A School in the Jungle With No Walls & Lessons Every Teacher Needs to Hear

In part one of my S5E32 Schoolutions conversation, Dr. Benjamin Freud, Head of Upper School at Green School Bali, challenges conventional beliefs about education. This conversation explores the philosophy of education, questioning whether traditional approaches truly foster learning. We discuss the future of education, focusing on sustainable living and environmental education as pathways to deeper understanding and innovation.

We cover:
→ Why "learning through doing" is not the same as learning and doing, and why that distinction matters for instructional strategies and lesson planning
→ How low engagement and disengaged students aren't behavior problems but design problems
→ Why global citizenship is one of the most dangerous phrases in a school mission statement
→ The difference between regenerative design, sustainability, and what it means for inspiring students and thriving schools
→ The case for philosophy in K–12 as a tool for student participation, critical thought, and whole child development
→ What biomimicry reveals about inclusive classrooms, anti-bias teaching, and a pro-kid mindset that actually scales beyond the jungle

Some Episode Mentions:

• Regenerative Education: Quality Emerges Through Community Voices
• Bruno Latour
• A Thousand Years of Nonlinear History  by Manuel De Landa 
• The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker 
• Coconut Thinking 
• The Bird Lab 

Chapters:
0:00 Introduction — Meet Dr. Benjamin Freud
1:45 From Paris to Bali: Ben's arc into education
3:30 Bruno Latour and the power of assemblages
5:00 Green School Bali — what makes it different
7:00 Learning & doing (not learning through doing)
9:00 Why skills-based education can be dangerous
11:00 Preparing students for an unknown future
13:00 The sixth mass extinction — education's missing priority
15:00 AI, outputs are dead — it's all about inputs now
18:00 The bio collective and what "we" really means
19:30 The Bird Lab — biomimicry for regenerative design
22:00 Why inclusion always involves exclusion
24:30 Lightning round begins
25:00 Why "global citizenship" is a dangerous phrase
26:30 Stop teaching world history — teach global history
27:30 More philosophy in schools
28:30 History should be taught backward
29:30 What's coming in Part 2: rubrics and assessment

🎧 New episodes every Monday & Friday with bite-sized Wednesday reel bonus content.
📧 Connect with me as a thought partner to help you cultivate curious learners who advocate for what they believe in.
🎵 Music: Benjamin Wahl

When coaches, teachers, administrators, and families work hand in hand, it fosters a school atmosphere where everyone is inspired and every student is fully engaged in their learning journey.

Transcript

Olivia: [00:00:00] What if everything you believed about school: grades, standards, global citizenship, even history class was actually getting in the way of real learning? Dr. Benjamin Freud, head of Upper School at Green School Bali joins me for this conversation and I have to warn you, this may make you uncomfortable. I do not expect you to agree with all of Ben's points, but that's just it. Part One and two this week are intended to provoke dialogue and explore fresh thinking about what's possible in our world of education. Here's part one of my conversation with Dr. Benjamin Freud.

This is Schoolutions, the podcast that extends education beyond the classroom. A show that isn't just theory, but practical try-it-tomorrow approaches for educators and caregivers to ensure every student finds their spark [00:01:00] and receives the support they need to thrive. 

I am Olivia Wahl, and I am humbled and honored to welcome Dr. Benjamin Freud to the podcast today. Let me tell you a little bit about Ben. Dr. Benjamin Freud is the head of Upper School and Strategic Lead for Regenerative Education at Green School Bali, where he pioneers the world's first biomimicry for regenerative design curriculum in K-12 education. Ben is a globe spanning educator who brings depth and visionary warmth to the question of how schools can prepare our young people, not just for the future, but for life. 

Ben, I just shared with you that I heard about your work from a colleague and I did a deep dive into Coconut Thinking and the Green School (Bali), and I find your [00:02:00] mission, I find your work so inspiring and so I've tried to craft, um, talking points today for a conversation that will just let the world know about the work you are doing. And I think even in the states, in our public education system, we can use so much of your philosophy to make the world a better place and to teach our kids. So thank you for taking the time to chat. 

