204. Change

Why is personal growth so difficult, and why do we often feel like we're sabotaging our own self-improvement journey?

In this episode, Dennis, Toliy, Mike, and Katherine dive deep into the psychology of change and why our "conscious" plans often fail the moment they meet the reality of our subconscious habits. From the "Iceberg Effect" to Darwin’s theories on adaptability, we break down the invisible variables that keep us stuck in old patterns. 

Key Takeaways:

• The Proactivity Principle: Why being "beaten" by change causes suffering, while owning your evolution creates choice. 
• The Iceberg Effect: How the things you don't think about are actually driving your daily decisions. 
• Skillful Desires: Distinguishing between attachments that stunt you and the growth mindset that leads to enlightenment. 
• The Truth of Adaptability: Why even "good" habits might need to change when your environment evolves. 

Most Insightful Moment:

"You want to put yourselves in a position where you're in charge of your change and not that that change is in charge of you." — Toliy 

But what happens when your values are tested by the "three huge variables" of pressure, tiredness, and stress? Stay tuned to hear why even a "non-liar" might find themselves breaking their own rules when the stakes are high... 

Subscribe & Review! If you're ready to stop stunting your growth,  hit that subscribe button and join the conversation.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Dennis: On this week's episode, 

[00:00:01] Toliy: any conversation you have with anybody, any TV show you watch, like just any, anything that you do all day, 

[00:00:06] Mike: engage in. Yeah. 

[00:00:07] Toliy: Yeah. Mm-hmm. It actually has a large impact, but you don't even realize it. 

[00:00:13] Mike: If you don't change ahead of time, you'll just gonna be forced. Yeah. You do something you don't want to do versus if you change and you own the accord, yeah.

[00:00:21] You have more choice in the matter. And I think like that's huge. Speaking in, in that finality of, oh, this is so hard. It's almost like you 

[00:00:30] Eldar: stunt set your, 

[00:00:30] Mike: it's a setup 

[00:00:31] Eldar: to stunt your own growth. 

[00:00:32] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:00:33] Eldar: And your own ability to change.

[00:00:44] All right guys, tonight's topic is change. And I'm gonna start this one. Uh, not the same way we usually start this off, but I'll do it anyway. Uh, start with a quote. It is not the strongest of species that survives nor the most intelligent. But the ones most responsive to change. Who said that? 

[00:01:04] Katherine: Joe submitted it last week.

[00:01:06] Eldar: But, 

[00:01:06] Katherine: but who 

[00:01:06] Eldar: said it? Joe submitted a quote, but who said this is a famous person who said this quote? 

[00:01:09] Katherine: Oh, I don't remember. Mm-hmm. Do you guys know 

[00:01:11] Toliy: Gandhi? 

[00:01:13] Eldar: No. Somebody who was big on 

[00:01:16] Katherine: Socrates 

[00:01:17] Eldar: evolution. Oh, 

[00:01:18] Katherine: Darwin. 

[00:01:19] Eldar: Darwin. Darwin. Darwin. 

[00:01:19] Katherine: No, Charles 

[00:01:20] Eldar: Darwin. Okay. So again, it is not the strongest of the species that survives nor the most intelligent, not, but the ones most responsive to change.

[00:01:27] Toliy: Yeah. But that, that, that's like a, uh, like that makes no sense. That statement 

[00:01:32] Katherine: that kind of goes against the, you know, the survival, survival of the fittest. Who, who, who's, well, 

[00:01:36] Toliy: well, no. Like that, that, to me, that statement makes that would be strongest sense because people who like to, to like, how can you be not intelligent and not the strongest?

[00:01:46] But then also like, not be responsive to change. Like, like if you were intelligent and you were strong and you were old, you probably would be 

[00:01:52] Eldar: more responsive 

[00:01:52] Toliy: to change. Of 

[00:01:53] Eldar: course. Uh, so I guess we'll get into that for sure. Okay. 

[00:01:55] Toliy: Yeah, 

[00:01:55] Eldar: that's a good way to see it. That's interesting. So, and, and Jo writes, change your body.

[00:01:59] It changes your mind. Change your mind and it changes your ways. Change your ways and that'll change your, change your life. So she said, you know, he recommended this topic about change. Obviously there's a lot to it, you know, um, but the questions around it obviously is, uh, why is change so hard for, for us, right?

[00:02:19] What's, what's holding us back? 

[00:02:20] Toliy: Ooh. 

[00:02:20] Eldar: Why is it holding us back and what can we do in order to maybe expedite some of this change or, 

[00:02:25] Toliy: yeah, that's a good question. 

[00:02:26] Eldar: Uh, get into it so we can be adaptive or responsive and not perish. Because Darwin says if we're not, then we'll perish. 

[00:02:34] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:02:35] Eldar: Hmm. So it's open to the floor.

[00:02:37] What do you guys think? 

[00:02:39] Toliy: Well, I feel like, um. One, one of the big reasons that change, I think is very, um, difficult for everybody in general, just, just the whole process of it is because, um, I, well, well, I think factually for the most part, if people are like, thinking about something, they're thinking about it, um, only in their like, I guess, um, conscious thoughts, right?

