Why Civics Knowledge Doesn't Necessarily Lead to Civic Participation

In part two of my S5E33 Schoolutions  conversation, Colleen O'Brien, Ed.D., reveals what decades of research and classroom teaching experience taught her: the gap between civic knowledge and civic participation isn't apathy, it's confidence.

Colleen and I explore:
🔹 Why low engagement in civic life is really a confidence problem, not an apathy problem
🔹 What inclusive teaching and nonpartisan facilitation actually look like in practice
🔹 How student participation in structured discussion prepares kids for real-world advocacy
🔹 The role of instructional leadership and school culture in making civics education consistent and high quality

💫Make sure to watch Part 1 & Some Episode Mentions:

• Civics for Colorado 
• Colorado Youth Advisory Council 
• Center for Civic Education
• iCivics  
• Bill of Rights Institute 
• Street Law 
• Common Cause 
• "This I Believe" 
• More Information & Upcoming Events from Colleen

Chapters
0:00 – Welcome Back & Part 2 Overview
1:45 – Civic Knowledge vs. Civic Behavior: What's the Difference?
4:00 – Civics Education Then vs. Now: What's Changed?
6:20 – The Real Reason People Don't Participate (It's Not Apathy)
7:45 – Building the Bridge: From Understanding Democracy to Showing Up
9:00 – Training Facilitators & Reading the Room
10:45 – How to Model Nonpartisanship When Everything Feels Partisan
12:30 – Teaching Values vs. Teaching Partisanship
14:00 – Where Is Civics Education Headed?
15:30 – What This Journey Taught Colleen About Herself
16:00 – National Resources for Educators Everywhere
17:00 – Closing Takeaways

Next week: What happens when a teacher truly believes in a child? Not just says it, but proves it? Muriel Summers, co-creator of Leader in Me and co-author of Teacher Believed in Me, reveals why entrusting kids with real responsibility is the most powerful thing an adult can do and why holding back might be the most dangerous. You don't want to miss it.

When coaches, teachers, administrators, and families work hand in hand, it fosters a school atmosphere where everyone is inspired and every student is fully engaged in their learning journey.

Transcript

Olivia: [00:00:00] Welcome back listeners. If you have not listened to my Part One conversation with Colleen O'Brien, pause this episode. Listen to part one and then come back to this conversation. We left part one with a question quietly hanging in the air, knowing how democracy works and actually showing up for it…What is the bridge between those two things? In part two, Colleen O'Brien answers it. We're talking civic confidence as a lifelong practice. How to model nonpartisanship when everything feels partisan and why? The most radical thing a teacher or caregiver can do is simply make space for every voice in the room.

This is Schoolutions, the podcast that extends education beyond the classroom. A show that isn't just theory, but practical try-it-tomorrow approaches for educators and caregivers to ensure every student finds their spark and receives the [00:01:00] support they need to thrive. Welcome back listeners to part two of my conversation with Colleen O'Brien. If you have not listened to part one, pause this episode. Go back, listen, and then join us for this conversation. 

Colleen, in part one, you did a beautiful job illuminating why we need civics education right now. Um, I would say more than ever, but it's always been needed. Um, it's also very exciting for me to hear actual research that says 90% of our students do want to participate. Uh, and the thread I'm going to keep pulling through to this conversation is the idea of confidence that we need to ensure our students have many, many experiences to become more confident members of society and exercise their civic rights.

With that said, I think part two, I'm hoping it can focus more on civics as a lifelong practice. [00:02:00] And it can balance the, the bridge between caregivers and our ownership of civics and how we participate in democracy, and then how that also models behavior for our students. So can you start us off by describing the difference between civic knowledge and civic behavior?

Colleen: Yeah. So civic knowledge, um, is more content knowledge about the mechanics of how our government works in general. It's a framework because, um, and it's a, a flexible framework. Our constitution is, is a framework, and we have the three branches and they have checks and balances on each other. Types of participation. You need to know some of that knowledge. Last time in the lightning round, you asked me what people don't understand enough about. And I said, federalism, that there are [00:03:00] shared powers between local, state, and national government. 

And so, um, you can't be, you can't go to a city council meeting really and effectively, um, file a complaint or have a solution for a school. Um, because it's not the same shared. I mean, there's some shared powers, but not many. And so understanding some of those structures, some of that content knowledge is really important so that you can actively participate. Uh, you know, people would need to know before they go to the voting booth or go, uh, uh, a ballot, a mail-in ballot to, um, vote to retain judges. They would have to understand the mechanics in Colorado anyway, at the national level. 

We keep judges for life, but in Colorado. You, um, have to retain them every certain amount of years, um, and, uh, depending on their levels of their office. So knowing those [00:04:00] mechanics and that content knowledge is really important so that when you take those actions, you know, um, why you are voting on judges in Colorado rather than on the Supreme Court. So it's both. 

Olivia: Yeah, that's helpful. And then what does civics participation education look like now versus 20 years ago then? 

Colleen: Well, I think that something has been added to civic participation since 20 years ago is there, there are more online forums. I think we all got a little more, um, connected online through, um, the pandemic that happened and people are a little more, um, able to participate online.

