182. Backing Yourself: Confrontation, Self-Love, and Slaying toxic friendships on vacation

Why do people avoid confrontation, and how does self-love change that?

In this raw, unfiltered group chat, Katherine confronts her people-pleasing past after two brutal friendship "breakups" on a group trip—exposing victim mindsets, the pain of old dynamics clashing with new growth, and the thrill of finally holding court. Eldar drops wisdom on self-love as the ultimate autopilot for healthy bonds, while Toliy's coffee machine meltdown sparks a hilarious epiphany about his own messy delusions. Tommy wrestles with imposter vibes, Mike metaphors the hell out of resentment buildup, and the crew laughs through the chaos of therapy breakthroughs, boundary-setting fails, and why truth always wins. If you've ever bitten your tongue to keep the peace (and regretted it), this episode's your wake-up call—packed with laughs, aha moments, and zero bullshit. Tune in to level up your confrontations and reclaim your fun with the world.

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Chapters

• 1:09 Discussing Confrontation and Self-Doubt
• 6:50 The Clash of Identities
• 13:31 Self-Love and Relationship Dynamics
• 21:51 Balancing Personal and Professional Life
• 36:45 The Importance of Apologies
• 51:16 Victimhood and Narcissism
• 1:07:58 Imposter Syndrome and Self-Worth
• 1:12:26 Jealousy and Victim Mentality
• 1:34:01 Phoenix and Gryffindor
• 1:44:01 Morning Coffee Ritual
• 1:51:43 Final Thoughts and Moving Forward

Transcript

[00:00:00] Dennis: On this week's episode, 

[00:00:01] Katherine: I'm scared of the world. I don't think I know how to have fun with like, the world. The world, yeah. You know, I think the self-doubt and like insecurities have to do something with it. 

[00:00:10] Tommy: Is love the missing piece here. You said find those pockets of freedom. Right? And those pockets of freedom for me might be like, how, well, how do you bring this into the world?

[00:00:21] How do you align that outer world with that inner 

[00:00:24] Eldar: world? When confrontation comes easy, that means you do actually back yourself and you have something to stand on, right? Yeah. Because like I don't rely on like guilt or anybody else to convince me to do the right thing. I, I just kind of do it and I, I stand on it.

[00:00:35] I know what's right. I know what's wrong.

[00:00:43] We got it guys. Welcome back from a nice little trip. Um, Tom, welcome back. Alright, thank you Catherine. Welcome back. Thank you. Yeah. You guys haven't been here in a while, but Tom, two weeks in a row. That's, uh, that's, that's probably worth, that's probably worth the celebration. 

[00:00:57] Mike: Mm-hmm. Can you blame the 

[00:01:01] Eldar: celebration Track the celebration track?

[00:01:02] Okay. 

[00:01:03] Mike: Don't 

[00:01:03] Eldar: go. 

[00:01:05] Mike: Is that Warren? 

[00:01:06] Eldar: Yeah. Don't go. Uh, we can start with Catherine's thing, right? I think this is an important one because I'm not sure if we really talked about it a lot, but I think we definitely in passing talk about it a lot. Uh, confrontation. 

[00:01:19] Mm-hmm. 

[00:01:19] Why are so many people are shying away from it, right.

[00:01:23] Why don't, we don't speak our minds when we feel something. 

[00:01:27] Mm-hmm. 

[00:01:28] Right? Why is it that we want to spare someone's feelings, someone else's feelings, um, or keep peace in that matter, versus getting into a confrontation that can potentially lead us to a better place? Mm-hmm. Let's just say, right? Uh, a lot of times confrontation can lead us to finding out who we are.

[00:01:48] It sometimes leads us to find out who the other person is. Sometimes you get to the point where, depending on who's standing on which ground behind the truth or not, you can develop a, a level of respect for the other person, right? There's, I think, there's so many things. There's so many outcomes that can come out, out of confrontational communication that is super necessary, and anyone who avoids, well, we're gonna talk about Catherine here specifically, who's a, a notorious people pleaser, right?

[00:02:18] Who avoids these types of confrontations, I think is stripping themselves away from actual lessons that are embodied in confrontations. Mike and Toley has been, have been in verbal confrontations for a very long time. I think they, they're probably a very good example as to what they, you know, maybe you guys can attest to it and bring up some of these examples here where you've learned something.

[00:02:42] From your interactions with each other or going through those confrontations, how you've learned them and how you've grown from them. You know what I mean? Um, and maybe Catherine can learn a thing or two from being able to, you know, also mm-hmm. Find ways to confront, you know, her feelings, other people's feelings, and in a matter where she can find some growth for herself.

[00:03:04] Mm-hmm. And not be so hidden all the time and needing to just fill the air a void with people pleasing quotes and nice niceness that doesn't lead anywhere. 

[00:03:16] Mm-hmm. 

[00:03:17] Babe, you got a big problem on your hands. 

[00:03:21] Katherine: He, he I do. Yeah. I think it's, it's, it's like finding a voice, um, but also like, you know, standing up for myself or just being able to speak up when I feel something.

[00:03:34] You know, I'm comfortable with you. I know I'm the closest with, you know, so I know I can do that with you. But just in general, that's, that's pretty hard. 

[00:03:45] Eldar: I know for me. 

[00:03:45] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:03:46] Eldar: And I, I was thinking about that. I was like, why can't you do it with me? But you can't do it with, let's just say more friends. Well, I'm the most 

[00:03:52] Katherine: comfortable.

[00:03:53] Mm-hmm. I'm the clo You're the closest person to me. Like, I'm the most comfortable with you. 

[00:03:56] Eldar: You love me. 

[00:03:57] Katherine: Yeah. But you also, you see me like you, you know, you, I come to the bullshit. You know exactly who I am. Yeah. You've seen the good, the bad, the everything. Mm-hmm. Like you, you know me for real. 

[00:04:08] Eldar: Yeah. But you love me, right?

[00:04:09] Katherine: Of course. 

[00:04:10] Eldar: And you present yourself naturally or organically. As true as possible. Correct. Yes. So there you go. So why wouldn't you want to present yourself like that in the world as well? 

[00:04:21] Katherine: As you say, don't you have the most amount of fun with me? I'm scared of the world, as you say. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I have the most fun with you.

[00:04:27] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:04:28] Katherine: Yeah. I don't think I know how to have fun with like, 

[00:04:31] Eldar: the world. 

[00:04:31] Katherine: The world. Yeah. You know? I, you know. Yeah. I think, I think the self-doubt and like insecurities might like have to do something with it. 

[00:04:41] Eldar: Is love the missing, missing piece here, because I know the world can be, uh, scary, you know, fear, you could be fearful of the world, right?

[00:04:50] Mm-hmm. And Tommy clearly expressed that before we started rolling, right? Like, Hey, be careful with what you say. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Because people are listening and they might feel a certain type of way. Mm-hmm. 

[00:04:59] You 

[00:04:59] know? But ultimately, um, would you be able to extract that type of fun or any type of fun if you are constantly biting your tongue?

[00:05:09] And with that being said, even Tom, when, when I showed that tweet that I was saying about Bruce Willis the other day mm-hmm. I was like, holy shit, I can't believe, like you said, that kind of shit. And like you just rolling with it. You just say what's on your mind kind of thing, and you try to mm-hmm. Have fun with the world, you know?

[00:05:23] Like, to him it was like a baffling thing to me. It's like a very organic and normal thing. I'm, I'm still learning social media. Yeah. I'm aware of that. Yeah. Figure things out. Um, and I think it's super necessary for us to be able to apply ourselves onto the world and not allow the world to apply itself on us.

[00:05:41] Mm-hmm. Onto us. 

[00:05:43] Yeah. So you want hiding? Mm-hmm. Yeah, pretty much. Um, 

[00:05:52] Thomas' in hiding. 

[00:05:54] Mike: I was, I was thinking, I have a question. Maybe like, uh, is the core of it the fear of confrontation or is it something else that's like actually the, the culprit here? Like what? When you said like, yeah, you're very comfortable with LDAR.

[00:06:13] Yeah. Right. But then you're not comfortable like, I guess everywhere else, most places, let's just say it. Mm-hmm. Enough to be everywhere, but 

[00:06:21] Katherine: not comfortable enough, I guess. Not 

[00:06:23] Mike: comfortable enough. Mm-hmm. But is that because you know who you are with elder? Like you've picked a side, you've picked like a, an identity, if you want to call it, to make it like a little bit.

[00:06:35] 'cause I think that, that, that's where it might lie. Like, you know who you are as Catherine who is a wife to elder. 

[00:06:40] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:06:41] Mike: You might not know who you are as Catherine a friend to somebody or like a, as a daughter to somebody or like a, something like that. Mm-hmm. Hmm. So my question is, you've picked a side when it comes to being like a, a wife to Ldar, and I think, uh, have, maybe it's because you haven't picked a side of who you are, just like, uh, in the other, in the other, like things maybe like, um, you haven't taken a stance.

[00:07:10] Yeah. I think I'm So who you are as an individual in the other aspects of, uh, I think, not that we're different, like just 'cause you're a wife child doesn't mean you should behave, be like a completely out of pocket or a completely opposite or anything. 

[00:07:22] Eldar: Well, that's what it is though. 

[00:07:23] Mike: It's completely the 

[00:07:24] Eldar: opposite, 

[00:07:24] Mike: but right 

[00:07:25] Eldar: now it's out opposite.

[00:07:26] Yeah. It it's actually out of the pocket right now. Yeah. Right now it's outta the pocket. Yeah. Where there's one Catherine. Mm-hmm. But there's a completely different Catherine. Yes. You know? Mm-hmm. Once she presents yourself to the world and to our friends, let's just say, yeah. You know, I think I know where you're going with this because I know you struggle with something like this as well mm-hmm.

[00:07:41] Where you presented one image, you didn't take a side. Mm-hmm. You, you know, you constantly co you know, like Yeah. Have that dilemma. 

[00:07:46] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[00:07:47] Eldar: You know? Yeah. It's, it's a very good question. 

[00:07:49] Katherine: It's, it's a good question. I think, I think it has to do with me still like, like figuring out who I am. Like 

[00:07:56] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:07:57] Katherine: Like what, what really am I about?

[00:07:59] You know, when I met Eldar, our, like, I saw that like fundamentally, like we had the same vision of the things that we wanted in life. 

[00:08:08] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:09] Katherine: Um, in terms of like, I don't know, the relationship, the relationship, you know, wanting to have a family, those, those sort of things. Like I knew that, like what are the things that, that I maybe want to get outta life, but like today, presently, I think that I'm still like figuring that out, you know?

[00:08:27] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:28] Katherine: Like finding my identity. What do I stand for? Even, um, as silly as like, as politics, like politics are, there's something that, it's so, like, it's such a complicated thing right now in the world where like, we're all so divided and even navigating. So like, where do I fall in that? Like, I don't, I don't feel identified in either one, so I'm like somewhere in the middle.

[00:08:51] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:51] Katherine: Um, but that's just one, like one small example of like where I fall, like where do I fall in this world? Like, who am I, what, what really, what really is Catherine? You know? And I think that sometimes I present myself in, in like relationships in a certain type of way. 

[00:09:08] Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:08] That, um, I don't know when it, when it comes time for 

[00:09:12] Eldar: me to like maybe just actually, um,

[00:09:21] maybe flip the, not flip the script, but I think that 

[00:09:24] Katherine: like, for example, these two most relationship, like the two relationships that I've recently like, have split from, I think there was a dynamic. Of these longstanding relationships of a old version of Catherine that I don't know exactly how to navigate now.

[00:09:44] Trying to kind of be like a newer self. Does that make sense? It does make sense. Like a newer version of myself. Yeah. So like that also goes back to boundary setting, which I've been, you know, learning through in therapy for the last few years. But it's, it's hard to, to kind of, you know, maybe get out of the old dynamics and like be this newer version of myself that I'm not fully sure on how I need to go about, I guess.

[00:10:08] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:08] Katherine: Especially with old relationships, you know? 

[00:10:10] Eldar: Yeah. No, I think it's easier with a newer 

[00:10:12] Katherine: person, obviously, to just be myself, but 

[00:10:14] Eldar: that's why I think it's gonna be interesting when you do develop some maybe new relationships. Mm-hmm. But yeah, I think the clash of identities is a big one here because as Catherine continues to work on herself and does therapy and stuff like that and learns new ways of setting boundaries with those other stuff, right?

[00:10:28] She's like, okay, I like this. This works for me, this works for me. Now, the application of that to the old self is where the clash happens, right? Where those relationships mm-hmm. That are not on that new dynamic, right? Mm-hmm. Uh, are naturally are gonna be tested and that's what's going on. Mm-hmm. And that's what happened.

[00:10:45] Yeah. 

[00:10:45] Tommy: Also, like, what do you mean by that? All then 

[00:10:47] Eldar: These old relationships? Well, for example, right, for if Catherine was a people pleaser, or is a people pleaser. Yeah. And disagrees with this fundamentally and realizes that people pleasing is not serving her, right? Yeah. So she's gonna learn a new strategy, let's just say.

[00:11:01] Setting boundaries, right? Yep. It is much harder to set those boundaries with the old relationships that you have, that you've been upkeeping. Mm-hmm. By people pleasing those people. Oh, it's easier to set up these boundaries with new relationships, let's just say. Oh, wow. Right. Wow. 'cause if you start being a little bit too strict, what's gonna happen is, you know, there's gonna be a big rift, and it's gonna be, I mean, it's gonna be witnessed.

[00:11:23] I mean, people are gonna see it, and you're gonna feel it, you know, Uhhuh. So there's gonna be a big clash between what's new and what she's believing. So what you're saying is onto the, you have to 

[00:11:32] Tommy: kind of distance yourself in, in a sense from, I'm saying old saying, I'm 

[00:11:35] Eldar: not making, I'm not making any suggestions yet.

[00:11:37] Oh, you're 

[00:11:37] Tommy: not making any, I'm not making, 

[00:11:38] Eldar: I'm just trying to describe the phenomena that's happening. 

[00:11:41] Tommy: Oh, okay. Yeah. Between old and new, hypothetically. Correct. There's a clash. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Correct. 

[00:11:45] Katherine: And I think something right before you started elaborating on that, I think one of the things that is also conflicting for me is also, you know, if I established those relationships a long time ago, I think also the, the fun, like the value is also off.

[00:12:03] You know, like, like there's things now that I, you know, there's something, some things that are more fundamental to me now in terms of values or like, that I would value in a friendship or any relationship, for example, right? Mm-hmm. And so now, you know, for a friendship that I maybe developed 20 years ago when I was, you know, 15, 14, or, you know, whatever.

[00:12:25] It might be very different to what I'm seeking for now. Correct. In terms of understanding, support, uh, you know, values, anything like that, you know, whether it's a romantic relationship or a friendship or anything like that. And so I am a different person than I was back then. Correct. And so I might be going through multiple things.

[00:12:44] It's like, okay, well where's the, like, the real value here? You know, like, we're fundamentally different. I don't always know how to like stick up for myself or speak up. So I think it's like a, like a, a clash of a couple of things. Yeah. That just rattles me a little bit, you know? For sure. 

[00:13:01] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. And you don't know how to properly introduce that into those old relationships.

[00:13:05] Right. You can't almost like, hey, like, let me just give you this USB stick Yeah. With all my progress. Mm-hmm. Right. Please watch it. And now you know who the new Catherine is. Right. You have to kind of almost download that information into that individual through communication. Yeah. Right. So that you can establish newfound respect lines, 

[00:13:23] right?

[00:13:24] Mm-hmm. New way of communicating all that other stuff. If you don't, what's gonna happen is what happened. Yeah. 

[00:13:30] Mm-hmm. 

[00:13:31] Mike: I also think it's like, um, it's a, so it's like ultimately what I think Catherine is working on, and I think everybody who's in like a, in a self development kind of thing is, uh, learning like, uh, like self love.

[00:13:49] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:13:50] Mike: You know? Mm-hmm. And I think, yeah. Uh, like to really explain, it would take a long time to explain like, what does self-love mean? But I think it's, um, like, um, to be, I guess brief, but it's knowing how you wanna live by like, which I guess principles or whatever. Mm-hmm. And then sticking to them and, and like in a way like, um, preserving that within yourself.

[00:14:20] So you, you feel you become much more, uh, sensitive and aware when people try to, that you interact with, try to cross those lines that mm-hmm. Would not allow you to continue to practice self-love towards yourself. Mm-hmm. And I think as you are developing now, and I think you're becoming much more sensitive in these things, and I think that's why these two relationships, um, ended the way they did, because you're now taking a stance for yourself and saying, Hey, I can't go there.

[00:14:53] You, we are not doing this anymore. You know? Yeah. And I think, I think that's why it kind of played out. But I do think ultimately like the goal here, um, or the path is to have that self-love. And I think in ama, in like a relationship which have, with Aldar, I think that. Like, uh, because you guys has have like a, not not only self-love, but love towards each other.

[00:15:19] It provides a lot of strength. And it also in a way, um, I don't know if, I don't wanna say it's like easy, but I think everybody naturally gravitates towards wanting to have that romantic love. Mm-hmm. You know? So it kind of maybe comes easier in a certain way, maybe not. I don't know. I've think about it, but I think we're pre-programmed for that, you know?

[00:15:49] Mm-hmm. So I think it's, um, that's why you have probably a really good relationship with elder. Yeah, that's, that's a 

[00:15:56] Katherine: good point. I actually don't, I don't know how I would put that into words. I, I haven't thought about it, but it's a good point. 

[00:16:05] Eldar: I think our relationship at least is, uh, is more so on the, uh, maybe autopilot.

[00:16:10] Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:10] Because of the fact that we have a, a longstanding story. 

[00:16:13] Mm-hmm. Right. 

[00:16:14] Where we first met, you know, uh, I knew and I felt certain things right? Mm-hmm. About myself and about Catherine right away that I knew that there's a lot of walls, there's a lot of problems that Catherine's carrying mm-hmm.

[00:16:26] Right. Anxieties and things like that about the world that I don't necessarily share with her. Yeah. I share a lot of, you know, there's obviously, if you say, Hey, you want respect, she's gonna say yes, I want respect. Oh, you want loyalty? Yeah, of course. Mm-hmm. Common sense things. Right. Obviously we bond on, but then there's greater things, I think, like the fun, the functioning of yourself, the self-love and interacting with the world in a specific way.

[00:16:47] Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:47] There's a story there. Yeah. You know what I mean? And that story is still continuing. You know, we're constantly, you know, working on that stuff. And that's where, where it becomes very interesting where mm-hmm. You know, as you I said, said before, every time Catherine kind of has an epiphany or develops or has the ability to apply her new self upon the world, and they're like, yo, look at this.

[00:17:06] I've discovered this and I'm doing so much better. I'm doing this, I'm doing that. Like, I get to fall in love with her because of the fact that we've put wheels in motion 

[00:17:14] mm-hmm. 

[00:17:15] That are like, it's, it's never ending. And I think that's what love is. It's like a never ending growth development. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean?

[00:17:23] And because two people said, raised their hand and said, yes, I'm willing to go on this journey together. 

[00:17:28] Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:28] They, they have this, uh, ongoing blessing. From love, from God. From love. Yeah. That is like a, a continuing, you know, all the time. And anytime that there's a pause or we do something wrong, obviously we don't feel good.

