Olivia: [00:00:00] What if the smartest person in your building isn't the principal, the superintendent, or the outside consultant? It's the room itself. Here are three questions that I invite you to think about as you listen: What does real sustainable learning look and feel like in a school building? How do the mastermind groups you're going to learn about work? And a third question to consider: How can you use what you learn from this conversation to address the two problems that surface again and again in schools?
Schoolutions is the podcast for educators and caregivers who are ready to grow alongside their children. Each episode delivers research-backed strategies rooted in the five practices of expert teachers, so every student finds their spark and receives the support they need to thrive.
I am [00:01:00] Olivia Wahl, and in this episode, you'll discover how a peer-driven leadership model can reinforce handing expertise back to the people doing the work. And who better to teach us about how to do that than Jenn David-Lang? Jenn has spent over 20 years supporting school leaders. She is the founder of The Main Idea and runs Masterminds, peer-led communities where leaders solve their own problems rather than being handed answers. Welcome to the podcast, Jenn.
Jenn: Thank you, Olivia. I really appreciate that.
Olivia: This is a high honor to be in conversation with you. I have followed your work for many, many, many years. I use your Main Idea summaries with leaders and coaches and teachers that I'm serving as a coach myself. And, um, we're going to have a conversation not just about The Main Idea, but also the Mastermind groups that you facilitate, because it's all about [00:02:00] recognizing expertise within ourselves and that collective wisdom. So let's start off. You know, what has your path been going from teaching in the classroom to leadership?
Jenn: Um, I was a leader very young. Um, right out of college, I started, uh, an educational nonprofit. Back then it was called Summer Bridge. Now it is called Breakthrough. And that is all about almost peers teaching peers. We hire high school and college students to teach middle school students during the summer, and then tutor them throughout the year. So I was a very young, you know, age 22, 23, right out of college in a leadership position. I also spent many years teaching, too, but I had that experience right away, and I think that got me to, to take the, the leadership of young people seriously because it's how I was treated as well.
Olivia: Then what inspired you to launch The Main Idea [00:03:00] in 2007?
Jenn: So I knew that lawyers and doctors read abstracts, right, to keep themselves current, and you would never go to a doctor who hadn't read anything for 20 years, right? And yet I was seeing that school leaders were very busy with the day-to-day demands of their jobs and just didn't have the time to read, and they didn't know...you know, back then there used to be physical catalogs that were several inches thick from different publishers, and they just didn't know which books to read. And when they did crack open a book at 11:00 PM at night, it seemed like, um, they weren't going to stay awake and read. So, um, and when I surveyed leaders, they really only read one or two books a year.
So I just had a simple idea to read lots of education and leadership books and summarize just one a month. And then at the end of the book, give leaders ideas for how to bring the book's ideas into their schools, how to lead PD or how to make the ideas applicable. And I just started doing [00:04:00] it one month at a time, mostly with school leaders, but a range of educators throughout the world, and it's a subscription service. And now I have hundreds of, um, education and leadership book summaries in the library that people have access to. So I was just trying to support the professional learning of leaders and other, um, other educators.
Olivia: I'll tell you, I look forward to the 15th of every month because your name pops into my inbox with the summary on that day. And so then let's shift a little bit because I often, I work with teachers who feel so frustrated sometimes when outside experts come in and say, "This is the way to do this now", and it's a change perhaps in their practice. It's not that they're not receptive, but often I feel like the why behind the practices is not clear for the people trying to implement the said [00:05:00] practices. And so when we're thinking about that, why does the idea of expertise need to be driven from within the community itself?
Jenn: Well, I think, you know, real learning isn't what happens in-- Real sustainable learning isn't something that happens in one professional learning session, even one session a month after school. I think to really move the needle on teaching and learning in schools, it has to be the habitual daily and weekly learning, whether that's teachers sitting around a table as part of a PLC learning from each other, um, lunch and learns led by teachers who teach the same students in the same context where you're teaching.
