Launching Students into High-Level Work They Care About

In this S5E15 Schoolutions Teaching Strategies conversation, join me with teacher and author Sarah M. Zerwin as she shares strategies from her book Step Aside: Strategies for Student-Driven Learning with Secondary Readers and Writers (Illustrated by Jane Zerwin).

🚗 The Driving Course Metaphor: Student-driven learning isn't about abandoning students—it's like teaching someone to drive. You don't toss them the keys; you sit beside them, teach the rules, create a safe course, and strategically step back while staying present.

📝 The Power of the Humble Post-it Note: Discover how Original Thought Annotations (OTAs) using simple sticky notes can revolutionize student engagement, classroom belonging, and student motivation. Students write "I noticed... I think..." and build complex thinking from small observations.

🎯 The Three Step Meaning Making Process:
1️⃣Start Small (notice details through OTAs)
2️⃣Seek Connections (through rambling writing and discussion)
3️⃣Take Action (apply thinking to authentic work)

Resources:

• Pointless by Sarah Zerwin
• The Courage to Teach by Parker Palmer
• Reading With Presence by Marilyn Pryle
• A Novel Approach by Kate Roberts
• The Anti-Racist Writing Workshop by Felicia Rose Chavez
• The Quickwrite Handbook by Linda Rief

CHAPTERS
0:00 Introduction: Working Harder Than Your Students? 

1:00 Meet Sarah Zerwin and Step Aside

3:00 Parker Palmer & The Third Thing 

5:00 The Driving Course Metaphor 

8:00 Phantom Policies We Don't Need 

12:00 Collaborating with Jane 

15:00 The Humble Post-it Note Revolution 

17:00 Original Thought Annotations (OTAs) 

20:00 Building Thinking from Small Observations 

23:00 The 3-Step Meaning-Making Process 

26:00 Start Small: What Students Notice 

28:00 Seek Connections: Rambling & Discussion 

32:00 Take Action: Thinking into Learning 

34:00 Evolution from Pointless 

36:00 Learning Progressions 

38:00 Student-Generated Goals Using AI 

42:00 Lightning Round

44:00 Misconceptions About Student-Driven Learning 

46:00 Where Can You Step Aside? 

48:00 Final Invitation 

When coaches, teachers, administrators, and families work hand in hand, it fosters a school atmosphere where everyone is inspired and every student is fully engaged in their learning journey.

Transcript

Olivia: [00:00:00] You know that moment when you realize you're working harder than your students, like you're the one doing all the thinking, all the planning, all the heavy lifting, and your students are just along for the ride. That's where Sarah Zerwin meets us in today's conversation. Sarah is a teacher, a writer and consultant whose newest book, Step Aside: Strategies for Student-Driven Learning with Secondary Readers and Writers. challenges us to rethink what it means to put students in the driver's seat. 

And here's the thing, student-driven learning doesn't mean chaos. It doesn't mean you're out in the hallway while the kids do whatever they want. In fact, Sarah argues that you need to know your content and your students even better to pull this off. 

Think about it like teaching someone to drive. You don't just toss them the keys and wave goodbye. You sit beside them. You set up a safe course. You teach them the rules of the road, you watch them [00:01:00] practice, and gradually strategically, you step back, but you're still there just in different ways. 

In this conversation, Sarah walks us through what it looks like in the classroom. We talk about phantom policies, those teaching traditions we follow, even though they're not actually required. We dig into her Three Step Meaning Making Process that helps students build their own thinking. We explore how the humble post-it note can be a game changer for student engagement, and we tackle the big question of assessment.

How do we evaluate student learning without crushing their agency? If you've ever wondered where you can step aside to give students more ownership, or if you're skeptical that student-driven learning can actually work with your curriculum demands - this episode is for you. Now, let's get to the conversation.[00:02:00] 

This is Schoolutions Teaching Strategies, the podcast that extends education beyond the classroom. A show that isn't just theory, but practical try-it-tomorrow approaches for educators and caregivers to ensure every student finds their spark and receives the support they need to thrive. 

I am Olivia Wahl, and I'm so happy to have Sarah Zerwin back on the podcast today. Let me tell you a little bit about Sarah. Sarah Zerwin is a teacher, a writer, and a consultant. Her ultimate goal is building classroom spaces where readers and writers can thrive, welcomed exactly as they are doing work that matters to them. Our conversation today will focus on Sarah's most recent book. It's amazing. I have it right here. Step Aside: Strategies for Student-Driven Learning with Secondary Readers and Writers. [00:03:00] Sarah, welcome back. I'm so happy to be in conversation today. 

Sarah: Hi, Olivia. Thank you. It's good to be here again with you. 

Olivia: I like to start every conversation by having you frame it. Let us know a researcher or a nugget of research that speaks to all that this book is about.

Sarah: So, I mean, there's a lot of research out there about, um, you know, student agency and engagement and all of that sort of thing. But, um, I actually wanna talk about Parker Palmer here for some reason. 