[00:17:41] Yeah. If you don't do what's right, but when she has these types of moments, I think these moments are amazing for her. Mm-hmm. Right. And I feel it, and I know it. It's a great time to reflect. It's a great time to learn and then, you know, and grow. 

[00:17:54] Mm-hmm. And 

[00:17:54] I'm looking forward to her growth through this, and I told you this, you know?

[00:17:58] Yeah. 

[00:17:58] Because these are important steps in her life to make that choice, which you say, Hey, you gotta pick a side. If you don't choose a side of who you want to be and how you want to present yourself in order to preserve self-love 

[00:18:08] mm-hmm. 

[00:18:09] You're gonna have problems. 

[00:18:10] Yeah. 

[00:18:10] I'm here for those problems and I'm here for the growth.

[00:18:13] Mm-hmm. You 

[00:18:13] know what I'm saying? Yeah. Because I, I, I mean, a long time ago, I've under, like, I took a side myself that, you know mm-hmm. I think the highest level of compassion is to be able to be patient with an individual to see those things through. 

[00:18:26] Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:26] That's my love. Yeah. That's how I see it. 

[00:18:28] Mm-hmm.

[00:18:29] You know, Catherine's c Catherine's journey in this, you know, my, my job is to constantly remind her that that self-love is there. You should, you know, do the self-love part. You know, you're not, you are waking up every time sleep deprived. What's the most important thing right now? It's sleep. 

[00:18:44] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:18:44] Eldar: Figure it out.

[00:18:45] My job is to kind of remind her of that. Yeah. Where she's the one who's taking away from that because she's so caught up in some delusion that she's created about the world. 

[00:18:55] Mike: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Do you feel like, uh, a big part of love is I. Promoting and allowing that person to be the best version of themselves.

[00:19:04] Right. Like the partner you're with. 

[00:19:06] Eldar: I think the big part of love is to find the pockets of freedom at the right time. To be able to say your message without making it an unsolicited advice like Tom likes to do upon Harris. Can I 

[00:19:17] Katherine: add to that? Yeah. 

[00:19:18] Eldar: Like 

[00:19:19] Katherine: I, I agree with that, but also acceptance. Yeah.

[00:19:21] Because you've been, like, he just mentioned patience. Yeah. You've been very patient with me Yeah. Throughout this whole time. But you also have accepted me with all those anxieties and all that stuff that you felt Yeah. You knew from day one. Yeah. You, you knew. Yeah. You know, I had a big wall up and you felt it.

[00:19:37] Yeah. And you addressed it on the first I said I could do it. 

[00:19:40] Eldar: Well, got this, you know, he 

[00:19:41] Katherine: said, I'm gonna knock down those walls. And I was like, who talks like that? Who says that? I just met you. You know? 

[00:19:47] Eldar: Yeah. But he was right. She falls love instantly. Mm-hmm. I, 

[00:19:49] Katherine: I absolutely did. And you wanna know what, as an anxious and insecure as I was at the time,

[00:20:00] I've never been more sure about him. Like 

[00:20:04] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[00:20:05] Katherine: All that stuff was out the window. 

[00:20:06] Eldar: Mm-hmm. You know, so grabbed my hand. Like, 

[00:20:08] Katherine: if he would've said, Hey, I am, we're skydiving tomorrow. I'd been like, yeah, I'm holding your hand and we're doing it together. It, it was, there was no doubt. Mm-hmm. You know, I have doubts about a lot of stuff in life.

[00:20:21] But that was the, that has been like the one constant for me. Mm-hmm. That's something just, 

[00:20:26] Eldar: yeah. There's a, something that I'm together Sure of together. Yeah. Ever. We've been together almost 17 years together and that journey is still that same journey. Mm-hmm. We're still breaking down those walls. I'm still at work.

[00:20:36] Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? I committed 30 years. Mm-hmm. We're gonna see what happens. She got 13 years left. She better hurry up. So she's a person. If he drops me in 

[00:20:43] Katherine: my fifties, I'm gonna be really upset. 

[00:20:44] Eldar: I might, I listen, my word is my word. I gotta keep my word and then we'll see. We have to Yeah.

[00:20:49] Reevaluate. Reevaluate the, the ship. I'm 

[00:20:51] Katherine: gonna be old and gray. Yeah. 

[00:20:53] Eldar: As long as you're wise. Yeah. You know what I mean? That's the most important part here. Even if we're gray, that's fine. But Yeah. So yeah. The job is to kind of remind the individual that sometimes forgets that the most important thing is self-love.

[00:21:08] Yeah. 

[00:21:08] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:09] Eldar: You know, in order to remove those delusions about yourself and about the world and the way you perceive Yeah. Yourself in it. 

[00:21:15] Mike: And to do it in the right way. Yeah. Because a lot of times you could want the best, but the approach 

[00:21:21] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:21:22] Mike: Is the, is the wrong one. And then, and I think 

[00:21:23] Eldar: that's why we always talk about the approach, right?

[00:21:25] How do we learn as people? Yeah. How do we actually make strides and changes about ourselves and the world that we live in. 

[00:21:32] Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:33] Because it's hard, as you can see, you know, Tommy likes to do it by force. 

[00:21:37] Tommy: Yes. I was just saying yesterday, 

[00:21:39] Katherine: Tommy, I was 

[00:21:40] Tommy: just saying yesterday that I take myself seriously too.

[00:21:43] Seriously. You remember that? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I thought about this last night and, and I was thinking. You know, I was thinking that, you know, it's one, one of the reasons for my unhappiness is that I see myself doing the work, essentially. It's like I realize that it doesn't, what, it doesn't matter how much money make, it doesn't matter if you make very little money or you work odd jobs throughout your life.

[00:22:16] Like if you have no savings or whatever, it doesn't, the, the amount of money that you have, you know, like in my particular situation, that's, that happens to be true. You know, I don't make a lot of money. Um, but something that I found to be true is that, um, you know, I was telling you this morning how life passing you by is like a huge thing for me.

[00:22:39] Mm. It's like a huge source of anxiety. Like life passing you by, or time passing or life already having passed you by is like a huge source of anxiety for me. Um, but when we talk about like, happiness, um, I think one of the sources, like of my unhappiness is that, um, I see myself as like almost doing everything, but I can't figure out what the hell I'm doing wrong.

[00:23:07] You see what I'm saying? Mm. So like I told you guys, I, I like what I do. I enjoy reading and writing. Um, and like when I'm not here. Like, I'm enjoying myself. But we decided like, yeah, that's only partially true. Only only part of that is true. And I think, um, and I think that, that it's, it's myself taking, take me, taking myself too seriously that that gets put into that slot.

[00:23:35] Like of this idea that, um, you know, I'm, I'm like doing something continuously, but the work itself is like, you know what I mean? I'm not finding happiness in it. 

[00:23:49] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:23:49] Tommy: Essentially. Like I enjoy it, but I'm not finding Yeah. It's complicated. Like you said, find those pockets of, of freedom. Right. And those pockets of freedom for me might be like, well, how do you bring this into the world?

[00:24:04] Like, how do you, you know, how do you, um, align that outer world with that inner world? 

[00:24:11] Eldar: Well, you don't have to, you don't have to ever bridge that gap. If you said, look, I don't wanna make money and I don't care about money, then you could be an artist and create art that nobody ever sees. Right. For example.

[00:24:25] Yes. And you're gonna be okay because you said, Hey. 

[00:24:27] Yeah, 

[00:24:27] the stuff that I do, I like it. It makes me happy. So just be happy. You, I mean, you'll be poor and society standards, but you'll be the richest person in the world because you have yourself, right. And you have your happiness. Right. So who cares about the money then?

[00:24:39] Right? But you're not taking that stance. 

[00:24:42] Tommy: No, not yet. No. 

[00:24:45] Eldar: Hopscotch from one to another. You want to be a prestigious artist that upon words, 

[00:24:50] Tommy: Lord, suck on this. Yeah. 

[00:24:51] Eldar: You know, you wanna be that guy. So if you want to be that guy, Tom, I think it is also possible, but I think it's impossible for you to be in your own cave looking at your own stuff and never publish something.

[00:25:04] You would then have to publish a product and somebody has to buy it in order for you to then receive something and that someone is the world. But if you can't make an impression upon the world in such a way that is, I guess, maybe valuable to the world out there, then nobody's gonna pay you and you're never gonna get to that point that you're thinking of.

[00:25:22] Esteeming yourself. Yeah, yeah. Right. So you gotta, it's the same thing that Catherine has, right? You gotta choose a side because if you don't choose a side, right? Then you on this, in this limbo, on one hand you are at home hiding with eldar and you can mouth off to me and show your true self or whatever.

[00:25:39] Mm-hmm. But on you come un tell into the world and you this like, likewise nice little girly that cares about everyone's feelings, right? And fills the void with, you know, all the niceness. But that's not the truth of the matter. 'cause then it still bites you in the ass. 'cause you come home and then you vent like, oh, look what she said and that couldn't say anything and uh, and didn't want to get into confrontational all this stuff.

[00:26:00] Then what are you living? Pick a side. You know what I mean? 

[00:26:04] Tommy: Yeah. Yeah. I, it's funny. I don't know. I, I guess, um, 

[00:26:08] Katherine: it's like I have to learn how to socialize. I never knew 

[00:26:10] Tommy: 100%. I never 

[00:26:11] Katherine: properly learned it. Sorry. Tell me for interrupting. Yes, 

[00:26:13] Toliy: that is correct. Mm-hmm. But I think it's also like, uh, uh, like, based on what, what I was hearing at least, like, um, like I don't feel like it's like a, uh, wait, you didn't 

[00:26:23] Eldar: introduce yourself.

[00:26:23] Who are you? Oh, 

[00:26:24] Toliy: hi. Hi, I'm Ian. I'm college. Who's 

[00:26:27] Eldar: that? 

[00:26:28] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. Um, like I, I, I don't feel like it's a fear of confrontation. 

[00:26:35] Eldar: Okay. 

[00:26:35] Toliy: You know? 

[00:26:36] Eldar: Well, do you agree with the fact that they, they need to choose a side and bridge the gap between one identity to another? 

[00:26:41] Toliy: Yeah. See, I had, I've, I've always had a problem with like, like the phrase of choosing a side, because some, 

[00:26:48] Eldar: like, well, let me apply this to you.

[00:26:49] Yeah. Let me apply this to your scenario. For a very long time, you wanted to spare your parents and your sister, correct? 

[00:26:56] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:26:57] Eldar: What were you doing and why? 

[00:26:59] Toliy: Like, um, spare them like, like in what? Wait. 

[00:27:03] Eldar: Alright. You wanted to spare them from punishment or telling them how it is? Yeah. And really like, you know, you wanted to protect them, right?

[00:27:09] Yeah. You didn't want them to fall. You're like, Hey, Lisa, uh, you shouldn't do this. You shouldn't do that. You shouldn't do this. There's a pitfall there. There's a, there's a, all this stuff, right? Yeah. You had your own agenda. You, you had your own stuff. Yeah. When you come here. You don't wanna spare anyone, right?

[00:27:24] No. You call it how it is. You took your shit. He's 

[00:27:26] Katherine: the meanest guy in the group. 

[00:27:28] Eldar: He's the meanest guy in the group. You know what I mean? But when it came to his parents, his, and, and, and his sister, all of a sudden he's this nice little fluffy bunny. What's up with that? And now he's, now, what's up with that?

[00:27:39] Right. What's up with that man? But now he's bridging, he's finally bridging that gap. I 

[00:27:43] Katherine: think Gina would agree with us. Yeah. It won't 

[00:27:45] Eldar: be money. Yeah. And now he's bridging that gap and he's realized like, look, this ain't working. Those are people too, these are people too, and we learn work the same way.

[00:27:54] Mm-hmm. He's realizing that he needs to be applied and be consistent with your character. This is what we're talking about. 

[00:28:01] Toliy: Yeah. But I don't think that like, it's like a, um, like a choice necessarily. I think it's like a, um, like it's like a, like a belief in how things work. Right. So it's knowledge. Yeah.

[00:28:13] Like one, once you understand how things work, you, you, you have no choice in the matter. Yeah. Like, you can't not pick a side. Like, it's like a 

[00:28:21] Eldar: Okay. 

[00:28:21] Toliy: Like, there, there's only one way of doing things, 

[00:28:24] Eldar: basically. So how do you help them know? How do you give 

[00:28:26] Toliy: them 

[00:28:26] Eldar: advice on that? 

[00:28:27] Toliy: Well, well, well, first off, I wanted to say that I, I, I don't think that like Kat has like a fear of like, um, of confrontation.

[00:28:37] Um, I think it's probably a fear of like, um, like a, like, like it's an attachment thing. Mm-hmm. You know, because like one, one thing, for example, with elder and those people in New Orleans. Right. And that and that famous video that we like. Mm-hmm. Right? They like, they're ready to hold court always at any, like second, give a context and there's like, 

[00:28:59] Eldar: huh.

[00:28:59] Give the context to the people. 

[00:29:01] Toliy: What of, of those New Orleans people. Yeah. Yeah. I also have 

[00:29:03] Katherine: an idea where you're Yeah, 

[00:29:05] Toliy: they're, there're, there're a very funny gangster video gangsters of, of, of a gangster being interviewed. And he said, I'm not going to prison. Like if I get caught, like if I get caught by the cops, I'm holding court right now.

[00:29:17] Meaning that like, he's going, he's, he's gonna have a shootout basically. He is like, I I'm not gonna win in that court. He says he's a two time felon. Yeah. He is like, my only chance to win is the whole court right now. So he, he, he, he knows that if he goes into their game, he gets arrested and goes through like the process.

[00:29:36] He knows he is not winning that. So because of that, he already knows this. He's like, I'm I, I gotta hold court right now. Like, it's either me dying or they dying to, you know. So like from like an add attitude perspective, like Elder has like a per permanent like feeling of this right? Where like he, he is, he is ready to hold court at any, any second with anybody, you know, over anything that, that needs to be mm-hmm.

[00:30:04] Held. So, um, because, because of that, he has, he has like an ultimate like non-attachment mentality and like. Not, not being confrontational, for example, or not having those conversations. It, it, I think it'll, it, it, it, it stems from like attachment to like a relationship attachment to like a way of like things being right.

[00:30:30] And if you don't have that, then, then you would never, like, not want to have a confrontation like that. That would only make sense because it would be necessary, 

[00:30:38] Eldar: you know, I get, I get what you're 

[00:30:40] Toliy: saying. Yeah. Um, so like, I thinking like, um, when, like, like in, in that moment that you had, I think that once you felt that like, um, like you got basically like by, by every, by everybody, like backing up your feelings, right?

[00:31:01] Like you, you had no problem having that confrontation and you had no problem actually being like as extreme, let's just say, if you wanna call it that as possible in the moment. Right. I held 

[00:31:12] Eldar: court right there. 

[00:31:13] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. You were willing to hold court right there because like, I feel like everyone supported your, your like belief and like, no one was like saying that like, Hey, what you're doing is wrong or what you're feeling is not valid, or like, what, what, what you're saying is not correct.

[00:31:29] So I feel like once you had that backing from, from like a group perspective, it was very easy for you to be as confrontational Yeah. As possible. Literally by like Yeah. Kicking someone off mid Tripp like that. Yeah. That like, that's like, that's wild. That's a very big deal, right? Yeah. But. Um, Tom's like, we, I think that you can get to get somebody off grease.

[00:31:47] Yeah. But, but I think that you can get to that point to, to have enough backing for yourself. 

[00:31:53] Katherine: Right. Exactly. Where you could do 

[00:31:55] Toliy: that with, without like the, uh, lift of others where, you 

[00:31:57] Katherine: know. Exactly. Right. 

[00:31:59] Toliy: Um, but you know, I I, I, I think it would be you valuing like, um, yeah, probably like you valuing yourself and like Yeah.

[00:32:09] Like how, how you want to go about life, I guess. Yeah. You wanna back yourself. Yeah. I, I, yeah, 

[00:32:13] Katherine: you wanna back yourself. 'cause I'll tell you what, um, if it hadn't, like, because I was, you know, obviously we went through the situation together. You guys were part of it. I was talking to you guys about it. We witnessed the whole thing.

[00:32:25] We witnessed it. And especially you too, because like, you also saw like what I was putting out there. Yeah. How I, how hard I was trying to kind of maneuver everything. And it was eldar saying that like, enough, like, stop begging, stop. You know, you've done, like, you've done nothing wrong here. And if someone doesn't want to, you know, be included in the group, then, then that's fine.

[00:32:51] But like, stop, you know, like, it's like you're begging over here. Come over, come over, come to our, you know, like, enough, you know? So I had to like, it was important for me to know that, like, okay, you know, like, um, like I, I, I need to know that like, I'm not making a mistake here. Like, okay, like, have I been doing something that's like completely out of pocket or like, what's going on here?

[00:33:12] Because I would've. I had a lot more self-doubt. I would've, I would've like ruminated and, and try to find ways like what, how did I mess up? Like what did I do? Try to like figure it all out and, and, you know, instead of just saying like, okay, like I know what I've put out there. You know, I know that I intentionally was not trying to exclude anybody from anything.

[00:33:34] You know, if anything, I was trying the opposite. But I can't control adults. Like they're, there's, we're all adults here, and if certain people are feeling, feeling certain things and also not communicating it to me so that I could do something about it, or, you know, what can I do now? I'm just being accused of something.

[00:33:51] So, I don't know, I just confused 

[00:33:54] Eldar: myself. No, no, no. I think this is a very important testimony that you just did. Mm-hmm. You know why? Because you said I needed the group dynamic in order to convince me or to remind me that I'm doing the right thing. Yeah. To 

[00:34:06] Katherine: remind me, because I would've sat there and I would've thought about like, so many scenarios.

[00:34:11] And today when I was talking to my therapist, yeah. I said, well, you know what, maybe, um, because I was so distracted, you know, with, you know, friends and people and all these things going on that maybe, you know, like I didn't have that moment to pause and think, you know what? I should have a conversation with this person and just say, Hey, you know, I've, I've noticed that your energy is off.

[00:34:30] Like, what's like, you know, what's going on, like, as a friend, you know, because ultimately I do care. You know, like she's a friend. So it, it would've, you know, been like the normal thing to do. Like, hey, like, are you all right? 

[00:34:40] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:40] Katherine: Maybe. I didn't find the right moment, or I didn't feel like we had, you know, it was, it was just a lot.

[00:34:46] But I, I remember like kind of having a moment like that where I started telling her like, oh, maybe it was 'cause, and she's like, stop, I'm gonna stop you right there. We're not going through like this, this thing where you're gonna look for like, uh, you know, ways that you can, how to bash yourself, bash yourself, blame yourself.

[00:35:04] Like, we're not doing that. You know? Um, so it's that, it's that sometimes I need that. 'cause I still have a lot of rumination of like, um, how I, you know, like self-doubt, self pointing the, like, the finger to myself. Yeah. Now I'm not trying to release accountability here, like this, this may have not have happened if I had had like, better communication, you know, had I checked in with this person.

[00:35:27] Right. So, like, I have accountability here too. Like, I know where I've messed up with this relationship. But, um, yeah. I think it's important to know that like, you know, when, when you draw that line, it's for a reason and that's it. Going back and like, you know, thinking about like, 'cause I, I do that, you know?

[00:35:44] Mm-hmm. I think about the situation every single day. 

