Olivia: [00:00:00] Would you admit a real problem in front of the person who evaluates you? Jenn David-Lang says that question decides whether a leadership team ever actually grows. Here are three questions that I'm offering you to think about while you're listening. What did you learn about the consultancy protocol and what makes it effective or not? What are three factors that truly motivate adults and students to learn? And what do teachers and leaders need to set time aside for to truly protect in order to grow as learners?
Schoolutions is the podcast for educators and caregivers who are ready to grow alongside their children. Each episode delivers research-backed strategies rooted in the five practices of expert teachers, so every student finds their spark and receives the support they need to thrive [00:01:00] Welcome back, listeners. I'm Olivia Wahl, and this is a continued conversation with Jenn David-Lang. We are talking about peer-driven leadership and how it can reinforce handing expertise back to the people doing the work. Welcome back, Jenn.
Jenn: Thank you so much for having me back.
Olivia: Yeah. I've been thinking a lot about, uh, the think tank model that you shared in part one, and I'd like to go a little bit deeper with that. How do leaders bring back what's going well and what can still be improved into think tank conversations?
Jenn: Well, there's two ways, and I don't think you meant this by the question, but a lot of leaders take the think tank concept and they bring it to help people at their schools solve problems in community at their school. So it's a, it's basically from the consultancy protocol, which I did not make up, which is, you know, 45 minutes. I condensed it [00:02:00] down to 15 minutes. And so I have that protocol, and I share it with the leaders, and they'll bring it back to their school. So you could have a group of, let's say, new teachers.
Let's say they meet once a month after school on a Tuesday, right? So imagine the power of a newer teacher saying, "You know, this is a challenge that I'm having at the beginning of the year. I'm having trouble with the start of class. Everyone comes in all ru- unruly, and how do I get them to settle down?" And they s- they share the challenge, and then it's a very specific protocol where they have, the presenter has two minutes to share their challenge or their issue. Then the rest of the group has three minutes to ask clarifying questions. We're not solving anything, but just making sure they understand.
So, Olivia, is this in all of your classes or just your second-period algebra class? You know, just clarifying questions that the presenter can answer. And then the presenter goes silent, and the rest of the people have discussions like, "Oh, I just read an article about blah, blah, blah," or, "Oh, I was [00:03:00] observing in Mrs. Brown's class, and this is how she settles down kids," or, "Oh, I'm struggling with that, too, and I've been asking myself these questions." And so people talk for about eight minutes with ideas, questions, wonderings, and the presenter is usually scribbling furiously. And then the presenter comes back and has two minutes to share out of everything that was talked about, what resonates with you?
What do you wanna take with you? Um, so it's a very short, simple protocol. You can adapt it, right? If you have more time, you can get more into, well, what exactly is the problem, right? The kids aren't settling down. What, what is the issue, right? Is it a management issue? Is it an interpersonal issue? Is it a structure issue? Um, you know, is it the fact that, you know, you're in a different classroom every period? You know what? Get into the why if you have more time. And at the other end, rather than the presenter just having two minutes to share what resonated, they could actually map out, like, an action plan. So that's a way that the str- that people bring the structure back to the school.[00:04:00]
Olivia: That is incredible, and your very clear explanation is helpful for me. I'm sure it's gonna be helpful for listeners as well. And it makes me wonder who then could be at that table? Who should be? Not just new teachers. Uh, I'm thinking potentially superintendents, principals, assistant principals, coaches. What are your thoughts about people that are involved in these think tank meetings?
Jenn: If your goal is coaching and improvement, you have to be careful about the supervisor being in the room with the supervisee. So whether that's, you know, the monthly principal meeting with the superintendent there, or, you know, the history department with the history chair, or the assistant principal who oversees history, or the principal, right?
So part of what works in the think tank, in the Mastermind, is that people feel comfortable being vulnerable and [00:05:00] sharing. They're literally sharing a problem, right? "I cannot get the kids to settle down. I have so much trouble teaching this concept, I just can't get it to s- to s- to, um, take hold." You know, whatever the problem is, whether it's a teacher or a leader.