Olivia: I love Parker Palmer. Yeah. 

Sarah: And, you know, and The Courage to Teach and, um, which is a book that was gifted to me, uh, years and years ago, and then gifted to me again recently by a good friend and I was reading that book while I was working on this one. Like one of my strategies as a writer is to, for each writing session, to dig into a book about teaching before I start writing and to read as far as I need to go, to be like, [00:04:00] so my brain is kind of popping. So it's Parker Palmer while I was working on this and so much about that um, just about, you know, the, the inner life of a teacher and, um, the importance of having this third, this other thing, this like this beautiful content thing that you and your students are looking at and working on together. 

And the reason I think that's related to this is that to this book is because I think that people think that, um, when you talk about student-driven learning, that it means the teacher is doing nothing and that the teacher is out in the hall and the kids are all by themselves in the room, and it's complete total chaos.

But that's not true. Like you have to craft this. This path for your kids towards that third, that thing, you know, there's the kid that you, and the third thing, right? You have to craft a course towards that third thing for the kids that they can then kind of drive and explore on their own. Um, but you have to keep that third thing like so present and there. Yeah. You're not giving that up by doing student driven learning. In fact, you have [00:05:00] to know it even better, I think. 

Olivia: I think the other thing that I shared with you before we jumped on to record. I'm using this book because it is just a treasure trove of strategies and it is so incredibly helpful. So I am leaning on this with work with middle and high school teachers, but the other layer is it helps the teacher feel like they actually know where they're going too.

So it's not just that third thing being where the kids are going. You are, you have this clarity by doing this work, and then you can trust that students will rise to the occasion because you know exactly where they're going and you feel comfy that, that you can scaffold. 

Sarah: Yes. 

Olivia: This book also something that I was captivated by is the art. Uh, your daughter Jane is incredible, and right out of the gate there's this visual [00:06:00] of a driving course. And you created this thread that I was able to hold onto through the whole book around driving course analogy. I'd love for you to start off, speak a bit to that and then take us from that to the idea of phantom policy, because that was fascinating.

Sarah: Okay. Yeah. And, uh, the driving course metaphor, I mean, I tell the story in the book about, I remember so vividly being. 15 years old, a sophomore in high school, taking driver's ed and, um, getting one day to get into a school bus and go over to the driving course that we had, um, that doesn't exist anymore.

Just this enclosed parking lot, you know, with cones and stuff where we got to, my friend Kathy and I got to sit in a little family four door and drive around. It was so fun. And, uh, the thing is that I, I think that student-driven learning, um. The metaphor of, I'm glad to hear you say that it was a [00:07:00] metaphor that worked for you throughout the whole book.

'Cause I was very worried that it was gonna be a little cheesy or something, I don't know. Or obvious or something too obvious. But it really, like when you teach kids to drive, you don't just give them the car keys and a credit card and send them out the door, right? You have to sit next to them in the car and help them understand how to operate the machine.

You have to make sure that they know the rules of the road. You have to teach them what defensive driving means. There's so many skills that they need to have before they can successfully drive off in a car on their own. Right? And so that became such a, a helpful metaphor for me. And the, the diagram that Jane did of the driving course at the beginning puts like all these different locations where teachers could be.

You know, where are you in the driving course with the kids? And I argue that you should be in all the places. 

Olivia: Yes. 

Sarah: Except for one, which is standing in the middle and orchestrating everything and making sure that everything, you know, orbits around you. Like that's what [00:08:00] I'm asking people not to do, But all the other things, like one part is you're over here in the corner doing loop to loops with the kids. Like, yeah, you should have fun with your students. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Sarah: As much as possible. Right. Another one is you're, you're standing there, um, trying to head off collisions between two kids. You should know them well enough that you can think about where those might happen and, and try to head them off. Um, and then another one is you're sitting like right in the car beside the kid. There are times, yeah, you've gotta be literally right next to them and, and giving them really important instructions side-by-side.

Right? And other times when you're like in the car behind them and you're sort of following them and seeing where they go and. And, um, another time, which I think is really important is being on the outside and just watching, like, not even being involved at all, but just observing what's happening. So you set this course up for your kids and then you watch them navigate it and, um, you know, such powerful assessment data can be there.

And to get us to the, the, um, the [00:09:00] phantom policy situation. And this comes from a research article from, you know, a number of years ago. That I, I came across it when I was working in my doctoral dissertation and, and I thought it was such a wonderful metaphor, and the idea is that there's this policy that guides teachers’ decision making that isn't real.

It's just policy that you think you're supposed to be following. 

Olivia: It's great. 

Sarah: An example that the research study gives is that like ninth graders read Romeo and Juliet, like it happens in so many places across the country. That it makes it seem like it's this, you know, inscribed official policy. I think it had to do with the textbook that was very popular when I started teaching that had Romeo and Juliet in it and that textbook in three different states.