[00:35:47] Eldar: Yeah. You know, and I think that it's okay to think about it to some degree, but then at the end of the day, you have to be able to find reasons to be able to back yourself. You know what I mean? There is no matter what we say to you and how we can mm-hmm.

[00:35:58] Convince you in that moment. It's only that moment that we can convince you of. Yeah. As soon as that moment is finished, like on that pier when we roll together. Yeah. Mm-hmm. As soon as that moment is done, you go, you go home, you have to lay down. I'm not there even, right? Yeah. I'm laying next to you show, but I'm not in your head.

[00:36:13] Mm-hmm. Right. You'll have to think these things to yourself. Yeah. Which I did. Absolutely. So if you can't back yourself, then what do you got? Yeah. 

[00:36:19] Katherine: No, I, I know in my heart that like I did the best thing that I could do in the moment Yeah. For myself. Yeah. And we backed you. I, you guys backed me, but I, I also was like, okay, yeah.

[00:36:29] Everyone's vacation is on the line. Like we're, as a group affected by this. Like what, what, like what thing? What is to be done? And the thing is, yeah. 

[00:36:35] Eldar: And the thing is, you also were apologizing. I'm so sorry for this. I'm so sorry for that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But that, but we also see, like, you maybe don't understand the magnitude of 

[00:36:44] Katherine: Yeah.

[00:36:44] Eldar: The moment. Mm-hmm. Where this is a very important moment to me. Like if anybody got aggy to you, like, oh, she's fucking doing this again and thinking about this, whatever, whatever. Yeah. I, that upset me because I understand how important that moment is, right? Mm-hmm. I don't care about the day on vacation.

[00:36:57] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[00:36:58] You again, valuing what the vacation and people's perceptions of it. Yes. And how people perceive this. Oh shit, here we go. You know? Yeah. Yeah. But the truth of the matter is, I think this vacation, this moment brought a lot of meaning to a lot of people's lives. It's true. Yeah. You know what I mean?

[00:37:11] Where a lot of people could, oh, 

[00:37:13] Katherine: can I mention one thing? Yeah. Hadas. Was shocked. She's like, why did you apologize? 

[00:37:17] Eldar: See, I said, I'm saying the same thing. She said, 

[00:37:19] Katherine: why? You know, she's like the, you know? Yeah. 

[00:37:22] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:37:23] Katherine: I said, I apologized twice just to keep the peace. 

[00:37:26] Eldar: Oh, you talking about that? Yeah. Yeah. You know, but you also were apologizing twice.

[00:37:27] Like, I'm so sorry. You know, I didn't wanna bring this upon you guys and stuff like that. Like, you have this thing. Well, it was 

[00:37:32] Katherine: really heavy for me. And so, so I remember, I remember like in the conversation, I had noticed that, I think, I think Warren was like, I can't remember what he said exactly, but it felt like, like, you know, we were having a good time and we wanted to go have dinner, but like now that be that kind of, 

[00:37:51] Eldar: and we had fun with it.

[00:37:51] That 

[00:37:51] Katherine: took our night. Mm-hmm. And we did, and eventually we, we, we dissected it for a long time and we had all have fun with it. But I, but I thought like, you know what, like maybe this is not what everybody wants to talk about. 

[00:38:01] Eldar: See, again, you know, that's your perception and that's your wrong perception. Yeah.

[00:38:04] That's 

[00:38:04] Katherine: what I felt from, from, from your value 

[00:38:07] Eldar: proposition. There is incorrect when it comes to like what people actually want and like what, what you're reading. 

[00:38:11] Yeah. And 

[00:38:12] what ought to be. Yeah. And that ought to be is in your head, you are like creating this little image about, oh, I wanna make sure everybody's vacation is all right.

[00:38:18] Yeah. I'm doing this. Like, no, like, I mean, first of all, you in a group of philosophers, let's just say mm-hmm. Who like to digest these things, who like psychology, who like philosophy, understand the reality of things, warrant. It was also on that flow. No. 

[00:38:31] Katherine: Yeah. Plus you like static. I know. You know what I'm saying?

[00:38:33] It's true. And now after, after all this has happened, of course, like he was like, yeah, you know, he was part of the support, all of it. You was like instrumental to like, but maybe I misunderstood. You know that, that moment, this one little small moment. Why? Where I was like, 

[00:38:44] Eldar: because what totally said to you earlier, I'm, you gotta wanna 

[00:38:46] Katherine: ruin his night with this.

[00:38:48] Eldar: I totally had told you earlier. Why is because you had attachments to other things. 

[00:38:52] Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:38:54] Eldar: And when you start removing those attachments and you start seeing things for what they are, you're gonna be able to hold court at any time. 

[00:39:01] Mm-hmm. 

[00:39:02] With anyone because you're gonna be able to back yourself.

[00:39:05] Mm-hmm. If you know that you are a good person actually and you're doing the right thing, you're gonna stand on that. Mm-hmm. You're not gonna double question it. 

[00:39:14] Katherine: Right. You know 

[00:39:14] Eldar: what I mean? You're not gonna say, Hey Mike, did I do the right thing? Hey, totally. Did I do the right thing? Hey guys, guys, guys, guys, guys, I need help.

[00:39:20] Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? No. You can bounce certain ideas off of people. You should share certain things with that. No, I think it's just like that getting confirmations. It's for something that's obvious. It's the 

[00:39:28] Katherine: move had such finality to it. 

[00:39:31] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:39:31] Katherine: It was such a period that it was like, oh shit. No, I I think it was a big move for you.

[00:39:34] It's a, it's big. Mm-hmm. It was a big move 

[00:39:36] Eldar: for you. And I think that it, it was justified for you to, and 

[00:39:38] Katherine: it's not just like a period on the friendship kind of thing or like the dynamic, but it's also like. Period. Like, like it changed their plans, you know, like, uh, for 

[00:39:48] Tommy: what, 

[00:39:49] Katherine: you know, to a certain level.

[00:39:50] Tommy: That's almost like when you break up with, uh, with someone, right? Yeah. Well, that's what it was. Relationship gets toxic. Absolutely. That's what it is. 

[00:39:56] Katherine: I've gone through two breakups in the last, like two and a half months, 

[00:39:59] Tommy: and you start worrying about where they are, what they're doing. Mm-hmm. You know, 

[00:40:02] Toliy: but, but I also think that like, it, it, it's difficult to, to back yourself like, like that, like, um, like to be that person I think for yourself is like very, it like, it, it, the, the apologizing to others.

[00:40:19] In doing all that, I, I, I think that also gets removed more, like less and less as you like, share with those people. And as you get to know those people more what they're about. Yeah. Correct. I agree with you Because like, like, yeah. Like you, like trying to apologize to us and that, or like for example, like that, that night that like Gina Warren like slept, like, you know, a lot of the day and them trying to apologize, like mm-hmm.

[00:40:41] Like, you, you're only doing, doing that. Like if you don't actually know like, what the other people are about. But it's also hard to know mm-hmm. What the other people are about. Like if those, like, if those people don't like, share things with, with each other and, and I think that like the more you like share and the more you open up, um, I think eventually it, like 1, 1, 1 thing.

[00:41:03] For example, like you guys were saying that like you're, you're comfortable with Ldar for, for example, and you act, you know, a different way. Like, um, I think one, one thing that Elder is very consistent with is like, um, like I think a lot of people are drawn to him, like in general because he, um, um, he does a good job of like challenging you into showing you like what's possible and what's okay for, for example.

[00:41:35] Right. And like, I think most people just general in the world, because they're like afraid of the world, they think a lot of things are not okay. Mm-hmm. You know, like, this is not allowed, well, you can't be honest with this person. Like, it's gonna hurt their feelings or like all, all, all, all of those things.

[00:41:52] And I think that like, he challenges us all to, to like, you know, to, to show you what's okay and what's not. Okay. And because he is been doing that, for example, with you for, for, for a long time, I think that you have no problem like sharing and saying those things mm-hmm. 

[00:42:09] Eldar: Because you find solitude and consistency of character.

[00:42:12] You like my consistency of character that, you know, that you could come to me of course, for vulnerable shit that I'm not gonna just kick it Kick it, yeah. Kick it back in your face. 

[00:42:19] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[00:42:20] I'm gonna listen to it, I'm gonna understand it and I'm gonna tell you as best as I could, the truth. 

[00:42:24] Katherine: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:25] Eldar: You know what I mean? 

[00:42:25] Katherine: And I know you're not gonna back me if I'm wrong. Correct. You know? 

[00:42:29] Eldar: Yeah. If you, which 

[00:42:31] Katherine: I think most people, I think what, what most of the world does is like. 

[00:42:36] Eldar: They back you because they just have a relationship with you. 

[00:42:38] Katherine: Exactly. Exactly. You know what I'm saying? I think in a true relationship, a genuine one, you would be told Yeah.

[00:42:45] If you're, you know, if you're, 

[00:42:46] Eldar: when you're stupid or when you're being ridiculous. Yeah. Or when you're being Aggie. 

[00:42:49] Katherine: I really appreciated like the, like the genuine feedback that I was getting from you guys, like as that issue was happening. Mm-hmm. And I know that like I, I knew I was in good hands. I knew that I can trust all of you and nobody was gonna sit there and just like pat me on the back to like say there the, an incorrect thing just to pat my fall.

[00:43:07] Like no, it was, it was very, very like, clear, you know? Yeah. 

[00:43:13] Mike: I, I also think like, uh, like what, what, uh, you guys were saying, what totally was saying, it's, I think in, in the moment when like when this situation started to unravel 

[00:43:25] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[00:43:26] Mike: Uh, for anybody, not just Catherine. Mm-hmm. For a lot of people probably is very hard to dissect what is actually happening at the core.

[00:43:34] Mm-hmm. What actually happened is, right, like the way I just thought about it is a friend that you've known for 20 years 

[00:43:41] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[00:43:42] Mike: Called you out like crazy. Mm-hmm. Disrespects you like crazy over 15 minutes. Yeah. Over a 15 minute thing. Yeah. So that means for we known each other for 20 years and you think that I intentionally forgot to text you and now I'm texting you now 15 minutes later mm-hmm.

[00:43:59] When you're 10 minutes later on purpose to hurt you on purpose. That means you don't know me. 

[00:44:04] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:44:04] Mike: And if you do know me exactly, that means our friendship is not worth 15 minutes. Yeah. That means that our friendship is not worth shit. Right. Like I feel like if I was to ever call you out or I totally was ever to call you out on that kind of level.

[00:44:15] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:44:15] Mike: You would like, you would tell us, are you guys fucking stupid? Like, you all call right there. You all call right there. Yeah. Because it's such a ridiculous thing to say like, yo, we've known each other for so long. Yeah. Mm-hmm. We went through so many experiences we like, we have an ongoing story. We shared so much intimate, like things with each other suffering.

[00:44:32] It went through vulnerable moments. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like and you think I invited you vulnerable to a group trip. We're talking about 15 minutes 

[00:44:38] Katherine: to IC you out on a 

[00:44:39] Mike: fucking, I've just forgot. Yeah. Yeah. And even if you did forget, you apologize who the fuck cares. And, and, but you apologize on top of it. Just 

[00:44:46] Katherine: to add, just to add to that, that was a really good point.

[00:44:48] That was the whole, like, that's why I felt so like rattled. Yeah. I was like, you think I I I invited you on a trip so that I could then exclude you from a trip. Yeah. You know, like, why would anybody do that? Yeah. Yeah. But, but it's, it's funny because one of the most recent, um, one of the most recent time, maybe the last time that I, that I hung out with this person, um, maybe even before this trip, um, we had made plans to meet up at a certain time.

[00:45:13] They got held up at work in a meeting and they were like, I don't know, at least an hour late. Oh, wow. Like I commuted into the city. And I waited around for like an hour. And of course like I'm trying to be understanding like, you know, if you have a meeting, shit happens. Shit happens. Yeah. And it's fine.

[00:45:29] You know? And 

[00:45:30] Eldar: you extended that her, is she, she was 

[00:45:31] Katherine: apologetic and I'm like, Hey, like, 

[00:45:33] Eldar: don't worry about it. 

[00:45:34] Katherine: Who cares? Like, it's fine. It happens. And like, you know, I could have, I could have taken that and I could have, you know, ran with it. Yeah. Yeah. That's a whole hour of my time. I'm sitting there 

[00:45:44] Eldar: Yeah.

[00:45:44] Slipping, waiting for you. Mm-hmm. 

[00:45:45] Katherine: I didn't give any mind, you know? Yeah. Like, it's fine. 

[00:45:47] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:45:48] Katherine: So now you know. You know, to get called out like that for, for, for something like that. And also also my realization of this person not giving a damn. Like, this is like day three of like an 11 day vacation. And, and you want static instead of like talking it out and like, okay, you clearly have a problem.

[00:46:05] Why don't you talk to me? 

[00:46:06] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:46:07] Katherine: But like, now you're just giving me this accusation of like, me trying to almost like exclude you, like 

[00:46:11] Eldar: scolding you. 

[00:46:12] Katherine: It's a, it's a scolding, it's not talking. No, it's not rationalizing. Mm-hmm. It's a scold. So then what happens to me, I am also like, you know, that's not opening a healthy co a route of communication with me, that's also gonna put me on the defensive.

[00:46:25] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:46:25] Katherine: Because like, now, whatever I, whatever I respond to you is, is not going to be, I don't, I don't, I don't feel like there's gonna be like, rationale anymore. Now it's just like TIF for tat, it's TIF for tat, you know? 

[00:46:37] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. Her statement. It's like, uh, she's putting her like the, like you said, she's putting the relationship, she's willing to put the relationship on the line for this one interaction.

[00:46:47] Mm-hmm. Which is not even a huge interaction. Yeah. It's like a 15 minute forgot. Okay, we're fucking 10 minutes away. We're in the same town. Like, both have cars. Come on. Yeah. Like, it's what we're to 

[00:46:57] Katherine: do anyway. Meet Yeah. Meet there. Right. Location. For, 

[00:47:00] Toliy: for, for her. I don't think that, like, she, like in, like in her, in her moments, in her like life, like, I don't think she is, like she, she's, she doesn't know what, what she's doing.

[00:47:11] Like I don't think she's like saying, Hey, I'm willing to put the relationship on the line. 

[00:47:15] Mike: No, I know that, I know that she, she's not thinking about, but, but her a but what she did was she, the way she spoke to Catherine, she normalized a very specific behavior 

[00:47:24] Toliy: pattern. Yes. Well, yeah, that's what I'm saying.

[00:47:26] I think that if, if, if Kat probably goes back and like, you know, I don't know, examines like the previous Yeah. Pre previous things. Yeah. Is that like, this type of stuff has been happening for a long time? Yes, of course. But, um, but like, you, you weren't sen sensitive to that pain of that like, of that like occurring like that, that would still occur, but you didn't even even realize that like mm-hmm.

[00:47:48] This is what's happening. But now if you're sen sensitive to that and you actually see that you, you can't like un unfeel that anymore. Mm-hmm. Like that. Just like, 

[00:47:57] Katherine: and, and also like how are, like, how are you supposed to respond to that? Like, you know, you've got two apologies, which was already dragging it.

[00:48:06] Eldar: You responded the right way 

[00:48:07] Katherine: and then No, I know, but like, like really, like what other ways is there to respond other than, you know, like you've received two apologies and then you're like, no, I don't accept your apologies. Nope. You did this. Yeah. You know, uh, that you believe that like you, that's it. Yeah.

[00:48:22] You in there. Yeah. That's it. That's it. Like, that's a, that's a point. Correct. You know, like mm-hmm. That's a period. Mm-hmm. Like, okay. Clearly it's not about my apology or whatever. Like, she don't believe you now you just think She doesn't believe me. 

[00:48:33] Mike: No. 

[00:48:34] Katherine: So. Mm-hmm. There's no other way to, to go around that.

[00:48:37] Mike: That's right. Yeah. I think those people are, oh, sorry. Go ahead. Do you think it's, she doesn't believe you or she just, uh, she just knows she could say whatever she wants. Like, 

[00:48:47] Eldar: pretty much that, that's a very good point, Mike. That's a very good question, actually. 

[00:48:50] Katherine: Can you say that again? 

[00:48:51] Eldar: Yeah, that's a very good question.

[00:48:52] Mike: Do you think she doesn't believe you? That's why she said that? Or she knows that she could say whatever she wants because of the character or the relationship you guys had for a very long time? 

[00:49:03] Katherine: It's, it's hard to say because like, I don't ever recollect us like having a situation like this, you know?

[00:49:10] Toliy: Yeah. She's saying it because she knows that like, there's gonna be a particular path of like, Kat chasing her now. Yes. That's gonna follow, follow up with that. Mm-hmm. Like, kids only cry because they're gonna get something mm-hmm. In return. Yeah. They're gonna like go cry. Like, do, do people go cry and complain to themselves, like by themselves?

[00:49:29] No. No. They cry and they complain because they know that if they do this, they will get that. Right. That formation works. She knows that. Like, Hey, I'm gonna guilt her. I'm gonna push her and I'm gonna do particular things, and now she's gonna do everything possible to like, suck up back to me. 

[00:49:44] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:49:44] Toliy: And I'm gonna get this particular, um, treatment in return.

[00:49:48] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:49:48] Toliy: But like, like she wouldn't be doing that if she didn't think that like, this is what's happening. 

[00:49:54] Eldar: There if you pay attention to the same, same things that happened with Nate or Dennis and stuff like that. Mm-hmm. Those same statements were made the same way. 

[00:50:00] Mm-hmm. 

[00:50:01] There was accusations about character.

[00:50:03] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. On both sides. Right. Where there were, it was a black and white, it was a specific race for a long time, and then all of a sudden there was a switch where the accusations are made 

[00:50:14] mm-hmm. 

[00:50:15] On the individual's part, even though the individual's fucking guilty as charged by everything. Mm-hmm.

[00:50:20] You know what I mean? And it was clear as day. That's it. This is what you're thinking of us. This is who we are. Alright? Mm-hmm. The door's right here, the door's 

[00:50:29] Katherine: right there, you know, it's like, yeah. If, if, if, if I'm this liar, if I'm this person Yeah. That dragged you out here on vacation, I'll do this on purpose vacation.

[00:50:35] Doing this on purpose, then why are, why are you my friend? Correct. You call me your best friend. 

[00:50:41] Eldar: Correct. 

[00:50:41] Katherine: How in the world? Like, like that only just, you know, shows me some delusion. On the other part. It's, this is correct. This is what you think of your closest friend. 

[00:50:50] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:50:51] Katherine: We have a saying with friends like that, what do you need enemies for?

[00:50:54] Yeah. Mm-hmm. Like, I can't imagine if I was your enemy. Like what? 

[00:50:57] Eldar: Yeah. Like that'ss crazy 

[00:50:58] Katherine: to me. Correct. I was gonna say, I was gonna add, I can't remember. I was gonna add, 

[00:51:02] Eldar: but you see how you're speaking. Like, oh, 

[00:51:04] Katherine: can I, can I add one thing? These two people that you just mentioned, I wanted to ask if you think there is, I don't know if maybe correlation is the right word, but for these three individuals.

[00:51:16] If there, there, I feel like I, this is my opinion, there's a commonality there of like victimhood, like of them in that moment or in that argument kind of placing themselves as, as a victim. Like Right. Her accusations me. Yeah. That was the common theme for those people. You know, it's she victimized herself.