Um, uh, it is regular coaches who are observing over and over again and giving feedback and know the goals of the school and the lifeblood of the school. Um, but it really is the [00:06:00] ongoing learning. Even, um, you know, when you have good leaders who always ask the same reflective questions after they observe a lesson, right? You know, let's say, "What did the students learn and how do you know?" And so it's that internalized questions that teachers ask themselves, right? After you teach a lesson, do you have the little principle or the little questions on your shoulder, and are you answering those too?
That reflecting on your own teaching is a much more seamless and sustained way of, of learning than, than having an outside professional come for one or two times. And I don't knock outside professionals. They certainly bring a fresh eye in many things, but in terms of, you know, s- real sustained learning.
Olivia: Yeah. I, I think too it's fascinating. I was in conversation with John Hattie, and he pointed out that if you are trying to be reflective on your own practice as a classroom teacher or leader, you only see a certain percentage of what's happening. So I remember after hearing that, I [00:07:00] reframed my coaching role for educators of, "Look, I, I can be a second set of eyes and ears in your space. What do you want me looking and listening for based on what you're curious about or you want more information?" So I think we can build that collective wisdom in spaces together if it's not that hierarchy of top-down. Um, so let's break down the Mastermind Model because this is so fascinating to me. How would you define mastermind groups for listeners?
Jenn: So yeah. So I started The Main Idea in 2007, and then I always had this idea, why don't we have leaders learn together in community, right? We have students learn in groups. We have teachers learn in groups. Why don't we have leaders learn in groups? And I was on Zoom long before the pandemic, but that was the big obstacle. I thought, "Who's gonna learn this weird thing called Zoom?" You know, so that I could bring leaders together from, you know, [00:08:00] Alaska, Texas, and New Hampshire to, to learn from each other.
And then the pandemic struck . And so within three weeks, I started a Mastermind group. I certainly did not come up with the concept. Educators did not. It is a concept that exists in many different professions where, you know, it's basically, you know, bringing people together to learn from others in your field.
Olivia: How many leaders come together at a time? How often do you meet? What topics do you study, or how are topics even chosen?
Jenn: Yeah, so I, um, I cap the groups at, at 15 each and I will just walk you through... This is the structure. It's an hour. People get on the call, we check in, um, often sharing something that's worked well in the last few weeks or connected to the topic.
Um, and then I have the, you know, the topic of the week, and it is-- We meet every other week, the topic of the, the bi-week, bi-weekly topic. [00:09:00] And I mean, it's everything from how do you prioritize your time and improve your time management? How do you run a meeting that gets results? How do you give feedback that sticks?
How do you manage, uh, difficult conversations with grace? Uh, how do you create a culture of accountability? Um, how can your walkthroughs truly improve teaching and learning? You know, topics like that. Um, and, uh, we-- I, what I do is I research what a lot of the experts say and include my own ideas, and I write a one-pager, um, sometimes it's two.
And so everybody reads on the call. It's a- called a live read. I do it in a lot of my professional learning sessions. So there's no homework, you just, you do it right there. Everyone goes quiet. It really takes five minutes, and it's a great strategy for any meeting because whenever you assign people to read something or do something before the meeting, inevitably there's a few people who don't, right?
So we read, and [00:10:00] then there's some kind of protocol or structure to discuss the content of the reading. And it's not just what the John Hatties, you know, or the, um, Doug Fishers, you know, whoever I've quoted in the reading. It's, it's the people in the room. They share their own experience. If the topic is on coaching teachers, you know, this is my experience of what works well, or this is my experience of what to avoid.
And I say the smartest person in the room is the room, and it is because, you know, there are leaders who have two, three, five, 34 years of experience leading. Um, and then, um, I have a time which I call the think tank time, where one person at a time shares a problem of practice. And it can be anything from, um, "There's a toxic teacher on my fourth-grade team.
