The Play Crisis & Permission to Say Yes

Part One of my S5E19  @schoolutionspodcast conversation with Rusty Keeler explores how to integrate more unstructured play, loose parts, and outdoor activities for kids into daily life, fostering child development and encouraging open-ended play. It's time to grow imagination.

Rusty has spent 30+ years designing and advocating for natural outdoor play around the world, and he's witnessed firsthand how we've fundamentally changed childhood. While we've created increasingly "safe" playgrounds with rubberized surfaces and strict rules, childhood anxiety and lack of resilience have skyrocketed. We've been doing it wrong.

In Part 1, you'll discover:
- The crucial difference between risks (good!) and hazards (remove them!)
- Why cardboard boxes and traffic cones unlock more creativity than expensive equipment
- How the Reimagining Recess project transformed schools by training adults to say YES
- The three simple rules that can replace your entire playground rulebook
- Why loose parts create equity and let ALL children shine
- Which countries are leading the play revolution (and what we can learn from them)

This isn't just about recess—it's about classroom belonging, student engagement, student motivation, active learning, inspiring students, and creating thriving students through a pro-kid mindset. When children experience authentic play, they develop the resilience and creativity that translates directly into classroom behavior, student participation, and attention in class.

Stay tuned for Part Two (on Friday), where Rusty tackles liability myths, storage solutions, and the "Anarchy Zone" success story—plus exactly how to have tough conversations with administrators.

Some resources mentioned:
➡️Reimagining Recess Project (Ithaca Public Education Initiative)
➡️OPAL (Outdoor Play and Learning) - UK
➡️Peter Gray
➡️Adventures in Risky Play 
➡️Play Nature Podcast 

Chapters
0:00 - Introduction: The Play Crisis in Modern Childhood
1:00 - Meet Rusty Keeler: 30 Years of Play Revolution
3:00 - How Childhood Has Changed Since the 70s/80s
6:00 - The Global Screen Time Problem
8:00 - Risks vs. Hazards: The Crucial Difference
11:00 - Reimagining Recess: A Model for Schools Everywhere
13:00 - The Power of Loose Parts (Cardboard, Tires, Traffic Cones!)
16:00 - How Loose Parts Create Equity on the Playground
18:00 - The Ripple Effect: From Recess to Writer's Workshop
19:00 - Lightning Round: Best Free Loose Parts
19:45 - Lightning Round: Playground Rules to Ditch
20:20 - Lightning Round: Which Country Does Recess Best?
21:00 - Lightning Round: Essential Books About Play
22:00 - The Future of Play Advocacy
23:00 - Your Challenge: Step Back and Observe
24:00 - What's Next in Part 2

Join our community of educators committed to cultivating student success, inspired teaching, and creating inclusive classrooms with a pro-kid mindset focused on the whole child. 

📧 Connect: schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com
🎵 Music: Benjamin Wahl

When coaches, teachers, administrators, and families work hand in hand, it fosters a school atmosphere where everyone is inspired and every student is fully engaged in their learning journey.

Transcript

Olivia: [00:00:00] Happy New Year everyone. It's Olivia Wahl, and today we are talking about something that might make you a little uncomfortable, and that's exactly the point. When was the last time you saw a group of children just roaming – bikes scattered across a neighborhood, kids disappearing into the woods until dinner time, building forts with whatever they could find.

If you grew up in the seventies, eighties, even early nineties, this was just childhood. But if you're raising kids today, this almost feels radical, maybe even reckless. My guest today, Rusty Keeler, believes that we’ve fundamentally changed childhood, not because kids have changed. Because we've wrapped them in layers of fear-based rules that actually prevent the very experiences they need to become resilient, creative, [00:01:00] confident humans.

Rusty has spent over 30 years across over 20 countries designing natural outdoor play environments, and he's on a mission to spark what he calls a play revolution. And here's the counterintuitive part. He says that the safest thing we can do for our children is let them experience manageable danger. See, most of us have created increasingly safe playgrounds, rubberized surfaces, low equipment, tons of rules, while childhood anxiety and lack of resilience have absolutely skyrocketed, we've been doing it wrong. We've confused protecting children with preventing them from learning how to protect themselves.

Rusty's going to introduce us to the difference between risks and hazards, explain why cardboard boxes and traffic cones might be more valuable than expensive playground equipment, and share how the Reimagining Recess Project here in [00:02:00] Ithaca, New York transform schools by training adults to say yes instead of reflexively saying, no.

