Every Student Is a Leader & Here's the Research to Prove It

Is your student council accidentally silencing the students who need a voice most?

In Part 1 of this two-part S5E38  @schoolutionspodcast conversation, Rachael Thrash, Senior Director of Education and Innovation at Big Bad Boo Studios and author of Let the Learners Lead: Empowering Student Voice to Co-Create School Culture, breaks down why traditional student leadership models are quietly reinforcing the status quo, and what co-creation actually looks and feels like in schools.

Rachael walks us through David Yeager's research and the student voice continuum, unpacks why a student survey is NOT the same as student voice, and shares two unforgettable stories about what happens when teachers trust kids enough to let things get messy. This is instructional leadership and school culture work at its most human.

Some episode mentions:

•  Rachael Thrash's website
• 10 to 25 by David Yeager, PhD
• Designing Group Work by Cohen and Lawton
• Student Voice Continuum — Teschales and Nykula, University of Pennsylvania
• International School of Helsinki
• Tricia Friedman

🎧 Part 2 drops Friday, where Rachael walks us through a school case study, whose voices get overlooked most, and the one move you can make on Monday morning to get this work started.

CHAPTERS
0:00 — Hook: Is Your Student Council Doing More Harm Than Good?
1:00 — Welcome & Introduction: Who Is Rachael Thrash?
2:00 — Research Spotlight: David Yeager & Designing Group Work
3:30 — What Traditional Student Leadership Gets Wrong
5:00 — The Student Council Constitution That Excludes Most Kids
6:00 — The Moment Rachael Knew We Had to Do This Differently
7:30 — Student Voice vs. Student Survey: There's a Huge Difference
9:00 — The Student Voice Continuum Explained
10:30 — Co-Creation: What It Actually Means for Students & Adults
11:30 — What Happens When Teachers Let Go of Control
12:30 — The Resistance Art Gallery Story
14:30 — The Helsinki Interview That Changed Everything
16:00 — Life Is Messy — and That's the Point
16:45 — Lightning Round With Rachael Thrash
19:00 — Key Takeaways & Call to Action
19:45 — Come Back for Part 2 — Preview

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Transcript

Olivia: [00:00:00] What if your student council is actually doing more harm than good? This week, Rachael Thrash, Senior Director of Education and Innovation at Big Bad Boo Studios and author of Let the Learners Lead, makes the case that traditional leadership models are quietly reinforcing the status quo. If you've ever wondered why your quietest, most thoughtful students never raise their hand, this conversation is going to hit home.

This is Schoolutions, the podcast that extends education beyond the classroom, a show that isn't just theory, but practical, try-it-tomorrow approaches for educators and caregivers to ensure every student finds their spark and receives the support they need to thrive. I am Olivia Wahl, and I am so happy to welcome Rachael Thrash to the podcast this week.

Let me [00:01:00] tell you a little bit about Rachael. Rachael Thrash has spent her career crossing borders to help schools build cultures where every student and educator leads together. From Helsinki to Warsaw to her current role as Senior Director of Education and in- Innovation at Big Bad Boo Studios, she brings a global lens and an unshakable conviction that every child has something meaningful to contribute. Our conversation this week will focus on Rachael's book. Rachael, I have it right here. I'm so happy to have it in my hands Let the Learners Lead: Empowering Student Voice to Co-Create School Culture" Welcome, welcome, welcome, Rachael, to the podcast. 

Rachael: Well, thank you. It is such an honor to be here, and thank you for that lovely introduction.

Olivia: Absolutely. Um, I want to give a shout-out to Tricia Friedman for in- just connecting us and helping me find brilliant people like yourself in the world doing [00:02:00] this important work. Um, my favorite part of your framework, of your vision for leadership is the idea of co-creation. Um, and so I was hoping you could start us off with a piece of research or a researcher that ties to that work that you are so passionate about.