[00:03:09] Like, they're not like thinking about their subconscious thoughts or their unconscious thoughts or unconscious ways of doing things. So oftentimes they will kind of fall into the same traps because there's pro there, there's a automated processes that they have that they're not thinking about it or considering in any of the equations they are trying to figure out.

[00:03:31] Right. 

[00:03:31] Eldar: Okay. 

[00:03:32] Toliy: Trying to 

[00:03:32] Eldar: follow, huh? I'm trying to follow, 

[00:03:34] Toliy: yeah. Yeah. So like for example, like if you're trying to change something about yourself, right? Yeah. You're thinking about it. Okay. You're consciously thinking about it. 

[00:03:41] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:03:42] Toliy: But you don't realize that you're not thinking about the things that you don't think about.

[00:03:47] That makes sense. 

[00:03:47] Eldar: Oh, that does make sense. 

[00:03:48] Toliy: You know? 

[00:03:49] Eldar: Correct. 

[00:03:49] Toliy: You're not saying that like, hey, like, um, like it's like saying, Hey, I'm okay. Like, um, if I'm hungry, I'm just not gonna eat. Or, or, or No, no, no. If, if, if you say, for example, like, um, I'm, I'm just gonna, going forward, I'm just gonna make good, healthy decisions, I'm gonna eat really healthy.

[00:04:05] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:04:06] Toliy: Okay. So like, you could say that consciously and in that moment it could sound like, hey, like this is pretty doable, or a pretty good idea. 

[00:04:13] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:04:13] Toliy: But you're not factoring in like stress, you're not fact factoring in. For, for example, time crunches 

[00:04:19] Eldar: not following you. You might, you might be a sleepwalker where in the middle of the night you walk to the fridge and eat and you don't even know that you eat in the middle of 

[00:04:25] Toliy: the night.

[00:04:25] Well, no, not, not a pap. But 

[00:04:26] Eldar: that's a good example. No, 

[00:04:28] Toliy: it could be, but that, that's not what I'm talking about. 

[00:04:30] Eldar: Okay, fine. 

[00:04:30] Toliy: Yeah. I'm talking about that. Like you're not factoring in who you actually are. Like for example, like 

[00:04:35] Eldar: yeah. 

[00:04:36] Toliy: If I'm not like a pre-plan planner and I'm saying I'm gonna eat healthy 

[00:04:39] Eldar: Yeah.

[00:04:39] Toliy: Every time. Yeah. But I also come home exhausted. 

[00:04:42] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:04:42] Toliy: Am I gonna do something that's gonna be quick and fast or am I gonna like start to bake vegetables and grill chicken when I'm already like stressed and tired, I'm do shit? 

[00:04:51] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:04:52] Toliy: Okay. Yeah. But the person who's planning to do that is not thinking about those 

[00:04:57] Eldar: things're, not so that to change.

[00:04:58] So then you're saying that this is very hard to do because of the fact that there's so many variables at play every single day about who we are. 

[00:05:05] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:05:06] Eldar: That we're constantly actually are changing, but not necessarily in a good way that we want us to be. 

[00:05:10] Toliy: Well, well, no, we're, we're just not. Um. We're, we're, um, we're consciously thinking that we're actually thinking about it scenario.

[00:05:20] Mm. But the reality is that we're not thinking about the things that we don't think about in those moments. So because of that, we're planning for so for like some something, but then, um, we're 

[00:05:32] Eldar: just bad planners at that 

[00:05:33] Toliy: point. We're we're, yeah. We're poor planners and we're, we're just poured on understanding how things actually work for ourselves mm-hmm.

[00:05:40] And how we actually operate. So because of that, you constantly have your, your ideas for change and your mm-hmm. Like, desires for, for change. Every time you, you try them, you get them wrong. 

[00:05:52] Eldar: I think that's a 

[00:05:52] Mike: very good point. 

[00:05:53] Toliy: But you get them wrong because you mm-hmm. You're just not aware of, I guess, of what is happening.

[00:05:57] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:05:58] Toliy: Um, and like, you're not able to, um, plan for those things and like address them properly. 

[00:06:04] Mike: Mm-hmm. You don't consciously know yourself. Oh, yes. That's what the problem is. 

[00:06:08] Toliy: Yeah. Where you're describing it's like, like, it, it, it's, it's like, for example, like. If you're gonna go climbing and it's going, going to be a very long session because, I don't know.

[00:06:17] 'cause you guys are going to Williamsburg and trying out like a new gym. 

[00:06:19] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:06:20] Toliy: But then you also, uh, make plans with somebody else, 

[00:06:22] Eldar: which we actually did and we killed it. 

[00:06:24] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:06:24] Eldar: Okay. 

[00:06:25] Toliy: And, but then if you told me that like, hey, um, I'm totally, I'm actually also gonna play basketball at 9:00 AM next day. 

[00:06:31] Eldar: Yeah.

[00:06:33] Toliy: If that's what you actually committed to doing. 