So I think you do have to be a little careful about not having the supervisor there. You could have a coach. Um, but it could certainly be a mix. In my Mastermind, it's people from all over the country, and so I have superintendents, assistant superintendents, but not of each other. Principals, assistant principals, and the different perspectives are very useful in solving a problem. You know, an assistant principal will suggest something, and then a superintendent will say, "Well, have you thought about it from the district's perspective?" Which is great, but you often don't have that in a school or in a single school district.
Olivia: But this also begs the question, then, of superintendents and principals or assistant principals that sit in a more evaluative role, because coaching is not evaluative. How are they taking a [00:06:00] stance to set up communities that teachers, or where teachers can be more vulnerable and name part problems of practice without feeling like they'll get into trouble? Uh, but point taken. It, it does make sense. You know, choose who's in the room very carefully and thoughtfully. Jenn, I, I'm thinking a lot about students, and something we hear a lot is we want students to have that sense of agency, to have autonomy over their learning. How, then, do we work backwards and ensure that teachers and leaders have that same sense of agency to want to learn?
Jenn: Well, it's interesting. You touch a little bit with the autonomy on Deci and Ryan's research, uh, about motivation and self-determination, and the things that motivate people internally, not the external carrot, like if you come to this staff PD you'll get bagels or donuts, right? But the internal motivation, it, um, happens according to [Richard Ryan and Edward Deci’s] research [00:07:00] when there are three things present: a sense of competence, autonomy, and relatedness. And learning in community, like a Mastermind, has those three things, that you're b- you're literally building competence, right? You know, you're not just sitting around ta- you know, doing a kid talk where, "Oh yeah, this kid's driving me crazy."
"Me too." No, you're building competence. We're reading, we're learning. And then autonomy, it's very differentiated. Different people are getting different things, right? When I'm sharing my problem of practice, it looks different from your problem of practice. Um, you know, the readings that I put together have a lot of links. There's a lot of different types of learning, and it's autonomous. You're choosing to be there. And then relatedness, right? There's a big part of motivation that comes from learning or with other people. And so the idea, you're not just, "Okay, I'm carving out 30 minutes to sit by myself and read this article," but, "I'm carving out time to learn with others."
So it checks all of those boxes. But I do think that a big part of motivation for any type of professional learning [00:08:00] or coaching is when educators walk away with real ideas. Yeah. And so, you know, a lot of the reading and the conversation, it's not theoretical. It's not the history of education or policy. It's like, "What can I do in my classroom, in my school tomorrow, the next week, the next month?" So as soon as people walk away with ideas that not only improve their schools, but actually usually help you save time, right?
So if you're learning how to manage a difficult conversation, think about the 20 hours you didn't spend from botching one, right? If you're learning how to run an effective professional learning session, think about all the credibility you've loft- lost with all the teachers by leading a poor one that, that wastes everyone's time, or it's an email, like you said. So by, by getting very concrete ideas, you are improving your leadership, your school, and you're also saving yourself and others time. And so when you find something useful, then that motivates you to do it again. And [00:09:00] so, you know, I think that's how we have to think about a lot of professional learning, right? Is this actually useful? And if so, we don't need the donut holes, you know? Uh, and they're nice, but,
Olivia: Yeah, maybe coffee. I think, I think we could always use coffee. Um, and I, and what is the saying? Evidence begets confidence. And so I think the more evidence of people showing up and being curious and wanting to learn, that also builds confidence that we are choosing relevant topics, that it's on people's radar, and they will only come up if people feel safe to be real in that community. And so the idea of, again, safety, vulnerability, taking risks together. A huge aspect of Masterminds is that leaders are taking a risk by being vulnerable with others and saying what is not working well for them. Um, and, and I appreciate that. I think that it's that [00:10:00] symmetry, some people call it parallel practice.