And it takes a, a great facilitator online to engage everybody in the room, just like it takes a great facilitator in person to make sure everybody's voice is heard. [00:05:00] Um, so I think that is the biggest difference, is the fact that, um, we've incorporated more online, more technology. I think that a, a lot of people might say there's so much information out there, but I think 20 years ago there was too, um, you know, 30 years ago, no, you know, with the internet and, and we have always though, in civic education for decades, uh, since the late 1900s when I started teaching, um, we have always done media, media literacy, um, and there's probably just more media channels and more algorithms that, um, pigeonhole us into one sort of, um, political ideology because we get feeds on our, on our internet and on our, um, Instagrams and that sort of thing that show us who we, you know, just one type of, [00:06:00] uh, political ideology.

So that has changed quite a bit as well. But I would say that even 30 years ago, we really spent a lot of time with students talking about what's a reliable source. Um, I, I only think there are a lot more sources now. I still think we had issues with reliable sources 20 years ago. Um, so that, that's another big piece.

And I wanna go back to, um, a piece of research that has guided my practice gosh, since 2000, 'cause I think the study came out in 2000, um, national study of why people don't participate. And, um, it was from, uh, Common Cause. It was a national, I don't remember the sample size or anything like that, but it was large. And they said, um, it's, people don't participate because they don't have confidence in their reading, writing, and speaking skills to talk to decision makers.

So a lot of people think it's apathy, but [00:07:00] instead it's scary for people to go to a community meeting and raise their voice in front of their neighbors. And so it's all that practicing things that we can do in K-12 education that give people confidence. And so any classroom in um, K-12, and I would argue also in higher ed, I've taught higher ed before. There has to be a component. Of, um, learning content knowledge, but there must be a component of talking through content knowledge, having a conversation with someone about, okay, what, why, why wouldn't you, you know, looking at scenarios, why wouldn't you complain about a superintendent at a city council meeting? Right? Like, there's just all these levels of governments and that sort of thing, so you need both. 

Olivia: Yeah. And, and then, so let's take that a little bit farther. How do we build, um, the bridge between someone understanding how democracy works versus showing up for it? How [00:08:00] do we take them that step further? You're talking about building confidence and so that they feel more comfortable. Is it just their practice or are there more strategic ways?

Colleen: Practice and experience at a young age? Um, in the last session I talked about sending my students to voting booths with at the voting machines that run my building, um, you have to have both. So building that bridge is, um, about people practicing. I, I think you're right. And I, I always go back to K-12, um, education and making sure there's a balance of content, knowledge and content talking and discussion and reading, writing, and speaking. 

But I also think there's a market in civics for college civics for Colorado two or three years from now our board, um, is uh, really we are considering our three year vision is really helping community [00:09:00] facilitators know how to lead, uh, a, facilitate a meeting and include every voice. So, um, as a private citizen, I was always asked to facilitate our caucuses in Colorado, in my local area. And because of my experience in education, I knew how to bring in everybody's voice. I knew how to check in with people. I, I knew how to read faces and people were in the back and didn't feel comfortable coming in the front. I knew, oh, this person can't come in this room because, um, there's some, a ADA issues. And so I, I knew to work through those and that was just because of my background in education.

I imagine other people in other industries, healthcare, whatever, would do the same. But I do think that there is, um, you know, as teachers, we need to be trained to facilitate conversations in our classroom. But as a caucus leader, I didn't go through any training. I just got thrown in the room, you know? Yeah. And said, Hey, lead these, leave these 60 people and ask them how they [00:10:00] wanna vote on these, um, issues. 

Olivia: So then thinking of participating thoughtfully and effectively, you really have to read the room. You have to watch people, you have to be. Listening to the vibe in the conversation, and then ensure that you're seeing people's physical reactions as well, placement in the space, how they're using their body. So it's just watching so many nuances. How can we model, let's go back to practice, because then how can we show up for our kids with that nonpartisan lens with when everything feels partisan? How can we model that? How can we do that for our kids? 

Colleen: So I think I know that, um, you need to start with values and values can be kind of tricky or whatever, but, and I, I don't mean that tongue in cheek, but sometimes it's a charged word. Um, I think [00:11:00] we have to share kids what our values are in civic education. And let me give an example. Um, those values are not partisan. One of my values is that everybody gets to offer a perspective that's a value, and I'm transparent about that. Um, I haven't been in the classroom in a long time, but I always started with these statements that I took from, um, NPR there was a program they had called this, I believe, and why I started with this, I believe, and I had students do there this I believe, statements and I was really clear on my civic values. And again, it has nothing to do with partisan. It means that we are richer and everybody in the room offers a perspective, we get smarter. That was one, um, that uh, you have a lot of different sources and you have to be very clear on what you're reliable, why, why you think a source is reliable. 

Olivia, you might think one source is reliable and I would say I would never go to that source, but we have to understand why. Um, we go to the [00:12:00] sources and be able to articulate what those sources are. When I was teaching it was, um, you know, like news, different newspaper sources, but now there's all sorts of, you know, information that students get on everything from TikTok to, um, Instagram, to uh, you know, to their neighbor. And so being really clear on sources. So your question was something, it was about bridging practice and I think.