Where I had had worked that textbook was, was the textbook and um, or two different states. And so the fan of policy, I've always imagined like a little English [00:10:00] teacher sitting on my shoulder and she looks just like my AP English teacher from high school who was a lovely human, I have to tell you. But, um, there are, you know, things about my, that time in her classroom that really influenced me as a teacher.

And, um, you know, I just imagine this, this little English teacher telling me what I'm supposed to be doing. And, um, even 30 years in, you know, that phantom English teacher is still there. Like, the sense of tradition in our field about what we're supposed to be doing is so, so, so strong. It does drive our decision making.

And so, um, I think it's just important to notice when that's there, you know, like Romeo and Juliet as a ninth grade text is not, maybe it's an official curricular thing somewhere, but in most places it really isn't. Right. And I, I think another place we get tripped up is we get so focused on teaching books rather than teaching skills.

Olivia: Absolutely. 

Sarah: And um, you know, a lot of those books are usually not the things that are inscribed as the curriculum. The skills are. 

Olivia: Yeah. [00:11:00] I wonder too about. Um, just that idea of phantom policy and also the idea of parallel practice. And when, you know, we think we have to do these things, I think a lot of times students feel like they have to comply. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Olivia: When a teacher is asking them to do things and maybe the kids that push back, um, at least they have some agency. We, we may call them problem students, but I always welcome those kids. 

Sarah: Same 

Olivia: Because it, at least they're trying, they're pushing back on something. Um, and versus just like doing and yeah.

Sarah: And they make me clarify what I'm trying to do. Yes. If I have to try to like get that kid to. Get on board or whatever, or to, I just have to show them I've really listened and, and I need to clarify here what I'm trying to accomplish. And if I can't clarify it, there's a problem. 

Olivia: Yeah, exactly. And, and I also wondered too, with your collaboration with Jane, because she [00:12:00] was so involved with the visuals, what did it make you realize? Like, did you ever have to step aside and how did that collaboration work? And then also just thinking of students' creative expression. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Olivia: Because I don't think we always allow kids to express themselves how we want. We may have this product at the end, another phantom policy, and I think we can offer more ways for kids to express themselves.

Sarah: Yeah, I think we definitely can offer them more ways to express themselves and, um I'm doing that. I, I'll get back to Jane in just a minute. Um, I'm doing that with something I'm trying, uh, differently this year, like with my sophomores, it's feeling more writing workshopy than ever. Like right now we're reading Antigoneand we're all doing that.

We're studying it, we're talking about it. They're doing, you know, OTAs, which we'll get to later. You know, they're, they're doing all of that. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Sarah: Um, but we're in a unit on argumentative writing alongside it. And, um, you know, I keep telling the kids [00:13:00] like, I'm collecting the things that they're talking about, and it's not just Antigone. So, um, they'll be able to write an argument about Antigone or something else. Like the standards are just, you know, argumentative writing. So let's, like, what are you really interested in writing an argument about based on all of the things that we have been talking about, um, which is not just Antigone, it's other stuff too.

But, uh, so the story with, with Jane, I, I went to this writing retreat when I was in the early stages of this book, and I drew up some comic panels. Because I really wanted there to be some shorthand in the book. Like if people just open up and look at these comic pages, 

Olivia: So good. 

Sarah: That they, that they would, they would get something that they would be like, oh, that's interesting. I wanna think about that. And so I drew up a really rough version of the, I think it was the very first comic panel that's in here. I brought it home to Jane and my daughter Jane, for people who dunno, her, she's studying art at the University of Colorado. She's, um, in the, a [00:14:00] Bachelor's of Fine Arts program.

She paints and draws and, um, she's also got a little sort of side gig doing some illustrations, starting with, um, illustrating this particular book. But, um, I came home and I showed Jane my, um, my rough drawing of the comic panels and she's like, oh mom, I could do that so much better. So much, so much.

That's what I was hoping you would say, actually. And I was wondering if you might be willing to, um, maybe do some illustrations for me for this book. And I was just amazed at her ability. Like we would have, we would sit down. I would talk through what I wanted a particular illustration to be about, and I would write it all out for her.

And then she would come up with all of the visuals. Um, I came up with the visuals on the very first one because I had done that one, but she came up with these brilliant visuals that I never would have considered myself, never. And, um, it was just really, really fascinating to watch and how good she was at listening [00:15:00] carefully to what I wanted to accomplish.

And I, like, they needed zero revisions for me. I was like, yeah, this is exactly what, yeah, you've caught. I wouldn't have done it this way, but it's exactly what needed to be, to be in there. And so, so I really learned a lot about, you know, I did have to, you know, of course I know her very well and I was able to completely step aside and just let her run with it. Um, and the book is so much better for it. So much better for it. 

Olivia: It's so like I was dying, the backseat driving. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Olivia: It just, it's, it also is, it's there's humor. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Olivia: Because like we have to laugh at ourselves I think as teachers sometimes, like, you know, the expectations for kids, how we like to be in that control center and there's such a difference. Something you said earlier between that control center in the, in the middle of needing to have your finger on everything versus that kid watching. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Olivia: Of stepping back and seeing how all of the parts are working [00:16:00] together. It's really your stance, you know? 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Olivia: Um, and I died when I read about the Humble Post-It in all of the ways, the Humble Post-it can really help kids like gather and track their thinking. So let's talk OTAs. 