Rachael: Absolutely. One of my very favorite researchers is David Yeager, and if you haven't, please pick up his book 10 to 25. And what he really talks about is how adults can mentor young people ages 10 to 25, which is adolescence, um, and that's educators and parents and even in the workforce, and it's so positive. Um, my other one is really for educators specifically. When we're talking about heterogeneous classrooms and we're thinking about how to bring kids together and, and help everyone really thrive, Designing Group Work, uh, Designing Group Work by Cohen and Lawton. [00:03:00] It's a slightly older text, but it still holds true and gives wonderful strategies. I would love it in every classroom. 

Olivia: Oh, beautiful. Okay. So part one, I wanted to have you focus around what has traditional leadership looked like and felt like, and how have we gone wrong, with you offering some potential solutions. But part two, we're going to focus more on what your framework, the idea of co-creation looks and feels like in schools so people can leave the conversation hitting the ground running, of course, ordering your book as well. Um, so let's start off with that question: What does traditional leadership work look and feel like in schools, and where have we left different aspects out? 

Rachael: Sure. I think the biggest issue with traditional student leadership in schools is that it centers the voice of those children who, good for them, but they already feel a great sense of success. So those kids who are [00:04:00] popular, those kids who are really good at sports, for instance, those kids with a lot of confidence, and it's great that what they wanna step up. But when we have exclusive student leadership models that really are about we act as if it's a privilege and not something that everyone has an opportunity to be part of, we send a message that the status quo is kids are who they are already.

It's the opposite of growth mindset, really, right? We're saying, "Kids, if you haven't already shown leadership in a very specific way, then there's no room for you." And if instead we really wanna say school is a laboratory for trying things out, for taking responsibility, for learning how to be in community, if we're only giving k- certain kids that opportunity, we're just repeating the status quo that takes place in society where only some people have a voice. Um, and I think those traditional student leadership models are replicated [00:05:00] through things like elections. Um-in the book, I actually investigate a out of, um, Pennsylvania, uh, put out on their website best practices and a sample constitution for a student council, and most of the constitution is barriers to kids participating.

So it says you have to have this certain grade point average, you have to get this many other kids to sponsor you, you have to write an essay. I think about kids who have just come to the school who don't have enough people who they can ask, kids who are shy, kids who English isn't their first language, all of these kids for whom we wanna hear, "Is school working for you?" We wanna give them practice, but they're being told, "Leadership isn't for you." 

Olivia: So then Rachael, what was the moment that it just occurred to you, "Okay, we have to do this differently," based on everything you just shared? 

Rachael: I would say there were a million moments. Um, I, I [00:06:00] can give you a few. I can give you, my own child was new in school, in lower school, and they, um, the teacher announced that anyone who wanted in, to be in student council could raise their hand, and then there'd be a vote. And she sat there thinking, "I'm not gonna raise my hand. I'm new to this school. I would love to be part of this, but why would I put myself out there so early in the school year?" So we're even doing this to lower school children. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Rachael: Um, another student I can speak to is a young woman, I mean, a young man, I'm sorry, who I actually feature in the book, who was somebody who learned differently. He wasn't a person who ever turned his schoolwork in on time, and yet he noticed a lot of cultural problems and a lot of discrimination taking place in school, people making casual homophobic comments, and he wanted to do something about it, but he was like, "I'm certainly not gonna be part of a student council.

They would never-- I don't have time in my [00:07:00] schedule. I wouldn't even be considered 'cause I'm not the kind of person who would be organized enough to be part of this group." Why we have to put together organization and student leadership, I-- those are two different tasks. We can teach organization, um, but having everyone has an opinion, and that should be part of how we are centering student voice and student leadership by kids sharing their unique opinions and their unique perspectives.

Olivia: So that is a perfect segue because I, I was fascinated to learn from you and to have listeners learn what is the difference then between centering student voice and then a typical survey we would send out to hear from students? 

Rachael: I think typical surveys that we send out in schools are basically teaching student voice as a spectator sport, right? And, and I would actually equate that to how many of us [00:08:00] participate, quote unquote, "in democratic societies." The reality is that if we are going to be active citizens, either in our communities, in our schools, in democratic societies, we can't just sit back and vote and think that means that we're done. We have to identify an issue and then lean into, "Okay, well, where is my part and my responsibility in beginning to lean into this issue?" So back to your specific question, what's the difference? Um, when we fill in a survey, somehow we're expecting someone else to do something about it. But when we're part of creating the survey and assessing it and looking at the feedback, then we begin to say, "All right, how can we move the needle here?"