I don't know what to do," or, "I'm onboarding a new assistant principal who's not from this district, you know, what's the best way to do that?" And within 15 minutes we all, um, brainstorm ideas, suggestions, questions, [00:11:00] wonderings. Um, and then we always take a moment for people to jot down either a takeaway or a commitment because John Dewey didn't exactly say this, but he said something like, "We actually don't learn by doing. We learn by reflecting on doing." So it's just ... carving out that moment of reflection. So these all, there are breakouts, there are polls, there's brainstorm- you know, there's a lot going on. The hour goes fast. And then we're gonna meet in two other weeks. So that's sort of the structure of the Mastermind.
Olivia: That is beautiful. I can picture it happening. How many groups do you have running at the same time over a month?
Jenn: Um, I have six, uh, you know, mixed groups. Main idea, you know, people from all over, and then I have three other outside groups that contract me to do, you know, just with their leadership, you know, where I meet with them. So I, I have about nine groups right now.
Olivia: What you, uh, Jenn, what you just described is what I would also love to see more of within our schools, [00:12:00] that idea of an hour structure. But also you respect people's time, and I think sometimes our educators feel like the meeting could've been an email. Um, but also educators are expected to read a lot, to spend a lot of time outside of the live moments with children in their space.
And the fact that you build that reading in, offer reflection time, process, problems of practice, it's just a beautiful model. Um, and I'm glad you shared about the think tank because I think that's a- another part of it that's really important to highlight. We're going to wrap part one with a lightning round, and I'm going to ask you some questions, and just give your gut response to the questions.
Uh, first, what is a topic that comes up over and over and over again with the Mastermind groups?
Jenn: Well, I'm gonna share the topics that come up in the think tank. Those are the ones that the leaders bring up.
Olivia: Perfect. Yeah. So
Jenn: Two topics in [00:13:00] schools that sort of, you know, everything boils down to this, is one, how do you get teachers or staff to do what they don't wanna do or won't do, right? That really, how do you get people to do stuff in, uh, in common everyday language. And then two, it's really how do you handle interpersonal issues, right? You know, we all go, we get our master's in teaching, we get our degrees in leadership, and there aren't enough courses taught in how do you get people to do stuff, like influence, right?
The real crux of leadership. And how do you manage? 'Cause schools are about people, right? We're not, we're not producing cans of Coca-Cola, right? We are trying to impact student learning, and that involves working with students, staff, teachers, families, leaders- it's all about people work. So those are two topics that come up over and over in the think tank.
Olivia: Yeah, that makes sense. What do you do outside of this work to fuel yourself as a facilitator?
Jenn: Well, I certainly read a lot, [00:14:00] and- And the way I read is I read books and I think, "How would I translate this into, um, you know, activities that would engage people with this learning?" You know, I think I did that when I was a classroom teacher, you know? Whenever I was learning something, how would I teach this? So it's sort of like that. And then I do try to attend online PD as a participant so that I can learn what other people are doing and how they are most effectively, um, facilitating new learning.
Olivia: So let's go back. You, you offered up those two topics that continuously come up in the think tank. What are some great solutions to getting people to do what they don't want to do, as well as interpersonal issues?
Jenn: Well, it's funny. Um, one of the groups I facilitate is a group of aspiring leaders, so it's like, you know, first-time, time leaders. And so someone'll come in a think tank and talk about a problem of this one teacher just won't do X, Y, or Z.
And at first, wh- when [00:15:00] we start out, you know, in September, everybody says, "Well, just tell the principal to tell them to do it," right? You know? That's the gut reaction, right? You know, where you think, you know, with the title you can just tell people. And I think it comes down to: How do you build your, your influence?
You know, it starts long before the issue comes up with how do you build your credibility and your trust? How do you treat the, um, employee like a, a person, not just a fourth-grade teacher, you know, or a paraprofessional? How do we treat people with respect? Um, and then, you know, a big question is: Is this an issue of skill or is this a question of will? Taking a deep dive into the why of the problem before you start solving it. I think as educators we tend to jump into the solutions before we fully understand what's fueling the problem.
