Growing Through Discomfort: Why the Best Teachers Step Away

In part two of my S5E34 Schoolutions conversation, Muriel Summers of Leader in Me explores the balance in education and parenting between fostering student independence and providing necessary guidance, drawing from Muriel's extensive teaching experience. Discover practical classroom strategies and teaching tips for educators aiming to cultivate confident, self-directed learners.

What does it truly mean to empower a student, and where exactly is the line between stepping back and disappearing? In Part 2 of this conversation, educator and author Muriel Summers (co-author of Teacher Believed in Me with Dr. David K. Hatch) shares the wisdom of four decades in classrooms around the world.

Whether you're a classroom teacher, instructional coach, school administrator, or caregiver, this episode delivers practical, try-it-tomorrow strategies around:
✦ Building student confidence through authentic success
✦ Scaffolding: when to add support and when to pull back
✦ Why growth lives inside discomfort (and what our job really is)
✦ Global patterns in student engagement and student participation
✦ How school culture and school leadership shape whether children feel heard

💫Make sure to watch Part 1 & check out some of the resources mentioned:

• Teacher Believed in Me
• The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People 
• Leader in Me & movement

Chapters:
0:00  Introduction & recap of Part 1
1:45  What "empower" really means — Dr. Stephen Covey's definition
3:30  Letting children taste success & leadership
6:00  Empowering vs. fading into the background — where's the line?
7:00  The swimming lesson story — confidence in action
9:00  Art shows, systems & messages that build or break confidence
10:00 Scaffolding: when to put it up & when to take it down
11:20 Public speaking, podiums & never letting kids leave the stage feeling unsuccessful
14:30 Training wheels, discomfort & the dip where growth lives
15:20 Middle school, homework & handing off responsibility
17:00 Why discomfort is non-negotiable for growth
18:30 Fertilizing the soil — the parent & educator's true role
19:30 Global trends in student responsibility & voice
22:00 What Muriel witnessed in India, Romania & around the world
25:00 Heart prints — Muriel's legacy message
26:30 Three key takeaways from Part 2

🎧 New episodes every Monday & Friday with bite-sized Wednesday reel bonus content.
📧 Connect with me if you’d like a thought partner to help you cultivate curious learners who advocate for what they believe in.
🎵 Music: Benjamin Wahl

Next week's episode takes things somewhere unexpected. David Price with @ScienceMadeSimpleUK has taken science busking to 26 countries, and in this conversation, he proves exactly why it works. From street corners to Singapore championships, this episode illuminates why STEM is irresistible to any audience, anywhere in the world. 

When coaches, teachers, administrators, and families work hand in hand, it fosters a school atmosphere where everyone is inspired and every student is fully engaged in their learning journey.

Transcript

Olivia: [00:00:00] Welcome back for part two of my conversation with Muriel Summers. If you have not listened to part one, pause this episode. Listen to part one and then come back to this conversation. In part two of our conversation, Muriel and I talk about what it really means to empower a child to own their learning. We also discuss where exactly the line is between empowering and just fading into the background. Muriel shares stories from her time in classrooms around the world, as well as experiences with her own grandchildren, highlighting her extensive wisdom after four decades of doing the work.

This is Schoolutions, the podcast that extends education beyond the classroom. A show that isn't just theory, but practical try-it-tomorrow approaches for educators and caregivers to ensure every student finds their spark and receives the support they need to [00:01:00] thrive. 

Welcome back listeners. This is part two of my conversation with the wonderful Muriel Summers. If you have not listened to part one, pause this episode. Go back and listen. Uh, we speak to chapter four in Muriel's book. I have it right here. It's co-written with Dr. David K. Hatch. Teacher Believed in Me and you know Muriel. We started by talking about what it means to entrust children with responsibility. Now we're going to dip into chapter six, talking about empowering children to own their own learning. 

Almost stepping back even more, um, let's just start with the word empower. Because people either love the word, they use it often, or they may not so much. Um, it has that hierarchical feeling. So, you know, why did you choose with Dr. Hatch to stick with the word empower? What does that mean to you? 

