Camilo Miguel Jr. - Founder & CEO, Mast Capital

Camilo Miguel Jr. is the Founder and CEO of Mast Capital, a vertically integrated real estate investment and development firm he established in 2006. He got his start in 2004 when industry acquaintances took him under their wing on his first project — an experience that instilled a strong belief in mentorship that he actively pays forward today.

Before launching Mast Capital, Miguel founded Vertica Group, a land investment and strategic development firm, and co-founded Clear Title Group, a real estate title insurance company. Those early ventures gave him first-hand exposure to every corner of the industry — from structuring bridge loans and buying distressed debt, to developing and renovating hotels, multifamily buildings, office, and retail.

Over nearly 20 years he has grown Mast Capital into one of South Florida's most prominent developers, with a portfolio worth more than $3.5 billion concentrated in high-barrier-to-entry markets. He leads a team of ~40 people entirely focused on premium residential, commercial, and hospitality properties.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:13

We got Camilo Miguel Jr. here. We've been wanting to get you on the podcast for a long time. Is that true? It is. It is. Are you just trying to make me feel good? No, absolutely not. We really, we really want you like one of the probably the when we were first starting out, it's like, if we can get him, like this is that's a big one.

SPEAKER_03 0:32

Yeah, he was on the list for sure.

SPEAKER_04 0:33

Yeah. So here we go. Five almost four and a half years into this. Yeah. We finally got you on the podcast. So we're doing something right, I guess, Ben. I guess. Well, uh, welcome, Camilo. Let's start off uh with the cheers, by the way. Welcome to Bureau Central. Yes, cheers. Cheers, guys.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Cheers.

SPEAKER_04 0:51

We're sipping a little tequila today.

SPEAKER_03 0:54

Um did you did you order this specific one, by the way? I was given a list, and I said I'll take this. I mean it's like one of our new favorite choices here.

SPEAKER_04 1:02

Yeah, so uh cheers to Vinya for supplying the beverages. Do you know Vinya on Keepiscane? Yeah, yeah, you've been there? No, but I yeah. Uh do you live on the Keepuscane? No, I live in Coral Gables. Oh, okay. But uh yeah, they're they're a new uh drink sponsor, so cheers. Cheers to them.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

We're drinking uh Reserva de la Familia. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 1:22

Again, again, which is a great thing to say. We're on a great run with this. And uh welcome to Bureau. And by the way, just we got we got to kick this off. We have an announcement to make that uh Greenberg Targ is gonna be our new title sponsor for the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

That's great. We do a lot of work with Greenberg.

SPEAKER_04 1:36

Yeah, so Iris and uh and Carlos uh have both been guests on the podcast. I've known Iris for a long time and they really love what we're doing. So uh huge validation for us. Shout out to Greenberg for making this happen and uh especially Iris and uh and and Carlos. Hell yeah. Two two rock stars. Two rock stars, right? Yeah, absolutely. Cool. Um well Camilo, this is uh this is uh a podcast about you. Um you know we uh we try to do our best research here on on who you are, but we really want to get into the the the people that made you, your parents, your grandparents, and uh it's really a biography. Okay, so uh you mentioned that your parents for are from Columbia, Colombia.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:21

Um are you were you born there?

SPEAKER_01 2:23

No, no, I was actually born in Manhasset, Long Island.

SPEAKER_04 2:26

Manhasset, Long Island. How long were you up there for?

SPEAKER_01 2:28

I really never lived there. Uh we ended up moving and living here in Miami for because you said Long Island like you were from Long Long Island.

SPEAKER_04 2:35

Oh, he he knew the accent. Yeah, I didn't know I didn't pick it up. I picked up on that a little bit. Uh how long did you live there for?

SPEAKER_01 2:42

Not very long. I mean, I was born there and then we moved here right away.

SPEAKER_04 2:45

Okay. Yeah. And your parents had lived up there in Long Island for how long?

SPEAKER_01 2:49

My my family was visiting and then something happened, and my mom had me up there because the cut the pregnancy got a little complicated. She couldn't travel back.

SPEAKER_04 2:56

Oh, because she couldn't travel back to Colombia? To Miami. To Miami. Oh, I got you. So you your parents had been living here in Miami.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

Yeah, and and and we lived a little bit of time in Venezuela too, actually.

SPEAKER_04 3:06

Okay. Um, and so you so tell me a little bit about your parents. What uh where were they they grew up in Colombia? What kind of business were they in doing here?

SPEAKER_01 3:17

My my my my father, my grandparents on my father's side migrated to Colombia actually from from Lebanon and Syria. Oh wow and my mother's too, but and they had migrated there back in the 1930s, and my mother's family was like 1940s, 1950s. And then um they were born there and they lived there and they were brought up there.

SPEAKER_04 3:39

But um so did you have a do you have did you have a uh a Middle Eastern upbringing in in some ways with in terms of like culture and foods that you were eating?

SPEAKER_01 3:51

In some ways. I never met my grandfathers, either of them. I met both my grandmothers, grew up with both of them in my life, which was nice, and so they brought kind of like that Middle Eastern feel to to our home, but really was more raised with from a Colombian perspective, from a Hispanic perspective, um, and and really related more to that.

SPEAKER_04 4:10

And you grew up in Barranquilla? No, your grandparents, your parents grew up in Barranquilla, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:16

You grew up here?

SPEAKER_01 4:17

I grew up here in Miami.

SPEAKER_03 4:18

So you're basically born and raised Miami guy.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Not born, but pretty much raised exactly.

SPEAKER_03 4:23

Close enough, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 4:24

And uh, and so what what kind of business were your parents in in in Colombia and what brought them to the United States?

SPEAKER_01 4:31

So my father was actually in a simple business. He was a very big uh distributor of educational books. In Colombia, in in Mexico, Venezuela, Dominican Republic, uh Panama, okay. Um many different countries. What kind of books? It's just educational books, schoolbooks, dictionaries, uh, encyclopedias, textbooks for classes. I mean, just simple uh kind of grassroots type stuff. That's very different than what I do, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_03 4:59

Yeah, it's an interesting business. It's almost like having like a government contract, I feel like. In some cases, yeah. Very steady. Was he but he started that business or he started that business? Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

And he my mother my mother and him worked on it together and they built it together and it was.

SPEAKER_03 5:14

So entrepreneurs.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

So entrepreneurs, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:16

They were. It's in the genes.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

My father was very much an entrepreneur.

SPEAKER_03 5:20

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_04 5:21

And uh, and so he grew that business, and then did he did did he sell that business in Colombia and then move here?

SPEAKER_01 5:28

He sold parts of it and then he he just liquidated other parts of it and he retired many, many years ago. I mean, my father is now 88.

SPEAKER_04 5:37

Okay, still going strong, 88. That's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

He retired many years ago, like over 20 years ago. And I I I just turned 50 not too long ago.

SPEAKER_04 5:46

Okay. Um, and uh, and your dad moved to Miami for what reason?

SPEAKER_01 5:52

Just life. Yeah. My father went to high school actually here. He went to a boarding school in New Jersey. Okay. Um, that's where he went to high school. So it was a boarding school there. And then uh, so he, you know, the US to him was was also home.

SPEAKER_04 6:06

Did he start the the business here in the United States or in Columbia?

SPEAKER_01 6:10

He never did much here in the United States.

SPEAKER_04 6:12

Okay, gotcha. Yeah, and you get in they both then they ran the business out of uh Barranquilla.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

No, they ran the business out of whichever country, but the the they ended up moving their headquarters over to Caracas actually for for many years.

SPEAKER_04 6:25

Oh, okay. So they he ended up living in Caracas for a while. Yeah, all right, cool. And then eventually makes his way to Miami. Yep. Um, has you and you have four siblings? Is it four siblings?

SPEAKER_01 6:37

I have four sisters. I have two older sisters and two younger siblings. Oh shit, how was that growing up? No brothers. It was my dad and I against the world. Dude, but I mean, like you're going how how much what's the age difference? Um my younger ones are two years age difference, and then my older ones are much are like eight and more.

SPEAKER_04 6:58

Okay, yeah, but we're all very close. We're all very close. Can you imagine growing up having four sisters? Like, it's just a constant pool of like I'd be pranking the shit out of a month.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

There was a lot of that, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_04 7:12

That's uh it was fun though.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

You learn a lot. I bet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_04 7:16

For sure. Dang. That's big.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

So uh, where'd you grow up here in Miami? You know, when we first lived here, we lived out west in Calusa Country Club. I don't know if you know where that is. No, that's in Kendall, but like West Kendall. Okay. And it's a used, I don't know if the golf the golf course is not there anymore, I don't think, but it was a big golf course, and we lived on that golf course, but that was way west. Um, and then we moved to there's a community called Galloway Glen, which is right behind Baptist Hospital off 87th and 102nd. So not too far from let's say Killian. Uh-huh. School Killian. Yep. And um, but I went to, I mean, schools that don't exist anymore, like uh Heritage School. I went to I ended up going to high school actually, and then I went to Palmer for junior high, and then I went before it was Palmer Trinity, and then I went to Gulliver for high school and I graduated from Gulliver.

SPEAKER_04 8:06

From Gulliver. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:08

Um play any sports growing up?

SPEAKER_01 8:11

I played a lot of sports. I tried a lot of sports, but I ended up playing football throughout high school.

SPEAKER_04 8:15

Okay. What position?

SPEAKER_01 8:17

Defensive corner.

SPEAKER_03 8:18

Nice.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

Yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_03 8:19

I never played football. Did you play football? No, we didn't. Our school was too small for a football team. They always tried to meet get me to play because I was big. Yeah. But I was like, dude, I'm going snowboard, you know? I'm not wearing your silly tights.

SPEAKER_04 8:31

And so, what other sports did you like though?

SPEAKER_01 8:33

I did track and field. I did some baseball, which I didn't enjoy. Yeah. Um, I really just love football.