[00:06:35] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:06:35] Toliy: Right. You'd probably be stupid. 

[00:06:37] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:06:37] Toliy: Right. And you would probably like hurt 

[00:06:39] Eldar: yourself. 

[00:06:39] Toliy: Yeah. You, you, but, but you're not planning for like the soreness that you're going that like mm-hmm. You can anticipate is going to happen. 

[00:06:47] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:06:47] Toliy: And you're committing yourself to something that's going to cause you pain, for example.

[00:06:50] Correct. 

[00:06:51] Eldar: I 

[00:06:51] Toliy: agree. So like, not, not that like you were trying to change something there, but that's usually like, the process of change is hard because you just don't know who you are and how you operate and how things work for you, 

[00:07:02] Eldar: babe. 

[00:07:03] Mike: It's the, 

[00:07:03] Eldar: sorry. 

[00:07:04] Mike: I was gonna say it's the iceberg effect. 

[00:07:07] Eldar: Yes. That's a good point.

[00:07:08] Yeah. Yeah, babe, it's totally spot on with this assessment, 

[00:07:10] Katherine: spot on, 

[00:07:11] Eldar: spot on with this. 

[00:07:12] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[00:07:13] Eldar: And do you agree that this is actually why it's so hard to change? 

[00:07:17] Katherine: Yeah, 

[00:07:18] Eldar: because morning Catherine is not night, Catherine. 

[00:07:21] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:07:22] Eldar: Hmm. 

[00:07:23] Katherine: Yeah. Okay. 100%. 

[00:07:27] Eldar: Well, okay, that's a, that's one of the variables. 

[00:07:29] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:07:30] Eldar: What are the variables?

[00:07:31] I was thinking about being close-minded. 

[00:07:35] Katherine: Well, 

[00:07:35] Eldar: right when you Yeah, that too. Arrogance. Ignorance. 

[00:07:38] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:07:38] Eldar: Altogether, maybe ego, right? Mm-hmm. Um. Change becomes like a, you know, a uphill boulder that you gotta 

[00:07:46] Katherine: carry. Think about it. Change is a hassle if you think about it. You know? 

[00:07:49] Eldar: Well, that's the thing. 

[00:07:50] Katherine: It's like, it can be a hassle because now you're like, you have to be on your Ps and Qs.

[00:07:54] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:07:54] Katherine: About, you know, something that you might have been doing or, you know, I don't know, uh, let's say, uh, bad eating habits or whatever. You, you've been eating like this for your entire life and now you wanna switch it up. It, it, it's, it's, it's work, you know? 

[00:08:08] Mike: But a question I just had when you said that, is that because of our belief system that we created around change based on previous experience?

[00:08:17] Katherine: Could be, 

[00:08:18] Mike: but is that experience subjective and like, in a way inaccurate 

[00:08:23] Toliy: because, no, but it, but it's an un un unconscious, like a belief s system. Like, it's just something that like, yeah. Is ingrained in you, it's 

[00:08:31] Mike: identity 

[00:08:31] Toliy: and you give, like, you're not even able to give any conscious thoughts like, like to it.

[00:08:35] Mike: No, but I'm saying did that develop because of, a lot of times, a lot of times people, let's just say my theory is, oh, I'm thinking what I way I just thought about it is like people are against change because the times they did try to make change, they never succeeded. And they never succeeded because they never planned properly.

[00:08:52] So now they just have the bad connotation about change because mm-hmm. They already have this like preconceived thing. 

[00:08:58] Toliy: They totally, 

[00:08:59] Mike: they kind of least the people that went about it this way. 

[00:09:01] Toliy: Yeah, I think they could, but I also think that like, um, people in Jack Neural underestimate. How much, like every single interaction that they have with everything in the world, with whoever, how much it actually impacts them.

[00:09:13] Eldar: Yes. 

[00:09:15] Toliy: Mm-hmm. Can you say that again 

[00:09:15] Katherine: to us? 

[00:09:15] Eldar: It's 

[00:09:16] Toliy: a very good point. Like every single, like any conversation you have with anybody, any TV show you watch, like just any, anything that you do all day. 

[00:09:22] Eldar: Engage. Yeah. 

[00:09:23] Toliy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It actually has a large impact, but you don't even realize it. 

[00:09:27] Eldar: This just goes to what you're saying.

[00:09:29] It was said to me ear, uh, a week ago, Mike. Yeah. You said, Hey, like in the morning I wake up and like I can, I can mess up my whole day just by not paying attention to the small engagements that toy's talking about that are having an impact that I'm not even conscious of. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So you can throw your whole day off because you've violated yourself on step one.

[00:09:48] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:09:50] Eldar: You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. Because you're not conscious Absolutely. About what he's talking about. 

[00:09:54] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:54] Eldar: Um, that each small moment in time, any interaction, any engagement is actually carrying a serious impact on Yeah. On how things play out, on who you actually are. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:10:04] Toliy: Like the, the human mind is like, so strong.

[00:10:07] Katherine: It's crazy. 

[00:10:08] Toliy: Yeah. And so, like, powerful that I think that, like, we are, we're not able to like grasp how actually 

[00:10:14] Katherine: mm-hmm. 

