Schoolutions: Curious Educators. Evidence-Based Strategies. Classrooms Where Every Child Thrives.

Teaching Fiercely: Why Teachers Need Autonomy to Transform Schools

• Olivia Wahl • Season 5 • Episode 43

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What does it look like to lead with both ferocity and grace, and why do so many teachers forget that admitting your feelings isn't the same as admitting defeat?

In Part 2 of my S5E43 Schoolutions conversation, I continue my conversation with Cornelius Minor⁩  (author of We Got This) and Dr. Kass Minor (author of Teaching Fiercely), co-founders of The Minor Collective. We discuss why grace and ferocity are twin concepts and how embracing emotional vulnerability is actually a mark of true strength. We also talk about what sustains teachers through hard times, what school leadership really looks like when it's built around empowered educators, and how marveling at the children right in front of you can change everything.

You'll learn:
→ Why grace is ferocity's twin and what "speculative grace" means for inclusive teaching
→ How admitting your feelings builds real community (Cornelius's unforgettable skateboard story)
→ What instructional leadership looks like when it centers authentic learning conversations
→ Why every teacher, coach, and caregiver must claim the title of knower
→ Cornelius's two-step summer practice: witness a young person, then marvel

Kass and Cornelius also share what it's like to co-found The Minor Collective while raising two daughters together, and what their marriage teaches them about community, humility, and beautiful chaos.

💫Check out Part 1 & some resources mentioned:

Chapters:
0:00 Intro: Grace, ferocity, and keeping hope alive in hard times
1:45 What does it mean to refind your ferocity?
3:30 Sankofa: drawing fuel from ancestors and looking back to move forward
5:30 Grace is ferocity's twin; rethinking what sustains teachers
6:45 Cornelius's skateboard story: Joe, Malcolm, and admitting your feelings
9:30 Vulnerability in instructional leadership: what it really looks like
11:30 Curriculum inquiry conversations and the ecosystem of learning
14:00 The Minor Collective at home; co-creating a life and a mission
17:30 Beauty and chaos: what partnership and marriage teach about community
20:00 Can you ever turn the work off? On the personal and professional being enmeshed
22:00 Lessons from outside the US; listening to children and honoring what they bring
24:30 Who gets to be a knower? Why teachers must claim their expertise
28:00 The evolution of coaching: dialogic, facilitative, and side by side
29:30 Where does hope live? The tweens, the teens, and thrifting
32:00 Two steps for summer: witness a young person and marvel
34:30 Wrap-up + what's coming in season six

Schoolutions is the podcast for educators and school leaders, families and homeschoolers, and the coaches, counselors, and mentors who believe every student deserves to thrive. Join our community of educators committed to cultivating student success, inspired teaching, and creating inclusive classrooms with a pro-kid mindset focused on the whole child.

🌿Ready to grow alongside your children? Book a coaching session with me here. We'll unlock the expert who is already within you and surround you with a community of educators committed to forever getting better through collective expertise.

🎵 Music: Benjamin Wahl

Don't forget to 🔔SUBSCRIBE for more teaching tips, and 💬SHARE the episode!

Next Week:  I'm doing something a little different. I'm sitting with the big ideas from this season; the threads that have run through every conversation, and I'm thinking out loud with you about what's coming. About a vision I am so passionate about, one that is at the heart of what Season 6 will be: For Teachers, By Teachers, and Forever Getting Better. That theme is close to my heart for many reasons, including a book I've been pouring myself into that's coming your way in spring 2027. I cannot wait to share more.

#schoolutions #schoolutionspodcast #forevergettingbetter #curiositydriven #evidencebasedstrategies #classroomreadystrategies #education #teachers #schoolculture #teachercoaching #instructionalcoaching #inclusiveteaching #culturallyresponsiveteaching #equityineducation #teachingfiercely #minorcollective #professionaldevelopment #schoolleadership #studentengagement #wholechild #grace #ferocity #marvel 

When teachers, coaches, administrators, and families grow together, they create schools where everyone is inspired and every student is fully engaged, supported, and ready to thrive.