Benjamin: Well, thanks for, for having me. I, I, uh, I'm really, uh, feeling special about what you're saying about me. It's very kind, so thank you. 

Olivia: Yeah, absolutely. I start every conversation asking guests for a strand of research or a researcher that inspires their work. Uh, would you share with listeners?

Benjamin: Yeah, no, I mean, uh, it depends on the day, right? Tomorrow, I might give you a different one, but, but the one that really I keep thinking about is a Bruno Latour, uh, and the way he writes, which is such complex ideas, but with such beautiful prose that it's accessible, funny. And really has taught me a lot about, um, about how relationships work in terms of [00:03:00] assemblages and all that kind of real deep stuff that I only get partial understanding of.

Olivia: Uh, what I would say is through reading your blogs and just about all of the work you're doing right now, what inspires me the most and is at the heart of this, is the idea of community. That it's not about us. And that, that's really what I hope our world can center more on is the acts of how our impact has ripple effects in everything we do. I'm fascinated though for you to share a little bit about your background, because I know you grew up in Paris. You have many degrees that you've acquired, and then you are in Bali now. So how did that arc happen? 

Benjamin: I mean, it's, it's, uh, it, it's, it's a long and windy story, but effectively, you know, I, uh, I, I'm French, I moved to the States when I was 15 with my mom who used to work for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Uh, I stayed in the States, did all my studies there. I just love school. I love talking about stuff. I [00:04:00] love thinking about stuff. So, uh, I went the international affairs route, uh, ended up in San Francisco in the late nineties. Where I worked, uh, as a consultant in the internet industry. Back then it was like, like Java? Yeah. Like it was, it was static websites and nothing was going on, but, but I worked with people who were just a bit older than me who were really trying to change the world and they were changing the world, and there was a rebelliousness there that inspired me and layered on top of my already rebellious nature that made me think, you know, we can do whatever we want.

Uh, fast forward continuing consulting dropped that because it was against my, my values, I realized. And then, uh, I, after having kids myself, I realized that I just get more energy outta kids than I do out of most adults, uh, present company accepted. But, um, and, and so I, I just wanted to be back in school and the whole ecological breakdown thing kind of made me think it was, um, after I was probably something we should pay attention to.

Um, and if I was in education, that would my entry point into responding to that. Then I just kind of just started thinking, doing, [00:05:00] messing around with ideas, started really rethinking, uh, why, why we are in relationship with young people at places called school. And then Green School was an opportunity came up and I thought, wow, how can I miss this opportunity to, to really disturb the world, uh, with different, different ways of doing things.

Olivia: Yeah. And I just exploring the Green School website. It is a stunning campus. It's, it's just beautiful. And so take us into a moment when you first arrived and where you're looking at, when you say disturb education, what, what do you see there as possibility that we could borrow from? 

Benjamin: So, the, the, the, the the good and the bad about Green School is that it's a beautiful, you're right. I mean, it's beautiful. It's in the jungle, it's alive. There's no walls. It's made a bamboo. Like it's, it's a gorgeous place. It's a place for learning, and it's a, I mean, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's also [00:06:00] get inspired by, by the materiality here, but I think that the real trick is to take on the pedagogical learning approach, the, the relational learning approach, the approach to the world. And, and take it into urban areas. I mean, they should be able to, to this approach should be able to resonate Oswa in Bangkok or New York City or wherever. So 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Benjamin: It's not just a school in the jungle. It's, it's a way we consider why we learn and how learning is not in itself isolated as something that we collect in a bag or whatever. It's, it's learning is, is through a process and it has a purpose might not necessarily be the right word, but, but it, it, it, it has a trajectory which is contribution to community. And that's human. And other than human. And that's the only reason why we should learn anything. Um, and, and, and everything we do should be about learning. So there's this kind of, uh, co constitutive, uh, process between learning and doing, um, that, that that's what it should be. And, and in [00:07:00] schools, traditional schools, should I say. Because of the way learning is measured, it keeps us individualized and it is about this unilinear progress that doesn't allow for, that doesn't emphasize that community piece. So that, that's, that's where the, the place inspires me because I see spiders and I see snakes and I see other people and I see dogs and I see bamboo all around me now. I just remember I'm in relationship with all of these living things and, and frankly, it's not about me. Just like you said, it's not about me. It's about how we are in relationship. 