[00:10:14] Toliy: Strong and like how much it learns and how, like it's just like a sponge. Yeah. You know? 

[00:10:18] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:10:18] Toliy: For everything. 

[00:10:19] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:10:19] Toliy: But you're, you're, um, like you're operating way more in like the subconscious or unconscious than you are in, in, in the conscious.

[00:10:30] Yeah. But you don't think about that when you make decisions again or when you 

[00:10:33] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:10:34] Toliy: Consider a change. 

[00:10:35] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. You 

[00:10:36] Toliy: know? Like what, what's the like, change? Change? Just what, like, it's the process of doing something, I guess. Like, like different, right? 

[00:10:44] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:10:45] Toliy: So if you're doing something, like if you're in the process of doing something different, then like there is so much paying attention that needs to happen.

[00:10:54] Mike: Yes. 

[00:10:54] Katherine: You really needs to 

[00:10:55] Toliy: be for it. Super mindful for any kind of successful. 

[00:10:57] Mike: Successful, yeah. Is, uh, it is changed like a, I don't know if the right word of it, but it's changed like a rule of life. Darwin thinks so. Yeah. Like what actually doesn't change the, it seems like everything, even nature. Right.

[00:11:11] Constantly think so too. Yeah. Like, uh, we as humans, we're always constantly changing. Yeah. Maybe we don't recognize it, but yeah. Mm-hmm. I, I asked that question also because in the peaceful Warrior mm-hmm. There was this moment that like, they were walking up the hill 

[00:11:24] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[00:11:26] Mike: And they're having this conversa, like the, the, the hill.

[00:11:30] They're walking up the mountain, they're trying to look for this. He's like, I wanna show you something, right? 

[00:11:34] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:11:35] Mike: And on that way, they're having this conversation and he'd given three important things. He said three most, like, I don't remember what he, how he said it, but three things about life.

[00:11:42] Paradox, change and humor. 

[00:11:44] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:11:44] Mike: I dunno if you remember that. 

[00:11:45] Eldar: I do remember 

[00:11:46] Mike: that in the context. I don't, I can't give the context, but he said like, these are the three rules of life or something like that. Mm-hmm. There's always change that life is a paradox and you always have to have a humor by yourself or something like that.

[00:11:57] Yeah. So that's, that's what I just connected. I wonder if like 

[00:12:02] Eldar: Yeah. Buddhist thing, this is big non permanence and change 

[00:12:04] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:12:05] Eldar: Is like a thing. Of course. 

[00:12:06] Toliy: The thing is that I think change is inevitable. Like you have no, no, like you have no choice in it, but like your self-imposed pain and suffering happens when, when 

[00:12:19] Eldar: resisted.

[00:12:19] Toliy: You don't be, no, when, when you don't beat, beat, like change to, to it. Like you have to be the one driving change for yourself. Not the world or others driving change for you? 

[00:12:30] Eldar: Correct. '

[00:12:30] Toliy: cause when there are others, 

[00:12:32] Eldar: yes. 

[00:12:32] Toliy: If you're forced into change, 

[00:12:33] Eldar: yeah. 

[00:12:34] Toliy: There's always gonna be like a crazy friction and pain and suffering and like 

[00:12:37] Eldar: Yeah.

[00:12:38] Toliy: Resistance. 

[00:12:38] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:12:39] Toliy: But if you can beat change to it, which is like you being ahead of things, right? Yeah. Yeah. And that's in general, I think how just like life works, like Yeah. If you let things build up, right? Like your test is due on the fifth and you have a month to do it and you wait until the fourth.

[00:12:56] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:12:56] Toliy: Like you're gonna be forced into a hole, right? Yeah. And like the whole process is gonna be painful for you and you have to finish this whole test and in like one day when you had a month to do it. So if you don't wanna be proactive about it and do like a little bit each day, for example. 

[00:13:11] Eldar: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:12] Toliy: And study it properly and do it properly, then you're gonna be forced to like do it that way, you know? 

[00:13:18] Eldar: Okay. So, but it sounds at least like that change in general has a difficult connotation to it. 

[00:13:25] Mike: Well, I think. Why I think, um, to tie what they totally saying is, if you don't change ahead of time, you are just gonna be forced Yes.

[00:13:36] To do something you don't wanna do, versus if you change on you own accord 

[00:13:39] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:13:39] Mike: You have more choice in the matter. And I think, like, that's huge. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:13:44] Toliy: Like, 

[00:13:44] Mike: so then how do you become proactive? 

[00:13:46] Toliy: Well, 

[00:13:47] Mike: without 

[00:13:48] Toliy: saying the word 

[00:13:48] Mike: philosophy, 

[00:13:49] Toliy: you, you have, you have to not be like arrogant. Oh. You go and be open-minded.

[00:13:52] Yeah. Like you're saying, like for example, AI is obviously a big thing right now. 

[00:13:56] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:13:57] Toliy: Right. 

[00:13:57] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:13:58] Toliy: The, the evolution of a, a AI will happen regardless of what you feel or think about it. Correct. Once implemented or don't want implement it. 

