187. Ways to Achieve "Mindfulness" Without Daily Meditations

What does it mean to be mindful?

In this eye-opening episode of our podcast, hosts Eldar, Toliy, Mike, and Katherine dive deep into the often-misunderstood concept of mindfulness, debunking myths like "just meditate for 10 minutes" and revealing it as a powerful tool for escaping autopilot habits and hidden pain. Through candid personal stories—from Katherine's battles with mindless eating and insulin resistance to Mike's rock climbing breakthroughs and Toliy's rushed mornings—the group explores how normalized suffering blocks self-awareness, why arrogance stifles curiosity, and how true mindfulness emerges from recognizing pain, asking tough questions, and eliminating unexamined behaviors. They argue that mindfulness isn't vague zen vibes but a tangible equation: face your pain, get curious about possibilities, and redesign your life for intentional joy, leading to better health, relationships, and self-trust.

Key takeaways include viewing pain as a signal for change, the role of curiosity in broadening perspectives, and practical tips like process-of-elimination for daily routines. Whether you're wrestling with anxiety, bad habits, or just feeling stuck, this raw discussion offers actionable insights to wake up from "sleepwalking" through life.

Building on our popular episode 182 "Self-Love and Backing yourself" where we tackled relationship dynamics and self-identity, and episode 181 on  "Perfectionism" exploring anxiety behind self expectations, we continue unpacking self-improvement themes. Also, check out episode 183 on "Empowerment" for insights on fairness, corruption and boiling anger of today's world. 

Feel stuck and can't actualize? We'd love to hear your story - we can even dissect it on our next episode. Submit your story using this form - https://forms.gle/joegCWQ7mHt7eN3K9

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction: The Pain of Perspective
• 3:07 Defining Mindfulness
• 10:16 The Struggle with Mindless Habits
• 16:01 The Journey to a New Mindset
• 36:55 The Importance of Asking Questions
• 39:28 The Role of Curiosity in Avoiding Conflict
• 46:04 The Power of Curiosity and Mindfulness
• 1:07:45 Understanding Mindless Actions
• 1:25:17 Building Confidence Through Repetition
• 1:37:05 Understanding Personal Equations for Success
• 1:52:30 Final Thoughts on Mindfulness and Daily Energy Management

Transcript

[00:00:00] Eldar: On this week's episode, the pain has to become bigger than the perspective that you had in order to finally say, you know what? I think I was wrong about this. Let me reevaluate you. Broaden your horizons and you start saying what is possible that are out there? Yeah. A new 

[00:00:11] Toliy: mindset. Mindless actions.

[00:00:14] Observant of mindless results. 

[00:00:15] Eldar: You know, I agree with that. Like, that's a t-shirt. What can others do to help those who are trying to be mindful? Okay. She wants to be mindful about something. Mm-hmm. But now she's sleepwalking again, what do I do? You have to wake up every day and say, I don't wanna be in pain.

[00:00:27] Toliy: Yeah. Like, 

[00:00:28] Eldar: you 

[00:00:28] Toliy: almost have to have like 

[00:00:29] Eldar: nothing planned every day, Mike. It's a process of elimination. 

[00:00:32] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:00:32] Eldar: Right? Saying, you know what, let me examine this thing. Oh, it doesn't serve me. Get the fuck outta here.

[00:00:41] All right guys. Tonight's topic. It's an old friend of ours. The word that we kick around a lot. Um, Kat's been mentioning it for the last couple of weeks. It's very important. I guess many people heard of it. Many have not. Many have not. Yes. Many are trying to figure this thing out. 

[00:01:02] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[00:01:03] Eldar: You know, um, I think it's a challenge.

[00:01:04] It's a challenge for, I think for everyone, but I think that it's an ongoing topic and it's an ongoing, uh, word that is prevalent and important in all life. So, take a while. Guess babe. What's the word? 

[00:01:18] Katherine: Mindfulness. Oh wow. 

[00:01:19] Eldar: You're good. Yes. The word mindfulness. 

[00:01:24] Here we go again. Right. So, um, obviously 

[00:01:30] Kat has been kind of wrestling with the word for quite some time or for the of, with the concept, you know, but more so now she's trying to be more mindful about the things that she's doing, how she's moving and how she's paying attention and stuff like that.

[00:01:44] I know Tolis been kicking the word around as well, being kind of mindful right now on the journey that he's on. Right. I think you even said to me a couple weeks, I think you said, um, I don't want to do anything by rushing. Right. So you said something like that, you remember? No, no. But you said something like, I don't wanna do anything with like, without peace.

[00:02:04] Like, you wanna do everything peacefully, you said 

[00:02:06] Toliy: no. Yeah, that would, that would be ideal. 

[00:02:09] Eldar: Okay. Okay. Yes, yes. You know, it was in hypnosis when he said that. 

[00:02:12] Katherine: I think that, yeah, that's, well lemme give you an actual 

[00:02:14] Eldar: example of totally these, right? So you can remember a hundred percent starting from like his morning routine, right.

[00:02:18] For a very long time. Toll's morning routine was always like rushing. He's always late somewhere, right? I guess now maybe he's doing a little bit better. He's taking a walk, he's doing his coffee, he is doing his whatever, whatever, whatever. He's taking his time to actually enjoy his morning routine so he can get a good start.

[00:02:35] So then his day is kind of prepared for, to be more mindful. Yeah. Um, in your case, Mike. I'm 

[00:02:42] Mike: just, I'm never mindful, so I'm chilling. 

[00:02:46] Eldar: Yeah, no, don't, don't lie. Don't lie. No, I'm just talking shit. A lot of times you, you've been, uh, at least right now, you've been talking about how you're trying to be more mindful when it comes to rock climbing.

[00:02:54] Mm-hmm. Right? That's for sure. Um, certain things that you used to oversee or overlook, right. We're standing on the way of your development mm-hmm. As well. Yeah. So what do you guys think about this word? Mindful. Being 

[00:03:10] Mike: mindful. Can we get like a, like an idea that we can agree on? Like, what does it mean? Like a definition ish kind of thing?

[00:03:17] Sure. Babe, you wanna take a stab at it? 

[00:03:21] Katherine: I'll try. Yeah. Um huh. I think that like, 

[00:03:27] I don't know, the, the best way I could say it is to actually like, be present in what you're doing, because you can be mindful while you eat. You can be mindful while, while you work, while you, you know, I don't know, do an activity.

[00:03:41] Take 

[00:03:41] a walk. Right. So I think just being more present might, 

[00:03:48] I don't know. Does No, yeah, no, I think you're right. Set 

[00:03:52] Toliy: the definition. Uh, no. I, I, I was, I was gonna say like, those two words are like, some, sometimes, like they're used in like these, like yoga esque, like, you know, funny ways. Mm-hmm. You know, like, and just be more mindful, right?

[00:04:02] Yeah. Yeah. But I think that we should be able, like we, we, well we should define like, like both of those words without using tho those words. So like, I, like, I think we need to define, define mindfulness without using either, you know, mindful or present. Because they're like, how about slow down? They're like vague.

[00:04:23] I agree with to, how about like, slowing down? I agree with to No, like, it, no, no e even like, that it's not like, like it's not specific, you know, where, where it's like someone's like, like, like if, like if you tell someone, Hey, just be more present. They would, they would be like, what are you talking about?

[00:04:38] Right. Or some people would be like, okay, I understand, but I'm not sure if it, it'll be exactly like what you, uh, envision it, but they're hard, I think to like define, because it's like a, it's a state of being, but to define what it actually is without using those words, I think is Yeah. 

[00:04:57] Eldar: Why don't we, why don't we start then to, uh, bring up maybe some personal examples that we have where on, on one, on one hand, we are not present, we're not in the moment, and we're, let's just say buzzing.

[00:05:08] Right? And on the other hand, we actually are mindful and we we'll about this. 

[00:05:11] Toliy: Okay. Like, you, like when, when someone wants to be more mindful, for example. Mm-hmm. I think mind being mindful or mindfulness is a result of many different things, like the end result of many different things combined into one.

[00:05:26] Right. 

[00:05:27] Eldar: Well, you don't have to explain that. 

[00:05:29] Toliy: Like it's the, uh, like the culmination of everything. So like. If you wanna be mindful, you probably need to, um, n not be, for example, like rushing for example. Right? Sure. Like not be in a rush. Yeah. Like take your time. Would, would, would be one of those things, right?

[00:05:45] Yes. Correct. Another thing would maybe be like, be patient. Mm-hmm. For example. Mm-hmm. Um, 

[00:05:51] Eldar: so a common theme sounds like it's almost like, um, uh, slowing down time. 

[00:05:57] Katherine: Mm-hmm. Audio. Well, I think, I think it's what we're trying to get to is the opposite of mindless, right? Like, so many activities we do on our daily life are mindless, right?

[00:06:09] Mm-hmm. We're full of, uh, anxiety or moving onto the next thing and we're rushing onto to things. So I guess like mindful, I think maybe has lost its meaning because it's used so freely, but, you know, um, getting rid of the, uh, the running. Should we pause? Getting rid of like the. The, the, like you said, like rushing or, or, or mm-hmm.

[00:06:33] Doing things mindlessly is probably like, I guess what we're getting, yeah. I still don't know. Have a better word. Sorry. Totally. 

[00:06:41] Toliy: Yeah. No, I like, I like, I, I, I think I know what you're talking about. 'cause maybe we're talking about like the same thing, but I also know that like, if, if, if, like, if you're struggling with it and someone just said, oh, hey Kat, like, why don't you just be more mindful?

[00:06:58] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[00:06:59] Toliy: Then you would be like, well, like what, what do I do? Kind, kind of thing. Right. Or like, or, or, or maybe like, do, do you, do you, do you think that, like, do you know what needs to be done but you're not doing it? Or like, what, what's your 

[00:07:10] Katherine: Sometimes, yeah, 

[00:07:12] sometimes I, I think, uh, yeah, like for example, um, I can be mindless with, 

[00:07:21] with my eating, right?

[00:07:22] Mm-hmm. 

[00:07:23] So a lot of times we're not, I'm being mindless. Um, and I'm bored, or I'm anxious or whatever. I walk to my pantry to see what's in there, you know, just to, you know, I feel like sometimes you can eat mindlessly, you know, when you sit down in front of a movie and you grab a bowl of popcorn and you just eat and not really paying attention to how much you're consuming or what you're consuming, you're just mindlessly eating, for example.

[00:07:49] Mike: Mm-hmm. So would you say it's like a unexamined behavior? 

[00:07:55] Katherine: Yeah. And I think it could apply to, you know, anything. You know, it could be the way you eat, it could be your friendships, how you interact with people. People Of course. Yeah. Like, you know, literally anything. Mm-hmm. You know? 

[00:08:06] Toliy: So you, you would view that as like doing that would be a, like a bad thing.

[00:08:10] Katherine: What? 

[00:08:11] Toliy: Mind mindless, like eat 

[00:08:13] Katherine: mindless eating? Well, for me, I mean, I don't like to like, you know, put a judgment on it, but for me, it has not served me well, you know? 

[00:08:21] Toliy: Oh, they're good. And how, how do you know, know that? Like how, how do you know that it doesn't serve you well? Um, you 

[00:08:26] Katherine: know, so right now I'm like, I'm dealing with like, being insulin resistant.

[00:08:30] So that happens when, you know, you just have too much, uh, carbs and sugar, the hormone stop, like your body kind of stops responding. It, it starts, it starts kind of becoming like less sensitive to all the insulin or all the glucose that you have. And so I have like symptoms that I deal with on a constant because of it.

[00:08:51] Like, uh, apart from the weight gain, like I have, um, skin tags that I really dislike on my skin. Uh, I have brain fog. I, I have a lot of inflammation to the point where I was getting a massage and I hope, like, she actually asked me, she's like, whoa, like your feet are really inflamed. And I'm like, yes, I have.

[00:09:10] Inflammation. So inflammation makes my, like joints hurt. Um, there's like a ton of things that come with it, for example. Mm-hmm. So for me, particularly being more mindful when I eat could possibly really benefit me with my health. However, it's really hard for me because eating sugar, which I always crave, is a way that I, I guess I, I, I do to, you know, maybe boost my, um, mood or, you know, you know, it's just part of like how I have dealt with like emotions or mm-hmm.

[00:09:46] Moods, right? Mm-hmm. So it's like a vicious circle for me. Um, and I just never, I never, I, I've tried, you know, keto, I've tried this and it'll last for a little bit and then I go back. Um, so it's hard, you know? So for me, mindless eating. Would not necessarily be okay for me. I'm not saying that sitting, having some popcorn during a movie isn't good.

[00:10:08] Mm-hmm. But like, I have to, I should be, uh, conscious of, of what I'm putting into my body because it has consequences for me. 

[00:10:16] Toliy: And, and and why do you think that that's not hap happening like now? 

[00:10:20] Katherine: Oh, also infertility is also part of it as well. 

[00:10:23] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:23] Katherine: Um, get lots of cysts in, in your ovaries and that causes infertility, so.

[00:10:28] Mm-hmm. I mean, like, it's like a cupboard of, of a whole bunch of symptoms that don't make me feel good, you know? And I'm sorry, what was your question after that? 

[00:10:35] Toliy: So, so, so I was asking like, why, why do you think that you still like then eat that kind of way or do those kinds of things? Yeah. 

[00:10:42] Katherine: Well, I think it's mental, it's, it definitely has to do with my mental health because if it was easy as if it was as easy as like, get off your butt every day, get to the gym and just cut out all sugar, and cut out all carbs, and then your life is gonna be perfect.

[00:10:56] Like, I, you know, I'd probably be, you know, an athlete by now, but it, you know, it doesn't. It doesn't click like that for me. Um, what is it exactly? I'm not sure. Um, but I, I can tell you that my pattern of going to the pantry, like if I'm home multiple times a day. 

[00:11:16] Eldar: Well, 

[00:11:17] when you do it right, how do you feel when you, when you engage in mindless activity, right?

[00:11:25] Mm-hmm. Like going into a pain. I think that you use it as a 

[00:11:27] Katherine: crutch for like mood boosting. For sure. Mood boosting. Forget about the CRU part. Yeah. Or if I'm bored. So it's good. 

[00:11:32] Eldar: It feels good. 

[00:11:33] Katherine: Yes, it feels good. 

[00:11:34] Eldar: It feels good. Uhhuh. So I think what TOI is asking you, right, prior to why do you do it actually, right?

[00:11:39] You probably are in pain somewhere in your mind, right? Maybe your body even, right? Mm-hmm. You are in pain. So what you need to do is you need to engage in an activity that's gonna relieve some of that pain. You found that being mindless mm-hmm. And going into the pantry and eating. 

[00:11:55] Katherine: Finding sugar. Yeah, 

[00:11:56] Eldar: finding sugar right is one of those activities.

[00:11:58] I mean, that's like, it's like a normal thing for everyone. 

[00:12:00] Katherine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. 

[00:12:01] Eldar: So it's almost like self preservation. 

[00:12:04] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I, like, I have the same exact, like, like problems for a long time and like I, I've experienced this like same exact things for the last like, like 30 days since changing my diet and like going about things differently.

[00:12:18] And I definitely feel like high stress days might default. Like now, now it's actually slowly changing, but is to crave, to eat poorly or crave sugar or like crave carbs or like to do that, like I actually have that in, in my head, or like being anxious for, for example. Mm-hmm. Like I definitely have that same like, uh, wiring where, where, where it's like, this is what usually you do because yeah, you like you're in pain and you want to like veg out, you know?

[00:12:48] So. 

[00:12:49] Eldar: Okay. You consume those things. So based on what we said, can we say that then? Um, what is it? Oh, I'll ask a question. At least. What is it that we need to be mindful of, and then based on what we just deduced at least, right? I, it sounds like we need to be mindful of pain of our own pain, 

[00:13:06] Toliy: right? Yeah. My mindful of our own pain.

[00:13:08] And like, one, one interesting thing, at least for me is like mindful of like, what do we actually want? Mm-hmm. And, um, 

[00:13:16] Eldar: well, I think before we get to the, the part of what we want, I think we need to, it's easier to recognize, uh, pain, right? 

[00:13:22] Toliy: Yeah, yeah. I think, yeah, recognize pain, but I think that, uh, like a big reason that pain is not recognized is probably because like, pain is normalized in that person's life.

[00:13:33] The, it's, it's actually not even viewed as like pain. Like it's just viewed on as a like. Something that happens. It's like, just like you just, but 

[00:13:40] Mike: it's, but it's, um, but it's a conditional response. You don't think about, oh, I'm in pain. Let me go eat a thing. You already know the process of things here, so 

[00:13:48] Toliy: Well, yeah.

[00:13:48] The pain is forgotten. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Like, you're not in pain actually. Yeah. Like, like if you like stub your toe on something, you actually experience pain because you usually don't. Right. Yeah, yeah. Like it's like a thing. Right. 

[00:13:59] Eldar: Unless you, you into that kind of thing. 

[00:14:00] Toliy: Yes. Yeah. That's some people probably that are, yeah, fine.

[00:14:03] Yeah. But in this case, I, I think that like the pain is difficult to notice because it's like, well, I'm not really like in pain, you know, but you actually are in pain. Yeah. It's just not being acknowledged because it's like, and if 

[00:14:15] Eldar: it is, it's being acknowledged by your mindless self. Yes, exactly. That jumps into the pantry.

[00:14:19] Yes. And like, okay, cool. I'm, let me just, you know, 

[00:14:21] Katherine: yeah. 

