What Neurodivergent Children ACTUALLY Need to Learn

Part One of my S5E25 @schoolutionspodcast conversation challenges traditional classroom management. Dr. Courtney Bishop, a neurodivergent mom, shares a vital neuroscience principle that can reshape parenting neurodivergent kids and improve IEP meetings. This insight offers a fresh perspective for parents navigating school challenges and understanding their child's needs.

What You'll Learn:
✨ Why traditional behavior systems fail neurodivergent kids
✨ The difference between regulation and resilience (and why we need BOTH)
✨ Universal tools that work for educators, parents, and leaders
✨ Red flags that schools aren't neurodivergence-informed
✨ How to shift from deficit-focused to strength-based approaches

Courtney shares her signature framework for raising regulated AND resilient humans, debunking the myth that emotional awareness creates "soft" kids. This is essential viewing for teachers, education coaches, school administrators, parents, homeschoolers, teacher mentors, instructional leaders, and school counselors committed to inclusive teaching, culturally responsive teaching, and equity in education.

Some episode mentions:
➡️John Hattie's Visible Learning
➡️Conscious Discipline

Don't miss the continuation of this powerful conversation! In Part 2, Dr. Courtney Bishop shifts from systems-level change to practical, actionable strategies you can implement immediately.

Chapters:
0:00 Introduction - Why Traditional Behavior Systems Fail
1:00 Meet Dr. Courtney Bishop - Neurodivergent Mom & Conscious Discipline Coach
2:00 Research Foundation - Making Thinking Visible
3:00 The Crisis in Education for Neurodivergent Children
4:00 Why Traditional Behavior Management Fails Neurodivergent Kids
6:00 The Yes And Conscious Coaching Framework
8:00 Raising Regulated and Resilient Humans
10:00 The Truth About Regulation vs. Resilience
12:00 Empathy Over Toughness - A New Generation
13:00 Coaching Adults vs. Teaching Children
15:00 Universal Supports - Finding Common Ground
17:00 When Parents and Schools Meet Fire with Fire
18:00 Tools and Resources for Caregivers
19:00 Lightning Round - Myths About Neurodivergent Students
20:00 Red Flags - Schools That Aren't Prepared
21:00 60 Seconds with the Secretary of Education
23:00 Preview of Part Two - Tactical IEP Strategies

Join our community of educators committed to cultivating student success, inspired teaching, and creating inclusive classrooms with a pro-kid mindset focused on the whole child.

🎧 New episodes every Monday & Friday with bite-sized Wednesday reel bonus content.
📧 Connect: schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com
🎵 Music: Benjamin Wahl

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When coaches, teachers, administrators, and families work hand in hand, it fosters a school atmosphere where everyone is inspired and every student is fully engaged in their learning journey.

Transcript

Olivia: [00:00:00] What if everything we thought we knew about classroom behavior was actually backwards? Dr. Courtney Bishop, neurodivergent mom and conscious discipline coach reveals why gold star systems and clip charts are setting most of our brilliant children up to fail and she shares one brain science principle that could transform every IEP meeting, parent-teacher conference and meltdown moment. If you've ever felt like this system just doesn't see your child or yourself. This conversation will change everything.

This is Schoolutions Teaching Strategies, the podcast that extends education beyond the classroom. A show that isn't just theory, but practical try-it-tomorrow approaches for educators and caregivers to ensure every student finds their spark and receives the support they need to thrive. [00:01:00] I am Olivia Wahl, and I am so delighted to be in conversation with my friend and colleague and thought partner Dr. Courtney Bishop today. Let me tell you a little bit about Courtney. Courtney is a growth-minded continuing educator with a doctoral emphasis in adult learning. Her work centers on giving us practical, accessible tools to pause, challenge old narratives, and move forward with intention. Our conversation today will focus on her journey as a neurodivergent mom of two boys that led her to create Yes And Conscious Coaching. Courtney, I am so happy to see our face on the screen right now and your insights will be invaluable for my listeners. So thank you for taking the time to talk. 

Courtney: Thank you so much for having me here. I don't even feel like it's real, so I'm just gonna pretend it's you and I chitchatting. 