SPEAKER_04 8:38

Football?

SPEAKER_01 8:39

Yeah, I just like it's constantly moving, you know, very physical. It was fun.

SPEAKER_03 8:43

All right. Yeah, no, you had no brothers to beat up at home.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

So no, no brothers to beat up or get beat by the home. Get beat now, yeah, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 8:50

Gotta get that out. Were you uh were you an entrepreneur as a kid? Did you try, did you have any early jobs or start any businesses or anything?

SPEAKER_01 8:57

You know, I I always wanted to just do my own thing for sure. I always just had this entrepreneurial mindset because I wasn't a big fan of answer of answering to people. So I kind of always tried to do my own thing.

SPEAKER_04 9:08

Well, we what did you have some businesses that you tried to start or some hustles in high school?

SPEAKER_01 9:13

I did everything. I mowed people's lawns with my friends. I sold chocolate bars to neighbors. Um, we anything and everything. We we kind of tried it, and some of it was fun and some of it was not so fun.

SPEAKER_03 9:26

So what was the least fun and what was the most fun? Do you remember anything? Mowing people's lawns. Was the least fun? Oh, that was horrible.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

I used to do that. So it looked easy that you actually got into it. It was a lot of work. It's a lot of work.

SPEAKER_03 9:39

Yeah. It takes forever.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

It it does, and then cleaning up after yourself, it's a it's a whole thing.

SPEAKER_03 9:44

What was the most fun?

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Um I enjoy just like just coming up with these ideas, but like even just going around, we used to buy chocolate bars and do things like that when we were little kids. But that was certainly predates high school. But we used to walk around and just do things like that and sell chocolate bars to our neighbors, and everybody would buy just to be nice.

SPEAKER_03 10:03

Of course, a couple cute kids with chocolate.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

Like, yeah, you gotta. And there were a lot of kids in our neighborhood, so the parents all were really nice.

SPEAKER_04 10:08

That's awesome. Yeah, and did you uh did you have any jobs in high school? I didn't, nothing, huh?

SPEAKER_01 10:13

No, just side hustles, yeah, just just school and uh playing sports, and that's it. Were you a good student? I was not a great student, but I was a good student.

SPEAKER_04 10:26

Like B plus, D, C. What are we talking here? We're we're let's let's just say like B's and some A's. Okay. All right.

SPEAKER_03 10:36

So slightly above us.

SPEAKER_04 10:37

So slightly above our average, a lot above our average. Um, and then uh what uh what subjects did you like?

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Um I really did not like school at all.

SPEAKER_04 10:51

Really? Yeah. Were you good at what what what subjects were?

SPEAKER_01 10:53

I was very good at math and I enjoyed math. Yeah. Um, so I was always it's just math came naturally to me, but I never liked school. What about it? Like what I don't know. I just could see things differently when it came to math. So I just always just naturally was the first one to finish tests that would it would just come easy to me. Uh it's just for me, numbers was always something that just for some reason I always process it quickly.

SPEAKER_04 11:15

So you weren't really challenged in high school with with math?

SPEAKER_01 11:17

I took some more challenging stuff in in math for sure, because the school pushed a little bit. But in today's world, it would be a little bit different. I think you get pushed harder.

SPEAKER_03 11:26

Yeah. What about school didn't you like? Like was uh what turned you off? Like what was the struggle?

SPEAKER_01 11:33

I wouldn't say it was the struggle. I would just say I didn't want to go home and study and do homework. Right. That's true. So that was really my uh my issue.

SPEAKER_03 11:41

You're ready to clock out at 3 p.m. Pretty much. Yeah, I get that. I get that.

SPEAKER_04 11:47

Clock out at 3 p.m., right?

SPEAKER_03 11:49

Yeah, sounds great.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

I know, right? In today's in today's world, there's no clocking out ever. I know, right?

SPEAKER_03 11:54

My daughter's in or yeah, she in first grade, but in even in kindergarten, she was getting homework. And I'm like, oh yeah. It's kindergarten like guys, like what what are we doing?

SPEAKER_04 12:03

Settle down here.

SPEAKER_03 12:04

You get plenty of time all day. I don't remember when we started getting homework, but I don't think it was so middle school.

SPEAKER_04 12:09

Yeah, I don't think so either.

SPEAKER_03 12:10

Like fifth, sixth grade.

SPEAKER_04 12:12

Um, all right. So so high school, and then you decide to go to UM.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

I did. So I went to UM, studied business, graduated from there.

SPEAKER_04 12:22

Um Did you do a lot of traveling when you were in high school? Did your parents take you?

SPEAKER_01 12:26

You know, my my parents, they were they were my parents were a lot of fun because they always tried to keep things exciting. So they would like pick me up at school with my buddies in the car, even when I was in high school and junior high, and we'd go on some random trip if it was to Disney or to somewhere with a beach or nothing crazy, but I mean that's a lot of that's a lot of people to take in a car. Yeah, well, my my we had, I forget what brand it was, but you know, do you remember the old station wagons that have like the wood kind of looking on? Of course. I just I just threatened my kids that that's what I'm gonna get them with their car. Those are kind of sick. I would drive them.

SPEAKER_04 12:58

Those are classics now, like they're they're coming back.

SPEAKER_03 13:00

Are those ones that have this rear-facing bench seat in the trunk? Do you remember that?

SPEAKER_04 13:04

That was pretty sweet. I know you're coming back.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but I was showing them pictures of of those cars, and like it this happened actually recently, like a couple weeks ago. My my son was kind of like, that could be kind of cool. Yeah, for sure. Kind of fun. My daughter was like, You better not. Uh but that's the car, that's the car we had. So we see uh and back then, forget seatbelts. You just shoved the kids in the trunk of the station wagon, and and who cares where you sat, there were no rules.

SPEAKER_04 13:32

And that was a national lampoon vacation. Totally uh station wagon. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 13:36

Yeah, was it a Chrysler or something? I don't know, but we have to look it up. So your parents were very adventurous, they were they were down to my mom was yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

Okay, my mom was always like very family-oriented, very like making sure we were having a good time and making sure that we were happy. Like she was just very much like the family person. So was my dad, but when it came to those things, that was my mom. She was the instigator for sure.

SPEAKER_04 13:58

That's we were you traveling back and forth to to Colombia?

SPEAKER_01 14:02

No, we we ended up we were traveling back and forth to Colombia, but not a lot. Um, we would travel to Venezuela sometimes because of my father's business that was there. Uh, but Colombia, we would just travel to go visit.

SPEAKER_04 14:13

Did you guys speak Spanish or English in the household?

SPEAKER_01 14:15

We spoke both. My mother only spoke to me in Spanish, and my father only spoke to me, actually, he'd speak to me in both English and Spanish. And it was uh it was funny. I I remember the conversation I had with my mom once, and and I tell my kids this story because they always fight me on speaking Spanish. But I tell, I told uh my mom, I'm like, I don't want to speak Spanish. And she's like, Well, I'm not gonna speak to you, period. End of story, unless you speak to me in Spanish. And I remember screaming at her, telling her, We live in America, this is a free country, we should speak English. And she's like, Good luck with that. And she did not speak to me for like four days, not a word, the discipline that my mom has. Like when she says something, committed, it's unbelievable. And she would not speak to me zero for four days straight. And then I started speaking to her in Spanish. And it was the best gift she ever gave me because I love it.

SPEAKER_04 15:08

Sounds like my mom. My mom pulled the same stuff with I'm my parents are Brazilian. Okay, so it was the same thing. I was growing up in a you know, first generation here, and they would only speak to me in Portuguese, and I'm thankful that they did that.

SPEAKER_03 15:20

It's it's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. It's I could I could so see myself being like 13, 14, saying that exact thing. We're in America, get with it, old lady. Oh, totally.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

That's exactly how I think it's so relatable. And she just looked at me like I was an idiot. She's like, good luck. Yeah, we'll see who wins this fight.

SPEAKER_04 15:37

That's awesome. So you speak Spanish fluently? Yeah, I do. Um, and where's your wife from?

SPEAKER_01 15:42

She's Persian, she's from Iran. Okay. Well, her parents are from Iran. She grew up, she was born here.

SPEAKER_04 15:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 15:47

Yeah. So station wagon family trips, you went to UM business. Did you have like a trap a path in mind, or like what made you go to business?

SPEAKER_01 15:57

You know, I worked, I worked with my father for a little bit, and I hated what he did. And so Why'd you hate it? Like, what about it? I just didn't like it. Too boring? It was just not interesting to me. It was not intellectually stimulating. Um, and it was my father's business, not mine. So I worked with him a little bit, and I decided one day, woke up and just said, you know what, I have a lot of friends in real estate. Seems easy. Let's go do it. And so I just got into real estate, had some friends of mine. I I I had a uh partner of mine who partnered with me in the business and and started doing small real estate deals. Out of college or in college? This is out of college. This is uh certain well into my 20s. And then uh so what happens? You graduate from college, what do you do? I worked for my family.

SPEAKER_04 16:44

You worked for your family. How many years?

SPEAKER_01 16:48

Three, four years. And you're like, this is not for me. Oh, it was definitely not for me. Yeah. And I so and I didn't want to be traveling to uh South America at all.

SPEAKER_03 16:58

Yeah, yeah. And you were living at home at the time?

SPEAKER_01 17:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:01

Out in Kendall?

SPEAKER_01 17:02

Yeah, in Galloway Glenn area, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:04

Okay. Where were you partying back in those days? I was gonna say there has to be an outlet here.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

So I mean, back back then, what was open? I mean, there were places in Miami Beach that were a lot of fun. Yeah. Where were your spots? And then in Coconut Grove, too, back when I was in college. Where were your spots? I mean, coconut in in in on the beach or places like Amnesia. Yeah. I don't know how long you guys have been here, but um a place called Le Bon or something like that. Uh so you could be found on these clubs on occasion. Once in a while.