Yeah. How can we change where kids aren't feeling a sense of belonging, a sense of empowerment? And it's not just me. What about the kid next to [00:09:00] me? Do they also get a chance? Um, I use research from Teschales and Nykula, who are out of the University of Pennsylvania, and they have a student voice continuum um, that actually originated with Dana Mitra.

Um, and the student voice continuum begins certainly with giving your feed-- Well, first it begins with, are you even-- If you didn't show up tomorrow, would anyone even notice? Like- Do-- Are you represented at school? And that's really important. You know- do, d- are, are you a member of the class? But then it gets into, is your opinion asked? And that's important, too. Like, that you-- Sometimes it's simply, do you like the school lunch? And that's great. You should have your opinion asked. But then, do you get to work with the adults in the community to begin to make sure that your opinion is embedded?

And then at the far end, do you get to identify issues and work with an adult to begin to make improvements? And that's when we give kids a real sense of co-creation. [00:10:00] Um, because kids can't do this stu- I mean, there are cer- certain things kids can work- on their own, but the reality is adults have the status. They have access to things like the schedule. They might have knowledge about if you begin to-- If you think you're gonna use this classroom, there are three other clubs that use it too, right? There's- many important things that are essential to making a change, um, even just logistics. So we've gotta co-create, but helping kids see that those factors are important to maybe deciding that you wanna cl- create places of more belonging. You're helping them actualize and change the school setting, and that's how I would see the difference between simply voicing your opinion to really beginning to actualize change. 

Olivia: Yeah. The strand that I just continued to coil for me as a reader, um, and this book is newly released, and I had the gift of you sending me, [00:11:00] um, just a pre-read of the, the material. And I just continued to go back to the value of engaging kids in this work. And our students are craving to be asked, to be heard. And sometimes I'm in schools and I feel like the adults are in the way, and they're almost preventing kids out of that sense of control. Um, sadly, sometimes it's for a lack of belief that students can do this work. So I wanted to linger there a little bit. If a teacher said to you, "Look, this sounds dreamy, but it is scary," what would your advice be to that person to just take the plunge, give it a go? 

Rachael: Well, I'm gonna, I'm going to tell you a little story actually- from my own, from my own experience. I was working with some students and really wanted to give them an authentic [00:12:00] audience for some of the work they were doing. I had them put on a res- resistance text gallery to really show, um, some issues in society that they didn't think were fair. And I let them choose their issue, and I worked with a cafe in the neighborhood, like an actual public cafe, to put up this resistance art gallery. And they were gonna have a real audience, but one of the biggest issues was that we couldn't make any marks on the wall of this restaurant, right? So I worked with some of the students and, and maintenance to come up with some strategies to put everything up on the wall. But we only had a very short period of time, like an hour and a half, that we could run in, install everything, and then the parents and the community was gonna come in. So- 

Olivia: Oh, that's so stressful. 

Rachael: It's a little stressful. So I- say to the kids, right, "You need to be my allies in this. I am one person. Maintenance isn't even [00:13:00] available for us, but I wanna make this happen. Do you wanna make this happen?" Well, sure enough, they did, because they were really invested, this real audience, and they had important things that they wanted to talk about. They wanted to talk about mental health messages and body image and all of these things. So we get to the, the cafe and I have all these sticky things, and I start putting them up on the wall, and it's like the wall has just spit them off and they're-- everything's falling. And so I turned to my kids and I was like, "You gotta help me."

And they became so active in problem-solving. They went back to school, they got what they needed, they came up with solutions. They weren't gonna let me fail. They-- Because they-- I trusted them. We were part of a team. And the reality is, if things-- It, it's a happy ending. If things hadn't worked out, they still would've come-- They would've held their artwork up, because I had said to them: We're [00:14:00] doing this real world thing. We need to make it work one way or another, and life doesn't always work out perfectly. 