Muriel: Well, you know, I think [00:02:00] based, certainly based on the work that Dr. Hatch and I have done, um. In the name of Stephen Covey's work of The 7 Habits, empowering also means to unleash greatness. Um, you, you see the greatness within someone. And sometimes, uh, having, you know, his definition of leadership is communicating someone's worth and potential so clearly that they are inspired to see it in themselves. And I love that definition because it says so much, um, seeing someone's greatness communicating that, helping to provide opportunities that empower a student to realize their greatness, um, and helping them to see that, to feel [00:03:00] that is really, I think, the essence of what we hope that word really means to the people who read it and to our students. 

We want to not really give them our power. We give up our power to empower them. I mean, I think great teachers are always looking for opportunities to give children opportunities that help them taste success. 

Olivia: Yes. 

Muriel: That help them taste leadership. What does it mean to truly be a leader? You just did this. And because you did that look at what happened, sort of a stimulus and response kind of thing that draws a child in to say, wow, that I did do that. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Muriel: Uh, I was given that opportunity. Um, we had a. Um, an event every year, if you will, several to give [00:04:00] children an authentic, real-world opportunity to practice leadership. And we invited people in from all over and it became, um, uh, quite well known to the point that we couldn't host everyone who wanted to come and see our children really in action. And the moment they tasted success that they stood up and they delivered, whether it was singing or showcasing their art or playing the piano, whatever their gifts and talents were that they shared with us, we in turn shared it with other people. You could see a child grow right before your eyes. 

Olivia: Yes. 

Muriel: And the moment they could taste what it felt like to be clapped for. To be told, wonderful job. You know, it goes with that empower. That's what I'd like for people to think that this word me [00:05:00] means is, is giving them the opportunity, the power, if you will, to taste that success, to feel what it's like. And when they had that visceral feeling of, boy, I just did something incredible. People told me I did something well. I felt that I did something well, you never can turn back. You want more of that. You want more of that. Yeah. 

Olivia: Yeah. I would say too, the reason, um, I wanted your interview to be released. It's going to come out in a month of where I'm, I'm talking about cultivating confidence. And I see a beautiful symmetry, a parallel between, um, success, believing in yourself, your self-worth, and being a confident person in the world. Um, another guest I have, um, this month is speaking to the idea of apathy and in civics, in [00:06:00] particular civics, um, engagement. 

But it's that idea I really believe that everyone wants to participate, but they don't feel comfy participating if they don't feel confident necessarily. So I see the work you're doing also as building confidence. Lots of practice. Um, the one thing I'd also say is there are caregivers out there that say, oh, you know. I, I don't know. It it, there's a big difference between empowering children to own their own learning and stepping so far back that you're just not involved. So how do you discern between those two lenses for caregivers and teachers? 

Muriel: You know, it's, it's fascinating. I'm a grandmother, uh, of two granddaughters and I have watched my daughter very masterfully, and I say this very proudly [00:07:00] of knowing when to gently push to help. My granddaughter's become more confident and when to, when to push and when to step back. It's, it's a delicate, interesting dance, if you will. 

Olivia: Sure. Is. 

Muriel: Um, I do think, I know without a doubt that the number one indi, one of the top indicators of someone's success is their confidence. Their confidence in themselves. And so, to give an example, um, first time my granddaughter goes and does something on her own. She's sort of hiding behind my, my daughter, you know, very shy, very withdrawn. And then the more confident she becomes in her ability to swim, the more eager she is to go into her swimming [00:08:00] lessons to be comfortable, to almost dismiss her mother that she's got this at five years old. But I think you masterfully take the lead from your child, but also the knowing that you have an expectation that they can do this, and that you believe in them, that they can do this and you do that, talk with them. 

So, um, again, I've watched children over the years who were too shy to even show their artwork because they didn't think they were artists. And I went back and I looked at systems in schools. We have systems that say to children, you're great in this, but you're not so great in that because you don't have your art up. So every child in our school had their artwork displayed, and that was a direct [00:09:00] result of my daughter being in elementary school and us going excitedly to their art show. You either felt pride or you looked and looked and never saw your artwork.

Olivia: Yeah, true. 