SPEAKER_04 17:33

Once in a while.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

There was a place called Bed at one point. I remember Bed. Yep. Yeah. Yep. All right. But the world's changed a lot. Yeah, quite a bit. Absolutely. I mean, the beach has changed a lot.

SPEAKER_04 17:44

Were you uh were you into the party scene here in Miami?

SPEAKER_01 17:47

Not really into the party scene, but I'd go out once in a while. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:51

All right.

SPEAKER_03 17:54

Yeah, the beach has changed completely since then. Completely changed.

SPEAKER_04 17:58

I mean, the late 90s here at the beach was kind of like peak Miami Beach, I think, right? Like in terms of the gritty, like organic club scene that was happening here.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

Yes, the types of people very mixed, um, smaller, loungier feeling places, as opposed to like the mega club feel that you have today. Um what things cost is like a different planet today, right? I mean, you'd go there for spend a lot less money. But the world's changed a lot. Bottles, bro. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 18:34

So you worked for like four years with your dad, three, four years, and then you were just like so over it, you're maybe I'll get into real estate.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

Yeah. So I had a friend of mine who I talked to about getting into real estate. We ended up tying what does that mean? Like doing your own deals, being a broker, just doing no, actually doing our own deals. And we were what was your first deal? The first deal I ever did was we raised some money for a project in a piece of land in Las Vegas that we tied up.

SPEAKER_04 18:58

Las Vegas?

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 18:59

Uh holy shit.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

And so we had a lot of relationships in Vegas. We used to, my family and we used to travel to Vegas for vacation. I knew Vegas really well. Um, and then we tied up a piece of land, we raised a little bit of money from friends and family, and uh, we convinced some of the consultants out there to like help us and do things for us on the cheap, and they did. We changed the zoning of the property, and we ended up flipping the contract before we had to buy it, made a few million dollars, and that's how we got started. And then after we flipped it, we ended up trueing up all the people who helped us on the cheap and paid them what they were supposed to make, um, which made them very loyal to the things that we were trying to do and to us, and so because they were grateful because we didn't have to do that, and uh we did that another time and made some more money and then you know started to grow and build from there.

SPEAKER_03 19:49

But you were doing but to make a couple million on a contract flip on your first deals winning the lottery. That's wild. It was like going to that's pretty crazy. That's like the universe being like, This is what you're supposed to do.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

You know, it's it was timing, right? Because this is back in like 2004, I want to say.

SPEAKER_03 20:03

Okay. So it's it's it was getting frothy.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 20:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:07

And it was this was just dirt. Just dirt.

SPEAKER_03 20:10

And what what was the thesis on this land? Like, what was your idea and how did how did it come about?

SPEAKER_01 20:14

Just up zone to be something bigger, residential, and and once you get that approved, you knew value was higher, and we did, and we had the time in the contract to do it. And so then we just flipped it.

SPEAKER_03 20:23

How long was your DD period on that thing? I don't even remember. It had to be like a year, right? For a for a zoning change.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

I think we had a little bit over a year to do it, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:31

You can't even get those terms anymore.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

No, I mean, if you in today's world, when you do multifamily, you need time to get your entitlement. That's true.

SPEAKER_03 20:38

But still, it's people are so unreasonable, at least in Miami.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

Yeah. In the urban core for sure.

SPEAKER_03 20:43

I mean, I've gotten long DD periods down south for like Litech deals, but that's a little different. Yeah. And even that's like pulling teeth. But um that's awesome. So so how'd you find that deal?

SPEAKER_01 20:54

Just networking and meeting people. It's similar to what we do today. I mean, we're really we really roll up our sleeves, we get our hands dirty, we kind of identify our own opportunities. We we don't, we, we we really try to buy as much as we can off market, and that's through building relationships, friendships, um creating trust in the marketplace, and then we just find deals, and that's what we did there. We were just a couple of young guys trying to put something together and we were able to pull it off.

SPEAKER_03 21:21

You're just telling people we want to but did you even know that's what you were looking for? Because you just wanted to get into real estate at this point. You didn't know you wanted a a land that could be easily upzoned to flip a contract.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

That's I mean, I was a guy who thought he knew what he was doing and didn't know what they were doing. That's every 22-year-old, right? And got lucky and and put a deal to 25, I guess, at this point.

SPEAKER_04 21:39

Did your your did your partner have any real estate experience?

SPEAKER_01 21:42

No, but he was an attorney. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 21:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

All right. So he had some. Yeah. But uh, but it was fun. I mean, it was it was it was a hell of a learning experience. You know, I was just asked today, um, because some friends of mine who have kids that want to get into real estate, they're like, you know, and they're successful the parents, and their parents are like, my kid. Want me to back them, you know, should should they still go to college? I'm like, well, yeah, I think they should still go to school and get some sort of education. But um, and they're asking me, they're like, Well, should I just back them out of school? He's like, What do you think? How did it go for you? I'm like, you know, I think what like and they asked, What would you have done differently? The one thing I would have done differently is I probably would have gone to work if my parents pushed me to do it, to have gone to work for somebody else for call it five years and learn from the things they do well and the things they do poorly, because that accelerates your learning curve in your business, right? And so I look back today and I'm like, uh, if I would have learned all those things through somebody else and then just gone and started my business then, I feel like the trajectory would have been a little bit different, even a little bit faster and a little bit better. Because otherwise, when you start a business you know nothing about, even though you think you do, you have you make your own mistakes, you have to fix your own mistakes, you learn from your own mistakes, and that takes time. And so that takes a little longer unless somebody's mentoring you and guiding you. And I really didn't have a lot of that. But listen, it got us to where we are today.

SPEAKER_04 23:05

But let me ask you a question, though. Like, what drew you to real estate? Like what you're working at your your parents' factory, you know, business, and then I mean, real estate is not easy, but back then I was like, this looks easy.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:18

Well, and apparently it was. You made two million bucks without even hardly trying.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

You know, first deal. It was it was good. But um it's uh it was just kind of my attitude, and just the fact that I thought it was easy and I thought it was uh easy to do, and then you realize that it's not so easy.

SPEAKER_03 23:35

And there's real money involved, too.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

There's real money to see that, like, yeah. The other thing the other thing here in real estate is like everything's attainable, like capital's available, it's harder at times, like you know, equity is a little harder today than it was, let's say, three years ago. Um, but it it the sky's the limit on what you can do. You just have to have the balls to do it. And the relationships. Relationships are a big part of it, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 24:00

Because you got to be able to raise that money to put that thing under contract. You do. You got to have the partner that knows how to read a contract.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

That's true. But you know, you there's there's ways to solve things or shortcomings that you may have because you're just getting started. There's people you can partner with, other developers you can partner with when you're getting started. I mean, there's all kinds of ways if you're willing to be flexible in the way you approach things. So um I think in our world, in our business, even in our market here, I mean there's there's there will be ongoing opportunity for sure.

SPEAKER_04 24:31

And all right, so so you make a couple million dollars on on this flip. What do you do next?

SPEAKER_03 24:36

Buy a Ferrari.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

No, but I could go to amnesia. So it was my my partner and I go VIP table. My partner and I go and make some of that money, and then uh we spend most of it, I'm sure. But no, we use some of that. We did another deal in Vegas as well, or is somewhere? We did another deal in Vegas. Um, after that, also got into bridge lending. So we were providing bridge loans to people here. We had a partner um that would fund us, and then we would we would sell pieces of the debt off to different banks or bifurcate notes into A B positions or A1, A2 positions. I mean, sometimes MES, sometimes not. But um, and so we did a bunch of bridge loans together, same partner, and then we had another investor who was backing us, did that pretty well, got out of most of that by 2007, 2006, 7. Good, sold it all off. Um, yep. Uh people were like, you're leaving money on the table. We didn't care. We're just like, let's move on. So we moved on. And then after the crisis, we ended up getting into buying distressed debt. And then the first institutional deal I did was actually in partnership with related. We bought the loan from Barclays Bank on the Hawks K Resort in the Florida Keys. And I went, and this is an example on creating solutions.

SPEAKER_03 25:52

Did it exist yet, by the way? Or is the loan?

SPEAKER_01 25:53

Yeah, no, it was fully built. Um, you know, I could I couldn't figure it out on my own. It was a big deal. I was going hard with millions of dollars within like a week, and I had to close really fast. And so I was like, okay, well, this is not gonna happen by myself. So partner with a related group here. Um, great partners to us. They came, they helped us. They brought in Deutsche Bank as our first institutional investor because we'd never done an institutional deal like that. Uh, they came in as our partner, we bought the debt, um, and then the deal ended up being a phenomenal deal. We got paid off as much as we wanted to try to own the property. We ended up getting paid off a par and we made great returns, and everybody was happy. But at the time, I wasn't, you know, established enough to go and get something like that done in a matter of weeks.

SPEAKER_03 26:41

How'd you find that deal? Same thing, just building relationships because those are not easy to unlike unless they're like on an online mark auction place. No, it was a deal like that would be relationship driven.

SPEAKER_01 26:53

It was relationship driven. I spent the second the crisis happened, I was spending all of my time becoming friends through my friends with everybody in the lending business up in New York.

SPEAKER_03 27:03

Because you saw the opportunity to buy debt.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

I I saw the potential of it, yeah. So um we did a few of those deals that were quite successful.

SPEAKER_03 27:11

Was Hawks K non-performing when you bought it or performing?

SPEAKER_01 27:14

It was sub-performing because the property wasn't performing.

SPEAKER_03 27:17

Perfect.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

Um, but it wasn't necessarily, it was like under a technical default where trying to foreclose was going to be a fail failure. So we didn't get overly aggressive. So, and then they figured it out and listen, bounced back quickly, and we got paid off and we made our money.