[00:51:33] Yes. For someone who always poses herself very strongly and always wants to come out on top in, in arguments or whatever, she made herself a victim there. And that right there gave me this like, ick of like, oh my gosh, it feels very narcissistic. And I just recently went with someone else like that and I was like, oh my gosh, this person a narcissist.

[00:51:52] Yeah. 'cause it, it, it made me like a narcissist in, in order to get what they want, they will become the victim in that sense. Yeah. They will somehow make it so that you're the bad guy and that they're, you know, sure they can try all they want, 

[00:52:03] Eldar: but the argument is, does it stick? And that's what 

[00:52:04] Katherine: I, I, I felt in that moment, I don't know if I said that when we were discussing it as a group, but like, 

[00:52:08] Toliy: yeah.

[00:52:09] The things that, that's what gave 

[00:52:10] Katherine: me the ick, 

[00:52:10] Toliy: the, the, the things. I think that like, like especially now in like, um, society and I think in ma in, in many relationships, I think, um, playing the victim is rewarded, like, yeah. Like a lot, you know, like, um, like for, for example, our parents will constantly do that thing.

[00:52:28] Oh, like, you know, no, no one loves me. 

[00:52:30] Katherine: I guess you compliance What? Well, 

[00:52:31] Toliy: what, yeah, what, what happens Then most people are like, oh, 

[00:52:34] Katherine: no, no, no, no. You know, like we, it's true, 

[00:52:35] Toliy: right? Like, people know that when they play the victim role, the victim is like, um, like, like peop. People have mercy on the victim. So because of that, like, um, they know that playing the victim results in particular like outcomes, right?

[00:52:54] And like, um, like my dad will al always do this, like, oh, like the whole family's like targeting me and my mom will. And then like, like, like I, I'll always tell him like, yeah, it seems like they're constantly targeting you. You think they hate you, you know? Or like, like he, he, he wants that like reaction of like, of, of like, 

[00:53:15] Katherine: no, no p no.

[00:53:16] He wants the pity. Yeah, he wants pity. He wants the tension and the pity, I think. Yeah. Like 

[00:53:19] Toliy: Vic. Yeah, like the, the, the like, um, being like a victim to me is definitely like a huge, like, ick. 

[00:53:26] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:53:27] Toliy: Massive. And like seeing someone like act in that kind of way that they're like this victim of like misfortune or this victim of like, oppression, right?

[00:53:34] Yeah. Yeah. But these, these people who, who do that, like, they're the most like, like they're extremely arrogant and they're Yes. Extremely. In general, like diff difficult to like, deal with like, they're like problematic individuals that are like, like they're just like heavy, like, like people, like they carry a very like heavy, like down, like it's dragging that energy.

[00:53:56] It's almost 

[00:53:56] Katherine: they, because of the way they are. They, they, the wor the world is responding to the way they are and, but they don't understand why, like, your dad is feeling a certain type of way, for example, like because of the family. Oh, they treat me this way. It likely has to do with the way he is, how he is towards if his family members are the world.

[00:54:16] Yeah. But he's not like understanding like, oh, like how come I feel like, you know, well, no, I think that I'm not supporting. Yeah. 

[00:54:22] Eldar: I think that those people that, uh, I mean pull that card, right? Mm-hmm. And a lot of times they do, uh, is because, um, their techniques or their ways of communicating and the way they're being have not gotten them to a place where they're happy.

[00:54:39] Mm. Right. So they have to pull that card in trying to get you to be a certain type of way. Mm-hmm. Or play it to their tune, twist your arm to twist your arm. Yeah. In order to get what they want out of it. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. The pity party, the arms are may, they may 

[00:54:51] Tommy: not even be 

[00:54:51] Eldar: aware. Oh, a hundred percent or not.

[00:54:54] Yeah. That something that's, I'm saying, oh yeah. That's why I think that if you Right, or if me or if Catherine or the guys Right. Went and played into that, right? Mm-hmm. We're doing a crazy injustice to them. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Crazy 

[00:55:07] Tommy: injustice. Yeah. And 

[00:55:07] Katherine: they're, and, and, but that's what they want. So is it a fear 

[00:55:10] Tommy: cat of, of, of trying to draw the truth out of this crazy like, hijacking mind, hijacking situation?

[00:55:17] Is it a fear of that? Like not being able to, 

[00:55:20] Eldar: I don't think CI don't think Catherine can have fear from this. It's impossible to have fear. It's fear from that's what is true. I, 

[00:55:25] Katherine: I didn't understand Tommy's question. 

[00:55:27] Tommy: What I'm saying is sometimes, uh, like a confrontation feels uncomfortable, but it almost feels like it, like in the mechanics of things, like it has to like occur.

[00:55:36] It's like gravity super necessary. Yeah. But, but how do you speak out about it in a way? Like mm-hmm. You know, I guess it takes some practice or something like being No, it doesn't 

[00:55:45] Toliy: feel, it, it, it, it feels uncomfortable. Only if you're not like, empowered, but once, like we had a group empowerment, like mm-hmm.

[00:55:53] Like at that point, like, you're then on top of the world because like, you, you have no fears anymore. Like the mm-hmm. Like, you can't fuck off. Yeah. I agree that, I was just saying yesterday that I worship at that point, I didn't have a 

[00:56:03] Katherine: fear of losing the, the relationship, um, because of what I saw. I'm like, wait a second, this person doesn't know me at all.

[00:56:10] This is, this is not how like a, a like a person. We should talk to each other. Friends should talk to each other. Yeah. First of all, we shouldn't even be like, you know, speaking to me like that, like I gave you two apologies, which was very unnecessary already. I was dragging it. Um, you know, but to then like, no, you're not sorry.

[00:56:26] This is what you are. It's like, okay, you, this is not a person you can talk to. Reasonably like you, you, you saw the person 

[00:56:33] Toliy: I think is like, like, like what they did was so ugly. Yes. That like mm-hmm. It's like 

[00:56:37] Katherine: the mask came off. Yeah. And I, and I really like saw Yeah. And it, it, and it was just such an ick for me.

[00:56:43] It was, yeah. It was just like, this is, and, and, and to me it's so like, I'm trying to comprehend all of this, like, I'm processing what I'm seeing, processing like myself and like my, my, my place in that situation. But most importantly is like, this is a person that calls me her best friend. 

[00:57:04] Eldar: Oh. I've been called that too.

[00:57:05] Katherine: So it's like, it's, it's like a, it's a, it's a mind effort because I'm like, what? You know, like I'm getting accused of, you know, you know, being a bad friend, maybe you're, you know, maybe excluding like, I, it just, it was just very, it was very crazy to me. But I, I, I think I needed to see what I, I, I had to see what I had to see, uh, in order to, to just know what my position was in that.

[00:57:28] You know, like, okay, this is not really someone that I want to be friends with. This is not making me feel good. Um, all I've done was try my best to accommodate for, you know, two groups that are staying separately, but trying to be together. Like, it was, it was just, 

[00:57:45] Tommy: I get this fear didn't make any sense with my brother that like, there's a great word for this being buffaloed.

[00:57:50] Like you feel like. Someone is like so controlling or so domineering or like they're intimidating that, you know, it's like, I don't know. This morning I felt like I have this whole process where I'm gonna talk to him about the car and he's gonna, I'm, I'm imagining like how this approach is gonna happen.

[00:58:14] Like, I'm like, Tom calculating it, Tom. You 

[00:58:18] Eldar: know what I mean? Uh, totally said that going forward. I'm gonna do the life math for you. 

[00:58:22] Tommy: Yeah, 

[00:58:23] Eldar: yeah. I got you. 

[00:58:24] Tommy: Wait, do you see what I'm saying? Yeah. I, I know, understand what I'm approach 

[00:58:27] Katherine: that, that conversation where I 

[00:58:29] Tommy: have to tell him like, I, you don't have to tell 

[00:58:31] Eldar: him anything.

[00:58:31] I got you. Don't worry about it with one question. You can, you can, you gonna shut, you're gonna change his whole world. You're gonna change him into a better person. Okay. 

[00:58:40] Katherine: Tommy, I can't wait. Wait for whatever this happen. No, you don't 

[00:58:44] Eldar: need to finish it for Tommy. No, I do. Yes I do. No. Yes I do. Tommy, stop your right now all you need to do is right now I don't wanna show, is someone touching me?

[00:58:52] I don't wanna use the word trust to this. I'll explain my reasoning later. Okay, no problem. Can we get get to that later? Just drop it. Just drop it. Uh, no. Why? Tommy doesn't wanna leave without 

[00:59:01] Katherine: that. Like that, that being fine. Packaged up. Fine. Let it out. 

[00:59:05] Toliy: Sometimes you gotta put the bone down. I, I did, 

[00:59:07] Tommy: I did kind get a bone to pick.

[00:59:09] I, I did kind of like, I don't know, like a meditation I've had recently is to just kind of say this feeling that I have this kind of, this like overwhelming, uh, stream of thoughts that kind of deal with some kind of confrontation or some kind of anxiety, right? Like, well, I tell myself, so you're step 

[00:59:29] Eldar: away from this right here world right here.

[00:59:31] Tommy: Huh? You don't do do do it. Right? I tell myself in my meditation, like, it, this is gonna pass. And I just kind of try to like find my stillness and, mm-hmm. Man, it's, it's, it's, I want 

[00:59:42] Toliy: a headbutt him, but, but not physically. Yeah. J metaphorically. Just metaphorically. Just like, you know. Yeah, just like a, like a bloody nose with the head.

[00:59:52] Like one of those Yeah. 

[00:59:55] Eldar: Gotta finish it. You were meditating and then like all the problems went away. Stillness and all that bullshit. Tell 

[01:00:01] Katherine: me, is, uh, these, these meditations that you're having, is it because like you're having a hard time with a, a, like a, a. Possible confrontation with your brother? Yes.

[01:00:11] Tommy: It's, it's a lot of things. It's like, I wanna learn more about me. I wanna, um, kind of maybe tr uncover some truths in, in certain, like, in like my natural way of like being human, like, you know, through, through like having no thoughts at all, like letting go of attachments. Mm-hmm. And I, I, I think that like, the true choices of who I am will emerge from that.

[01:00:36] Like, true creativity will emerge from that. And I'm just curious because I feel like there's just like, you know, a lot of, um, you know, a lot of things sort of tainting my, my, my ability to grow, you know, like my ability to believe in my own potential, you know? So I think that there are things like, like, like you're saying, you want to communicate and you wanna overcome this, this barrier or this challenge.

[01:01:01] And I feel like, um, like I want to grow and I also wanna like, you know, sort of get, get through some of these difficulties that I deal with. And there's a lot, because the pain of the past leaves a lot of like, you know, rubble today. Like, you know, and, and I don't know, I, I just, I'm trying to navigate that, you know, and I'm trying to accept who I am, um, and in the present moment, make the right decisions that are right for.

[01:01:28] That, that honesty with myself, that right. Or that I write for the truth. And um, like the truth is a kind of, it's a kind of tricky thing, you know? And it's, it's a beautiful thing too. I realize that now, um, 

[01:01:43] Eldar: you like overcomplicating shit, 

[01:01:44] Tommy: but like, I'm, I'm just saying I feel sometimes like this kind of stuff that turns me in a way into like the bad guy or turns me against myself.

[01:01:58] Like, it, it's a kind of stress that, that I think like, I don't understand because it's, I don't, I that I think too much about, I get con confused about it and so like, I've gotta say something to sort of stick up for myself. I got you Tom. But I feel like I'm doing something that doesn't, to wanna be aggy going way, we're in the same boat.

[01:02:18] You guys are not having fun. 

[01:02:19] Katherine: Yeah. Tommy, we're in the same place. It's, 

[01:02:21] Tommy: so that's why I, I ask, is it sort of a feeling that like in the moment, that intimidation of the other person is not something mm-hmm. That you can actually like spearhead? 

[01:02:33] Katherine: Yeah. I, I don't, I, because I, I, like, I, I, it's just never something that, like, I, I, I call it practice or, or like was ever good at, you know, it's, I was always shy or quiet or scared.

[01:02:47] So it is so, um, kind of, it's not normal for me. And so it, it, I think it also is linked with, like, I've also have had, because of being shy and scared and quiet, um, I also like struggled, have struggled with communication, with like proper communication, processing my emotions, how to verbalize that, and also how to stay calm when I'm actually in fight or flight.

[01:03:16] I'm mm-hmm. That, like, that makes me anxious. How do I have a rational conversation? Especially when I feel like, like I'm gonna go into it with someone who possibly is not gonna be rational mm-hmm. And is not going to, you know, be able to like, you know, you know, just, you know, have a, just on a level, you know.

[01:03:37] But, 

[01:03:37] Mike: but I think that, um, what you're describing and, and the reason that it happens, I have a metaphor of just thinking about, it's kind of funny one, but the way it is, at least, uh, the way I think about it. 'cause I also, you know, been through this, it's, you decided to go on a hike with your friend, right?

[01:03:55] And you got a long hike, right? And this whole time your friend has been stuffing rocks in your backpack and they're heav as fuck, right? And you've been hiking and now your backpack is like a hundred pounds and you realize, yo, what the fuck you've been putting these, these, these rocks you're making, making my trip worse.

[01:04:12] What those rocks are is the little jab that your friend is throwing at you, or who you think is your friend. Yeah. On a very long journey of your friendship. And you never decided to like or never decided to speak up about it. So now you've, when you realize it, your frustration is through the roof because your memory consciously, subconsciously, recollects like that.

[01:04:34] This person's been putting this shit on me for a very long time. And it's impossible to be logical because from one hand you are upset with yourself with being such an idiot, you know? 

[01:04:44] Eldar: Okay. 

[01:04:45] Mike: And then you are also upset at that person because they like, like taking advantage. Like, yo, we're going on a hike together.

[01:04:51] Why are you doing this to me? What the fuck? It's like a violation. It's violation. They violated you disrespect and you violated yourself. Yes. But because it all happened the way it exploded in that moment, Uhhuh, it's very hard to make sense of it. 'cause who do you like? You obviously wanna blame the other person, but you also, no, you gotta blame yourself.

[01:05:07] You don't see the reality of this has been going on for a long time. You know this person was putting the the shit in your backpack and putting this extra stress and pressure on you, but you never said, Hey, can you stop? You just like, let him put it in. Now you breaking down already. You can't take it anymore.

[01:05:23] You already got the ich. Now 

[01:05:25] Eldar: the question is Mike, um, is it designed in such a way where that you, at that moment already when you already got shitted on so much, you could not be logical? You now it's impossible. Yes. I think it's designed like that too. I think so. Because of the small violations over time.

[01:05:44] Yes. The accumulation and you yourself violated yourself. Actually, it's a violation when the first one was going, like, open your book back. Okay. And you kept going, okay, okay. Okay. You know? Yes. Like, yeah. You can't just be logically say, stop at the end when you did a hundred pounds, you allowed it 'cause you allowed it.

[01:06:00] So you have to say stop to yourself first. Yeah. But you really can't because now you emotionally compromised. Yes. So you're like, wait a second. Whoa, whoa, whoa. And then you, you have this like, yes, this outburst. 

[01:06:11] Katherine: Mm-hmm. That's, that's people pleasing. Yeah. When you put someone else before you Yeah. 

[01:06:15] Eldar: And 

[01:06:15] Katherine: then what builds up resentment.

[01:06:17] Yeah. Mm-hmm. And then you, then you have like maybe an Aggie outburst or something, but because you're so frustrated. Yeah. Um, yep. But you're frustrated because of your own incompetence. 

[01:06:28] Mike: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[01:06:28] Katherine: You know? Mm-hmm. 

[01:06:29] Mike: Yeah. It's both, it's like your own 

[01:06:30] Eldar: incompetence. Then how do you, how are you gonna come? Yeah.

[01:06:33] Then, then you come into a, a, a gunfight with a knife. 

[01:06:36] Tommy: Yeah. But, but what's, what's interesting is you could also be quite good as, as you're saying that you supported Kat in her decision. I don't know anything about this story. Mm-hmm. So I, I, I like the idea that there's, like, you know, that there is some rational thought that comes from Kat that she realizes about her decisions.

[01:06:55] Like she reacted to her own way of, of react, of, of thinking through how to deal with this. You see what I'm saying? Like, so Kat's reflecting on the decisions she made. She is, you know, maybe rethinking it. And we 

[01:07:09] Eldar: just helped Catherine, um, materialize the feelings that she was already having. 

[01:07:14] Katherine: Exactly. Yeah.

[01:07:16] Eldar: We just said to help like, Hey, what are feeling vocalizing it? This is a violation. Yeah. Like, yeah, it, it is. And it was s duh. Wow. This was, and then we put it into words. That's it. Yeah. Wow. 

[01:07:26] Katherine: It was, and it was a stressful situation, like every day. Like, not, not just me, I'm feeling a certain type of way, but the group in general was feeling it, 

[01:07:33] Eldar: but we were not being Aggie at all.

[01:07:34] We were accommodating. No, no, not at all. We needed to see it through, to make sure that Catherine had enough evidence in her back pocket to say like, yo, everybody tried. Actually tried. 

[01:07:43] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:07:44] Eldar: From the jump. Everybody tried. Everybody 

[01:07:46] Mike: invited them. Yeah. Everybody sent messages. Like, Hey, you guys coming for everything?

[01:07:50] Yeah, for everything. You go. You asked. I asked. Yeah. Totally asked the Gina Warren. We all asked like, Hey guys, let's go do this. Let's do this. Yeah. The thing 

[01:07:58] Tommy: on my mind is imposter syndrome. I think it just means like, I could, I could be doing, saying this totally wrong, but the idea is that like, you don't deserve the achievements that you've made.

[01:08:08] Like, have you heard of this imposter syndrome? Mm-hmm. I've heard it. I've heard of the word, but yeah. The word I've heard I've of it. 

[01:08:14] Eldar: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[01:08:14] Tommy: But I don't know what it is. So, so what I'm saying is that, like you didn't say anything yet. Well. When you said anxiety is a, oh, like a grade that you give yourself.

[01:08:25] You remember that? No. It's like you once said on the podcast, I think. Mm-hmm. You said like, when you have anxiety, it's like a grade that you give yourself. Okay. It's like you're giving yourself your bad grade. You have, there has to be a lot of context for me to be able to conclude that. Yeah. Oh yeah.

[01:08:39] Maybe there's more context. There's, that has to be definitely, I do have an idea in mind because that doesn't make sense. It's gonna sound like it's off topic. Yeah. But I remember when, like, I first got a few a's in a, in a single semester and, and I knew clearly like what my relationship was to these measures of, of my performance.

[01:08:57] Right. Like, I knew that, that in one, one course my, my interest was much stronger. While in the other courses I wondered, you know, like, how much do I really deserve these grades? You know what I mean? So it's kind of like, it, it was an awakening for me because it shows that really, like A grade doesn't necessarily define how well, how close you are, how passionate you are, how interested you are in something that, okay, like how much further you want to take.

[01:09:28] But how do 

[01:09:28] Eldar: you want 

[01:09:29] Tommy: to tie that to what we're talking about? It's what I'm talking about is a love that you have for something and a doesn't necessarily. So what I'm trying to say is, yeah, A does not define you offer, it doesn't, 

[01:09:37] Eldar: you can get a D or a C, but I'm just, because you, you might, but if, look at this way.