Olivia: Let's do it. Let's do it. And that's how it should feel. [00:02:00] So…

Courtney: Great. 

Olivia: Um, let's kick off. I know you and I always try to have research, have our back. So based on our conversation today, who, what researcher or piece of research would you love to share? 

Courtney: Oh, I don't even know which one to name, but I think so much of my research is just grounded in making thinking visible. So I would say John Hattie, uh, definitely is just underpinning all of the work that I do as a neurodivergent human. Uh, people can't read my brain. I didn't know that until much later in life. But, um, I think that through that I really fell in love with making, uh, learning visible, making thinking visible. And really starting to think about how we think. And so I think that underpins everything I do, uh, and how I lead this work. 

Olivia: Yeah. I, you know, and I know you have a lovely social following where you really capture a lot of the work you do [00:03:00] of drawing and creating makes that capture the way your brain is working on paper. Um, so I'll make sure to tuck all of your goodness into the show notes as well. And I'm playing with a new structure, um, this year, and what I'm doing is we are going to break this conversation into part one and part two. And so part one of our conversation, I really want to hone-in on what I am calling a crisis in education.

I don't think our neurodivergent caregivers, our neurodivergent children, are seen and heard enough by the system and, uh, bigger structures. So we're going to talk about that a little bit. And I wanna start off with why do traditional behavior management systems really not do justice and in a sense fail our neurodivergent kids?

Courtney: Uh, that word fail is so extreme. 

Olivia: It is.

Courtney: Because I think there's always room for opportunity. And what I also know from the research is that [00:04:00] without failure. We don't build resilience, so we have to fail in order to succeed. Right. So, so I coach from this perspective of when we know better, we do better. Um, and so I think of that with this, um, I think this idea of traditional behavior is based off of observable behaviors that we can see. What can we visually see? We can see someone has a disability. Um, we can see that they have a visual impairment. We can see that they have a physical disability.

But when we talk about neurodivergence specifically, they're invisible. Again. so we're rewarding, uh, desired behaviors and we're, we're teaching kids that external motivation is what drives them so if they can please adults in spaces, uh, then they get rewarded. But if they do not have the ability to sit still or focus or be quiet, um, then that may be seen as defiance or disrespect when really it's just [00:05:00] a, a neurotype and a different wiring of a brain that needs something different in order to process information. So I think it's just a different way of thinking of it. 

Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. And then I want to just shine a light on the gorgeous work you are doing in creating a fresh vision, truly a, a framework for conscious being, for conscious choice and synthesis. So can you speak to that? Because I think it will help a, not just adults for their children, but also I think listeners for themselves.

Courtney: Yeah, absolutely. So when I started this dream, this Barbie dream house, as I like to say, um, I didn't make that up someone way cooler than I did. Uh, however, when I started creating this, I, I, it was all from what I've learned from Conscious Discipline. And Conscious Discipline tells us that it is an adult first child-centered approach.

So everything begins with the adult in the space and their willingness to [00:06:00] lean in, their willingness to see differently, their willingness to hear differently, their willingness to try new skills and strategies. Uh, and so I challenged, what I wanted to do was jump in with kids. I wanted to jump into this course Raising, Regulated and Resilient Humans 'cause I wanted a tangible resource that anybody could buy for a very affordable rate where they get direct instruction to home, they get skills, they get strategies, and they get to try it immediately. Because that's what I know about adult learners is they wanna try it immediately. Immediate application, just like what you share, what did you learn today that you can apply tomorrow?

So even though I wanted to start with the kids, I had to start with the adult and I had to create my signature framework. That's now come to be everything that this work is. But it's just this idea that we are. We are striving mostly for forward motion. If we, if we are going from this premise of, uh, growth is malleable, growth can, uh, we can learn to overcome challenges, [00:07:00] we can learn to succeed in the face of adversity, we know that those things can be learned.