[00:14:06] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:14:07] Toliy: Right. 

[00:14:07] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:14:07] Toliy: Now, um, if your job is to, like, do research for example, and look up, like contact info of people, for example, if, if that's what you do, but then there's a way to have AI just do it like X 

[00:14:19] Eldar: with that, 

[00:14:20] Toliy: this by 10 

[00:14:20] Eldar: x, 

[00:14:21] Toliy: x by, by not, not even by like a thousand x.

[00:14:23] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:14:24] Toliy: Well then like. You're gonna eventually be probably like, out of a job mm-hmm. And be like, forced a change a position where you're forcefully having to like change. 

[00:14:31] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:14:32] Toliy: So you could be proactive and you could understand how it works. But some people probably have the attitude of like, like this is like, you know, snake oil or like, it's bad, or like mm-hmm.

[00:14:41] This or that, and they're like arrogant about it, or like, yeah, it's not gonna like, replace that or like, do that or like that. Mm-hmm. You know? Um, 

[00:14:49] Eldar: but how, how do you, how do you stay proactive though? Like, like the world's gonna continue to change and stuff. Like, do you constantly have to be going with the flow of the world?

[00:14:57] Mm-hmm. I think, I think, uh, ultimately what if you don't wanna, like, you know what, I do wanna manually look up these addresses myself. What the fuck's the problem? 

[00:15:06] Toliy: Well, well, yeah. But if you're like, then you have to put yourself in a position where you're not affected by like the movement or technology, like, of the world.

[00:15:15] Eldar: It's not tied to your 

[00:15:15] Toliy: job, for example, 

[00:15:16] Eldar: your 

[00:15:16] Toliy: responsibilities. Well, yeah. Like if you're, if you're like delivering thing, are you gonna deliver on like a horse or what if there's like a semi-truck that's gonna have 

[00:15:23] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[00:15:23] Toliy: You know. A hundred x more cargo on there. Yeah. And go like a hundred x faster than you would be on, on like a horse.

[00:15:30] Are you gonna keep doing it? 

[00:15:32] Eldar: I guess as long as you're not tied to, like I said, responsibility of a job. 

[00:15:35] Toliy: Well that's the thing, is that like you wanna put yourselves in position where you're in charge of your change and not that that change is in charge of you. 

[00:15:43] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:15:43] Toliy: That's why I think that there's, in general probably like those poor connotations.

[00:15:47] 'cause most people have been put in boxes where like they have to change or they have to do this or they have to do that mainly based on like the choices that they've made or the position that they've put themselves into. So that's why they also have a very hard time in general with change because they've had poor experiences 

[00:16:06] Eldar: Yeah.

[00:16:06] Toliy: With it. But they have not tied that back to like those poor experiences happen because of their poor actions to begin with. So change, they haven't made that full circle. Like, 

[00:16:14] Mike: uh, so change, it sounds like it's a skill, like a developed skill, right? 

[00:16:20] Eldar: Having the ability to change and adapt. Yeah. 

[00:16:22] Mike: Yeah.

[00:16:23] Eldar: Probably, maybe to some 

[00:16:24] Mike: degree, degree that has to be like probably learned. 

[00:16:26] Eldar: Mm-hmm. Joe brought up an example and said, look, you know, it was like certain stuff wasn't working for me in my relationship and I shared it with you guys, you know, and I get some advice and I'm now would like to change and implement different things.

[00:16:38] Mm-hmm. And he's doing that. 

[00:16:39] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:16:39] Eldar: You know what I mean? So, um, to a degree you have to probably experience some level of pain before you say something. Right. Uh, then be forced a little bit. Like, 'cause shit's not working. What's gonna happen here? Are you gonna just gonna divorce or are you gonna try to see if you can get a different advice and be open-minded and see how you can maneuver this whole situation, you know?

[00:17:01] Mm-hmm. Get some somebody else's input and then weigh it out to see if he can try this thing out, you know, see if it serves him or not, you know? So to some, some degree you need to be open-minded to those things. 

[00:17:11] Toliy: Yeah. I think. You, you, you probably have to have a combination of like, wanting, like in, in general have like a, uh, desire for improvement in general.

[00:17:21] Like a, like you have to have a desire for like, some kind of like progressive life where things are like better, I guess, right? And then you have to have that with the combination of like, also being open to be challenged on top of it. That, that way you're not like, set in your ways and you're not arrogant about how you go about things.

[00:17:40] Eldar: Well, what's wrong with being set in your ways? If your ways are good, for example? 

[00:17:44] Toliy: Well, 

[00:17:44] Eldar: as long as wait. Well, 

[00:17:45] Toliy: isn't 

[00:17:45] Katherine: that a little arrogant? Isn't that like, 

[00:17:47] Eldar: oh, no. In Joe's case, I'm gonna say that it's, it's good that he's looking for change. He's looking to evolve. 

[00:17:52] Katherine: He's, he's, 

[00:17:52] Eldar: but certain things that are, he's a positive thing.