[01:09:42] Tommy: If you look at it this way, if you feel like you're an Im, if someone felt an imposter, which I, I don't necessarily think I do, I think it was just amazing experience to actually get good grades for the first time. But somebody who maybe, you know, like who's a straight, A student buddy who's unhappy, for example, you know, like looks upon their grades and says like, I'm not enough and like, I don't deserve this stuff.

[01:10:08] Mm-hmm. Is like, it's kind of like, I think I see it in, in a way as what Kat is saying about how she felt after the decision she made, which you give a straight a mm. Right, okay. But Kat sees it as like, you know, I don't deserve it because in a way I was mean, or I was a snake, or I was, I did something hurtful.

[01:10:27] And I, if that was the truth. Oh, no. About it. No, I don't feel like that. She doesn't 

[01:10:30] Eldar: feel the second part, I, part I the opposite. She feels the opposite. I, 

[01:10:33] Katherine: I know, I know for a fact Uhhuh that like, there was no malice. Like I tried, I tried my best. Right, right, right. Maybe my best was not, not she still not another good enough for her.

[01:10:43] That's right. But that's her deal, not mine. But I know I tried my best. I know I had the best interest. 

[01:10:47] Eldar: She a clear conscience. 

[01:10:48] Katherine: I tried, I have a clear conscience of that now. The accusation, like, like I guess this almost accusation, uh, towards me of not being those things. That's hurtful to me. I almost, I, I, I felt like I got slapped, slapped in the face.

[01:11:02] I'm like, wait a second, this is like, you know, like I'm over here trying my best and it's not enough. So. Um, the, the accusation 

[01:11:11] Tommy: of being, of not being what thing? 

[01:11:13] Katherine: Um, being accused basically, or good friend? Uh, yeah, like a friend. Oh, I understand. You know, basically, I, I was trying my best to, to, to make sure that, that this, these two people isn't 

[01:11:23] Eldar: inclusive.

[01:11:23] She, she, she wanted them to be included in everything. Are 

[01:11:26] Katherine: you kidding me? But 

[01:11:27] Eldar: they kept saying that, uh, that they made accusations that she's not, she's not doing that. I invited them to, 

[01:11:30] Katherine: to, to our b and b and our villa. Like, until I got blue in the face. I can't imagine how many times I, I you apologized 

[01:11:37] Tommy: for not sort of quote unquote being a D friend.

[01:11:39] Oh, there was 

[01:11:40] Katherine: a miscommunication there, um, that I think was like the final straw 

[01:11:44] Eldar: uhhuh, 

[01:11:44] Katherine: um, where, you know, I think that some, something very small was really blown outta proportion. 

[01:11:49] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:11:50] Katherine: Very much by the other party. So I was just like, okay, what, what, what is this? Like, this is ridiculous. Now this is becoming very stressful for me.

[01:11:58] They are definitely not accepting our welcoming, don't wanna be a part of anything. Like, we have invited so many times, we barely saw them for the first two days of the trip, let's say. And then the, you know, then this happened like a couple days in at some point it's like, okay, this is ridiculous. Like, whatever I do is not enough for this person.

[01:12:16] And like, that's, well, for me, once, once I started seeing that, I was like, okay, that I'm, I'm done. Like, this is ridiculous, you know? 

[01:12:26] Eldar: Well, we concluded Tom, that they're jealous. Jealous. 

[01:12:31] Toliy: Yeah. Jealous. One thing I wanted to, to like add, I feel like people. Who act in that kind of way, like the breeding ground of this mm-hmm.

[01:12:40] Of, of like, why they act this way to, to, to begin with for, for all three of those people is that they, they like put themselves in a position to have like a lack of being, um, uh, challenged like in their lives. Yeah. Yeah. You know? So because they don't have people in their life that like challenge them 

[01:13:00] Eldar: mm-hmm.

[01:13:00] Toliy: They, they breed this like, particular way of doing things where like, you, you like become this type of person where, where like mm-hmm. You, you, you again need to be like the victim where you need to like Yeah. Move in of way. I feel like it's a sense of like, 

[01:13:15] Katherine: they need to be coddled. That's what, that's what went through my mind.

[01:13:19] Like, how much coddling do you need? Like, I have, I have tried like, what else does this person want? Like what, what, what else 

[01:13:27] Tommy: I was saying do you want from me? I was, I was saying to the guys yesterday kind of about like, I was saying a lot of stuff, but I explained to you e this morning about how um, like something else that touches on, on how I behave is like, I look for like egoic reflections.

[01:13:41] Remember I was telling you Yes. Where I've like, I, rather than listening to the people around me, I'm trying to like see reflections of myself or for people to think I want people to, um, like my aim is for people to think that I'm smart or what was it that I am, um, creative Yeah. Or something. Mm-hmm.

[01:13:59] Something that could be true. I don't know. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So. It was like knowledge or I don't remember what it was. Yeah. It's in this book that I'm reading. 

[01:14:09] Katherine: Yeah. 

[01:14:10] Tommy: Mm-hmm. Let the fuck down. Um, but, but yeah. 

[01:14:12] Mike: You cut off for today. Yeah. 

[01:14:14] Tommy: But rather than like, rather, rather than listening to the people around me, which I could be true to this party.

[01:14:21] Right. Like, um, 

[01:14:23] Eldar: although he, he's tying it with the fact that because you have these egotistical ways of seeing yourself and you want other people to see you or esteem you and shit like that, right? Like, you want them to see your side, you want them to cuddle you to a degree. Right. And pat you in the back like a good job buddy.

[01:14:38] Or you would also 

[01:14:38] Katherine: really spearhead, you know, your position in a conversation. Correct. Like we've seen without 

[01:14:44] Eldar: having the ability to be challenged. I totally said. Right. Exactly. 'cause when he did challenge, for example, that one time he meant resistance. 

[01:14:50] Katherine: I wasn't, didn't crazy resistance. I didn't like, um, I didn't witness it, but I was told that there was a lot of resistance there.

[01:14:55] Yeah. 

[01:14:56] Toliy: Like what? One, one. I think like, like, like, it's like, I mean, it's a very like, like har hard thing may maybe like in the beginning, but like, if you raise your hand that like, you, you're like, I guess like okay with being challenged or like that you, like, you wanna learn about things, you wanna find out like the, uh, the, uh, truth.

[01:15:15] Like if that's an at attitude that like you carry, I think that you'll, you'll, you'll find it very easy to have authentic like relationships. In general, I think with PE pulling it and then it, and then it's like, it's a very normal, normal thing for you to speak your mind or to like address things right away or to like, like, it, it, it's, or like, like relationships without the ability to be honest to me are like, are not like relationships.

[01:15:41] Yeah. What's the point? You know? Exactly. And, um, like if, if you can't be honest with, with, with those people, then like, it definitely makes things like Yeah. It definitely makes things like not as fun. Yeah. You know, for all. 

[01:15:56] Katherine: Yeah. I think it, it, in this, in this case, it was like, uh, you know, honesty and, and lack of communication for sure.

[01:16:03] That, you know, yeah. Definitely got us here. And so Yeah. Like if you don't, if you don't have that in a friendship, then like, 

[01:16:10] Eldar: what do you have? What are you doing? Yeah. Sooner or later that thing. 

[01:16:13] Katherine: Yeah. Sooner or later it's done because like Yeah. What's, especially because those are things that I, I want in a, in my relationships.

[01:16:19] Eldar: Yeah. You know, now that you, like I said, now that you bringing that awareness to yourself, not that you're working on yourself of course. Mm-hmm. It's gonna be a lot more difficult to start to continue the pretending game, babe. 

[01:16:28] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. That, and, and I think like your, your bar has to get like, um, like increased now also as, as to like what words people say to you and then like, your interpretation of like, like what does that actually mean?

[01:16:42] Like for mm-hmm. Like, for example, like someone call calling you like, you're, you're their best friend. 

[01:16:47] Eldar: Mm-hmm. Right. 

[01:16:49] Toliy: I think that like, if you hear those words again, I think you'll be way more cautious as to like, 

[01:16:54] Katherine: I think I have an itch. What, what does that mean? That, like, what does that mean to you? Like, 

[01:16:57] Toliy: am are, am I actually your best friend?

[01:17:00] Mm-hmm. Right. Like I, I, I, I think that like those thoughts like ha have to go in, in, in your head and like, you, you'll like, it's like, like, um, if this person called, like, called you that, and then they were able to like, hurt you in that kind of way. Mm-hmm. I think that like, to, to some degree, like you, you agreed that like you are their best friend and maybe they're like your best friend for, for, for example, you know?

[01:17:24] Mm-hmm. Um, but I think that like your, your evaluation process as to like the, the words and do, like, do, do the words and actions match up with like someone saying that, um, will, will be like way, way higher, like in the future. 

[01:17:38] Tommy: Oh. You know, I was just thinking how possibly as friends in a way, like we find pockets of freedom, but we also, in a way we have a kind of autopilot, like when we, when you called me when I called you this morning and I, and you, I asked you if you were far from, far from work, like, so that you can pick me up.

[01:18:00] Um. Like I, I knew immediately that like, you running a business is kind of like a critical thing, and like, not holding you up became like my in instantly my priority. So in a way it's like I always have that in mind where I'm gonna like, um, you know, where I'm gonna be respectful of your process and what you have to do.

[01:18:21] And like, I mean, like, I think I got ready in like, record time today. I, I even told you I'm, I'm like, I just finished a run. Yeah. I'm like a little bit far from the house, but I'll run, I'll run there. 

[01:18:31] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:18:31] Tommy: So like, I just try to be ready and I think that's something we like, you know, maybe we don't always hold up like our end of the bargain, but I think more, more likely than not that that kind of thing is autopilot where like the expectations of, you know, like keeping to your word is the sort of autopilot thing.

[01:18:50] Eldar: Uh, yeah. But you gotta be careful with the autopilot things that you've, uh, established for yourself without checking whether or not they're true or not. Yeah, I agree. You know, and because, just because like you said, like, hey, like I don't want to be a burden to eldar for picking me up. Um, that might be your assumption.

[01:19:07] You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Where I esteem your company much bigger than me picking you up or being out of the way to pick you up, for example, sometimes. Sure. Maybe I'm busy or sometimes whatever, but because I'm coming from home to stop by your house, which is on the way, it's not a fucking burden. It's a five minute detour, 

[01:19:22] Tommy: uhhuh.

[01:19:22] Eldar: You know what I'm saying? 

[01:19:23] Tommy: Yeah, yeah. But I knew that, like for example, like if I was running, if 

[01:19:26] Eldar: I was running and doing work, then I'd be like, okay, yo, Tom, I can't do it right now, but Right, right, right. I wasn't, 

[01:19:30] Tommy: but if you were waiting for, for like an extra five or 10 minutes like that, yeah, I think that would be like a violation.

[01:19:36] I think that would be sort of like abusing Well, you think that, that, that willingness to 

[01:19:40] Eldar: Yeah. You know, well, no, sure. You don't wanna take advantage, obviously, but like, you know, extra five minutes is not a big deal and I made you extra. Wait, do you, you want me to give you an apology? I owe you an apology.

[01:19:50] Hmm. Uh oh, because I had a detour that I had to go, but they, they fucking gave me a run around there, so 

[01:19:56] Tommy: I, I, I don't know. That's not, I think No, you don't owe me an apology. Okay, cool. No, you don't. You don't. Just in case. But, but I just, in case 

[01:20:03] Toliy: you should just throwing out just in case. Okay. So 

[01:20:06] Tommy: I apologize, but I think I suffer from one thing, which is like, not knowing my own needs, um, not thinking through like what my needs are first.

[01:20:15] I think, um, you know, like, does it, does it help to sometimes have a plan to like how to navigate relationships or something like that? I guess that's, 

[01:20:24] Eldar: I think I, I think it's a good question. I think, I'm not sure if it's a plan or not. I think that the prerequisite, I think we're gonna have to go back to what Mike was saying, is that it's self love.

[01:20:33] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:20:34] Eldar: I think that if you have the ability to fill your cup with self-love and know who you are and kind of sustain that already, maybe on autopilot, like you said, the self-love part, then you have some shit that's a give back finally. 

[01:20:46] Mm-hmm. To 

[01:20:46] others, you know what I mean? Yeah. And I think that's where the really, uh, you can sustain more so relationship that is a healthy one because you're gonna keep giving back.

[01:20:55] You know? I, I, I feel that in my relationship. Mm-hmm. You know, thank God I have certain things on autopilot that do fill me up where I can give certain things back to Catherine. Sometimes she asks for too much and she drains me and I tell her, and I become Maggie and I tell her, leave me alone. You know, and I need to right high play video games, just boundary 

[01:21:11] Katherine: highlight that he does not do this with Penny who ask for a lot as well.

[01:21:16] Eldar: He did yesterday. He was like, can't I can't take this face, but hey, you admitted this is true. Like Penny only he, he never admits it. But Penny has one undeniable argument that, that like, I, I cant jump over. You know what that is? What is it? She just wants to play. She just wants to play. And I deny her that fun sometimes.

[01:21:35] And as much as, as I think I have healthy relationships. Yeah. I think that I owe Penny of that. When she does ask, that's why I give her a little bit more. Maybe she does have me by the balls because I do do feel guilty when I don't, when I don't give her enough attention. This is true, but Catherine has problems.

[01:21:53] Penny has one problem. Thank you. You're welcome. You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. But yeah, like if my cup is not filled, I can't give back. It is not gonna overflow towards Catherine. I'm not gonna be as patient, I'm not gonna be as understanding and you know, I need to feel myself first. So I think that's number one.

[01:22:09] I think self-love is number one. And when you got that part right, if it's established, if you know how to hold yourself down, then I think you might be able to then, uh, extend yourself a little bit more towards a relationship. 

[01:22:21] Tommy: Yeah. I know if you, if you were waiting outside my house for more than five minutes right, you would most likely just go when you wouldn't think about it.

[01:22:27] I mean, you would get, you would be probably annoyed, right? But I think, no, I'll call you Tom. This happened before when you made 

[01:22:33] Eldar: me wait. You probably just called, what 

[01:22:35] Tommy: the fuck are you talking 

[01:22:35] Eldar: about? 

[01:22:35] Tommy: Well, no, I'm saying like, you guys have at times, like, you know, not refused to wait, you know, like you've said it here.

[01:22:41] No, sometimes when you're being 

[01:22:42] Eldar: really like ridiculous sometimes about some stuff, like, it's, it's ridiculous. Like, and you can't be wearing like a bubble jacket in the summertime when it's 90 degrees outside. That's just ridiculous. It's embarrassing to bring you in the car. That's why we, you know, u usually it's like a, it's like a joke thing more than, more than like a, a stance that we're trying to punish you against.

[01:22:59] Like, besides your ours, Tom. So like, you know, okay, but what's, what 

[01:23:03] Tommy: if I was unreliable? You know, what if I said you are unreliable, Tom, and we're fucking to show you love? No. But what if I told you most unreliable here? Yeah. What I told you in the world. What if I told you, pick me up at home, and then when you got there, I was like, Hey, look, I'm actually now at, at the store it's mile, that's a very high poss two miles away.

[01:23:19] That's a very high 

[01:23:19] Eldar: possibility that you did that. And I'll probably just drive down there. Yeah. 

[01:23:23] Tommy: Okay. What if when you got down there I said, Hey, look like, no, I you taking a, I'm actually eating noodles and you dragging it. Yeah. 

[01:23:31] Toliy: Telling me it's raining. Yes. 

[01:23:35] Eldar: Yeah. Then I'm gonna say, are you on mushrooms again?

[01:23:39] So how do we get here? What did we say? Did we say anything? Babe? What'd you learn? Uh, what's your reflections on this confrontation? We started, there was a confrontation. 

[01:23:49] Katherine: Confrontation. 

[01:23:51] Eldar: Right. Being able to back yourself. 

[01:23:52] Katherine: Right, 

[01:23:53] Eldar: right. When confrontation comes easy, that means you do actually back yourself and you have something to stand on.

[01:23:57] Right? Yeah. Because I mean, when I have these things, I, you know, I don't have this feel, feel like I don't rely on like, guilt or anybody else to convince me to do the right thing. I, I just kind of do it and I I stand on it. Yeah. Because I know what's right. I know what's wrong. You know what I mean? Like, 

[01:24:13] Toliy: yeah.

[01:24:13] Yeah. See, when, when, when, when you say that I, I, I also almost feel like it might not even be backing like yourself. Yeah. Because you're, you're, you're backing the truth. Yeah. Right. You know? Yeah, exactly. And the truth is backing me. Yeah. If you back the truth, you can never lose. Mm-hmm. Because like, what, what, like what you're dropping is dead weight.

[01:24:32] Eldar: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And if it's delusion, if they're delusional, it's dead weight. It's dead weight. It's, it's like, yeah. And I think that you can stretch this a little bit further. I think it's. The, it's the utmost respect that you're giving that individual by giving them justice. 

[01:24:47] Katherine: Mm-hmm. And 

[01:24:47] Eldar: if you don't give them, and 

[01:24:48] Katherine: the chance to reflect on their, and it's on their actions and for them to 

[01:24:50] Eldar: reflect.

[01:24:51] And I think that at least in my case, the people that are trying to reflect upon it, they try co come to conclusions where they can start becoming a little more self-accountable. Right. Yeah. Not, not in all cases, but in most cases. That's what I find. 

[01:25:04] Katherine: That's what I've thought. I've thought like, if I can give this chance to person to have some self-awareness, some self-reflection Yeah.

[01:25:11] That, like, that's a good thing. You know, you don't want to turn into enabler, just like, I'm not, I'm not walking away. Yeah. I don't wanna be that, but I'm not also walking away like, oh, this person, you know, this and that. Like, I'm walking away also, like knowing that, like, I had, I had something to do in this.

[01:25:25] Like I played a big part in this, you know? Yeah. In this dynamic, in this role, not speaking up for myself perhaps, or, or, you know, letting it get this far where I'm like giving, giving and wait a second, this person's just like taking shit on me. Like Yeah. You know, like I, this bad person that I was intentionally doing, you know?

[01:25:41] Yeah. Whatever they accused me of. So it's, you know, there's accountability here on both sides. And I have, you know, some work to do on myself Of course. Um, and I, I hope that they, they people have the Yeah. Get to that point where they, you know, they can, you know, have some self-awareness so they can have better relationships going forward as well.

[01:26:01] Yeah. You know, super had unique super decency. 

[01:26:03] Toliy: They would've, they, they should have messaged Gina saying, Hey, I know, like, you know, Kat's not gonna talk to me or like, whatever, but mm-hmm. You know. I fucked up and I'm sorry. 

[01:26:11] Katherine: Yeah. That, that was, well, to me, they have any, actually later, Bruce actually reach out to someone in the group Yeah.

[01:26:16] And not acknowledge and just pretend, you know, just Yes. You could insert your 2 cents about Yeah. Is that to me, only the confirmation 

[01:26:23] Toliy: mm-hmm. 

[01:26:23] Katherine: Confirmed. Yeah. 

[01:26:24] Toliy: That I know that, that I try. That's tracking number package delivered. Yeah. One, one thing to me that also shows is that like, like to do what that person did, I think they had to get to a point where they, like, they, they, like with themselves, they felt like crazy loneliness.