Olivia: I wanna go back to something you just said because this was critical in one of my favorite blogs that you wrote. It's the idea of learning and doing, not learning through doing. Will you linger a bit more with that and say more? 

Benjamin: Yeah. No, I, I, I put that ampersand between the two and I kind of connected with no space and, and, and I, and I just want learn. I would just wish learning and doing was like one word I I'm sure in, uh, in, in, in a lot of, uh, non-Western languages I, I think it might be. Um, so, so the idea here is learning [00:08:00] through doing still emphasizes learning. And we, and we, and learning is super important, but, but it, it, it's almost like dur doing comes at the service of, of, of learning. Uh, there's a risk that, that might be even extractive or serving, or I might do something so that I might learn and pad up my CV. I mean, that might be an extreme case, but even like, like just the way we, we learn as, as living things is not. Is by doing and doing is by learning, like the word shouldn't be separated. Mono-cellular organisms learn not because they have consciousness, but because they learn through their interaction with what goes beyond their porous membrane. And they learn through, um, the stimulation that, that they receive. No stimulation, no response, no learning and learning is very simply how our behavior changes through past experiences.

So you can't decouple learning and doing. But so, so there's, there's a real thing there biologically and, you know, ontologically, epistemologically, whatever you wanna say. [00:09:00] But there's also a moral thing there that the learning and the doing should come together like a Mobius strip, right? Like there, there, there, there, that the, the, they're, they're the same thing, just two different words that really should be melted together. 

Um, and, and it also just say, you know, it's not about content acquisition or all that nonsense, it's about what we do with it. Uh, I'll, I'll give you a very quick example, and it's the same thing with the skills. Um, people say, you know, like, all this stuff about competency and mastery-based education, which I think is, is incredibly dangerous, incredibly subversive, and incredibly elitist it talks about communication, collaboration, critical thinking, uh, creativity. But some of the most murderous regimes of the 20th century were fantastic communicators, great collaborators, tremendously creative. And yes, they were critical thinkers. So it's not just about the skills and the knowledge is how you apply, how you participate in the world and what comes out through that, because they are means not ends.

And that's what education gets [00:10:00] completely wrong. About, about the process of learning and why it should be process of learning and doing, or, you know what I mean? It should be that, that, that co constitution. 

Olivia: So something else that I just continue to go back to, um, I was just rereading the Art of Gathering, uh, by Priya Parker and thinking about how we invite children into the learning experience and even prime – and get them excited and, and anticipating what is coming their way. And I was working with teachers in the middle school today and in the science classroom, the teacher was talking about-she's going to be studying the phases of the moon with her kids. And she said a month before they're going to do that study, she wants them to, every night look at the phases of the moon and start to document that work.

And then when they come together, they'll study the why behind those phases. I talked to her about that is such a beautiful [00:11:00] way to build excitement, anticipation, and then get to the why. And she shared she was a learner that really struggled in school and had volumes of information dumped into her, like an empty vessel, but never understood the why and how that had an impact on the outside world or the community at large. So I, I really believe that everything you are saying, you're, you're on to something in a bigger way than what we think education and schools are. Uh, you also, I wanna read your words because it struck me, um, that we are living between the fourth industrial revolution and the sixth mass extinction. So, you know, you just shared what it means to educate kids for a world that we don't even know what it's going to look like in the future, but how are you doing that at the Green School? 