One of the first things that we have to get really clear on, and it takes a while, is what are our civic values? And again, has nothing to do with partisanship in my, someone might disagree on that. Um, and I, I think that one of the ways that I, um, discern and my, my classroom was always nonpartisan, but one of the ways that I discern politicians is what do they say their values are and then how do their practices match up to their values? And, um. You know, if there's a politician who [00:13:00] says what their values are and then takes actions on them, um, that way, you know, that builds trust. But if someone, um, says they have these values and don't take action based on them, then that erodes trust, which is a critical component of our democracy because we vote for who we trust.

Olivia: Yeah. We vote for who we trust. Uh, so then let's end the conversation. I wanna think about. genuine innovation. What are you excited about? Where do you see Civics for Colorado five years from now? 

Colleen: Yeah. Um, Civics for Colorado, five years from now, we'll have a pretty, we'll have a, um, our ultimate goal is that students, like our COYAC students that I talked about in the last session, who are our students who advise our state legislature, every one of 'em says, yeah, I've had high quality, um, civics education in my classroom. So that's what I'd like to see. Training [00:14:00] in Colorado anyway for civics teachers is super inconsistent and it's up to the school district and some do a ton and some do not um, and um, so I know that I benefited from really high quality training and we define what high quality training is in our documents. Um, so our job is to at Civics for Colorado as a board of volunteers and we're all just volunteers, is to really, um, help vet, um, what are some high-quality civics programs based on our criteria. And then, um, we actually are having a session coming up in August where we are gonna help organizations to align their practices for teachers more to, um, those high quality civics, uh, practices.

Olivia: Amazing. I'll make sure to, uh, put that in the show notes as well. Um. What has this journey taught you about yourself? 

Colleen: I don't have all the right answers, so I need to listen to other [00:15:00] people. Uh, there's room for a lot of perspectives. Uh, there has always, always, in our country, been civil discourse and discord and disagreements. Um, always, uh, and you read the Federalist Papers and anti-Federalist papers and you could find that out from our early, early beginnings. Um, so we shouldn't be afraid of people disagreeing. Um, we should expect that and then figure out how to move to a new place, bridge that gap. 

Can I just say one other thing because I know you have a, of course, um, audience around the country. Um, Center for Civic Education, iCivics, u m, Bill of Rights Institute, street Law, all of these organizations that we basically are a clearing house for, um, have people in every state that can be helpful. So we talk specifically about Colorado, but these are national [00:16:00] programs. Um, and some have state affiliates like civics for Colorado that you can go to. Um, some do, some don't. We're a, we're a, um. Very passionate band of volunteers around the country. So it, it can volunteers, sometimes it can be inconsistent in certain states, but, um, just because people are not listening from Colorado, um, there are many opportunities with these same programs across the country.

Olivia: Yeah. Thanks for letting us know. 

Colleen: Yeah. 

Olivia: Let's end on that note. Thank you for the work you're doing. Thank you for everyone at Civics for Colorado and the work they are doing on behalf of our students. And I'm really grateful there are so many students that are actively involved. Uh, I can't wait to have this episode come out and I, I hope there's this beautiful ripple effect with participation and people reaching out as well to take this on wherever they are, all over the world. So thank you Colleen, so much. 

Colleen: All right. [00:17:00] Great to see you. Take good care. 

Olivia: Bye. I've learned so much from Colleen getting to know her over the last few months, and my biggest takeaway is that disagreement isn't democracy's weakness. It's always been part of its design, and that what really matters is that we have to have the knowledge, the confidence, and the practice to move through it well, and that work needs to start with our young people. If you want to go deeper, check the show notes. I put links to the Center for Civic Education, iCivics, the Bill of Rights Institute and Street Law, all national organizations with resources for educators and caregivers no matter where you live. And if you're in Colorado, look into Civics for Colorado and their August Institute for Organizations aligning to high-quality civics practices. This work is happening and you can be part of it. 

Next week on Schoolutions, we ask a really important question: [00:18:00] What happens when a teacher or a parent truly believes in a child, not just says it, but proves it? Muriel Summers, co-creator of Leader in Me and co-author of Teacher Believed in Me, reveals why entrusting kids with real responsibility is the most powerful thing an adult can do. And why holding back might be the most dangerous. You don't wanna miss it. Schoolutions podcast is created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Thank you to my older son Benjamin, who created the music playing in the background. You can follow and listen to Schoolutions wherever you get your podcasts or subscribe to never miss an episode and watch on YouTube. Thank you to my guest, Colleen O'Brien, for reminding us that disagreement isn't democracy's weakness, it's always been part of its design. And reach out to me @oliviawahl.com if you'd like a thought partner to help you cultivate [00:19:00] curious learners who advocate for what they believe in.

Don't forget to tune in every Monday and Friday for part one and two of my guest conversations with the best evidence-based, classroom ready strategies that you can apply right away to better the lives of the children in your care. Your 60 second bite-sized piece of learning from the conversation will be waiting for you on Wednesdays to share with a colleague. Take care and thank you for forever getting better with me. See you next week.