Sarah: Okay. 

Olivia: Also known as Original Thought Annotations. Um, and something you said, “These are your words. If anything is odd, inappropriate, confusing, or boring, it's probably important.” I wrote that down. Yeah, I highlighted it. It's hilarious. And kids will remember it.

Sarah: Yeah, totally. 

Olivia: Kids will remember it. Right? 

Sarah: Totally. 

Olivia: So talk to us a little bit more. How did you come up with OTAs and then also like how can the humble Post-It note help kids really track their confusion or what's unexpected? Help us. 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. And that quote, um, I picked up from some research article. I was just looking in the book to see where it was. I can't remember. I mean, I've got the, you know, the authors right here, but I can't remember exactly what the [00:17:00] article was, but I loved that so much and I wrote it down. And, um, in my, my IB Lit class, um, a couple of years ago, I had one kid who was super annoyed about something in, um, and I think they're there.

And so I, I put that on, I photocopied it, you know, writer's notebook size and made the kids tape it down in their notebooks, is like, guys, it's not – when something’s annoying. It's important. You have to pay attention. And so I love that. I just really love it. It has worked really well for kids. Yeah. Um, to help them shift their thinking about literature. I'm like, it's all intentional. 

Olivia: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: It's all intentional. So, um, anyhow, but the OTAs so, um, humble, sticky note. Yes. And you have no idea how many sticky notes my colleagues and I go through in our department. It's kind of hilarious. We have them everywhere. Um, for OTAs and other things too, but, um, so.

Original thought annotation, the original part. Um, I read Marilyn Pryle’s book, um, Reading with Presence, um, and [00:18:00] she really emphasizes kids doing these reading response, like these one page reading response, um, writings that are all their original thinking. And I loved that so much. Like to really like tell the kids, I wanna see your original thinking.

Then I love the sticky note because it's so small. It's, it's a small vessel. It's, it's, it's, you know, it's not overwhelming. Like fill this little tiny three by three inch piece of paper with your ideas. And then, um, I also like them 'cause they're portable. I think that when we're dealing with abstract thinking about things, being able to move things around in a concrete way um, can help kids.

Like they can touch it and they can move it. And so I've used sticky notes for a long time for things like planning out your writing or revising your writing once you've done it. Like do a sticky note for each mean idea and lay it all out in front of you. I mean, it's what I do when I write, when I'm trying to make my way through. Yeah. So I just think they're really, really helpful. And then, um. What I try to emphasize for the kids is like, when you're faced with something [00:19:00] complex, you have to start with the small things that you can make sense of the little tiny things that are jumping out at you for any reason. 

Even if you actually, even if you can't make sense of them, like, I'm noticing this thing and it's, um, you know, here's what I think about it. So on an OTA, it's simply, I noticed and I think, and really nothing else. Definitely like, um, notice a note from Beers and Probst is definitely like in the background of the thinking. I love that whole framework about things that you are noticing, um, and having the kids track that, the small things and then the portability of the OTAs. There's another step that I like to, which was very much inspired by something that you'll see in Kate Robert's book about, um, A Novel Approach, which is brilliant, I think.

Olivia: I do too.

Sarah: But to have the kids move the sticky notes, like pick a few OTAs and move them to somewhere else where they can do some, like a page in the writer notebook where they can do some writing to try to make sense across them and to, to show the kids, like the way that you build thinking about anything is [00:20:00] you, what are you noticing, what are the small things you're noticing?

And then put those all together and see if you can figure out something bigger from there. And I just, I, I use it, um, you know, as a strategy no matter what class I'm teaching, like standard grade level, 10th grade right now, and IB 11. Which loops to IB 12. We loop with the kids. And it's the same strategy in both classes.

It's just delivered a little bit differently with the exact same strategy because no matter what it is, whether it's a, you know, an article about social media to help us think about the, like, the role of the chorus and Antigone and like how we use social media today with my sophomores or, you know, Song of Solomon with my juniors.

Um, it's the same strategy, like what are you noticing and what do you think about it? So, and then I think that, um, to help the kids to keep track of what's, you know, unknown or, or unexpected or confusing, like it's important to maybe focus their eyes a little bit with the [00:21:00] curriculum, whatever it may be.

Um, I do have a, like a, a list of the types of things you could notice about the text. And so, 

Olivia: Yeah, super helpful. 

Sarah: This is, um, was inspired by a list in a book that I, um that I got read years ago, but my colleagues and I have sort of narrowed it down to things like something that's you have an emotional reaction to or something you have a question about, or something that you don't understand or something you notice that is repeating or something you think is important.

