm. 

Olivia: There are ripple effects that we can start honing.

Rebecca: Absolutely.

Olivia: And that's why I had a whole new level of appreciation for you and Jenny and your book, your work, because I'm seeing it all. This is life-long. Right?  

Rebecca: It's true.

Olivia: Right?

Rebecca: It’s true. I love those two skit examples because I'm thinking of two characters in our book, or I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll be short, but the, [00:18:00] the passenger mode kid who wasn't much challenge and was able to kind of not with minimal effort pull off really great As and maybe somebody B+s or something. We often found a lot of boys in that category, interestingly. And I remember one student we talked to. Uh, in eighth grade, a boy, well, we talked to him in 10th grade and he said, in eighth grade, I pretended I didn't know what was going on with school. I was trying to be really cool. Like in middle school. I was like, I don't know what's going on. I don't know when the tests are. I don't know when my homework is. I don't, I'm not sure I'm gonna study. Right.  And he, he was able to get really great grades without doing much. And then he said, and he was a 10th grader and he was like, but, but now I, I really have no idea what's going on with school. Like…

Olivia: That must be so scary.

Rebecca: Like I don't, I don't know, like how to organize my binder. Like like, I don't know, like it's harder now I'm going into…

Olivia: It's not pretending [00:19:00] anymore! So bad. 

Rebecca: So it's not, it's not even, um, well, they leave the nest. Right? Right. It's even as they progress through school because school gets progressively harder. Um, but your story about the the girl who had all, I don't know if it was a girl who had gotten perfect grades. You know, one of our characters in the book Amina, was class valedictorian. Straight A's, got, literally got into every Ivy League she applied to, um, you know, parents of Nigerian immigrants who were really hard-charging and she loved high school. She got so many accolades and she's like, I love being a winner. I love praise. I love feedback, you know. I love being adored and being perfect. It was great. She went to Yale. Two small little things happened that were not insurmountable. She took a class that was difficult and she couldn't get above like a C.

Olivia: Mm-hmm. 

Rebecca: And it, it was really hard. [00:20:00] All of a sudden. It's really hard and there's a lot of smart kids. And then she applied to a social club and got rejected. She didn't get in. She could have gotten a tutor. She could have gone to a prof. She could have gone to office hours, you know? 

Olivia: Right. 

Rebecca: Dropped the class, found another class. She could have gone to another club and found other friends. Right. All very insurmountable. But she had sort of been stuck in this achiever mode approach to learning. For so long it had become an identity. 

Olivia: Yes. 

Rebecca: And so it wasn't just that she was fragile in that moment, she herself was fragile. And so when these things happened, she got, she saw them as rejection and she didn't see them as rejection like I am, oh, these people over here don't want me. I guess maybe I don't fit. Maybe that's not the place for me. She saw it. 

Olivia: No, it's at her core. 

Rebecca: She saw it as who I am, I am not liked. I am unsuccessful. I am no longer a winner in the chief, like an existential crisis. Who am I if I'm not great externally [00:21:00] getting validation and she almost dropped out of college. Luckily, she got coached by her RA to take a gap year, which helped enormously. But she did tell us I wish I'd had failure therapy in high school. Failure therapy when that's like, what? What failure therapy? I don't even know what you're talking about. I mean, and she was like, no, no. I wish I'd had a chance to really fail and feel what it was like and then be able to pick myself up and then I would be more prepared for basically the big bad world where people can’t protect you.

Olivia: Uh, so that is a really important thing you just said because as parents, as caregivers, as families, we have to allow space for our children to fail. And it feels horrible. 

Rebecca: Yeah. 

Olivia: It feels awful. And so the other layer I love about the book is a resource. It is so full of [00:22:00] strategies for caregivers to help their children shift from. Passenger from achiever to more of that explorer, and I'll say more of the resistor. I am a huge, uh, proponent of not being compliant of asking lots of questions, but coaching students how to do it in a way so you're heard instead of disciplined, uh, for your questioning. I think we need a lot more pushback and questioning in the world today. So what would you say, how could we help a caregiver, um, look at moving that their child from passenger to resistor? 

Rebecca: Mm-hmm. 

Olivia: What would you recommend? 

Rebecca: So we do have exactly as you said, Olivia, in the book. The, the second half of the book is a toolkit of strategies. For family, uh, for caregivers, for parents, and for educators. And there are some that cut across all kids at all times. But there, there are things you have [00:23:00] to do differently if your kid is really kind of stuck in passenger mode or stuck in achiever mode even, or stuck in resistor mode and you wanna sort of help get them unstuck so they can spend more time in explorer mode.