Olivia: [00:00:00] Welcome, listeners. I am back to continue my conversation with Cornelius and Dr. Kass Minor. If you caught part one, welcome back. If this is your first time joining us, no worries. This episode stands on its own, though part one is absolutely worth your time. Today, we explore why grace is ferocity's twin, why admitting your feelings isn't admitting defeat, and how to marvel in what children show you. Let's get back into it. This is Schoolutions, the podcast that extends education beyond the classroom. A show that isn't just theory, but practical, try it tomorrow approaches for educators and caregivers to ensure every student finds their spark and receives the support they need to thrive 

Olivia: I'm Olivia Wahl, and I am thrilled to [00:01:00] be back with Cornelius and Dr. Kass Minor. Uh, we are- this is part two of our conversation, and we are talking all about what it looks and feels like to have hope moving forward in education when things are hard. Things have always been hard in education. Um, but, uh, Kass and Cornelius, I'm, I'm hoping that you can shed a light on, you know, how we can keep moving forward, um, and go into the summer resting, rejuvenating, and finding joy and our spark as teachers to come back September ready to hit the ground running. Kass, a piece you wrote that I love on Refinding Ferocity, it really struck me, and I wanted to ask you: What does it mean to refind your ferocity? 

Kass: Yeah. You know, it's so interesting. I, I wrote a piece a while ago, it's on my blog, um, if you're looking for it, if you wanna read it, folks.

Olivia: I'll put a link in the show notes. 

Kass: Sure. Uh, so I was just thinking there's so many [00:02:00] folks, um, before us, before these times who have experienced, you know, maybe not the exact same thing, right? But like extreme challenges and like real hardship, like gut-wrenching hardship. And it's, it's always interesting to me when we work in education that, you know, there's a lot of, of us, including myself, I'm just like, "Oh, what to do? What to do? Like, this is so hard. Where do we go from here?" And you know that that old adage, uh, like sankofa, like to move forward you must look back, right?

Like this is a, a very common refrain in many cultures, and I think sometimes in the Western world we forget that. And so I often, I know many folks, many educators love to read. I love to research. Um, and so I, for a moment really returned to, you know, some ancestors, you know, thinking about... Cornelius talked about bell hooks. You know, returning to bell hooks, returning to like the stuff you read in undergrad, like Pedagogy of the [00:03:00] Oppressed with Paulo Freire, like this idea that we're unfinished and that you have to really accept yourself as an unfinished person in order to really engage in the process of being an educator, right?

Or even, you know, as radical as she was, someone like Emma Goldman, you know, who was sort of like pigeonholed as like an anarchist, but really she was just embracing like this human condition and what it really meant to be truly liberated as a woman, you know, in the progressive era, like in the 1910s, '20s. And so I was just thinking there's so much fuel for us to draw from, so much ancestral knowledge to draw from. So I think about that, but, you know, in my most recent thinking and feeling and being, I am really, uh, thinking about ferocity more in terms of, of the, the softness that is its cousin, right? And so in, in my recent research, I really think about grace.

I think [00:04:00] about speculative grace, beginner's grace. A lot of teachers I interviewed talked about how grace, um, was such a necessity, not only in their- sustaining, sustaining their work, but also in their ability to forgive their colleagues who don't share the same values as them. And also to an extent, you know, maybe forgiveness is the wrong word, but to an extent see their students as people who really want to be there, who really want to learn, but maybe just don't yet have the tools to engage in classrooms.

And so grace, um, is really like within the lens I'm thinking through, you know, this larger framework of, of ferocity I think is really married to our ability to embrace this kind of grace, to port grace out of the religious spaces and think about how we situate them in just like the everyday [00:05:00] secularness of school.

Olivia: Kass, when I read your writing, um, I left and I leave thinking, asking myself, what does it feel like and look like to balance leading with ferocity and tenderness at the same time? Because I think when we offer ourselves grace, when we offer others grace, there's a tenderness or a tending there. Um, and, and I think a lot about that. And then I, I, I also, you know, on the endless to-do lists I walk around, this is my like ongoing to-do list. It's- look at how thick it is. It's ridiculous. But like I highlight just to show myself like, "Look, there were 300 things you hoped to do today. That's not realistic." Um, but I think as teachers, we are asked to do so much all the time, and to fill everyone's buckets, and just to give and give and [00:06:00] give, and that's not realistic. And so Cornelius, I think too about, you know, what does it look and feel like to sustain as a teacher now, um, when we have families? We want to paint and have hobbies outside of the classroom. Can we do that? 

