198. Failure

Is failure actually real, or is it just a figment of your imagination? Most of us will make a thousand excuses just to avoid the "stigma" of failing, but what if you’ve had the whole perception wrong from the start?

In this episode, Eldar, Toliy, and Mike unpack the toxic connotation behind failure and reveal why your frustration and anger are actually "key indicators" that your goals aren't properly defined. We dive deep into the psychology of effort, the comfort found in shared fear, and how to rewire your brain to see "bumps in the road" as natural outcomes rather than endpoints.

Key Takeaways:

• The Learning Paradox: Why saying you fear failure is actually an admission that you fear the learning process.
• Defining Success by Effort: How to shift your goal-setting from "reaching the top" to "giving maximum effort" to eliminate the possibility of failing.
• The Truth About Suffering: How suffering acts as a result of the inability to learn from a situation.
• Subconscious Programming: Why society and parents subconsciously push us into "safe" paths to avoid perceived failures.

Most Insightful Moment:

"To say that you fear failure is to say that you fear learning... Failure is a perception. It's not an actual outcome; it's a perception of an outcome." — Toliy

We all think we’re making logical choices to protect ourselves, but who exactly "scared us into this" mindset, and why do we find a strange comfort in staying afraid together? The answer might change how you view every goal you've ever set...

Join the Conversation: Found a "bump in the road" today? Tell us how you're turning it into a learning moment in the comments! Don't forget to subscribe for more deep dives into the human experience.

Feel stuck and can't actualize? We'd love to hear your story - we can even dissect it on our next episode. Submit your story using this form - https://forms.gle/joegCWQ7mHt7eN3K9

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction: Fear of Failure
• 12:17 Embracing Challenges and Failure
• 20:46 Learning to Fail and Suffer
• 30:14 Rewiring Perceptions and Embracing Challenges
• 40:24 Elevator Encounter
• 58:57 Philosophical Insights on Learning and Failure
• 1:10:24 Final Thoughts on Failure and Learning

Transcript

[00:00:00] Dennis: On this week's episode 

[00:00:01] Toliy: to say that you fear failure is to say that you fear learning. Ooh, why? There's no such thing as failure. There's only failure is a perception. It's not an actual like outcome. It's a perception of an outcome. You weren't actually failing, you were just missing information. You were just not learning.

[00:00:16] You were not informed. You were not informed, therefore, like you were not failing. So, if that's the case, why can't you apply that to everything in your life? 

[00:00:23] Eldar: Correct. But if you're not having fun, if you angry, frustrated, most of the time, those are the key indicators to me, that's the black and white as I see it.

[00:00:33] You know, you probably got the whole perception wrong.

[00:00:43] All right, guys. On tonight's episode we're gonna talk about, which we probably never actually talked about in depth. 

[00:00:50] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:00:51] Eldar: About, um, failure. Yeah. The fear, the fear of failure. Why are we so afraid of even getting started a lot of times? 

[00:00:59] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:00:59] Eldar: Right. To even get to the point of failing at anything. Right.

[00:01:02] We will make a thousand excuses, um, to ourselves and others just to avoid failure. Is there a such thing as failure? What is it? Why is it, why does it play such, it sounds like plays a very important role in our lives. 

[00:01:19] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:01:20] Eldar: Maybe not a good one. Maybe important one. Maybe a good one actually, you know, but obviously the connotation behind failure is a bad one.

[00:01:26] Mike: Yeah. You know, there's definitely a bad connotation about 

[00:01:29] Eldar: Yeah. Failure. So 

[00:01:30] Mike: on the individual basis, 

[00:01:32] Eldar: let's unpack distinct failure. Is it even real? Is it a figment of our imagination? And what is it? Totally. You have a little smirk on your face, so let's Yeah. Hit us off. Start us off with this, 

[00:01:47] Toliy: I'm gonna start it off bold.

[00:01:48] Eldar: Yes. 

[00:01:50] Toliy: But only if you wanted like a 

[00:01:51] Eldar: i I I always like it bold. Come on. 

[00:01:53] Toliy: Yeah. Straight 

[00:01:54] Eldar: to the point. 

[00:01:54] Toliy: All right. The, the, uh, to say that you fear failure is to say that you fear learning. 

[00:02:02] Eldar: Oh. 

[00:02:04] Toliy: And if you fear why 

[00:02:06] Eldar: before you continue to the 

[00:02:07] Toliy: next thing. 'cause there's no such thing as failure. There's only, like, there's a, failure is a perception.

[00:02:12] It's not an actual like outcome. It's a perception of an outcome. 

[00:02:16] Eldar: It's a 

[00:02:16] Toliy: perception of an outcome and how somebody, um, talks about something, right? Because like you could say, oh, I don't know, let's just say my gut. 90% of it done and then he fell well, did he fail? Mm-hmm. Or, um, did he get 90% done and he progressed?

[00:02:34] Eldar: Correct. From 50%, 

[00:02:36] Toliy: for example, right? 

[00:02:37] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:02:37] Toliy: But you know, maybe to some climber he'd be like, oh, he failed. Look, he fell. You know, to someone else be like, oh no, he was only at one. Then he got to, he's already at four. Yeah. All he has to do is hit five. 

[00:02:48] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:02:48] Toliy: Clearly he didn't fail. 

[00:02:50] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:02:50] Toliy: So like, so it's a perception that word fail failure.

[00:02:53] Yeah. It's a perception. It's also something that, um, the way that you were taught to think about things 

[00:02:59] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[00:03:01] Toliy: Um, is using the word failure. But if you just replace the word failure with learning, well then like what, like what, which, which is what it actually is. But the way that people talk about it and the way that people act towards it is that they're actually afraid to learn.

[00:03:21] Because I think with learning, um, like learning creates outcomes and I think people are also afraid of outcomes and, um, 

[00:03:31] Eldar: learning creates outcomes. What do you mean by that? 

[00:03:33] Toliy: Well, like learning is like a progressive. Progressive, like, uh, 

[00:03:39] Eldar: experience. 

[00:03:40] Toliy: Experience, yeah. 

[00:03:41] Eldar: Okay. 

[00:03:41] Toliy: And, um, when you, when, when, when you look at failure as a learning, like if your perception of it 

[00:03:51] Eldar: is, well, how do you look at it as, as as learning?

[00:03:53] If you say, you know what, my goal is this, if you set yourself up for a goal, right? 

[00:03:59] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:03:59] Eldar: Climb this thing, get to the top. That's the top. I need you to touch that right there. And that's the top. If you set out to do that, but you didn't touch the top, you fell halfway through. 

[00:04:08] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:04:09] Eldar: How can you not sail that you didn't fail?

[00:04:11] Toliy: Well, yeah. I guess it depends on what, what you set out as like Yeah, probably like the goal and a lot of these goals are just like on, like, they're not really like, thought about and they're not because it's also difficult thought 

[00:04:24] Eldar: through. 

[00:04:24] Toliy: Yeah. It's difficult. Like I, I, I actually think it's like almost impossible to set like actual, proper goals because like what you have to do is you have to.

[00:04:35] You have to talk about something that like you don't have or isn't there right now. 

[00:04:39] Eldar: You have to make it up almost. 

[00:04:40] Toliy: Yeah. So like you're still like projecting or like predicting, right? Or like, 

[00:04:46] Eldar: yeah, 

[00:04:46] Toliy: yeah. Like people who like have a goal of being rich for example, you know? 

[00:04:51] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:04:51] Toliy: Like usually people who say that are probably the pole or opposite.

[00:04:55] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:04:55] Toliy: You know? So when you have that kind of goal, well, like how are you gonna project everything in between that's gonna happen. 

[00:05:02] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:05:03] Toliy: There's like so much in between. 

[00:05:05] Eldar: So you're saying that the person can't even, attri should not be attributing, oh no. You know what? If you live in the realms of failing and you constantly are afraid of something to fail is because you didn't define.

[00:05:20] Proper goals. 

[00:05:21] Toliy: Well, no, 

[00:05:22] Eldar: you didn't define proper variables that are baked in into achieving that goal. 

[00:05:26] Toliy: Yes. 

[00:05:27] Eldar: That's the thing. So you overshot you said, you know what? I want to climb up there, but like, wait a second, bro. You don't even know how to walk a straight line. 

[00:05:33] Toliy: Well, yeah, that, but you can also, you can make grandiose goals, but you need to, I, 

[00:05:39] Mike: I wonder, sorry.

[00:05:40] Yeah, 

[00:05:40] Toliy: you, you, you, you need to be, um, like yeah, you can make a, a grandiose goal, but you need to also understand that, hey, there's a lot of like mistakes and like, I guess so-called failures, if you wanna call 'em that, or just learnings that are gonna happen in between. 

[00:05:57] Eldar: But see, you again are talking about a more, an inte intellectual individual who's calculating the fact that, look, I can make a grandiose goal, but there're gonna be bumps in the road.

[00:06:06] Mike: Well, that, that I, if 

[00:06:08] Eldar: you're talking about bumps in the road, 

[00:06:09] Mike: I have a different take. 

[00:06:10] Eldar: You have a different focus then you're not focusing on failure. 

[00:06:12] Mike: I have a different take. Maybe, maybe it'll make sense, maybe not. Mm-hmm. It's something that I was telling you about earlier today, but I don't think the failure is, like you said, like let's say, um, I set out a goal to climb this thing 

[00:06:28] Eldar: mm-hmm.

[00:06:29] Mike: And I got to 90%. Yeah. Right. But if I didn't give a hundred percent to get to that 90%, then that's a failure. That's, I think that might be like, you know, like that, that, um, that quote that like, that um, that quote, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Like I, yesterday I failed a lot and I tried very hard. 

[00:06:50] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:06:51] Mike: But I came out, I felt like I won.

[00:06:52] Mm-hmm. I felt like I succeeded, even though I didn't reach those, like, those top holds. 

[00:06:57] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:06:58] Mike: I didn't punk out. So for me, that felt like a win. Mm-hmm. Not a failure. I might have failed at getting to the top. 

[00:07:05] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:07:06] Mike: But I didn't fail in my character, I guess. 

[00:07:08] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:07:08] Mike: I didn't fail my character. 

[00:07:09] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:07:10] Mike: Which I, I'm not sure if that's.

[00:07:12] More important. 

[00:07:14] Eldar: Well, it just sounds like you redefined the goal, right? 

[00:07:18] Mike: No, no, but I wasn't like, obviously I was trying to go to the top. 

[00:07:21] Eldar: Well, sure. But that was not the main goal again. Right. I, I think they, what you did, you, you became a little bit more smart mm-hmm. In your approach. Mm-hmm. By saying that, Hey, I'm gonna start defining my failures or successes based on the effort that I'm able to give.

[00:07:37] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:07:38] Eldar: Within that thing. Yeah. So you didn't say that the end goal or the win is the finish. You said the end goal. And the thing is, the finish is my maximum effort in that moment of what I can give. 

[00:07:49] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:07:50] Eldar: You give and that's what you did. 

[00:07:52] Mike: Yeah. But I didn't say that to myself before 

[00:07:54] Eldar: that's what happened.

[00:07:55] Mike: Yeah. But no, and I agree. That's what happened. 

[00:07:57] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:07:57] Mike: So did I, is that the truth or is that my truth? Or is that I. 

[00:08:02] Eldar: Well, no, it was definitely a subjective thing to you, you that's, that actually happened yesterday. 

[00:08:06] Mike: Yes, 

[00:08:06] Eldar: definitely. You know, in that specific example. 

[00:08:07] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:08:08] Eldar: I think that, yeah, I think that the smart way what to is talking about is that if you start calculating all the things that go into those types of goals or those kinds of accomplishments and stuff, you've come to realize that like you need to focus on something else completely.

[00:08:21] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:22] Eldar: You know, and then you kind of, uh, remove any type of failure unless, you know, if you had an honest conversation with yourself, like you said, Hey, I'm gonna give myself an maximum effort, but you don't give yourself the maximum effort, then you failed I'd giving yourself maximum effort. 

[00:08:39] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:08:41] Eldar: You know?

[00:08:42] Toliy: Yeah. But I think that, like, with, with creating goals, so-called failures are only natural outcomes. So trying to, um, set yourself up for a world where you're not gonna have natural outcomes happen from something that you haven't done, for example, before. Or maybe like a variable that you didn't consider.

[00:09:05] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:05] Toliy: You know, um, like that, that, that to me is just like a foolish in general, but I think failures are, um, completely okay. If those, if, if, if, or I mean, like even, even if they, if, even if those failures don't turn into learnings, like the ideal scenario is of failures turn into learning, then learning is like, like knowledge is received and then like the information is like applied.

[00:09:35] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:36] Toliy: And then you give it another go, and you're supposed to, you know, over time get better and better and improve. 

[00:09:41] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:09:41] Toliy: And learn again, learn from failure. So I, that's a very common phrase, right? Mm-hmm. Is that people learn from mistakes from failure, learn from failures. Right. Um, a common phrase that people say is like, Hey, like, it's better to learn from other people's mistakes, for example, which is very hard.