[00:14:21] Eldar: Get this over with kind of thing or whatever and like, oh, I'm good now. You know, that pain that you were kind of fighting is probably gone. Right. Um, and you solved that problem. But you probably hit, you have suffer the con, but don't solve the problem.

[00:14:34] No. You just add to the problem. I think, well, you've added some new problem. You have to suffer the consequences behind your mindless 

[00:14:39] Katherine: Also, sometimes you have guilt about what, you know, eating like that or what you ate or, yes. Oh, I stuff myself. Oh, you feel like shit. And then you, you know, you start Yeah.

[00:14:47] Beating yourself about up about that, you know? 

[00:14:50] Eldar: Yeah. So why is it now this, this topic of being mindful is on, on the forefront finally for you? 

[00:14:56] Katherine: Well, you know, like, you know, in the past episodes I've, I've, I've like spoken to you guys about like, um, how necessary mindfulness is in interactions and, and interactions and relationships.

[00:15:09] Mm-hmm. You know, um, like that was highlighted for me, like, you know, the mindfulness, but also like, um, I. I realize that that mindfulness when it comes to just my eating habits or like my, you know, what I, uh, resort to when I'm feeling a certain way mm-hmm. And just becomes, that has become like normal for me.

[00:15:32] Mm-hmm. You know, for some people, oh, you gotta feel like crap. Like, or maybe once in a while then you grab some sugar. No, I go to the pantry all the time if I'm home. Mm-hmm. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm seeking That's your place of residence. That's just my, your favorite Yeah. My comfort zone. You know, your favorite place.

[00:15:47] Yeah. So like, that's become normal for me. So, uh, I don't know. I, I, I, I, I was thinking about it and I think that the mindfulness needs to be everywhere. Obviously it's not just in my eating, it's not just in friendships or in in relationships, but just in general. Like, I think that it, I, it would benefit me.

[00:16:05] It would be a good thing for me mm-hmm. To have that mindfulness everywhere. So I guess that's been on my mind, 

[00:16:09] Eldar: but why is it so hard to come by? Or why is it so hard to sell to yourself? Well, I think, 

[00:16:16] Mike: um. The bad behavior, if you wanna call it the bad behavior, the non mindful behavior. Mm-hmm. We have very good reasons for it.

[00:16:24] Okay. Hmm. If you put your hand in a fire, you have a really good reason to take it out. Yes. You're in pain, it hurts. Like, fuck 

[00:16:29] Eldar: yeah. 

[00:16:30] Mike: Like fucking hell. Right. You do that. Mm-hmm. The re the behavior that's habitual, that's, let's just say it's not good for us. Right. It's also, it's also automated, you know?

[00:16:43] Mm-hmm. And we have good reasons because every time we put our hand in the fire 

[00:16:48] Katherine: mm-hmm. 

[00:16:48] Mike: That whatever the relief that we're looking for, that is already a, like a automated process and we have a very good reason why we do it 'cause we're in pain. Mm. You know, that's the way I am like trying to envision and maybe the hand in the fire is not the best example, but if you're eating spicy food, you mouth on fire, you drink a nice cold drink and it goes away.

[00:17:08] Mm-hmm. You know, like a lossy. 

[00:17:10] Toliy: But, but, um, my, my, my question is that like. If you don't, if you're not conscious about your pain and you're not conscious about the solution that you're doing to that, to that pain for ex, for, for example. Mm-hmm. Like, you could be like observing it as like an outsider or someone else doing it.

[00:17:28] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:29] Toliy: But is there really pain being experienced if you're not aware of it? 

[00:17:34] Mike: I mean, I think, uh, that's a good question. That's a good 

[00:17:36] Katherine: question. Yeah. Yeah. Because in that moment, I 

[00:17:39] Mike: can't, I, I can't answer it. You would have to really, like, in the moment, be able to say you feel in pain. Right? 

[00:17:45] Toliy: Be, be because like, if you like, like, think about that for like any kind of action that, like you observe someone else doing, right?

[00:17:53] Mm-hmm. Let, let's just say that like, um, but just bank, like, uh, like blanket the statement. Like you see someone that has their like shit together for, for, for example, that mm-hmm. That like statement. Do you think that person's like, they, they have that, like they just are like, they're just living their lives.

[00:18:10] They're not living the lives of the person who doesn't have their shit together, right? Mm-hmm. Who. Like enamored about how this person has their shit together, right? Mm-hmm. They're just living out their, their, their reality, which is a normal reality for them. Mm-hmm. It's not a I have my shit together.

[00:18:28] Reality. Hmm. Or the opposite again, the, the person who's doing that. Um, if you're not conscious about it, then I, I, I, I don't even think that it, that it's pain anymore. Like, it, it, it is just like who you are and what, what you are. Mm-hmm. And, um, like, it 

[00:18:46] Mike: just is, you know, maybe it's not as dramatic, but I think there's a small, small pain, but it's, 

[00:18:54] Eldar: no, I thi I think that there might be pain, but I think that pain, uh, gets discovered when you, uh, try to separate your, your conscious self versus your, um, subconscious self.

[00:19:04] Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. In the moment where the sub, the conscious self, it says, oh shit, like, that's bad behavior. I didn't like how that feels, or whatever you like, you start realizing that. Everything that you've done was from subconscious behavior that you never paid attention to. 

[00:19:18] Toliy: Yeah. No. 

[00:19:18] Eldar: Right. And then finally it hit hard enough for your conscious behavior to say, oh shit, I don't like this.

[00:19:25] This hurts. You know? Mm-hmm. Now you can point the finger, it says, we don't like this. Mm-hmm. Only then I think that you bridge the gap between. Completely just kind of this is part of who you are. 

[00:19:36] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:19:37] Eldar: To finally raising enough awareness to yourself is like, oh shit, I've been doing this to myself this whole time.

[00:19:42] Mm-hmm. And I think that's what happened to Catherine, for example, from the previous, uh, podcast that we had. Right. About relationships where that one actually got very popular. 

[00:19:50] Mike: Mm-hmm. I 

[00:19:50] Eldar: wonder who's listening? Um 

[00:19:53] Katherine: mm-hmm. 

[00:19:54] Eldar: Right. Where she Yeah. Was going and being a certain type of way for quite some time for a while.

[00:19:59] Right. People pleasing and being a certain type of way where it was just automatic. Mm-hmm. Right. Where the pain that other people around her saw, for example, the way she was maybe embarrassing herself or embarrassing us as a couple, you know what I mean? Or other friends. She didn't see any of that pain.

[00:20:14] But finally there was a, the straw that broke the camel's back that she's like, oh, and now I get it. 

[00:20:22] Toliy: Yeah. 'cause no, no one can hold their hand in the fire. Right. No one, 'cause like, you, you actually feel the pain. Like you, you, you need to. Mm-hmm. But in these kinds of cases, like. It's so, uh, normalized. It's, 

[00:20:35] Eldar: it's almost, it's almost so interesting that like, uh, what do they say?

[00:20:37] Like, ignorance is bliss. Yeah. I think it's like the same thing where like, this pain is pain less. Mm-hmm. If you are, uh, not mindful. 

[00:20:44] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:20:45] Eldar: If it's 

[00:20:45] Toliy: mindless. Yeah. And, and, and that's like, it's like a, I guess could be a good thing as like, as far as like, it's like a, uh, like not to over overwhelm you with things kind of like a mechanism.

[00:20:58] Mm-hmm. But it's also a bad thing because it's like the, the person who wants change and is trying to, you know, I don't know, do different diets or do different things that might be like a conscious, like thinking person, but it's hard to, it's hard to find a solution for some. Like, it, it's, it's, it's almost like, um, I dunno if you remember when we were talking like, you know, I don't know, maybe like a couple years back or whenever, um, about like my anxiety stuff.

[00:21:25] Mm-hmm. When the, when like I'm talking with you guys and we're talking about it. I can't relate with a person who's really anxious. That's going nuts. 

[00:21:33] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:21:33] Toliy: And like, I don't even, I almost don't even feel like that's me when I'm talking about it. Imagine how we felt when I'm Yeah, no, no, I know. So I'm saying that like, I can't even, like, you can't even like think about taking steps to do something because when you're conscious about it, like you're removed from that person.

[00:21:50] Yeah. You're not that person. So 

[00:21:52] Katherine: Yeah. It's like two different people. Like a gentle in eye. Yeah. Thinking about, 

[00:21:55] Toliy: thinking about solutions for someone that you're right now thinking and not conscious about, uh, I mean, it's very difficult. 

[00:22:01] Eldar: Yeah. So it just sounds like a lot of times with sleepwalking. Yeah. A lot of times when we Yeah.

[00:22:06] Engage in mindless behavior. 

[00:22:07] Katherine: Autopilot. 

[00:22:08] Eldar: Autopilot, mindless. Right. But I guess the moment we start raising enough awareness to say like, oh, I'm experiencing this pain, I'm feeling it. Right? You then start to dig a little bit into this subconscious behavior and some of the patterns or, or bad habits that you do have, right?

[00:22:24] And you start to uncover, it's like, okay, why do I do this? And then you start to kind of bridge the, the causation between the things. Mm-hmm. When I feel this way, I do this. When I feel that way, I do that. Right. Um, but the whole point, Kat is trying to be more mindful and all the things, um, all the things life.

[00:22:45] Toliy: But, but, so like what, what leads to wanting to have that like desire?

[00:22:53] Hmm. She's fed up. 

[00:22:55] Katherine: I feel like 

[00:22:56] I have like, you know, like the two things going on, like what I told you guys with my relationships, um, and like what I shared with you guys in the last few podcasts, that's one side. Mm-hmm. I don't know if that has like. Being that like, that's been on my mind. I've, I've been speaking about it, um, not just with you guys, but just speaking about it in general.

[00:23:15] I don't know if that like catapulted this, but, um, I heard, I was listening to a podcast where a guy was talking about like insulin resistance. He is like an expert in metabolism and insulin resistance. And he, it was very educational, like the way he spoke about it. And I came out of that like seeing how harmful, like if I keep on going down this path without like, like, you know, bettering myself, like the, the health issues are, are big.

[00:23:47] And not only that, but if I do get pregnant, I have a child, I will, they will have predis pre predisposition to have like blood sugar problems, uh, higher chances of obesity, all this stuff. So like, I don't know what it was, but I think maybe just educating myself more and then really seeing like. How harmful it is for me, for my health, but also possibly my, my kids.

[00:24:10] I think that kind of like gave me like a, an extra push and for almost, I think it's, I'm not really counting, but it feels like almost two weeks. I've been a little, I've been more mindful with my eating sugar 

[00:24:22] Eldar: free, um 

[00:24:23] Katherine: mm-hmm. 

[00:24:23] Eldar: Sugar free cat. 

[00:24:24] Katherine: Not a hundred percent. Because on Saturday with Mike's birthday, oh yes.

[00:24:27] Yeah. Um, there was some cakes involved and I, I had, you know, but even when I did have, I had like a lot less than 

[00:24:34] Eldar: not a mouthful. I typically 

[00:24:35] Katherine: have, you know, it was, it was different, but I've just been more mindful. And so today when I was, took a walk with Elder, that's when I think, uh, I, I, I was talking to him and that's where it kind of came together, where I think I told him like, it's not just in one area, you know, it could be food, it could be friendships.

[00:24:55] It, it might just be mindfulness in general, which is something that I can be very mindless with my a DD brain just jumping around. I can't focus sometimes like. I'm starting to notice that I told him like, I'm not reaching, I don't have that anxiety for the pantry. Like I, I realized last night that I was like, oh my gosh, like I can't remember when was the last time I opened the pantry.

[00:25:17] Like, like in the way that I do. I've been spending a lot of time at home and I'm thinking to myself like, that's different. Something has changed. Like, so something in my behavior has changed. 

[00:25:28] Toliy: Mm-hmm. So yeah, I feel here I am feel also it's like, 

[00:25:31] Katherine: I don't know 

[00:25:31] Toliy: when, when implementing things that like require change.

[00:25:35] Um, I feel like some of the things are like so-called, let's just say like difficult to like keep up or do because just as much as there's not enough mindfulness for like the bad behavior there, there is also no mindfulness for what good things come out of it. You know, and like, you don't acknowledge those, those things.

[00:25:55] Mm. Um, but you might be feeling something good. 

[00:25:58] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:25:58] Toliy: Um, but you don't know it, I guess, or you don't think about it. Mm. So it's like you're not also not correlating like, oh, like someone you like, like I used to feel inflamed and now I don't for, for example. Mm. Like that's a clear difference in feeling. Mm.

[00:26:14] You know, so you're saying you're getting, 

[00:26:15] Eldar: you're getting stung by a bee every day and now you're not. 

[00:26:19] Toliy: Pretty much. Yeah. 

[00:26:20] Eldar: Is it because you're no longer, you no longer acting like a honey bear? Honey bear tea. Yeah. And putting your paws inside the hive. 

[00:26:28] Katherine: Sweet. Totally bear. That's what Gina called. Sweet.

[00:26:29] Totally 

[00:26:30] Eldar: bear. She called. Yeah. Sweet. Totally. Imagine he dresses up every morning and goes into a hive and gets stung every day. Yeah. 

[00:26:37] Toliy: To get some honey. Yeah. All, all, all all of these different things are like, um, on the bad and the good. It, it, it, it's just an overall like inability to notice things, to notice what's going on, because I don't think that.

[00:26:51] Like, I think it takes a long time to really know like, what, what, like someone is like capable of like what, what you're capable of and what's possible and what's not possible. And I think oftentimes you don't pay attention to things because like, you don't even view it as like it's possible. 

[00:27:07] Katherine: Yeah. Or like you 

[00:27:09] Toliy: rule it out.

[00:27:09] I that, yeah. And you ignore normalized other things and those things are possible to, to, to you. Yeah. 

[00:27:14] Katherine: I think this is a very good point. You know what, what might correlate with this? I'm sorry, I'm just gonna bring it my Yeah. About is a good point. Experience is, um, not to, you know, TMI, but I guess TMI, um, my, my, I I've been dys regular, like I've had a hormonal imbalance, like for the longest time.

[00:27:31] Eldar: I think the, my whole world already has that, so don't worry. And 

[00:27:34] Katherine: so, um, it's, it's called PCOS. And so in the last three months, um, I do go to acupuncture every week to like, you know, to help out with this. But in the last three months I've been regular. And it's never happened to me before in my life. So I think that the mindset mindset has, has shifted too.

[00:27:55] I started feeling different. I started feeling different in my mind and in my body. I didn't know how to explain it. And I spoke to my doctor about it and he's like, that's because like they're both finally aligning and boom at the same time that this is happening. I start getting my period every single month and I'm like, what the hell is happening?

[00:28:12] So it's been, it's about to be, so in a few days it would technically be like a fourth month, and I think that. As I'm starting to finally like, not just say it, but believe it. Because for a long time I thought like my body just didn't work. I was like, oh no, that, you know, I'm not healthy. I don't get my period, I can't get pregnant.

[00:28:33] It becomes like this, this, this repetition that. Like, I don't believe in my own body. I don't believe that it works properly. So if you don't believe that it works, it's definitely not gonna work. But if you start shifting that mindset and you start talking to, you know, not talking to yourself negatively, which I started doing, everything is starting to fall into place.

[00:28:51] And I'm in a place where I didn't see possible for a long time saying, 

[00:28:54] Toliy: yeah, I feel, I'm feel like if, if you don't know what's possible, then I don't think you'll dig hard enough or, or like long to find out to, to, to find out exactly. Mm-hmm. What to actually do. What, what's the actual problems, what's the actual, um, solutions.

[00:29:08] Because like, um, like if I gave you like, um, a puzzle to put together and, um, but I told you ahead of time, like, Hey. It's missing, it's not gonna work. You're 

[00:29:20] Katherine: gonna lose. 

[00:29:20] Toliy: Yeah. It's missing like one third of the pieces. Yeah. Are you really gonna go try and actually put it together? Probably not. Exactly. You know when, when you feel that way ahead of time.

[00:29:29] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:29] Toliy: So, um, yeah, I feel like, but, but, but it's also a difficult to ask, like, Hey, just think about what's possible. You know? It's like, 

[00:29:38] Katherine: yeah. 

[00:29:38] Toliy: It's also a very, like, vague, like, you see, that's a very, it's vague 

[00:29:41] Katherine: and we're not always ready, you know? Yeah. Like, you have to be ready for, for whatever the change or the mindsets are.

[00:29:46] Yeah. 

[00:29:47] Eldar: I, no, I think that this, this is exactly what I was gonna say and add that, that tos point is a very good point. A lot of times we are very narrow minded. Yes. When it comes to our own abilities as human beings, right? Mm-hmm. We just box ourselves in. Mm-hmm. It's a very specific narrative. Um, 

[00:30:01] Katherine: it's negative, it's a very negative mindset.

[00:30:03] Oh, it doesn't matter what it is, you know, 

[00:30:04] Eldar: positive or negative. I think that they probably work the same. You have a narrative, uh, that you've built up right in accordance to your belief systems values or the truth that you've discovered about yourself or the world. And then. This schema that you've planted in your brain, you have to live it out like it has an expiration date, but you know, certain variables have to come into place, right?

[00:30:25] Sure. Maybe friends who's gonna say no, Catherine, uh, one plus one is not three. Like you think it's actually two. And this is why, right? If you come across a challenger, right? Or you bang your bang your own head against the wall, right? Where you find out that one plus one is not three as you thought, right?