Muriel: Which was my daughter. And in that moment, she no longer said, thought she was an artist before then she did. And then when her work wasn't displayed, she felt she wasn't an artist anymore. So again, what are, what messages, what systems, what opportunities are we providing that help build our students' confidence? Um, and that's where, where we should give a great deal of our energy is building the confidence. Uh, none of us are great at all things. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Muriel: And that's an important lesson to learn, but [00:10:00] knowing what you are great at, knowing what your gifts are and capitalizing on that, leaning into that is what helps to build this level of confidence in our students. Yeah…

Olivia: It does. I love that you're using the word build. Um, and I think your example, the story you just told is beautiful as well because it really does come back to scaffolding. It's very easy to put scaffolding up around a building. It is much harder to know when to take that scaffolding down. And so when it comes to ensuring a child feels different levels of success and scaffolding that, swim lessons are a great example.

I'm also thinking in a classroom what it can look like and I'm going to go back to something you said. Talk to the children. Ask them if something feels really overwhelming, too big to do, ask them what feels like a good next step. [00:11:00] We, we, we feel like as adults, we have to hold all of this responsibility, and let's go back to chapter four and trust them with responsibility that they can choose what their next step is that feels doable when it comes to in the classroom and outside, don't you think? 

Muriel: Absolutely. I'm reminded, um, as I'm listening to you of, um, one of the things we did as a, I did as a principal, we did as a team, was give our children opportunities to practice public speaking. All students. Now, some students, some adults are better at this than others, and public speaking, um, seems to be one of the greatest fears that adults have is speaking in public.

Um, but it's such a critical lifelong skill that we, uh, all should feel more comfortable with. So when children would give speeches at A.B. Combs on a leadership day, and this is what we [00:12:00] call leadership day. Um, if they forgot part of their speech and they, they, we said, don't use notes. We want you to speak from your heart and we're going to, we're gonna help you, but you're gonna help us write this. We're going to help you with this. 

We would never let a child leave the stage if they forgot their speech, they started over again and we said to the audience, this is a learning opportunity. 

Olivia: Mm-hmm. 

Muriel: Because I knew that if the children ever left that stage feeling unsuccessful, the likelihood of their willingness to get back up there would be slim to none. So we never let let them leave until they were successful. And it, and they may have had to do it two or three times. So I, I go back to that, but one child said to me once, 'cause we, we had children that were highlighted in public speaking because [00:13:00] that was what they felt their gift was in. But we wanted all children to have that, uh, opportunity. So they said if we have something like, you know, you stand in front of something when you speak, but in our classroom we just stand in front of everybody. They were talking about a podium. 

Olivia: Yes. 

Muriel: So we had the local high school build podiums for every single classroom in the school so that every child could stand behind a podium because that was their security blanket until they felt they could move away from that and learn to walk a stage. So you see, I think when you talk about when do you remove the scaffolding, we also need to know when to put up that scaffolding - scaffolding, if you will, and listening to children tell us what they need. And some children did need to use note cards and that was the first step, and so we allowed that.

But you, you see, it's [00:14:00] knowing what does a child need, what do they not need? And what are you enabling and what are you not, and what are you trusting and believing in them in terms of what they're capable of doing? It's like the first time those training wheels are taken off your, your bicycle.

Olivia: It's messy.

Muriel: That feeling of…It's messy. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Muriel: And you're wobbling, but the, the feeling of sheer exhilaration when you take off and you're not wobbling any longer, and I think that's our goal as educators, is to give them what they need when they need it but also to give them the opportunity of that feeling of success and exhilaration when they're ready for it. Yeah. 

Olivia: Yeah. I, I want to also linger a moment with, um, the idea of discomfort because I see as a mom myself, I have two sons. Um, [00:15:00] and it is not easy to not jump in and to just do the thing that you're asking when we talk about, uh, responsibility or owning a learning journey - my, um, younger son is in middle school right now and there is a very fine line with homework. And, uh, getting ready, like being prepared and the adult doing it for a child versus not. I've always considered middle school that training ground, um, after elementary of where you are really handing off the baton of responsibility for high school of where the, the student has to run it for themselves, um, with scaffolding if needed.