[00:09:56] Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:56] Eldar: Um, 

[00:09:57] Toliy: but sure it's ideal. Right. Like to like not learn from your own mistakes, but from other mistakes, you know? And, and like, to some degree, like people do learn from others mistakes. Like, I don't know, like people hear about, uh, people, I dunno, going to prison for doing particular things. I don't know.

[00:10:15] Let's just say like 

[00:10:16] Eldar: rob a bank, 

[00:10:16] Toliy: uh, yeah. Robbing a bag or like committing fraud, for example. 

[00:10:20] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:20] Toliy: Then they're not gonna do it. 'cause like, they've already heard about this many times, you know, Hey, you can't rob a bank. Like you can't kill somebody. You can't do this. You can't steal. 

[00:10:28] Eldar: Well, I hope you the only dis I hope you don't make those proper decisions based on just seeing other people going to jail.

[00:10:34] Toliy: Well, well, no, like that's 

[00:10:34] Eldar: part of, I'll make it through, you know, your own ethics and 

[00:10:37] Toliy: Well, of course. But I'm saying is that like, that, that's also like learning from other people's failures. Mm-hmm. Of like understanding, like, hey, good, this is good, this is bad, this is good, this is bad. This is okay. This is not okay.

[00:10:47] Yeah. Like, that's like a partial way of like learning, you know, I don't know, becoming a drug addict. Like you already see many instances of what happens. Some people learn. From that. Some people don't, I guess. Right. Like, you know, so 

[00:11:01] Eldar: yeah. I'm not sure if that's a good example, but Yeah. 

[00:11:03] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, yeah.

[00:11:05] I just feel, 

[00:11:06] Eldar: I don't think anybody just sitting there kinda like, all right, should I become a drug addict today or 

[00:11:10] Toliy: not? No. I, you know, I don't think anyone don't, but that's what subconsciously I think is happening. Mm-hmm. Like a lot of this information is subconsciously happening. 

[00:11:18] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:11:18] Toliy: Right. Like, um, I don't know, like, the idea of going to school, right?

[00:11:24] Like, parents always push school, so like, you know, you don't end up like a homeless bum or something, right? Mm-hmm. Or like, you know, just like a 

[00:11:30] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:11:31] Toliy: A person would know, like, you know? 

[00:11:32] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:11:33] Toliy: Like that. So they're like, yeah, you have to go to school. You have to educate yourself. You have to learn like this is isn't porn like 

[00:11:37] Eldar: mm-hmm.

[00:11:38] Toliy: That, like, you, you didn't sit down obviously and have that kind of thought of like, Hey, uh, I'm gonna go to school so that I don't end up like a homeless person, you know? 

[00:11:47] Eldar: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[00:11:47] Toliy: Um, but all those like subtle informations that like your parents and like society said, definitely influenced you to. Take particular steps to do particular things 

[00:11:59] Eldar: For sure.

[00:11:59] Toliy: To create particular outcomes. 

[00:12:01] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:12:01] Toliy: You know? 

[00:12:02] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:12:02] Toliy: So like that subconscious learning I think is happening. Um, and some people I think are better at, at learning from that kind of way, and some people are worse at it. 

[00:12:10] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:12:10] Toliy: Uh, obviously the people who still step in shit are the people who still make big, big mistakes.

[00:12:17] Um, but yeah, I think overall, yeah, I think failures are, are, um, completely nor normal. And like, they're good things. They're, they're like, if you're being challenged, for example, you probably have a high, a high likelihood of, for example, a failing. 

[00:12:35] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:12:35] Toliy: And like, to me, someone who's being challenged, like, like I definitely view that as like a good thing.

[00:12:40] For example, if they're 

[00:12:41] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[00:12:41] Toliy: Being challenged to do something, that means that there's a crossroads, there's like a, um, potential different direction changes, right? There's mm-hmm. Yeah. There, there's opportunity to learn what, what 

[00:12:52] Eldar: is being challenged and who's actually being challenged. What do you think?

[00:12:56] Toliy: What, what is being challenged? 

[00:12:57] Eldar: Yeah. Like who is being challenged actually, 

[00:13:01] Toliy: you know. Well, I think it's like, um, well, well, it depends on this situation. 

[00:13:06] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:13:07] Toliy: But I think that, um, what, what's, what's being, um, challenge I think a lot of times is your understanding of life. 

[00:13:17] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:13:18] Toliy: Um, your understanding of what out, like outcomes.

[00:13:20] Your perception, your, your yes. Your perceptions is being challenged with, for example, like, well, in a good case against the truth. 

[00:13:28] Eldar: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[00:13:30] Toliy: It's, it, it's seeing where you're at. Yeah. On, on this, like fear for example, is a very like, uh, obviously it's a real feeling, but a lot of it is like made up and, um, non-logical conclusions on things.

[00:13:49] Mm-hmm. So when you're being challenged with being afraid of some of something 

[00:13:53] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:13:54] Toliy: You're also, I think, being tested of whether you're, like, you can think and, and, and create conclusions soundly about things or not. 

[00:14:03] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:14:04] Toliy: And oftentimes based on your fears, you could see where you can create sound or not sound conclusions.

[00:14:12] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:14:13] Toliy: And I think that that dictates a lot of, of people's lives in, in, in general. And then when, when, when those fears are like, o overwhelming, I think that's when those words of failure, like of actual, like the people oftentimes perceive failure as a, uh, like an endpoint. 

[00:14:35] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:14:36] Toliy: Like the end, it's done.

[00:14:38] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:14:38] Toliy: Not as it's a stepping stone. 

[00:14:40] Eldar: Hmm. That's true. I agree with that. 

[00:14:42] Toliy: And when you, when you perceive failure as a learning, then you're, you perceive it as like a stepping stone because knowing what's not like doesn't work for you. What's not Correct. That's all part of. Learning. 

[00:14:55] Eldar: Yeah. And I think that's a very good point that you make about the fact that a lot of times, uh, fear clouds your, clouds your judgment and makes a, a premature conclusion about the world.

[00:15:08] Toliy: Yeah. Fear, fear removes you the, it, it, it, it takes away the ability for it to have proper judgment. 

[00:15:15] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:15:16] Toliy: But you don't realize that that's what's happening 

[00:15:18] Eldar: and it further solidifies what your wrong perception. 

[00:15:22] Toliy: Yeah. And, and, and when you're afraid of something, um, I think that's probably when you make the most conclusions about things, 

[00:15:29] Eldar: why is it feel such a, such a natural, almost like organic thing that's happening in stores as humans?

[00:15:35] Toliy: Because it's been, uh, uh, normalized. 

[00:15:39] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:15:40] Toliy: Like hu humans never understood 

[00:15:42] Eldar: who scared, who scared us into this shit. 

[00:15:45] Toliy: You know, others, 

[00:15:46] Eldar: others. 

[00:15:47] Toliy: Pe people who are afraid. 

[00:15:48] Eldar: I think he's right. 

[00:15:49] Toliy: People who are afraid wanna let other people know that you should be afraid. 

[00:15:52] Eldar: You should be afraid. 

[00:15:54] Toliy: You know 

[00:15:56] Eldar: why? 

[00:15:59] Toliy: Because there's, there's, um, there's comfort in it.

[00:16:03] Probably. 

[00:16:04] Eldar: You don't want to be afraid, uh, naked and afraid alone. 

[00:16:08] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:16:09] Eldar: You don't wanna be naked afraid with someone, 

[00:16:13] Toliy: you know? It's like when there's something in, in the news. Mm-hmm. They spread it like wildfire. 

[00:16:18] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. Mm. So I might, 

[00:16:22] Toliy: what, what's, uh, sells more like bad news or good news? 

[00:16:26] Eldar: Well, we know that, we know that well because it's, you know, a lot of people obviously are subjected to living lives, living out lives that are in the wrong perception versus the right perception.

[00:16:39] So they obviously consume that, which is, you know, pertains to their current understanding. 

[00:16:44] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:16:44] Eldar: And news does a pretty good job of marketing that kind of 

[00:16:46] Toliy: narrative. Well, yeah. And, and when, when you buy into fear. You want to hear about, like, you, you get almost addicted to hear about more fearful things to, to justify your 

[00:16:57] Eldar: mm-hmm.

[00:16:58] Toliy: Illogical. Like, it, it, it, it justifies your, uh, it, it, it tries to make you believe that your incorrect ways of, of thinking and doing things is actually correct. 

[00:17:08] Eldar: Hmm. 

[00:17:10] Toliy: So it just solid, like, it solidifies what, what you think, like it solidifies your perceptions. 

[00:17:16] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:17:17] Toliy: When you continue to hear these fear-based approaches 

[00:17:21] Eldar: and relating with that kind of stuff is obviously, gives you some kind of comfort.

[00:17:25] Toliy: Of course.

[00:17:29] Eldar: Damn, Mike, how does this resonate with you? 

[00:17:34] Mike: I'm not really sure. 

[00:17:35] Eldar: You're not really sure? 

[00:17:36] Mike: No. 

[00:17:36] Eldar: Well, for, for a very long time, you yourself, you know, uh, obviously, uh, made plenty of excuses of why you don't wanna do something, why you are a slow starter. 

[00:17:46] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:47] Eldar: You know, and it was fear based. And now you are like, Hey, hey, hey, I think my perception was wrong about this whole thing.

[00:17:55] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:56] Eldar: And obviously you're now trying to rewire yourself in such a way where like you don't wanna be held back anymore by those same narratives. 

[00:18:02] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, 

[00:18:06] Eldar: but like you were experiencing that stuff and like you were telling me about it, but like, I'm not buying it. 

[00:18:14] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:15] Eldar: I never bought it.

[00:18:15] Mike: Yeah, I know. 

[00:18:16] Eldar: You know what I'm saying? Because like, I wanna see things for what they are a little bit more. Mm-hmm. And I want to obviously push you and make you better. 

[00:18:23] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:23] Eldar: Or not even, not even make you better, but more so like, uh, show you the way that like, uh, this is not even like, you don't have to excel here.

[00:18:32] Like you could just tap it into who you are. 

[00:18:34] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:35] Eldar: You know what I mean? So the bar was like, Hey, just like you got this, like you're strong enough to do this. You're strong enough to do that. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Like you technical enough to do this, but you yourself with the fear and stuff Yeah.

[00:18:45] You would fight back. It's like, Nope, nope. Nope, I can't do this, I can't do that. You know what I mean? And like psych yourself out. 

[00:18:53] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:18:54] Eldar: I mean, in a very, uh, illogical or unfair way towards yourself. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, and like, and then what happens in that kind of a dynamic with me, like I obviously, like I'm not budging.

[00:19:08] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:08] Eldar: You ain't gonna convince me of this shit. 

[00:19:10] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:19:10] Eldar: I'm just ruling you out and say, ah, he's being a pussy. 

[00:19:12] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:13] Eldar: You know what I'm saying? 

[00:19:14] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:19:14] Eldar: And then we go out separate ways. You go and kind of reflect on your own, like you and the shit are like, oh, you know, probably feeling like a loser. 

[00:19:22] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:23] Eldar: You know what I mean?

[00:19:24] I'm thinking like, oh, I'm not really thinking highly of you because you fucking, you know. Mm-hmm. You didn't do shit. Mm-hmm. You didn't show up, you didn't like show out. 

[00:19:30] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:30] Eldar: So you were all alone. So who do you call? Ghostbusters. 

[00:19:36] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:39] Eldar: You know? Yeah. How, how, like how do you, how do you not develop a, a level of, uh, negative self-talk towards yourself 

[00:19:46] Mike: mm-hmm.

[00:19:46] Eldar: Or fall into a, a, a depression. How, if that's your narrative, if that's your, uh, default, you're gonna be back to yourself. 

[00:19:58] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:19:59] Eldar: Through many different things. Depression, negative self-talk. Right. Putting yourself down, you know, not being so motivated anymore. Like all those things are gonna come creep up your way because mm-hmm.

[00:20:08] You operating out of a, your own perception that was formed based on fear. 

[00:20:14] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:15] Eldar: I'm not sharing it with you. 

[00:20:16] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:20:17] Eldar: I don't want it. Mm-hmm. Don't give it to me. You know what I'm saying? You are all alone on this island of fear, doubt failure. 

[00:20:25] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:26] Eldar: You know what I mean? And now obviously you're trying to turn the other leaf.

[00:20:31] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:20:33] Eldar: What was wrong with you? 

[00:20:35] Mike: I, uh. I had a failure 

[00:20:39] Eldar: uhhuh 

[00:20:40] Mike: of learning how to fail. 

[00:20:43] Eldar: I like that. Yeah. 

[00:20:44] Mike: I think that's actually what happened. Yeah. I don't think, I don't think, uh, people are not really taught how to fail. 

[00:20:51] Eldar: How to fail. 

[00:20:52] Mike: Yeah. I, I don't think people are taught, I'm gonna tie to another thing I'm gonna say.

[00:20:56] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:20:57] Mike: People are not really taught how to suffer. 

[00:20:59] Eldar: How to suffer properly. 

[00:21:00] Mike: Yeah. And that's why that's huge. Cause of every, a lot of problems. 