Here's what you'll walk away with: practical ways loose parts unlock creativity. Why observation beats policing every time. And how stepping back with a cloak of invisibility as Rusty calls it lets you see the magic that's been there all along. If you've ever felt that gut clench watching your child climb higher, or if you're an educator feeling alone and believing play matters more than test prep, this conversation is for you. Let's jump in.

This is Schoolutions Teaching Strategies, the podcast that extends education beyond the classroom. A show that isn't just theory, but practical try-it-tomorrow approaches for educators and caregivers to ensure every student finds their spark and receives the support they need to [00:03:00] thrive. 

I am Olivia Wahl, and I am so excited to be in conversation with Rusty Keeler today. Let me tell you a little bit about Rusty. Rusty Keeler is on a mission to spark a play revolution, bringing nature, risk, and pure joy back into childhood. Rusty believes that children need to connect with the real world outside. Our conversation today will focus on his experiences with designing natural outdoor play environments. You must know that Rusty has written three different books and also hosts the Play Nature podcast. 

Rusty, I am so happy to have your insights and experience shared with my listeners, so let's jump into conversation. 

Rusty: Sounds great. So happy to be here. 

Olivia: Yeah. So I start every episode, um, with asking guests a piece of research or a researcher that ties to the topic we're discussing. What would you love to share about? [00:04:00] 

Rusty: You know, I'm a big fan of Peter Gray, uh, who is a research psychologist, um, in, in Boston. Um, and I've just been following his work for years. He's delving, delves into play, child-directed learning, self-directed learning, and he always has just incredible things, things to say that kind of just opened my mind and, you know, and, and kind of the idea of, 'cause I, I'm kind of a advocate and a, um, you know, builder and kind of doing, doing things in the play world because I believe in it. And then it's nice to see research that, you know, that follows it up and backs it up, you know, sprints us on.

Olivia: Yeah, I agree. I agree. I am trying a new structure and so what we're gonna do is have part one of our conversation and then break it into a second, part two. And, um, we're recording all of it today. And so the part one I really wanna [00:05:00] focus on, I'm deeming it, the play crisis, and then with a positivity switch - um, also permission to say yes because you have so many strategies that allow us to shift from the no to yes. With that said, you have 30 plus years doing this work across 20 plus countries. And I'd love for you to start the conversation with how have you seen play change and shift over the years with our kids?

Rusty: Sure. Um, you know, I grew up playing in the seventies and the eighties and it was like the classic free range childhood. Um, you know, I lived in kind of a small town, so it was relatively safe just to roam and range around, and I both had fields behind my house that seemed to go on forever. Uh, and I was there in all seasons of the year. And then I was able to, you know, as soon as I was 10, I was on the bike and the town [00:06:00] was mine. 

The town was kids, you know, it felt like it belonged to kids. And you know, they're the ones who were out and about. You know, even all adults are working and doing other things. So for me, that was what normal childhood was like. Or if you picture like old Sesame Street, you know episodes, you know, where it was just like kids were just out and about. Um, and kids generally speaking aren't out and about like that anymore. And I've been kind of in denial of it for a long time, or believing like, no, it's not really, or it's okay or, uh, I don't know.

But it's, it's certainly clear and, you know, with rise of technology with certainly, you know, uh 24-hour news networks. You know, there's all these different reasons, uh, that you know, you can dive into, but certainly childhood has shifted in that sense of children just having that kind of freedom of time, freedom of space, having actual safe neighborhoods [00:07:00] 'cause that's another thing. There are neighborhoods that aren't safe. Um, and, and then the technology and phones and screens. 

And it's all over the world. It’s, it's not just New York states, not just the United States, not just North America. It is, it is a concern everywhere. And even in developing countries, screens are a big part of things now. So even where you would think like, oh, well technology's, you know, the technology has kind of skipped ahead. Even in those, those countries and, and children are on screen. So there is definitely a beaming to our children and a more sedentary lifestyle. And again, generally speaking, but but still kind of across, across borders and across socioeconomic, you know, levels too.

Um, so yeah, so I think that sense of like, you don't see the kind of free flow, uh, you know, of, of childhood just out, out and about for one thing, let alone schools and [00:08:00] recess and, um, you know, pressure at school and amount of time for free, you know, free time within schools and over scheduled and everything.