So what do we do? We build capacity, right? So if people had accessible tier one tools to be able to look more internally, to be able to notice a name. Their own values and their own beliefs and their own decision-making systems. Because until they understand those right, and they can think of those differently, then they won't be able to say it to their kids. And if, and if they can't say it to their kids, then how do we expect the kids to develop those skills and strategies and that language? 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Courtney: Um, and, and really that's where all this work came from is Raising, Regulated and Resilient Humans. And I'll talk about why I wanted those two words in the title 'cause there's some controversy around one of them specifically. Um, however, that was always the goal. That's my goal as a mom, that I raise kids that can recognize when they're dysregulated. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Courtney: And they can do something. Oh, the screen likes it, they can do something [00:08:00] about it. And that I raise kids that are resilient, that know what it is to fail because they're daring and they're willing to take risks and be their authentic self. Isn't that the ultimate goal? 

Olivia: It is.

Courtney: Kids that wanna come back and see me and hang out and kick it with mom. Listen to some old school jams. That's what I want.

Olivia: It's so true. Courtney, I, you know, I just had a conversation with Rusty Keeler and he illuminated something for me that I hadn't thought of enough before. He spoke a bit to the difference between risks and hazards. And I love how you just spoke to resiliency as being willing to take risks and that it's okay. And that as caregivers we can be a safe space. Um, and so part of our responsibility is to seek and look out for hazards so our kids are then safe to take the risks. 

Courtney: Absolutely.

Olivia: And I think absolutely, that's a fascinating differentiation. So you also just spoke to the choice [00:09:00] in the title for the course. So get go there quickly. 

Courtney: Yeah. So… 

Olivia: I’m interested. 

Courtney: There's this big, like, I feel like there's so much conversation. A regulation is just such a buzzword, uh, in, in the media, in everything. And I think it's getting a little bit of a bad rap because I think traditional regulation is viewed as like calm, silent still, and zen, kumbaya. It's not necessarily what regulation is. Regulation is understanding the body central nervous system and understanding the signals of dysregulation before they get to a point that your body starts breaking down.

Right? Or you feel the need to flip a table over because you don't know how to, how to handle your thoughts and your feelings in order to choose a different action. That's what I, that's what I mean. And so, but I, but I think also the misconception within regulation is that it stops at regulation. We regulate and then we're done.[00:10:00] We regulate to repair a rupture. Right. Often. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Courtney: We, we as parents, we, we can choose, uh, connection and co-regulation. That's one of my modules that I, that I teach in this one. Uh, that's the hardest module. That's the goal. That's where the work happens. That's the challenge portion of the work is, do we want to choose connection as the desired outcome and, and use this opportunity to teach once we are regulated.

Regulated doesn't mean calm, excited to talk. Any of those things. Um, so there's a little bit of a misconception, but, but what I also hear is this flip side of it. Well, if, if all we do is we teach our kids to lean into their feelings. And we teach 'em to just process their thoughts like we're creating our own monster, because then kids don't know how to fail.

They don't know how to build resilience, right? If we don't do it the old school way, then kids, [00:11:00] kids are gonna just be soft, right? Whatever. Whatever people's narrative is around that, and I think that is extremely harmful because. Just because we're teaching skills for regulation doesn't mean that we don't also believe very much so in building resilience.

Olivia: Right, right. 

Courtney: Because our kids have to know how to fail and then they have to know how to overcome failure to get stronger. 

Olivia: I think there's something also to be said about, you know, creating humans that really deeply care about the, the experience that other people are having around them. And I just saw a little clip of Jason Reynolds being interviewed on Stephen Colbert and saying, you know what? I'm so sick of hearing that we're raising a generation of soft kids because these are kids that have insane amounts of empathy for others, and it's so true. And so [00:12:00] do we want these hardened individuals that you know are tough and can make it through or push through? I would so much rather have children that are going out into the world with resiliency and wanna take risks and learn from them.

But Courtney, I also really appreciate the idea of regulation being let's check in and be aware of our fear centers 'cause we know darn well once that amygdala is flaring in a child's brain, an adult's brain, they are shut down. There is no talking. There's no learning happening, there's no growth. So then with that said, theory and practice at all levels of a system, how do you attempt to coach district leaders? To coach teachers? To coach other caregivers when it comes to this work? Because I think this work is so much more challenging with [00:13:00] grownups than it is with children. 