SPEAKER_03 27:33

Yeah, and asset on uh uh collateral like that, you're and at the basis you probably got it at, it was a home run. It was a home run, it was great, you know, that's and risk reward, it was unbelievable. Yeah, for sure. Because your your LTV was probably a joke. Yes, yeah, yes, that's awesome. So, like what gave you the how did you get read in so quickly in all these different types of like real estate deals? Because we're talking about dying, buying distressed debt, you're lending and selling off pieces and tranches, you're getting things upzoned. Like, where's all this learning coming from?

SPEAKER_01 28:04

You know, I it's it's all of my friends in New York that were in that business, in that world, and that I'm still friends with today. And, you know, some of them were the heads of Credit Suisse putting together these CMBS loans that had problems and these syndications and stuff. And uh you learn a lot by just listening. So I did a lot of that. And then the other parts was you you realize who the right lawyers are you need to hire, who you need to have on your team advising you to get deals done. And uh that's how I learned how to do some of those things. And and the beauty of it is the beauty of let's say where I got started, where I am today, is having visibility into all of those different things that impact real estate, good times and bad times. Um, we've been, you know, thank God, haven't didn't fall victim to that crisis. But seeing all those things happen really gives you visibility in what can go right, what can go wrong, how should you structure things, what works, what doesn't work. Um, and it's really a powerful weapon when you get into the world of real estate. And um, it also teaches you that you shouldn't be fast and loose because that's how you get caught.

SPEAKER_03 29:11

Or and don't overleverage, but sometimes you gotta be fast, like that Ox K deal. You can't buy debt like that and not be quick. You gotta close, like you said, you gotta go hard and close like that because otherwise I I agree. That's gonna be gone. In it, yes, in a different context, you're correct. Yeah, you gotta be whipping on those deals. Absolutely. Um, so did Mass start with the Vegas deal, or when did Mast No, then I started.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

Um, then I got bought out, and I also had a title company back then too, with that same partner that I was doing real estate in. Um, got bought out of all of that, and then in 2006, I formed Mast as a company.

SPEAKER_03 29:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

And then uh And it was just you at the time, or was it with a partner? No, it's just me.

SPEAKER_03 29:52

Okay. So and what was your vision? Because I feel like Mast is part of this interesting cadre of real estate companies. It's more like uh real estate private equity firm in a way, where you're just kind of like willing to do anything that makes money in real estate. You guys develop, you've gotten land flips entitled, condo assemblages, like you're doing everything.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

Anything we own, we want to develop and execute on, right? Because that's what we are. Um that's what we do. We invest, we develop, we execute. Um but yes, you're right. We are very opportunistic in the things we do. We buy distressed debt, we'll provide loans to people. We're we're working on a fuseless right now where we're gonna provide some bridge loans to certain uh borrowers that need our help. Um we're doing some uh providing some rescue capital and some opportunities, and they need some of our construction development expertise. So we're gonna get involved in also. So we'll we're willing to kind of play all over the capital stack, but the funnest part is really just developing the things that we're working on.

SPEAKER_04 30:52

That's what you like doing, the BAMS. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:54

Is that what you started Mass to do? Was to develop or just to be kind of a company to do all these things that you find. You know, I always have to execute on these opportunities you come across.

SPEAKER_01 31:04

I I always wanted to do more than I was doing. So I always wanted to do big projects, huge projects. Look, we if you look at our Cipriani project in in uh in Brickle that we're developing. I don't know if you guys have seen the building.

SPEAKER_03 31:17

Yeah, it's like a nice small little project. Yeah, you know, it's a tiny building.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

I mean, I I gotta tell you, and I tell the team every day because and I say this to my friends, I'm like, you have to be grateful for what you've achieved and accomplished. Never lose sight of what it took to get there. It doesn't matter like how rich you are at this point or or not rich or humble. Like you just gotta, you you should be humble into how you approach your life. And and I go by and I tell my team, I'm like, guys, we're building an 83-story building. That's crazy. I mean, it's crazy, right? I mean, you're looking at this tower and you're like, it's like this is unbelievable. And then we're playing this is the biggest building you've built. By me.

SPEAKER_03 31:53

Yeah, it's the biggest building south of New York, or biggest residential building south of New York.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

It is, but it's fascinating because when you're planning it and you're talking about when I'm sitting with the engineers and everybody and my team and my construction team, and we're like, all right, well, we have to build the tower part first. So the garage under the tower and the tower, and then there's another half of the garage that we don't start building until we get to a certain floor because the building has to settle a little bit before you add the balance of the parking structure. And I'm like, well, what does that mean? Right. So you're just like, it's it's like bizarre thinking that this building has to settle a little bit and then you attach the rest of the garage so that it's all level. And um, you know, you learn a lot. But when you're driving by, I mean, it's really humbling to look at something like that and be like, you know, it's I mean, people dream of being able to build something like this, and like we're doing it. And uh, you know, and I and I want the team to be proud. And and I took my son and a bunch of his buddies that he's part of a uh uh a group in in his school, and I took a bunch of them there, and I I tell them the same thing. I'm like, never take for granted like what it took to like do this. I mean, this is unbelievable. Um, and uh, you know, it's it's nice to look at it and just be like, wow, I can't believe we did this.

SPEAKER_03 33:13

I used to live in Infinity at the first place I moved into when I moved to Miami. Infinity, I took like two doors down. Yeah, and that hole in the ground has been a hole in the ground since I moved here, basically. Yep. So to see how big it is compared to Infinity is wild because I remember hanging out on the rooftop of Infinity, which is like 53, I think, or 52. Yeah. And so that that thing is like another 30 stories up.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

It's it's it's nuts. And I went up to the 79th floor in the construction hoist. Nice, not my favorite thing to college. Tame experience. Um, but the views from up there are just nuts. I bought absolutely incredible. I mean, you you you you you can't appreciate how tall that building is until you're up there. It's like incredible. But it's it's it's fun. And then look, we have other projects which are really cool. Like we're doing the one in the Miami Beach, the Paragon. And that one's cool in a different way because the details that go into that construction, the complexity of all that. But it's a 17, 18-story building. And you would think, well, isn't the 83-story building much more complicated? And and and it, they're both complicated in different ways because of all the detail and intricacy of everything we're doing on the beach, that's just so much more complicated. And you, you know, you should be proud of that too. So we we we're doing a lot of cool stuff. So I like the development side, especially on the condo projects, because it requires a lot of planning and thought.

SPEAKER_03 34:27

But back when you started in 06, it was less that, right? It was less development and more opportunistic.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

Yeah, but I always aspired to do the development stuff.

SPEAKER_03 34:35

So you were just trying to get in, spread your chips, and then work work the development stuff.

SPEAKER_01 34:38

My attitude is whatever it takes to make money.

SPEAKER_03 34:40

Right.

SPEAKER_04 34:41

What was the first ground up development you did?

SPEAKER_01 34:45

Ground up development that we did. The first one was I mean, gosh. Like they're all mixing up together. I mean, one of the ones that we did that was was one of the was phase one on the Miami River, um, which is I don't know if you know that project. The 10X one now? Yeah. Um that was one of the first large-scale development deals that we did.

SPEAKER_03 35:09

And what year was that?

SPEAKER_01 35:11

I mean we started that eight years ago.

SPEAKER_03 35:14

Okay. 2018. Something like that. That's where Mitch lived. My brother lived in the building. Yeah. Yeah. So I know I know it pretty well.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

Yeah. It came out well. And then phase two, you know, you're always learning. So then we did phase two. We sold that, which is, I guess, now called 10X. Uh, and then we did phase two. You learn from what you did in phase one, and you make phase two better. And that did super well. And we sold that too. Um, and then we have stuff all over the state.

SPEAKER_03 35:41

Did you guys develop the Grove building yet? That office building you bought on the main highway?

SPEAKER_01 35:45

No, we ended up selling it in the middle of COVID. Now it's uh Hugo Colombo and uh Nadem from Fort.

SPEAKER_03 35:52

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

They both partnered into developing uh Four Seasons residences there.

SPEAKER_03 35:56

Oh, sweet.

SPEAKER_01 35:56

It's gonna be it's it's a great property. It's gonna be nice. We're doing it, we are gonna be launching another project in the Grove on South Bay Shore um probably in the fall.

SPEAKER_03 36:06

Well, let's get into the arc of mass. So, Mass, you know, you start doing opportunistic stuff. What were those early 2006 to 2010 projects like?

SPEAKER_01 36:15

I mean, those were a lot of like bridge lending, um, buying distressed debt. It was more just transactional. Uh, we bought some debt, tried to foreclose on people. I had borrowers declare bankruptcy on us. It was like that's fun. We've well and two years later, yeah. You learn a lot from that too. Totally. Uh, because you also learn what people are willing to do. Um, and you learn the tricks too. You definitely learned the tricks.

SPEAKER_03 36:40

That's how I got into real estate, was buying distressed debt.

SPEAKER_01 36:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:42

So coming in it from that angle, you're like, well, I know exactly how to fuck with somebody or not fuck with somebody. You know what threats to make, you know.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

It was it was uh quite incredible the the sneaky things that people are willing to do.

SPEAKER_03 36:53

Yeah. Um and so concrete down plumbing pipes. I've seen that. That I didn't experience.

SPEAKER_01 36:59

Um, but that was back in uh that was back then. I mean, all the way through 2011, 12, yeah, 13. I mean, we're doing some of that.

SPEAKER_03 37:05

And you guys were kind of one of the early pioneers on the condo assemblage stuff too. We were, and we I don't know if anyone really realizes, but I was like you guys were doing that back in 15, like looking at deals, 14.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

We did uh another small ground-up development deal that we did. Well, actually, one of the first ones was was a project called Louver House in Miami Beach. Sick project on Meridian Avenue, and that came out really nice. That was actually part of how we bought more land to make the lot bigger was a condo assemblage, small, like eight-unit building. And we put that together and then we developed Louverhouse. And we were selling like, I don't know, I lost track, but maybe $1,400 a foot, $1,300 a foot, which back then was insane. It was insane. Landlocked, no views, but but we did a beautiful product and south of fifth, like sick neighborhood. Yeah, it came out nice, and it was like two blocks from our office. So that came out. That was actually one of our first ones. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:56

Are you still in the same office down there?