[00:17:54] Maybe you've been doing for a while and you, they're serving you and it's, you're really not bothering anyone. You're not affected by the world and it's not affecting you. What's, what's wrong with just keeping to your, to your guns? 

[00:18:05] Toliy: But I feel like it's like a dangerous, um, slope. Um. 

[00:18:09] Mike: Maybe 

[00:18:10] Toliy: in 

[00:18:10] Eldar: like a, in a broad angle, if you looked at 

[00:18:12] Mike: it from like a wide lens, maybe it is, but also we're like, we have a million different files on, on ourselves, a million different things.

[00:18:22] So, um, like I guess you don't need to change once you reach enlightenment, right? Probably. Does that make sense? 

[00:18:30] Toliy: No, 

[00:18:30] Mike: but no, but you reach a level of, um, I'm not gonna call enlightenment, like in, as, as a whole, but a certain level of living in accordance to the truth, right. Which I would assume is connection to enlightenment in a certain area of your life.

[00:18:44] Then why would you need to change? 

[00:18:46] Toliy: Well, 

[00:18:46] Mike: would you need to change? 

[00:18:47] Toliy: No, but I, I, I, I don't think like there's a, uh, time where you're gonna reach some level of like, enlightenment. I think that like, um, your enlightenment probably has to be like, um, maintained. 

[00:19:00] Eldar: Yeah. But I like the way Mike broke it down where it's like in pieces of enlightenment, you know what I mean?

[00:19:04] Like, you know how you tie your shoes. 

[00:19:06] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:19:07] Eldar: Do you know that there's different ways to tie your shoes. 

[00:19:09] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:19:09] Eldar: But you tie your shoes, the way you tie your shoes. 

[00:19:11] Toliy: Sure. 

[00:19:11] Eldar: Maybe you reach the level of enlightenment where it doesn't bother you. 

[00:19:15] Toliy: No. Yeah. But you also may not be aware of pains and sufferings that are happening.

[00:19:18] And you also, like, something could work for you now, but it may not work the same way for you in the future, which is why you have to be open. 

[00:19:26] Mike: But the truth is not susceptible to change. Right. 

[00:19:29] Toliy: Yeah. But then what 

[00:19:29] Mike: if you live in accordance with the truth on that one specific area? Yeah. And we have millions of areas that we as humans have.

[00:19:37] Toliy: Yeah. But we don't have like, areas that are not like, um, like, um, well, 1, 1, 1 thing I think that if you're saying that it's just, it, it's like it's the truth. And I think that there's obviously not much to like challenge there or cha mm-hmm. Change to begin with. 

[00:19:53] Mike: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[00:19:53] Toliy: But I think it's, you have to be very careful as to what you would label as like, this is for sure like the truth and there's no mm-hmm.

[00:20:00] Way behind it. Because, um, for example, doing something could work for you at some point, but now you. Throwing a different desire in the mix or something else about 

[00:20:09] you. 

[00:20:09] Mike: Yeah. But then that's changed the thing. It's like, oh, if you know how to be the best single guy and now you get into relationship, now everything has changed.

[00:20:16] So you obviously don't have the enlightened more as a single guy, 'cause you're no longer a single guy. 

[00:20:20] Toliy: Yeah. But then what, what are you talking about as far as like, like, like an enlightenment state that like, 

[00:20:24] Mike: um, or something that you, like 

[00:20:26] Toliy: what's an example? 

[00:20:26] Mike: I, I don't know. I have to think about it. I didn't like, uh, I don't have a concrete example, but something that you already have, like, that you're like, set the way that you're set in your way, but the way is in accordance with the truth.

[00:20:38] Like, 

[00:20:38] Toliy: yeah, but what, what would, what an example that be. 

[00:20:39] Mike: Okay. Um, if you're a good listener, if you, if you're, if you're not a liar and you get into a relationship, are you gonna have to relearn how to become a, not a liar? 

[00:20:49] Toliy: Uh, potentially, yeah. Well now you brought in a new element. Yeah. In, into the mix. 

[00:20:55] Eldar: Yeah.

[00:20:55] But that doesn't mean like your value or your belief system changes just because you brought in a new thing. Yeah. 

[00:21:00] Toliy: Well, well, like if you set on, well, it could, if you have different, if you bring in more attachments now you don't know how you're going to, um 

[00:21:07] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[00:21:08] Toliy: Respond. Well, 

[00:21:09] Eldar: it, I guess it all, it all depends on how much value you put on honesty.

[00:21:14] Toliy: Well, yeah. Like, if you're saying that, like, if, if you're doing things and you're saying that, hey, like not being a liar is, is at like the forefront of like, what's extremely important. But there's also like so many different intricate parts of like human psychology that like mm-hmm. Outside of just being a liar.

[00:21:30] Right. That are also going to play a, a portion of this. Yeah. Okay. Like, you're not a liar. But then again, how do you define, like, what do you define like lies? Is it like no lies at all. Like, is it like 

[00:21:41] Eldar: white 

[00:21:41] Toliy: lives allowed only on Sunday? Yeah. Like is it on specific things? And then now how about you bring in like pressure, tiredness, stress.