Benjamin: Yeah. No, uh, it's a process. We certainly [00:12:00] haven't got it completely right, and I don't think we ever will get it completely right because, um, that would mean that we're done. Uh, and that goes against this idea that really where we need to be right now is in, um, preparing all of us, not just young people. Like there's something incredibly, uh gross about adults thinking that they prepare young people. Like we all need to be prepared together as learners of different ages. Uh, but, but for adaptability, the, the, the, the, the living world is all about adaptability. I'm looking at this plant outside. Uh, it grows not based, not only based on on what it's in, in its DNA, but also it adapts to its conditions, uh, sun, water, whatever.

The fact that, uh, you know, tree tops, that the leaves never touch. Like how do the trees know where the other tree is to grow in certain ways? Like it's wild, but, but it does, and it's all about adaptability. Um, so the fourth industrial revolution, I mean, that used to be like the Internet of things and I guess we could talk about AI or whatever that, that is, it really doesn't matter. Uh, in many ways it's, it's, [00:13:00] it's the same concept. And, and the sixth mass extinction is, is is something we seldom talk about. You know, we talk about climate change, we talk about um, which, which is climate breakdown. By the way. Climate change is such a euphemism because we wanna preserve our, our current level of, uh, of, of, of, of life, right?

Our, our, you know, we want net zero, but let's still produce. If we could still grow and have net zero, yay, that'd be great. Even though that's a contradiction. Um, the, the, the, the trick is that we don't know what's gonna happen in three years. Like a thousand years ago, chances are like 97, 98% of chance we'd be peasants. And your grandfather was a peasant, your grandson will be a peasant. Um, your, you know, so, so we knew what was going on. And now, you know, over the past what, uh, it's been, what, since November 2022, everything's changed drastically. Uh, and, and we don't know what, what's gonna happen after 2030. This magical date that's, that's only a few years away.

We don't know. Uh, you know, the, the, the kids who are [00:14:00] graduating, who are who, who are graduating after 2030, they're in grade seven. Right? Or, or, or whatever it might be. So, so, so, so we don't know what's gonna happen for the kids who are in grade seven and beyond the, the, the kindergartners who are, who are in school now, let's say they're born in 2021. In 2020, they'll be alive in 2125. That's like, those, those, we're not talking about that. So it's mind blowing and, and, and maybe even longer because with, you know, with, with, with the changes in bio technologies and with, uh. All of these things, these cyborgs were gonna become even more so. Um, we just don't know.

So, so we, we need to think about adaptability here. We need to think about what it means to be able to respond to the rapidly changing environment and to stop thinking that we're preparing kids for a future, not just that we don't know. That sounds like a tired trope, but one that we do know, the certainty that we have is that we, that is, that it's gonna go really, really [00:15:00] fast. And so that takes away any kind of, um, re that, that, that, that really takes away the, the entire notion of having these unlinear paths. 

And one thing I've been thinking about is like even the idea of, of, of the way that we are measuring learning, assessing learning in terms of production. Is a huge, like, we're done with that. You know, it's not just that the essay is dead, is anything that we put out is dead. You know, we, we can't measure learning or education through output of kids because AI can do it so much better and because AI is always doing it and because we can no longer individualize, not that we ever could, like there's this whole dream that we could individualize, but production is cheap. It is the cheapest thing in the ecosystem. It means nothing. Now I can do beautiful presentations in, in, in a few clicks. So now what matters is the [00:16:00] input, is the ability to discern stuff, all the noise that's out there. So, so we've reversed that. 

And so that's where the adaptability is, is how do I respond to the inputs that I'm receiving in ways that make sense for our community? It's no longer about outputs, it's about inputs. And that's a fundamental seismic shift that we're having. And because we're still having garbage conversations about AI, about like, should we make sure that we don't cheat? Or how might we like upskill kits to use AI, we're still missing the entire point. And nevermind. Sorry, sorry. Just, just really quickly. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Benjamin: And, and, and this takes us to the six Indus. Six mass extinction. 

Olivia: Yes. 