[00:30:42] So like you need to go through certain life experiences and motions and things in order to dismantle this little, um, perspective that you've built up for yourself. And because you have this perspective and probably have attachments to it for your own reasons, right? Negative self-talk, positive self-talk, or whatever, it's gonna continue to be alive as long as it's possible until you start raising awareness or there's pain that's coming from it, and you start correlating the causation between the pain.

[00:31:09] That's the. The delusion that you are believing in and to the pain, um, that you're extracting from it. The pain has to, I guess, oversee, become bigger than, uh, the perspective that you had in order to finally say, you know what? I think I was wrong about this. Let me reevaluate. Mm-hmm. And that's when you get into the whole totally.

[00:31:27] What totally saying is that you broaden your horizons and you start saying what is possible. 

[00:31:32] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:32] Eldar: You know, and then you start finding new doctors, you start finding new narratives that are out there. Yeah. A 

[00:31:38] Katherine: new mindset. A new mindset. And I think that like 

[00:31:40] Toliy: a a a lot of this I think happens to begin with is like, yeah, like you, you kind of accept, or like you subscribe to particular things or like ways of, of, of doing things and stuff like that.

[00:31:51] But I also think that, um, when people think about life and they think about, um, different aspects of, of it, um, people view, view things in very, very, like basic ways. Someone says like, oh, you want to be happy? Make more money, for example. 

[00:32:12] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:13] Toliy: Like, so they're, they're basically saying that the thing about all the components that, that lead to happiness and that's required of happiness.

[00:32:21] Mm-hmm. And someone is just, someone is just telling you just to go make more money, for example. Yeah. Or go to the gym. Yeah. Or go to the gym. Like mm-hmm. There, like, if we actually broke down as to like, what, how, how about, sorry, 

[00:32:32] Katherine: but how about when people say you're anxious? Just don't be anxious. Don't worry.

[00:32:36] Yeah. How about that one? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That too. Just stop being anxious. Yeah. 

[00:32:40] Toliy: You know? Yeah. Like, the way that they talk about things makes me believe that they feel that life is, is simple. There's not much to it. It's, it like, it's just like a combination of like. A few basic actions, which well, let, let me 

[00:32:53] Eldar: push 

[00:32:53] Toliy: back on that then.

[00:32:54] Eldar: Totally. Yeah. I, I, I agree with you. I agree with No, but let me push back on you on like, you do 

[00:32:58] Katherine: x your life is gonna be great. Is that what you're, what if you go around 

[00:33:00] Eldar: every single day, you wake up and you say to yourself, I'm poor, I have no money. Mm-hmm. I, I'm poor, I have money. Money, I'm unhealthy. No, no, no, no.

[00:33:08] Forget about the unhealthy part. We're just gonna go with the money part. I can't buy this. I can't buy that. I can't retire my parents. I can't do this because of money. Right. So if you come across a person who's all about money and you know, made it or whatever, they're gonna say, go make more money. Go make money.

[00:33:26] Yeah. So like, if you, if your whole life is tied to one specific variable, like money, let's just say, and you are clearly, your perspective is that I am unhappy because I don't have money. What's the problem with that guy coming in and saying that, okay, go make more money and this is how you do it. 

[00:33:42] Toliy: No, no.

[00:33:43] And that, that, that's maybe not exactly what, what I'm talking about, like, um. For example, like when I talk to my dad at times mm-hmm. And he'll be telling me something and like I'm listening to what he's saying and like I'm asking him questions or I'm saying like, no, no, no, this or like, I'm interrupting every, every five seconds.

[00:34:01] Mm-hmm. Because like I can't continue with the conversation until we discuss particular things. Right. Yeah. He'll tell me that like, I'm overly sensitive or like I'm trying to complicate things, for example. But so to him it's like the ridiculous things that he's saying or that he wants me to accept in the conversation, um, to him these are like simple things that like, you don't really need to think about this Well, because his equation works for him.

[00:34:27] Yeah. It's simple. 

[00:34:28] Eldar: In order for him to, it's what he's learned. Make you to, to see the same equation he has to make you accept his rules. Well, that's what I'm saying in the conversation, like totally has 

[00:34:37] Katherine: to abide by the same thoughts and rules in order to like, to 

[00:34:40] Toliy: come to the same conclusion. To come to the same conclusion.

[00:34:42] That's what I'm saying is that the, the people who are suffering the, the most, they. Blanket everything. Mm-hmm. Into like one category or like one thing. And then they don't dissect the intricacies of all the different things that make up it. Correct. And when they hear you trying to, um, go into detail about all these different concepts or things they're like.

[00:35:07] You're making this more than it's supposed to be, or like you're overanalyzing it or like, like, we like that. Like that doesn't matter. You know? Or like, stuff like that. They'll use those kind of words to, to tell you that hey, life is actually way more simpler. Just, just blanket do this and blanket do that.

[00:35:25] And you'll do that, I think will fall in order. Yes. Mm-hmm. That, that's, that's what I'm saying. It's almost so it's 

[00:35:30] Eldar: alm, sorry Mike, I'm just gonna put one point, it's almost sounds like his dad is actually saying, hey. Totally. Mm-hmm. Uh. Don't be mindful. Yeah, yeah. Don't be mindful in this conversation. A hundred percent.

[00:35:39] I don't want you to ask. 'cause 

[00:35:40] Katherine: mindfulness wouldn't work in the conversation. Correct. Right. Yeah. Like if Toley is mindful and his dad is not correct, you, you guys are not gonna agree or get correct, you know, come to same conclusion. Yeah. 

[00:35:48] Eldar: But Tole is not willing to have that type of conversation. He wants to actually find out what's going on.

[00:35:52] That's why he's by definition saying, dad, what does this mean, dad? What does that mean? Why do you use this word to explain this phenomenon? Why? Why do you use this in order to get to the same measuring ruler that we're using centimeters or inches in order to measure whatever is we're trying to measure.

[00:36:07] You know, to get on the same page before you can have any kind of intellectual conversation. 

[00:36:11] Toliy: And oftentimes he'll tell me, 

[00:36:13] Eldar: nevermind, fuck off. 

[00:36:14] Mike: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Enough. Sorry, my, go ahead. So, so it's too 

[00:36:17] Katherine: challenging. Yeah, I know. It 

[00:36:19] Mike: hurts. I know. What's all he's talking about. It hurts his brain. And I had like a similar conversation with my dad, but I think we all have these conversations.

[00:36:25] Katherine: Literally everyone. 

[00:36:26] Mike: So what, what's the right thing to do? Like, do you meet them where they're at or do you try to push? Well, that's a good, I think that, well first of all, I don't think that 

[00:36:34] Eldar: we should push any type of agenda. Ever. Mm-hmm. That's from the jump. I think we're just gonna hurt ourselves by pushing anything, remember forcing mm-hmm.

[00:36:42] Stuff. But I think that we can't violate ourselves and, and, and, and the conversation that to is having with his dad Totally. A hundred percent should be himself. Mm-hmm. Which is mindful in that moment. Mm-hmm. By asking the right questions. If you are not, you actually are vi violating yourself and you are people pleasing.

[00:37:00] In that moment in order just to side with their perspective. Right. And promote more of the nonsense. What did they 

[00:37:05] Mike: tell you? Like, Hey, actually I want to be on this level. Like, fuck up. That's right. Well, 

[00:37:08] Eldar: then, then what's the point? What, where, what Isation, so, so then why 

[00:37:11] Mike: do you, yeah, why do you keep pushing?

[00:37:13] Like why do you keep, what do you mean pushing, 

[00:37:14] Eldar: like 

[00:37:14] Mike: having 

[00:37:15] Eldar: that conversation? I don't think that to totally Dad totally is calling his dad and, uh, he's forcing his advice on how he should change his life. He said that my dad is calling me and starting to complain. Okay. So if, if, if your, his dad initiates the conversation mm-hmm.

[00:37:27] It's only right for total to defend himself in that moment by asking questions. 

[00:37:31] Okay. 

[00:37:31] You'll have to keep asking questions up until you say. What's the point? Why are you telling me this then? 

[00:37:36] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:36] Eldar: Right? Yeah. And it like, oh, I'm just venting. Okay, cool. Then okay, then you're just venting. Then we don't have a 

[00:37:41] Mike: conversation.

[00:37:42] Bye. Okay. Yeah, that's true. But how do you, how do you find out like the, I guess the questions that should be asked, like, you may be asking, ask questions versus I think person, you 

[00:37:50] Eldar: don't, you don't, you don't go off of, oh, I'd like to find out which actual questions like a robot to ask. No. Your one sole purpose in the conversation is try to understand what that person is saying, and I'm gonna tell you right now, if you pay attention to how his dad speaks and how he structures his words, there is no understanding that you can get out of it.

[00:38:09] You're gonna be like, what? So all you need to do is try to understand the other person by doing what, being mindful. You have to be, be mindful in the conversation and really ask the questions when you don't understand what they're saying. Mm-hmm. Don't run and assume certain things. Just like you had a conversation with Andre, right.

[00:38:28] He said, ah, I don't have no time to self-actualize or whatever. You know? You thought self-actualization was one thing. He's thinking about something else. Yeah. You ran with it. And you guys came to a wrong conclusion and not in an agreeance, right? Mm. But if you defined what it means to be self-actualized for him versus you, you quickly find out you have, you don't have a conversation like 

[00:38:47] Katherine: instead of Mike, uh, assuming that, correct.

[00:38:49] Like that they agree on the definition. Correct. The definition is completely correct. Not even, and that is a lot. So Mike, should, Mike, Mike can ask for example. 

[00:38:57] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:38:58] Katherine: Hey, like, what's your definition of sex? Self exploitation. Correct. A 

[00:39:01] Eldar: lot of times people have conversations and they, they have no idea, well, 

[00:39:04] Katherine: I'm guilty of this old.

[00:39:05] Yes. This is what, 

[00:39:07] Eldar: no, no, but it's not just you. I think the most of the world is why we have so many problems in the first place. Why we're not on the same page is that we don't even know what's going on. We just, we just act out of assumptions based on wrong perceptions about the world that we have.

[00:39:22] That's what's going on, and that's how war start. If you became, I told you, we have an episode about, uh, anti-war. In order to eradicate war, you have to be, everybody have to be become curious. If you become curious, you just keep asking questions and never leads to war. Because you actually wanna find out.

[00:39:38] Katherine: Hmm. 

[00:39:38] Eldar: There's no war in that. So if you constantly ask questions and try to find out where you're at, you might be able to one day have a conversation about the reality of things, how the world really is. Right. Versus just how his dad pre assumed how the world is. And now he's just kind of drowning in that perspective.

[00:39:59] And that's what's happening, right? 

[00:40:01] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like if, if you just start asking questions, for example, um, to understand maybe Yeah, yeah. To understand maybe like one of three outcomes will happen. Like one, you'll realize that you guys were thinking completely two different things and defining things completely different.

[00:40:17] Like, like you were just saying earlier there. Yep. Um, the second thing is that, um, the person will give up in that conversation. They run out, they run outta seminar. They, what, what, what, what they wanted to actually do. Is that Yes. Pity punch. They, they, yeah. They, they basically wanted you to actually agree with their view.

[00:40:35] Then just like tell you something versus like actually get to the bottom of something. And when that happens, but you keep asking questions, they get sick and tired of explaining because they actually can't explain them themselves. Like what, what, what, what they're saying actually makes no sense. And at some point in that conversation, they get there and they can actually, they get like angry or, or they'll check out.

[00:40:58] Yeah. Or they'll, or they're, or they'll figure out a way to like check out or say like, nevermind. That's right. Um, your mom does this to you. 

[00:41:05] Katherine: She does this to me, but I'm, I'm seeing myself. And so before, mm-hmm. Before therapy, before 

[00:41:12] Eldar: you were like that with me, anything, 

[00:41:13] Katherine: I was like this with you. Hundred percent.

[00:41:14] Because you were challenging question me. Yeah. Because I didn't even understand. 

[00:41:18] Eldar: Yes. What is happening. 

[00:41:20] Katherine: I couldn't process my emotions. It's a roll. Correct. I didn't understand them, so I couldn't communicate them. She had problems with me and I had no awareness. And now relationship Yes. Of why it was, you know, you just, let's just call it, you're completely in the dark and here's this person trying to get it out.

[00:41:33] And you, you're like. 

[00:41:34] Toliy: Or like, I, I'm confused. I love the, uh, let's agree to disagree. What the fuck? You know? Yeah. You know, what a fucking line. No, no, no. 

[00:41:41] Katherine: But, but I think what we're not seeing is like he's in such a place. I've been there, my parents are there. He's in such a place where he has, he's so in the cave.

[00:41:50] He, he, he can't, he's ha he's not having this conversation with you because he can't have this conversation with you. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, you're gonna try to ask questions and he's gonna have zero, like clue to how to answer it. 

[00:42:03] Eldar: But they're arrogant enough. Yeah. And they're artistical enough to bring that type of conversations to you in the first place.

[00:42:08] Yeah. 

[00:42:09] Katherine: You know, I was raising my hand earlier because I wanted to tie in. I don't know how it totally dealt with this. I I wanted to tie it in. I, I remember totally bringing us a conversation one time where he was having a conversation with his mom and you were challenging or questioning her. I can't remember what it was.

[00:42:24] And she actually told you like, Hey. Mm-hmm. Like, enough enough. Like, how about you just like, let me vent and do my thing and then like, just, just call it. And I also wanted to add to that, that I think what your dad, he's not really trying to get you on his side or have a conversation. I think sometimes he might just be wanting to vent about it.

[00:42:43] Well, no, he doesn't 

[00:42:45] Toliy: know. He doesn't know what he is getting himself into when starting that conversation to begin with. When starting the conversation with you, he assumes that I'm just gonna, I 

[00:42:50] Katherine: think he just wants to be heard. 

[00:42:51] Toliy: Yeah. He just assumes I'm just gonna say, okay, okay, okay. 

[00:42:54] Katherine: Right. 

[00:42:54] Toliy: And then like, but, but, but like, when he's doing this, it's usually like, um, it, it's usually someone like explaining to you what's going on.

[00:43:04] But like 

[00:43:05] Katherine: in their perspective, in their point of view, yes. Which is different, but they don't view as like, 

[00:43:08] Toliy: Hey, 

[00:43:09] Katherine: yeah, 

[00:43:10] Toliy: I could be looking at things wrong, but here's how I'm looking at things. Like they're, they're not talking like that. Yeah. Well, because they're telling you that, like, because 

[00:43:16] Katherine: they don't have the awareness.

[00:43:17] Yeah. 

[00:43:18] Toliy: There's no awareness there. They're, they're, they're basically trying to bring you in to like agree with them by saying like, like, like for example, they could be describing to you how like life's unfair and they could be explaining to you like a, um, a concept about that and 

[00:43:32] Katherine: well, that's the pain that we're unaware of at the time.

[00:43:35] Like, well, yeah, they might be unaware of that pain Right 

[00:43:37] Toliy: the way, but, but the way that they're talking, talking about it is not that like they could be wrong, for example, and here's how they feel. They tell you like, Hey, here's how things are. With that said, but mm-hmm. But like, if you don't interrupt them, if you don't ask questions, then like Yeah.

[00:43:51] You're almost like inauthentically in that conversation, agreeing that like what they're saying is true. So let's continue. But 

[00:43:58] Katherine: yeah, I agree. But 

[00:43:59] Toliy: like, what are they ultimately like? One outta you, like when they're asking you stuff, like they're trying to either figure something out or like trying to like seek something.

[00:44:08] Yeah. But you can't even get to that point where you can do anything unless you guys agree. Like if you're looking at a map and there's no compass on the map that like you agree upon like that, like every one inch is actually like a hundred miles for, for example, like in the world, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:44:24] Like, um, a map is a compass to explain to you what things are and what things mean. And if there's no compass, then two people can't look at the map, they can't get anywhere. And yeah, they're gonna say like, Hey, this is a river. No, this is actually a mountain. Yeah. So where's their greens? How can you both look at a map, talk about it without agreeing to it?

[00:44:43] So like I, I look at it as like, we have to agree in a particular compass and we have to agree that like, okay, this is it, this is this, this is, this is this. Now let's talk about. What, what, like where are we going? You wanna talk about, right? Yeah. Like where, 

[00:44:56] Eldar: where, where we're going. And if you pay attention, a lot of times, at least for our parents, right, what are they they want from us?

[00:45:02] A lot of times it's attention, right? Yeah. They want our attention. Listen, they just want us, us listen to hear them, listen, to listen. That what I, what I find a lot of the times though, right? You know, a lot of times my mom will accuse me and say, Hey, you don't have time for me, you don't have this for me.

[00:45:15] You know, you never pay attention, we never have conversations or whatever. You know? 

[00:45:18] Katherine: It's wild that she says that. 'cause she, but the 

[00:45:20] Eldar: truth of the matter is, right When I do have these conversations with her, or I sit her down and say, okay mom, what are we talking about? Like, let's actually do, she'll quickly pull what, uh, toll's dad will pull, right?

[00:45:30] Because I'll get to the point of asking questions. I'm like, ma, what are you saying? 'cause you're not saying anything. You haven't said anything, right? You're either gonna dance around the topic. Right. Trying to shove her point down my throat. Mm-hmm. Me feel bad for her. She wants someone to tell, 

[00:45:44] Katherine: tell her.

[00:45:44] Yes. Yes, you're right. Yes. You know that thing where we always talk about Yeah. Like we see like, uh, love shows. Love. Yes. Yeah. When girls just like, they just wanna be coddled and they just want someone to say, yeah, of course. You know, like they using the crying method pad you on in your back and like, even though you might be wrong, but like, they just want, that's basically what 

[00:46:02] Eldar: Yeah.