But it's interesting of the little reminders of how I choose, it's my second child, so it makes it a little bit smoother, I think. Uh, but his perspective to hear from him, oh, you are so strict about this, or you are parenting differently, he actually voices [00:16:00] that, and as a parent, I have to be ready to hear that. My husband has to be ready to hear that and to hear him out. Um, and that's another piece I, I, I want our kids to feel comfortable to push back with grownups, but in a respectful way, and as you said, have reasons. I may entertain what you're saying, I will listen, but I may actually change the path I was going to go down based on how you show up.

And I think that there are so many adults right now that are not communicating clearly themselves of their hopes and dreams and then they're not heard. Um, so it's just interesting. But what would you say, like, why is that moment of discomfort to not do it for children so important.

Muriel: You know, growth comes from the discomfort, you know, um, growth always comes when we, [00:17:00] we, I like to refer to it and it's referred to in the book as a stretch. This is a stretch. Um, and I would say to my own children, um, this is gonna be a stretch for you. It sounds like you think it's going to be a stretch as well. Let's talk through it. I know you can do it. You're capable of doing it. And yes, it's gonna be hard, but the feeling you're gonna have when you push through this discomfort to and stretch yourself, um, is gonna be like something you've never felt before. And I saw it with my son who was an athlete. I saw it with my daughter.

Uh, and the things that she did that, um, and it's hard, it's hard not to go and rescue. It's hard not to, and it's almost like this dip that right in that dip, you want to just go back or, or, or pull 'em back in and help 'em. You gotta let 'em stay [00:18:00] in that dip for a while. Because that's where the growth happens. And then get to the other side. It's, it's, uh, again, I go back to it's a delicate, oh, delicate dance. But, you know, our children learn the most when they are stretched and given opportunities to practice. Um, you know, sending your child on an airplane for the very first time by themselves. You've laid a lot of groundwork. This is, this is how you read the board. This is who you ask help from. Uh, this is what you do, dah, dah, dah. You prepare them. And I think that our role as parents is in fertilizing the soil, if you will, the preparation so that they, the conditions are right for them to grow and flourish. And in that, um, sometimes lies the discomfort. Our job is preparing the soil for them to do as well as they possibly [00:19:00] can. 

Olivia: I would say it's the same in the classroom because if we see ourselves as educators, as the holders of knowledge of the people in control, there is a big difference between empowering children to own their own learning journey and feeling like we are managers in a classroom.

Children don't want to feel managed. Uh, they want to feel like they have a voice. So, I know that the Leader in Meis really based on the premise that all children, all adults, are leaders, and it's our job. You said unleash. I, we could say, unlock, um, to really help people find that collective wisdom within themselves, their strengths, but then share that with the community. Um, this work that you've done with Dr. Hatch, it's a global endeavor. So I'd love for you to speak to trends that you found across the world [00:20:00] when it comes to responsibility and, um, empowerment for children, both academically and I would say emotionally too. 

Muriel: Yeah. You know, it's, it's interesting having an opportunity travel to different parts of the world. You see children in other countries. Doing things at a much earlier age in terms of responsibility than you do in other parts of the world. And so children learn very early, you know, what, um, about what is asked of them, um, what they're capable of doing. For example, you know, just recently I was on, um, in New York and I was riding the ferry to Staten Island. I noticed a parent pulls up. She drops her child off. He can't be more than nine years old, and the child is riding the ferry into the city. Um, [00:21:00] and the person beside me said that child can't be more than eight years old and he's getting on the ferry y'all by himself. 

And is he gonna, he's gonna be there to greet him when he gets to the other side, and is he gonna know what to all these questions, this plethora of questions coming forward. The child knew exactly what to do. Olivia, from a very global perspective, um, we see different levels of responsibility for students being given, um, to different degrees. That's one thing. Um, but what we found. It's so true is that children are children no matter where you go in the world. 

Olivia: They sure are. Yeah. 

Muriel: You know, um, and they enjoy similar things. They wanna be engaged, they want to have a voice, they want to be heard. They want to be given leadership roles and responsibilities. I am [00:22:00] blown away by what I see in cultures where the focus is on children taking responsibility. And I call it leadership cultures. Um, their depth of knowledge, the, I remember so vividly being in India and the question was posed to the students, what is an issue that you are most concerned about in our world right now? The level and the depth of their responses. I felt like I was sitting in front of people far older than these children, and I thought in that moment, our world looks much brighter. When these children are taking charge. And I see that everywhere [00:23:00] I go. Everywhere I go, learning is important. Um, a great education ever how that is defined by the country in which these children live is important. 