Benjamin: Billions of animals. Plants are dying, like, let's call this out, like thousands are at risk of being extinct. What are we doing here? Like, like biodiversity and, and the threats should be the number one core priority in every [00:17:00] education. Not tech literacy, not math literacy. Those need to be put to the service of, of, of our, of our, of our non-human kin. Because otherwise, we're just shifting how we learn and why we learn to feed the capitalist machine, to make sure that we can continue growth, that kids find jobs that this succeed in the job market. And if we don't make it so that everything is about kin-making, about responding to ecological breakdown, that that the what's going on, we're just doing the same and pretending that it's that, it's that it's big change. Um, yeah. 

Olivia: I am experiencing this as a mom right now of a student that is a freshman in college and thinking of the future, and there are many conversations around jobs and the the bigger world at large. And so everything you're saying is, is striking a chord, [00:18:00] not just for me and as an educator, but also as a parent to try to reconcile. Uh, you know, my younger son is that 2030 generation of graduating, and so there are knowns that we can harness. But I want to also think about, um, that idea of a bio collective. Because there's something really beautiful with that. And you also founded the Bird Lab. 

Benjamin: Mm-hmm. 

Olivia: Um, and so I'd love for you to share just a, a vision, paint a picture for us of what that, that project or that lab looks and feels like with the idea of the bio collective. 

Benjamin: Sure. Uh, and, and you know, I, I'm not naive enough to think that we're all going to be like having number one priority to save like the lizards and things like that, because I know that as humans, our, our family matters and we want our kids to do well. So that, that's, that's clearly there. But, but what it means to do well isn't just about what is it like, what does success means in school? It means what do we need to [00:19:00] do well and who is we in this? And that's very important. Yes. We always talk about, we, we never define who is we. We never decide who is we. 

Um, so, so the notion of a bio collective is all living things that have a common interest in the healthfulness of the planet. That's it. That's it. All living things. Sometimes there might be different conditions. Invasive species might have a different like, sense of what's good for this particular place than, than what wasn't quite there before. But ultimately, healthfulness of the plant, um, the, the, the bird lab, which is, uh, biomimicry, uh, for regenerative design, um, is not just a lab. It's a, it's a space for learning. And, uh, and uh, and, and, and, you know, uh, just a, an approach to, to considering how we might design, um things, be it, products, solutions, whatever words you wanna use for that in, in ways that are, that are regenerative.

Now there's a couple issues with what I just said. One is, what is regenerative? Uh, because that's a word that's being co-opted and people are saying it's about like healing and making things, you know, better than that you left before. But it's not [00:20:00] about that. That is, uh, that that's poetic and, and anesthetizing. Um, but, but it's, it's, it's really about doing really kind of what we're already doing, but just thinking about it in, in different ways from a different approach. So, so I, it's not that weird is my point. So let me just go on these two and, and, and bring them together. 

Regeneration is not about healing because that assumes that there's something that we need to heal and bring it back too. That, that sees the world as static that we need to repair. That's a very solutions-oriented, um, uh, belief, uh, that, that's masquerading in terms of like you know, like, let's hold hands and, and, and, and things like that. And, and I'm sorry if I'm insulting people or if they feel bad, I'm just being deliberately provocative in order to stir the pot. Okay? So yes, so please, please know that, that that's the case. Um, but regeneration is about like circulation of life. Like it, like life needs death. Like we talk about composting. It needs death and it needs to have cycles, and there needs to be a [00:21:00] winter and a summer and, and, and it's about circulation and it's never static. So It's about, regeneration, is about how might we do things like nature does things. Giles Hudson, um, says, says a lot about this. How might we do things like, like, like nature does things and, and that means creating, um, uh, not static, but creating like some kind of, uh, those, those relationships that, that may or may not be symbiotic. But, but we think around those terms. 