[00:46:02] Katherine: People seek. Yeah. 

[00:46:04] Eldar: But if you want to be mindful, especially in conversations, I think that the most important thing, Mike, is to understand. You have to try to understand what they're saying. You know, so it's not a matter of like, oh, which questions should I ask? Whatever questions you need to ask in order to understand where they're coming from.

[00:46:23] Mike: No, but my question, I mean, you are not gonna say, Hey, what's the fucking square root of like a million or whatever? You ask questions that is on the level that they can comprehend. You can't ask advanced shit. Or maybe you can, I'm not sure. That's why I'm asking. 

[00:46:37] Eldar: Oh no. You have to ask what you have. Like I said, you have to ask whatever questions, however questions you need to ask in order to get to a, a conclusion that is sound for both of you.

[00:46:46] Mm-hmm. Or you both are on the same page, and then build off of that conclusion. Yeah. And no, I understand that, but, and if it has to be complicated, you have to complicate it first, but then you have to uncomplicated it as much as you can in order for the person to actually understand what you're talking about.

[00:46:59] Katherine: Yeah. Because you need to be understand. 

[00:47:00] Mike: Yeah. The thing is, I don't, I don't understand, like, then I'd like to understand how do you do that? I feel like, what do you do that all the time actually? 

[00:47:08] Eldar: Huh? 

[00:47:08] Mike: You actually do that. With interactions with people. Actually, it's your question. How do you ask, 

[00:47:13] Katherine: how do you find the right question?

[00:47:15] Well, 

[00:47:15] Mike: I think like, yeah, I think you say, because I definitely have that question as well. You, it's not the right, right. Application, Uhhuh, but you say you have to meet the person where they're at. Right. Uhhuh And the way I inter, like I'm thinking about in this case is you have to ask them the questions and the level that they're functioning, right?

[00:47:27] Yeah. Like me and you can't, I can't be a master's in one thing. And you in Sure. First grade. Yeah. And I can't be like asking you master's level questions. Yeah. I have to ask you some kind of higher grade than first maybe. Sure. But like, that's what I mean by asking the right questions. 

[00:47:42] Toliy: But I think, no, but I think the purpose of that conversation is actually to figure out where they're at.

[00:47:47] Eldar: Yeah. Mm-hmm. So, so 

[00:47:48] Toliy: you're not like first meeting them where they're at. Like if you're doing that, then like in that conversation, like you're like assuming or making a judgment and then asking questions based on that. Well, maybe in 

[00:47:58] Mike: the first interaction, but like, 

[00:48:00] Toliy: no, but even afterwards, like they're, they're trying to tell you something.

[00:48:03] Mm-hmm. And I think that like. It's your like, job and like a way to figure out what are they actually saying. Mm-hmm. And, um, once you guys both get there, you guys both understand kind of where you're at. 

[00:48:15] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[00:48:16] Toliy: You know? Mm-hmm. So, so like, I like, yeah. Like I feel like the, the purpose of the questions is to like, find an answer for that in that moment.

[00:48:24] Mm-hmm. You know, because obviously like not everyone's at the same place at all times and all things, right? Mm-hmm. If someone's like, furious and angry and acting, I don't know, outta spite, like some, some something like that. You start like, um, speaking to them and you can identify that, okay, like this is where they're at.

[00:48:43] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[00:48:44] Toliy: But, um, yeah, same, same thing I think in these kind of moments is that like your, your questions are like very, um, they're very easy to ask because like, you probably understand. Tho tho 

[00:48:59] Eldar: those concepts. 

[00:48:59] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[00:49:00] Eldar: And I think you do definitely do. I think that that's why people gravitate towards you.

[00:49:03] They show you, they're like, Hey, they want to continue to have conversations and engage with you. Mm-hmm. It's for that reason. They might not know that that's the reason yet. Mm. You know what I mean? But it's because you are inquisitive in, in your nature, actually. 

[00:49:14] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:49:15] Eldar: Yeah. Like some, you might not be shooting in the right direction every time with every person.

[00:49:18] Mm-hmm. That's for sure. Oh, yeah. It takes time to get to know. Well, that's what I'm trying to say. I think that's where it's, I'm trying to, 

[00:49:23] Mike: that's what I'm trying to go at is shooting. That's what totally Right, right. Direction. But like, for example, with our parents, yeah. I feel like we've known them long enough.

[00:49:30] Yeah. And maybe not, maybe I'm wrong about it, but I feel, I think 

[00:49:33] Eldar: yeah. I 

[00:49:33] Mike: think you underestimate that maybe. Yeah. Maybe I'm underestimating that like the behavior patterns, at least from the stuff that I was, I thought is like usually the same complaints, right? Yeah. But I guess it's not,

[00:49:48] it's somehow different. Uh, I guess, guess, yeah. It's case by case. Case 

[00:49:52] Toliy: question by question, you know? Yeah. Think about this. How, um, how about this? If. If we just judged our parents and how they act and how they act towards others by not our interactions with them, but our friend's interactions with them, there's no way that that same person would be described that same way.

[00:50:11] Right. What do you mean? Like if, if like, the only thing that like, like you knew about my parents or I know about your parents or Mike's parents mm-hmm. Or whoever's parents was based on how they treat us or how they interact with us. Yeah. For example, it would be a complete, or like, in most cases I think it would be a very different point of view on that person for sure.

[00:50:35] Right? Yeah. Like, like your dad, for example, is extremely respectful. 

[00:50:41] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[00:50:41] Toliy: I don't know at all times, right? Yeah. With us, like I've, I've never had like any kind of thing. 

[00:50:47] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[00:50:47] Toliy: Like thi this is like a cordial, the nicest guy. Offer you whatever, do whatever. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Always says hello. That's true. Always shake, shakes, shake.

[00:50:56] This is what we know as the identity. Right? Right. Mm-hmm. So like if we were just operating off of that mm-hmm. Where's like, this person's like a, you know, a saint. Yeah. Yeah. But if, I mean, yeah, no, I agree. For example, but 

[00:51:08] Mike: if you had any interactions with him, you would see that 

[00:51:10] Eldar: obviously you have to have long enough interactions.

[00:51:12] You have to have a horse in a race with him, of course. And then you find out 

[00:51:15] Toliy: then, then you're talking about a very particular type of thing. But I think that like, um, if you're good at asking questions at, good at, at like, uh, communicating and conversing, I think that you can create like whatever type of environment that you want there to be.

[00:51:30] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[00:51:31] Toliy: But I think that, that, that, that's the hard part, um, for most people is to like. Foster the environment that like they want and to create the conversation that they actually want before it even happens. Yeah. Mm-hmm. You know? 

[00:51:44] Katherine: Yeah. Like I, I have zero clue. 

[00:51:47] Eldar: Well, good. How to do it. That's good that you're, what's his name?

[00:51:49] Uh mm-hmm. Saying that because at the end of the day, you're trying to be mindful, I think in order to create what just totally just said, which is hard to do, especially for people who are not mindful. But you'll have to practice that of, and you, you're gonna have to want that 

[00:52:02] Toliy: a, a very easy example that we've all like seen, well, I dunno if, if, if Kat has seen as much, but we, we, we definitely has any conversation around self-improvement that has to do with Tommy and Harris, for example.

[00:52:14] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:52:14] Toliy: Do we all know ahead of time before it happens? What's gonna happen? 

[00:52:17] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:52:19] Toliy: They're gonna get upset at each other. Yes. And frustrated. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like this happens every time. Mm-hmm. And we can see it like we know it's gonna happen. Oh, 

[00:52:28] Katherine: wait. Of, uh, a chat about self-development individually for them or together?

[00:52:32] Together. Together. Like when they, 

[00:52:33] Toliy: when, when they, when they converse. Yeah. Together about something that has to do with that really. It's usually something that like, like Harris has to improve upon or like he, he wants to improve upon. Okay. Once Tom Tommy gets involved in it. Chimes in. Yeah. Like there's like volcano, static, like Yeah.

[00:52:48] Static. Oh, right away. Okay. And everyone knows it's gonna happen. Everyone. Like, and, and we can predict that right now because we know how both people behave and what kind of conversation that they both like, are capable of, are, yeah. Are capable of, and the, and the environment that they're fostering. But 

[00:53:06] Katherine: Okay.

[00:53:06] Toliy: Maybe it could be like, good advice or maybe it could be something that could make sense. But for example, if Eldar told those things to either of them, that like if, if they just literally wrote a script for them as to like. What they wanna accomplish, maybe, or what they're trying to communicate or like say.

[00:53:24] Mm-hmm. But then he broke it down into like how he would wanna say it. There would be a totally different result. Why is that? If the relatively same things are being said, 

[00:53:35] Eldar: I'm good at what I do, babe. 

[00:53:36] Toliy: You know, because it's a different, you're, you're fostering a particular like, um, like bubble for that. Yeah.

[00:53:43] For, for that moment. And like, if, if you're good at what, what you do, you could do that with relatively any, like anybody. Mm-hmm. And like, you can make the most like, serious person, like have a funny conversation or maybe the most unserious person have a serious conversation. I 

[00:54:00] Katherine: think that, you know, I always say it like, elder's always like 10 steps ahead.

[00:54:05] It's like he's playing chess and I don't mean it like he's trying to, like, 

[00:54:11] Eldar: I'm just being mindful. Cut 

[00:54:12] Katherine: through. People, but like ELD is having a conversation and he's ahead. He can already see where this is going, how he wants to guide it. I can't, like, I, I, I am not there yet. You know, like I approach a conversation and I'm definitely not have, 

[00:54:27] Toliy: has, has everyone seen, seen that video?

[00:54:29] Like it's, it's like a famous video of that guy who's like, the guy's holding like a cone in, I don't know, in some foreign city. He's putting ice cream on it. Yeah. And he keeps like taking out his hand, taking out the cone. Yeah. Yeah. Like, this is what elder's doing in the conversation. Yes. And you're just saying, they're like, what the fuck?

[00:54:44] Eldar: Yeah. You know? Well, the only reason why I said I can do that is because I actually, um, put a lot of value on the fact that I, I do wanna understand what's going on. 

[00:54:53] Toliy: Yeah. Well that, and, and you don't like, for, for the most part, like, you don't live a life where you like, yeah. Are doing things to fry your mind and you actually have like a mental sharpness.

[00:55:05] Why you say that I'm drinking right now? Well, no, no. I'm saying though, like in, in general, like you don't every day participate in things that like, cause you like crazy stress or anxiety or like fry your mind to a level. Well, you're just saying that I'm 

[00:55:17] Eldar: interpreting the world a little bit better, 

[00:55:18] Toliy: maybe?

[00:55:19] Well, no, like the, like the habits you, you have and the subconscious behaviors that you have for the most part, don't contribute towards like your mind being fried. Okay. But like, if you take someone who's like, overstressed, overworked, like mm-hmm. Beat up like, I don't know, um, unhealthy, right? All that, like their mind is fried.

[00:55:39] So of course you could run circles for, for example, around like that person. 

[00:55:42] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:55:43] Toliy: Um, and, but yeah, 

[00:55:46] Eldar: so I think that the reason why I actually wanna understand these conversations because, um. Unlike Harris and Tommy who get into a battle or war in that conversation, and then they both feel guilty and they bring out all these negative emotions in themselves, in each other.

[00:56:03] Right. I actually realized or found ways that if I actually try to understand and be curious in conversation, those things will never come, come about. 

[00:56:11] Katherine: Hmm. 

[00:56:12] Eldar: So I make the choice, rather than somebody else makes the choice for me to take me place. So I guess to a degree, I'm also a control freak y. 

[00:56:20] Katherine: Yeah. But also that I'm not gonna allow you a level of like not taking things personal as well, you know?

[00:56:26] Yeah. Like if you're a person that takes things personal Sure. You know, that conversation is gonna go somewhere else because then it's gonna become emotional. Yeah. Instead of just like, 

[00:56:34] Toliy: yeah. 

[00:56:35] Katherine: Seeing objectively another, you know? Yeah. Objectively. Think 

[00:56:38] Toliy: about this. In what world can you beat up? Like if you're trying to tell someone something, okay.

[00:56:44] And someone's asking and that person is an intern asking you questions on the things that you're saying. You're, you're the one trying to tell them something. In what world can you be upset at them? Um, like how, how, how could that be possible? 

[00:57:01] Katherine: I mean, it's possible depending on how the person comes off.

[00:57:04] Toliy: The, the only way it would be possible is if you don't actually want to like, say what you're like trying to say to that person, right? Like, I didn't underst understand the question. Like, how can you be upset at the person asking you questions? Uh, so you, but you're the one telling, wanting to tell them something.

[00:57:21] Like, like if I'm like, um, think about it, what, what you're saying it's, it's a, it's a 

[00:57:25] Katherine: very specific, what you said. It's a very specific equation. Close-mindedness. 

[00:57:29] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. If you engaging somebody, dialogue and you're complaining about something, you, you don't have a right to be upset with the person, is that what you're saying?

[00:57:35] No, no, no. So you shouldn't be upset. Well, how, 

[00:57:38] Eldar: how 

[00:57:38] Mike: can you be 

[00:57:38] Eldar: upset if you are the person, right? Mm-hmm. His dad comes to him. Comes to him with some stuff, some information. Yeah. Wants to tell him something. Yeah. And then the person on the other side, which being him, his son starts asking questions around that.

[00:57:54] Mm-hmm. That phenomena that he wants to pass it on, right? Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Like naturally you would be like, oh, wow, this person is engaging. He's asking questions. Like, I want to tell him more because like, he's an active listener. 

[00:58:05] Toliy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like if you're, like, if, if, if, if I go to you and I'm like, Hey Mike, I wanna um, tell you some things about like the solar system, 

[00:58:14] Katherine: Uhhuh, 

[00:58:15] Toliy: and you start asking me questions like, well, what's a planet?

[00:58:18] What's like, you know, this? Or like, I coach talking about, what's the name? The solar panels. Like a solar system? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like what? Like if you start asking me questions about that kind of stuff. Mm-hmm. Because you're asking questions. Why? Because you wanna understand. Someone wants to tell you because they want to explain so that you do understand.

[00:58:36] Mm-hmm. So how can you get upset at somebody who's asking you questions mm-hmm. Based on what you want them to understand. Mm-hmm. And you want to explain them something? 

[00:58:46] Mike: Well, yeah, sure. I mean, I 

[00:58:47] Eldar: think, I think a person can get upset Yeah. Further down the line when they, when they get to the point of maybe question.

[00:58:54] Totally. If the person has like complaints or whatever and totally starts challenging those complaints. Of 

[00:58:58] Katherine: course it's a challenge. Challenge through questioning 

[00:58:59] Eldar: then. Yes. Yes. That person can potentially, yes, of course. Because what happens, that person probably came to you with an agenda. 

[00:59:05] Katherine: Mm-hmm. Right?

[00:59:06] Uhhuh with a specific agenda for you with your questions or keeping them from, you know, getting to it, getting to, to their thing. You're 

[00:59:12] Toliy: actually, well, well, I think by asking them questions, you're actually exposing their agenda. You're, you're, you're exposing it. But you might game also be, uh, you 

[00:59:20] Katherine: know, showing them that you know, that you disagree or, or that you might think otherwise.

[00:59:25] And that's, that's not their end game. Their end game was to unload on you, to dump whatever feeling it was. They just wanna manipulate you. You, 

[00:59:32] Eldar: this is how the podcast stop. The podcast we talked about. Everyone wants to brainwash each other and others into their own worldview 

[00:59:43] at all times. Yeah. I guess.

[00:59:48] And that's how it works. 

[00:59:49] You know what I mean? It be it positive, be it negative, be it whatever we're constantly sharing back and forth. Forth. Because people like to relate 

[00:59:56] Katherine: Yes. To 

[00:59:58] one another. Correct. So, so 

[00:59:58] Eldar: you want to be, you know, understood. Well that's, you wanna heard. Well that's why we have this. You want be supported.

[01:00:03] Right? Phenomenal. You want all those Yes. You want all those things. People, 

[01:00:06] Katherine: sorry. 

[01:00:07] Eldar: Go ahead. 

[01:00:08] Katherine: Uh, phenomenon. Are these people, people on the internet? Yeah. Um, siding with people they've never met or seen just because they have maybe like-minded, uh, you know, yeah. They're outspoken with likeminded buzz, buzzword minded, uh, you know, buzzwords.

[01:00:20] Yeah. Buzzwords. Yeah. 

[01:00:22] Eldar: Oh, you into mindfulness. Me too. I meditate every 10, every day for 10 minutes. 

[01:00:27] Katherine: Yeah. 

[01:00:28] Eldar: What the fuck are you talking about? 

[01:00:31] Katherine: But the first moment you get to like, hnk and be angry at like someone at a crosslight or whatever. Yeah. So like, yeah, it, 

[01:00:37] Eldar: well, a lot of times that's kind of the, the examples.

[01:00:40] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[01:00:41] Eldar: But yeah, I, so to be mindful, is it to actually wanting to un actually understand, have an actual curious mind to understand the world, how it works, understand yourself in this world and how you work in those relationships. Yeah. I mean, I think on, on all like cases, on like daily day cases, like every single day kind of thing, where it's like you really wanna.

[01:01:06] Keep an open mind and curious to keep learning about the world and yourself. 

[01:01:12] Toliy: Well, yeah. I feel like it's, it's the uncovering of what automations that you put in place mm-hmm. That are not, that's causing you suffering Yeah. That are not serving you. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And I feel like the uncovering of those things, um, is ultimately what removes the need to, like, want to go to that pantry to begin with for, for example.