Cornelius: Absolutely. You know, um, I have spent, well, I spent most of my teaching career as the school skateboard coach, and I learned so many lessons from skating with kids. You know, I always say that skateboarding should be impossible, like to defy gravity with rubber wheels and wooden planks, um, should not exist. Yet it does, and kids do it beautifully. Um, and I'm reminded Of, um, there was one skater who used to skate with me. His name was Joe. Um, Joe was a seventh grader, and the other seventh graders used to say that Joe was unbreakable. He was the best skater I ever coached. Um, he could do anything. Like, Joe could literally, like, defy gravity before [00:07:00] Wicked was even a thing. Um, and we had an event in the back of the school one day, and Joe fell and, like, skinned his knee up pretty bad, and there was kind of blood everywhere. It's nothing any teacher wants to see.

Olivia: Yeah.  

Cornelius: And this unbreakable seventh grader, Joe, like, stayed on the ground and he cried. Um, but then he turned to one of his friends and he was just like, "I need Malcolm's help." And, you know, we're talking about ferocity, and as a team, we had this reputation as these ferocious Brooklyn kids. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Cornelius: And, and that was one of the most ferociously loving things I'd ever seen, like, watching Joe cry and ask not for his coach, not for his parents, but for his teammate.

Olivia: Yeah. 

Cornelius: Um, was such a bold thing for a seventh-grade boy to do, and then to watch Malcolm and all of the other teammates, like, care for Joe so tenderly. Um, I draw from that lessons for what all of us can do now. [00:08:00] Um, I think whatever our version of cry is, you know, that Joe didn't admit defeat, but he admitted his feelings.

Olivia: Yeah. 

Cornelius: And I don't think we do that enough as adults. I certainly don't. Um, and, and I think we've somehow entwined the two, that to admit my feelings means that I'm admitting defeat, and that's not true. To admit my feelings means that I'm human. And so to see Joe there on the ground, like, crying, but then the very next sentence was like, "I need my teammate's help." Um, that's the second lesson that I'm drawing from this, that- It is okay for me to talk about how I feel and to ask for Olivia's help. It's okay for me to talk about how I feel and to ask for Kass's help. And what was powerful about Joe asking for Malcolm's help especially is Joe was the best skater on our team. And so for the best athlete on our team to ask someone who's not the best in an earnest way for help is such a declaration of humility and of community. [00:09:00] Um, and, and I think that's how I wanna move, you know? As I think about how I wanna spend the next few years, um, as an educator, I wanna be able to name that today's Monday and it's really hard today, and I need help. That doesn't mean I'm defeated. That doesn't mean that I'm incapable. 

Olivia: No. 

Cornelius: Like Joe was highly capable as a skater. Um, but it just means that I'm a member of this living organism called a community, and I cannot do it alone.

Olivia: Y- you know what this is making me think about too, I guess, or wonder. Kass, you write a lot about joy, and I don't wonder if joy is still possible. I'm actually, right now my mind is going to leadership. If I am a school leader, how can I balance that notion of being vulnerable and asking for help? Because if you are an instructional leader in a building, you have to also let people know that you need them. So [00:10:00] Kass, what does that look and feel like in your work with Cornelius in schools?

Kass: Yeah. You know, instructional leadership is such a profound way to lead, and it is something that Cornelius and I feel like is, is instrumental in, as you know, in the United States especially, we have to position school administrators as people who know how to teach and who know how learning works. And more and more, they are being positioned in different ways, and yet they are still accountable, held accountable for evaluating teachers and, and coaching them and, and improving their practice. And so when I think about what it means to have leaders be vulnerable and have leaders, like, have these authentic conversations that are rooted in, like, that deep and authentic learning, it means that we have to have authentic learning conversations with teachers.