Olivia: Well, and you do a beautiful job because I know caregivers often want to make sure their kids are safe, and so there is this fear looming - you've alluded to it a little bit about like letting your kids just go. And what age is that appropriate? And there are judgy neighbors that, there are implications. And so it matters where you live. It matters who you are, it matters your skin color, sadly. All of these factors play in. Um, and you do a really nice job of differentiating between risks and hazards. So I'd love for you then to explain your thinking around that because I think it will help caregivers to have the wording and, um, support their wanting to let their [00:09:00] kids out.

Rusty: Sure. Um, well, you know, irisk and hazard is nice to think about in a, say, a set play area or the woods or nature. Or a playground at school. And I, I kind of differentiate it between, and I say risks are good. Children trying things they haven't tried before. You know, learning grit or resiliency or failing and then get back, getting back up, you know, learning to take a risk um, checking in with themselves. Hazards are things, they're both a little dangerous and they could get hurt, but a risk is something a child chooses. Makes a decision. Checks within themselves. Do I wanna do this? Do I not wanna do this? A hazard is something that, uh, could hurt a child, but they don't see it so out in a yard.

Even if we're having messier, muddier, riskier things, you know, we as adults can check for hazards like, I don't know, a chunk of concrete or, you know, rebar from a play [00:10:00] equipment that's sticking up or you know, broken toys and that kinda stuff. We can clear out hazards. So that we can feel more comfortable letting children take risks, doing wilder things.

Olivia: Yeah. Well said. Well said. So then, you know, full disclosure, I live in Ithaca. You live in Ithaca? 

Rusty: Yep. 

Olivia: And my younger son benefited from a project with IPEI, Ithaca Public Education Initiative called Reimagining Recess. You spearheaded that project. You are heavily involved. And for me as a caregiver. That project truly serves as a model that could be replicated all over the world. So I would love for you to share, you know, what did that project involve? Um, what key players did community members have in getting this up and running in different schools? 

Rusty: Yeah. So, um, the general idea of the project is [00:11:00] to support, give children at recess more choice. More opportunities for play, creativity, collaboration, and freedom. So, you know, recess often has a lot of rules. Playground equipment is usually pretty strong and you can't change it or move it. And then there's adults out there that are like, don't do this. Don't do that. They're like policing.

And while it still is a time of freedom outside the classroom, it is, it often can be very restrictive anyway. So you know, I'm somebody who's inspired by adventure play and adventure playgrounds. So you see in Europe where the kids are building with tools and building their own structures, having fire and animals and gardens and you know, this kind of freedom.

The playwork profession, it kind of came out of Europe after World War II and it's people who like support, play, know the beauty and benefits of play. [00:12:00] Yes, for learning. You know, there's lot of people saying these ask play is learning. And that's a way to kind of, you know, to, to say that play is important.

But even deeper than that, there's a million, billion things going on with play in their bodies, in children's brains, in their hearts, their muscles, their joints, their, you know, neuro, neuro pathways, everything. So there's so much going on with play. It is so important that children have it. It's the natural way that we grow and develop.

So where are children? And if we think about play equity. And playgrounds and green spaces. And where do children play or safety of, of, of neighborhoods? Well, where are children every day They're at school. And so that adds a really amazing opportunity to create an environment, both the physical environment and kind of a culture of play and supporting children in a different way that's inspired by playwork, that's inspired by saying yes to children and trying to say no as little as possible.

So that was this idea of Reimagining [00:13:00] Recess. And, and so, um, it was Dr. Beth Myers and myself. Um, she's in Ithaca also. Um, and she's at Northeast Elementary as a, right now, a first-grade teacher, which she also is a visionary play person in the, in the play world. Um, it was this idea of like, okay, how can we do an adventure playground model in a school? And so it involved a shed, loose parts, getting a little grant, not, not a huge amount of money. It didn't take a lot. Um, loose parts like tires and traffic cones and cardboard boxes and boards and training, teacher training, and, uh, recess aid training to rethink what recess is, to rethink what play is, to rethink what the possibilities are and to, to limit the amount of rules and to increase the observation and appreciation of play. 

And you know, sometimes with loose parts, all [00:14:00] these kinds of things, we, we imagine, you know, rightly so, that it's amazing for early childhood, right? Preschoolers, they, they build and they're creating in the mud kitchens and all this stuff. And, and of course it's an incredible Right. We love that. But loose parts are great for all ages. 

Olivia: They sure are. 