We want every part, every layer of the system living as learners, and that's what you believe and what- why I'm so drawn to you and your work. Let's end part two talking about what it feels like for leaders to be able to hone and develop their own expertise. Teachers need time to practice. Students need time to practice. How does or how do Mastermind groups offer leaders time to practice in real time?
Jenn: Well, there's a couple of things. You know, when you think about honing expertise, and it goes a little bit back to the John Dewey quote I shared in the first episode, just carving out time to reflect. You know, um, some of my Mastermind groups meet afternoon, evening, but most of them during the day. So taking 9:00 AM to 10:00 AM to close the door. There is no way [00:11:00] most leaders are taking 9:00 AM to 10:00 AM to think about their practice and reflect, right? And so it's like this, I believe that most things in leadership, to get better, you need a habit, right? So the habit of reflection by having this on your calendar, and you can do it yourself, right?
I mean, you can say to your administrative assistant, "Fridays from 9:00 to 9:30, I am gonna read and reflect and write in a journal and, and don't, you know, don't bother me unless the school's burning down." You can do that. It's very hard to do. It's easier to do if it, you know, a group is expecting you to show up. There's more accountability there. But just even taking the time to look at what you're doing and, and reflect on it, because I think sometimes you don't need to read a lot of fancy books or go to a lot of fancy, um, conferences. But I think it was, um, Baruti Kafele who said, "If you keep a regular journal, you will start to see patterns."
But unless you write [00:12:00] it down, you won't. It's very hard to remember exactly how was school different yesterday and Monday and last Friday and l- you know. And so just carving out that time to, to think. You know, I, I remember one leader was in the think tank, and she was talking about some Blue Ribbon school, amazing school, but, um, the, the culture, the staff culture was getting a bit toxic, and she was tracing it to some, some gossip.
And she was in the middle of sharing this challenge and asking for help- And she realized that at the school they introduced, I think it's called a 48-hour rule, where if you have an issue with someone, don't talk to your peers, don't bring it to the principal or the assistant principal. You have 48 hours to bring it directly to the person, and that's an expe- expectation, like a norm. And you know what? Her school is so strong and she has so little turnover, she had forgot to reintroduce this at the beginning of the year, and there were a couple of new teachers. And she just literally realized it. Nobody came in with any expertise. She just realized it herself. So I think just carving [00:13:00] out space. It doesn't have to be super sexy or super deep. It's just carving out time to reflect on what you're doing.
Olivia: Yeah. Well said. And listeners, if you have not heard of The Main Idea, it, it is so powerful and it is a resource every month at your fingertips, and you have a beautiful collection of resources on your website. I will make sure to tuck links to your website in the show notes so everyone can have access to this information. And you also do share about the Mastermind groups on the website as well. Uh, Jenn, thank you for taking the time, and it is such a high honor to have you kicking off season six with this idea of collective wisdom, shared expertise, and everyone taking a learning stance within our school system. So thank you. Take care.
Jenn: Thank you. Thank you, Livi, for all this work you're doing and sharing all of your hard-earned knowledge [00:14:00] and expertise with everyone, so thank you.
Olivia: Yeah. Take care. Jenn's story about that one leader, the one who realized mid-think tank exactly what her school needed without anyone handing her the answer. The expert is within us. We do not need to be handed answers. We need an environment where we can think on our own and be with people that ask us questions to get to the heart of what is actually going on.
If you're a leader ready to build that kind of community in your own school or district, I would love to partner with you. Reach out at oliviawahl.com, click on the coaching and consulting tab, and we can start the conversation. Make sure to follow Schoolutions on socials @schoolutionspodcast. This entire season, guests are going to share how they bring the five essential practices from my book to life in their own schools.
Next week, I'm doing something a little different. You're going to hear [00:15:00] from 17 teachers who were attending the Civics for Colorado Summer Institute. They all answer the question: What is it like to teach civics and history at the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence? It's a two-part conversation about the challenges these teachers face and their hopes for the future of civics instruction. Make sure not to miss it.
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