Olivia: Yes. 

Kass: Right? So in part one of this, this series, this podcast, [00:11:00] when you ask me what does a curricular audit look like, right? We need school administrators to sit down with teachers and have these inq- curricular inquiry conversations about what does this mean if we are teaching curriculum X to this group of students, what is it that we are really teaching them? What is it the students are showing us they need, and how is it that we are going to make that happen? 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Kass: Too often we rely on these sort of like outside measurements, outside recommendations that really have nothing to do with that organism, that very much alive ecosystem that Cornelius referred to.

Olivia: Yeah. 

Kass: And I think the more that we lean into this sort of like in-house conversations about what learning means for us when we really practice with one another. Like, you know, I mentioned grace earlier, and the way that we have defined grace, grace is reflected in the radical acceptance of human [00:12:00] flaws and human error, the right to rest, forgiveness, and prioritized care. So if leaders are to really embrace that in order to learn- Yeah ... how to teach something new, whatever, it might be phonics, it might be, you know, content around the 250th, uh, anniversary of the United States, right? Whatever it might be. Like, the first time you do it, it's not going to look beautiful. 

Olivia: Right.

Kass: And as a school administrator, you do have power as well. So it's not just about shared vulnerability, it's about exercising the power you have to turn something that might feel icky into something that can really work for your people. And so if it is a teacher evaluation framework, there is a lot we can do to wield that tool in a way that can actually generate great feedback for teachers instead of this, like, punitive, demoralizing document that's reflected on this, you know- Product-oriented, uh, skill, right? And so there are communities who are [00:13:00] doing this work. Cornelius and I facilitate this work all of the time. And the more people feel, feel the energy that is surrounded with asking questions and sort of like, you know, messing up, it's sort of like this beautiful chaos because what usually yields from this kind of work is really synergistic learning where kids are asking questions, kids are super engaged. 

Teachers are, you know, sweating at the brow, but it's like getting back to this place that a lot of us began our work in, right? And it, it sometimes feels like we've gotten off path given all of these different sort of instructional mandates and, and legislated literacy. Um, but I do believe the more we own our knowledge, we own what we know about teaching and learning, share our vulnerability, understand that learning is messy. I think Zaretta Hammond has an amazing, uh, just amazing works around the science of learning and what it really means to execute that work in classrooms. I think that [00:14:00] it's possible to feel all of these things that make us feel like teachers. 

Olivia: Yes. Yeah. And that's what so many teachers right now are missing... and craving. Um, a lot of the teachers I work with, when they do feel frustrated, it's not that they don't care. I look at any resistance I think is a good thing. I like resistors, um, because i- there's a caring there. It's what are, what are you resisting against or what are you pushing back on and why? And we have to also pause and lean in when someone's resisting instead of lean back and get our defenses up. Um, but a lot of teachers, the frustration is coming out of a lack of communication, uh, a lack of understanding the why behind the different program that we're being asked to teach, or this shift in a protocol or a document we have to fill in when we have 50 other documents like that.

And that's where I feel like [00:15:00] really skilled facilitators like Kass, you, and Cornelius, you can help people streamline their vision for that communication, and that's why, you know, your partnership is so beautiful. Um, I also... I have to just get really, really, um, invasive. I think it is fascinating that you both h- you co-create this vision for The Minor Collective. You are married. You are raising two daughters together, and, you know, I can't imagine it's always easy to co-create and collaborate. So Cornelius, what does it look like for you, um, and Kass too, you know, how do you take lessons from your partnership and the collaboration into what you do in schools? 

Cornelius: Hmm. You know, um, I learn a lot from Kass. You know, um, even from the very beginning, like The Minor Collective started in many ways because I was professionally lost. [00:16:00] Like, I didn't know what to do next. Like, I was in a really painful teaching situation. Um- And Kass believed in me, and so she built a thing around me. Um, and I think the process of being in this collective together, for me at least, has been getting really busy sometimes and forgetting that. Um, and so walking the circuitous path, you know, or, you know, losing myself to the work. But it's been really exciting to keep coming back to the work. Um, and that, that keep coming back is personified in Kass, you know, is it makes it even, like, more powerful.