SPEAKER_01 37:57

No, my office is in Coconut Grove.

SPEAKER_03 37:59

Okay. What used to be the SBS building because that office they renovated recently, it's crazy different now. It came out nice, yeah. Very nice. No, I was there recently for the first time, probably since I saw you in 2015 there. Really? And it's yeah, it's really nice. I haven't been by because back then red was in the bottom, the steakhouse.

SPEAKER_01 38:16

And what's there now?

SPEAKER_03 38:17

I forget. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

Now they just open up Gaia down the street, which is kind of fun. It's a good, good uh restaurant.

SPEAKER_03 38:24

But Louverhouse is a really cool project.

SPEAKER_01 38:26

It came out nice, and you we learned a lot from that because when you're dealing with intricate details, you start to realize how much work it goes into executing on those things.

SPEAKER_04 38:35

So you and that one you had to buy out eight condo owners, is that what it was?

SPEAKER_01 38:38

Yeah, in a small building.

SPEAKER_04 38:40

Yeah, in a small building.

SPEAKER_03 38:41

Yeah, like a probably like a small 7,000 square foot lot, like one of those eight-uniting crappy buildings.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 38:48

There's a bunch of those south of it that no one's been able to do anything with.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

There are a bunch of them. A ton of them. Some of them are historic, though. This wasn't. Okay. So it was easy to deal with it. You just tore it down and built something new. Got it. And then we did um, we've done a bunch of those. I mean, our biggest one that we had done as a condo assemblage was Paragon, which used to be La Costa.

SPEAKER_03 39:06

Where is that one?

SPEAKER_01 39:07

That's on 53rd in Collins.

SPEAKER_03 39:09

53rd, okay. There are a bunch in that zone too, because I remember working with Fortune back in the day on Marlborough House, which I think was 55th. Yep. I forget what they called it now, what they built it.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

I think it's 57th, actually. And it's called 57th Collins, is the name of the building.

SPEAKER_03 39:24

Okay, very creative. Um But I remember Marlboro House. I mean, it's like Hurt and brilliant marketing behind that one. Yeah, it's like Hurt and Katz trying to get these owners to agree. It's insane.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

Oh, it takes a lot of work. I mean, when you're dealing with a hundred owners with a hundred different opinions and no, it's nuts. It's dealing with a hundred sellers, right? So it's a lot of work.

SPEAKER_03 39:44

Well, we went to a meeting at his mom at Felipe's mom's condo building like a year ago, two years ago. Yeah, two years ago. And it was hilarious.

SPEAKER_04 39:50

Yeah, oh my god. The cast of characters, it was nuts. No one understands anything, but they all understand they know everything.

SPEAKER_03 39:56

Well, they all think their buildings are worth a hundred million dollars. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Everything's worth a hundred million. So which still hasn't sold or done anything, right?

SPEAKER_04 40:04

No, nothing's gonna happen there.

SPEAKER_03 40:06

Yeah, yeah. Is that on the beach?

SPEAKER_04 40:07

It's in Miami Shores. Oh, okay. Um, it's a great piece of land, it's right on the water. Uh you guys should buy it out.

SPEAKER_01 40:16

Yeah, there's there's there's gonna be a lot of that happening.

SPEAKER_04 40:19

Yeah, but the issue but the issue there is that the zoning. Well, I think the bigger issue is that they need a hundred percent of the owners to approve it. And how do you how do you get there? You don't, right? Like, so you have to go back and you gotta change the condo docs.

SPEAKER_03 40:36

Which doesn't work apparently. The two roads, right? Didn't two roads just get owned on that verdict recently?

SPEAKER_01 40:41

Yeah, I mean, look, it's there's a lot of technicalities around it and how it works and what the condo docs say versus the statute. I mean, every deal is unique in its own way, so you just have to be very aware of what your documents say so you can decide how to proceed. I mean, some of them require 70%, some of them require 100%.

SPEAKER_04 41:01

I mean, so you guys have you guys ever got well? I mean, uh 100% of like eight people is doable, right? But if you have a hundred units or a plus, that's tough, isn't it, to get it done? It's very challenging.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

It's very challenging. Because then one person can sit there and hold everybody, yeah. And and the the unfortunate reality of those deals, and something like the example you're providing, which is 100%, it's like you have and you have big assessments and you have big problems with the building and a lot of capital needs in the building. The challenge is you can have that one person who doesn't care about everybody else's hardships and ruin that transaction. And then he's forcing other people to live with that liability as opposed to turning that liability into an asset. And and it's uh it's I've seen it happen time and time again in many of the buildings where people are some people calling like crying, like, how do we get this done? I can't afford to deal with this, I can't pay the money. Yeah, and it's uh and there's just nothing you can do.

SPEAKER_04 42:00

Do you guys even pursue 100% buildings? Have you guys that are I can't imagine it being worth it? I know.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

You know, we're pursuing a couple of 95% deals, yeah. 100%, it's more of like you want to put it on the residents to figure that out. You're willing to support them, but like get them to bring the 100% together, and maybe you sign up some, but to exert a lot of energy in that, it's just not worth it. Yeah, I can imagine it is because even we have the the 90% or 80%. I mean, you still have a subset of people that are always a problem.

SPEAKER_03 42:36

Yeah, those HOA meetings, just I'm just thinking about it.

SPEAKER_01 42:40

Like, oh my god, they're brutal. Oh no, some of those meetings are nuts, aggressive, it's nuts. I mean, people get angry.

SPEAKER_04 42:47

I mean, you get all walks of life in those meetings, yeah. It's crazy, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:50

But it's like for the most part, people, most of the people are good people and then they want to do the right thing and they realize what position they're in and they just want to get out of that position. I mean, there's some buildings that units are worth four hundred thousand dollars, but there's two hundred and fifty thousand dollars in assessments. Yeah, I mean, that math doesn't work, yeah. And it's not 250,000 assessments to make the building beautiful, it's to fix construction defects that have emerged over the last five decades, right? So um, it's not money that's being spent to create a tremendous amount of value. Your unit's still worth $400,000 when you're done, but you spent $250, to get there.

SPEAKER_03 43:25

It's like and here's someone offering you double, but you think it's worth quadruple.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

Yeah, which is always the There's also a group of people that are just like, I'm never gonna sell. And they mean it. That's yeah. No, they mean it. Some of them mean it. They're just like, I don't want to go anywhere. It's uh this is where I love it here.

SPEAKER_04 43:41

That's yeah. Yep. But uh you see a lot of opportunity in the pipeline with these kind of buyouts.

SPEAKER_01 43:51

Yeah, I mean, you can identify a lot of opportunities if you have somewhat of a reasonable group of sellers. Um Because the land is worth in excess of the retail value of those units. And when you see that opportunity, that's clearly a formula for you to try to pursue that deal. But you know, it's still not easy. Yeah. Even if you're offering people 50% above value, 100% above value, I mean, you would think that's a no-brainer, and to some people it's not.

SPEAKER_04 44:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:22

You're the big bad developer, you can pay more.

SPEAKER_04 44:24

Yeah. Of course you can.

SPEAKER_03 44:27

People don't realize how that, you know, there's a spreadsheet. And once we go past this, then there's no point. Exactly. It's it's sometimes it's simple math, right? So it's not that complicated. No. Has has masks like your your um what's the word I'm looking for? I guess a vector, but like have you changed what you're looking for over the years from like the earlier you're doing more distress stuff and opportunistic? Obviously, you've moved to more development from 2010 to 2020. Was it pretty business as usual, or were you kind of were things changing at all?

SPEAKER_01 44:57

I mean, we're always evolving, we're always growing, we're always looking at bigger things, sometimes more complicated, sometimes just larger transactions. I mean, what we all learn and what you see is to do a small deal takes as much time as to do a big deal. So um you realize that you would rather invest your resources into larger transactions when it's an opportunity. But at the same time, you want to be we some people don't, they some people like to really be concentrated, but we like to be somewhat diversified, which is why we do multifamily, we do condo projects, and then we have some hospitality. Um, but our condo deals are by far way larger than any multifamily deal we're doing.

SPEAKER_03 45:36

Plus, we can make way more money because you can sell for what you're building.

SPEAKER_01 45:39

You you can make way more money. It's a different tax uh treatment, but you can make a lot more money for sure.

SPEAKER_03 45:45

Yeah, and I bet and especially today with that's where it's at. I can't imagine any multifamily really penciling.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

You know, some of it works. It's just um equity is a little bit on the sidelines right now in regards to multifamily. Not everybody's you mean for development?

SPEAKER_03 45:58

For development. For sure.

SPEAKER_01 45:59

Not not everybody's willing, even your household names that used to be in the market everywhere, available all the time for deals that looked good. Um, that's not necessarily that easy anymore. So you really have to have a lot of resources beyond just your typical household name investors to go and put some of them together. Luckily, we're being successful doing it, but it's a lot more work today. But cap, but debt is abundant. I mean, where spreads are today, they're tighter than they were two years ago. Um, financing's available, leverage that banks are willing to provide has gone up. Debt funds are competing with banks, which is you know very interesting to see that. Sometimes debt funds are beating out banks in regards to the spreads they want to charge, um, which is should not typically be the case, but that's the environment that we're in. Um and even on the condo financing stuff, that's the same.

SPEAKER_03 46:53

Very interesting. Yeah. How have you seen things change from 2020 to today? From where you're sitting, like what's what's changed in in your guys' business? Just everything going nuts, or I mean we focus on condos more than other stuff because of the what we've been seeing in Miami here.