[00:21:03] Eldar: You know, you say that and you have a very specific moment, I know in your life and the people who have been listening to you, I know you mentioned that, you know, many times your example of why when you failed and when you, you perceived it the wrong way.

[00:21:14] I don't have a, I don't have an example of myself, of when I learned how to fail. 

[00:21:17] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:18] Eldar: I don't have that. I don't have it when like, yeah, I was riding a bike, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. And then I fell, my dad's like, yo, do it this way. Or my mom. I don't have that moment 

[00:21:27] Mike: mm-hmm. 

[00:21:28] Eldar: Where I can say like, Hey, like, somebody taught me how to fail.

[00:21:30] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:31] Eldar: So where did I get that from? Well, you educated yourself when and how, you know what I mean? Like, but see, I don't remember having like a defining moment to say like, I got it. You know what I mean? Like, but you, 

[00:21:41] Mike: you also are like, the difference, 

[00:21:44] Eldar: you know, 

[00:21:44] the 

[00:21:44] Mike: distance where I was trying to get, uh, trying to get to is 

[00:21:47] Eldar: Yeah.

[00:21:47] Mike: The person with the failure problem Yeah. Is not an empowered person. 

[00:21:50] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:21:52] Mike: I've always been 

[00:21:53] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:21:53] Mike: With that and not empowered. 

[00:21:55] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:21:56] Mike: And a lot of stuff. 

[00:21:56] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:21:57] Mike: I'm not You've been, yeah. You've been very empowered for 

[00:22:00] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:22:01] Mike: For most of your life. 

[00:22:02] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:22:02] Mike: I think it's been normalized than I known you. 

[00:22:04] Eldar: Yeah. It's been nor I've been, nor I've normalized 

[00:22:06] Mike: it.

[00:22:06] And I think that the thing is, 

[00:22:08] Eldar: yeah. 

[00:22:08] Mike: For me it was from a young age, right? Mm-hmm. That whole story, so I do remember it, but I think that was always kind of like, I never, I failed in that and then I had such a bad association with failure. I was, you never 

[00:22:20] Eldar: addressed 

[00:22:20] Mike: it. I never like, yeah. I never actually grew up out of that failing little kid.

[00:22:24] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:25] Mike: I always carried that lack of empowerment or lack of like self-belief or all that stuff. Mm-hmm. For, for everything that I do, because that was such a traumatic thing. So maybe you didn't have that moment because you became empowered at a young age from the opposite of maybe succeeding a lot and believing yourself or your support from your parents.

[00:22:44] Right. Yeah. You also know my dad, a lot of times he'll gimme mixed messages. 

[00:22:47] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:22:48] Mike: You're doing this good, then you and you doing this bad. All in the same sense on the same topic. 

[00:22:52] Eldar: Well, I remember these Yeah. Moments. Yeah. 

[00:22:54] Mike: So that's also part of why I was not empowered. 

[00:22:57] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:22:58] Mike: So I'm not, I don't know if like people are born empowered and then it's taken away from them, or they're born not empowered and it's, they kind of get it, 

[00:23:06] Eldar: it yeah.

[00:23:06] Mike: Themselves. So 

[00:23:07] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:23:08] Mike: But I think it's a huge culprit of like 

[00:23:10] Eldar: I agree. No, I definitely agree. It's just like, the thing is, it's like the impact of the negative doing that, you know, raising the kids or whatever that mm-hmm. Stays so much more vivid throughout your life and has so much a bigger impact. Yeah.

[00:23:23] Then let's just say. I mean, obviously I, like I said, I can't tell tell you a moment where I was empowered, quote unquote, or when, like my parents showed me how to fail the, the right way. I don't have that, you know what I mean? See, there probably were some moments, 

[00:23:36] Toliy: I, I don't even, 

[00:23:37] Eldar: I can't reference it. 

[00:23:38] Toliy: Like, I, I, I, but see, like I, I disagree a little bit of like, around the point of like, uh, learning to fail.

[00:23:44] I think that like the ball was dropped in failing to, to learn. 

[00:23:48] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:23:49] Toliy: Not, not learning to fail, because I think that like, again, yeah. Learning to learn, fail, like saying, learning to fail, I, I, I feel is like a, a little bit of an incorrect way to look at it, because I think it's like, it, it's giving a particular, uh, power to failure.

[00:24:05] Yes. And finding ways to like, work around it. 

[00:24:07] Eldar: Yes. 

[00:24:07] Toliy: Ver versus, like, I, I, I, I think the ball is dropped of like failure to learn because like, you don't know how to learn properly. Mm. Therefore. The word failure exists to begin with in the way that you perceive it to, to begin with. 

[00:24:21] Eldar: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:22] Toliy: But if you learn to learn properly 

[00:24:24] Eldar: Yeah.

[00:24:25] Toliy: Then you don't view it. You, you don't have like 

[00:24:28] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:24:28] Toliy: Failure doesn't exist almost for you. 

[00:24:30] Eldar: That's right. Yeah. I never look at failing. Like, shoot, there's gonna be moments where you drop the ball here, there, whatever. But it's like never like a thing that's like holding me back or I'm thinking like 

[00:24:38] Mike: mm-hmm.

[00:24:38] Eldar: It through, you know what I'm saying? 

[00:24:41] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:24:42] Eldar: Yeah. But like, I didn't come in, also, I didn't come into that competition. First time competition. Yeah. I had little butterflies in my stomach. Yeah. I'm aware of them. 

[00:24:50] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:50] Eldar: I, I know how they feel like, not my first rodeo. Mm-hmm. I knew that I wasn't gonna obviously come number one, but I didn't define that to be a failure.

[00:24:59] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:24:59] Eldar: You know what I'm saying? I already like subconsciously knew that like, I'm gonna do my best and I don't give a fuck what anybody says. And I think I did. I mean, my body fucking told me I fucking did. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? My shoulder fucking was hurting. Everything was hurting, you know? Yeah.

[00:25:11] But I felt accomplished and I'm like, yo, I did five outta 10. I completed, like, are you kidding me? Like, I'm a new here. You know? Mm-hmm. I fucking beat everyone, you know? Mm-hmm. In my mind, that's how I perceived it. 

[00:25:21] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:25:22] Eldar: You know what I'm saying? 

[00:25:23] Mike: Mm-hmm. I know what you're saying. I 

[00:25:24] Eldar: like, I won. 

[00:25:25] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:25:26] Eldar: You know, so.

[00:25:27] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. But, but I, I mean like my whole, my whole thing, I think what, what, um, what, what kind of the thing that that, that, again, my situation when I was at that, you know, tournament, I didn't learn or I failed to learn, or I learned to fail or whatever, you know, whatever way, like, um, to say it properly.

[00:25:48] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:25:50] Mike: I was never taught like, uh. I never learned how to get back out from that failure. Right. 

[00:25:56] Eldar: Yeah. Well, 

[00:25:56] Mike: I, yeah, I think that what totally is, is, is going 

[00:25:58] Toliy: towards. Yes. Yeah. I, I, I think I'm able to put it together now. I feel like if you don't know, if 

[00:26:04] Eldar: I know what you're trying to say, I'm gonna say it. Yeah.

[00:26:06] Toliy: Oh, okay. 

[00:26:06] Eldar: Go better than you probably. Alright, 

[00:26:07] Toliy: go ahead. Fine. 

[00:26:09] Eldar: You weren't properly helped to interpret the world 

[00:26:13] Mike: mm-hmm. 

[00:26:13] Eldar: Or the outcomes of the world. 

[00:26:15] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:26:15] Eldar: Right. That's, 

[00:26:16] Mike: that's exactly, that's what I was gonna say. Yeah. 

[00:26:18] Eldar: Because my 

[00:26:18] Mike: dad 

[00:26:18] Eldar: failure or wins or losses. Right. Never explain 

[00:26:20] Mike: to me 

[00:26:21] Eldar: because you can interpret a win in such a way where you have bratty ass kids who just want a tournament in baseball or whatever.

[00:26:26] Mm-hmm. And now they, uh, talking shit or bullying the other team. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Yeah. You didn't learn how to win properly either, you know what I mean? With grace and stuff like that and being humble and stuff like that. So, same thing on both sides. So I think that there's a lot of. Outcomes in life 

[00:26:40] Mike: mm-hmm.

[00:26:40] Eldar: Or things that happen, you know, were perceived maybe incorrectly or weren't explained properly. Yeah. Which is in turn you didn't learn, so somebody didn't teach you the right way. Yeah. To be able to perceive them. 

[00:26:50] Toliy: But, but, but see what, what, what I'm trying to formulate is like, if you don't know how to learn from le, let just say to, to, to keep it easy, if you don't know how to learn from, let's just say failures.

[00:27:04] Right. Or just like, if you don't know how to properly learn 

[00:27:07] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[00:27:07] Toliy: You will get frustrated with failing. 

[00:27:09] Eldar: Yes. 

[00:27:10] Toliy: That that's what happens. Yes. Mm-hmm. And then you forever get put on a path of like frustration or connotation with failure because you're forever frustrated. 

[00:27:18] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:27:18] Toliy: Because you don't have the ability.

[00:27:20] To extract knowledge, 

[00:27:21] Eldar: which, what's needed to be extracted. 

[00:27:23] Toliy: Yes. Know knowledge from mistakes. 

[00:27:24] Eldar: Yeah. Oh yeah, that's, well, no, no. See, again, you can erase the word mistakes too. Yeah. 

[00:27:29] Toliy: Well, yeah. That, that's 

[00:27:30] Eldar: what I'm saying. You, 

[00:27:30] Toliy: you, 

[00:27:30] Eldar: you can't extract 

[00:27:32] Toliy: learning 

[00:27:32] Eldar: knowledge from the 

[00:27:33] Toliy: observation yout know how to learn.

[00:27:34] Eldar: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:27:34] Toliy: Because you don't know how to learn, 

[00:27:36] Eldar: you don't know how to interpret the world. 

[00:27:37] Toliy: Yes. If, if you don't know how to learn, 

[00:27:39] Eldar: yeah. 

[00:27:39] Toliy: You'll get frustrated with everything. 

[00:27:40] Eldar: Correct. You just don't know how to interpret the outcomes of what happens. 

[00:27:44] Toliy: Yes. 

[00:27:44] Eldar: Right. You, you, the cause and effect. Yeah, sure. This is the, the effect of it.

[00:27:48] But what does it mean though? 

[00:27:50] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:27:50] Eldar: Like why did you jump into conclusion of having an emotional outburst on this? Why did you cry? Why did you laugh? Why did you yell? Right. 

[00:27:57] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:27:58] Eldar: Why? 

[00:27:58] Toliy: Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, can imagine like a world where like if, if you had access to like this kind of like, like, like truth for example, right?

[00:28:05] Like, let's just say that, I don't know, you went climbing and then like you failed or like you did particular things or like, like, like, I don't know. You didn't perform well. 

[00:28:13] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:28:14] Toliy: To, to what, to what you were thinking. Right. Um, if you could just put that in a ai, for example. Before you formulate how you should feel about it, you should ask it like, Hey, should I be disappointed with myself?

[00:28:25] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:28:26] Toliy: Yeah. Or it might say like, Hey, actually per your grip strength 

[00:28:28] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:28:29] Toliy: You are not supposed to do, you know, X, Y, and Z. Correct. And per your, I don't know, your leap abilities or the, the length of your leg. 

[00:28:37] Eldar: Correct. 

[00:28:37] Toliy: Right. The therefore, no, you should not be frustrated. Yeah. You actually need to start doing this, this, and this to get there.

[00:28:42] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:28:43] Toliy: If 

[00:28:43] Eldar: you want to. 

[00:28:44] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. Then you would have an explanation for why you couldn't live up to what you were like thinking about or projecting. 

[00:28:51] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:28:51] Toliy: And therefore you should not have a poor emotion towards it. 

[00:28:54] Eldar: Well, that's the thing, the projecting part is where a lot of times we are our ego maybe.

[00:28:58] Right? Yeah. Blows this thing up, puts stuff on the 

[00:29:01] Toliy: pedestal. Yeah. Like if I told you like, Hey Elder, I'm, I'm gonna, uh, like, like I have a competition for you. I want, I, I need you to run home right now to your house. Mm-hmm. From here, from work. 

[00:29:10] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:29:10] Toliy: But you need to run home in 10 minutes. 

[00:29:11] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:12] Toliy: Well, if you couldn't get there in 10 minutes, would you get frustrated?

[00:29:17] Right now. No. Course, of course. It's not a realistic outcome. 

[00:29:20] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:29:21] Toliy: So how could you get frustrated with a non-realistic outcome or like a, uh, something that's not supposed to happen to begin with, for example? Oftentimes 

[00:29:28] Eldar: the 

[00:29:29] Toliy: thing is that, that think we're 

[00:29:30] Eldar: supposed 

[00:29:30] Toliy: to 

[00:29:30] Eldar: happen. The thing is that's a very, uh, easy example that you 

[00:29:32] Toliy: give.

[00:29:32] Eldar: Yes. 

[00:29:33] Toliy: Well, that that's a black 

[00:29:34] Eldar: and white example. 