But, but going forward here, in terms of what that means, in terms of design, if, if I take this phone that I'm showing here. Um, design thinking focuses on the user, and, and, and it might say that it's reader, but they focus on the user and how they use the phone. But regenerative design takes into consideration the voices of the entire community, human and other than human. So it's not just about the phone, it's about for the user, it's about what might the coconut tree think of the phone? What might the crow think of the phone? What might the river think of the phone? What might a kid a hundred years from now think of the phone [00:22:00] because it has impacted? What might the miners who are going into the earth and digging up, you know, the, these rare earths and minerals think of the phone? So it's considering different voices and knowing that it can't get it perfect and good for everyone, but just even bringing them to the table, bringing them to in conversation and knowing full well, because this is the key that inclusion also means exclusion. 'cause you have to draw the boundaries to bring people in, and people have to leave things at the door. So we know that we're complicit. We know we can't get it perfectly right, but we consider it from a different point of view beyond the user. Beyond the human and beyond where we are in time. Thinking about past and future. 

Olivia: Can you say more about what you just said? Inclusion also involves exclusion. 

Benjamin: Yeah. I mean inclusion. So if, like, what does it mean to include someone? What does it mean? Uh, like this is, you know, I'm gonna get myself in trouble here, but, but the idea of [00:23:00] inclusion is to bring people in, but in order to join the party, what do they have to leave at the door? 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Benjamin: Like even if it's just about the fact that to be included, you have to speak a common language, which means you have to leave your language behind, even if it's about the fact that you're including them, let's say, in a space. That means that you're drawing borders around that space. And I mean it metaphorically as well as literally, which means stuff has to be left out, which means that inclusion means come here, but, but stuff has to be not here. We're drawing borders, we're drawing. To include something inside means there's an outside and that might be drawn in different ways. So we can't be naive to think that inclusion is like, yeah, let's bring everybody there. 

Olivia: Kumbaya

Benjamin: That's not the case. Yeah. It's not, it's not the case. And, and more to the point, and this is again, I'm being provocative on this one, is the fact that oftentimes inclusion is just a way to, to have one, um, to have one narrative still be dominant, right?

Olivia: Yeah. 

Benjamin: Um, [00:24:00] one that preserves certain hierarchies. 

Olivia: So I, the reason I really wanted you as a guest on the podcast is because I know you're provocative. I know that some of your thinking may push people to really feel uncomfortable, and I, I like to feel uncomfortable because it helps me know what I believe to be true at the core of my being. And also it helps me shift sometimes and say, wait a second here, that that is very interesting. So I think in the world of podcasting, if we only have guests on our shows that think the way we do or that have the exact same value set, we're really missing out on learning and innovating.

So you don't, you don't even need to give the disclaimer that you're being provocative because I, I knew when I asked you to be a guest exactly, um, what I was asking [00:25:00] for. And I think that you have some very fascinating ways of interpreting what's happening in the world that I find, um, just, I don't know it's really pushing my thinking. And so if I ask you to speak more to something, it's just because I wanna hear your explanation for the why behind it, and I appreciate it for you indulging me, and I think listeners will too. Um, I want to pause part one with a lightning round and I have a feeling your gut responses will be right there for these questions. Um, the first question is, what do you think the most dangerous phrase in a school's mission statement is? 

Benjamin: Global citizenship. It globalizes. 

Olivia: Why?

Benjamin: It Globalizes, uh, it promotes, uh, and, uh, embraces a certain form of elitism. It takes us away from place, which is in the local. And the citizenship piece is again, uh, a dominant narrative piece [00:26:00] that, you know, links us to cities and certain ways of universalism. And, uh, it means absolutely nothing. What does it mean to be a global citizen? Um, and it disrespects those who don't even think global. Very quickly, my wife knows people who live in Birmingham in the uk, an hour and 20 minutes by train to London. They've never been to London. Stop talking to me about global citizenship when we have people in the UK who actually are very, very much embedded in their own place for financial and cultural reasons.

Olivia: Hmm. Interesting. Okay. What's a subject that is being taught in school that should be stopped being taught? 

Benjamin: Uh uh my PhD's in history and I'm gonna say world history, stop teaching world history. 

Olivia: Why?