SPEAKER_01 47:10

We would be doing more multifamily right now in markets that don't have too much supply. There are some markets that have too much supply today and are still providing big concessions in the multifamily space. So we would do more of it. Um if we, if we, one, if we had a lot more of it, and two, if capital was readily available to go do it. Um, and in some cases, we'll we are willing to do things ourselves. Um, on the condo side, though, with what's happening in Florida, I mean, everything's changed, right? I mean, people are migrating from all over the country. That hasn't stopped, that's not going to stop. Um, these other states that are driving people here are continuing to do things to drive more people here. And we're feeling it, we're seeing it. And even at Paragon, right? So last month we sold $70 million of condos from domestic buyers that were moving from states that uh from New York that was that's you know having its own set of challenges. And so ignoring that that market continues to remain um somewhat robust, I think would be foolish. So for us, we're spending a lot of time looking at the luxury space. We don't really do middle market condo stuff, that's just not what our business is, but we're very focused on kind of the luxury, more high-end condo projects.

SPEAKER_04 48:23

And you see that demand super strong still.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

We we see it strong, we see it strong in our projects. Um we see that continuing. Um we are seeing it be healthy. So it's not this like gangbuster, you know, project selling out in a year, like there was a moment in COVID where things like that were happen were happening. But we are continuing to see the migration and we are continuing to see things selling. But you also have, and then when you look at our foreign markets, because we see more foreign buyers at Cipriani and Brickle. Um, right now I would say brickle in terms of things that we're selling is probably 50-50, 50 to Mexico, 50% of foreign international. Um, but you have you know, fiscal and economic policy in Brazil, Colombia, Mexico driving people here. You have politics in those countries driving people here, you have fears of the trajectory of their economies and where they're heading, driving people here. And, you know, we're spending a lot of time in these countries presenting and doing events and trying to market our projects. And you hear people thinking about even moving here and picking up their lives or moving their kids here. And so you're you're really starting to see their desire to diversify away from their country and bring more capital here. So not only are they willing to buy residences, now they're all even looking to invest more money here, and more particularly into Florida because they understand the market here. And you're and you're a Brazilian, right? And the Brazilians really have a foothold here in Southeast Florida. For sure. So, and that's growing. And now it used to be that many Brazilians in the condo projects used to buy more in, let's say, Sunny Isles, and that's not the case anymore. They're really buying all over Miami, and we're seeing it. I mean, we sold one of our penthouses at Cipriani to a very wealthy Brazilian.

SPEAKER_03 50:15

How many units is uh Cipriani? 396. 396. And the and the mix of domestic versus foreign, did you did you mention or what is that normally?

SPEAKER_01 50:25

I think today we're probably across the project, we're probably about 60% foreign, 65% foreign, something like that. Okay, and 35 to 40 percent domestic. Um, but today I would say the new buyers coming in is like a 50-50 split.

SPEAKER_03 50:42

And are you are you changing your development? Um what you guys are focused on at all? I mean, are you moving into any other asset classes or are you doubling down on luxury condos?

SPEAKER_01 50:53

We are doubling down on luxury condos. We want to do more multifamily and we're still looking at some hospitality opportunities. What kind of hospitality stuff have you guys done? Have you guys done have hospitality other than Hawkskay? Well, we own Little Palm Island, the Florida Keys. That's right. I forgot about that, which is quite special. Uh love that property a lot. It's a sick property. Yeah, it's it's it's very nice. And then we we just sold Soleil, which is a hotel in Sunny Isles. Um, we own the Saddlebrook Resort up in Tampa. Um, and then we're looking at new hospitality acquisitions. What are you looking for in hospitality? Like what kind of stuff do you guys is it resort driven or not necessarily, but looking more on the leisure side of it, uh, more than corporate travel.

SPEAKER_03 51:36

Interesting. And in like what kind of markets? Around the whole state. Florida, though. Florida specific.

SPEAKER_01 51:42

Yeah. Our focus is Florida.

SPEAKER_03 51:44

Would you have you guys done anything else outside of Florida? Are you just super focused on Florida?

SPEAKER_01 51:48

We did one deal outside of Florida, but beyond that, no.

SPEAKER_04 51:52

What markets do you like in Florida?

SPEAKER_01 51:55

I still like Tampa, St. Pete, you know, but certain it's it's it's it's hard to answer the question without really digging into that specific submarket. But in general, Tampa, St. Pete, we still like Southeast Florida a lot. We're looking at stuff in Naples, um, Sarasota, we're looking at opportunities there.

SPEAKER_03 52:14

And so I think it's a great time to buy hospitality assets. Most of them are not doing great. The debt's gotten better from today's, but their current rates are not good.

SPEAKER_01 52:23

Yeah, but we're looking, we're also looking a lot at the multifamily econom. Building or buying? Building. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:29

Building multifamily.

SPEAKER_01 52:31

Yeah. We're not seeing a lot in uh value add. That's been challenging for us to make sense of. And building multifamily where like CBD Miami or more You know, CBD Miami's tough because building high-rise is with construction costs where they are, it's it's quite challenging.

SPEAKER_03 52:46

Well, all the LPs want to see this magical seven yield-on cost number, which is unachievable. Right. Even if land was free. So you got to go build sticks somewhere. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 52:57

Garden style. Unless you're willing to believe really big rents. Listen, the project we have in Miami Beach, have you seen Avara?

SPEAKER_03 53:03

Nope.

SPEAKER_01 53:04

It's a if you go, if you're coming east on the Julia, yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_03 53:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:07

And right by Mount Sinai, the first thing you see as you're approaching the beach is Avara, which is a multifamily asset that we develop right now. Next to that Tali Medic University building. Yeah, that's that's sweet. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:17

My kids go to St. Patrick's, so we watched it get built like every morning on the way to school. Yeah. Do you live by there? I live on this side of the bridge. Uh-huh. You know where that domino park is? Yeah. I live right back in there.

SPEAKER_01 53:27

Okay. And your kids go to school in St. Patrick's. Yeah. It's great. Yeah. That neighborhood's great too. Yeah. And um, I mean, we're we're breaking records on on our rents there. It's it's uh so that kind of stuff you can make sense of. But if you're building a new multifamily building, let's say in Brickle, you have to believe in some pretty aspirational rents to make sense of the opportunity. So it's it's it's not that easy.

SPEAKER_03 53:53

Uh, urban core multifamily. Totally. Um, was that of ours supposed to be condo or was it always multifamily?

SPEAKER_01 53:59

A long time ago it was going to be a condo project. That's what I thought. And then we pivoted and went multi-family.

SPEAKER_03 54:03

I'm surprised you didn't pivot back the way everything was going.

SPEAKER_01 54:06

We we we we thought about it, but it's done so well as multifamily that it's uh where it's renting today, it's you just have to feel great about it.

SPEAKER_03 54:15

It's such a sick location, too. Like you wouldn't really think about it, but about the views there are amazing.

SPEAKER_01 54:19

They are really nice. It's irreplaceable, too, right? Building being able to buy land in Miami Beach and to be able to afford to develop multifamily is is basically impossible.

SPEAKER_04 54:28

What was there before?

SPEAKER_01 54:30

That piece was always land, it was part of part of that Talmudic University because we bought the land from them.

SPEAKER_04 54:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 54:35

Um it's like a parking lot, wasn't it? Parking lot. It was like a I think a basketball court at one point, part of it. And um, and then we just redeveloped it.

SPEAKER_03 54:47

Do you think that because Miami loves we love getting over our skis on these real estate cycles? Like get overbuilt, then we go down the hill and then come back. We haven't had a cycle sin. Oh, wait, basically, right? Like everyone says we are coming into it in 1819, allegedly, but it's been pretty much all systems go since GFC. Do you see anything on the horizon, or is the population growth going to keep us propped up for a while?

SPEAKER_01 55:15

You know, the the we don't have a crystal ball, and anything can happen. We don't know what we don't know, right? So that's hard to predict. I would tell you that um we're cautious about what we do. Um, we've been that way for now, I don't know, maybe going into two years. So it's it's uh cautious for the last two years, you're saying? Like in regards to the multi-family side, which we want to be doing a lot more of. We've been, let's call it a year and a half, maybe, but um we haven't done a lot of new multi, which we're starting to do now. Um, it's been difficult to buy because of people's expectations on value of land and with where construction costs were, right? Rates were high, construction costs were high, land values were high. It's like everything was high. Um, so it just wasn't making sense to develop multi at the time, or at least new projects. And so we developed what we had in the pipeline, and now we're making new acquisitions. But um we still see opportunity going forward because we still think fundamentals in Florida remain strong. It's hard because when you want to speak about the rest of the country, I mean, every market is very different. Even in our own state, every market is different because some of them have too much supply and you don't want to touch it. Uh, and then so, but others have opportunity. But in the luxury condo side, we still remain very optimistic there. You know, we the the way I look at it is your wealthy buyer will be the last to stop buying and the first to start buying. So that buyer is out of the market for the shortest period of time. Um, and the ultra-rich typically remain rich and can buy, and so it's nice to cater to that market um if you know what you're doing and and you're willing to make those investments.

SPEAKER_03 56:56

And you don't think we're oversaturated on that front yet? I don't think so. I don't think there's a ton of supply on like it does beach, it doesn't seem like it from but I'm not in that world. It just doesn't seem like it, but it's weird because that's the only thing that's really penciling. But maybe the ability to actually execute on those types of developments is a is a a skill that not many people can so paragon is an example, right?