[00:29:34] Toliy: A very black and white. But I'm saying most of the time people are thinking that they know how to do things or how things are supposed to go. Yeah. Therefore, they get frustrated from outcomes that that didn't live up to what they were thinking in their head.

[00:29:46] Mm-hmm. But they did, did not, they didn't have the ability to project the correct timeline or the project, the, the correct steps of of things. Reason the 

[00:29:54] Eldar: variables. 

[00:29:54] Toliy: Yes. 

[00:29:55] Eldar: Calculate all the variables 

[00:29:56] Toliy: that they're gonna take place. Yes. But they know this. They don't know that. Like, Hey, this is what happened.

[00:30:00] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:30:00] Toliy: But if you had a tool where you could find out before you felt a way towards something 

[00:30:04] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:30:04] Toliy: You would never get frustrated. 

[00:30:05] Eldar: Correct. 

[00:30:06] Toliy: Like if you can't get frustrated not being able to run home in 10 minutes 'cause it's not possible. 

[00:30:10] Eldar: Yeah. Correct. So. So you, you, you putting yourself on a very interesting journey then, Mike.

[00:30:17] Mm-hmm. Obviously me. I mean, you've been talking about it. Yeah. But I think that, that, you know, to say it out loud and publicly 

[00:30:23] Mike: mm-hmm. 

[00:30:23] Eldar: Uh, it is an interesting journey because you have the opportunity to now Right. Uh, rewire your whole system consciously. 

[00:30:32] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:30:34] Eldar: You know, and challenge yourself internally, uh, every time.

[00:30:40] Oh, you already have certain methods that you're doing, you know mm-hmm. With me and stuff like that. Uh, where you gonna call these things out and be like, wait, am I right here? Am I wrong here? Why am I doing this? You know, 

[00:30:49] Mike: and 

[00:30:50] Eldar: mm-hmm. And really get to the bottom of 

[00:30:51] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:30:51] Eldar: What's actually going on, you know?

[00:30:54] So you could have more moments, like you had one, like yesterday, you said, Hey, sure. I failed on those climbs. I did, but I gave it my all and I really liked that about myself, and that felt really good. 

[00:31:04] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:04] Eldar: So much so that you felt confidence building, you said? 

[00:31:08] Mike: Mm-hmm. Yeah. In 

[00:31:09] Eldar: yourself. I think that's where it's at.

[00:31:12] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:12] Eldar: Actually, 

[00:31:13] Mike: yeah. 

[00:31:14] Eldar: You know? 

[00:31:15] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:31:16] Eldar: All right. So when we have to take Gary and put him down and, uh, have a, we have a bone to pick with him, you know? 

[00:31:21] Mike: Yeah. No, I, I think 

[00:31:23] Eldar: job, 

[00:31:23] Mike: I think, yeah. I'm not gonna put it on him. Like whatever he did, he did, he did whatever he did. 'cause to the best that he knew 

[00:31:29] Eldar: that he knew.

[00:31:29] Yeah. 

[00:31:30] Mike: But now I'm an adult and I don't want that. 

[00:31:32] Eldar: Correct. 

[00:31:32] Mike: I have a choice in the matter now, 

[00:31:33] Eldar: and I think that's the proper way of handling 

[00:31:35] Mike: it. Yeah. Yeah. He didn't do it intentionally. Like he didn't 

[00:31:37] Yeah. 

[00:31:38] Eldar: He didn't know any better. 

[00:31:39] Mike: He didn't know any better. I don't really, yeah. I don't care about 

[00:31:41] Eldar: that. The job is now on you to fix yourself.

[00:31:44] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:31:44] Eldar: To how you want to be, be a happy, confident human, empowered human. 

[00:31:48] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:31:48] Eldar: So then you can pass this on to your kid. 

[00:31:50] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:51] Eldar: You know what I mean? 

[00:31:51] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:31:52] Eldar: And if there was a bad loop in your family where everyone was not confident and were self-doubting themselves and self loathing themselves, you can break that.

[00:32:01] You know what I mean? With the next generation. Yeah. And I think that's, I think that's what it's about. 

[00:32:05] Mike: I think. Uh, I think so too. I think it's also, it it, you know, like the conversation it all, like, I think a part of it also came from watching the, that free solo documentary. Mm-hmm. You know, you guys saw it.

[00:32:19] Tell he saw it. Yeah. Ka saw, cat saw. Yeah. I think I, I, he, he kind of gave a lot of his mind, you know, his insight, how his mind works. And I, and I like, you know, I thought he was a total nut, which I think he is a total nut. Yeah. But, um, but he is not, but he is not. Yeah. 

[00:32:37] Katherine: Total nut. Like in a good way. Right? 

[00:32:39] Mike: Oh, well, he, I think he's, I think he, to a degree, he's probably a genius.

[00:32:42] Yeah. He's a genius. But like, uh, 

[00:32:43] Katherine: he cracked the code for fear. 

[00:32:45] Mike: Yeah. Well, or 

[00:32:46] Katherine: he understood it. 

[00:32:47] Mike: Or for, for your own limitations. 

[00:32:49] Katherine: Wait, but like, he actually doesn't produce fear. Like much fear to begin with. 

[00:32:54] Eldar: Oh, no, no, 

[00:32:55] Katherine: no, no, no, no, 

[00:32:56] Eldar: no, no. It's different. No, not, no. They measured his brain and they threw stuff at him that we would be thrown and regular, quote unquote.

[00:33:03] Right. We would react to like, so we would get scared away. We, you know, because we're not used to that kind of stuff. He's trained himself so much and he's faced so many things that when those, you know, not so regular things come his way, he is like, whatever. It's not, it doesn't phase him. Who cares? You know?

[00:33:20] I don't know what they were showing him, but a guy with a knife or brain splattered somewhere, you know, like he didn't care about that kind of stuff because, um, that side of his brain's been trained already. He even said, he is like, Hey, like, I overworked it now. He's chilling. You know? 

[00:33:33] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:33:33] Eldar: And that's what happened.

[00:33:34] Katherine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

[00:33:35] Eldar: You know, because he was able to tap into it so many times and really examine that for himself and prepare him, prepare himself to the degree of like, nothing phases him like that. Like this is just regular shit. Like he, you know? Yeah. And the way he speaks about dying and death. It was interesting.

[00:33:50] And I think that he has actually not, he's not crazy at all. I think he's got a very healthy understanding of what the fuck life and death is. 

[00:33:57] Katherine: I think he really does like, not have any like, you know, hold no attachment. 

[00:34:01] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:34:02] Katherine: Like he really lives by that. You know, he's not attaching himself to anything really.

[00:34:07] Eldar: But paradoxically he is. I think 

[00:34:08] Katherine: he lives in the moment, you know? 

[00:34:09] Eldar: No, paradoxically he is because he's attaching himself to a very specific thing. 

[00:34:12] Katherine: Oh, well, for the goal, his passion, his passion, his, his pa. And that's 

[00:34:15] Eldar: important to him because 

[00:34:15] Katherine: he's 

[00:34:16] Eldar: having fun 

[00:34:16] Katherine: and he's enjoying himself, but so much so that he puts the passion before like survival.

[00:34:20] Correct. Like, you know, before his life. Yeah. You know. No, but which is very interesting. That's the thing. 

[00:34:23] Mike: And that's, that was like a, he, I don't think he looks at it like that, but that was a big thing that made me think about it. Like obviously like, um, it made me think like if I go open that wall and I don't like die in my sword.

[00:34:36] Right. I'm not gonna die if I climb that wall. 

[00:34:38] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:34:38] Mike: But if I don't go out there and like, in a sense die. 

[00:34:40] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:34:42] Mike: Then what am I living, living for? 

[00:34:43] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:34:44] Mike: Like if I don't go out there and die, meaning killing that identity of myself. 

[00:34:47] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:34:48] Mike: That's been running me. Yeah. Not give a hundred percent effort. 

[00:34:51] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:34:51] Mike: Then what's the point of my life?

[00:34:52] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:34:53] Mike: Why would I be, why should I continue to live? There's nothing to live for. 

[00:34:55] It's 

[00:34:55] Eldar: not worth it. Unexamined life is not worth living. And that's, and for him, for Alex, 

[00:35:00] Mike: yeah. 

[00:35:00] Eldar: He's constantly examining that line Yeah. For himself. 

[00:35:04] Mike: So that, 

[00:35:04] Eldar: that, and that's why he doesn't waver at all. So his girlfriend who's like in love with him, you know, like 

[00:35:10] Mike: Yeah.

[00:35:10] Eldar: You know, obviously has to live with the fact that this guy can't die at any moment. Yeah. But there's respect there because he's explained to her what, like, there's no other way for me to live. Like, yeah, this is who I am and I can't, from that he really stands on his business. 

[00:35:23] Mike: Yeah. That's, it's 

[00:35:23] Eldar: very interesting 

[00:35:25] Mike: that that thing is, it made me more, even more like.

[00:35:29] Get deeper into my, into like the, like killing off my own identity mm-hmm. That I've been living for a very long time. 

[00:35:35] Eldar: Identifying with, 

[00:35:36] Mike: yeah. Identifying with for a very long time. And that made me think about it, like, yeah. More and more. And I don't think it's by accident. Mm-hmm. I think because it's, we've been talking a lot about overcoming fears and 

[00:35:45] Eldar: Yeah.

[00:35:46] Mike: And, you know, a lot of these things we spoke about, I think it's slowly been progressing towards diet to finally realize like, if I don't go out there and I don't die on that, on that wall. 

[00:35:54] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:35:55] Mike: I can't go home feeling like a man. 

[00:35:57] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:35:57] Mike: Like a 

[00:35:58] Eldar: Oh, so you, you transitioning into a woman. 

[00:36:01] Mike: I can't feel like I, yeah.

[00:36:03] Like I, yeah. Like I can't feel like I'm, I'm a man, I can't be proud of myself. Yeah. I can't have any like, esteem about myself that, that I came out there and I punked out because I was scared. Yeah. But the scared is fake. I've been up there fucking 20 times. I fell off that same fucking hold. 

[00:36:16] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:36:17] Mike: I'm not gonna die.

[00:36:18] Eldar: Yeah. It's 

[00:36:19] Mike: true. I might sprain my ankle. 

[00:36:20] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:36:20] Mike: I'm not gonna die. I might hurt myself. I'm not gonna die. 

[00:36:23] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:36:23] Mike: But if I'm scared to die of something that's unlikely. 

[00:36:26] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:36:27] Mike: That means that thing within me is still driving me. 

[00:36:29] Eldar: That's right. 

[00:36:30] Mike: I like, I don't wanna live with that. 

[00:36:32] Eldar: Correct. 

[00:36:32] Mike: You know, 

[00:36:33] Eldar: and I think that's the right approach and that's why I'm, I'm excited for that.

[00:36:35] Mike: That's right. Yeah. And I think that's why, that's why Yeah. And I get up there, I'm still scared. 

[00:36:39] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:36:40] Mike: You know, I'm scared of shit, but I don't want to like, let him be in the driver's seat 

[00:36:44] Eldar: Yeah. Anymore. 

[00:36:46] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:36:46] Eldar: And I think that's, that's the thing that you're gonna be conditioning for a while now, you know?

[00:36:50] Yeah. To be able to condition that out. Mm-hmm. And I think that you'll see that if you actually are persistent, a persistent fucker when it comes to this kind of thing 

[00:36:57] Mike: mm-hmm. 

[00:36:58] Eldar: I think you can really rewire, uh, some of the, some of the nonsense that you've been living by that's not been serving you. Yeah.

[00:37:03] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:37:04] Eldar: But you have to be a persistent fucker. Yeah. You know, like Alex's. 

[00:37:07] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:08] Eldar: You 

[00:37:08] Mike: know? Yeah. Yeah. No, I think, I think that's for sure. You gotta, you gotta, yeah. I mean, to break such a long term standing belief system, it's gonna require some serious persistence, some character, 

[00:37:20] Katherine: a full-time job. 

[00:37:21] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:37:22] Eldar: Yeah.

[00:37:22] Yeah. 

[00:37:25] Mike: Yeah, but I, but it's also like, um, the self-development stuff, like other, in other areas where I've been trying to improve my life is, this is all from the same thing. 

[00:37:34] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:35] Mike: I think it's all from the same camp. Right. Undoing the stuff that I was doing that was not serving me. 

[00:37:40] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:37:41] Mike: And, uh, this is, I think is also a very big one.

[00:37:44] You know, the failure, the rejection. 

[00:37:46] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:47] Mike: Right. 

[00:37:47] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:37:48] Mike: The non learning, you know, from mistakes or overthinking something. Yeah. Like, oh, this is too hard, this hold. It's just like saying like, oh, this girl, I'm too scared to talk to her. 

[00:37:58] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:37:58] Mike: It's, it's, nothing's really changing. 

[00:38:01] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:38:01] Mike: It's just faces in people and holds and fucking, you know, it's all the same.

[00:38:06] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:38:07] Mike: It's all in my, like, my own mind that's stopping me from doing something. Or not even doing, just trying, just even 

[00:38:12] Eldar: trying 

[00:38:12] Mike: sometimes. Yeah. Just seeing like what it is. Yeah. 