Courtney: Yeah, absolutely. I, I, I've always said coaching adults is a lot harder than teaching children. Um, and so I think my approach for that, if I'm being honest, is to really consider universal supports. So I think to me, that is the fastest implication that I have in my toolkit, that I can meet the needs of all of those groups in one foul swoop. And here's what I mean. I'm not saying that I'm trying to oversimplify the process, but what I am saying is that um, if I look in my demo notebook, 'cause of course I still have my demo pages, right, and I, and I still have all my strategies for how I taught, uh, authors’ craft or how I taught envisioning or how I, my strategies for teaching fluency.

We have banks and books and we're rich in strategies of how to teach literacy and math and science, but we don't have that bank when it comes to social, social emotional learning. We don't have that bank when it comes [00:14:00] to adaptability when it comes to resiliency, when it comes to growth-mindedness, we don't have those same tools.

They're kind of like these things that we know are really critical. We call 'em soft skills, which I think is such a disservice to those skills 'cause they're essential and critical. And when we talk about the crisis, to me that is an actionable step that I can take regardless of which group I'm speaking to, because I coach anyone who believes they're a leader in their heart. I coach paraprofessionals. I coach classroom teachers. I coach district leaders. I coach coordinators. I teach all I teach individuals who work in car dealerships. I teach stay at home mamas, and guess what? We're all human. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Courtney: We all have thoughts. We all have feelings, and we all have the ability to choose forward motion or to choose to stay stuck. And so I think [00:15:00] that's my solution, is how do we start to emphasize connection more than how we're living in silos? 'cause we know how we're living in silos. It's red versus blue, it's black versus white, it's this versus that. It's the school versus the parent. Who's at the Mecca, the center of that? The kids.

Olivia: It should be the kids. Always the kids, right? 

Courtney: The kids, yeah. Right. And they're feeling it no matter what's occurring, whether that's a positive relationship that's occurring to meet needs, to make supports, match needs. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Courtney: Whether that's happening or not. The kids are hearing and seeing and feeling that, and then they're building a blueprint for how do they handle challenging situations.

Olivia: So that universal connector, let me just make sure I'm understanding what you're saying. That universal connection, not simplifying it, but just finding more common ground in what we have together in service of kids and the kids. 

Courtney: Absolutely. 

Olivia: And the kids are the center of the conversation. Okay. [00:16:00] 

Courtney: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that, you know, ultimately bridging that gap, um, because right now there is, it, it, it all is centered around this idea of changing our narrative. You said that in my intro. And I go back to that a lot because, uh, our narratives are, the stories that we tell ourself, our stories that we've either inherited from other people or that we've crafted ourself based on our experiences. And if we've had adverse childhood experiences, uh, then there's much more likelihood that that internal narrative is telling us something that may or may not even be true. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Courtney: But what's happening is that when the schools and the systems, for an example, are coming together, the narrative is that the school isn't doing enough or they're not doing it correctly. And then the narrative of the parent is, I'm, I've been advocating for this human being their whole life, and I'll do anything I can to protect them as the best I have. I'm not hiding the best I have at home. [00:17:00] So there's this, there's this protection of these highly skilled professionals coming around the table to make absolutely, I believe, some wonderful decisions and suggestions and considerations on behalf of the child. But if the parent, just like you said, if that amygdala is flared and a and a parent is down in survival, where they're in flight, fight, freeze, or fawn, then what they need to know in that moment is, I'm safe. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Courtney: And when they won't feel safe is when they start to hear all the deficits that their child has or all the disruptions that are happening. Right? And especially if the parent's narrative is already that my child isn't, isn't getting the support that they need. 

Olivia: Right. 

Courtney: Then we're bringing, we're meeting fire with fire. 

Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. What tools would you recommend then to caregivers or leaders? Any resources that you lean on often? 