Benjamin: Nobody, because nobody in university learns about world history for the last 25 years. It's all about global history, which is completely different because it takes away, uh, the, the narrative of the state. It takes away, uh, who gets to curate what matters. [00:27:00] Uh, it's boring for a lot of kids, like history is so, incre…history means inquiry. It doesn't mean telling, you know, giving a bunch of facts, like it literally means history. Uh, sorry, inquiry. Um, and, and you know, who gets to pick and choose and typically, world history curricula are just meant to reinforce patriotism and, uh, you know, subservience to the state. Let's talk about global history, the history of germs, transportation. It's thematic. People are already doing it. Just call it out and stop teaching world history. 

Olivia: All right. What's a subject that is not being taught that should be taught more? 

Benjamin: You know, that's a tough one. And, and, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna cheat on this one because it is being taught in many places and, and that's philosophy. Uh, I think that by, by allowing us to grapple with some philosophical issues and, and understand logic and ethics and things like that, I think, uh, it'd be a lot more fun for students. Uh, it would push them. And um, that's being done in a lot of places. But I think we should do more. And I'm not talking theory of knowledge philosophy. I'm [00:28:00] talking about like. Other kinds of philosophy. I think that's super important. 

Olivia: It, it's fascinating. I digress. But it, I was just in another science classroom this week and um, a colleague who's a coach was, they're studying sound waves. And they created instruments and were testing out all the different, and they got into a conversation of how did people even start to think about sound waves years and years and years ago. And when they did some inquiry work, they discovered that it was philosophers of so long ago that it, that just had that capability to be really curious and to study. So going back to the roots and the kids were fascinated by that. But it is about inquiry and it is about carving space for kids to ask questions and to have those questions honored. So, um, 

Benjamin: There we go. Love it. Yeah. And, and so really quickly, I think if we did teach history, it needs to go backwards rather than going, you know, 15th century 16th, it needs to go [00:29:00] 21st and then go backwards. Yes, exactly. For what you're saying, just to unravel it. 

Olivia: Yes. And the kids were so into it, it was amazing. Mm-hmm. Um, what's the last thing you read that really pushed your thinking? 

Benjamin: Yeah, so that, that's, uh, I, I read a lot of different things, uh, but, um, I think, I think that, uh, Manuel De Landa a Nonlinear, uh, History of the World, I'm probably getting the title wrong, but, but it was really powerful. Uh, De Landa a Nonlinear History was, it was just mind blowing in terms of, of his approach to understanding where history, like what it means, uh, to have thickness and thinness there. Superb book and very accessible. 

Olivia: Alright, I will tuck a link to that in the show notes. We'll get the title and all of that goodness. 

Benjamin: Mm-hmm. 

Olivia: Um, this is going to, um, end part one and we will jump into part two. What I, I want to pick up a thread that you dropped, um, in this conversation around assessment. And I am really interested to hear more about, um all of the [00:30:00] world of assessment that we live, especially in the States with Google Drive and projects. 

Benjamin: Mm-hmm. 

Olivia: Just sitting in the drive endlessly. 

Benjamin: Yeah. 

Olivia: And to hear more about rubrics and why you do not believe in rubrics and what we could do differently. Um, so thank you, Ben. 

Benjamin: Yeah. 

Olivia: That is a wrap on part one with a brilliant and provocative Dr. Benjamin Freud from Green School Bali. We covered the arc from Paris to Bali, the difference between learning and doing versus learning through doing, and why global citizenship might be a dangerous phrase in a school's mission statement. 

I'm going to sit with this question and I am asking you to do the same. Who is the we in our classrooms or school communities? And who or what has been left out of that definition? Share your reflection with me. Let me know. You can email me at schoolutionspodcast@gmail.com or comment on the social [00:31:00] posts. 

Make sure to visit Dr. Freud's work at Green School Bali and learn more about him at his bio page. Share this episode if it was intriguing to you, and make sure to come back Friday because in part two, we're going inside the Bird Lab and asking what education looks like when it finally stops trying to be regenerative and just is. See you then.