[01:26:41] Eldar: Mm. 

[01:26:41] Toliy: Like they had to get to that point, like where they actually sat with themself and they got like so lonely that like, that this is what they had to do to like mm-hmm. Not feel that way. 

[01:26:53] Katherine: It's sad. Yeah. 

[01:26:54] Toliy: But why not? I don't know. It's like, I guess it's not sad. It's not sad. It's not sad. I know what you guys are saying that Yeah.

[01:26:59] It's, it's deserved, you know, it's earned. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's earned. Yeah. Like, like yeah. If you're an idiot, like you've earned being an idiot. Yeah. And if you're not an idiot, you've earned not being an idiot. Yeah. You know, it, 

[01:27:09] Katherine: it, it, it comes off like very childish, like very immature. 

[01:27:13] Eldar: Yeah. It's lonely, but, but as well, it's because the person never learned that back then.

[01:27:17] Katherine: Yeah. But I'm also, I'm glad that I saw it because like that, you know, that, that says like, I know I did the right thing. They, they 

[01:27:23] Toliy: actually feel that, like they, they like that that's the only way that they reach out on that kind of way. Like they, they actually have to feel that where they're like, like, like, like.

[01:27:32] Damn. Like, like, you know, like they mm-hmm. They have to feel, they just don't 

[01:27:35] Eldar: know which door to come through. 

[01:27:36] Mike: Yes. No. That message is to say they need to make sure that Catherine thinks that they're okay, and that'll, it's the only thing that makes them think that they actually are okay. Mm. It's like a lie, but they're Yeah.

[01:27:46] It's a lie. Yeah. That they need to say, so they can, to themselves, for themselves, but they know they're lying, but they know they're lying. They know they're lying, but they want to never admit or No, but they know they're lying. They really dig deep to find out what's actually happening. Yeah. But, yeah. Well, yeah, 

[01:27:58] Katherine: that's my hope.

[01:27:58] I, I, I wish for that, for, I, I, I, I'd wish for them to Yeah. To look within and, and 

[01:28:06] Eldar: Yeah. I, and go from there. Yeah. I think that anybody who stands behind the truth, you know, and, um, and sees the outcome through, for us at least, right. I, I don't wish anyone bad, you know what I mean? I don't wish those guys bad.

[01:28:21] Like, I wish 'em the best. I hope they figure themselves out and do, do what's right in order to see things for what they are. Even when that the first person came through and said, sorry, bro, like, that was a hard time for me. I, I welcome them. I said, yeah, no problem. Come through, say your piece. You know what I mean?

[01:28:35] You saw it. 

[01:28:36] Mm-hmm. 

[01:28:36] You know, I even invited him for the podcast. Yeah. Also, you know what I mean? So like, it was all good. Yeah. Like, I, I think it's important to give that grace. To those people. Right. But it's, it's gonna take some time. Right. But we don't, I don't have like malice, I don't have like, I hope they get better.

[01:28:51] Yeah. You know what I mean? Like Yeah. I 

[01:28:53] Katherine: don't have, even if it's so recent, like, uh, yeah. Yeah. It's, you see, and I think that, 

[01:28:57] Eldar: that, that also is like almost a confirmation that like mm-hmm. You standing behind. That's right. What's right. I actually 'cause you, you're feeling good about like, hey, like I'm okay with moving on.

[01:29:05] Yeah. And I don't have like this nastiness towards 'em. Mm-hmm. Like, yeah, sure. They wronged me and it was a, a, a nasty moment. Mm-hmm. But I don't wish them bad. Yeah. You know what I mean? Wish them well. Yeah. 

[01:29:15] Katherine: I, I, I rate, I rate that person for even like owning up to it and wanting to show face Yeah. And say, Hey, you know, I apologize.

[01:29:23] I was not in a good place. Massive. Massive. That's props. Uh, massive props. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[01:29:30] Eldar: So, anything else besides self-love? In order to be able to have confrontations, you have to have enough self-love in order to then, you know, uh, always present yourself as true as your true self. It's true. Yeah. 'cause it's inevitable for you to have enough self-love to then do good upon the world.

[01:29:49] Mm-hmm. Right. 

[01:29:50] But, but, but, but, but I think it's like, and if you, oh, sorry, lemme finish up. If you have enough self-love, your full cup is full and now you keep adding to yourself and it has though that love has to spill out onto the world. How can you not give that spilling out to other people around you?

[01:30:05] Right. It's organic and it's natural and it's coming from a good place. 

[01:30:08] Mm-hmm. 

[01:30:09] So then you know that this is what's happening. And if that's what's happening. Is actually true. Right. When shit hits the fan, you standing on the right stuff, you are like, I gave only love. Mm-hmm. So how can I over here feel bad?

[01:30:23] How you trying to make me feel guilty about some shit? You're gonna gimme these accusations like you are gonna say, I know what I gave. Mm-hmm. Get the fuck outta here. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like, and that's it. Buy because of that thing that you showing right there. It's not welcome here. 

[01:30:36] Katherine: It's ugly. Yeah. It's not welcome.

[01:30:38] Like, 

[01:30:38] Eldar: gig is up. What we're trying to do, we're trying to, I mean, self thought is always, it's beauty. It's 

[01:30:43] Katherine: not on your level. I'm surpris that she said that, but it's true. You know, it's not on your level. It's, it's definitely not what I'm, what I'd like in a friendship. Yeah. In any relationship. 

[01:30:53] Eldar: No, 

[01:30:54] Katherine: you know.

[01:30:54] No, no, thanks. 

[01:30:56] Eldar: The time when you start. So finally get to the point where like, you guys are on the different pages here, fundamentally. I mean, that's it. You go your separate ways. Yeah. It doesn't work. You, you pave your own path and I'll pave my own path. Mm-hmm. And if it crossed paths, great. If it doesn't, okay.

[01:31:12] No love lost, no love found. Yeah. That is what it is. 

[01:31:15] Katherine: Well, you know, and I think like the loss of that relationship in the moment, you know, obviously it, it, it stings, there's a lot of emotions that come up and also processing what happened, but like. It is what it is. There's no Yeah. Oh, you know, moping or No, it, it just, you just move on.

[01:31:32] You know? That's good. Especially when you, when you have a realization that like, this perhaps is not even good for me. That's right. You know, like, that's not helping, this is not how I would speak to a friend. This is definitely not how I wanna be spoken to. Spoken to. That's right. It, you know, this is like a definition of my character here.

[01:31:47] Eldar: That's right. 

[01:31:48] Katherine: Bye. 

[01:31:49] Eldar: What are we doing here? You know? 

[01:31:50] Katherine: Mm-hmm. Yeah, 

[01:31:51] Eldar: totally. Sorry. 

[01:31:52] Toliy: No, no. Uh oh. I'm sorry. I didn't know I was gonna say that, that, that, like, um, I think a lot of people in general, um, like we, we, we hold on to many, like, um, relationships and, and like, um, many like, uh, yeah. Yeah. Just like friendships, relationships.

[01:32:12] Right. And I feel like a lot of it is like, like the, the attachment happens from like, like the loneliness, like a feeling. Mm-hmm. You know, that, that like, you don't wanna like break something off, right? Like, you don't want that, like that mm-hmm. That, that like feeling. But I think like those moments when like you, you, you realize that you have like truth and like truth is like, it, it's like a friend that's like there for you forever and you'll never feel like lonely if you align with that.

[01:32:41] And then if you notice that like, um, when you, like, at, on, on, on that moment, like on the, uh, doc, when you align with the truth, you had like. Everyone's support. Mm-hmm. And I, and, and I bet like that, that feeling of that was like the least lonely that you could ever feel. 

[01:32:59] Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. You 

[01:33:00] Toliy: know? Yeah. And, and, and, and it wasn't that like, like the, the, the interesting to me is that like, it's not that like, like that support happened because like, I dunno, let's just say we're all friends with Catherine, that support happened because like, the truth was summoned from everybody mm-hmm.

[01:33:18] At that time. And, and like, that's what you actually had. It wasn't like people, like, I dunno if that makes sense. It does make sense. Mm-hmm. Like, like you didn't summon people that just like back you for, for example. Right. Just to back like, you actually No. You know, just 

[01:33:30] Katherine: backing me, but just because you wanna pattern my fault.

[01:33:32] Yeah. Like, you, you like sum in like 

[01:33:34] Toliy: the, uh, truth. Mm-hmm. Right. Um, and, and ev, ev ev everyone felt that same way and everyone had that truth to like, share, you know? Yeah. Everyone felt what you felt Yeah. For that moment. Yeah. And it's, it's interesting 

[01:33:47] Katherine: because you guys were part of that reality at the moment.

[01:33:50] You guys were all 

[01:33:51] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:33:52] Katherine: Aware of what was going on. Yeah. 

[01:33:54] Toliy: And, and it was funny, um, I I, I think I briefly told you Ka the, uh, the, uh, trip. But like Warren was saying that that cat is the Phoenix mm-hmm. Right now saying, do you remember what the Phoenix's role was in Harry Potter? No, I don't. You don't remember the Phoenix?

[01:34:12] The Phoenix brought the, the Phoenix brings you what you need in your time of need. And in Harry Potter, uh, the Phoenix brought Harry the sort of Gryffindor. That's what he needed to kill the basilisk. 

[01:34:24] Eldar: Mm-hmm. In the chamber 

[01:34:26] Toliy: of Secrets. Yeah. 

[01:34:27] Eldar: Hmm. 

[01:34:28] Toliy: So the, if you remember the movie, like the Phoenix mm-hmm. The, the Phoenix brought over the hat.

[01:34:33] Mm-hmm. Like, you know, that hat and he pulled out the sort of door, so the door, so the Phoenix doesn't 

[01:34:36] Tommy: just rise from the ashes, but it actually brings you something. Yeah. 

[01:34:39] Toliy: And, and the sort of Griffindor mm-hmm. Only is possible to hold to those who deserve it and those who need it in that time. Oh, oh, that's right.

[01:34:48] So you have be, you have to be deserving of deserving, deserving of the good memory, Gryffindor. Oh. And Harry was deserving of it, of it because he showed Heroic Action Act, character, character to do it. So the Phoenix brings you what you, what, what you deserve, you know? 

[01:35:00] Tommy: I think that really is a nice, that's interesting expression of what the truth can be.

[01:35:04] You know, it's like aligning with the truth can really be that calling in a way, you know? Well, yeah. It's, it's also comforting. Hmm. That's everything. And Cat 

[01:35:13] Toliy: took, took out the sort of Gryffindor and Slate, slated 

[01:35:15] Eldar: the bas the Bacal gigs up. 

[01:35:21] Katherine: Yeah. You know, it's funny to talk about it now and be able to laugh about it now, but in the moment it, it was tough.

[01:35:25] It, it was not an easy, I guess, decision, but yeah, I guess I slayed the best. 

[01:35:31] Toliy: Yeah, because, because, because I think like. To, to break that, that that like relationship. Like a, like a part of you has to die. Yeah. You know? 

[01:35:39] Katherine: Yeah. It's, it's very good. It's a very good, like that, that I think is what you, it's a grieving, like in that moment I'm processing what's happening, what this person is telling me, trying to process my feelings.

[01:35:52] Yeah. I am not alone in this, I'm in a group. Right. Yeah. But also, like, I know that my move was final, so like Yeah. It's, it's in all, in that moment I also was like, okay, by like doing this, this is a, this is a goodbye. This is, this is the greed. Yeah. You had to like 

[01:36:10] Toliy: kill a portion of yourself. 

[01:36:12] Katherine: Yeah, 

[01:36:12] Toliy: absolutely.

[01:36:12] And I know that you love my movie references out there. Oh my gosh. Right? 

[01:36:17] Katherine: Which 

[01:36:17] Toliy: one is it? In the Harry Potter series? Lord Voldemort is the biggest sinner, right? 

[01:36:23] Eldar: Uhhuh. Yeah. 

[01:36:24] Toliy: Because he chose to ca, I, I forgot what, what, what the career is called Uhhuh. But he chose to like, to, to live forever. Mm-hmm. By breaking himself off into pieces, into all those like little items that they call like a cruses.

[01:36:36] Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And one of them was like the snake, one of like, hi, his pet snake. Like he put a piece of him into mm-hmm. The, uh, snake. Right. And if you remember the last ho Crooks was. The ego? No. What was Harry? Yes. When he gave him that scar. The scar. Yes. When he gave him that scar, a piece of Voldemort went into him.

[01:36:58] Mm. And then Harry realized to kill him, he has to, he has to kill himself. Yeah. And that was like the crazy, like the crazy, like the crazy 

[01:37:05] Eldar: thing. 

[01:37:05] Toliy: Realization. The realization, you know, that, that like, he has to die. Mm-hmm. In order for this person to, to die, to remove. And he was willing to sacrifice himself.

[01:37:14] Tommy: So I find that interesting because the pre pain can present itself in different ways. So for some it might be a little bit more physical, or for some it might be a little bit more emotional. You see what I'm saying? Like, even though, you know, we're talking about something abstract here, like, I think there's a level of intensity perhaps.

[01:37:35] Like you, like you let go of a relationship, right? Or you, or you break up. These are two sort of different things. Like maybe you're still thinking about that relationship from, from long, long ago, and you can't, you never got over it. Maybe you have to, you have to let go of a part of yourself, you know? Or maybe this is how I heard it put, you can maybe break up with a part of yourself, you know, or you could let go.

[01:38:02] So I think that made me think of like there being different levels. Like, you know, perhaps, perhaps, you know, there's, uh, you know, someone who, someone who has a physical disability, you know, they punish the button. But they may be someone with, you know, a missing limb is, or, you know, an amputee. Um, pre press the button.

[01:38:23] Feel sorry. Feel sorry about it. Come on. Eh, press the button there. Look, look. I'm saying the C call, I'm saying, 

[01:38:32] Toliy: I think press the button there please. I think, I think, what's it called? Him A chance 

[01:38:36] Tommy: please. Just had an 

[01:38:37] Toliy: amputee. 

[01:38:39] Tommy: Diction cat and 

[01:38:40] Toliy: Mike just left. The use of the use of words. 

[01:38:43] Tommy: They left The use of words can be important.

[01:38:46] They left at a convenient time. But 

[01:38:47] Eldar: this, this, I don't know how you say, I don't know why you insult us and say that what we're talking about here is abstract. 

[01:38:54] Tommy: What do you mean? No, no, I'm saying in, in terms of abstraction. I think there right. Are different ways that pain presents itself. Like Yeah, you, I totally saying you have to die, you know, or, well, no, I think that, I think that, what does that mean to some 

[01:39:06] Eldar: people?

[01:39:06] I don't know. Well, no. Well, I think totally, if you ask totally, totally. Can explain exactly what that means. Something abstract about it. It's not, nothing's abstract about it. Here. I think that like maybe to you, the way it fell on your ear is abstract, but to us, I knew exactly what he's referencing. Yeah.

[01:39:18] Tommy: How do we even know what yourself is and like how can you say 

[01:39:22] Eldar: yourself has to die? We just discussed this whole thing throughout this whole podcast, Tom, that Catherine Uhhuh, the way she handled herself, the way she carried herself, right. The personality trait that she displayed, the actions and behaviors that made up her relationship with this person.

[01:39:35] Yeah. Right. Was part of her, who she is when she broke up with this person. Those things have to go where 

[01:39:43] Toliy: they have to die. 

[01:39:45] Eldar: They have to go, they have to go. Uhhuh that that no longer exists. It is gone because that person's no longer there. She's not gonna be able to practice those same behaviors, actions, personality, traits with that person.

[01:39:59] Yeah. They're gone. See, 

[01:40:00] Tommy: I have a problem with that a little bit. Just 

[01:40:02] Eldar: a little bit. 

[01:40:02] Tommy: What, 

[01:40:03] Toliy: what kind of problem can you have with that, 

[01:40:04] Tommy: what you're saying? Yeah. It's, it's that person, you know, but still, I don't know how, how well that sits with me. The, the idea of that person, like I'm saying they're, what I, all I'm suggesting is, well, there wasn't Tom, Tom there.

[01:40:15] A dynamic is there are different ways of being that person and it's only in that moment that you really say that, that you is, that person is such a left, you never came 

[01:40:24] Eldar: and you never came back. Right. There's a very specific dynamic that you have with us if you never came back. Mm-hmm. Right. That specific dynamic, Uhhuh is done.

[01:40:32] Uhhuh, that's part of you that you cannot like go and replicate. Yeah. 'cause you're a very specific way with Mike. All I'm pointing 

[01:40:39] Tommy: out is I find this very interesting. The part of you, you, you disagreed with the whole concept of what totally said. No, I, I disa I think that pain in a way it like whatever pain that it is, you know, whatever the source of that pain, that pain that you have in your body can be like, sort of, I think totally mentioned 

[01:40:55] Eldar: is 

[01:40:55] Tommy: a, it's a good thing they can be, I think they can have a different kind of nature.

[01:40:59] I, I think that like, it, it can help someone make the decision, you know, Harry Potter, I don't know, maybe he has to dunno what Tom is saying. Maybe he has to, maybe Harry Potter has to blast some magic up his asshole. I don't, I don't dunno what Tom is saying, but I don't fucking know. Maybe this example, I don't fucking know 

[01:41:13] Mike: Tommy, the identity of Tom being a smoker.

[01:41:15] Did you break up with that or are you still in a relationship with that person? Oh no, 

[01:41:18] Eldar: he's still alive 

[01:41:18] Tommy: and 

[01:41:19] Eldar: Well 

[01:41:19] Tommy: that's, that's actually a very good, the relationship I have with being a smoker. Are you still a smoker? Oh, I see. Did I, did I let it go? No, that's not really a good one. That is that identity dead?

[01:41:29] I think, I think a long time ago, a drug user make it, make it more radical. A drug user. No, these are not very good questions. What do you mean now? 

[01:41:36] Toliy: Very, these are spot on, not they're, is that identity for you dead or is it alive? 

[01:41:41] Tommy: No, I mean, to talk more recent, something more recent would, would make more sense.

[01:41:45] It's alive, but that's the whole. He's still paying for the, for those sins. Yeah. It is bad. It's bad examples. Tom. Look, first, are you a runner, Tom? It's, it's like, I, I don't know. I think it's reductive to say you have to, you know, you have to kill off or that, or you have to, you know, that part of you has to die.

[01:42:04] I think it's kind. Can you 

[01:42:05] Toliy: choose a different word? Don't use word that. No, I don't want choose a different word. Let go. He needs to get murdered. 

[01:42:09] Tommy: See? No, he's proving my point. See, for him, it still is a bloody murder. It is addiction thing. Like it's part of the words that we use to express something. You can say, well, it makes you feel a certain type of way.

[01:42:18] With Heese, you can pop yourself right in the ass. You know? You and, and that's what you have to do is a word over. He agrees. Yeah. You can pop yourself in the ass. Why do you have to kill yourself? You can just, why not? Why not? Just fucking, you know, nobody's 

[01:42:30] Eldar: dying. Nobody kill themselves. Why not keep banging your head against the wall?

[01:42:32] You know? Yeah. I dunno. Those are your final thoughts. Thank you. Mike. Final thoughts? Yeah. Or do we have anything more to say on the topic? No, no. I'm sure totally has a lot to say. Still to, you wanna get to your problem? The moss? 