[01:01:32] Or like, oh, there goes the answer.

[01:01:37] Yeah, that's good point. Yeah. That, yeah. Like that, like the, um, fi Yeah. Figuring out tho those things. But oftentimes you also like the subconscious self who's doing all those things. They'll also figure out ways to keep you away from, I guess, going into that bottle and figuring out what, what's going on to begin with.

[01:01:57] But if you have enough conscious moments and enough moments of like reflection and thought. I think it's impossible to, to do that for the long term because you can't consciously experience pain like that. Like you just can't.

[01:02:16] Eldar: So what he's saying is that you actually might be the only reason why, maybe if you can't understand yet why you're not reaching for the pain trip pantry so often as you used to. He's saying that you might be preoccupied with a little bit of curiosity in how to solve these things. And maybe just, maybe that is why you're not craving that stuff is because you actually want to fi find out what the hell is going on with me and why.

[01:02:40] Toliy: Yeah. Like if you have a commitment to, to, to see you can't unsee things, like that's like a permanent for everything. So if you're committed to finding, just finding out what's going on and finding out the, yeah, just finding thing things out. You will like have that forever in your mind. You can't just like say like, nah, I'm not gonna un find like, close this.

[01:03:03] Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah. Once you have that like desire, that bug to like, see, you can't close your eyes like that anymore. 

[01:03:14] Eldar: Is that what's happening to you? Is this organic mindfulness?

[01:03:21] Organic mindfulness? Well, maybe, 

[01:03:25] Katherine: I think, yeah. Would say the inorganic one is the one that 

[01:03:27] Eldar: people talk about, right? Yeah. Meditate. You gotta meditate every day for 10 minutes. Close your eyes. Be present. Be present. Right? We're not talking about that kind of mindfulness here. I would say that mindfulness would be dead as people know it.

[01:03:41] We're talking about a very specific set of actions, set of beliefs, set of perspectives that is gonna push you to be more curious about yourself, the state of the world, who you are and how you fit in. Mm-hmm. And if, and that's the state if taken seriously. It's impossible for you not to be mindful. It's impossible.

[01:04:00] That's what he's saying. 

[01:04:02] Katherine: I agree. 

[01:04:03] Eldar: You see that? 

[01:04:04] Katherine: Yeah. 

[01:04:06] Eldar: So you can write as many reminders as you want on your tablet, on your sticky notes. To be mindful every day. It's not gonna work. It is not the reminders. 

[01:04:16] Katherine: No, it's the actual action of being curious. It's, or having fun. 

[01:04:20] Eldar: Well, 

[01:04:21] Katherine: that will keep you open to, well, because what's the opposite of that?

[01:04:25] Like rigid. Like you think you know everything. Correct. But if you approach it as like, actually I know that I don't know. Yes. Or I don't know anything. 

[01:04:32] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:04:32] Katherine: It'll keep you curious asking questions. Correct. Mindful. 

[01:04:37] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:04:37] Katherine: And hopefully 

[01:04:38] Eldar: you're gonna want to find out on a happier 

[01:04:39] Katherine: path, right? Yeah. You're gonna wanna find 

[01:04:41] Eldar: out like, what the hell you know.

[01:04:42] Katherine: Yeah. 

[01:04:43] Eldar: Let me ask as many questions as possible in order to find out the truth of the matter. And within that state, it is impossible to be mindless pantry go-getter, 

[01:04:54] you 

[01:04:54] know? It's impossible. 

[01:04:56] Katherine: Pantry shopper. 

[01:04:57] Eldar: Yes. Pantry shopper. 

[01:04:59] It's just impossible. 

[01:05:01] Katherine: Hmm. 

[01:05:03] Eldar: But how do you get to that state? And, and when do you get to the state of curiosity with enough pain?

[01:05:10] Right. I guess you have to what they call rock bottom to hit that get to the point of like, ugh, enough pain. 

[01:05:16] Katherine: Yes. When you're like, enough is enough, 

[01:05:17] Eldar: enough is enough to finally start saying like, okay, what's, what's out there? Is there a light at the end of the tunnel? And let me follow and find out what's out there.

[01:05:26] And then one day, hopefully you can be mindful enough to be able to enter any type of conversation, however you want to enter it with whatever intention you have and get exactly what you want out of that conversation or out of the interaction. 

[01:05:42] Katherine: That's the goal. 

[01:05:43] Toliy: Yeah. I feel like over overall, um, we don't individually understand, um, like the level of arrogance that we have.

[01:05:54] Like in, in, in general. Mm-hmm. Which is why it's how about automatic Yeah. Arrogance. Yeah. Like what? Automatic Yeah. Arrogance. That's And as assumptions we have created. Yeah. Which is why, or our default is not to ask questions. To be or to, yeah. To be curious. 'cause how could you find out something that you already like, know about?

[01:06:16] Katherine: Right. If you think, you know. Yeah. Yeah. If 

[01:06:17] Toliy: you think you know something, why would you ever ask any questions? Like, 

[01:06:21] Katherine: yeah. 

[01:06:21] Toliy: Like, do you ask if like, okay, like hot water, let's just say is left and cold is right. Do you say like, do you ever like ask or like, look online? Hey, like, which way is this? Like, you, you already know that, right?

[01:06:32] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:06:32] Toliy: So if you, if you operate that way in life, then the act of being curiosity for that note, it all will be like pulling teeth. It'll be the most difficult 

[01:06:43] Katherine: mm-hmm. 

[01:06:44] Toliy: Like, um, event possible because it, it, it doesn't make sense. How can you be curious about. What you already know 

[01:06:51] Katherine: if you think you know so 

[01:06:52] Toliy: well.

[01:06:53] Yeah. So well, 

[01:06:54] Eldar: yeah. So did we solve mindfulness? Is there any questions around this? Take on mindfulness, babe. And be mindful. No, 

[01:07:02] Katherine: I think this, like, this, like this is, has been great. Like, I think I, I agree with, uh, the points that t has made 

[01:07:11] Eldar: going forward. Can you, and it's interesting how it go 

[01:07:13] Katherine: back to the, the funny curiosity.

[01:07:15] Remember we had a conversation about this last week. 

[01:07:17] Eldar: Yes. I think these things are all tied and we're talking about these things all time. Yeah. It's really all tied. How many 

[01:07:20] Toliy: times have we told people? Like, oh, just like, you just need to be more curious. Yeah. And those people like look at you like, 

[01:07:26] Eldar: what the fuck?

[01:07:27] Oh, I remember. Because Yeah. You like, you just have to ask more questions. What, yeah. I need 

[01:07:31] Toliy: a miracle. 

[01:07:31] Eldar: Cause 

[01:07:32] Toliy: I need a miracle. We're like, fell up. Remember? Like, just be like, you just have to be curious about this. Yeah. You know, like, yeah. They, they, they look at you like you have four eyes, you know, like, what are you talking about?

[01:07:42] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:07:45] So the question is this. How do you remind yourself the next time when you are in a mindless state? 

[01:07:51] Katherine: That is a good question. 

[01:07:53] Eldar: That the reason why you're here is most likely because you're an arrogant bastard and you're not asking or being curious. 

[01:08:00] Toliy: I mean that, that's impossible. Yeah, that's impossible.

[01:08:03] Eldar: Not when you're in a that state. So when is that moment? 

[01:08:07] Toliy: Yeah, mind mindless actions are like one is the moment what deserving of mindless results. You know? I agree with that. Like 

[01:08:12] Eldar: that's a T-shirt. 

[01:08:13] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:08:16] Eldar: That's a T-shirt.

[01:08:21] Mindless actions result on 

[01:08:25] mindless. Are deserving. Are deserving, 

[01:08:28] Toliy: yeah. Of mindless results. Results. Now I think that once you start to like think a little bit and you start doing that kind of stuff, sometimes those mindless results turn into actual like mindful results where you're just like, yeah, okay.

[01:08:42] Like, I don't know. Like you consistently. Eat too much or something. Right. And then you, you actually feel that like, oh, I feel terrible, you know, or like, this is bad. That's maybe glimpses of you, like starting to feel that, like the, the results of those mindful actions. But, um, oftentimes I think when people ask like, Hey, why am I feeling this way?

[01:09:05] Um, they say like, I ate too much. 

[01:09:09] Katherine: Hmm. 

[01:09:09] Toliy: And that's kind of where they stop. But it's not that they ate too much. It's like the reasons as to why this happened to be like, why they ate too much. They don't speak about the 

[01:09:15] Katherine: consequence, not why not use it? Why did they ate too 

[01:09:17] Toliy: much to begin with? Well, they're super stressed.

[01:09:19] Or like the, the operation that they have or like the way that they go about things is like super painful and like mm-hmm. The way that you engage in life is like really difficult for yourself. So because of that, you need to do this or you need to do that, like, these things will automatically happen as, as like, um, defense mechanisms like to like, um, preserve your.

[01:09:44] Eldar: Yeah. You know? Yeah. 

[01:09:45] Um, so what can others do to help those who are trying to be mindful? Um, for example, like, uh, if Catherine wants to be more mindful about a very specific thing, and then I'm there kind of like, okay, like what do I do in order to help her?

[01:10:03] Katherine: How can I help myself? There's like, 

[01:10:04] Mike: um, there's a process of like, uh, and I think maybe in, in, in general, like in all self-development, if you, if you're trying to, you know, you discovered something or you're discovering something, you started to, uh, acknowledge the pain. Usually it's through somebody else, right.

[01:10:20] Kind of like helping you out to like, you complain and you say, and they start asking questions and you start maybe changing your perspective. Mm-hmm. And, um, in the beginning stages, I guess, of that self development stuff. You need somebody else to bounce balance off of. Mm-hmm. So, you know, best, best you could do is to, you know, probably be more vocal.

[01:10:43] Me? No, no, Kat, to be more vocal now forget 

[01:10:45] Eldar: about her. She doesn't know she's blind, that she's sleeping. I think I know I, you guys, for example I know too. So we're asking, 

[01:10:53] Mike: so who's the question? 

[01:10:54] Eldar: What can you do? Yes. What can he do to help me? Okay. She wants to be mindful about something. Mm-hmm. But now she's sleepwalking again.

[01:11:00] Yeah. 

[01:11:01] Mike: What do I do? Oh, you have to probably call her out more 

[01:11:04] Toliy: Call. Yeah. I was gonna say, you, you have to piss her off. Mm-hmm. 

[01:11:07] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:11:07] Toliy: Because like in, in, in, in my use case, like, or, or in my testimony at least, like, usually like, I become more mindful when you guys, like, when I feel that like you guys are pissing me off about something.

[01:11:19] Yeah. Right. Then I start to think about what the fuck's going on here. It's okay, why am I, why am I getting this upset? Why am I feeling this way? Why is this going on? Like, yeah, why am I being laughed at? Or like, yeah, why are these guys pissing me off 

[01:11:29] Eldar: like today, 

[01:11:29] Toliy: right 

[01:11:30] Eldar: when we went to eat. 

[01:11:30] Toliy: Yeah. Fine. Yeah.

[01:11:32] Um, can you give us an example? We will once, one, once I feel that, that, that way that's when the seed is planted and eventually, like you'll continue to obviously piss me off because like that behavior is not changed or that way of thinking is not Yeah. Changed. But eventually it'll go into like from pissing me off to like, oh, okay.

[01:11:48] Like these guys are pointing out something that like is actually like. A good thing to think about or a good thing to like to change, consider or to change. So 

[01:11:54] Katherine: you guys are gonna become my enemies 

[01:11:55] Toliy: and then eventually mm-hmm. Yeah. Then, then eventually it, it leads to being more mindful about it. Correct.

[01:12:01] 'cause I don't wanna be pissed off, obviously, 

[01:12:04] Eldar: and it goes back to developing thicker skin. 

[01:12:06] Toliy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[01:12:07] Eldar: But the example that you wanted today, we were walking into the restaurant for lunch. Right. As we walk in and there's out, it's out like the outside. As before you walk in outside, they've put planters, beautiful flowers, and significant amount, I'll probably say like eight.

[01:12:22] Yeah. At least. Yeah. So when you walk by, you clearly notice them. Like, oh, this wasn't here. Now it's here. I obviously me who likes plants, right? You'll go, Hey guys, this is nice. And Mike goes, oh wow. You're right. This is nice. And totally goes, oh yeah, let's see if they continue to water them. Whoa. Okay. Wow.

[01:12:42] Okay. So he said that negative Nancy over here. Yeah. Let's see if they're gonna keep up with the 

[01:12:46] watering. Right. He 

[01:12:47] threw a little bit of dirt in those plants. Yeah. 

[01:12:49] Oh, he a little bit. Wow. Those plants are done. Mike said next week we go, they're dead. Oh yeah. That's another level because they're 

[01:12:58] my God.

[01:12:59] Yeah. So me and Mike were, I was like, Tony just put 

[01:13:01] the 

[01:13:01] eye on here. This fucking guy. You know, like, what the fuck? This is the guy that forgets to water, his plants forgets to do everything, you know, like his whole yard is fucking neglected. Oh. You know what I mean? It's very ironic. And he, it's 

[01:13:13] just very ironic.

[01:13:14] That's true. You go Right. I didn't even, I didn't even think about that part. 

[01:13:16] And me and Mike are like trolling him and laughing amongst each other. Like, look at this fucking guy. You know the nerve on this guy. And of course 

[01:13:21] you piss him off 

[01:13:22] and he doesn't even hear the conversation because like. It's not on his frequency, you know what I mean?

[01:13:26] He's on that frequency, me and my controlling him, and like he's sitting there hoping that the planners are gonna die. And every go to this restaurant, 

[01:13:31] Toliy: these motherfuckers ask me my name and my phone number. Like, yeah, we go there all the time. Like, you know, like how many times do you have to enter this show?

[01:13:37] So you, you would 

[01:13:37] Katherine: really prefer it if they remembered you. Yeah. So we obviously, you know, and totally 

[01:13:40] Eldar: be in the pest that he is. He understands what he just said. I was like, yeah, I gotta ask these guys, like, why are they laughing and is there something for me to learn here? And we told him, he's like, why?

[01:13:48] So I was being negative, wasn't I, you know, I'm like, yeah, a little bit negative, obviously, like, you know, like we're in, in like complimenting them and seeing how nice it looks and the first response is like, what you suffer from, you know what I mean? It's like, you know, like, yeah. 

[01:14:01] Katherine: See it exists in his world.

[01:14:02] Yes. It exists in his, in his life and in his mind, 

[01:14:05] Toliy: once it goes on my radar that like something is, it is, is happening for Yeah. Like I can't unsee that and I can't unfeel that now. Yeah. So like now I need to. Like, be pesty and ask, like, try try to ask some like questions. But I think to, to like, to do that, you obviously like, yeah.

[01:14:20] Like you have to share, like you have to converse and then like, 

[01:14:24] Katherine: yeah. 

[01:14:24] Toliy: You have to have thick skin because Yeah. You have to have thick, we're clearly making fun of him, you 

[01:14:27] Eldar: know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. The thick skin. So do you, does he get his panties in a bunch and starts to get upset at us? Or does he ask questions and he ask questions like, yo, all so let me in on this joke.

[01:14:36] You know what I mean? So we told him like, like, who the fuck you think you are? Well, 

[01:14:39] Katherine: it was a good turnaround to go from being No, he did really well. Yeah, that 100%. That's a very good way to handle 

[01:14:43] Eldar: it. The, the biggest turnaround is to make sure that he then reconditions his own mind that his auto responses and not, and not in that light.

[01:14:50] Yeah. You know what I mean? Because 

[01:14:51] Katherine: we don't always correct. Like he, he didn't catch it. No. Somebody else had to. That's right. Catch it and tell, tell him. 'cause it was such a negative, it 

[01:14:58] Eldar: was such a turn to me. I was like, why is this even happening? Like, why is he saying this? You know? Like, who the fuck this guy thinks he is, you know, trying to hold these people accountable.

[01:15:06] Well, he's the worst. 

[01:15:07] Joe, Joe Brioni from, you know, YouTube or whatever his name is, 

[01:15:10] the, the, yeah, the 

[01:15:12] garden guy, the gardener. 

[01:15:14] Yeah. So that's an example for you, right? Where if you are sleepwalking going about your business, right? An individual who c who's probably gonna be your enemy like myself, probably is gonna have to point certain things out.

[01:15:27] Right? Um, and there has to be a fight. 

[01:15:29] Toliy: Yeah. Like, think about it, like, you'll have to, you have to, you'll have to employ like your husband to piss you off. Yeah. And 

[01:15:37] Katherine: like, that's gonna be fun being 

[01:15:38] Toliy: okay with that. Most people are not okay to employ somebody. Yeah. To actually call them out until like, well, you have to be very, because 

[01:15:45] Eldar: first of all, you have to be very careful who you employ.

[01:15:48] Yeah. You know what I mean? Because you don't want to be taken advantage of, you know what I mean? For 

[01:15:51] Katherine: sure. 

[01:15:52] Eldar: Uh, if I'm given this opportunity to do so, like I, I wanna make sure that if I am, I'm always shooting in the right direction when it comes to like the truth. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? I don't wanna like be a tyrant, you know, and oppress somebody just because they like, they trust me or whatever, you know what I mean?

[01:16:09] So it has to be object. I I gotta make sure that that, which I'm. Employing is objectively true before I employ it on them. You know? 

[01:16:17] Mike: Yeah, 

[01:16:19] Katherine: yeah. Even, even like the support that you've given me, um, with what I've been dealing with recently with these, uh, you know, with, um, my relationships or friendships or whatever.