[00:38:15] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:38:16] Mike: Go, go confirm to yourself that, you know, that holds, actually, I can't hold it because it's 

[00:38:21] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:38:21] Mike: Fucking one millimeter and my hands are not that strong actually.

[00:38:24] Yeah. 

[00:38:24] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:38:25] Mike: Don't look at the wall and say, nah, from here it doesn't look like it. 

[00:38:28] Katherine: Like touching the girls, remember. And then the thing, like, Alex would, would put his, like, finger on this like tiny thing and it would be holding him up and he is like, 

[00:38:36] Mike: yeah. 

[00:38:37] Katherine: Has nothing to save him from plummeting to the ground.

[00:38:40] That's crazy. Yeah. That you have to master that, that that hold, you know, 

[00:38:44] Mike: like a credit card size hold. 

[00:38:45] Eldar: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[00:38:46] Mike: Yeah, yeah. That, that's like a, I forgot I was saying. But yeah, it's all the same stuff. It's all from the same camp. 

[00:38:57] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:38:58] Mike: Of, yeah. Like just making the assumption and not acting. 

[00:39:03] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:39:03] Mike: Like, oh, that looks too hard.

[00:39:05] I'm not gonna try it. 

[00:39:06] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:39:07] Katherine: I've done that to myself 

[00:39:07] Mike: so many times. Oh, that girl's too cute. I'm scared to talk to her. Yeah. What's the difference between a girl? And obviously there's a big difference, but 

[00:39:13] Eldar: Yeah, 

[00:39:14] Mike: the, 

[00:39:14] Eldar: I think that Asian girl in the elevator. I think she had the hots for you, bro. 

[00:39:17] Mike: I think so too.

[00:39:18] She was strange though. 

[00:39:20] Eldar: She was coming onto you, man. 

[00:39:21] Mike: I thought so too. Yeah, I definitely picked up on that. 

[00:39:24] Eldar: Good. 

[00:39:24] Mike: She was like, uh, 

[00:39:25] Eldar: yeah, she 

[00:39:26] Mike: was funny. 

[00:39:26] Eldar: She didn't want to, she had the mask on. We, 

[00:39:28] Mike: yeah. 

[00:39:28] Eldar: We're like, what's the gig? You know, COVID is over, you know, what do we don't know? You know? 

[00:39:32] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:39:33] Eldar: Well, and she's like, why you have shorts on?

[00:39:34] Yeah. And she looked at Mike's crotch and then the gig goes up. 

[00:39:39] Katherine: You're always so weird about this thing. Well, I mean, look for a lot of people are sick. Maybe she's just being safe in a public place. I 

[00:39:47] Mike: don't Fine, 

[00:39:47] Eldar: but like, you know, 

[00:39:48] Mike: so 

[00:39:48] she's 

[00:39:48] Katherine: a weird, I think it's probably a weird, uh, weird, you know, it's, it's like January and it's really cold.

[00:39:54] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:39:55] Mike: No, no. She was on the thing, on the, on the, about to climb. No, she was in the elevator, like already dressed to climb. Mm-hmm. It's not like she just came from outside and she was cold. 

[00:40:07] Katherine: Oh 

[00:40:07] Eldar: yeah. So she was 

[00:40:07] Mike: working out in the mask. She was working out in the mask and everything. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:40:11] Katherine: Oh, I don't know how.

[00:40:11] Eldar: And she was rubbing down all the machines. She was, yeah, she was rubbing down. She was, oh, I mean, guys, 

[00:40:15] Mike: come on. She was rubbing everything down. 

[00:40:16] Eldar: Like she had a whole thing. 

[00:40:17] Katherine: Then why would you even, like, question, why she had a mask? Obviously she's paranoid about, oh, you have to ask 

[00:40:22] Toliy: her about the mask. 

[00:40:24] Eldar: Well, 'cause we, we were, we were, we opened the elevator and we walk in and then she said something Right, something cheeky.

[00:40:31] I don't remember what she said. Yeah. And then we're like, Hey, why were you wearing a mask? Kinda like, yo, like, do we not know something? Something's going around. And and she goes, why are you wearing shorts to Mike? Or whatever, you know? 

[00:40:41] Katherine: Oh, that was her comeback to you 

[00:40:42] Eldar: guys? 

[00:40:42] Katherine: Yeah. And what, what did you guys say?

[00:40:43] Like, she didn't wanna ans answer your question, so 

[00:40:46] Eldar: she just, and Mike said, my balls are too big to climb in the pants. Yeah. He said, no you didn't. I'm make himself. No. He said, damn. He said, it's Uncom. 

[00:40:56] Katherine: I was just gonna say like, damn, Mike is rusty. Like, we need to work on this. Not a good 

[00:41:01] Eldar: thing of mine. Yeah.

[00:41:01] This 

[00:41:02] Katherine: is not good. No, 

[00:41:02] Eldar: no. It's uncomfortable to, to, to, you know, to climb in pants, you know, she's like, oh no. Like I scraped myself. So she was wearing pants, you know? Yeah. 

[00:41:10] Katherine: Mm-hmm. See, each person has a reason for what? For what they're doing. 

[00:41:14] Eldar: Oh yeah. My mom always said each cycle has their own program. 

[00:41:17] Mike: Yeah.

[00:41:18] Eldar: What? Yeah. You don't dunno. 

[00:41:19] Katherine: It, we each is each crazy with their own movie. In their head. Movie. Yeah. There you go. 

[00:41:26] Eldar: Same thing. Same thing. Same thing. Yeah. 

[00:41:28] Mike: So. Yeah. 

[00:41:30] Eldar: Alright. Yeah. So yeah. The girls, yeah. 

[00:41:32] Mike: Yeah. It's all the same. It's all like the failure to act, the, uh, failure to of rejection. 

[00:41:37] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:41:39] Mike: Yeah. It's, it's all in, in my head, obviously.

[00:41:43] And, and we knew that. 

[00:41:45] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:41:46] Mike: But the f the, the fear of not doing it now look, with the rock climbing is not trying and not giving effort. 

[00:41:53] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:41:53] Mike: And not at, at least not even, not even trying, but I think having an honest conversation 

[00:41:57] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:41:58] Mike: With myself, that's becoming scary. 

[00:42:01] Eldar: Yeah. It's important to, I'm not okay with that.

[00:42:02] It is important to note though, like obviously you also don't want to be over, over the, what is it called, over your head with certain climbs, right? 

[00:42:10] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:42:11] Eldar: Trying v tens for example. You know, if the rating is out of V one to V 10 is also silly. Like, I'm not trying that, like Sure. Maybe I'll try to, I'll take a look at it, but it's like, it's ridiculous.

[00:42:19] Yeah. We're not there yet, you know what I mean? But. Having a negative attitude, those v threes, which you've been doing, or V fours or V fives even. 

[00:42:27] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:42:27] Eldar: It's, you know, uncalled for, so you should definitely challenge those. Yeah. But you know, and obviously if you're injured also. Yeah. Right. If you're injured, you know, measure your pain, how much you can and cannot take.

[00:42:36] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:42:36] Eldar: You know, and then ask yourself, Hey, am I hiding behind the pain as an excuse? 

[00:42:40] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:42:41] Eldar: Is it really that bad? Right? 

[00:42:43] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:42:43] Eldar: Or, or can I, can I push a little bit and see where I'm at? 

[00:42:46] Mike: Yeah, 

[00:42:47] Eldar: yeah. You know, so like for 

[00:42:47] Mike: sure 

[00:42:48] Eldar: you have to find that middle ground to your, for yourself where, 

[00:42:50] Mike: and 

[00:42:50] Eldar: I look, let's not hurt ourselves.

[00:42:52] You know what I 

[00:42:53] Mike: mean? I'm discovering that too. Yeah. I'm trying to be honest. Like some of the climbs that, and that's 

[00:42:56] Eldar: the most important thing. I think if you are honest with yourself. I think that's where you can 

[00:43:00] Mike: start. Even, even, I think I told you yesterday. 

[00:43:02] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:43:02] Mike: Even though it was a climb of E one.

[00:43:04] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:43:04] Mike: It's like I did it maybe three to four times. It's very easy. It's a one, but it's a little high. 

[00:43:09] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:43:10] Mike: And one of the times that I went up there, I went, you know, you weren't there. I went there and I did it, but I was not myself happy with the way I felt up there. 

[00:43:18] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:43:18] Mike: Like, I wanted to feel more confident 

[00:43:20] Eldar: Yeah.

[00:43:20] Mike: And myself, that it wasn't scaring me, so I felt like I needed to go try it again. 

[00:43:23] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:43:24] Mike: And do it again. But like with like that confidence 

[00:43:27] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:43:27] Mike: Of like, Hey, I'm here. It's fine. 

[00:43:28] Eldar: I got the answer. 

[00:43:29] Mike: Okay. 

[00:43:30] Eldar: All right. So at when I was young 

[00:43:33] Mike: mm-hmm. 

[00:43:33] Eldar: Called OCD or whatever it was. 

[00:43:36] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:43:36] Eldar: Okay. 

[00:43:36] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:43:37] Eldar: When I was young, I used to like to jump.

[00:43:39] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:43:40] Eldar: I jumped everywhere, you know, I mean mm-hmm. That was one of the reasons why I think I liked basketball too. 

[00:43:43] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:43:44] Eldar: Okay. So, I don't know how old was, but obviously I was still in my country. Mm-hmm. So I was be definitely not more than 11 or 12 years old, so probably nine, 10, whatever, you know, just a young kid running around or whatever, 

[00:43:55] Mike: Uhhuh.

[00:43:55] Eldar: But I used to like to jump and I used to set up these little, um, little, um, challenges for myself inside my head 

[00:44:03] Mike: mm-hmm. 

[00:44:04] Eldar: To like jump from here to there mm-hmm. From this line to that line, from this line to that line, or jump on top of this ledge. 

[00:44:09] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:10] Eldar: And obviously as you walking around, you can do a lot of this, you know, like mm-hmm.

[00:44:13] This like little parkour quote unquote. Yeah. Yeah. That you're doing, you know? Mm-hmm. With yourself. And I would do this nonstop in my head. 

[00:44:19] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:19] Eldar: And there was a conversation that I was having in my head that if I didn't do it or if I didn't like the way I did it, I have to go back and I have to finish it.

[00:44:27] Mm. And I have to do it. In such a way where I'm actually happy with it. Mm-hmm. And if I don't, something internally did not allow me to continue. That's it. 

[00:44:36] Mike: Mm. 

[00:44:37] Eldar: Code OCD code, whatever it was. Mm. Yeah. That was a program in my head. 

[00:44:41] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:44:41] Eldar: Already to continue to challenge myself. 

[00:44:43] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:43] Eldar: And I couldn't cheat myself, bro.

[00:44:45] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:45] Eldar: I could not, 

[00:44:46] Mike: yeah. 

[00:44:47] Eldar: It was an OCD thing. Mm-hmm. Where it's got stuck where it's like, if I wanted to jump from here to that line and I didn't, I have to go back. 

[00:44:55] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:55] Eldar: And sometimes I remember doing this 20, 30 times, and I'm sure I probably, if anybody else looked, you know, like, what the fuck is this kid doing?

[00:45:02] Mm-hmm. It probably looked weird to them. 

[00:45:04] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:45:06] Eldar: I remember doing this, bro. 

[00:45:07] Mike: Yeah. I remember you told me about this. I 

[00:45:08] Eldar: told you about 

[00:45:08] Mike: this. You were jumping between the tiles on the thing on the lines. Yes. 

[00:45:11] Eldar: First it was one tile, then it was two tiles or whatever, whatever, you know. Mm-hmm. And I kept increasing stuff, you know?

[00:45:16] Mm-hmm. 

[00:45:16] Eldar: And that was like my own challenge internally. Mm-hmm. I wasn't doing this with anyone. 

[00:45:19] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:45:20] Eldar: This was just with me when I was just walking from one place to another. Mm-hmm. And I'd have these fucking things. Yeah. That I have to accomplish. Mm-hmm. Like these little missions sick in my head. 

[00:45:28] Mike: Yeah.

[00:45:28] Eldar: And if I didn't, I would either beat myself up or continue to do it. 

[00:45:32] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:45:33] Eldar: And so I get it. 

[00:45:33] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:45:35] Eldar: Yeah. So now I think that you have this now if you can develop that thing now. Mm-hmm. That like, okay. I wasn't happy with that climb. I know I have more in you. 

[00:45:42] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:45:42] Eldar: That's it. 

[00:45:43] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. No, and 

[00:45:45] Eldar: also this is what, this is what reminded me of my fucking, what I don't remember shit when I was young, bro.

[00:45:50] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:45:50] Eldar: I remember this when you started talking about that. 

[00:45:52] Mike: Mm. Yeah. 

[00:45:53] Eldar: You see when you said, Hey, now my internal mind is telling me that this wasn't good enough, bro, go back and fucking do it. 

[00:45:59] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:46:00] Eldar: I've had that. 