[01:42:50] Toliy: The moss? Mm-hmm. I can. 

[01:42:52] Eldar: Alright. Well then tell us a little bit more about the epiphany that you had about your delusion that you were under and how affected you were 

[01:43:01] by it and what are you gonna do about it?

[01:43:11] Oh, wow. No kidding. 

[01:43:13] Toliy: Oh wow. No kidding. No, I'm just trying to think of how, how, how do I even like, uh, cover it. I gotcha. Yeah. Like, 

[01:43:19] Eldar: you know, blanket it or address it up. Yeah, yeah. Or have all the, just because I know that context is, uh, make it more digestible. Yeah. Without giving any context. 

[01:43:27] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:43:27] Eldar: What I gotcha.

[01:43:28] Just 

[01:43:28] Mike: vaguely. 

[01:43:29] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:43:29] Mike: Yeah. Just, yeah. I want to do a thing and like the thing didn't work out and then the thing ended and then that's pretty much it. But I learned a lot. Yeah. About nothing.

[01:43:42] Toliy: Um,

[01:43:47] okay. So, 

[01:43:48] Eldar: um, the, uh, like I'm giving you a chance to throw yourself under the bus, or you want, if you want me to do it, I can do it. I'm sorry. 

[01:43:55] Toliy: No, I can throw myself under the bus. 

[01:43:56] Eldar: Okay. 

[01:43:56] Toliy: Yeah. Like, okay. So, so, so here's what, what happen. Mm-hmm. Obviously, before I went on vacation, every, every morning I make coffee from Marat.

[01:44:06] This is like a ritual we have for, for as long as he's, you know, this person messing at the house. No, no, no. We don't drink it together, but, you know, I make it for him every morning. And that is my dad, by the way. Yes. Who's currently 

[01:44:19] Eldar: helping totally paint some walls. Yes. Hey, yo. 

[01:44:23] Toliy: Yeah. So, um, when, when I went away, you know, uh, he, he, he asked me before he left, he's like, can you teach me how to do it?

[01:44:30] Oh, um, mm-hmm. So I told him how to do it. I told him, you know, you have to empty the thing when it's full. Like you have to clean this. Mm-hmm. Clean that. You have to put it in like this. Yeah. All right. So he was using it and when I got back, like, uh, like he was not doing it properly and he definitely was not doing it like, carefully.

[01:44:47] So like, okay. My like, like, and, and, and like, it had to be, especially like right away ear, early on. 'cause like if you have like, coffee stains for example, on like, like a countertop, like they, they're, they're very difficult to, to clean out if you just leave them. Mm-hmm. You know, if you don't wipe them like within like a day or something.

[01:45:04] Mm-hmm. Or like, also depends on like whi which kind, you know. Okay. Um, so I came back and I spent probably like an hour and a half last night with like, using like a shit ton of like, dish soap and like sponges to try to like clean everything off. 'cause it was like, it was not coming off 

[01:45:22] Eldar: Mm. 

[01:45:23] Toliy: With just like napkins and just like spray.

[01:45:25] Eldar: Okay. 

[01:45:25] Toliy: You know, like, it was like in, in there and it was like, like everything was stained 

[01:45:30] Eldar: Mm. 

[01:45:30] Toliy: Like right in front of like the sink. Mm-hmm. And by the coffee machine. Okay. It was all like, sticky from like sugar. Mm-hmm. And from like, like a bunch of shit. And I was just like, what the hell is this? Mm-hmm. And then like the floor, there was obviously all like, also like, dirty, sticky, like, like, it was just like a mess.

[01:45:46] Oh, okay. You know? So I definitely felt like a type of way, like, about it. Mm-hmm. And then like, I was trying to figure out like, what, what's going on here? Is it like, you know, is there like, like a messy, just messy person that, for example, is not realizing like what, what, what, what they're doing and how they're doing it.

[01:46:03] Because like Yeah, like to, to me, like to do that is like unacceptable, like. Like, right. That's how I felt about it. Then I was just like, oh, is the person, like, for example, viewing me as just not a clean person and saying like, Hey, like let's just pile on more shit. Like, who cares? Mm-hmm. You know, like, this person's already not clean.

[01:46:21] Eldar: Mm-hmm. Or like, 

[01:46:22] Toliy: yeah, like that, that, that was all happening and then like, yeah. When I was cleaning it last night, I was just like, what the hell? 

[01:46:27] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:46:27] Toliy: You know? Um, so like, it, it, it just kept playing in my head as that, like, how did it get to like, this point or like, how, how did this happen where it's like, here I am, like with like a sponge.

[01:46:41] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:46:42] Toliy: Like crazy, like, like, you know, cleaning everything to try to get it out and it wasn't coming out. And then some of it did, and then like, I did like mul, mul multiple rounds and I got mo most of it out. 

[01:46:53] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:46:53] Toliy: You know? Um, so that, that, that's kind of what I was going through. Did, did I leave anything out out there or, well, what was your epiphany?

[01:47:01] Right. Okay. So that you said what happened? Yeah. So, so that, that what happened and then, and, and then Morak came in the morning today. Yeah. The comment. Yeah. Morak came in the morning today and I told him like, Hey, Morat, like, now that I'm back going forward, I'll make the coffees for you. Right. Like you mm-hmm.

[01:47:17] You don't have to make them anymore. Like, I'll, I'll do it. That's it. Like, okay. Because I wanted to make it clear that I don't want him wanted 

[01:47:21] Katherine: to say, don't touch my coffee machine. Yeah. Because, because like, for 

[01:47:24] Toliy: example, like, um, um, yesterday I woke up a little bit late and he made his own coffee, even though I'm already back.

[01:47:35] So then today I wanted to make it clear, like, Hey, I'll make it for you. And, and like I, I, I don't have a problem making it. Like, I never have like a bad attitude towards it. And like, I, I beat him too, too. And as soon as I see him pull in, I already start making it. You know, like, he doesn't even ask me. Like I, I already have like, 'cause I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm always up.

[01:47:51] And I'm always like, about that means you love him before he, he, uh, he, he arrives. Mm-hmm. As soon as I see him pull in, I'm that, and, and like, even if he's not in there yet, I call him and I say like, Hey Marat, should I leave you a cup of coffee? You coming today? Hmm. And he is like, yeah, I'll be there in 10 minutes.

[01:48:04] I'm like, okay. So I make it and I leave it there. 

[01:48:05] Eldar: Mm-hmm. You know, 

[01:48:06] Toliy: in an insulated cup. You know, like we, we, we have a whole like, uh, process routine and, and even the story of how this started to happen is very funny, but I'm not, not even gonna You'll say that one for Patreon users though. Yeah. I'll say that one for, for for Pat, for Patreon.

[01:48:19] 'cause it went from like occasional to like, it being like an expectation. Like they're, they're, they're like, if you don't make, it's like, what the fuck? You know? Um, so, so anyway, he, he arrives, he says this, and then he is like, like he, like, he, he makes like a comment. Like, like, like he kind of says like, oh, why?

[01:48:34] Like, I'm like, well, everything was like dirty and sticky and like, like I'll, I'll make it going forward. 'cause it was like that. Then he makes a comment to me, he's saying, um, it was already a mess before you left. You know? And then I'm like, in my head, I'm like, right away I'm furious. I'm like, it was not this.

[01:48:51] That's infu like that. Like, in my head I'm like. Sure. Like, I definitely have something or something like moss, like some moss, some somewhere. Right. Or like something. But like, it's not, like this wasn't like that. No. What, what I came back to to, to me was crazy. It, it was almost like a person that's just like spilling everything everywhere.

[01:49:09] I, 

[01:49:10] Eldar: I, I, 

[01:49:10] Toliy: I have one picture of it. 

[01:49:12] Eldar: Oh, you do? Yeah. I have 1, 

[01:49:13] Toliy: 1, 1 picture. 

[01:49:14] Katherine: Katrina is always saying how he's such a s sl. 

[01:49:16] Eldar: He is a mess now. Yeah. Shoulder should vote. Should we vote? 

[01:49:20] Toliy: Oh, yeah. And this picture doesn't even do the justice for, for it. This was just like one picture. I have 

[01:49:25] Katherine: to also show me first. Show me.

[01:49:26] Yeah. It was 

[01:49:27] Toliy: like, it was like one, one picture, but it's hard to like see. 

[01:49:29] Katherine: Okay. No, but I have courts. I I know what it's what it is. Yeah. So like, if you don't clean coffee like this, 

[01:49:35] Toliy: this is already after I sprayed and, and like that. But, but you can see that like, like all of these things is all coffee stains.

[01:49:42] Yeah. Here and now it's like, almost like, like rising, you know? We'll blame 

[01:49:45] Katherine: it that at his house he has black granite on his counters. Yeah. And that quartz. Yeah. 

[01:49:49] Toliy: Like, yeah. 

[01:49:51] Katherine: No, 

[01:49:52] Toliy: and this stuff was not coming out with, with like spray. Imagine. Yeah. No, I know. 

[01:49:56] Katherine: It's coffee stains hard. Guys have a good night. All good night.

[01:49:59] Good night care. We're chatting with me. 

[01:50:02] Eldar: Oh my God. 

[01:50:03] Mike: And like this was everywhere. 

[01:50:04] Katherine: Yeah. Love you. Picking up dinner and then, and going straight home. Okay. 

[01:50:07] Eldar: Yeah. So 

[01:50:07] Katherine: we'll have 

[01:50:08] Toliy: Yeah. Like this, like 

[01:50:10] Eldar: this. I like 

[01:50:10] Toliy: put soap everywhere and I was just like letting it marinate. 

[01:50:12] Eldar: Yeah, yeah, yeah. To get it out. But 

[01:50:14] Toliy: none, none of this would spray.

[01:50:15] Like you could rub it, it come out. Yeah. As and, and, and this was just one section. There was a huge stains like this 

[01:50:21] Mike: by the sink 

[01:50:22] Toliy: too. 

[01:50:23] Eldar: Mm. 

[01:50:23] Mike: You know.

[01:50:27] Tommy: Yeah, I see it. Yeah. Is he ashamed to show it to me because he took pictures? 

[01:50:31] Eldar: Yeah. Don't show, don't show it to Tom. Because Tom has an, he's ima he has an imagination. He's a creative, 

[01:50:35] Toliy: yeah. Alright, so, so, so yeah. When, when he made the 

[01:50:39] Eldar: Wait, wait the mic. 

[01:50:41] Toliy: Yeah. When, when, when, when he made that comment to me, at first I was like, what the fuck?

[01:50:46] Like, like I, it was like mm-hmm. It's like, sure. Like I'm messy on some things. Mm-hmm. For sure. Right? Mm-hmm. But like, not like to, like, he's basically saying that like, Hey, like you already had this, and like, this is just like a, like a little bit worse. Like, what are you talking about? And in my head I'm like, it's nowhere near this.

[01:51:04] Like, I, I like, like, I mean, you guys don't see coffee stains everywhere. Come on. Like, no, I, I I don't do that. 

[01:51:09] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:51:09] Toliy: And I know that even if I do leave it, when I see the next day, I'm like, oh shit, I gotta wipe it out a asap because this will stay if you leave it Right. It's, it stains like 2, 2, 2 things.

[01:51:19] Staying crazy eggs and coffee stains. 

[01:51:22] Eldar: Hmm. 

[01:51:23] Toliy: And if you ever got eggshells or pieces of egg on your thing mm-hmm. You know, that shit is fucking hard, harder to clean. Okay. Right. Um, is this 

[01:51:30] Eldar: true? No. There's certain things that definitely say like tea. 

[01:51:34] Tommy: Yeah. 

[01:51:34] Eldar: Yeah. On the, on the, on the, on the quats. Yeah. Oh, 

[01:51:37] Tommy: on 

[01:51:38] Eldar: you.

[01:51:38] There's ways to do it. You go, gotta use baking soda and stuff to do it, but I'll show you. Yeah. 

[01:51:41] Toliy: So, so yeah. When, when he made that comment, like, that's how I felt and afterwards I reflected on it and I'm like. What's going on here? Um, like then I started to feel like, am I really this guy that he is de depicting here?

[01:51:54] Like, yeah. And then I, and then like everything started to go through my head and like, I started to feel terrible. Like, um, like, like internally I was like, you know, like, like if he has this picture of me, like, am I really this guy? And then I started to think about particular things and then like, overall it was like, yeah, I am this guy.

[01:52:18] Mm-hmm. You know, I am this guy. Like I, I, I am like a messy person and I am someone that like, I like that the weeds 

[01:52:28] Eldar: overgrow. 

[01:52:28] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. Like, I am that guy. Mm-hmm. Like, he, he's shooting in the right ballpark for, for for sure. You know? And then once I realized that everything like, came down like a ton of bricks and I felt terrible.

[01:52:40] Like, I, I was just, it's like, I can't believe that like, like, like I'm at the place where like, I'm that guy, you know? And, um, yeah, I definitely felt terrible. Mm. You know, I felt terrible. It's an 

[01:52:54] Eldar: interesting reflection. 

[01:52:55] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I felt like, I, I, I can't even de describe how, how bad I felt. You know? 

[01:53:03] Eldar: It, you felt that bad because your perception of things were on one spectrum and this was the reality was completely 

[01:53:09] Toliy: opposite.

[01:53:09] Well, yeah, because here I am, like, I'm upset that like, this person made an like, like, like. He, he asked me if he highlighted your mess. Yeah. He asked me if he can use the coffee machine. I said, no problem. I loaded up with coffee. Yeah. I had milk. Like I make sure that Yeah. He had enough for like, he even asked me like, is this gonna be enough for while you're gone?

[01:53:27] Oh my God. I'm like, yes, this will be enough. You know? Yeah. When I got fresh coffee in the morning today. Oh, wow. Sick. All right. After the gym. Yeah. You know, like, like I, I, I made sure to do that. I made sure to show him what, what to do. I'm like, yo, you, like, as soon as you see this light, you have to empty, otherwise it's gonna overflow.

[01:53:42] Mm-hmm. Like, you know, like, yeah. I showed all this. Yeah. And like, he understood everything. Yeah. You know, and then I come back to this and I'm just like, and, and, and like in, in general, like, Marat is definitely like, messy with things, you know? Yeah. Like, just, just just the way he goes Yeah. Is about things like, you know, um, like yeah.

[01:54:00] Right, right. But like, this to me was like crazy. Like, you, you, like, you let someone, like use your machine, show them everything. Like they're using it for themselves, obviously. And then they, they leave this crazy like, mess of like sugar stains everywhere and like mm-hmm. Coffee stains every, everywhere.

[01:54:15] Like, it like, it, it, it to me was very strange. I was like, what? Mm. Yeah. You know? And it literally took me an hour and a half to scrub everything out with a sponge. I, I, I didn't get anything. Get everything out. There's still some stuff I gotta try. I ordered some, um, some, some like product. Mm-hmm. For it. Um.

[01:54:34] So, but, but, but like, regardless of that, like he, he's definitely shooting in the rut, in, in the right ballpark as mm-hmm. So like how I treat particular things, how I maintain particular things. 

[01:54:44] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:54:44] Toliy: And, and, and, and just a pain of a feeling that like, that's like an actual reality, right, right now, like, um, because it has his hand in like, so, so many different parts of my, my like life, you know?

[01:54:59] Um, it was very painful. Hmm. 

[01:55:01] Tommy: What's the difference? I'm wondering with the thing visible on the countertop and maybe in the periphery, like, let's say I've pointed out things on your shelf sometimes where you like leave things. Is it because they have a place there? You know, like, maybe it doesn't look me like a mess to you.

[01:55:19] Toliy: Well, no, like to, to to, to me, like there's certain things that I don't even like a, like a notice, like a notice. But when I realized what I did today, I started to notice ev everything and started to see everything. And like that pain of that reality sunk in, uh, sunk in. Yeah. And I like, and I, I was in disbelief that like, this is the actual like, like, like, uh, like a truth, um, uh, 

[01:55:46] Tommy: yeah, truth of things.

[01:55:47] I, I, I see that. Like I, I could see how one thing leading you to notice everything. Is that what you're saying? 

[01:55:54] Toliy: Well, the, well, it, it's, it, it's not that that, that one thing led me to like, to like a notice. Everything. Just, just the realization that like, yeah, you're, you're that like. Messy and disorganized, like, like person, and you kind of breed this kind of like mm-hmm.

[01:56:08] Like, because like I grew up in like a very messy household. Right. And like, even how I live now is like, not even comparable to like, what, what they have. Like my, my, my, my house is spotless in comparison to like theirs, you know? Mm-hmm. So like, it, it, it's way better, but it's still not like how I'd like to be or who, who I'd like be esteem to be.

[01:56:29] Be. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and just the realization that like, here I am, like upset that like, this person is like doing this kind of thing, and then they're saying like, what are you talking about? Like, your shit was messy beforehand, right? Mm-hmm. And then I'm like, my first reaction is to say, no, it wasn't, but the reality was like, to a certain extent it was, you know, it was, yeah.

[01:56:49] Um, it may have not been this bad. Yeah. But it was, it, it wasn't like a spotless room that someone just came in and like took a shit on the floor. Mm-hmm. Like, like, like, this is not what happened. Right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know? And then I started to think like, oh, like, what do you do? Like, operate in that kind of way to like el a or like, what?

[01:57:05] Like, like, you know, like that, that, that, that, that started to go through my mind, like in the beginning stages of it. Mm-hmm. You know, of like, trying to figure out why it happened, you know, like Yeah. Like why, why, why it happened. 

[01:57:16] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:57:17] Toliy: Um, but, but ultimately it was a good thing because, um, I felt how I felt and I just like, like, um.

[01:57:25] Like I even teared up a little bit, like in the car. Really? Like, yeah. When, when, wow. When, when, when I called you afterwards, I was like, like, I can't believe it. Like, I can't believe that. Like, mm. Like, um, yeah. Yeah. Like, this is where we're at, 

[01:57:38] Eldar: you know? But it's, it's, in the hindsight, it sounds like it was super necessary for you to kind of take that leap to the next, next step of what?

[01:57:45] Of, you know, holding yourself accountable to wanting to be more clean and be like more organized and finally tackle these things so you can maintain them in the proper way. Like, well, you right away, like kind, like, Hey, let's get this done. Let's get that done. I'm like, yeah, of course. Like, like we, and I told you my reflection on it too, where it's like me and Mike, when we come over, I told us to Mike.

[01:58:04] Mm-hmm. I said, when we come over and we want to do stuff and stuff Right. For like, it will do things, but then we see that they, they get neglected, right? Mm-hmm. There's gonna be more garbage over here in that corner. That corner. This like this. Mm-hmm. I mean the basement, we have fucking examples and pictures and videos of the shit, you know, before we actually tackled it with cousin.

[01:58:20] Mm-hmm. Right? Like, it's clearly shows that like, oh, okay, like negligence is there. So like why should we care? Like, it's almost like our efforts come, like are in vain then. Yeah. You know what I mean? So, and I was like, sure, maybe my dad is messy and stuff like that. But I'm gonna tell you that you are like, this is the perception that you've given off.

[01:58:38] And we are going off of that. So like. I'm operating differently in your house than I would be operating in my house. 

[01:58:45] Mm-hmm. 

[01:58:46] Because of the way you're mm-hmm. You are carrying yourself. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, my efforts are not being appreciated or whatever, you know what I mean? I'd love to help you if you say, Hey, let's do this.