[00:21:49] Yeah. For example, three huge variables that, um, like that can give you an opportunity to, to be broken onto your values. Yeah. Right now you have different attachments and different parts of like, like different things to consider here now. 

[00:22:03] Eldar: Yeah, that's true. 

[00:22:04] Toliy: So to to, to, to me that part 

[00:22:06] Eldar: doesn't mean that you'll waver, 

[00:22:07] Toliy: it doesn't mean so, but you definitely have, but 

[00:22:09] Eldar: there's much more pressure potentially.

[00:22:11] There's 

[00:22:11] Toliy: Yes. It, and it's a matter of like, again, like you have to, um, you, you, you have to be open to change and you have to be, you not open to change. You have to be open to be challenged. Like if you're open to being challenged, then you either, when you're challenged, two things happen. Right. You either walk away with saying, Hey, like, yeah, my method's great.

[00:22:33] Like it works well for me. Like, hey, I just confirmed that again for the thousandth time. 

[00:22:37] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:22:37] Toliy: Right. 

[00:22:37] Eldar: You sharpen the sword. 

[00:22:38] Toliy: Yes. Or. Or you just found something that could, could be like, um, a hole that like you didn't see before or may, or maybe like a better way of doing things, so 

[00:22:49] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[00:22:50] Toliy: If you have that kind of attitude, you walk away from every scenario as like, you always win, you either learn something that's actually way better 

[00:22:57] Eldar: Yeah.

[00:22:57] Toliy: And you were doing something wrong, or maybe just like not as good. 

[00:23:00] Eldar: Okay. So I see how he's putting it. Okay. I understand. Yeah. Yeah. So that then it's almost like, uh, yeah, change is almost, is enlightenment to, to a degree. If you have the ability to actually keep an open mind and constantly go with the, with the flow and change for the better, it's like, it's almost like unlimited amount of growth forever and ever for eternal.

[00:23:20] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:23:21] Eldar: Which is pretty cool. 

[00:23:22] Toliy: Well, yeah. Yeah. And like ev like all of us are particular people, but, but if we're, if we sign up for things and we don't realize like what's going on, there can all be an immense amount of like, pressure, stress, tiredness, all that, that could like. Crumble like what we've built.

[00:23:38] But the, the, the reason that it works well is because whoever has that is constantly working on maintaining it and supporting it. Right? 

[00:23:45] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:23:46] Toliy: And it's not something that you could just like. Say like, Hey, I'm just gonna stop thinking about all, all, all of these things. 

[00:23:51] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:23:51] Toliy: But then yeah, like, you're aging, you're living, you're doing like 

[00:23:54] Eldar: things.

[00:23:54] Yeah. You really don't know, because the thing is, there's so many variables at play. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That you really don't know how you're gonna react. 

[00:23:59] Toliy: Yes. 

[00:24:00] Eldar: You know what I mean? To all those variables. 

[00:24:01] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:24:02] Eldar: And we already see how, like, how, like, you know, sure. We might all in this room agree that honesty is the best policy, but then like, we're buzzing or we're tired, or whatever it is.

[00:24:12] Yeah. We might slip a little white eye here and there. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? You could have an 

[00:24:15] Toliy: attachment to 

[00:24:16] Eldar: something because we haven't sharpened our sword, you know, the times when we're sleep deprived or whatever. 

[00:24:20] Toliy: Yeah. Or, or if like someone asks you about something, for example. Yeah. And like, you don't want to be a liar, but you're embarrassed about the, the, uh, scenario.

[00:24:28] Yeah. You could lie to not feel embarrassment, for example. 

[00:24:30] Eldar: Correct. No, I get it. No, I get it. 

[00:24:32] Toliy: You know? 

[00:24:32] Eldar: I get it. Yeah. 

[00:24:32] Toliy: So like you lied to save yourself from another 

[00:24:35] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[00:24:35] Toliy: Yeah. Feeling that you felt was worse at that time. 

[00:24:37] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:24:38] Toliy: But you may have not wanted to lie, but I guess like Yeah. You felt like you had to or something.

[00:24:42] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:24:43] Toliy: You know? 

[00:24:43] Eldar: Yeah. No, I agree. Okay. 

[00:24:47] Mike: You a deeper thought. 

[00:24:49] Katherine: Mm-hmm. I'm listening. I'm here. 

[00:24:52] Mike: Okay, Mike? No, I think, uh, I think it makes sense what you're saying. Yeah. It's probably, it's probably, yeah, because we have the human element and we're susceptible to other things. 

[00:25:07] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:25:07] Mike: Yeah. We can't reach, let's just say enlightenment in those certain areas.

[00:25:11] Eldar: No, but I think that like the enlightenment is what I think, I mean, I don't know if I understood it. No, I, I understand. I might have understood it in differently, but I think that the enlightenment is, is the ability to be able to be constantly be thrown new variables into the mix and be able to then practice your virtues within that environment.

[00:25:28] Toliy: Yes. 