So passenger mode, commonly what we see happening is multiple things, but one thing that seems to happen a lot with the kids who are coasting is they procrastinate and parents talk about being stuck in this procrastination nagging loop from hell where your kid is procrastinating, you're nagging, they procrastinate more, you nag more, and it's just this sort of unhappy cycle. 

Olivia: Doesn't sound fun...yeah.

Rebecca: I used to do this with my own son. Who, uh, was a adolescent, uh, in, you know, starting probably, I was probably doing it, starting in about eighth, ninth grade, [00:24:00] where he would come home and I’d say, do you have any homework? And he would say, yes. Okay, say, what is it? Go do your homework. Then he would take a break and he would, you know, whatever, eat some food and futz about, and then dinnertime came.

Did you do your homework? You didn't do your homework yet? And then, you know, go do your homework. And then, you know, it's time to go to bed and he's like, oh, I think I should do my homework. And he whips it out and it's like three hours of homework and he doesn't, and, and he, anyway, the whole thing. So nagging actually shuts down the problem-solving part of children's brains. So the more we nag, the more they're ability to solve problems and plan and do the thing we're nagging about….

Olivia: Wow. I'm taking this in. Okay… 

Rebecca: So, one thing you can do, and it's, I tried a bunch of the, uh, tools in the toolkit on my own poor children is to say, Hey, how much homework do you have? Or Do you have homework. Yeah. Do you [00:25:00] know how long it'll take you? And what is your plan to get it done? Now some kids – my son being one of them - needed some scaffolding, handholding, a little bit of nudging and how to even make a plan. Just the basics. A plan consists of what do you have to do, how long will it take you, and when are you going to do it? 

Olivia: Ah, that's fantastic. 

Rebecca: Those three things. That's what a plan consists of. So think through those three things and make sure they know how to make their plan, have them have their plan, and if they don't execute their plan, send them to bed on time anyways. 

Olivia: Mm. 

Rebecca: And you know, don't let them bomb the SAT or fail out of chemistry or, you know, not pass their final exams or anything. But, you know, there's a lot of days in the school year where you can help them learn…

Olivia: Bounce back.

Rebecca: …to master their independent study skills and be a little bit in charge of their own, um, responsibilities. And [00:26:00] we're just really firm on bedtimes in my house 'cause I know how much sleep is important. And you know what? When they don't do well, the next day they might be like, oh, I guess I should have started my plan a little sooner.

Olivia: Yeah. There has to be natural consequences. And, uh, another fascinating, um, piece you're bringing up in my mind is you hear often when students leave and graduate high school that the caregiver role shifts from being, um you know, there all the time, uh, to that consultant role or consultancy. 

Rebecca: Mm-hmm. 

Olivia: And the, the stance you just described, it feels more of a consultancy like…

Rebecca: That's right. 

Olivia: …I'm here to support you, but mm-hmm. You know, here, here are some ways if you need the coaching and it, it really does offer them agency and autonomy. I appreciate that. Um, so there's one group of questions. Those are really good questions. And then I'm thinking too, I love how you speak to going deeply versus broad. [00:27:00] when we're speaking to our teens, um, I often feel like they're so used to the scrolling or the YouTube shorts that even engaging in a conversation. 

Rebecca: Yes. 

Olivia: Uh, my two best times of day are going on walks and driving when we're in the car. To really, not for holding them hostage with me, but more for just like having, being in the moment without distraction. What other recommendations do you have?

Rebecca: You bring up something that's really important that we haven't touched on, which is technology, because you know, when you give kids in school in particular, but also outside of school, super engaging, curiosity provoking, exciting learning experiences. They are not usually turning to their phones. 

Olivia: They're not. 

Rebecca: They really aren't. You know this as a educator, uh, but when they're bored, they don't see the relevance. They're already know the answers to the math set and there's got 25 minutes ahead of them. 

Olivia: Yeah…

Rebecca: The [00:28:00] phone is a distraction machine and they turn to technology just to escape boredom. And it could actually even be, they don't even need the phones. They could have their, um, Chromebooks and get, you know, Minecraft unblocked or any video game unblocked you can access, um, in school. So technology is a disengagement enabler in many ways when they're not engaged. 

And so we are actually pretty careful and we have a whole chapter in the book about ending the tech wars, but certainly we are careful in my house about technology where, you know, things get locked down at night, no tech in the, during dinner, um, only allowing certain amount of hours, and then we just have hours, not even, but like minutes, um, and increases as they get older. But we just have a lot of conversations around, around why and the content, et cetera.