[01:58:55] I'll keep this, you know, and I also continue to do it. Right. But if you're not, then I'm like, but you don't give a fuck anyway. Mm-hmm. So I'm not gonna give a fuck. 

[01:59:02] Tommy: Yeah. I found it interesting that you, and I think it come after one 

[01:59:05] Eldar: thing, it came 

[01:59:06] Tommy: after conditioning. Yeah, of course. He's conditioned. I, I found it interesting that Toy's Dad goes to cleaning, like, like right away, sort of like he, while we were watching.

[01:59:14] Mm-hmm. Like he was in the kitchen, he was cleaning everything. 

[01:59:17] Eldar: Yeah. Do you think that, do you think, 

[01:59:19] Tommy: based on what you said, your family being more messy, do you think your dad is sort of like acting out his, like his own version of this? Like where he is like cleaning because he wants to like, be, be better.

[01:59:31] You see what I'm saying? It's possible. 

[01:59:32] Eldar: Yeah. I don't know. But he has a role there too. Like, totally. You know, it's, 

[01:59:35] Tommy: yeah. Like acknowledging his own messiness. Like, it's possible. I can't believe things get this way, you know? Maybe it's possible. 

[01:59:41] Mike: It's, that's kind of interesting. What, what, what caused that feeling of feeling really terrible?

[01:59:44] Like, what do you think it was? Like, what specifically? 

[01:59:47] Toliy: Um, be, be, because I felt like, um, like all, like, like that, that, that behavior carries like this particular like, um. Like when, when you're in like, um, like a, like a depressive or like anxious or like tired, like states, like you, you, you don't care about, like, for example, like cleanliness or like organization or like, like you actually prefer when like shit's fucked up, you know?

[02:00:14] And then you just kind of like bask in that fucked upness. Like in 

[02:00:18] Tommy: Yeah. 

[02:00:19] Toliy: In general. I like that. That you're basking the fuck. Definitely. So, like, like now, like now like, like I overall feel completely different yet, like, I'm still like displaying this, this kind of behavior and like participating in doing this and like, the feeling of like, that, like holding me back from having again, like a, like, like, um, like, um, like a clear space for a clear mind and like clear actions.

[02:00:45] Mm. Like the, the, the weight of all that, like crashed down and like, like I felt how much it had his hand and like, just like in general, just like how, how I do things, how I go about things and like, like, yeah. JJJ just like in general how things are mm-hmm. And the lack of action and like a bunch of them.

[02:01:04] Mm-hmm. And like, and, and like I, I've, I felt the weight of all that in like one, like, like like moment. 

[02:01:10] Eldar: Mm. 

[02:01:11] Toliy: You know, and like, um, like that, that kind of real reality was a very like, um, pain painful one to accept that like, so is it like a ego blow, 

[02:01:22] Mike: like a humility thing? Like what? Um. Probably everything.

[02:01:25] Yeah. But 

[02:01:26] Toliy: yeah, yeah, yeah. Probably everything. Like an ego blow that that, that like, fat is a fascinating human thing. Like, like, like, this is what you've like fostered and this is what you've done and you haven't addressed this. Like, it was like, and this is who you are. Like it's, it's accepting the 

[02:01:41] Eldar: reality, like the reality, oh shit, this is me.

[02:01:44] And obviously, you know, he lives in where, in the ideal world, right. A lot of times, this is where we live in, we're like, we are this ideal person, right? Like, we want to be better or whatever. But then like, the reality of things mm-hmm. Is the reality of things. Yeah, 

[02:01:55] Mike: of course. 

[02:01:56] Eldar: So it's, it's a hard, it's a hard pill to swallow.

[02:01:58] Mm-hmm. But I think it's a necessary one for growth. You know what I mean? Like, like, I, like even like the fire that he had and like the way he reflected on, I'm like, of course I'm gonna come help. Like, I'm excited to help you, you know, I want to help you. I want to. Mm-hmm. And, and, and crazy. Finish the bag, build the shit like, like build your furniture that you fucking bought that's in the garage.

[02:02:14] Like, let's kick shit off. You know what I mean? Like, and people coming over. So it's like, it's exciting to share that with others, you know what I mean, too? Like everything's good. Yeah. You know, but like. You have to want that. Like, you have to be the driving force. Yes, yes, yes. Come over there and say like, I'm gonna fucking clean the shit for you.

[02:02:29] Like, I'm not gonna do that. Like, yeah. I, I actually, I, I did it for many 

[02:02:31] Tommy: times. You know, it just pisses me off now, for, for me, like, or order organization or like clean, uh, making my bed or, or doing the dishes these days, it really is that kind of feeling of like, let, let me just kick this off. Like, that's, that's how I, that's how I see it, where I'm like, I can tackle this right now.

[02:02:48] And, you know, sometimes it comes a little bit later, so there's no perfect order. But sometimes it's more consistent. It's just, either way, it's, that's how I look at it through practice. Like, I just keep making my bed. I just keep doing dishes. I see that as like, my respect for myself or in a way, like my giving my hand to other people in the house, being like, you know, mindful, like, okay.

[02:03:10] You know, doing things that actually being part of a team. Yeah. Clears things out. If it's my cooking, yeah. I want to, I want to take care of it, you know. How many roommates do you have? I have a couple baboons roommates. And, and I never get this fucking, uh, 

[02:03:25] Toliy: what's called notification. I'm in the car and I get a fucking notification that tomorrow morning, 9:00 AM is construction, trash and harthorne.

[02:03:33] Mm. Like a construction dumpster. Mm. Like, what the fuck? You know, I never even seen this fucking notification from, from, from like my, my app every timing. So then I called elder right away. I'm like, yo, we gotta dump all this. Yeah. Good shit. Tomorrow in the morning? 

[02:03:45] Tommy: Tomorrow morning. Tomorrow morning. Yeah.

[02:03:46] You guys need help. Oh, I like it. Of course, Tom. Well, Tom, not need help, but would you like me to come and help? Of course. We would love it, Tom. Okay. Why not Tom? All right, so tomorrow, tomorrow morning with that, my final thoughts is I'm not, I don't have any Thank you. I'll be giving up my final thoughts.

[02:04:06] Eldar: Yeah, I mean, it's a, it is an interesting phenomenon, right, Mike? Yeah. The buildup, everything. 

[02:04:14] Mike: Yeah. It's interesting because we've been saying this for a very long time. Yeah. But she's finally said it to himself. He finally said it himself. Yeah. And I think, 

[02:04:22] Eldar: you know, that's key. That's good. That's key. 

[02:04:26] Mike: Yeah, it is.

[02:04:26] Definitely. But I think it, it is always like a humbling, and it is humbling how painful when you 

[02:04:32] Eldar: face it at 

[02:04:33] Mike: first, when you see the reality and you, when you were under the wrong impression. Yeah. For a long, long time. It could be a, like a, you, you don't want to get out it as fast as possible, you know? Yeah, it's true.

[02:04:44] You do. You wanna clean it up right away. You, you wanna cut 

[02:04:45] Eldar: ties. Like, yo, I don't want this guy, I don't want this guy give you outta here. It's true. Yeah. Which is, which is a, it's a good fire for sure. Yeah. It's a good fire. Yeah. The, the key is to be able to sustain it and, you know, and let it become a servant to you.

[02:04:56] Like I said, I said to him, look, yeah, you know, you have a, you have a good space and like, you have so much potential and like, you can really thrive. You know what I mean? And like, that's what you should strive for. Mm-hmm. And then upkeep that because you, it's your space. Like, you feel you're gonna feel good in it, you know?

[02:05:08] Yes, yes, yes, yes. You can bring beauty to your life mm-hmm. Versus like, trash everywhere, you know? Right, right. 

[02:05:14] Tommy: That's how I, that's how I look at my room. I, I really do, I look at it, it makes my life so much more livable to have like a desk where, you know, like, my room's like done, it's clean. Um, you know, like, I don't know.

[02:05:27] I have thing, everything has its place. I have a, a bookshelf that's organized space on my desk to work. Um, Tom, I'm gonna, 

[02:05:34] Eldar: we're gonna, we're gonna save the topic for OCD for next time. 

[02:05:37] Tommy: It's not OCD. Okay. No, no, it's not. But I'll, I'll say because we're 

[02:05:40] Eldar: not trying to preach OCD here, we want a healthy balance between, 

[02:05:44] Tommy: I'll, I'll say it, I'll say hoarding quite simply Ooc D like, you know, some people I look, first of all, I don't have anything against totally saying I'm messy and, and not like, for, for me.

[02:05:55] Yeah. So, so that for me it's like, okay, like, uh, what are you saying? You know, I, if you admit to being messy, I think that's, that shows. Like the honesty shows some, some, some something. It's sort of noble in a way, I think. I know it's strange to say, but you know, to say, Hey, I'm a messy person. Good. Like, that's what you're expressing about yourself.

[02:06:17] And I think that's one, that's a great thing. So that, that's, that's what immediately came to mind. To express yourself as someone who's messy. Maybe re it in. What about mossy? But whatever 

[02:06:28] Eldar: you know about mossy. 

[02:06:29] Tommy: What mo what if you're mossy? What about mossy? Uh, messy 

[02:06:32] Eldar: is one thing, but if you let the moss grow, 

[02:06:34] Tommy: I'd say put it in a pot, like put it in some soil and then water it and let it grow.

[02:06:38] I like it. Mike, 

[02:06:39] Eldar: what are your final thoughts? 

[02:06:42] Mike: Um, I'm looking forward to going over Tony's house and seeing the changes. Nice. And I'm definitely glad to help as well, you know? Awesome. I always like to come together and, yeah. For a good cause. Definitely. 

[02:06:54] Tommy: Would you like to, to bring a, like a quality assurance checklist with us?

[02:06:58] Like Yes. So we can, we can do a little health spot, you know, for sure. We'll, 

[02:07:04] Toliy: totally. Um, well, one, one, like, um. One, one part of this like, uh, realization I think is important to like, to, to look at is that like, like it's a, like, it's a, um, delusion that I was Liv living out, you know? Yeah. Of like, what's going on versus like, what, what I think is going on.

[02:07:26] Yeah, yeah. Uhhuh Yeah. Like that. Right. You know, um, 

[02:07:30] Tommy: it's a thing you tinker with. Right. Eldar. Sorry. Okay. And, um, you gave a final dollar thumb. Sorry. I, I, I just, I, I wanna mention that, that had in mind you. I'll give back to you. I'll give 

[02:07:40] Toliy: back to, I'll do another round. I'll do another round. Yeah. And, and, and, and I just feel that like, like obviously you wanna live a life where you don't have like any delusions, which, which is obviously hard because we're, we're, we're like, to a certain extent all live, live, living out, like, you know, some more than others.

[02:08:00] Of course. Yeah. Hi Tom. What's it called? Delusions. But like, um, I mean, the, the best thing is definitely realizing the, uh, the, uh, delusion EE even though it's painful in the moment, right? But, um, the worst thing is, is, is obviously like living it out and not knowing it, you know, and not, not like being able to, it is to identify it.

[02:08:26] That, that's why I think that like, it's like a momentary, but like a very painful like, um, experience because it's like a, it's like an act that's like. Showing its face, you know, 

[02:08:42] Eldar: you know? Yes, I agree with you. Totally. But my final thoughts are gonna be that, um, you know, despite the fact that you may be highlighting how painful it is in that moment to realize it and finally let go of it, or trying to make changes and stuff like that.

[02:08:55] Right. I think that, uh, what needs to be actually highlighted that when you finally take accountability to something that's been growing o overgrowing in your life for a very long time and not serving you, when you finally take the accountability and see it, see the devil, or see the ego, you see the pride, arrogance, whatever for what it is, and you address it head on you, you have this spark of, you know, like natural energy that gives you the fucking, it propels you to want to do shit, right?

[02:09:25] Yeah. Naturally and organically. And I think that's what we always talk about. We talk about fuck discipline, find passion, find love. Right? And when you find these little moments of truth of what's actually going on, there's unlimited amount of energy where you can propel and do shit and get shit done.

[02:09:43] Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? And I think that's crazy. Good and cool to stand behind. Like even like when he was talking about it, I was like, finally, you know what I mean? Like, I've been waiting for that. I told you about it now you like, yo, you like, I want to get behind this cause. And I think that when you share those, those kinds of moments of actual growth mm-hmm.

[02:10:00] People can get behind it. Why? You understand people wanna be part of it. 

[02:10:04] Toliy: When when, when I felt that, like I just wanted to throw everything away. Yeah. Like everything you see, like, I just want everyone, someone come in. Yeah. Even the things I still want Throw that away too. Yeah. 

[02:10:13] Eldar: Like, I, like you wanna just be clean stroll.

[02:10:14] Yeah. Yeah. You see? And, and that was felt, he was able to transfer that to me and like, I'm like, yeah, of course I'm gonna come and help you out. Like, I want to be part of that because like, there's something to be part of. So what I'm saying is that there's, there's ver there's a lot of good here. You know what I mean?

[02:10:27] Yes. It's a lot of organic energy that's like limitless. Mm-hmm. And if you can find these things in, in your life where you can finally uncover mm-hmm. The ugly and bring it to the beautiful and make it beautiful, I think that you can live a very happy life. Mm-hmm. 

[02:10:43] Toliy: Yeah. But, but e even though it was ugly and aim full, right?

[02:10:47] Like, I, like, I, I like, like I know that all also like, like ob obviously like all my goals and aspirations and everything I want to do is to be able to face and have these kinds of moments Yeah. To, yeah. To I to obviously have the stamina. To feel the pain. See the pain, and then actually do something about Correct.

[02:11:08] Like, like, like the thing. Correct. So like, like if, if it felt good that like, I didn't feel like when it happened, I definitely didn't feel like defeated and like bad. Like I felt like, yo, you gotta get rid of all the shit. Like Yeah. You gotta get stuff done. Everything got 

[02:11:20] Eldar: Yeah. Has to go. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

[02:11:22] You, you put the, you put the battery in your back and you were able to transfer some energy to me and to Mike and to even Tom where Tom's like. I wanna be part of it. Like, yeah. 

[02:11:30] Toliy: Like I, I didn't feel like, like a, like a, she most likely won't be, by the way, depressed afterwards. You know? Like, I, like, I felt like, like, yo, you gotta do something about this for right now.

[02:11:38] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. A asap 

[02:11:39] Toliy: and 

[02:11:39] Eldar: that's cool. You know? That's great. 

[02:11:41] Toliy: And I, and, and, and I called the town. She said it's, you know, 75 bucks for the first truckload and then fi 50 for the next. 

[02:11:48] Eldar: Yeah. Like that's, I relevant shit, which, you know, versus paying a dumpster or something, you know? Yeah, yeah. We could do a truckload.

[02:11:54] We can fucking, yeah. 

[02:11:54] Toliy: Yeah. She said I gotta bring like a, like a document showing that I like, like my address, you know, and like a You don't have 

[02:11:59] Eldar: an id? 

[02:12:00] Toliy: Well, no, I don't have it on my, uh, license. 

[02:12:02] Eldar: I'll make sure to bring that. Yeah. Alright, cool. All right. So yeah, that's my final thoughts that like, despite the fact that like, yeah, it's tough, it's all this, it's painful.

[02:12:11] Um, don't miss the fact that there is a lot of energy, uh, in these realizations and that, like, you can kickstart a lot of good stuff and, and if you could keep fueling that, you know, by keep reflecting and stuff like that, you can find, uh, passion and sustained love and towards yourself by keep showing yourself self love, Tom.

[02:12:30] Mm-hmm. Uh, as, as promised, and I like to keep my promises. Oh, 

[02:12:33] Toliy: 1 1, 1 1, 1 thing I wanted to add is that like when I, when when I told your dad this, like, hey, like, going forward, like, I'll, I'll, I'll make the coffee, so I'll go back to doing it. 

[02:12:41] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:12:42] Toliy: You know, like, like we had that moment and then like 10 minutes later he came back and he, and then he, he, he like, like, like, like he made some kind of comments.

[02:12:52] Next time I'm gonna clean up, like, uh mm-hmm. Oh, that's nice of him. Yeah. Like he, he, he, he said something, something like that. He is like, next time, next time I'll clean up myself. 

[02:13:00] Eldar: Okay. 

[02:13:00] Toliy: You know? All right. 

[02:13:01] Eldar: Cool. That's good. Um, 

[02:13:02] Toliy: yeah, may, may, may. Maybe Then he remembered that it was like, yeah. I, I'm, I'm, I'm not sure.

[02:13:07] Yeah. He felt bad. He 

[02:13:07] Eldar: probably felt bad. Yeah. Because you came across the right way, it seems like, so you probably felt bad and you wanted to take accountability for it. Yeah. As promised Tom, um, land the plane. Give us the final thoughts on what you wanted to say so I can press the button. 

[02:13:22] Tommy: I think for, for me, noticing my own clean cleanliness habits, uh, it's, it's been like almost like a project in a way.

[02:13:31] Like I know that, oh, oh, I only have a certain amount of energy that even if I spend an entire day rooting out, like clutter. Mm-hmm. Um, even an entire day will not solve the problem. That's, this is my own experience. So I've found that, like, that I've reached this kind of point where over time, this project, it like continues to progress.

[02:13:54] And I see it like being like at a point now where I'm like, where I'm very happy with it, you know? Hmm. It's, it's interesting. It's something I find I feel very proud about, um, knowing that like. You know, it's, you know, that, that the, the, the extent of the mess, it actually sort of dissolves over time and that, that's my experience.

[02:14:17] So it's like tinkering with it. That's why I think that's how I see it. You know what I, one thing there times where you just 

[02:14:21] Eldar: wanna like, pull shit out and you wanna just throw it away. You know what I concluded from that? Mm-hmm. I realize that you're a hoarder of non-physical things. Tom? 

[02:14:29] Tommy: I, I did. I used to hoard guys.

[02:14:31] Not, not, not terribly. Not terribly. But I would, I would Hold on the keepsakes and stuff. Yes. Tom, are you done? I would, I would say I used to. I, I said, I'm saying that I used to hold onto shit like press 

[02:14:42] Mike: elder, 

[02:14:43] Tommy: I 

[02:14:43] Mike: think for 

[02:14:43] Tommy: Tom. Come on guys. Tom, hearing what you said. What is this? It's just 

[02:14:46] Mike: a fact about me. I think you exactly complete, what is this?

[02:14:48] Stop cleaning your bed. Yeah. Stop cleaning your room and get as dirty and messy as possible because by the time you clean your room, you need a coffee and you need to sleep. And your day is done. You're making no wasted, you're making no sense. You need to get as dirty as much as possible. It's stressful for him.

[02:15:01] You do. You're 

[02:15:01] Tommy: making 

[02:15:02] Toliy: absolutely no sense. You need to roll in a pool of mud to Yes. You need to get very dirty. Yeah. 

[02:15:07] Tommy: You need to knock yourself out with your own fist. 

[02:15:09] Toliy: You need to be in a pistol. Oh 

[02:15:10] Eldar: wow. We lie. 

[02:15:13] Toliy: Jesus Christ, that I'm on our bike. Alright guys, thank you so much for Alright. That's my final, 

[02:15:17] Eldar: yes.

[02:15:17] Thank you Tom. 

[02:15:18] Toliy: Tom. Alright.