SPEAKER_01 57:17

It's 73 units. Um, they're pretty large units, but it's 73 units. So when you look at like inventory, new inventory coming in the market or is in the market, it's really not a lot. There really aren't a huge abundance of options if you want to buy new construction in Miami Beach on the sand. So that market segment to me is is not oversaturated. And so there are other market segments where barriers to entry are much easier, they're lower and more accessible, and there's a lot more supply, and there's you know bigger projects with many units. I think that that I get a little bit more uh concerned about right now. But I think generally, in terms of you know how we finance things today is very different, also. It's uh, you know, you get 40% sales, you get 40% deposits, you get to use that money basically for free. Right, right. It's part of your basically it's part of your equity stack, right? So you get to use those deposits to build your building. The leverage you take in condo deals is not what it was in 2005, 6, 7, which used to be 95% leverage with almost no equity. Today it's like you're borrowing 60%, but you're really only using like 40% because you're selling along the way. It's just a completely different environment. And then the fundamentals today are very different than it was, you know, a long time ago, call it 20 years ago. And you know, you you forget that you know, we're in 2026 and 20 years ago was 2006, right? It's crazy. So time flies. But um as a market, it's I think we've we've grown up and grown past the boom bust environment that we used to experience for two reasons. One is the way that we structure our deals for the people who are financing things responsibly, and the way that we take deposits from our condo buyers, the fundamentals that have evolved as a result of COVID and what's happening in the rest of the country that's putting pushing people into our state. And so you bring all those things together and you start to see a market that's changed and has been has a completely different construct than it had before. And then you have real businesses, real financial institutions moving here. Um, we have we are diversifying away from only being a leisure market and a real estate market. And then the people buying here are buying to live, not just to invest and flip. You're always gonna have some guys who buy to sell, right? But but many of the buyers, the more than the majority of the buyers are buying to live in these buildings.

SPEAKER_03 59:48

Yeah, it's much less speculative. You have Mam Dami in front of uh Ken's penthouse and you have California talking about unrealized gain taxes, and so everyone's freaking out. Like they're just we're benefiting from all that.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:01

We are, and I think we're gonna continue to benefit because they don't seem to be stopping putting these these uh these things in place in their in their states.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:08

And to your point, we're a real city now more than we ever were before.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:11

Absolutely. You know, it's we can you can do anything you want other than go skiing or go hike a mountain here within 15 minutes from your house. I mean, you can go boating, you can go to a museum, you can go to a performing arts center, you can go to the best restaurants, um, you can go to the beach. I mean, anything you want to do, like Miami offers it from a lifestyle perspective, I think it's unbeatable.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:32

I saw somewhere that uh you doubled the firm's footprint during COVID. Is that true?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:38

We did a lot. What what what what uh how did you do that? Like what was the what did you see and what was the what did you execute on to do that?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:46

I mean, Cipriani and Paragon were a big part of that.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:48

That was COVID acquisitions. Yeah, they both were.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:51

They both were.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:52

And what did COVID enable for you to be able to transact on those that wasn't possible before? Was it just the freak out? Was it what you kind of what you saw from 08 where everyone's hair is on fire and you were like, I see some opportunity here?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:03

Where the site where Cipriani sits, I've been working on that for a few years. So I I just stayed close to ownership and eventually the opportunity became available and I bought it. Was it like a Chinese company or it was, but to your point earlier, in a different context, but in in this context where you need to move quick, is we negotiated that deal super fast. We signed the contract as quickly as we can because other developers wanted it. Of course, right? 2.8 acres right in the heart of Brickle. Yeah, it's sick and the southernmost part of Brickle, so there's no traffic getting to and from the property.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:32

It's unbelievable, it hasn't been ex developed before.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:34

Yeah. So so when the when it the opportunity was there, we moved fast. We were very decisive. We tied it up, we put up money, and um then we were able to get it done. We we had about a year to close, which was pretty unique too, but that happened because of the environment we were in. Got it, right? So we were like still 2021, early 2021, negotiating deal December 2020. So there was a reason we were able to convince the seller to give us some flexibility and some leeway to close because of the environment. Yeah, in today's world, you would not get a year to close on a piece of land in Brickle. No, so that was great. And then Paragon was one of those condo assemblages that we were working on for years, and then finally it came together and we were able to acquire that during COVID. Both projects were interesting, though, because one of the biggest challenges was for us is like since we were early movers in launching a condo project in Miami Beach and in Brickle during the COVID era, we really didn't know what we kind of knew what revenue was going to look like, but we didn't know how much better it could possibly be. And all of a sudden we we were working on those deals, we started selling at the values back then, and then the market quickly defined that okay, the value should be more. Now construction costs moved with those those values. So as much as I want to, as much as I wish that every dollar of incremental value we created is coming in our pockets, that's not necessarily the case because construction costs move too. But um it was interesting. And and now you know you you you have a better understanding of where price per foot needs to be in each of these markets.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:10

Yeah, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:12

And are you seeing construction costs continue to rise? Um, do you think they're they're gonna continue to any any potential for them to decline at all any at any time in the near future?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:27

So I think again, it depends. So in the condo space, the contractors that you would give some of these large-scale condo projects in, I don't think you're gonna see big declines in construction costs there.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:40

No one wants to give up what they already the the marks are already there. Why would they come back?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:43

And and a lot of them are getting financed right now, and you know, there's there's there will be opportunities to find value, but the reality is I think that that's pretty steady right now. We're not seeing increases in construction costs. I would say that's pretty stable. In the multifamily space, I think there's a lot more flexibility because a lot of projects are not moving forward for a variety of reasons. Um, and so we're seeing some construction cost declines. It's a different subset of some contractors and contractors than the ones we would use to build, you know, 83-story buildings in Brickle. Yeah. Right. So um it goes back to that supply-demand, right? So if demand's down for construction and garden style multifamily, then that place that space becomes more negotiable when it comes to cost. Uh so that's that's that's a little bit of what we're seeing.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:34

What do you think about the whole affordability conversation in Miami? Have you ever played in that arena? Like affordable housing or workforce housing?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:40

We're we're looking at a couple of live local deals where there will be some workforce integrated into the projects. Um, I mean, affordability is a problem.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:48

I mean, people love to make noise about it, but no one seemed to have a solution.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:51

Because it's not something that's easy to solve. Right. It's like it's when land is priced super high. Concrete cost would it cost? And yeah. So it's like some some some type of subsidy or structure needs to come into play uh to allow you to solve that or somewhat begin to solve that because affordability is an issue. I mean, people are you know commuting long distances to go to work now because you can't live close to where you work because the cost of living there is just way too high.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:20

What kind of subsidies would you need to be incentivized?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:23

You know, I I don't have I don't have the answer. I would say that government plays a role in that for sure. Um, providing land and and it's you have to be even more than land, though.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:34

Like we talked about before, the construction costs are high to the point where equity wants to see a return that you still can't achieve. Because those deals, like you have LITEC to serve the very low end, the middle market stuff is the live local stuff, but that comes to more of a market rate investor who wants to see a market rate return, which you're not going to get based on construction costs. So it would have to be either a super low interest rate loan from the government, like sub four percent. Or like just a grant, some kind of grant.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:02

Insurance.

unknown 1:06:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:04

Everywhere you can save money should be considered. That's true. You know, the insurance you're paying your contractor, should there be some type of state grant or city grant that's that's backstopping that to get insurance costs to come down. Insurance of the of the operating asset, can you keep that down? Your construction costs. I mean, I don't know how you subsidize that unless somebody's giving you money to do that. Uh land is is just an easy one, right? They own land, they can give land. That's that's easy. That's something they control. What you said is actually, you know, something certainly worth looking at, which is financing. Is that available? Um, can you get that super cheap? I mean, all of those things, but it it would it would take a lot of that to get it to work. Almost all of it together. Yeah. Yeah. And then and then the live local thing, you know, some many municipalities are frowning upon it, but it's not crazy. I mean, now you can build workforce housing where you're building a tower that no regular person can afford to buy in, but now you can live close to the school that you teach at. I mean, that's a big deal. I mean, I have teachers at our school, at our kids' school, that commute an hour plus each way. So this teacher spending two to three hours in a car each day, and you want them to show up at school with a smile on their face to teach your kids.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:28

At like six in the morning, probably too.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:29

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So like if you can help solve that, help bridge that gap, and and I think you should that should be your priority.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:37

Yeah, then you also have the issue of um man, I'm like on his last name. Uh what's it? Um Whitman Lazenby, Matthew.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:46

When he's trying to build all the workforce on top of all harbor shops and the neighbors are losing their minds. Oh and but the NIMBY's, yeah. The NIMBY's are a big problem too. Yeah. So I don't have enough inside information to know exactly what that project looks like, but that's another barrier.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:00

I don't I definitely don't know anything about that project. Um, I haven't been very focused on it. Um, I I have just kind of seen the fight, which is unfortunate. You know, you don't wish that upon anybody, but um you know, there's a lot of people that live there that can't afford to buy expensive home and expensive condos that that work there. I mean, so these these people that work in these stores, which is it's it's it's that mall is critical to Ball Harbor. I mean, it's been a big part of what defined Ball Harbor. And to then, you know, for whatever that project might be. And again, I'm not sure, I don't know all the details around it, but if part of that result is to have workforce housing that allows some of those people that work in that area to live close to where they work, uh I mean how can that be bad?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:45

Block some old ladies' view. Yeah, it's a problem. Possibly, but have you like your story sounds it's just up and to the right the whole time? Have there been any hardships? Like we didn't like what's been like a hard time. Uh community of personally eating shit. Like, what was like the you know is there anything that like what was a challenging part of this this journey you've been on?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:12

The only I've been lucky enough not to have really lost um money on on deals that we've been doing. Um he just thinks his LPs are listening. That's the problem.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:23

Yeah, that's the problem. Never lost money on a deal.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:26

Well, there are deals that that we it's it's funny, we never never gave up on an opportunity. So there were times where those deals were losing money and then they became deals that made money. Um, because we've had some challenges for sure, and we've encountered a variety of hardships. For example, at Avara, we were trying to get a higher building approved there, which is the apartment building at Miami Beach that we developed, and that was a disaster. Um, we that were being fought by everybody on that project, and it was funny because we were gonna build like 70 condos in a taller building, and they were like, No, it's traffic, traffic, traffic. And we were saying, Well, but we can build over 170 apartments. Isn't that more traffic than 70 condos? That maybe only half the people are gonna live in the building. And we got fought to the end.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:18