Um, but what it's like, I think it is equal parts, like, beauty and chaos, um, fear, um, and even right now in this moment, you know, there's so much [00:17:00] unknown, and learning to read the unknown, um, and learning to chart the unknown, and then making profound mistakes and then coming back and reimagining that unknown and the way forward. I mean, I think that's what a marriage is for all of its profound ugliness and beauty, and, and that's what a partnership is, and that's what it means to, to learn in community with folks. 

Olivia: Yeah. Kass, what are you thinking about after hearing Cornelius? 

Kass: Yeah. You know, it's interesting. Cornelius and I met on my very first day of teaching. So it's interesting because, you know, The Minor Collective officially, you know, began eight years ago, but we have always shared we-- but, you know, before we had our own children, we had always shared students, and we have always been teaching and learning together in a communal way. Um, so it's, it's not really [00:18:00] as if, like, you know, in tw- in 2018 we conceived of this idea and began all of this stuff. You know, officially, yes. I will say the, the challenges, um, that are newer, I would say, are the difference between, like, teaching and learning in a communal way and then, uh, navigating the industrial, like the educational industrial complex. 

Olivia: Mm. 

Kass: Like that has been a real challenge for me as somebody, you know, as, who is privileged to, you know, really move authentically 100% myself in pretty much all of the spaces I occupy. Um, I didn't, I wasn't as familiar as Cornelius was with just, you know, industry in general and, you know, how sort of like publicity works and all of those things. Yeah. And so that, those sort of components being mixed into the conversation have, have been challenging more so I think for me, maybe for Cornelius in different ways.

You know, but when it comes to being in school spaces or [00:19:00] being with children or being in community, like- I don't think Cornelius and I think of challenge as hard, or I don't even think that we approach it with fear. I think it's just something that is part of who we are and what we do. It's how we be. Um, and so that feels very, very, uh, you know, maybe comfortable is not the right word, but it feels, you know, it, it feels like a calling. It feels like where, where I am meant to be with him. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Kass: And so the other stuff kind of gets in the way sometimes, but the, the work that we care about most is, is central and, and continues to be, you know, like Cornelius said, that, that beautiful chaos that we have always been kind of like a part of.

Olivia: Yeah. I, I would say too, I think teachers have a really hard time turning, uh, the work off and just pressing pause on that calling because we do feel called, um, and we are thinking about students, we're thinking about teachers, we're thinking about the communities that we are [00:20:00] hoping, uh, to cultivate and help thrive. Do you ever, both of you, do you have like a point every evening where you're like, "All right, we're, we're paused here. We're not talking about work"? I- is that able to happen because you're so intertwined with your community? 

Kass: Well, interestingly enough, Olivia, my, my research is all about, you know, to the extent we're even able- 

Olivia: Yeah

Kass: to, you know, parse out ourselves, you know, the personal and the professional. And I would argue that, you know, wherever you go, there you are. 

Cornelius: Yeah. 

Kass: Um, you know, we're intertwined, like all of these, you know, our environment, our values, our identities, like who we are inside of school, outside of school, it's all enmeshed, right? But to your point, like we do, I will say, have made a concerted effort to press pause in terms of like we're not gonna be planning for a school. 

Cornelius: Mm-hmm. 

Kass: Um, or like we're not gonna be, you know, generating a new article or proposal or something like that. Although I will say there [00:21:00] are periods of the year where things get really intense. You know, like the fall is really busy, and sometimes it's actually really great that the person you're doing your conference proposal with is laying in bed right next to you. 

Olivia: Yeah. 

Kass: You know, get it done tonight. Get it done. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, I, I also feel, we both feel very comfortable like revising an idea without necessarily, you know, checking in 18 times.

Olivia: Yeah. 

Kass: We just are that, you know, there is something to be said about being married and really being like, you know, sharing your soul with somebody, and that you're really able to make some moves without the level of, uh, checking in with somebody like, you know, if I were to collaborate with you, it would be much more, you know, lots of meetings and lots of phone calls and lots of texting. And Cornelius and I just know. You know, it's very like intuitive at this point. 