And so, um, that's like basic OTAs that always give them that so that they have an idea of the kinds of things they could be noticing. And then you know, with like my IB Lit class, or when I taught AP Lit, I would give them some pieces from their curriculum to help them, uh, focus their thinking a little bit.

I've got my own page of the sort of like literary terms with questions on it that I have them tape down into their writer's notebooks, um, so that they can be trying to tie their OTA noticings to, to, um, you know, the, the [00:22:00] literary language that we're supposed, supposed to be using in the class. But I, you, I also wanna remain open and tell the kids like you don't have to categorize what you're noticing,.

Olivia: Right? 

Sarah: Whatever you're noticing, you're noticing.

Olivia: It’s open.

Sarah: Like, I'm to help you so that you can use those noticings to get towards the curriculum. But just whatever you're noticing, you're noticing. And some kids, it's hard. Like I had one kid last year, um, he was reading a, um, a Batman comic book and he, I think like kids, the reason this is so important is that kids are often not very confident about their own ideas.

We were looking at a page together and I said, point to something on the page that is, you have any kind of a thought about? And he looked and he pointed. And then I was like, okay, good. That's your, I notice, write that down on your sticky note. I was like, so why did you point to that? Why were you thinking about that?

And then he articulated something very tentatively. I was like, yes, yes. Put that on your sticky note. OTA done. Move on to the next thing. And he's like, really? Yeah. Is that easy? I said, [00:23:00] yes!, 

Olivia: Yes. 

Sarah: It’s that easy. And from that humble starting point, big ideas can be built.

Olivia: And it offers access, Sarah, it gives access to kids that their thinking matters. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Olivia: And then that's a perfect segue because your Three Step Meaning Making Process, it is brilliant. It's brilliant in its simplicity, and yet it also, you know, the idea that our thinking grows and compounds upon itself. So. I would love, I need to just give a shout out to charts in the book. The charts are everything.

I love your story, but it's also extremely helpful for me to be able to synthesize learning through a chart. And so you offer the Three Step Meaning Making Process for over all what reading, writing, and talking can look like. But then within each of the chapters that break down, reading, writing, and talking.

There's a separate three [00:24:00] step chart. So that was, as I was going along through the driving course analogy, it was an incredible guide for me to say, okay, here's bigger picture. Oh, this goes just to reading. And then it also connects. So speak to the process for us. Um. And those three steps because I feel like part of the starting small, it really is the OTA, right?

Sarah: Yeah. And I'm so glad to hear that the charts were helpful for you because I, I mean my students, the charts I make for them, it's kind of ridiculous. And the charts I make them make for themselves with so many charts.

Olivia: They're helpful. 

Sarah: Oh, I'm just glad to hear that they're helpful. But yeah, the three step mini making process and I really did want, 'cause I see in my head, I see it so, so clearly, like. If I just keep doing, just keep looping the kids through this Three Step Process, they're gonna be building their own thinking. It's almost like a, a machine, right? 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Sarah: Um, that builds their thinking. And it so simplifies [00:25:00] what I'm doing in the classroom. 'cause I just have to keep pointing back to this Three Step Meaning Making Process. And so step one is start small. Step two is seek connections, and step three is take action. And with the start small, it's, you know, what are those small things you're noticing? And we talked about the OTAs with the reading, but. It can be, you know, the OTAs by the way work for anything. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Sarah: They work for like things you're noticing about your writing that you could revise, they work for, you know, things that you're hearing in this conversation that you wanna, I use it as a protocol in almost every professional presentation that I give.

I teach how to do OTAs and then we use them as a discussion protocol and like, turn to your neighbor and tell them about your OTA and so. So step one for me is almost always the OTAs. Not always, but almost always OTAs. We just use them in a different kind of way. And sometimes they look, sometimes they're margin comments on a shared document and sometimes they're, you know, they're just a lot of ways, but just what's something small you're noticing?

And then seek connections. Um, I've got two main ways that I do this and the ideas for [00:26:00] kids to make connections across their small noticings so they can start to build bigger thinking. It's still a very tentative place. And, um, one way that kids do this is with the writing task that I call Rambling Thoughts.

And, um, they, and I mentioned this very briefly earlier, but, you know, inspired by Kate Roberts in A Novel Approach. But I'll have them select, you know, two to six OTAs and move them into the writer's notebook and then just ramble. The rambling I got from Linda Rief's, um,Quickwrite book. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Sarah: The rambling autobiography in there. And so I just love that. And I invited my students to ramble once and they rambled their way into the best writing I'd seen all year 

Olivia: Ramble into writing. I love it. 

Sarah: It was crazy. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Sarah: And so I tell the kids, I'm like, this is rambling writing. It's just for you to like, explore and just to write to, to make sense of things. And it's crazy. Like almost, I hardly ever get kids pushing back at doing rambling writings. They, the rambling thoughts, they, there's something about it that they [00:27:00] like and I'm like, gimme your worst writing. Like, and most of the time I don't, I mean, I don't collect them. Sometimes I have kids take a photo and turn it in, um, to me so that I can just get a sense of how things are going.