Olivia: Yeah. That is so well said, and the idea of it, it's not about fixing, it's about asking [00:16:00] questions and getting to that why. What's the hesitation? What's your not yet? I've heard leaders say that, "What, why? What, what's going on that's preventing you from jumping in?" Um, and, and as a coach, teachers always have a reason. If we take a curiosity stance, whether it's family needs, whether it's, "Look, you may be here now, but there were five people before you over the last five years- Yeah
and I am not going to do just because you tell me to." And they're right. They are right. That idea of trust and safety and vulnerability is so valid. Um, what's a leadership skill or a facilitator skill you are continuing to hone in your practice?
Jenn: I am still really not good many years later at shutting up and um, you know, I said the smartest person in the room is the room, and I deeply believe that. I mean, I am constantly scribbling down ideas when [00:17:00] other people are talking, and a great deal of my knowledge is from other people. Um, but I need to learn to speak less. I have already provided a lot of content with these one or two-pagers that I write, and, um, you know, I often am more of a more is more person, more is more learner when it comes to my own learning, but adults learn in a wide range of ways. And so I think being able to let the conversation go, um, is a skill I'm still working on.
Olivia: Yeah. What, what, what have you taken from the Mastermind groups, um, i- wisdom-wise into your practice?
Jenn: You know, that it just, it really is about relationships, and it sounds corny. It sounds, you know ... But, but when you drill down into the like how do I operationalize that? Like, what does that look like? You know, from small things like, you know, when you're walking down the hallway as a leader and you have a million to-do items in your brain, looking up and greeting every teacher, well, [00:18:00] student in the hallway. Um, when you are observing teachers, it feels like so much time, but it's really worth doing a full round observing every teacher and only sharing positive feedback.
Not, "Good job," but, "Because you organized the students in these types of groups, I saw Juan speak up, and I've never seen him speak up before." Like, really concrete. You do a h- And, and the teacher's like, "Wait, and what else?" You go, "That's it." You know, you build so much rapport and confidence by doing something like that. So really breaking down not some, like, flouncy, "Oh, relationships matter. Relationships..." No, but like what actually should I be doing on a day-to-day basis to build the relationships so that my- I have a foundation for strong instructional leadership?
Olivia: I, I want to just process what you said just now because I think it's huge. If a leader takes the time to go through every classroom with a very specific lens, let's go to relationships, [00:19:00] and then offer very specific feedback, it doesn't even have to be improvement feedback, but it can't be just praise, like, "Good job," or, "Great." This, Jenn, translates right into the classroom. Our students, that's the modeling that our teachers need and that our students need to see.
That specific feedback, because you did this, this was the result. And if it's tied to the lens that the building is focusing on, more the better. Um, this has been fascinating, and I, I, again, wanna give two shout-outs. The Main Idea summaries, I love the summary within a summary, and I love the summary. It's just so profound how they can be used across many, many different venues with leaders, teachers, families. Uh, I even use them to have conversations, especially at the high school and middle school level, with kids. Like, here's some why th- that this [00:20:00] can help, and you do that. You do that heavy lifting for us, and I am forever grateful. Um, I'm excited to continue th- the conversation in part two. Thank you, Jenn.
Jenn: Thank you. I appreciate it.
Olivia: With The Main Idea and Mastermind groups, Jenn David-Lang didn't build a new kind of expertise into schools. She built a structure that lets the expertise already there come out. That is exactly the belief behind my own work and my upcoming book, Forever Getting Better: 5 Essential Practices for Reclaiming Teacher Expertise. Hopefully, it'll be in your hands by June of 2027. I am hoping this conversation has you thinking about how to build that kind of peer-driven culture in your own school or district. So let's get in touch. You can find me at oliviawahl.com. Click on the Coaching and Consulting tab, and we can talk about how we can start a thought partnership together. Join us for part two, [00:21:00] where we talk about her (Jenn’s) think tank model and what it actually takes for leaders to practice their expertise in real time.
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