Rusty: And, they sure are. And so we put this out there and you know, it was an experiment. And at the same time we had models, you know, European models where they're doing this kind of thing. Grab soar, play pods, OPAL, we can get into that. So we knew, we knew it was possible. We believe in this kind of thing. So with training teachers and the adults, uh, well we a lot of different directions to go here, but first off, for the children, once they've realized, oh -  I can use this stuff however I want. It's okay if I do this. Boom. They're off to the races.

They just had to get the nod of like, it's okay. And when you see children with loose parts, and I've been to play conferences, you know, international play conferences, and you [00:15:00] see the same thing like cardboard and traffic con and boards and tires and frying pans in Japan, in Brazil, in Canada, Iceland, you know, the kids are doing stuff with it. Right. It's, it's, it's inborn. It's, it's, it's their nature. So what if you did that in a recess? And so children, of course, are flourishing with it. The adults. That was, that's the tricky part of like, okay, this is okay. And some of it is risk. Some of it is saying, okay, it's a little messier. Maybe it is a little riskier.

But wait, they could handle it. Like if we, instead of stepping forward and stopping stuff, that makes us a little nervous. What if we just step back and observe. And watch what's going on. And when we observe this stuff, kids are doing incredible things and building and collaborating and, and like, like never before, like before it was like you had your playground equipment, you had kickball games, soccer games, and maybe, you know, a few areas where kids could just kind of get away [00:16:00] from it all under a tree and stuff.

And, and, and that, okay. That's, that's great. And if you have freedom, if you have less rules for that, that can be a positive thing. But it also kind of sets this level of who excels, like who's a leader, the leader of the best kickball player, or the best monkey ball, you know, monkey bar person. But you put the loose parts out there and suddenly new people can thrive. New people can shine. People who have. Great ideas what to do with cardboard boxes or have like this vast imagination or neurodiverse children who are seeing the playground in a whole different way, and you give, tarp them tarps and, and then they can lead other kids. And so it's also this beautiful equalizer and, and also celebrating, you know, people's gifts and everything.

So it was, yeah, a, a beautiful process that is not, that in one level, not that difficult. At the same time, it takes, it's a lot of conversations because recess and saying no and adults' [00:17:00] jobs and what they, you know, it's beautifully complex. All this stuff in risky play like, there's so many layers to it and what other adults are gonna think. Or the idea that some adults, like the hierarchy of like, um, the one who sort mm-hmm. Know and what you can,

Olivia: The control.

Rusty: And what can, what you can… 

Olivia: You know, Rusty, this is also making me think so much about access to shared experiences. And so my first years teaching were in California and all of my children were bilingual, some multilingual, and our whole day was constructed around creating shared experiences. And this entire this, this whole concept, this whole project offers fertile ground for children to take everything that's happening in those experiences of rolling a tire down a hill and watching how fast it can go. Like, I've actually seen this in action at my son's elementary building. Um, [00:18:00] and then they can go in and during writer's workshop, they can write about that experience.

It gives them, it, it gives them something to talk about at lunch. It gives kids, you know, oh, I wanna read more about this. So I think, you know, we're talking about this happening outside the walls of a classroom, but there are beautiful ripple effects that go a million miles into the homes. The caregivers can talk about this, so I will make sure to tuck a link into the Reimagining Recess Project and to IPEI in the show notes for this episode so people can learn more. IPEI is such an important part of our community. 

Rusty: Yeah. 

Olivia: I want to wrap part one with some lightning round questions. Then listeners, just so you know, Part Two, we're going to go in depth with liability as well because you've studied that Rusty. And a lot of it is fear-based and um, you know, also it's kind of phantom policy that doesn't always exist, but it's in our mind. So [00:19:00] lightning round, coming at your Rusty. Are you ready? 

Rusty: Okay. 

Olivia: Here we go. Here we go. Okay. First question, what is the best loose part at no cost? 

Rusty: Oh my gosh. Uh, you know, it's almost like anything that you have laying around, uh, you know, it could be the cardboard box. Here we go Christmas, there's gonna be a lot of cardboard boxes.

Olivia: Yeah. 

Rusty: Uh, it could be mud kitchen things like we have some beat up pots and pans. You know, we've all got in back of our cupboards. There's some things that are ready, some frying pans that are ready for the, the mud kitchen. So, yeah. 

Olivia: Okay. Yeah. All right. Um, what is a playground rule? We need to ditch right away.