But they're for them, they're for them, you know, build their thinking. And then the other way to build thinking for step two is that is talking with other people, and they do that through conference conversations with me. They do that through informal, ongoing conversation with their table mates, and then they do that through more formal classroom conversations like a Harkness table in my IB Lit class or what we call a bucket fishbowl discussion in my 10th grade class.

It's the same strategy, just, you know, looks different depending on the, on the room. And so then they're connecting across each other's ideas and building bigger thinking. 

And then step three would take action. This is where you figure out what you've figured out through all that conversation and rambling writing and do something with it, you know? And in my IB class that's like, take all that thinking you've built and turn it into, you know, the practice we're doing for the IB assessments [00:28:00] in my standard 10th grade class. It's take all the thinking you've been doing and you know. Put it into the piece of writing you need to do for this, this unit of study.

Um, and so, you know, and I do things to help them figure out how to do that. You know, I call it a, um, idea hunt with my 10th graders and just give them a list - these are all the things where you've, you've collected what you're thinking. Go through and look for ideas that you could write about. 

Olivia: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: So…

Olivia: So let's just pause because. You have a core belief that students can, 

Sarah: Yes, 

Olivia: You trust them. And that is, I know, very, very important to you. And one way I know that I'm much more willing to take risks for someone else is if they allow me time and space to ramble to have a zero draft of where I'm just getting my thinking out so I can get in a state of flow and then get some, get some thoughts that are maybe more cohesive for [00:29:00] myself.

Uh, and I know, like I love the way you write. It just resonates with me. And you wrote Point-Less. We had an interview that lots of people appreciated and I thought it was so, uh - it was moving to me that you go back and and say like, okay, I wrote this book. This is how I've evolved since I wrote this book.

Sarah: Yeah. 

Olivia: I think our kids always need to know that too, that just because they put a piece of writing out there in the world that is always evolving, it can always grow and morph and change. So let's shift now to the talk of assessment. 

Sarah: Okay. 

Olivia: Let's shift to, um. Kind of, you know, what's, what's changed for you since Point-Less. Um, and I want you to just offer, I, I wish I could have a visual right now of the grade, uh, description chart. It's [00:30:00] fan-freaking-tastic. Um, how do you use that with kids? How do you narrow down the learning goals? Like there's so much Sarah that you do um, with kids and it's, the book lays it out, but can you try to capture that for us?

Sarah: Sure. And since I wrote Point-Less, um, I've just really been thinking about all the strategies in that book and what seemed to be the most important strategies for really getting the kids to think about learning rather than point collecting. And, 'cause there's a lot of strategies in that book. And if I were to, you know, for, for and Step Aside, I was gonna have just one chapter to kind of write about grading and how to use this Three Step Meaning Making Process to underpin, um, the way that you approach grading too. And I just, you know, just had to really think about what do seem to be the things that have come to the surface. 

Olivia: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: And I think it's students setting their own learning goals is absolutely key. So key. [00:31:00] And then having them reflect on those goals, um, frequently. 'cause you can't, I tell the kids all the time, you can't just set goals and then never look at them. You have to set goals and look at them. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Sarah: And think about how you're doing and reflect on them. And I model that with my students and I showed them this week. I'm like, oh, I forgot that. I said I wanted to do that. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Sarah: I'm gonna do that and I'm gonna be accountable to all you people 'cause I need to do that. And so, and then the third thing is with evaluation is, um, sure we have evaluation needs to happen, we have to evaluate kids towards standards, whatever. Just teach the kids how to do that. Let them do it and like spend as little of your energy as possible evaluating their work. Like it's much better for them and more um, it helps cultivate their agency and helps them show where show, show them where their power lies if they can be doing that work themselves. And so in thinking about all of that, um, I [00:32:00] realized there was a missing piece and Point-Less, um, where I felt like I wasn't, the Point-Less approach wasn't really helping kids to understand what the work of the learning goals looked like.

And so, um, I have now been using learning progressions, which is nothing you know, new. I didn't invent learning progressions, but it was what I needed to help my students understand like what's the found, like what given a, given a goal, like revise extensively to improve a piece of writing, what's foundational and then where do you grow and extend your learning from there.

So once I started presenting these learning progressions to the kids, they had this ability to self-evaluate on the learning progressions, to try to determine which goals they should set. Then also to use the language and the learning progressions to help make their learning their plans, their plans for learning and growth um, more specific and targeted. And then also it gives them a way to progress monitor in a more meaningful way. [00:33:00] And so it's been, I think, a really important missing piece for my students. And so they evaluate on the learning progressions near the beginning of the, of, of a semester. And then at the end when they're, um, gonna be selecting their semester grades and writing their, their stories of their journeys as learners. 

And then again at the end of the year. And hopefully, you know, in doing that, they can really see their growth across the whole year. So there's that. But I have to tell you that I continue to evolve and I wanted to be able to hand my students like a set of learning goals that came from them.

Olivia: Yeah, yeah. 