[00:46:00] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:46:01] Eldar: Back then. 

[00:46:02] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. 

[00:46:04] Eldar: And it's solidified in something. 

[00:46:06] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:46:07] Eldar: Where I was ready for failure.

[00:46:08] I was ready for whatever I ready to keep trying. Mm-hmm. And persevering in this thing. 

[00:46:12] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:46:13] Eldar: That's why competition comes like easy to me. 

[00:46:15] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:46:15] Eldar: Or I like it. I thrive in it because I've competed against myself this whole time. You know, when I was growing up. 

[00:46:21] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. 

[00:46:22] Eldar: It was weird. 

[00:46:23] Mike: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:24] Eldar: Now that I look back at it, like if I, I see a kid doing this, like, you want to probably ask him like, what the fuck are you doing? 

[00:46:29] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:46:30] Eldar: But like, he's onto something. 

[00:46:31] Mike: Yeah. Hmm. 

[00:46:32] Eldar: You know? 

[00:46:33] Mike: Yeah. That's, that's interesting. 

[00:46:35] Eldar: And if you pay attention 

[00:46:36] Mike: mm-hmm. 

[00:46:37] Eldar: Obviously to the, the ones that are good 

[00:46:39] Mike: mm-hmm. 

[00:46:39] Eldar: Climbers and stuff like that, you see them drilling, bro.

[00:46:42] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:46:43] Eldar: They're drilling, 

[00:46:44] Mike: they're not happy when they do the same climb over and over. Yeah. They still, I mean, that guy, that Tommy's weird. He might be a little off. 

[00:46:49] Eldar: Yes. 

[00:46:51] Mike: But he might be doing it for the same reason though. Yeah. But he is a little off, 

[00:46:53] Eldar: I'm telling you. 

[00:46:54] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:46:55] Eldar: They're drilling it, man. 

[00:46:56] Mike: He is not happy with Yeah.

[00:46:58] That's the way he did it. And you know yourself, you judge yourself. Correct. When you learn, when you have that, when you develop the ability to judge yourself and your effort, then you can, you know, 

[00:47:08] Eldar: yeah. 

[00:47:09] Mike: Then you're onto it. 

[00:47:09] Eldar: That's it. 

[00:47:11] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:47:11] Eldar: Yeah. I think that if you, if there's, if you like it, obviously I, I was, I don't remember it being a burden.

[00:47:16] I remember it being very nice and pleasant for me. Mm-hmm. It was just one of those things where I wanted to do it. And then when I did, I also wanted to show it off to my mom. 

[00:47:24] Mike: Mm. 

[00:47:24] Eldar: I remember also showing off to my mom, like, oh, I touched that thing. Watch mom. I'm gonna touch that thing. You know what I mean?

[00:47:29] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:47:29] Eldar: And I would jump nonstop, ask my mom, she'll tell you, 

[00:47:32] Mike: mm, 

[00:47:32] Eldar: ma mom look, and she's doing her own shit, talking to her friend or whatever. I'm like, ma, watch now I'm gonna do it. Mm-hmm. And I go, and I jump and I touch that 

[00:47:39] Mike: thing. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[00:47:41] Eldar: I'm telling you, this was like a thing. Sick. Yeah. And that was my own fun internally.

[00:47:46] I wasn't like playing with anyone, like I said. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I was by myself, trying to get that touch, touch that thing. When I did, I wanted to show it off as well to my mom or who, who, whoever loved me or who cared for 

[00:47:55] Mike: me Yeah. 

[00:47:56] Eldar: Or whatever, whoever I esteemed. See, that's it. Yeah. You know, that's it. Yeah.

[00:48:03] So maybe it's OCD. Whatever you wanna call that, but yeah, that's the internal thing that you might be developing now, 

[00:48:10] Katherine: I think. Fixation. 

[00:48:11] Eldar: Fixation. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:48:14] Katherine: Accomplished. 

[00:48:14] Eldar: Yeah. It was an internal dialogue with someone else in inside of me that you're not, you're not allowed to go anywhere. It was like a prison that I've built in my own mind to make sure that I actually get it done and when I got it done, everything's relieved and then I can go about my 

[00:48:30] Katherine: business.

[00:48:30] Doesn't that remind me a little bit about, uh, Alex the 

[00:48:32] Eldar: Yes. 

[00:48:32] Katherine: The guy from the free solo. 

[00:48:34] Eldar: Yes. He talks about the same thing, like 

[00:48:36] Katherine: think about it. Remember the day he was supposed to climb El Cap and then like 

[00:48:41] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:48:41] Katherine: He decided not to do it. 

[00:48:43] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:48:44] Katherine: And he did it like a year later. 

[00:48:45] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:48:46] Katherine: I don't think he wasn't able to like.

[00:48:48] Get that outta his mind. Yeah. Until he did it. Correct. Like he had to do it like he had to. He had 

[00:48:53] Eldar: to do it. He had to 

[00:48:53] Katherine: get it done, he just had to do it. 

[00:48:54] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:48:55] Katherine: You 

[00:48:55] Eldar: know, because living after that, if you didn't do it, it's forever a problem. 

[00:48:59] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:48:59] Eldar: In your mind. Yeah. It's like a, if you get stuck on that, yeah.

[00:49:01] It's a bug, bro. 

[00:49:02] Katherine: Yeah. It's a crazy thing. 

[00:49:03] Eldar: And I had that. 

[00:49:04] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:49:05] Eldar: You know, with small things. Obviously I wasn't training lcap, but 

[00:49:08] Katherine: yeah. 

[00:49:08] Eldar: Little things that was bothering me, 

[00:49:10] Katherine: I 

[00:49:10] Eldar: fix 

[00:49:11] Katherine: it too, 

[00:49:12] Eldar: you know, 

[00:49:12] Katherine: not on levels like that, but like fix 

[00:49:14] Eldar: it, you know? But I enjoyed it. It was an enjoyable experience. So, no, I 

[00:49:18] Mike: feel like, so that 

[00:49:20] Eldar: done it.

[00:49:20] I think if you could tap in mm-hmm. 

[00:49:21] Mike: Like 

[00:49:22] Eldar: I think that you can really enjoy that experience. 

[00:49:23] Mike: No. The times that I like, again, this is recently for me, Uhhuh, by the times that I have like got stuck. 

[00:49:28] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:49:29] Mike: I feel good because I know like 

[00:49:30] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[00:49:32] Mike: I, I know I'm doing the right thing mm-hmm. Towards like, for myself, like 

[00:49:35] Eldar: Yeah.

[00:49:35] Mike: I'm not cheating myself. 

[00:49:37] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:49:37] Mike: You know, I wouldn't be, okay. Yeah. I'm not gonna die if good. Like that whole, that, that climb that I wanted to do. 

[00:49:42] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:49:43] Mike: I wanted to do it yesterday. Mm-hmm. But they removed it already. 

[00:49:45] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:49:46] Mike: So I'm like, all right, I'm not gonna like fucking like, throw a fit. Like this is what happened.

[00:49:50] This is like part of it. 

[00:49:51] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:49:51] Mike: But I like, uh, that was a hundred. My intention was to go there and do that, and do it, and be happy with the way I did it. 

[00:49:57] Eldar: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[00:49:58] Mike: You know? 

[00:49:59] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:50:00] Mike: So the, but the times that I've done it, um, pushed myself to like, you know, certain climbs. 

[00:50:06] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:50:07] Mike: Yeah. Even like certain, like, uh, I went like a couple weeks ago.

[00:50:09] You weren't, you wouldn't go with me and I, there was a couple, I was like, I don't like this one. 

[00:50:14] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:50:15] Mike: Like, it scares me, but I need to do it. 

[00:50:17] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:50:18] Mike: Again, even though I did it, I don't wanna do it again. Mm-hmm. Like, obviously the fear side of me doesn't wanna do it again. Yeah. But I'm like, yo, I gotta do it again.

[00:50:25] Yeah. Because I know that this is where, first of all, this is where I need to develop my character. Mm-hmm. And, and afterwards I feel, I feel like I'm proud of myself. 

[00:50:35] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:50:35] Mike: You know? 

[00:50:35] Eldar: Yeah. That's it. 

[00:50:36] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:50:37] Eldar: That part right there, where you finally are proud of, of yourself is the moment that's what you should be looking for.

[00:50:41] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:50:42] Katherine: That's confidence 

[00:50:42] Eldar: building. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:50:43] Mike: That's, 

[00:50:43] Eldar: and that's what he said's what I was saying. He said, I felt actually confident that I felt good about myself. 

[00:50:47] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:50:48] Eldar: You know? Now imagine to keep doing it over and over and over and over and, and over and over again. 

[00:50:53] Katherine: If, if you keep doing that, I think that you'll eventually like see yourself differently.

[00:50:59] Eldar: Oh, no. A lot 

[00:51:00] more 

[00:51:00] Katherine: confidently. 

[00:51:00] Eldar: You won't see yourself differently. You'll just be different. You 

[00:51:02] Katherine: be different. 

[00:51:03] Eldar: Yeah. And you'll be seen differently by others. 

[00:51:05] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:51:06] Eldar: Right. You know, you know what I'm saying? You're doing it for yourself. 

[00:51:10] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:51:10] Eldar: But naturally it's gonna be perceived. By others. 

[00:51:14] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:51:14] Eldar: You know? 

[00:51:15] Mike: Yeah.

[00:51:15] It's a very interesting, like, uh, progression, like, um, of the 

[00:51:18] Eldar: Yeah. Like, Adam, I'm not gonna have to babysit your ass anymore. You know what I mean? 

[00:51:21] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:51:21] Eldar: You know, I'll convince you of anything. Yeah. Like of your own abilities, like you're gonna know. 

[00:51:25] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:51:26] Eldar: You know? Yeah. 

[00:51:27] Mike: It's an interesting progression of like the, the, the whole rock climbing journey so far.

[00:51:32] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:51:32] Mike: Because like my initial experience when I came in, it was like, okay, this is cool, this is fun. 

[00:51:38] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:51:38] Mike: And it was like the easy stuff, right? 

[00:51:40] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:51:40] Mike: But I think as we progressed, we got stronger. We got better. 

[00:51:43] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:51:43] Mike: Right. It was like in the beginning it was like, well, this is a three or a four. We've only been climbing for a few months.

[00:51:49] Like 

[00:51:49] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[00:51:49] Mike: I'm not expect you to like to get these because my hands are not that strong or I don't know, enough technique, whatever. 

[00:51:56] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:51:56] Mike: Right. So the first progression was like, this is really fun because it's new. It's interesting. It's like, I also always like overcoming my fear of heights and I feel like I'm always like mm-hmm.

[00:52:05] Pushing that limit. 

[00:52:06] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:52:06] Mike: Even though I'm still always scared of heights, but I always do shit that requires heights. 

[00:52:10] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:52:11] Mike: So that was like the first stage, and it was very exciting every time I wanted to go because I wanted to overcome that fear. 

[00:52:17] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:52:18] Mike: And, and then as like, we became better, you know, um, I felt like a little bit, maybe, maybe stagnant because if I don't pro like progress my mind, obviously I didn't know this at the time, but I'm explaining to you in like, in like a hindsight 

[00:52:37] Toliy: mm-hmm.

[00:52:37] Mike: If I don't progress my mind 

[00:52:39] Toliy: mm-hmm. 

[00:52:40] Mike: There's nothing for me to do here. Yeah. Because like the ones and twos, I can get 'em done easy. 

[00:52:46] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:52:46] Mike: The threes, yeah. I do most of it, I'm sure. Mm-hmm. But like, I felt like the mind didn't catch up 

[00:52:53] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[00:52:53] Mike: With what needed to be done. 

[00:52:54] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:52:55] Mike: So 

[00:52:56] Eldar: you've leveled up your mind now?

[00:52:57] Mike: Uh, yeah. So in the beginning I was going for one thing. 

[00:53:00] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:53:01] Mike: Then in the middle I had like a little 

[00:53:02] Eldar: setback, 

[00:53:03] Mike: like a little flat moment. 

[00:53:05] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:53:05] Mike: But now I feel like, uh, the rock climbing experience has completely, again, changed for me. 

[00:53:10] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:53:10] Mike: Where it's like, um, I'm going for different reasons. Before I was excited because it's new.

[00:53:14] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:53:15] Mike: It's fun. It's exercise. 

[00:53:16] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:53:17] Mike: It's a little height challenging. Fear challenging. 

[00:53:19] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:53:19] Mike: Now I'm in a different place where I'm excited to go. 

[00:53:22] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:53:22] Mike: For a different reason, which is now what I've discovered. 

[00:53:26] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:53:26] Mike: So it's like it's evolving 100%. No, I, I wasn't. Obviously I wasn't expect 

[00:53:31] Eldar: you wasn't going for that.

[00:53:32] You weren't 

[00:53:32] Mike: expecting that. I wasn't going for 

[00:53:33] Eldar: that. Yeah. 

[00:53:33] Mike: But I think the, like the stagnation and the, 

[00:53:36] Eldar: you think the rock climbing is evolving or you evolving? 

[00:53:38] Mike: Me and the rock climbing? 