[01:16:27] Mm-hmm. Um, you know, I'm well aware that like you wouldn't have my back or, um, like in that situation if I was wrong or if you thought that Yeah. You know, I was coming from a wrong place. Yeah. You know, 

[01:16:39] Eldar: 100%. 

[01:16:40] Katherine: Um, so yeah, getting your support, you know, hopefully in those moments where I'm being mindless or arrogant, that like, I won't let, like my ego 

[01:16:50] Eldar: and you, you've been doing better.

[01:16:51] It'll happen. You've been slowly developing thicker skin 

[01:16:54] Toliy: and you've been doing better and, and, and to just like, go full circle as to like where we started in the beginning we were talking about like, what is mindfulness? Like what is mindfulness? Or how do you do do that? Like if we think, like, if, if we all think about in what situations like.

[01:17:11] Would you behave poorly or would you be aggy or like that? If you're in a rush, if you're, um, like if you don't plan things properly Yeah. If you're trying to do too much like all of those things Yeah. Is going like, if you do that, if you continue to participate in that, you like, all those things will happen.

[01:17:31] Like you, you will get aggy. Yeah. You will be upset. You will get aggy. Like it's guaranteed. 

[01:17:35] Katherine: Yeah. 

[01:17:36] Eldar: You know? Yeah. Like, so you, your, your bar or your radar should be like, oh, I'm Aggie right now, that means I'm wrong. Yes. Should be that Yes. Kind of thing. Like mm-hmm. I need to examine here. Obviously sometimes when we get aggy it's okay.

[01:17:47] Like we might be on the right side of, you know, the Yeah. Tell, I can tell you for for sure, but a lot of times you're not, you have to reexamine My goal is always 

[01:17:54] Katherine: wrong. Yeah. You know, you gotta examine it. An attachment to some stupidity. Mm-hmm. Or an expectation. Yes. Something like that. 

[01:18:01] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah.

[01:18:02] So that's why it should be a cue. 

[01:18:04] Katherine: I'm Aggie. What? Yeah, so 

[01:18:05] Toliy: like the, the, the, the, the lack of mindfulness, it's stemming from the, the arrogance of trying to do things that are not supposed to be done or are not meant to be done in that kind of kind of way. So it's like, well, 

[01:18:18] Katherine: thinking that, you know, yeah.

[01:18:19] Toliy: Like, like if, if, if, for example, I leave the house frustrated and like, oh, like I had to rush through this or this and this, and like mm-hmm. Now I feel this kind of way, like I set myself up to do that because like you're trying to do, I don't know, 20 tasks when you're supposed to do 10, for example.

[01:18:35] Katherine: Mm-hmm. Or 

[01:18:36] Toliy: you're trying to like, you know, you're not properly planning things, you're not like allotting the right amount of time. Yeah. And like for, for, for me, like for example in my morning, like, um, routine, like, I like it when I have like an overly exaggerated amount of time to do whatever I want.

[01:18:52] Exactly. There there's no pressure to like go like, um. Do everything quickly, like get out the house fast. Like, yeah. You know, just like zoom out. But if you wake up like, I don't know, 30 minutes, for example, before you need to leave, then like, you're gonna be like a hurricane for, for example. Yeah. Trying to like do things and go in and out and like, you know, um, do, do things too fast, which will lead to, like, no one can be mindful when they're in a rush, for example.

[01:19:20] Katherine: Yeah. Thousand percent. How can you be mindful? Yeah. I, I did, I I go through that a lot. 

[01:19:25] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. So like a, allowing yourself to do those kinds of things and setting you, setting you, you, you can set yourself up for success by, so 

[01:19:33] Katherine: would you say that mindfulness is slowing down? 

[01:19:36] Toliy: It, it's, it's not even like slowing down.

[01:19:40] Um, because I think that, like, slowing down means that, like, you, you almost have to do things in like, I don't know, like some like weird way or something. Well, not rushing. I just feel like it, it's doing things the right way. Like, it's like, like it's not fast or slow. It's like, like it's just right. You know, 

[01:19:56] Eldar: I think mindfulness has to be where you are aware that there's, uh, you are aware of your pain and you're so aware that you are attentive enough to the moment in order to navigate the moment itself to avoid pain.

[01:20:09] But in order to do that, you have to zoom in on the moment. But a lot of times when you buzzing around rushing, you have a lot of moments going on at the same time, not just one. Right. If you take one thing at a time and really pay attention, you'll make sure that you come out of that moment without getting hurt, and that is you being mindful of making sure that you don't get pain out of the experience that you are having in that moment.

[01:20:39] Toliy: Yeah. It's like the, the, the way that your life probably is, it's like you're looking at like the. A, um, a, um, map of the country versus being in one country. In one state. In one city, in one place. One town, yeah. One street. Yeah. Yeah. One town. You're all the way zoomed out thinking and looking at, at everything.

[01:20:58] Mm-hmm. And you can't see anything. Yeah. You can't see the trees, you can't see like the house that's, there's a lot of 

[01:21:04] Eldar: pain that's just swirling around in your mind, and it's all hitting you, but you don't know what to do with it. So the, the best thing you do is self-preservation, which is autonomous.

[01:21:11] Quick little thing. You reach for the pantry and some sugar. Self-preservation. 

[01:21:16] Toliy: Yeah. Like, you, you don't need to understand anything to do that, which just why, like those automatic behaviors, they very easily like clinging onto you because like, you don't need to understand anything. Like you would just mm-hmm.

[01:21:29] You do something and you feel good. You're not trying to solve it, you're just trying to escape it. Like, there's not, there's not much to get here, you know? 

[01:21:36] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:21:37] Toliy: It's also why like drugs could be, for example, like an escape for certain people. Mm-hmm. Because like they don't have to actually solve anything that's like, they just do the drugs and that's it.

[01:21:45] Eldar: That's right. 

[01:21:46] Toliy: You know? 

[01:21:47] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:21:47] Toliy: There's no like, figuring things out or going to therapy or like, you know, understanding how things work or all that. Like, 

[01:21:55] Eldar: they like avoid all that. Yeah. 

[01:22:00] So, yeah. So the que the, the only one thing is that, you know, you just want to avoid pain, do you, obviously, right? Mm-hmm. I think everybody, if you survey the whole world, like do you wanna avoid pain?

[01:22:10] Yeah. And, uh, get pleasure. Yeah. That's obvious. But that's not the actual case. If you did, I think you would do a very mindful job. Like I said, add zooming in at every moment in your life. And like you said, I want to be mindful every time when I'm going on the walk with my dogs, when I'm talking to my mom, when I'm talking to me, when I'm watching a show, I want to be mindful and present.

[01:22:35] Toliy: Yeah, like the, the, the very interesting part is that like if, like if you think about the before and after you of like, like in anything that you wanted to do, like the, before you of like desiring to do something, then once you actually start doing something, I bet you, you did not feel that like, this is how it's going to be.

[01:22:53] Or like, this is what it like, would've taken to, to, to like do it. Like you, you can't like, uh, um, not that you can't track back like your steps exactly, but it's not, it, it, it, like, it, it doesn't feel how it, like it felt it was going to be before you did it. Right. Hmm. Okay. Like, it's like a weird like, uh, paradigm thing where it's like, would you say it's like, um, like a time machine?

[01:23:17] Yeah, 

[01:23:18] Eldar: yeah, yeah. It's like you can't track it. You can't see the progress, but it happened. 

[01:23:22] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like, like it, like when someone points it out, like, oh, like you change, like you really do this different and you're like. Do things differently, you know? Well, like you 

[01:23:31] Eldar: had to reflect, remember?

[01:23:33] Mm-hmm. You said to me like, we were walking Yeah. Last week or something and I was like telling him something and I'm like, you're doing this, this, that. And like, he's like, yeah. Oh yeah. They're like, you told me some stuff and I realized that I don't reflect on some of the changes that are, are actually part of my life.

[01:23:44] Yeah. And up until that day when he said, I actually sat down and I thought about some of these things, and I'm like, I'm proud of myself. Yeah. I'm good here. Yeah. I'm good there. Mm-hmm. I'm doing this well, I'm improving here. Mm-hmm. This is what he's talking about. Yeah. Think about we fast forwarded, 

[01:23:56] Katherine: therapist does this all the time.

[01:23:57] Mm-hmm. And I'm like, oh, oh yeah, that's right. 

[01:24:00] Mike: There you go. 

[01:24:00] Katherine: Yeah. Because we don't, we don't sit there and analyze it. But I think some of that, 

[01:24:04] Mike: that's me by, by design. Is that how it is supposed to be? I think so. 

[01:24:08] Toliy: I I think it's because you're no longer that person. Yeah. You're, you're, you're no longer like that.

[01:24:14] Like that, that person that was thinking that kind of like way, and you have new information and you have new perspective and you have new thoughts, new habits. So you almost can't, like, you can't understand like. Who that was or how, how that even, there's no relationship 

[01:24:28] Eldar: anymore. There's no, you can't relate to that.

[01:24:30] Katherine: Mm. 

[01:24:30] Eldar: Yeah. So, yeah. So this new individual has to almost adjust. 

[01:24:34] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[01:24:35] Eldar: Yeah. And kind of mm-hmm. Recollect almost, or remember a little bit over the past self, like, oh yeah, I did used to do that, but like, you can't even, like, can, you can't touch it. 

[01:24:43] Katherine: But it's, it's, it's good. Its good to see, um, your growth, because I feel like that boosts your confidence a little and like, okay, yeah, I wasn't, well, no, 

[01:24:51] Eldar: I think the con, not, 

[01:24:52] Katherine: not in a bad way, but you know, like sometimes you, you know, you felt like crap or you were not doing so well, your self-esteem was on the floor for whatever reason.

[01:25:00] Yeah. Like, actually, you know what? I am doing a little bit better. That does feel good. And the thing is, it, it boosts your self confidence because you did the work, right? Someone could, you know, tell you, Hey, X, Y, Z, but you gotta put it in place in order to. The change. Right? So it gives you a little bit of self-confidence, like, okay, maybe for the 

[01:25:17] Eldar: moment.

[01:25:17] I think real confidence, if we really digest it, I think comes from actual knowledge and really a real conviction behind what it is that you, you know, you know what I mean? Where it's like, I know this by, because I studied it 10,000 hours because now I can regurgitate and teach you how to do it, and I'm doing it too.

[01:25:35] So I'm showing it to you through my actions as well. And the results that I'm getting are good. I think. Yeah, that is true. Confidence. 

[01:25:42] Katherine: Well, that's like building trust in yourself. Don't you think that it, it like it correlates to like confidence in yourself? 

[01:25:48] Eldar: I, I'm not sure if it's just building trust, right?

[01:25:51] I think I, I laid out a very specific map. Yeah. Because 

[01:25:53] Toliy: I feel like trust has, yeah, it's trust is not, it's the yoga, 10 

[01:25:56] Eldar: minutes yoga. 

[01:25:56] Toliy: Yeah. Like trust is not like a mathematical equation. So I think by like saying trust, like you're s dripping away actual concrete steps and work Yeah. Of like that. I'm behind it.

[01:26:08] I think it's like what I'm saying is 

[01:26:09] Eldar: this, 

[01:26:10] Toliy: what I'm 

[01:26:10] Eldar: saying is this. Before you started jewelry class and created that ring? Mm-hmm. You came in there like a naked chipmunk. What? I don't know. I wanted to come up with something, but Yeah. I saw you a naked. I was like, I was like, get a naked animal, naked chicken.

[01:26:31] You know what I mean? Right. Featherless. You have no feathers, nothing. You're like, uh uh. What's this? What's this machine? What's that machine? What's this? What's this? What's this? Whatever. Right? Mm-hmm. Let's just say fast forward. Now you finished the class and you made the ring, and you can replicate this ring a hundred times.

[01:26:46] Katherine: I'm wearing them right now, by the way. There you 

[01:26:48] Eldar: go. You're wearing some rings. Right? With 

[01:26:49] Katherine: pride too. And let's just say 

[01:26:50] Eldar: you only did two. Okay, fine. Yeah. But let me fast forward to you and say that you did a hundred. I'm pretty sure that when you get to the 101, a lot of stuff is automated. I know this machine, I know this lever.

[01:27:01] I know this. I know this chisel. I know that chisel, I know this metal that when the ring comes out, it's not by chance that it came out. It came out from automated steps already in your brain. Mm-hmm. It's calculated. It's calculated, but it's already automated to a degree where like, I know I can make this ring, like you almost got a cockiness about it.

[01:27:19] Like whatcha talking about? Of course I can make a round gold ring. I've done it a hundred times. That's where confidence comes from. Actual knowledge coupled with practice, repetitive repetitiveness for a long time. I think that's 

[01:27:32] Katherine: exactly what I'm saying. I think, you know, 

[01:27:36] Toliy: well, no, but I think that like if I'm, you're bringing in like acknowledging it and like, like, like in doing that, trusting it, but in order, trusting it.

[01:27:43] Yeah. To like fuel your, to get where I am 

[01:27:46] Katherine: today. You know, it took that step. I went to therapy, we started breaking things down. I was given tools to do, I started putting in an action. I, I repeated them. That I, I feel like that's exactly what I'm saying. Maybe I'm just not saying. No, I think, I think you was, 

[01:28:01] Mike: I, I, I, I haven't like a, like a rock climbing example, but without the 

[01:28:05] Katherine: repetition or the action.

[01:28:07] There is no result. Like I wouldn't have, there's no growth, you know? No, that's 

[01:28:11] Toliy: DD different. Like the re the repetition I think is different. It's like a, it's like a, like the confidence I think hap like, happens from, it's like, uh, I think it's by, by explain. I don't remember where, where, where, where it was from.

[01:28:24] Exactly. But it's like, like what's understood doesn't need to be explained. So like, don't, might just like to say that. Yeah. Like you don't need to explain to yourself what you understand this is, and your confidence stems from, from there. Our rock climbing, you don't need to convince yourself of that.

[01:28:37] Like, you don't have to say there's no trust. Okay. 

[01:28:39] Eldar: We're trusting ourselves that we can do this ring before we go. No, you, I know that. You know that. Like, no, but I think when you guys are saying it might be, well, Mike asked me like, Hey, center this image on Photoshop. Like, I'm not gonna go and say what?

[01:28:50] Alright. I try, I do trust myself here. Well, I hope that if I align this correctly, it be in the middle. Mike will accept me. Yeah. 

[01:28:56] Mike: I fucking do it. And that's it. Yeah. Like, you know. I think maybe, maybe like my rock climbing example. I am gonna, I think, I think I told this to you, but mm-hmm. Uh, there's this climb.

[01:29:08] Mm-hmm. Um, it requires the black one. Yeah. The one with the jump. Okay. Okay. 

[01:29:14] Eldar: Okay. 

[01:29:15] Mike: It requires specific movement. You don't, like, you guys guys don't need to specifically know it, but there's certain movement, right? Mm-hmm. It's about, it's like three steps and two grabs of the hand. Okay? Mm-hmm. And it took me a hundred tries, at least to get it.

[01:29:28] Oh, listen to this. This is a good example actually. Yes. It took me at least a hundred tries to get it. Okay. And the way I was doing it, literally, literally, no, actually maybe even more. Yeah. You know, it took me a hundred plus tries probably to get it. And 

[01:29:40] Eldar: Job is listening right now live. Yes. Because we connected him to a computer finally.

[01:29:44] Yes. Uh, he can relate to this because he went rock climbing as well. He knows what it means to try a hundred times. 

[01:29:49] Mike: Yes. Go ahead. Sorry. So I tried it a hundred times. Mm-hmm. The first time, uh, just taking the step was very scary. You know, so it took me 20 tries to do the step, finally landed the step, and then I jump off the wall.

[01:30:02] I don't want to touch it. Mm-hmm. Don't have nothing to do with it. Right. Then stage two, I can jump on the wall, but I, my hands can't react to us enough. Okay. Mm-hmm. And every, like, let's just say there's six, seven stages and every stage I'm adding more stuff. Okay. And, um, and every time I'm adding it, I'm having a conscious conversation with myself.

[01:30:20] Like, okay, now I do this, I go with both feet and land this foot. Mm-hmm. And land this hand and land this hand. Okay, now I need to add this. So every time I'm adding, adding, adding. Right. And it took me a hundred tries to finally get there and I did it. And now all the up next attempts when I'm doing them now, I don't even think about anything.

[01:30:40] I don't say, oh, I have to do this. I just grab the shit. And I was like, okay, next. And it's like, I could do my eyes closed, almost like type level. 

[01:30:47] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:30:47] Mike: Because I realized actually there's no steps that like mm-hmm. 

[01:30:53] Eldar: It's 

[01:30:53] Mike: so, so much less complicated than. Then I made it, 

[01:30:57] Eldar: yeah. 

[01:30:57] Mike: In my own head, because of many factors that are like, uh, in, in, in play is lack of the self-confidence, lack of the belief in yourself.

[01:31:06] Mm-hmm. But once you get it, and like for me this time, this one I got, I got it extra because I understood that the reason that like, um, I wasn't getting it is because I wasn't allowing myself to get it. Mm-hmm. I was overthinking the actual steps that needed to be done instead of just doing them. 

[01:31:24] Eldar: Mm-hmm.

[01:31:25] Mike: So maybe it could have taken me five tries on the next time this something like this comes around. 

[01:31:29] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:31:29] Mike: Instead of the a hundred, which is more probably reasonable mm-hmm. You know, to complete it. But, or what that kind of like, uh, that realization told me that, hey, I'm only like limiting myself because of what I'm thinking.