And I think so many of the student leadership initiatives we have in schools end up being the school being so worried about their performance. That principal who it becomes all about, "Do I look good enough?" So the kids, I better make them practice 40 times or read the script I gave them so we all look polished. But when we do it that way, we rob children of the opportunity to make a mistake, to re- to correct, to see that we make mistakes- Yeah ... to see that in community we are stronger. So sometimes things don't work out. You know? Sometimes—

I had another example where I had, um... We were working with different newcomers to Finland. This is when I was at the International School of Helsinki, and my [00:15:00] kids were interviewing them about their experience. And someone showed up, and he, he was an Arabic speaker, and he didn't speak any English. Well, we didn't know this when we set it up, so my kids couldn't ask any of their questions. Well, this young, very shy girl in the class who spoke both English and Arabic stepped up and said, "I can do the translations."

Olivia: Amazing. 

Rachael: And then did, live. And after that, she was far less shy in the classroom, because this was a messy experience. I had trusted kids to do an interview with somebody they hadn't met before. I mean, I'm in the background, but I couldn't solve for that problem, and she did. Um, and that's when kids see that their individual skills that maybe weren't the ones prioritized through a test or through an election are actually incredibly valuable in the community.

Olivia: Ah, thank you for those stories and examples. That's what I think makes this come to life in so many ways. And our students, our children need to understand [00:16:00] life is messy. Life is imperfect, and adults are imperfect. And th- the idea of teachers knowing everything, it's, it's so outdated, and it's not what is best when it comes to our world of education. So I appreciate this for many, many different reasons. Um, I want to end part one with a lightning round, and then we'll jump into part two, um, that we'll release later in the week. But I have five questions, lightning round questions. Just give your gut instinct. Um, question one: Most schools treat student voice like...

Rachael: It's a performance. 

Olivia: Hmm. What's one word that captures what school culture feels like when students are co-creating? 

Rachael: Dynamic. 

Olivia: What's a teacher behavior that silences student voice unintentionally? 

Rachael: Jumping in to solve for everything for them before they get a chance to even be uncomfortable. [00:17:00] 

Olivia: Student council: reform it or scrap it?

Rachael: Reform it, because it's the best opportunity to look at how systems can be changed. But reform it with the students and make sure that they're critiquing it as they reform it so that they're used to looking at how power resides in places and what you can do to make it more equitable. 

Olivia: What is a question that most teachers ask and students are sick of teachers asking it, and instead they wish teachers would listen to that question instead?

Rachael: Why do you spend so much time on your phone? I think when I've talked to students about this, they, they feel really strongly that we believe it to be always negative and that we presume things about the way they're using their phones and technology. And if [00:18:00] we instead slow down and listen to them, there are a vast array of reasons, some unhealthy and some that we don't realize are actually healthy, and we need to be able to listen to them so that we can make good decisions around technology and young people.

Olivia: Oh, let's just pause the conversation there. Um, and again, part two, I want to highlight what this looks and feels like. You've already given us glimpses, but the idea of the framework and what do we begin with? Um, I'd love for you to share about a school example of how it transpired over time and their results. So I cannot wait to jump into part two with you, Rachael. Thank you for this beginning conversation. 

Rachael: You're welcome 

Olivia: That is a wrap on part one of my conversation with the wonderful Rachael Thrash. She reminds us that traditional student leadership is a performance, and [00:19:00] it's time to disrupt the system by making co-creation the norm, not the exception. Three of my key takeaways from this part one conversation: First, most student leadership models are built on barriers like GPA requirements, elections, and essays that silence the very students whose voices matter most. Second, student voice isn't a survey you send out and forget. Real co-creation means students identify problems, work alongside adults, and drive change together. Third, when we over-script and over-polish student leadership moments, we rob kids of the productive struggle that builds real confidence and community. 

Don't forget to pick up Rachael's book, Let the Learners Lead. I've tucked a link in the show notes. And learn more about her work at cocreateschools.com. Come back for part two later this week when Rachael walks us through a school case study, whose voices get overlooked most, and the one move you can make Monday morning [00:20:00] to get this work started. You do not want to miss it. See you Friday.