[00:53:39] Eldar: Yes. Yes. Good. 

[00:53:41] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:53:41] Eldar: All right. You passed that quiz, A popup quiz. 

[00:53:43] Mike: Yeah. So I think it, here's a cracker. Interesting. Oh, nice.

[00:53:47] Tasty. 

[00:53:48] Eldar: What's your problem? 

[00:53:51] Mike: Yeah. So I think it's interesting, um, uh, like the excitement is back, but it's for like a different reason. 

[00:53:59] Eldar: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[00:54:02] Mike: Yeah. I'm more so, yeah. I think it's like bridging the gap between what you believe I can do and versus what I believe I can do 

[00:54:08] Eldar: Well. Yeah. 

[00:54:08] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:54:09] Eldar: Well, that's what it is.

[00:54:10] Yeah. Mine was always like, yo, like, you know, this is like realistic. 

[00:54:13] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:54:14] Eldar: Yeah. Very like, you can do this, you know? 

[00:54:15] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:54:16] Eldar: But I was always challenged with the negative Nancy. 

[00:54:18] Mike: Yeah. Negative stuff. 

[00:54:19] Eldar: Yeah. You know? 

[00:54:20] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:54:21] Eldar: So 

[00:54:22] Mike: I think like, um, because I physically hit that wall mm-hmm. And, um, because the mental was stopping.

[00:54:29] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:54:29] Mike: I had to like, I think 

[00:54:30] Eldar: Well you didn't No, no, no. You didn't ever hit, uh, I think, uh, hit the physical wall yet. You actually hit the mental wall. The mental wall before you hit the physical wall. The mental wall. Because I told you, your wall is much higher. Yeah. Much further than 

[00:54:40] Mike: Yeah. I hit that mental wall.

[00:54:42] Eldar: Yeah. Mental wall. 

[00:54:43] Mike: And then it kind of froze me. Yes. It like stopped me. I stopped like, I was like, like it, like it was kind of like, not that it's boring, but it's like I would only look forward to new climbs Oh. Or new routes. 

[00:54:52] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:54:53] Mike: And I would not be so excited to go as I, as I was in the beginning when we started going.

[00:54:57] Yeah. Because like, yeah. Because of that whole thing. Because I mentally couldn't progress. 

[00:55:02] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:55:03] Mike: I couldn't push through it. 

[00:55:05] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:55:06] Mike: But I like, not that I knew that I can do more, but it just kind of like wasn't as exciting. 

[00:55:11] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:55:13] Mike: Um, for me 

[00:55:15] Eldar: it sounds like you have to win the next competition. 

[00:55:18] Mike: Yeah, I do want to go to more competition 

[00:55:19] Eldar: too.

[00:55:19] There you go. You excited about that, right? Yeah. Yeah. Naturally, I think that you, when you develop a healthier relationship with a competition with yourself mm-hmm. Within it failures or not, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. You're gonna wanna like, Hey, I want to test myself, and I don't want to be like any anymore, like the old guy, you know?

[00:55:34] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:55:35] Eldar: So you should get excited about that. Yeah. So that's, that means you're doing something wrong. I think it's a good indicator that you're excited for the next challenge. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, 

[00:55:41] Mike: I 

[00:55:41] Eldar: definitely, I'm too, after finishing the first one, I'm like, I can't, I can't wait for the next one. 

[00:55:45] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. You 

[00:55:46] Eldar: know, it's, it's cool as shit.

[00:55:48] Mike: Yeah. Because the first competition, I definitely didn't give like 

[00:55:51] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:55:52] Mike: Yout know what to do. You can't, 

[00:55:53] Eldar: you can't, with shorts full of shit. 

[00:55:55] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:55:58] Toliy: Shorts full of shit. 

[00:55:59] Mike: You know what I mean? 

[00:55:59] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:56:00] Mike: I didn't, yeah. He crapped 

[00:56:01] Eldar: his pants before he even put his shorts on. 

[00:56:02] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:56:03] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:56:04] Mike: It was definitely, yeah. But it was, I mean, it was good.

[00:56:07] It was a good experience. It was good. It was experience, it was fun. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 

[00:56:12] Eldar: I learned too. So, 

[00:56:14] Mike: yeah, I can't, I can't wait to go for another 

[00:56:16] Eldar: one. 

[00:56:16] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:56:18] Eldar: Alright. Well, what do we got? I think we said a lot. Totally. 

[00:56:25] Toliy: Yeah. I mean, 

[00:56:26] Eldar: you weren't here, but I mentioned to Mike, I think, I know, I, I don't know the origins of my, like, empowerment or whatever, but when I was young, okay.

[00:56:34] Before I came to America, I would walk around, run around in the streets when I was little and I had this thing, I was, I had this internal conversation with myself that like, I, I love jumping everywhere where I would go, I jump touch this thing, jump over this, you know, little whatever, you know, this rock or this little like, um, tile on the floor, you know?

[00:56:55] And I always set myself challenges to do it. And if I didn't do it, I had to go back and do it many, many, many times until I do it. And I can't progress about my day or my life until I accomplish that thing. 

[00:57:06] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:57:06] Eldar: That I remember internally. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like it was installed in me. I had some kind of conversation with myself, almost somebody else living in my head, dictating to me what I can and cannot do.

[00:57:17] Mike: Mm. 

[00:57:18] Eldar: You understand? 

[00:57:19] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:57:19] Eldar: Like an actual thing. 

[00:57:21] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:57:21] Eldar: Conversation. It went away when I got older. 

[00:57:25] Mike: Mm-hmm. But 

[00:57:26] Eldar: I remember this now. Especially when you reflected on some stuff. 

[00:57:29] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:57:29] Eldar: It brought me back to that and I was like, oh shit, I did have that. 

[00:57:32] Mike: Mm. 

[00:57:33] Eldar: You know? 

[00:57:33] Mike: Yeah. I 

[00:57:34] Eldar: remember. I think that motherfucker right there is built my character.

[00:57:36] Mike: Mm. 

[00:57:37] Eldar: I don't know what you wanna call that. OCD. Yeah. Fixation, whatever it is. Mm-hmm. It was in me. 

[00:57:43] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:57:44] Eldar: I liked it. It was a good thing, you know, maybe it was weird to some. 

[00:57:48] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:57:49] Eldar: Maybe, like I said, if anybody else observed it would've like, oh shit, that's weird. 

[00:57:52] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:57:53] Eldar: But I had that, you know? 

[00:57:55] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:57:57] Eldar: Now that you potentially developing that language within yourself.

[00:58:01] Mm-hmm. I think it's a very interesting journey. 

[00:58:03] Mike: Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I think again. If you learn, you definitely become empowered. 

[00:58:11] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:58:12] Mike: You know, and I feel like empowered in in areas. 

[00:58:15] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:58:15] Mike: But I think like there's like that big boulder. 

[00:58:17] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:58:19] Mike: You know, that I've, that's been on my, uh, I've been caring for a long time.

[00:58:22] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:58:23] Mike: And I feel like this, this thing is gonna help me to finally shrink, offload it, 

[00:58:27] Eldar: shrink it, offload it. 

[00:58:28] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:58:28] Eldar: Make it more 

[00:58:29] Mike: and give me the empowerment that I think 

[00:58:31] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:58:32] Mike: I'm searching for that. I'd like to have Yeah. And I'd, that I'd like to feel. 

[00:58:36] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:58:37] Mike: You know? 

[00:58:38] Eldar: Okay. 

[00:58:39] Mike: And I think it's tied to definitely to failure and 

[00:58:41] Eldar: mm-hmm.

[00:58:43] Mike: Learning. 

[00:58:43] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:58:45] Mike: Definitely. That. 

[00:58:47] Eldar: Alright, well what are you, what are your, some of your thoughts, anything else on failure? Totally. 

[00:58:51] Toliy: Yeah. I just feel that like, um,

[00:58:57] the topic you is, it's even for me here, like failure, it's learning, you know, learning. Yeah. And, and it's like, uh, if you embrace the act of learn of learning. There is no failure. There is no like, uh, you know, like, um, 

[00:59:13] Eldar: so failure is irrelevant, but it's, it's such a big thing in a lot of people's lives. 

[00:59:17] Mike: It's like, uh, suffering though, right?

[00:59:19] Is suffering irrelevant A lot of times we need to suffer to learn. Right. So do we need to something? 

[00:59:24] Toliy: Well, I think suffering is like the inability to learn. Like it's No, it's a result 

[00:59:28] Mike: of not learning. Uh, 

[00:59:29] Toliy: yeah. It's a result of not. Yeah. Yeah. Like when you don't have the ability to learn mm-hmm. You then like project that through, through um, suffering, but, 

[00:59:38] Mike: but isn't a failing to learn suffering, is that what you said?

[00:59:42] Toliy: Well, it, the inability to learn the outcome becomes suffering. 

[00:59:48] Mike: Oh, the inability. Is it a failure as well though? Like if you're unable to, you're failing. Right? 

[00:59:52] Toliy: I don't think who, who's unable to learn though. Yeah. 

[00:59:55] Eldar: I don't 

[00:59:56] Toliy: think 

[00:59:56] Mike: that's like, ultimately nobody, but you know what I'm saying? It's, it is a delayed, sometimes 

[01:00:00] Eldar: it's delayed.

[01:00:01] Yeah. Sometimes it's delayed. 

[01:00:03] Toliy: Yeah. But like, yeah, for learning, you have to feel like you're learning. 

[01:00:06] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:00:06] Toliy: For, for it to feel, for it to be like learning almost. 

[01:00:09] Eldar: Can we say that? Learn. Okay. So can we say that learning is, transforming learning is what is actually transforming 

[01:00:17] Toliy: for, for like, for 

[01:00:19] Eldar: whoever is whoever is doing the learning, right?

[01:00:22] Like you're about to tell me a piece of information that I never knew about. Mm-hmm. Before. I used to be this old LD A and now you're gonna gimme this information. I'm gonna have still LD A, but now I have this other piece of information. I can potentially use this information and be different 

[01:00:37] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:00:37] Eldar: Do different things with this information.

[01:00:39] So I am a new person, so I've transformed from being an old ldar, but now I'm LR plus. This information that you've given me, that I've learned 

[01:00:46] Toliy: Well, yeah. That, that's what learning is, is being able to 

[01:00:49] Eldar: transform. 

[01:00:50] Toliy: Yeah. To be able to, but, but you have to, I think, know how to be able to add to yourself and not, like, if, if you can't learn, it means that like the information is not retaining 

[01:01:02] Eldar: Yeah.

[01:01:03] Toliy: Properly. Yeah. 

[01:01:04] Eldar: It's not doing, 

[01:01:05] Toliy: don't properly retain information. You don't feel that you're transforming or evolving. 

[01:01:09] Eldar: Evolving. 

[01:01:10] Toliy: Yeah. You need to have that, like you could be learning and progressing. Mm-hmm. But if you don't feel that way, 

[01:01:15] Eldar: yeah. 

[01:01:16] Toliy: It means that it like the, um, 

[01:01:19] Eldar: as disconnect, 

[01:01:19] Toliy: the steps are not properly aligning 

[01:01:22] Eldar: Yeah.

[01:01:22] Toliy: In, in, in that way. 

[01:01:24] Eldar: I agree. 

[01:01:24] Toliy: So, yeah. Like. To me, it's, again, it's, it's like, um, being present enough to give yourself the opportunity to, uh, learn. And there's plenty of opportunity every single day. But I think a big culprit in, in general is that you only start thinking about these things if you ever start thinking about them when you like, are a little bit older, and by the time you're a little bit older, you already have a lot of subconscious ways of doing things and subconscious ha habits, nonsense and things that are just fly over your head as to how you operate and how you do things.

[01:02:01] But those things that fly over your head, that's where a lot of these, um, incorrect perceptions lie. And it's really difficult to see things that you like to be able to, like, you have to ultimately see things that you can't see currently. Yeah. Like that, that's the goal, right? 

[01:02:20] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:02:20] Toliy: Is to see, like, see yeah.

[01:02:22] See things that you can't see. Yeah. But the process of doing that is really difficult based on the ways of doing things that you've already 

[01:02:31] Eldar: been doing. 

[01:02:32] Toliy: Like aligned for yourself program. 

[01:02:34] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. So what, what are you, what are your final thoughts then? What's the most important thing then? Um, keep an open mind.

[01:02:42] Yeah. 

[01:02:43] Toliy: I mean, so, so the 

[01:02:43] Eldar: most important, you mean 

[01:02:44] Toliy: the, the most important thing with, with learning. 

[01:02:47] Eldar: Well, yeah. Well, you said that if failing is not the important part here. Right. The most important thing is trying to open yourself up to learning, because that's where all the good stuff is. Right? What do you suggest?

[01:03:00] Right? Like, it's like the chicken or the egg. Yeah, the 

[01:03:02] Mike: chicken or the egg question. 

[01:03:03] Eldar: Right. 

[01:03:04] Mike: It's like if you would never failed, would you ever learn? 

[01:03:07] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:03:08] Mike: What would prompt you? If you're just living your life, you're cruising down the highway 

[01:03:11] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:03:11] Mike: Of life. And if there's no like, uh, you know, road bump, you just keep going.