[01:31:42] Mm-hmm. Right. But, but now because I did that mm-hmm. Now because I do it on autopilot, the next time I might do it again on autopilot, on a different climb. Or it may take me only five. That's the breakthrough. That's the breakthrough. Yeah. The breakthrough is, and I think that's what you guys are saying is you guys are telling her kind of like, Hey, the forward, what's gonna happen?

[01:32:03] Mm-hmm. But I need to do that climb a hundred times. Mm-hmm. And on 20 different routes. Yes. To finally to say, oh, I'm going blind. I don't need to, bro. Yeah. If you put me on there, 

[01:32:13] Eldar: yeah. I can do it If 

[01:32:14] Mike: I, if I wasn't so scared. Yeah. But psych, like right now, I believe myself, I could do it blind. 

[01:32:18] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:32:18] Mike: You see?

[01:32:18] 'cause I know I'm not thinking about the steps. Go. Yeah. And I think that's the whole thing about like, let's just say in the philosophy thing that we're trying to discuss is the same blind way you go to that cabinet, right? Mm-hmm. You like to develop the same blind way. To do confidence in your life. The good behavior.

[01:32:36] Yeah. That's good for you. That's the truth. That's the right, yeah, of course. Yeah. So, and that it's not gonna just go, you're not gonna go one day Yes. From like a hundred attempts to make that climb. Correct. To making a one attempt to do it. 

[01:32:48] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:32:48] Mike: Next time you do, you might do it in 80, next time you do it in 50.

[01:32:52] Mm-hmm. Next time you may do it in 60. Yeah. But when you finally get to that point 

[01:32:56] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:32:56] Mike: That now you are on the other side. Yeah. Now you're just a one shotter, 

[01:33:00] Eldar: you know? That's it. That's it. 

[01:33:01] Mike: Because even stuff we started, when we first started climbing level one, two, and three, we're still learning. Mm-hmm.

[01:33:06] Now we see routes differently, right? Yeah. We're like, okay, like this, this, this. We go. Mm-hmm. 

[01:33:10] Katherine: And 

[01:33:10] Mike: I think, you know, like I've been thinking about a lot about the rock climbing and, and life and the com, like how they're so related. Mm-hmm. Because it's such a mental thing, and I'm seeing that like the rock climbing, it's not really rock climbing, it's mental climbing, you know?

[01:33:25] Mm-hmm. Well, 100%. Yeah, 100%. And you learn so much about myself, like I just learned about myself that. I was not doing that climb. It took me so many times because I was overthinking it instead of just doing it. Yeah. You know, because I didn't believe that I could do it. Yeah. I was telling myself, and then now I can do it.

[01:33:42] Like eyes closed. That's right. To say that. That's right. What's changed? It's ridiculous. Nothing. 

[01:33:46] Toliy: So, so then is the most mindful person not mindful at all? 

[01:33:49] Eldar: Yeah. Sounds like it. That's interesting. Well, that's, yeah. That's like, I 

[01:33:53] Katherine: always feel like that's you. 

[01:33:54] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:33:55] Katherine: You're, you're not thinking about anything.

[01:33:57] It's easy. You're just easily going through life without, you know. 

[01:34:01] Toliy: Well, because I had the practice, these 

[01:34:02] Katherine: expectations and you all this stuff that, you know, while, 

[01:34:06] Toliy: while watching gardening, um, Chicago drill rep and, uh, MMA and uh, orange cows. Yes. Yeah. 

[01:34:15] Eldar: Yes. But I have enough practice because I also have unlocked that thing that might have unlocked for himself.

[01:34:20] I still like, he's like, oh, I wanna be able to do that all the time. I don't want to go back to the negative self-talk on every fucking rock, every route that I go on. Like Yeah. And you can't unsee that. Yes. You can't unthink that desire. Now he can't unthink that desire. You see, now he has it in him.

[01:34:33] You're now hes like, and now he's gonna be searching for it to go back down to get off the wall and start like kicking himself. Like he used to be like, 

[01:34:38] Katherine: yeah. You know what I mean? Like you don't have time for that. No, no. 

[01:34:41] Mike: He can't unsee that. But I unlocked it. And I think that's part of like Correct. We're like, you are, let's just say, or we all have different areas where we have this thing Right now, you're a hundred percent on.

[01:34:53] Um, on like the eyes close to the bad behavior towards yourself, right? Yeah. And as you get closer to the middle, you get closer to the opposite side where you eyes are close to the good behavior, I guess, you know, that is, you're no longer doing the bad now, you're just doing the good for yourself. And I think it, it is take time.

[01:35:10] So kind of to like, kind of to address what Ka was saying. Like you guys were kind of telling her like, Hey, it's, we're trying to figure out, it's, it's not trust. Mm-hmm. It's not confidence, but it's like. Well, we just didn't want to use buzzwords. No. 

[01:35:25] Eldar: Yeah, no. Right. To be able to explain a very, maybe I would say, I don't know if it's scientific or not, but like very specific steps in order to get there because 

[01:35:33] Toliy: it definitely is, it definitely isn't.

[01:35:34] I, I, I feel like trust strips your ability to replicate things and to understand like Correct. Why things are happening. We've said that trust is dead, right? Yes. Because like I don't 

[01:35:42] Eldar: want you to just trust me Mike, like, you know what I mean? I want you to go through it, understand it. Oh, I remember that.

[01:35:47] And really have the knowledge base in order to say I don't need to trust anyone. Like I can trust myself and I know this. It's not trust. 

[01:35:52] Mike: Now I just know that I can do it. Correct. Because I proved to myself Correct. By being present. Like Correct. When I went up to those climb Kat, I don't know how they can attest to this.

[01:36:00] Yeah. I mean he doesn't have to, but 'cause I know it's the truth. Yeah. I went up there a hundred times, Kat, not ones that I come down and be like, yo. You can't do this, you'll loser this hard. Or be like, oh, you suck. Or bad attitude. I already don't. Like, I used to do 

[01:36:12] Eldar: that before date day, you know, 20 or 30 when we just started, he wouldn't even look at that thing.

[01:36:18] He wouldn't even come to it and try it because he'd be too scared or he'd be negative self talking himself out of it because like, I'm not confident at all. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Now he's like, he's like, I eradicated myself from some of this 

[01:36:29] Mike: stuff and every time I failed, I jumped right back off.

[01:36:32] Like there was no like, yeah. Oh, it was like you mindset have changed. Like maybe the process was not like the best, but it got me where I had to say, okay, first I took step one. I made one step that then, then that took me 20 tries. Then I did two steps. That's 20 more tries, but. Because I went through that.

[01:36:53] Now I know it's actually, I decide how many tries based on my state of mind. 

[01:36:57] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:36:58] Mike: Obviously I'm not gonna be able to jump a fucking 20 foot gap, but Yeah. Within reason, right? Mm-hmm. But I 

[01:37:03] Eldar: think that what happens to you then, right? Uh, when you remove the noise, the negative self-talk mm-hmm. The doubt and all this other stuff, right?

[01:37:10] What you become, you become a little bit more clear about the equation that does work for you. 

[01:37:14] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[01:37:14] Eldar: And you focus on that equation. For example, one, right? Maybe you had really bad sleep that day and you're really not strong. You don't feel like the muscles or the body's not gonna be working. Yeah. So you kind of more realistic in your expectations of yourself in that moment.

[01:37:28] But if the sleep is, the sleep is working, the body's feeling good, you, you know, you slept well, you know, and all the variables are kind of clicking. Mm-hmm. Then you can kind of expect from yourself, like, yeah, we got this. We can push, we can push ourselves a little bit percent. And then you have those moments, those days where you like, you killed that one.

[01:37:46] You killed that one. You killed that one. Yeah. It's because the equation worked and you. Yeah. And you got the results. Mm-hmm. You know, and like it was undeniable. Yeah. I mean, I was like smiling. I was like, wow, you, like, you're really killing it today. 

[01:37:58] Mike: Yeah. You know what I mean? And I, and I think the next day I came off the, I came to you and I said, yo, I realized that I was not happy.

[01:38:04] I wasn't as happy as the fact that I completed the rock climbing. Mm-hmm. Like completing that route. Yeah. I was more happy that the way I behaved towards myself during the process of it. There you go. I treated myself. Right. That's right. And I think that's why I succeeded, because I was resilient as hell.

[01:38:18] Correct. But never did I say like, ah, I never doubted myself that I could do it, even though my natural shit is like, yo. 

[01:38:24] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:38:24] Mike: Ah, fuck, ah, fuck. And I went up there ca back like 20 times in a row. That's amazing. I was breaking a sweat like crazy. Which usually rock climbing is Yeah. Not always. Yeah. But I kept going, going, going.

[01:38:34] And nobody was there. Yeah. So there was no line. And that was the big success was the, yeah. And 

[01:38:39] Katherine: just everything clicked for you yesterday. Yes, it was. It was just meant to, 

[01:38:43] Mike: yeah. Yes. Meant for you. And the thing is that resilience is built by. Persevering. Persevering. Yeah. And I think that, and that unlocked the perseverance, and then it unlocked the ability to do this climb blindfolded.

[01:38:56] Believing that, yeah. I don't trust it. I believe it. Yeah. You know, because I, I unlock something within myself. 

[01:39:02] Eldar: There you go. That's a good 

[01:39:03] Mike: point. You know, that I know. Is this, 

[01:39:05] Eldar: is it? I don't trust it. I believe it. 

[01:39:09] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Because I've done it enough times with the right attitude, like Yeah. If you do so, and like, again, you, the, the bad behavior, we've done it enough times that we don't think about it.

[01:39:19] Mm-hmm. You don't think, oh, I'm Chad, I'm in pain. Let me go to the pantry. No, you say, let this all popped up. Boom. I'm going there, drink, smoke, eat. I don't know, gamble. Whatever advices that anybody has, they're ready from many years of autopiloting. So now the, the, the way to do it is to un autopilot it.

[01:39:42] Then put it back on autopilot. But other way, you know, you don't want to have like a philosophical conversation every time. You have to have like a decision to make. Um, that's very small. You wanna learn to be, to know how to handle the situations. Right. You know? And that takes time, you know, to Yeah. Go from one, it's basically from one opposite to another.

[01:40:04] Yeah. You know? 

[01:40:06] Eldar: So one thing that I think I can do is probably promote more pain. Yeah. And that, that's what I thought about. I'd have to keep the, the, the, uh, the doors to the pantry open. 

[01:40:15] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. I, I think that eat more. I think, 

[01:40:18] Toliy: um, no, you, you, you gotta start. You, you gotta start buying, uh, sweets. Sweets.

[01:40:23] Yeah. 

[01:40:24] Eldar: Yeah. Oh, check this. Uh, creme brulee. Look at this. Yeah. Yeah. Leave it all out like little traps everywhere. You know what I mean? 

[01:40:32] Toliy: Mm-hmm. Arrows pointing to it. Yeah. Do it. 

[01:40:35] Mike: Yeah. I think that's, that's probably the, the best. Yeah. Like, oh, I gotta have fun. No, no, I'm not saying that, but I'm saying. Uh, the best thing that you, like, you guys s saying about the thick skin.

[01:40:46] Mm-hmm. But the best thing is like, I remember when I was like, we're walking with you guys, like, uh, you know, back in the old office mm-hmm. We're having a conversation and I felt like I, what I, my goal right now mm-hmm. Is to be as stupid as possible. Mm-hmm. And be, and make sure to say everything. 

[01:41:06] Eldar: Yeah.

[01:41:06] Mike: That's stupid. That's in my head. 

[01:41:08] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:41:08] Mike: So that I can be disproved on my own stupidities. Yeah. Because I believe in them. Mm-hmm. So every thought that came into my head, I was like, yo, I gotta make sure to share with you guys. Yeah. Every idea that I had that I thought was good or, and any thought that I was thinking about doing or saying I felt like I needed to share because I knew I I wasn't qualified.

[01:41:24] Yeah. Like to, yeah. Um, check myself or, you know, you didn't wanna play hide and seek anymore. Yeah. I didn't wanna play hide and seek anymore, but I knew that I wasn't qualified to order myself. Mm-hmm. That's what I wanted to say. Yeah. And I think the faster you realize that Yeah. And then you behave that way by just saying all the crazy reckless shit that's in your head.

[01:41:41] Yeah. Because we all have those thoughts, you know, at times we have you ridiculous stuff. Ideas. Yeah. The more you bring that out, the more painful it'll get, but the faster it'll get you to where you want to be. That's right. You know? 

[01:41:52] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:41:54] Mike: Because so enough of hide and seek, babe. Yeah. 

[01:41:57] Toliy: Yeah. I feel like the, the act of of sharing is like, like a new, uh, phenomenon, but it's a much like a ne needed one because like, you need to get like the, um, like you, you can't be like the, uh, like, like you're, you're, you're almost like your current reality can't just depend on like, like yourself, like anymore.

[01:42:18] I feel like you, you need like a, uh, to like. By you sharing, you, you, you bring in other perspective and like, um, a, uh, like you attract like someone to like challenge you. Yeah. 

[01:42:31] Eldar: Yeah. I think 

[01:42:32] Toliy: by that happening summon. Summon. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like some summ and someone to challenge you. 

[01:42:36] Eldar: You've been doing that and I've noticed that she's been doing that a lot more.

[01:42:40] Yeah. That she's like, Hey, what do you think about this? This is what I, this is what I'm, you know, overthinking or whatever, you know? Mm-hmm. And then at that moment I know that she's allowing me to hit her over the head. Yeah. You know, so she can calm down or whatever. Mm-hmm. And enough, you know, is enough for that moment.

[01:42:53] Katherine: Yeah. 

[01:42:54] Eldar: You know, so yeah. She's been doing that too. But obviously there's a lot more to be gotten. 

[01:42:58] Katherine: There's a lot. 

[01:43:00] Eldar: So more 

[01:43:00] Mike: girls up in that 

[01:43:01] Eldar: house. There's some more girls up 

[01:43:02] in that house. Criminal 

[01:43:03] Katherine: mind. 

[01:43:04] Eldar: Yes. 

[01:43:05] Toliy: Criminal mind. Criminal 

[01:43:05] Eldar: mind is a stupid mind. That's right. 

[01:43:07] Toliy: 1, 1, 1 concept I think is a little bit of like a funny reality when, when you get to things, like there's probably things that like you don't share, you don't think to share because like.

[01:43:18] You view them as like a bit trivial or like 

[01:43:21] Katherine: trivial? Yes. You almost, 

[01:43:21] Toliy: you, you almost like arrogantly feel like there can't be much to this. Yes. So I'm gonna say it to begin with. Yeah, yeah. But once you do share it, like you open up the can of worms that there's so much to that, that thing. Yeah. But you thought that like, it's basic, like, it's not even like important to you to, to even say.

[01:43:39] Mm-hmm. But like, like that's also why like the person who's like investigative and is asking the questions, they're asking a lot of questions and going into depth in a lot of things because they understand the value of, uh, of doing that. Yes. That like, it's, it's the cliche line that it's in the details.

[01:43:53] Yeah. That like, the people who like don't understand or don't, don't have it, don't value. Like they don't value the little details. They don't value like what's viewed upon as like the little things trivial. I just try to trivial things. Yeah. I just 

[01:44:06] Mike: had a like, um, a si similar I think situation. I had a client, um, like, um, call.

[01:44:16] And she was like, oh, there was a problem. What? Basically what happened was the driver put in like one main street instead of one main avenue, and he went to completely wrong address. Hmm, okay. 

[01:44:26] Eldar: Yeah. In a completely different 

[01:44:27] Mike: town, 30 minutes away. And I said, and we were having the conversation, I was like, yeah.

[01:44:30] The smallest thing. Street and avenue. Yeah. Caused the biggest ripple. 

[01:44:34] Eldar: Yeah. You know? Yeah. 

[01:44:35] Mike: And I think that's basically a lot of it is like, what you're saying is you may think it's small. Yeah. To you it's small, but mm-hmm. Really, it's, it's, it's huge. Iceberg. Iceberg. Iceberg. That's an ice. Ice. Yeah. Iceberg mike.

[01:44:46] Yes. Iceberg. Formally 

[01:44:48] Eldar: or no. Remember 

[01:44:49] Katherine: tip 

[01:44:49] Eldar: of iceberg? No. Yeah. You definitely not. You're definitely peeking a little bit 

[01:44:51] Mike: more Yeah. Outta that water. Yeah. Yeah. So, so yeah. That, that, that's like it is in your own head. You don't think it's that serious. Yeah. Because of what you think is normal and acceptable, like, uh, operations.

[01:45:05] That's right. Yeah. 

[01:45:06] Toliy: Yeah. You, you, you only start feeling that way once you actually like get over the hump on that thing. Then you yourself value those small things and those things. Yeah. And now it becomes an automatic thing that like, Hey, there's a lot of details here. You gotta pay attention. We gotta think about them.

[01:45:19] We gotta talk about them. Yeah. And then to the people that are not, they're, they're just wanting to have like overviews of everything. 

[01:45:25] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:45:26] Toliy: You know? 

[01:45:26] Eldar: Yeah. All right. I think we did it. I think we did a really good job when it comes to, uh, being mindful and trying to track it down. 

[01:45:34] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[01:45:34] Eldar: You know, pin it down and finally, uh, give the people, you know, a sense of direction when it comes to it.

[01:45:40] It's not fucking 10 minutes every day yoga. 

[01:45:42] Katherine: No, no. 