Um who's fighting that the North Bay Road residents, or who is this?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:21

Um, I I don't even remember at this point.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:23

There's not that many people that live like right there.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:25

There's like a tiny little pocket and then it's North Bay Road. It was so many people. I can't even so weird. And and it would just snowballed into a bit of it.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:39

I don't I get to North Bay Road maybe, but like that little pocket by St. Patrick's, there's like 20 houses, not good.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:46

I mean, it was it was a bunch of different people. That's crazy, and then we ended up getting uh we didn't pursue that. So at that moment in time, that deal was a disaster, right? That was not going as planned. Um value certainly was not there because we didn't know what we were gonna do yet. And then we ended up getting this approved, which we kind of did as a right for the most part, so it wasn't really much of a lift, but it was still a lift. Um because it's whole full redesign, probably. Yeah, we also bought we bought a lot of land from Florida Department of Transportation, so and that required a rezoning. But and I don't need to get into the technicalities of how that works, but um that rezoning was organically going to happen anyway. But we we got that rezoned, we got the approvals done, and we developed this project, which is beautiful. And we we developed it with with with a vision of of you know being sensitive to the community and and the environment and the market there. And we did a lot of things for for the the water and sewer, we did a lot of things for that neighborhood. I mean, we did a drainage stuff, I mean, we did all kinds of things there to help that community, that immediate neighborhood. Um, and not necessarily because we had to, but because we thought it was right and we wanted to. And uh, we developed a beautiful project, but that deal was a mess at one point. It was completely uh upside down, it was not going as planned, and we had to you know revive it, and we did, and now it's a tremendous success breaking records on the rents we're getting. So those are the kind of things that happen.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:11

So we we don't more deal by deal, not you didn't experience an existential like this is a no, I have not.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:18

I've had uh some challenges along the way where at the moment in time you're looking at value and you're a little scared about what's going on, but you know, you you you focus, you roll up your sleeves, and you forge forward and persevere.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:31

What's uh what's the future for Mass look like? I mean, actually, before we do talk about that, I want to talk about Cipriani. Like, what was that? Who brought that idea? Because I think it's uh there's no hotel in this building right now. No, it's just residences, but they're getting the the the hotel level experience with Cipriani. Yes. So where did that come from? Because branded residences are all the rage and people are doing really corny shit, Pagani. And um and uh but I think it's a really well-executed one, and I think you have to be very intentional and focused on when you do a brand partnership like this. So I'd love to hear kind of your thought process on partnering with Cipriani on the building.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:07

You know, the family's great. Um, Giuseppe the father is is he's a gentleman, he's great to work with. Um, they had never done a branded ground-up residence development, and this was their first. And um it's gone well, the relationship's been very strong, and it was interesting because it wasn't just your typical corporate brand, it was like really a family with the legacy and heritage. And the idea was what brand is out one, we didn't want to build the hotel component because financing that was very challenging. And um, so we thought, well, what brand resonates globally and that people are gonna know and recognize and and it's sexy and provide sophistication and and but it's not like unapproachable, right? We wanted something sexy and sophisticated that was approachable and that appealed to a broad base of people. Uh and we came up with, you know, we I was talking to Giuseppe and we're like, we should do this, and we did.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:04

And it's how did you how did you meet them or get introduced to them? Mutual friends. Did you have like this vision before meeting them or did you know them before?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:12

I knew them before. I've thought about doing something with them, but um that came together quickly during uh the acquisition process of the property.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:21

That's really cool. Yeah. The first Cipriani was Venice, right? The first Cipriani, yeah. So that's the the hotel. The wasn't it wasn't it a bar in Venice? You're talking about Harry's bar. I'm talking about Harry's, you're right. Yeah, yeah. Mixing them up.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:33

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:33

So where's the first Cipriani?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:34

But Cipriani Hotel is the the the one in there's one in Venice.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:38

And it's beautiful, it's amazing. It's got a massive pool. It's it's right in A-plus location. It's a great property.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:45

So the residents of the building are gonna be basically feel like they're living in a Cipriani.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:49

Absolutely. It's uh we have two two concepts in your units. You can have the high gloss lacquer, uh wood, dark wood finish, or you can have kind of something more contemporary. And I thought what was funny to me is is is I thought many more people would have, because we're in Miami, would have wanted the contemporary light wood finish.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:11

I immediately went high gloss wood right away when you said that. That's funny. So that's the brand in your high in your head.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:18

Like that's what you and when people talk about Chipriani, they want to live the Chipriani life. And you're right, that's what happened. Yeah. I thought because we were in Miami, we need to have that other that other option. And and more than the the majority of the people have chosen the high gloss dark wood.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:33

We have enough white on white on white on white, but do something different. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. So what's what's the future of uh of Mass like now? Do you guys are you guys pursuing other projects? More more condos? Like what's we are we're pursuing. How can you do a bigger building than 83 stories? You wanted to do bigger, bigger deals. What's next? Are we going 100?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:54

We we we might. Um we're working on something else that's uh that's a super tall tower. Um, we are working on more condo deals. Uh uh, Miami Beach, the Palm Beach area.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:05

Umtice how you skipped over Fort Lauderdale. Yeah, let's let's shit on Fort Lauderdale for a minute. We haven't shit on them in a while. Fly over city. Fly over city. We love talking shit about Fort Lauderdale.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:23

But then you just skipped over Boca, too. I mean, what's what's going on?

SPEAKER_04 1:16:29

It's like the uh the better stepsister of Fort Lauderdale.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:32

That's true. It's it's interesting. I mean, it's uh we're not looking at a lot in Fort Lauderdale. We're not spending a lot of time there. Um, we're trying to spend time in in the even the higher end of the market from from where product's selling for there. But Fort Lauderdale continues to be successful, but it's just not a market we're focused on. So um we are looking at stuff here, Miami Beach, Coconut Grove, Brickle, West Palm. We launched Banyantry. Uh Banyantry residences there, and that's going well. We just launched it uh six weeks ago. How many units? That's uh 88 units. Yeah, in a 23-story building. Cool. Yeah, it's cool because it's gonna have a private club on the top floor, it's gonna have a cool restaurant on the ground floor, and then it's gonna have all the wellness that Banyatry does. So that'll be really nice. And then um, we're still looking at Tampa and the idea here is to do more projects. It's just hard to make sense of things. So it's taking a lot of work to get opportunities to come across the finish line. But the condo assemblage side of the business is a very big major focus of ours because we really think that's the way to unlock premium land and high barrier to entry areas.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:49

It's like the paragon. It's like you it's almost an irreplaceable asset if you're on the sand in that part of South Beach. That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:56

So we're very focused on on looking at the for things like that.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:58

And your office is in uh coconut grove?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:00

It is, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:01

Uh you live you live nearby? Yeah. Okay. Uh how many people are in the office?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:08

We're getting close to 50 people.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:10

Okay. What time do you show up in the office?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:13

You know, I I show up whenever I need to show up. So it's uh sometimes I show up at nine, sometimes I show up at 11.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:20

So it just depends on the day and who I'm meeting with. You still work out? I work out every day. What do you do? I weightlift and I run. You weightlift and run? Yeah. What time do you work out? Early. I mean, I wake up early in the morning.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:32

What time do you wake up?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:33

Like 6 30.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:34

6 30? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:35

I go to gym probably around 7 30.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:37

All right.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:37

Take your kids to school afterwards or my son's 16, so he drives to school now. That's gotta be weird. The fact that I have a 16-year-old. Yeah, but he's driving to school.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:47

I have a seven-year-old and a four-year-old, so just thinking like yeah, when taking them to school is over, it's gotta be weird.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:52

No, it's uh it's uh it is so so weight training, running, you know, and a runner as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:58

Anything else? Any other sports?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:59

No, I play tennis once in a while. Yeah. Um, and that's it. I don't really, I mean, the other day I played paddle. Okay, but I don't do it regularly.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:08

Oh, that's good. We like that. We like to shit on paddle and pickleball as well. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:15

And for a lottery. And for a lottery, yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:18

But we like that you play uh tennis. You should try out beach tennis if you like racket sports. We're gonna get you out on the beach tennis course. We'll compete. I love competing. I love competing too. Yeah, absolutely. I find someone that likes a little racket in their head.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:36

Yeah, hell yeah. Um you got the integra guys out there, didn't you?

SPEAKER_04 1:19:40

Yeah, we got uh Nelson uh playing beach tennis.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:44

And his uh that one guy that you said Kidding dust.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:47

Yeah, he was fucking good. Yeah, who was good? Uh Nelson uh Sabil Sabil. Yeah, he played he uh we played beach tennis with him.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:55

But he had what was the guy's I don't want to call him an analyst, but he had like an employee that was like an analyst.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:00

This guy was playing tennis in California. He was amazing.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:04

Came to beach tennis and everyone.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:06

He did. Um cool. What else? Anything else, Ben? I think it's it. Yeah, yeah. Camille, this was really a pleasure. No, it was great talking to you guys. Yeah, we really enjoyed this conversation. Thanks for coming in as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:17

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:18

And uh congrats on your daughter's uh graduation.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:21

Yeah, from here I gotta have to go shower, and she's starting high school next year.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:26

So you have you have a 16-year-old, uh my 14-year-old daughter, yeah. Just two, just two, just two.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:31

All right, do they speak Spanish too or no? They do not as well as I would like them to. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's easier when you have the mom and it's like you don't speak to me in Spanish, I'm not talking to you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:44

Where'd you meet your wife, by the way? She you said she's Iranian. Yeah, I met her in New York. Okay. All right. Cool. Well, thank you, Camilo. Have a wonderful afternoon and a great weekend. It's great. And uh we got to hang out for a couple hours. Absolutely. All right, Camilo. Thank you. See you later.