Olivia: Ah, that's beautiful. That's beautiful. Um, Cornelius, when you are not at home, you're traveling, um, what have you learned from schools, districts, communities outside of the U.S. [00:22:00] that you wish the U.S. would embrace more? 

Cornelius: You know, um, I'm always learning from other people. Um, you know, and I al- often describe, you know, my very first classroom was probably my grandmother's kitchen. Um, I grew up in Liberia in West Africa, um, and my grandmother was one of the most prominent teachers in our small community. Um, every time I went to the well to get water, every time I went to the market to buy fish, people knew my grandmother or were taught by her. Um, and one of the things that I continue to recognize as I travel, um, is her spirit, and I see it in the way that people listen to and honor kids. That, like, everything that I said to her, um, I'm sure it wasn't important, but she treated it as if [00:23:00] it were. 

Um, and, and it wasn't just in the act of listening, it was what she did after I spoke. That she would move through life, you know, through her kitchen, through our town, in ways that honored the thing that I had just said. Um, and, and I see that when I am in Europe, I see that when I'm in Asia, um, and I wish I saw it more frequently here, that we listen to children and we move in a way that honors what they have brought to the table. You know, it's what Kass and I are pushing for in almost every professional interaction and in almost every familial interaction, that like, what have children said? What have they named as important, and how does that inform the work that we do? Um, and so for me, that feels most important in everything.

Olivia: Kids know when they're heard. They know when they're seen. Um, and [00:24:00] even our own children, we, we need to work on being present. I, I see too many people with phones and just rushing to get that last text, to answer that last email with a child talking to them, and it's like, oh God. And I've done it. I've done it. But I just, the more we can disconnect, I think from tech sometimes and just look at our kids face to face and really be in that moment with them, I think it's magical. Um, and Kass, I, I think your work around what does it mean, um, to be known, to be a knower, you and I share a very common belief, um, around every teacher can teach, every child can learn. And who gets to be a knower really, really matters. Um, can you talk a little bit about that? 

Kass: Yeah. I mean, I, I think maybe what like most people, I think that idea or that concern first started brewing in me as a child, as a [00:25:00] girl in school. You know, I grew up around a lot of really smart- boys and, you know, my family. Uh, of course, I grew up around a lot of really smart women too, but I think, you know, what was valued, um, in terms of, like, what I was able to do versus, like, what the boys around me were able to do w- were v- were really, really different. And then when I became a teacher, I started to see, like, similar dynamics that wasn't as gendered per se, but in terms of your role, right? Like new teacher versus veteran teacher, like teacher versus coach, or admin versus, you know, a paraprofessional. Like so many different dynamics were at play in terms of who was seen as, you know, the person who knew, right? And what I found in my life, even as a child, is that, you know, everybody knows something.

Everybody has something to offer and bring to the table. And so, you know, my ideas around who gets to be a knower is really that everybody has something to offer, and it [00:26:00] is our moral imperative to really listen to every kind of person who is in our community. You know, and that idea of the cylindrical model, the community up model that I write about in my book is, you know, if we all pour in, we're all sitting at the same level in a circle, we're pouring into that circle together, we're listening to one another, we all grow together. And I think that in our school communities and honestly in teacher education, the way that we treat teachers is that they don't know. And they do. But it, it, it's multifaceted, right? Like we as teachers have to believe that we have the capacity to learn more- 

Olivia: Yes ... 

Kass: to adapt in ways that will support the children in front of us. The children in front of us are learning differently than they have in previous decades, and that's new for a lot of folks. But I think that this sort of, um, agentic capacity, this idea that we have, like we are able to learn more, is getting lost. [00:27:00] And I think that it is up to teachers as individuals and our communities to really support what it means to be a knower and what it means to claim that title. Like, don't give it away. Don't let somebody rob you of that, that disposition, because it is dangerous for our children to let other people make decisions who are not spending time with them six hours a day, 180 days across the year. 