Courtney: What I, what I have done here is I've compiled [00:18:00] all of the elements of research that would tell me what I could choose to do in those moments or what another outcome. And to me, again, that's universal. So when, when we think about tools, it's how are we pausing in moments that are really challenging? What are we using? What are those? Um, think about anecdotes, right? Or signposts. That we see in the classroom all the time. Like what comes in your brain to, to shift your neuro pathway to say, I wanna make a different decision 'cause I have a different desired outcome now.

Olivia: Yeah, yeah. That pause point. That, that's tremendously helpful. Um, we're gonna wrap part one of our conversation with a lightning round. So, uh, here we go. Are you ready? 

Courtney: I'm ready. 

Olivia: Okay. Question one. What is the biggest myth about neurodivergent students in schools? 

Courtney: Hmm. That they're not capable. [00:19:00] Uh, I think neurodivergent humans are some of the most brilliant, like you said, most empathetic, most intuitive creative humans that I've ever had the pleasure of working with, and I gravitate very much so to other humans with neurodivergent brains. I think the biggest misconception though is that they don't have strengths. And I think that we function, I function as a neurodivergent human when my strengths are noticed and named. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Courtney: And when I can lean into my strengths as, as something that I'm really, really good at, and I have this, this ability to know that I'm not so good at some other things too. And I'm not afraid to say that, uh. Again, because my executive functioning is as it is because of my combined OCD and ADHD. 

Olivia: Next question. What is a red flag alert that a school is not [00:20:00] really well-versed when it comes to neurodivergence? 

Courtney: I think if a school is, is hesitant about leading into the conversation around neurodivergence and systems of support. I think that's a red flag for me. 

Olivia: Okay. 

Courtney: What I've learned is that parents know their children best. Hands down. They know what their children need. Uh, I think, you know, that comes with a caveat, right? Because even though we may know what all children need, it doesn't necessarily mean that within a school system we can a hundred percent meet that need every single time. Um, so there's, there's that ebb and flow there. Um, yeah but I think if, if, if we're willing to listen. And just hear what challenges are we seeing at home. And I think another disconnect about neurodiversity is that individuals present very differently in different environments. 

So where we may see really big behaviors at school, we may not see the same behaviors at home or vice versa. But what the research would [00:21:00] tell us about that is that children are going to use those behaviors as communication when they feel safe and connected enough to be able to do so. So perhaps they feel that safety and connection within the school space where they can show those behaviors. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Courtney: Uh, maybe to indicate a need or, um, at home where they're most connected with family members.

Olivia: That makes sense. All right. We're gonna end the lightning round with this question. You have 60 seconds with our current Secretary of Education. What would you say? 

Courtney: I would say it begins with us as adults, I think would be my very first thing. Everything - our ability to see differently begins with us as adults who we see when we look in the mirror. The the questions we're able to ask and reflect upon internally because when we [00:22:00] have an adult first child-centered perspective and our leaders have adult first child-centered growth mindedness as they're making decisions and they're building their decisional capital. If that can occur, then we can meet the needs of so many more children because we understand ourselves more as adults, and we're able to embed this work throughout the curriculum and make it just a part of our way of being within educational spaces. How do we do those things really intentionally? So I would say, uh, could we consider some things that we could start, stop, and continue. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Courtney: Um, and I say that because I think there's huge areas of opportunity, but we can't continue to have the same end goals that we do and shift what's happening within spaces so I think that's a caveat. 

Olivia: Beautiful. Beautiful. Okay, so we're gonna wrap part one here, [00:23:00] and then I cannot wait to continue part two, where we're going to really create an action plan for caregivers. And you'll offer some tips and, um, insights around data collection and just from your experience as a mom and um, a coach in the educational system. Thank you so much, Courtney. 

Courtney: Thank you. 

Olivia: All right. That's where we'll pause with part one of my conversation with Dr. Courtney Bishop. In part two, we're getting tactical. Courtney shares exactly what data to track before your next IEP meeting. The communication strategies that actually get neurodivergent needs heard and the one professional learning experience every educator desperately needs. Plus she even breaks down the brain state hierarchy that explains why connection always has to come before correction. I'm Olivia Wahl and I cannot wait to see you back for part two with [00:24:00] Dr. Courtney Bishop.