Like, I, I wouldn't let you wander around in the middle of a really [00:29:00] dangerous neighborhood at 2:00 AM I won't let you, you know - in, you know, our city. I won't let you do that online. Um, so I think that's important for parents to keep in mind and as much as you can, as you said, scaffold a, when we say a deep conversation, we didn't really mean, uh, existentially deep, or yes, they're spiritually deep or, you know, profound in any ways.

What we meant was try to resist the urge of cross-examining them about every class when they come home, which was, how was your math test? How did English go? Did you turn your social studies on time? Did um….which are sort of the superficial headlines, and then maybe just pick one or two things that they did at school and talk about it for a while.

Olivia: Yeah. 

Rebecca: So for example, um, you know, Hey, how, how was science class and what if they say [00:30:00] it was boring? And say, well, you know, what did you do in science class? Ask about the content. Less about their performance. 

Olivia: Mm-hmm. 

Rebecca: Well, what if they, and then what if they say nothing? I did nothing. Oh, really? Oh. How do you think the teacher could have taught it better if you really did nothing? Um, there's a whole series of questions that are based on Harvard's, um, sort of Visible Learning Methods that parents can use. Or you could say, you know, what was the most interesting thing? Or you could, if they say, oh, we did, I dunno, I'm making it up. Whatever. Photosynthesis. Oh, I forgot about photosynthesis. What? That's plants. Right? Could what? What? Can you teach it to me? I can't remember. You might not wanna say teach to me, but like, what is that? I don't remember. Kids love being smarter than their parents. I authentically employ this, the older my boys get because I don't remember. Look what I learned. 

Olivia: It's so true! It is! [00:31:00] 

Rebecca: Like, oh, I don't remember that. What is that? And then blah, blah, blah. And so that's going deep. Like really just getting interested in what they're learning 

Olivia: And what they're interested in, Rebecca.  

Rebecca: Yeah. 

Olivia: You know, I'll say, and I, I don't know if you can empathize with this, but my younger son really loves Magic, the Gathering as a game.

Rebecca: Okay. 

Olivia: And, okay. So I've really tried, I've tried so hard to learn and to understand. He's so fast and I watch him or listen to him playing with his friends. I've, I'm still trying. I am not giving up, but I will say. Get interested in what they're interested in. 

Rebecca: Yeah. 

Olivia: If you're a teacher, if you're a caregiver, it's not really about them shifting to what your passion is. You can turn kids on to your passion. I'm not saying that, but I truly believe like if you're not eliciting from your students or your children what they actually care about, you're missing a golden opportunity. 

Rebecca: Absolutely. 

Olivia: And that's, right. I love, I love the [00:32:00] strategies you offer, but I also am fascinated to ask you. You have a global perspective. So when we're thinking about the American disengagement crisis, what does, how do we compare to other countries that you've studied? 

Rebecca: Sadly, the disengagement crisis seems to be around the world. Um, it's not ex, it's not as, uh, it's not at the same level necessarily in each country because actually education systems sort of, although they look very similar in their core elements are, can be very different. Like in in, in Nordic countries, kids have a lot of freedom, a lot of agency, they go outside every single day, even if it's below whatever, zero degrees. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Rebecca: So they have, um, different experiences actually a little more ownership over their learning. A little more freedom. Um. [00:33:00] So it, it's not exactly the same everywhere, but, but we do notice that the competitive nature of schooling, and I think the advent of social media and cell phones have come in and sort of intermingled with this really does zap kids love of learning. There's a study which is also very sad in my mind.

Which looks at 70 countries in the OECD. So these are sort of high middle income countries around the world, and there's a range of countries. There are some countries that don't have a very big GDP in some countries with a huge GDP, like the United States. So that means wealth countries level of wealth, their economy, and as countries get richer and richer, have more larger economies, when you ask adults about their life satisfaction, their life satisfaction goes higher and higher the more money a country has, which makes sense because you get healthcare and nice [00:34:00] roads and you have to worry less about, you know, food and survival, et cetera, and you have, you know, a sort of easier time in life.

Rebecca: However, the opposite is true when you ask it of adolescents as you get richer and richer countries, adolescents life satisfaction goes down, down, down. It's literally like the opposite. And the researchers, um, really said, you know, it looks like this is the competitive nature of schooling and the stress of being perfect and not just excellent. And so that is just a terrible thing to do to learning to kids, um, make them sort of competitive widgets in a school machine. It's not what the purpose of school was ever meant to be and it really zaps kids' motivation and engagement and hurts their mental health. 

Olivia: It does. And so I, I want to wrap not only with a call to action, but I love to just get your gut reaction to some questions that I've [00:35:00] curated. Um, so first thing, um, should parents or caregivers care more about grades or engagement? 