Sarah: Rather than, instead of learning goals that came from me and chapter two of Point-Less walks you through a process. Of how to create a set of learning goals based on your curriculum. And just some thinking that I've been doing since, like, I've been trying to be so more intentional about the standards.

And for a long time I thought, well, my learning goals are tied to the standards, so I'm good. But, um, I don't know. I, I still could be, what I've discovered is being more intentional about the standards actually [00:34:00] free up, frees me up somewhat 'cause it allows me to cut through. As an English teacher, you wanna teach all the things. But the standards let me be like, no, actually that's a thing that they'll get next year, so I'm gonna focus on this thing. And um, so I've gotten more intentional about the standards and putting them in front of the kids in some interesting, like, ways like daily, like, like classroom, like conversation, reflection and some other things that we're doing, um, in the classroom.

And so I thought, all right, so now that I'm like, have the standards embedded somewhere else. Maybe I can play around with the learning goals a bit. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Sarah: And so I did that and um, after the kids got used to the class, I asked them on a Google form, what do you wanna learn? And with my IB kids, I gave them just a two-page, like at a glance document from IB about the IB lit curriculum that had the three areas of, um, areas of focus on one side, and then the, uh, assessments on the other side.

And I gave them that. I said, what do you wanna learn? And they outta six 60 kids [00:35:00] responded and they, I took their responses and I put them into an AI chat bot, um, because this is how that can help me. I said, please summarize for me what my students said they wanted to learn in a list of like seven goals or something.

And, um, it, it was a, it gave me something that actually hit all of the items in the curriculum. I did have to combine a couple 'cause they were, they were repetitive. And I did have to add one about my Three Step Meaning Making Process 'cause I wanted that to be articulate, like a goal, 

Olivia: Right. 

Sarah: But I had these seven content goals that came from the kids and it was so great to be able to say, guys, this came from you.

Olivia: Awesome. 

Sarah: Right? And then I did it with the sophomores too. And I said, now that you've been through one, you know, loop of content in this class um, one unit, like, what do you wanna learn to get better as a reader, writer, speaker, et cetera. And did the same process with them. And I also got a list of learning goals that came from them.

Um, and then my, there's also three [00:36:00] behavior, like learning behavior goals that, um, those, I told the kids, I'm like, this is, this is your teacher who's been watching high school kids for 30 years. These are the things, these are the behaviors that I know lead to success. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Sarah: And so I left those on there as they are. And then the other piece too was I didn't wanna jump ship with my learning goals. 'cause I had learning progressions that I, I had written about them and I thought like it took me so much time to write those. I wonder if the chat bot can help me with learning progressions too. 

Olivia: Yes. 

Sarah: And yes it can. 

Olivia: Yeah, 

Sarah: it was kind of crazy. And um, I like being able to model for kids. I think smart. Like, you know, legal use of AI chat bots. Um, you know, I'd say this is a, it's a qualitative data analysis task that would take me hours. Um, and the result that I got, I needed to mess around a little bit. But it is true and honest to what you, what you all said. So, so that's my new like, evolving piece is, um, being able to [00:37:00] serve up learning goals to the kids that came from them. 

Olivia: Yeah, when I was reading that section in the book. I went back in my mind to Point-Less, and then I thought, ah, the progressions, that, that's the layer that's there. And again, it's access points. So I know as a student what I can do to excel. I know what my basic understanding needs to be of this. 

Sarah: Yep. 

Olivia: You, you give me, pun intended, the roadmap. To know where I'm going and then if, if I have that clarity as a learner. I mean, think of, I, I go back to when I was in high school, Sarah, I had no idea often where the learning was going and I was super compliant.

I would show up, I would do the task that was asked of me, but I wish I knew more of, you know, the overall journey. I want to make sure listeners know these learning goals. They're for the year. You're not crafting 10 learning goals [00:38:00] unit by unit. 

Sarah: Right. 

Olivia: Um, and so that's, to me it's maybe feel like a heavier lift up front, but then you're, you have those to circle back to over and over and over with the kids. And earlier today, my son is off at school and I am really enjoying it getting Insta reels from him where he'll ask me a question about teaching. He's sending me educational reels and saying like, is this what it's like in your schools? 

And it's like this little conversation we're having. And um, something he sent me today was a teacher saying that it's frustrating when kids act out that they get more of the attention and take away learning experiences from kids that are like there and game on. And my response was, well, yeah, that happens everywhere but it's also, I think, my responsibility to figure out why kids may be acting out. Because usually it's avoidance or [00:39:00] some type of like, this isn't working for me, and they're acting out for a variety of reasons. So that was my message back, but it's this little Insta reel correspondence.

Sarah: Yeah, that's great. 

Olivia: That I'm appreciating, um, as he gets older. 

Sarah: That's great. 

Olivia: I think, um, something I love about you is you live and breathe this work, and so I wanna do a lightning round to wrap our conversation and, um, I have some questions. I'm gonna throw 'em at you and just give me your gut instinct. So here we go. Um, teachers should step aside when _______, but step in when _______.