[01:03:18] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:03:18] Mike: You, 

[01:03:18] Toliy: you need a, um.

[01:03:23] You need a relentless curiosity paired with being challenged. Where do you download 

[01:03:29] Eldar: that? You, you are the man. Yeah. We've talked about this a lot of times. What? And well, the curiosity and everything else that, you know, we've had so many podcasts on it. I agree with you. It's obviously the answer, but again, it's like, what does that give something digestible?

[01:03:40] Like no, what does that mean? Or 

[01:03:41] Toliy: something. Yeah, no, like, yeah, like the, uh, you, you, you need to be challenged like that. That's what it is. 'cause everything then stems off of that. Like, all those Like a challenge. 

[01:03:52] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:03:53] Toliy: Like a challenge. Presents so many opportunities to, again, to learn, to do things, to look at things differently, to open yourself up to learning, to be open-minded.

[01:04:02] Eldar: All for what, to become a person that you don't need to be challenged anymore, but be a curious mind that 

[01:04:08] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:04:08] Eldar: You're curious about everything. 

[01:04:10] Toliy: Yeah. But yeah. But I don't know if it's realistic to ever or not need to be challenged about anything, but 

[01:04:15] Eldar: you know what I'm saying? 

[01:04:15] Toliy: Yes. 

[01:04:16] Eldar: Right. You obviously want to be more of a curious person.

[01:04:18] Toliy: Yeah. I, I just feel that a lot of these. Poor habits or incorrect ways of looking at things. 

[01:04:23] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:04:24] Toliy: They happen because you were not challenged. 

[01:04:26] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:04:27] Toliy: Those, and, and that's also how in general in society, these like largely widespread beliefs or ways of doing things or feelings towards certain, like, I don't know, whatever ways of thinking causes, religions, politics.

[01:04:39] Right. Those are all just like a culmination of, of of, of a bunch of, um, people that were not challenged when and, and yeah. Like they weren't challenged while they were developing and what happens that they developed the wrong perception and now there's a lot of them. Yeah. Um, and they unfortunately are like just down the wrong path and it's very difficult to 

[01:05:04] Eldar: Yeah.

[01:05:04] Toliy: Break away from it because now, um, the older you get and the less like, like the older that you get and the less comfortable you are. Or familiar with being, um, challenged. Mm-hmm. The harder it is to be challenged to begin with. 

[01:05:20] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:05:21] Toliy: And if it's really hard for you to be like, if, if, if it's really difficult for you to be challenged, well then it's gonna be really difficult for you to learn.

[01:05:29] Eldar: Hence, you deserve a lots of pain. 

[01:05:32] Toliy: Yeah. No. 

[01:05:32] Eldar: And pain will come your way. Yes or no. 

[01:05:34] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:05:35] Eldar: It's inevitable. 

[01:05:36] Toliy: It's not like you deserve it. It just is. 

[01:05:37] Eldar: It just is. If you're 

[01:05:38] Mike: lucky, you can uh, so don't say deserve it. 

[01:05:41] Eldar: Well, you all deserve it. Yeah. 

[01:05:43] Mike: But if you're lucky, you can expedit it. How? Well, the thing I told you the other day, I was like, when I came off the wall, I'm like, started laughing.

[01:05:52] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:05:53] Mike: I shared my stupidity with you. 

[01:05:54] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:05:55] Mike: I expedited the expelling of that. No 

[01:05:59] Eldar: stupidity. Yeah. But you already, you already, you're already implementing the right stuff. We're talking about people that like mm-hmm. 

[01:06:04] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. No, but again, it's like also totally says stupid. 

[01:06:07] Eldar: You're being smart there.

[01:06:08] Mike: Sharing, sharing. Yeah. 

[01:06:09] Eldar: You're being smart there. Yeah. You are actually all like, Hey, like I, I understand that I'm going through some stuff and I'm willing to now be open about it. Yeah. And actually come forward. 

[01:06:17] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:06:18] Eldar: To try to start and ignite the learning process. We're talking about the people that are completely in the weeds here now that, um, yeah.

[01:06:26] The learning is pain. 

[01:06:27] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[01:06:27] Eldar: Their, that's their type of learning is gonna come 

[01:06:29] Toliy: through pain. 

[01:06:30] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:06:30] Toliy: Life. Yeah. Life will just always proof to you that it will be extremely difficult for you to live. Yeah. If you don't have the ability to learn like that. That's just what it is. 

[01:06:40] Eldar: So would you say learning is heaven?

[01:06:42] Toliy: Well learn. Yeah. Well like it, like, yeah. Learning is the key to a good life. But again, how many people feel that like, well, what are you guys talking about? Like learning is learning, you know? 

[01:06:53] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:06:53] Toliy: But this is a very complex subject that again 

[01:06:56] Eldar: Yes. 

[01:06:56] Toliy: Like. It's, it's always like a, but 

[01:06:58] Eldar: me and you, when we say the word learning, we are like, we kind of on the same page and understand 

[01:07:03] Toliy: Yes.

[01:07:03] Eldar: What we're talking 

[01:07:04] Toliy: about. Yeah. But the average person Yeah. That, that they didn't explore like that word of learning or like what it is or all, all, all that stuff. They view all of these things as very like 

[01:07:15] Eldar: whatever. 

[01:07:16] Toliy: Like what are you guys talking about? 

[01:07:17] Eldar: That is why we would suggest going to taking, if you are in college or in high school, should take a philosophy course.

[01:07:22] Mike: Mm. 

[01:07:23] Eldar: Because each philosopher Right, had their own philosophy. Mm-hmm. About life. You know what I mean? And usually, you know, those books, whatever they wrote, academia starts with what definitions. 

[01:07:35] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:07:36] Eldar: They say, you know, the learning, this is what, when I say the word learning, I mean this, when I say the word object, I mean this when I, you know, and all this other stuff.

[01:07:44] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:07:44] Eldar: They define before they go on to say their philosophy. 

[01:07:47] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:07:48] Eldar: They take this shit seriously. So I'm not sure if you're taking it seriously. Yeah. Maybe you're a philosopher at heart. 

[01:07:55] Toliy: Yeah. Like, it, it, it, it just always comes down to like, all the things in life are a lot of these little micro details that most people feel like are not a big deal.

[01:08:06] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:08:06] Toliy: And that, that just like, um, if, if you ask anybody, I think that it's just universally in all things, anyone who's actually successful at something, they're gonna tell you very basic things to do. If someone's telling you very, like, abstract or like complicated things, I don't think they're actually su successful.

[01:08:25] They're gonna tell you very basic things to like, do, and you're gonna prove that you're not able to do them. Yeah. Because those basic things are actually the hardest things 

[01:08:34] Eldar: to do 

[01:08:35] Toliy: for, for someone to grasp. Yeah. But they feel like they're no big deal. But all the successful people and everything, they always talk about small details.

[01:08:43] Mm-hmm. The small, like 10% influences the whole 90%. For example, it, it, like, it's not these big complex like, uh, like. Things and like all of these like, like different, like, uh, a aspects of it. It's very, very minute. Details that make the biggest impact. 

[01:09:04] Eldar: I 

[01:09:04] Toliy: agree with that. On the difference of, of like being average or great or amazing or 

[01:09:08] Eldar: mm-hmm.

[01:09:09] Toliy: Whatever it is. Yeah. 

[01:09:13] Eldar: All right, babe, you have anything for us on failure? 

[01:09:16] Katherine: No, I was in and out, so like I wasn't 

[01:09:19] Eldar: Okay, fine. You were floating today? 

[01:09:20] Katherine: Yeah, I was floating and working and stuff. 

[01:09:22] Eldar: Alright. Mike, anything else on failure? Did we hit it? Did we like, you know, grab it but it's tail? 

[01:09:32] Mike: Yeah. Yeah, I think we did.

[01:09:34] Eldar: We did. 

[01:09:35] Mike: Yeah, I think we did. I think it's, uh, 

[01:09:37] Eldar: what are your final thoughts on it then?

[01:09:43] Is failure dead your favorite quote? 

[01:09:45] Mike: Yeah. Listen, I thought that's what toy was gonna say in the beginning when he said he was gonna start with a bang. 

[01:09:49] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:09:50] Mike: Uh, yeah. If you're lucky enough, failure is dead for you. 

[01:09:57] Eldar: If you're lucky enough. Yeah. 

[01:09:58] Mike: If the failure Yeah. Is dead. 

[01:10:00] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:10:00] Mike: If just failure is dead for you, then yeah.

[01:10:04] But if the failure is learned is

[01:10:09] alive, then that's, that's no good. 

[01:10:14] Eldar: All right. Totally. 

[01:10:18] Toliy: Um,

[01:10:24] yeah, I don't know if I have like any, I'm trying to think, um, 

[01:10:27] Eldar: on learning then maybe expand more on learning if failure is too easy. 

[01:10:31] Toliy: Yeah. I just feel that like if, if, if you're a person, um, that after like list listening to this or just in general, like, um, if you have an issue with the word failure to begin with or maybe if you, if or or, or, or how about this?

[01:10:47] If you think that you are failing at things, which I would guess is. 90% or more of people, right? Mm-hmm. Like ev everyone feels like they're failing at something maybe that they're doing. 

[01:10:56] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:10:58] Toliy: Um, I would challenge those people to see if they're actually failing at something or, um, or, or, or, or they just some or, or is it just simply that they're not understanding something?

[01:11:09] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:11:10] Toliy: And I think that if you can prove that whatever that you take as your example, that you think you're failing at something and you get to a point where you can prove to yourself that you're just, um, not understanding something properly or doing something like improperly, I think it'll change, change your whole life forever.

[01:11:28] Eldar: I agree. 

[01:11:29] Toliy: Because then you'll actually see that you weren't actually failing, you were just missing information. You were just not learning properly. You were not informed. You were not informed. You were doing things wrong. You had the wrong perception. 

[01:11:40] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:11:41] Toliy: There therefore, like you were not failing. So if that's the case, why can't you apply that to everything in your life, 

[01:11:48] Eldar: correct.

[01:11:49] Toliy: That you feel that isn't good. 

[01:11:50] Eldar: I agree. I agree. I agree with Tony's advice. My final, final thoughts would be also around that. I'll piggyback off what he said and ultimately if, um, if you are a person, you know, I'm not gonna say what totally said, failing or feel as, you know, you scared of failing or whatever.

[01:12:06] Fear of failing if you're a person was not generally having fun, right? Generally in your day-to-day whatever, or whatever engagements that you get into, and you find yourself to be frustrated a lot of times, right? You probably don't have a healthy outlook or relationship with learning and failing. Your perception is probably skewed towards, uh, you know, self-doubt.

[01:12:29] You know, all the negative stuff. You know, you probably did this a long time ago that was never unchecked, you know, and I'm not sure if you need to track it back, but, you know, challenge yourself within the moment. They're like, look, I'm not having fun here. Why not? Mm-hmm. Right. And if maybe you can start from there, you know, if it feels like the stuff that you're doing or engaging in is frustrating you more than you having fun to, to me, it's a very easy indicator that, uh, you're not, you're not, you're not shooting in the right direction.

[01:12:59] So find a way to challenge yourself. 

[01:13:01] Toliy: Yeah. Like frustration is like a, like a retardation. 

[01:13:04] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:13:05] Toliy: You know, 

[01:13:06] Eldar: where versus having fun, you laugh and you enjoy yourself, you feel unconfident. Right? All those indicators show you that you're doing something right. It's fucking clear. Mm-hmm. But if you're not having fun, if you aggy aggravated, angry, frustrated, most of the time, those are the key indicators.

[01:13:22] To me, that's the black and white as I see it. You know, you probably got the whole perception wrong. Yeah. The whole understanding about the situation is incorrect because if you do get it right, there's no such thing as failure. There's an opportunity to learn unlimitedly. Yeah. Forever, 

[01:13:42] Toliy: which should be forever fun.

[01:13:43] Eldar: Which should be forever fun and enjoyable 

[01:13:46] Toliy: because how? How can it not? Yeah. 

[01:13:48] Eldar: Yeah. So if you are engaging in things that are not fun and you clearly can't extract fun from them, yeah. You have to examine your whole life or that specific thing, or drop it. 

[01:13:59] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like just start with one thing.

[01:14:02] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:14:02] Toliy: Really get to the bottom as to why that thing is happening. 

[01:14:05] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:14:05] Toliy: And then tell me why it's not plausible that this is all the things in your life are are this way. This 

[01:14:11] Eldar: way. Yeah. 

[01:14:12] Toliy: And if you, and if you get to that point where you, where you can't tell somebody why. Why? Why wouldn't that be correct?

[01:14:19] Well then I think that like you would just change. Change your life forever. 

[01:14:22] Eldar: Yeah. I agree. 

[01:14:23] Toliy: Like you can never look at things any kind of different way. Other than that. 

[01:14:27] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. And those are our final thoughts, guys. Thank you so much. As always. This was great. 

[01:14:32] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[01:14:33] Eldar: Thank you. Until next week.