Rebecca: Engagement. 

Olivia: Okay. Uh, biggest mistake a caregiver is making with their disengaged teen right now. 

Rebecca: Taking away their interests and extracurriculars and passions, whether it be piano or track, or skateboarding, when their grades slip, they need those interests to keep their curiosity alive and to even stay excited about school.

Olivia: Okay. What's the most overhype trend in education right now? 

Rebecca: Well, I am in the midst of generative AI, and I think it's a bit overhyped on how it's gonna solve all our education problems. I think there's a fair bit of downsides there's benefits, but there's a fair bit of downsides. 

Olivia: All right. What's the most under-hyped trend?

Rebecca: Most under hyped trend? Physical movement, recess, outdoor time. Get out. Move around. We're way too sedentary. I think we're gonna find and like, [00:36:00] you know, 10 years that we're gonna look back on this long period and say, oh my gosh, I can't believe we made kids sit so long enough to let them move. It's so terrible for their learning and their health.

Olivia: I agree. Uh, what if you, well, you are a parent of a teen. Um, I have two teens. And so what keeps you up at night? 

Rebecca: The thing that keeps me up at night most is making sure my kids are mentally and emotionally healthy because it's so hard to tackle mental health problems, broken bones I can handle. Mental health is a whole nother level, and my heart goes out to any parent dealing with it.

Olivia: Yeah. And the older our kids get, the harder it is, I think. 

Rebecca: Yeah. 

Olivia: Um, all right. Call to action. I, the call to action I'm going to put out there is, let's immediately. Uh, get the book and think about the modes, that immediate assessment. Um, what is your tip for caregivers to identify the mode that their owned child is within or educators?

Rebecca: Well, the most straightforward way is to go into our book and we [00:37:00] have a cheat sheet for each mode. Signs your kids are in passenger mode, achiever mode, explorer mode, resistor mode. So take a look at that and that will help. 

Olivia: It will. And so first step, go to the cheat sheet. Um, I think that would be my recommendation 'cause it's extremely helpful. And then let's talk bigger picture as a call to action. If we solved this disengagement crisis, what would the impact be in your mind on society? 

Rebecca: I think it would be huge because a, uh, you know, it's not the only thing fueling, uh, teenage adolescent mental health crisis, but it's really harming it. So, kids will be more motivated, engaged, more pro-social, happier, and then they can attend and learn more. Um, and then they can connect with others better, and then they can become problem solvers and real constructive citizens, which is what we need in the world at the moment. It 

Olivia: It sure is. And you know, I'll end on that note because. I have followed you and your work for a very [00:38:00] long time. I love Winthrop's World and I…

Rebecca: My LinkedIn newsletter. Yes, thank you. 

Olivia: Yes, I do. Huge shout out. Shout out. Um, and, and you, even though, I mean you've identified this crisis. You offer this very, very tangible way with Jenny to take control back and say like, kids, we've got you and we can support you and help you to not be as disengaged. But it's also that we trust that they've got it. Um, and we are there alongside. So I just…

Rebecca: Absolutely. 

Olivia: I am so grateful. Thank you for taking the time to have this conversation and for writing this book. It's. Just amazing. 

Rebecca: Thank you, Olivia. Total pleasure. 

Olivia: Take care. 

Rebecca: Bye-bye.

Olivia: Schoolutions Teaching Strategies is created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Thank you to my older son Benjamin, who created the music playing in the background. You can [00:39:00] follow and listen to Schoolutions wherever you get your podcasts or subscribe to never miss an episode and watch on YouTube. 

Thank you to my guest, Dr. Rebecca Winthrop, for sharing how we can reengage our disengaged teens. And here's my invitation. Go to Rebecca and Jenny's book The Disengaged Teen, and check out the Mode cheat sheets. Identify which mode your children or your students are currently in: passenger, achiever, resistor or explorer. This simple assessment is the first step to understanding what's really going on and how to help. 

Join the movement to solve the disengagement crisis. When kids are truly engaged, they're not just better students, they're happier, they're mentally healthier, more pro-social, and they become the constructive problem solvers our world desperately needs. This isn't just about grades. It's about raising resilient, [00:40:00] curious humans who can thrive in an uncertain world.

Make sure to send me an email at schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com and let me know what resonated and your next steps after listening. Tune in every Monday for the best research-backed coaching and teaching strategies you can apply right away to better the lives of the children in your care. And stay tuned for my bonus episodes every Friday where I'll reflect and share connections to what I learned from the guest that week. See you then.