Rusty: Oh my gosh. I, you know, I almost all of them. I mean, no running, no tag, you know, these, these knee jerk reactions, somebody got hurt playing tag. So there's no tag. I always think that's a solution. But is it, is that the right solution? Um, I've, I like these schools that saying there's three rules now: It's don't hurt anybody. Don't hurt your yourself and take and don't hurt the environment. You know, be, take care of each of those three things. 

Olivia: Awesome. 

Rusty: So if, if we [00:20:00] can boil it down to bat. Great. 

Olivia: Beautiful. Yeah. Which country is doing recess best right now? 

Rusty: That's a great question. Um, I know, uh, England and Scotland, uh, are doing amazing things. Wales is doing amazing things. They're kinda leading the way with play policy at a governmental level. 

Olivia: Oh, smart. 

Rusty: Um, so it's really exciting to see that that kind of, uh, child right to play. And so the UK has this incredible organization, OPAL, O-P-A-L, uh, outdoor Playing Learning. And they have these in. Very, very, um, inspiring schools that, yeah. That do training and loose parts and all sorts of stuff, so great stuff. 

Olivia: Awesome. Um, what's a book about play that everyone should read? You can recommend your own.

Rusty: Yes. Adventures and Risky Play by rest. You. Um, I, there there's two as far as, uh, they kinda have this concept and Roxaboxin. These are children's books actually. And that is like adventure [00:21:00] play and the freedom of childhood. And it is like adventure play in the desert. Mm. And so that's beautiful. And then there, a favorite book of mine growing up was Katrina Catarina and the Box. And that shows a spunky girl and her creativity with cardboard box and, and kinda the possibilities of, of imagination and, and empowerment. And, and resiliency. 

Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. All right. Last question, part one of the conversation. We'll wrap here. What do you hope play advocacy looks like in the next 10 years? 

Rusty: Yeah. Um, I'd like to see play everywhere. I'd like to see, I, it feels like we reached a point where we really need, as adults who believe in this really need to step up our advocacy. Be talking about it and to be doing pilots and to be coming together as communities in, in schools, in neighborhoods, community centers. And I would [00:22:00] like the play work model to be spread far and wide to inspire us to be saying yes and um, because we, we need it. And especially with technology kind of creeping on and engulfing all of us.

Um, I think there needs to be pushback and none of that has its place. But we also need to play has its place, connecting to nature, connecting to seasons, to connecting to each other as humans has its place. Uh, and I think that should be front and center. So I would just like to see people mobilizing people who believe this, let's come together. Let's, let's have the conversations, let's have our think tanks. You know, let's, let's move together as a community. 

Olivia: I love it. All right, uh, listeners, stay tuned for Part Two. We're going to talk a lot about the playbook and how to make this happen in your schools and your districts with your families. I don't know about you, but I'm sitting here thinking about every time I've said, be careful this week. Every time I've jumped in too [00:23:00] quickly, every time I've stopped kids from doing something that made me uncomfortable, not something that was actually unsafe. 

Rusty said something in this Part One of our conversation that's going to stick with me: The difference between risks and hazards are hidden dangers that we need to remove. Risks are visible challenges children choose for themselves and those risks. Those are where the learning happens, where resilience gets built, where confidence grows, and here's what gives me so much hope. You don't need a complete playground overhaul to start this. You don't need fancy equipment or a big budget.

Cardboard boxes, old tires, traffic cones, boards, pots, pans for mud kitchens, things you probably already have or could gather for free. The real shift isn't in the materials, it's in us. It's in training ourselves to step back [00:24:00] instead of stepping in. To observe instead of police, to ask ourselves, am I stopping this because it's genuinely dangerous or because it makes me nervous.

If Part One of our conversation resonated with you, do me a favor, like this episode, share it with another caregiver or educator who needs to hear it and then take one action. Identify one rule in your home, classroom, or playground that needs to go. Just one start there. Friday I'm continuing this conversation with Part Two where Rusty gets super practical about implementation. We're talking about storage solutions, confronting the liability myth, and hearing the success story of the Anarchy Zone at Ithaca Children's Garden, you'll learn exactly how to have those tough conversations with administrators and insurance companies, and you might be surprised how open they actually are.

Until then, go outside, watch your [00:25:00] kids play, and practice saying yes. See you on Wednesday for the 60 second bite-size piece of our conversation that you can share with others and Friday for part two of our conversation.