[01:45:42] Eldar: So what? This 

[01:45:43] Mike: one is giving me another one. 

[01:45:44] Eldar: No, no, no, no. This is 24 hours of yoga. I yoga. Understand why you 

[01:45:47] Katherine: guys say that, but I think there is something to that. Like it's meditation does not equal mindfulness. Yes. That's just a practice that you do to be a little bit more mindful.

[01:45:57] Because why? Because it calms all the 

[01:46:00] Eldar: Yes. 

[01:46:01] Katherine: The, the, the speed inside your, all the fast fire that's going on inside your, your brain. But ultimately you can't sit 

[01:46:06] Eldar: right. You can't sit. I'm not advocating for it. I'm just saying, you can't be walking in Times Square or sit in the office and be like, I'll be right back.

[01:46:12] 10 minutes. You know, meditating to calm yourself down. I understand that. Yeah. You have to live in the life. You have to live and 

[01:46:18] Toliy: there has to be a interact that there has to be a then a class after the meditation of like, okay, now that we're calm, yeah. What are we gonna do now? 

[01:46:25] Eldar: Yes. Mm-hmm. You know? But even then, right.

[01:46:28] You're not 24 7 can, can sustain that feeling just because you come out it after 10 minutes or 20 minutes or whatever. No, I understand. You're like, oh shit, I'm zad out or no. Well, that's what I'm not like sitting here advocating for, for I'm about to ask you a question or trigger you in such a way where you all, your zens gonna be gone for the next couple of months.

[01:46:41] You'll be done. Yeah. 

[01:46:43] Katherine: Yeah. You're not 

[01:46:43] Eldar: zening anymore because I'm gonna ask you the question you can't have answer. It's now, it's gonna rattle your ass. You know what I mean? And then what 

[01:46:50] Katherine: Yeah. 

[01:46:51] Eldar: Or something's gonna happen outside if somebody gives you the finger or whatever. Anything that triggers you, you're done.

[01:46:56] Where's the practice? It's 'cause you actually don't understand what the fuck is going on. That's why. 

[01:47:00] Toliy: Yeah. You're Or because 

[01:47:01] Katherine: you're not really in practice, I think maybe. Correct. It's it's it. Correct. 

[01:47:05] Toliy: Yeah. Like your practice has to be able to be applied in, in adversity. 

[01:47:09] Mike: So what are you guys saying? What I was gonna say?

[01:47:12] Hmm. This is going into the same camp as the trust camp. It is going the same. And the Hope Camp, it's going everywhere. It's right. All those camps. Yeah. Mindfulness is dead. Yeah. Mindfulness is dead. No, it's, it's alive. It alive. No, that doesn't make 

[01:47:27] Katherine: sense with anything that we just said. You can't say that.

[01:47:29] No, 

[01:47:29] Mike: I'm saying in the way that the general views general public. Yes. Yes. Wanna apply this? Yes. It's dead. It does not work. It's just a cliche thing of like, it's just a cliche word that's been abused, but, well, it's a, nobodys follows. Nobody follows. It's a way to, the way it's actually, if you break it down, what it means to be mindful to, unfortunately mindfulness, I think you guys, we disagree 

[01:47:49] Katherine: with, with, um, with the use of it and how it's thrown around.

[01:47:53] I think maybe we, 

[01:47:54] Eldar: yes. I think what we did today actually, we displayed or put on, displayed what the world mindfulness actually demands from us. Right. We're trying to understand what is actually behind mindfulness and how is it actually is, and how do you actually practice it. Mm-hmm. And what do you have to do and how do you prep yourself for that?

[01:48:13] Right. And what is needed. So we showed like, hey, there's prerequisites to this kind of shit, right? Mm-hmm. On the stamp pain. I mean, I mean, be aware of the fact that you're in pain, right? Mm-hmm. Then become curious as to find out like, what the fuck is actually going on here with me, with the world? And then hopefully you come across good questions and find the truth.

[01:48:31] Yeah. In order to then slowly implement your new found curiosity, new way of life and thinking in order to then extract everything that you want and need out of the each moment. Right. And that is actually you being truly mindful of every single moment 

[01:48:48] Katherine: mm-hmm. 

[01:48:49] Eldar: Where you give it respect and not arrogance, right.

[01:48:54] Um, in order to really get the most out of every moment. 

[01:48:59] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[01:49:00] Eldar: Right? So I 

[01:49:01] Katherine: hope we can remember the, uh, so 

[01:49:02] Eldar: the, the example of walking the dog, right? Where, where Mike was paying attention to Teddy, and Teddy turned around and was like, yo, I'm going this way dad today. He's like, yo, this is an anomaly. Let's go on, on an adventure.

[01:49:11] Right? Like that curiosity is what? Is the path to fun. 

[01:49:15] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[01:49:16] Eldar: To have fun, to, to figure out like, what are we doing here? Right. Yeah. Every time Archie pulls the other way and not to the park, we're like, oh shit. Penny's in trouble. Yeah. He has 

[01:49:24] Katherine: in his zig. Exactly. Today. 

[01:49:25] Toliy: But you can't do that. Like, you can't like, pay attention to what Archie's doing, or Mike can't pay attention to like, what, what Ted Teddy did.

[01:49:32] If, if you're in a rush, for example. Yeah. If you're not 

[01:49:34] Katherine: paying attention, you have 

[01:49:35] Toliy: to leave in five minutes and he wants, he's pulling the other way. Mm-hmm. Whatcha are you gonna, do you gonna be the owner who's gonna pull pull back? Yes. We got places to go. Yes. So like, you, you need to be able to put yourself in a position where you're not in that.

[01:49:47] Like, that, that to me is like, like, not, not like e easy wins, but it's almost like, like you're, you're being tasked to like, make things easier for yourself. It's like a Yeah. Which, which then puts you in a position to be mindful. Yes. You know? 

[01:50:03] Katherine: Hmm. 

[01:50:03] Toliy: So like, yeah. Like you have to like. You have to wake up every day and say, I don't wanna be in pain.

[01:50:07] And how do I get there? Yeah. Like how do 

[01:50:09] Eldar: I actually get there? Yeah. Like what is causing me pain? Yeah. Like you 

[01:50:11] Toliy: almost have to have like nothing planned every day. 

[01:50:14] Eldar: Yeah. This is 

[01:50:15] Toliy: the, this is, this is again my, this is again goes back to 

[01:50:17] Eldar: what Mike says. Yeah. Mike is always it's process of elimination. 

[01:50:19] Mike: Yeah.

[01:50:20] Eldar: Right. Saying, you know what, let me examine this thing. Oh. Doesn't serve me. Get the fuck outta here. Yeah. You have done to eliminate 

[01:50:26] Mike: As and then start over. Correct. You know, and I think, I mean, that's what I feel like I'm doing now. Now I eliminated stuff that wasn't serving me. Yeah. I don't engage in that.

[01:50:35] Now I'm trying to engage in new things. Yeah. But I'm trying to engage in a different way. I obviously don't wanna just like stay in subtraction from my whole life. Correct. You know, subtracting things. Now I'm ready to add things. But in a different approach with different mindset. Yeah. With a different mic.

[01:50:46] Different mic. And a different look. I think different. That's right. I think that's what toy's saying, like, wake up with no plans. Correct. You wake up and you ask yourself, okay, what do I, what do I want to do? It's funny, I sometimes I have a conversation with myself. I'm like, yeah, tomorrow morning I wake up and go to the gym.

[01:50:59] Yeah. I wanna do sa And then I wake up in the morning like, I don't wanna do this. I don't wanna do this. Yeah. That helps. But I don't care. Me. Yeah. Don't beat at myself. How about it? That's right. I actually, you have to give yourself credit. That's right. Be able to focus on what you want. Yes. And then laugh at yourself for the night before when you're making the plan.

[01:51:12] That's right. 'cause I think it's funny. Yeah. You know? 

[01:51:14] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[01:51:14] Mike: Correct. You know, like plenty of times we have plans like, yo, tomorrow rock climbing. Yes. Sure. And then tomorrow comes around 

[01:51:20] Eldar: tonight, I'm gonna play Counter Shark too much. Or maybe I'll have a little bit of a drink. I wake up, I'll go to sleep at two in the morning.

[01:51:25] I'm not doing no rock climbing. Yeah, and that's fine. Vi I 

[01:51:27] Mike: don't watch U ffc and that's fine. And I think, and I think that's part of also respecting yourself instead of trying to stuff your watermelon into a garden hose. That's right. You know? Yes. By trying, Hey, that's a little smirk right there by trying to go and he said yourself, he stuff your watermelon.

[01:51:42] I 

[01:51:43] Eldar: like, it's true. Where is this going then? He said garden hose. I remember. 

[01:51:46] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. My watermelon. Instead of trying to like what force yourself to go to do things that, first of all. Yeah. Like at least the way my thought is, you're gonna go somewhere, you're not gonna extract anything from it. You're gonna be angry, frustrated, tired.

[01:52:00] Yeah. You're not gonna actually reap any positivity from whatever you can engage. You resent yourself. You resent yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Like that's why would you do that? Correct. It's unnecessary. Just go, that's why. And relax. That's why, that's 

[01:52:09] Toliy: why people use discipline, because discipline is they, they, they're fast forwarding through their life by just Yes.

[01:52:16] You know, by applying discipline. Correct. To those things. Yeah. Correct. Using, yeah. 

[01:52:20] Katherine: For control. 

[01:52:21] Eldar: If you're wondering why we say discipline, we say discipline is dead. We 

[01:52:26] Katherine: have an episode on it. We have an episode. Yes. Find it. 

[01:52:28] Eldar: That's a couple years ago. Yeah. Um, alright, so those are my final thoughts. I think that to mindfulness, there's an actual equation.

[01:52:36] It's a tangible one. Mm-hmm. Totally agrees with me. So it's almost scientific. Yeah. Where if followed, I didn't scientific. Yeah. If it's followed, you'll be forced. You will be you. It's like you'll have. An offer that you can refuse. Mm-hmm. Right? You're like, oh shit, I actually like this. Mm-hmm. This feels so good.

[01:52:52] I wanna keep doing it, and I wanna do it as much as possible, but that requires me being attentive. Yeah. Asking good questions, being curious. Mm-hmm. Implementing some of new strategies. Right. And rediscovering myself or going on these adventures all of myself. Mm-hmm. 

[01:53:04] Katherine: Right. 

[01:53:05] Eldar: And the world. Yeah. Uh, and when you do, when, when you do it long enough, hopefully you fall in love with yourself by enjoying yourself even more throughout, throughout the different moments that, uh, life does present to you.

[01:53:15] Yeah. So, yeah. So if you thought that mindfulness was just 10 minutes a day, a yoga or meditation, I'm sorry, that is not the answer, you know? 

[01:53:25] Toliy: Yeah. And it's also like the, like the person that has a lot going on and like is a rushed person, like, go tell that person to go slow down. 

[01:53:33] Eldar: Mm-hmm. You can't because again, now we have another thing that we talked about a long time, right?

[01:53:37] It's mom to 

[01:53:38] Katherine: slow down. Yeah. 

[01:53:39] Eldar: Tell mom a to slow down. 

[01:53:40] Toliy: Yeah. That advice is like, it makes 

[01:53:43] Eldar: no sense. It makes no sense. It makes, so that's why, I mean, at least on our podcast, right? We take these buzzwords that are people using and we're trying to break them down to molecular level to really be like, okay, fine.

[01:53:54] What can we do with this? So it can benefit us and really understand it. And in the case of if you heard of mindfulness, now hopefully people will think that mindfulness is a very specific equation to get to a place where you can actually be happy. And that's what you're looking for, right? Yeah. On a consistent basis.

[01:54:10] So you don't have to be mindlessly uh, eating your pan pantry away 

[01:54:14] Mike: mm-hmm. And developing 

[01:54:15] Eldar: skin tags Yeah. With you into that kind of thing. That's my final thought, babe. What are your final thoughts? 

[01:54:23] Katherine: I know, I dunno. 

[01:54:24] Eldar: All right. That's 

[01:54:25] Mike: good, Mike. Yeah. Like, um, I feel like, um, I. We, we have like a, every day we have like a, we wake up with a certain, like they just call it a battery, right?

[01:54:36] Mm-hmm. Of energy that we have that we can devote to the day. And I think knowing your own, like limits, I guess the own, the battery capacity. 

[01:54:44] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:54:45] Mike: And using it properly, right? Yeah. Like if you go into a rush Yeah. You are like rushing somewhere. 

[01:54:50] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:54:51] Mike: Oh, use the car example, right? Yeah. When we drive the cars, you, you have a limit.

[01:54:55] If you drive really fast and you're in a rush. Yeah. Your battery's draining. That's right. In a rush. Frantic going crazy, right? Yeah. You're gonna, the battery's gonna drop. And I think the same thing for your battery Yeah. Is gonna drive if you do like, you know, mind, mind non mindful behavior. Mm-hmm. And but your battery starts with a hundred percent every day.

[01:55:12] Mm-hmm. Nonetheless. You gotta find out for yourself what behaviors actually is. What's the cost of each fucking mile? 

[01:55:20] Eldar: Oh, that's a good one. Hey, gimme a quote. You gotta finish. Finish it with a, with a nice quote on the, on this battery talk. I like it. I 

[01:55:26] Mike: don't, I don't have one. Alright. Mm-hmm. 

[01:55:28] Toliy: That's the life math man.

[01:55:30] Eldar: That's the 

[01:55:30] Mike: science. You guys, that's what you guys have signed. Yes. But I put it into math, 

[01:55:33] Eldar: so, so, so finish it. Be mindful of your 

[01:55:36] Mike: daily battery. Yeah. And don't do mindless things. Let's do it. Alright, fine. We gotta work on hard. We gotta work on it. Yeah. But I like it. But yeah, that's, that's what made me think Yes, because like everything costs battery.

[01:55:47] Correct. Every activity that you do. Yes. You feel tired. Yeah. You feel tired because you just drain your battery by doing something Mindless. Mindless, yeah. By exhausting yourself, by rushing, by panicking, by stressing by anxiety. That's right. 

[01:55:58] Eldar: That's why Catherine always goes, I'm always so 

[01:55:59] Mike: tired. Yeah.

[01:56:01] Katherine: Always. 

[01:56:02] Mike: Because when you wake up, I'm 

[01:56:03] Katherine: tired right now. 

[01:56:04] Mike: The thing is, especially when you're, when you're running around with chicken with no head, of course the a DH ADHD mind, when you wake up in the morning, you just open your eyes. Your battery's already draining. Yeah. You, Mike, 

[01:56:13] Katherine: I wake up and I'm tired. I 

[01:56:14] Mike: know, but that's because, well, you get good rest.

[01:56:17] Your mind is already racing from the moment you open your eyes. Yeah. You can't, you can't even wake up like a normal person and just like, 

[01:56:23] Eldar: no. You 

[01:56:23] Mike: know, can only 

[01:56:25] Eldar: chuck can only imagine how Catherine feels when I'm like, Hey guys, it's another day. We're gonna spend another day together. Yeah. Archie and Penny, you know?

[01:56:33] Yeah. And Kat's like, oh, damn. 

[01:56:35] Katherine: I mean, I get, she's exhausted. 

[01:56:38] Toliy: It's like, what the fuck? Yeah. 

[01:56:41] Katherine: You know? Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:56:42] Toliy: Yeah. And, and, and if you think about it, tell me like in, in like, like show it to me. Like in like, like, or, or, or, or like try to disprove like this, like theory of like, shouldn't it be the easiest thing then to do, to do nothing, to do nothing.

[01:56:58] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:56:59] Toliy: Like, like, like for example, if we're saying like, cat going forward, you just have to do, do nothing. Like, have no plans. Like Yeah. Not if you're a sinner. I think that should be easy. Right. Not if you're 

[01:57:08] Mike: a 

[01:57:08] Toliy: sinner against yourself. Right. Ver versus like the opposite should be hard. Yeah. Like do a lot of things.

[01:57:13] Get a bunch of shit done. Like that should be hard. 

[01:57:16] Eldar: That's right. 

[01:57:16] Toliy: But so it should be the easiest thing ever. Like, hey, like wake up tomorrow, sleep in. Mm-hmm. Don't really worry about a thing. 

[01:57:24] Eldar: Well, what will people think 

[01:57:25] of? Mm. 

[01:57:26] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[01:57:28] Eldar: You know? Yeah. That's 

[01:57:29] Katherine: not how my parents raised me. Uhhuh. Yeah. Yeah. Well, without you being raised by me.

[01:57:34] And that's, 

[01:57:34] Eldar: that's elder camp. But you still, you still cut in class. You still cut school. 

[01:57:38] Mike: Yeah. I a tension. 

[01:57:39] Yeah. I think that's the, that's the key right there. Don't cut class. 

[01:57:42] Eldar: Well, 

[01:57:43] Mike: AISM class. Aism class. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. I 

[01:57:44] Eldar: think that's what it is. Yeah. Thank you. Totally. That was, this was great.

[01:57:47] Those are your final thoughts. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Perfect. Um, oh, one more thing. So if cousin was listening, which I think he was. We'll send them the link as well. Mm-hmm. Because you have to get starlink enough of complaining of the bad internet. 

[01:58:03] Katherine: Mm-hmm. You 

[01:58:03] Eldar: have to enjoy yourself. Those are my final thoughts.

[01:58:06] Okay. And this is not an advertising for starlink? 

[01:58:09] Mike: No, 

[01:58:10] Eldar: it's advertising for cause. This is advertising for cause. All right guys, thank you. This is great.