So education is so important to all of us, but I think countries are realizing that students have thoughts, they have ideas. Um, Romania is one of the countries I remember, so um, with such emotion when girls were given such an opportunity to have a voice, if they were in a public school or if they were in a private school, it made a difference how much their voices were heard, which is why the work that we do in helping educators realize, listen to your students. Give them [00:24:00] all roles and responsibilities. Give them all a voice, get to know their hopes and dreams and aspirations, and help them develop the confidence that they need to go whatever path in life they choose to go. Um, I see more of that happening globally than I ever have before. And my experience globally, um, has just come very late in my life. But even over the course of the past 10 years, I'm seeing a shift, if you will, to listening to our students more, knowing their aspirations, and providing the opportunities for those, um, aspirations to be realized by the students. 

Olivia: Well, I'm grateful that this book exists. I'm, I'm more grateful that there are thought [00:25:00] leaders like you, like Dr. Hatch in the world doing this, um, advocacy on behalf of children. And so it's not just that our children need to advocate for themselves. Adults need to stand by this work. And if there are spaces, if there are schools for our families, you have to believe in your children. Uh, you have to have high expectations. Get out of their way, let them make mistakes. Um, I will stand on that hill, uh, forever because that is where we grow. We grow when we are trying new things, when we're learning, and when we taste success, and then we try something again. Uh, Muriel, thank you so much for this conversation and for your legacy of work that you have led.

Muriel: Whatever legacy. And I don't like to think too much about legacy, but I hope that we as educators remember this. [00:26:00] We have one of the greatest opportunities ever to make a difference in the lives of others and in the whirlwind of all the things we're asked to do, the greatest gift we can give our students is building a relationship with them where we will be remembered and when we will leave our heart prints on them that will last a lifetime. 

Olivia: Well said. Thank you, Muriel. 

Muriel: Thank you so much, Olivia. 

Olivia: Take care. Muriel left us with something that I want to just think about for a moment. The idea of leaving heart prints, not test scores, not lesson plans, not data walls, heart prints. That's the legacy she's calling us toward, and I think it's exactly right. I'm leaving part two with three key takeaways. First, empowerment is a word that has to be defined by the user.[00:27:00] It isn't a word to be afraid of necessarily because at its core it means communicating a child's worth and potential so clearly that they begin to see it in themselves if they haven't already. Second, knowing when to put up scaffolding is hard. Knowing when to take it down is harder. The answer lives in listening to the child.

Kids will often tell you exactly what they need if we create the conditions to hear them. And third, growth lives in the discomfort. Our job as educators and caregivers isn't to rescue children from the dip. It's to prepare them well enough beforehand that they can find their way through it. If you want to learn more about this work, I am tucking links in the show notes. We highlighted Leader in Me as well as Teacher Believed in Me. You can learn more about the Leader in ME movement and Muriel's work @leaderinme.org. 

Next week I'm taking things somewhere unexpected. [00:28:00] David Price has taken science busking to 26 countries, and in this conversation he proves exactly why it works. David takes us from his time on street corners to Singapore Championships, and this episode illuminates why STEM is irresistible to any audience anywhere in the world. David even pulls us into a live demonstration before we even realize what's happening, and that's exactly the point you don't wanna miss it.

Schoolutions podcast is created, produced, and edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Thank you always to my older son, Ben, who created the music playing in the background. You can follow and listen to Schoolutions wherever you get your podcasts or subscribe to never miss an episode and watch on YouTube. Thank you to my guest, Muriel Summers for reminding us that the biggest things we do for children often live inside the smallest things we ask them to do.

Reach out to me @oliviawahl.com if you'd like a [00:29:00] thought partner to help you cultivate curious learners who advocate for what they believe in. And don't forget to tune in every Monday and Friday for part one and part two of my guest conversations with the best evidence based, classroom ready strategies that you can apply right away to better the lives of the children in your care. Your 60 second bite-sized piece of learning from our conversation will be waiting for you on Wednesdays to share with a colleague. Take care and thank you for forever getting better with me. See you next week.