Sarah: Step aside when students are talking, thinking, deciding, et cetera, and step in to listen and to use what you, uh, discover to craft this, you know, classroom experience for kids that really invites them to engage. 

Olivia: Nice. Uh, so let's go to then, I love chapter, the [00:40:00] chapter on talk. Give us three of the best strategies to get talk going in a community. 

Sarah: My go-tos are, um, teaching kids how to do the informal, like turn to your neighbor kind of stuff and don't assume that they know how to do that. I've been starting to prompt those by saying, turn to your neighbor and ask them, rather than turn to them and tell them to be like, trying to propel things.

And then also teach 'em how to do like the big whole class more formalized conversation. Teach them how to do that too 'cause I really like that. Um, and it's like a, a time that the class can be doing something altogether. I'm a big fan of like a, like a smaller circle in the middle and people on the outside doing a listening task and then going to the outside circle after this. The inside circle talks for a while. Anyway. And then my third one though, um, whole class workshop, um, from, I've been following the strategies in, uh, The Anti-Racist Writing Workshop book by [00:41:00] Felicia Rose Chavez. Brilliant. Brilliant. Yeah. 

Olivia: Awesome. All right. What's, uh, the biggest misconception about student driven learning?

Sarah: It's not a free for all, people. It's not a free for all. 

Olivia: It's not, it's not. Um, I, I am interested to know, out of all the learning goals you have gathered, what's something that you think needs to be prioritized consistently? 

Sarah: Well, the thing is, I've got learning goals that are different for all my classes. Yeah. And, um, so I think, I don't know, just some goal about kids, like building their own thinking. 

Olivia: Hmm. I like it. I like it. Um, five years down the road, uh, after everyone reads this book, because teachers need to read this book, and I'm gonna put a plug, I know it says, Learning with Secondary Readers and Writers, kids need to read and write in every content area.

Science, social studies, math - lots of reading and writing. So I believe in my heart of hearts, you can use the strategies from this book: [00:42:00] it doesn't matter what content area you're teaching, it will help all of this, Sarah. It will help. So after everyone reads your book and we come back together to talk about it, what is your sitting and writing did you hope classrooms would look like based on this book?

Sarah: Well, I hope the teachers and I include myself in this, um, 'cause my writing has actually always been very selfish in one way. Like I do it to make myself a better teacher. 'cause if I can write it clearly enough that, you know, a publisher will publish it, that means that I have like a clear understanding of what I'm trying to do.

So anyway, I hope teachers, myself included, um, well notice places where they can step aside, where they didn't think they could step aside. And that's me with my learning goals this year. Like I wanna give the kids learning goals that came from them. How can I step aside from that? And I've figured out a way to do it.

So I just hope that teachers will continue to like, look at their classroom in that way and be thinking, um, where am I doing too much of the thinking work for the kids and I can turn it over to them [00:43:00] and it will make them stronger humans. 

Olivia: You make me stronger every time I read your words. And, um, I'm just so grateful because as I said, I'm using this, I'm using all of the strategies, but this book is such, it's a work of art for many reasons. And every different teacher, I carry it with me, but I show, they're like, oh, they's so helpful. So you need to know that because 

Sarah: Thank you. 

Olivia: I think sometimes as a writer it's helpful to you and you're getting it out there, but this is helpful to so many teachers, so. Um, I just, I, I appreciate you getting it out there in the world. Thank you, Sarah. 

Sarah: Thank you, Olivia.  

Olivia: I appreciate you. 

Sarah: Thank you. 

Olivia: And I can't wait to see you at NCTE. This is coming out after that, but I cannot wait. 

Sarah: I'm looking forward to it as well

Olivia: Yeah, it'll be great. Take care. Take care. Schoolutions Teaching Strategies is created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. [00:44:00] Thank you to my older son Benjamin, who created the music playing in the background. You can follow and listen to Schoolutions wherever you get your podcasts or subscribe to. Never miss an episode and watch on YouTube. Thank you to my guest, Sarah Zerwin, for sharing how we can step aside to give students more ownership over their learning journey.

Here's my invitation: Now that you've listened to this episode, I want you to do one thing, look at your next unit or lesson and ask yourself. Where am I doing too much of the thinking work for my students? Find one moment, just one, where you can step aside. Maybe it's having students generate their own discussion questions. Maybe it's asking them what they want to learn rather than telling them. Maybe it's giving them post-it notes and saying, notice something. Think about it. That's your starting point. And if you wanna go deeper, grab Sarah Zerwin's book, step Aside, and Let it be your guide. [00:45:00] Trust me, the charts alone are worth it, but the shift in thinking, that's what will transform your classroom.

Don't forget to tune in every Monday for the best research-backed coaching and teaching strategies you can apply right away to better the lives of the children in your care. And stay tuned for my bonus episodes every Friday. Where I'll reflect and share connections to what I learned from the guests that week. Until next time, start small, seek connections, and take action.