Olivia: I, yes, yes, yes, yes. Uh, I would also say in my role as a collaborative coach, I have deemed it, because, uh, the, the idea of coaches going in and fixing teachers- Awful that is very danger- it's awful. And so when I do get to partner, have the privilege of partnering with any teacher, it is always under the assumption that that expert, that human knows so much that I will learn from them. And sometimes it's just having another set of eyes [00:28:00] and ears, someone to look at across the room when a child says something that's magical and share that moment with them.

But as a coach, it is our responsibility when we're in classrooms to name what that teacher, what the children are doing and saying that really matters, that is impacting the learning community. And then I love to offer the teachers research that can have their back to say, "You're doing this amazing thing, and here is a nugget of research that backs you up." That is where I see the evolution of coaching right now, that idea of facilitative or dialogic, where we are in conversation, we are thought partners, and if you want support, if you want me to model, I will be right there with you, but I would never impose that upon you. Um, and so that- that's what's giving me hope, um, because I get to- partner with people and get to do that thinking. It's exciting. Um- 

Kass: Very [00:29:00] exciting. 

Olivia: Yeah. So I, I want to end the conversation, even though I think I could talk with both of you for a long, long, long time. Um, you know, Kass, let's go to the idea of where does hope live for you right now in this moment? 

Kass: For me, the idea of hope. I know, you know, this might sound a little cheesy or repetitive, but I really think these generations that are coming, like the tweens and the teens, I'm so excited about them. 

Olivia: Me too. 

Kass: I love, love sitting with them. I love how they are not materialistic. Nobody wants to buy new things. They wanna go thrifting.

Olivia: Yeah. 

Kass: You know? 

Olivia: It's a big thing. It is. Thrifting is a big thing again. I love it. 

Kass: It is. They go on dates to the thrift store. 

Olivia: Yeah. This is very- It's awesome. Same. My 14-year-old, thrifting. It's great. 

Kass: It's really awesome. I am so enamored with these [00:30:00] generations. Maybe I'm partial because, you know, our children are 11 and 14, but when we sit with their friends, we just went to...New York City has, um, a science, a citywide science exhibit at the Museum of Natural History, and just seeing what children are doing in this non-competitive way, it's really a celebration of science, this generation. They're, you know, they're analyzing gum flavor. They're analyzing subway times. They're analyzing how, why the subway is hot. You know, these are real authentic problems that matter for, like, our everyday lived experience, and I think our media or just society has this tendency to blossom and blow up everything to make things feel impossible. 

Olivia: Mm-hmm. 

Kass: But children, tweens and teens right now, they see the problem, and they are finding solutions to fix it. And we are just, you know, that, you know, person who's helping them along. We're that facilitator, and it's really beautiful. And I think, [00:31:00] you know, the first time in my life, um, maybe because I'm older, more experienced, I am more comfortable with taking a couple steps back and really just listening and witnessing, and it has been really, really beautiful to watch.

Olivia: Yeah. I share in the same sentiments. Um, and, and the kids are giving me so much hope in the way that they can be in, um, dialogue with each other and disagree, and to just pull from, "Well, I think this because of this," or, "I think this because of this," and then say, "Oh, I hadn't considered that." And so that is giving me hope. Um, Cornelius, I, I want to end by asking you, what could a listener do tomorrow or think about this summer that would really reflect the values of The Minor Collective? 

Cornelius: It's exactly what you all are describing. Um, two things. So two steps, easy steps. Um, pay attention to what a young [00:32:00] person is doing. So not just saying, um, not just projecting, but doing. Pay attention to all three dimensions of their humanity, um, and marvel in it. Um, and marvel is an interesting word 'cause it's not just like look, but marvel is celebrate it. Um, marvel is work to augment it. So how can I support this thing that a young person is doing or being? Marvel is like help them to expand it. So how can I help them to build on this thing that they are feeling or doing or being? And so if you were to leave this podcast and walk into the world tomorrow, wherever you see a young person, again, truly witness them, um, and marvel in whatever you witness. That there are things that kids are communicating every day, and it's not always speech, right?

Um, but there are things that young people are communicating. You know, I watched, um, a kid at the science [00:33:00] fair. Um, again, you know, Kass and I were at the science fair, and I watched a kid at the science fair, um, measure the amount of food dye in Doritos, and I love Doritos. Um, and so, um, so this was shocking news to me. Um- But, but to allow myself the time instead of running to the next thing, to just be there and to marvel in her findings. Um, and so marveling in her findings mean that I can encourage her to do more, that I can, you know, create inroads for her to access other, you know, opportunities to study food. And so, like, truly, truly, truly, um, I think that what it means to be in community, what it means to be a part of The Minor Collective is to like, what are kids showing us, and how do we build on that thing?

Olivia: Yeah. I, I- Yeah ... to be in community with both of you is always, always a gift. Um, you have inspired me in ways by reading your work, by getting to pick your [00:34:00] brains, and just getting to learn, um, the way I want to be and flow in this world as a teacher, as a coach, as a mom, as a partner. Um, I, I think that anyone listening to this conversation will leave ready to, um, just pause and think more about their impact and possibilities moving forward. So thank you, both of you, so very much. 

Kass: Oh, thank you so much- Thank you ... for having us. Truly a joy to talk with you, Livi. 

Cornelius: Yeah. 

Olivia: Yeah. This summer, try Cornelius's two steps: find a young person, truly witness them across all three dimensions of their humanity, and then marvel. Celebrate what you see, support it, and help them build on it. If you're a teacher heading into break, give yourself Kass's gift of whimsy. You have earned it. Share this episode with a colleague who needs to hear it, and follow The Minor Collective. Links are in the show notes. 

Here are three of my key takeaways [00:35:00] from the continued conversation with Kass and Cornelius. First, grace is ferocity's twin. Kass reframes ferocity not as a relentless drive, but as something that lives alongside grace. The radical acceptance of human flaws, the right to rest, and the capacity to forgive ourselves and our colleagues so we can keep doing the work with our whole selves. Second, admitting your feelings isn't admitting defeat. Through Cornelius's story of Joe, the unbreakable seventh-grade skater who fell, cried, and asked his teammate for help, Cornelius teaches us that naming how we feel is not weakness. It's the most beautifully human thing we can do, and it's what builds real community. 

Third, we have to marvel in what children show us. Cornelius' challenge to all of us to truly witness a young person, not just their words, but their doing and their being, [00:36:00] and then marvel. Not just look, but celebrate, augment, and help them expand what they're already bringing into the world. 

Coming up next week on Schoolutions, I'm doing something a little different. I'm sitting with the big ideas from this season, the threads that have run through every conversation. I'm also sharing a vision that I am so passionate about, one that is at the heart of what season six will be: for teachers, by teachers, and forever getting better. That theme is close to my heart for a lot of reasons, including the book I've been pouring myself into that's coming your way spring of 2027. I cannot wait to share more. For now, rest, rejuvenate, find your spark, and know that this community, you, me, Kass, Cornelius, everyone else listening, we are truly what's unshakable. I can't wait to see you next week. 

Schoolutions Podcast is created, produced, and [00:37:00] edited by me, Olivia Wahl. Thank you to my older son, Benjamin, who created the music playing in the background. You can follow and listen to Schoolutions wherever you get your podcasts or subscribe to never miss an episode and watch on YouTube. Thank you again to my guests, Cornelius and Dr. Kass Minor, for reminding us that when we treat teachers and children as full human beings, not cogs in a machine, school becomes a place where everyone learns, everyone belongs, and community becomes the most unshakable force in uncertain times.

And if you are ready to grow alongside your children, book a coaching session with me at oliviawahl.com. We'll unlock the expert who is already within you and surround you with a community of educators committed to forever getting better through collective expertise. For the remainder of season five, you can tune in Monday and Friday for part one and part two of my guest conversations with the best evidence-based, classroom-ready strategies that you can apply right away [00:38:00] to better the lives of the children in your care. I will have one more 60-second bite-sized piece of learning from our conversation that will be waiting for you on Wednesday to share. Take care, and thank you for forever getting better with me. I'll see you next week

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Olivia Wahl

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