[00:25:29] Eldar: To to, to excel to the degree of crazy potential 

[00:25:32] Toliy: to meditate in Times Square. 

[00:25:34] Eldar: Yes. Phenomenon. 

[00:25:34] Toliy: It's 

[00:25:35] Eldar: that it's that it's a continuous thing where you Yeah. Yeah. Like, 

[00:25:38] Mike: yeah, I get it. You, you constantly just constantly like, I don't know, fucking like, expanding. 

[00:25:43] Toliy: Yeah. Like you could be, you, you 

[00:25:45] Mike: be good, you be having a good life.

[00:25:46] Uh, what you're saying is the thing of like that, um, I, I mean I, I, I thought about it like this way, it's like, yeah. It's, it's that destination. It's not the destination thing. It's not mm-hmm. Your purpose is not like someplace that you reach. Yeah. Your purpose is, is the way you live your life every day.

[00:26:04] Eldar: The journey every single 

[00:26:05] Mike: day. The journey every single day. Yeah. Correct. Yeah. And that's the same thing. Yeah. Is, is here like the same reference I'm understanding. 

[00:26:11] Eldar: Yeah. Because the truth of the matter is like, who in their, in one, even in one lifetime seen it all of done it all. 

[00:26:18] Mike: No. 

[00:26:18] Eldar: Like, you know what I'm saying?

[00:26:20] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:26:21] Eldar: It's like impossible to say that, you know? Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:24] Toliy: It's arrogant. 

[00:26:24] Eldar: It, 

[00:26:25] it 

[00:26:25] Eldar: would be arrogant to say that 

[00:26:26] Toliy: like, I'm gonna Yeah. That's why you would have a hard time again, like in life, if you have that kind of like stance where like, hey, there's nothing left to learn on this. Like, I already got all this, you know?

[00:26:35] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:26:36] Toliy: But, 

[00:26:36] Mike: correct. Yeah, 

[00:26:37] Toliy: sure. But like, you could have like the greatest life, but then for example, like, let's just say you have to do things with someone that has a terrible attitude. 

[00:26:44] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:45] Toliy: Right? 

[00:26:45] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:26:46] Toliy: I mean that changes like a lot. 

[00:26:48] Eldar: It 

[00:26:48] Toliy: does potentially. Right? 

[00:26:49] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:26:49] Toliy: How are you gonna handle that now? You had a great morning.

[00:26:51] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:26:52] Toliy: And then someone's doing this. 

[00:26:53] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:26:54] Toliy: That was your morning gonna be now for, for example. 

[00:26:56] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. It's like, that's a good point. 

[00:26:58] Toliy: You know? 

[00:26:58] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:59] Toliy: So then you would constantly have to like evolve and put yourself in positions to like, you know 

[00:27:03] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[00:27:05] Toliy: Um, for your, yeah. For your whole day. Not to be thrown off from something in the morning or from like Yeah.

[00:27:09] You know, to constant have a focus and the ability to like pay attention to, um, to see what's going on. 

[00:27:17] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:27:18] Toliy: As best you can. 

[00:27:19] Eldar: Yeah. Okay. So anything else? I don't even know what the 

[00:27:24] Mike: question. 

[00:27:26] Eldar: I mean it Well, I mean, we started with change and how difficult it is. 

[00:27:29] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:27:29] Eldar: Right? Uh, but it sounds like it's super necessary to, to live a good life.

[00:27:33] You know? It's 

[00:27:35] Mike: a, 

[00:27:36] Eldar: and it's, it's almost like a, like totally said. I think it's a more, more of like a challenge almost. Uh, yeah. 

[00:27:40] Toliy: No, but it's also that like, I don't know if change, like, 'cause like the way that we're saying it is that like, change is inherently difficult. I think we've made it difficult. Yeah. I don't know if change was like born difficult, you know?

[00:27:52] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:27:52] Toliy: But the way that we are, it's difficult. 

[00:27:54] Mike: Yeah. That's what I was saying earlier, you know, this change rule of life and that we develop this bad attitude about change because we haven't had success in it. And now we have this, which brings me back to what you said earlier. Mm-hmm. Now 

[00:28:05] Eldar: you said before like, hey, like nothing's hard.

[00:28:08] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:28:08] Eldar: Remember that you had this whole like philosophy where like, hey, like nothing's actually hard. Or did you say that? 

[00:28:14] Toliy: I said that? 

[00:28:14] Yeah. 

[00:28:14] Eldar: Oh, you said that. So, yeah. Um, where like. It's hard for the moment because you don't know it and don't know it yet. 

[00:28:20] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:28:21] Eldar: But as soon as you start going into the details, you start learning about it, you start growing or seeing yourself within that, that change mm-hmm.

[00:28:28] Is no longer as hard anymore. Right. 

[00:28:30] Toliy: A hundred percent. It, it's your, it, it's like the way that you're speaking and the way you're thinking about things is wrong because like 

[00:28:37] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:28:37] Toliy: Yeah. Like, it's an impossible statement to, to say that, that like, something is really hard. It's only really hard for now. 

[00:28:44] Eldar: For now.

[00:28:44] Toliy: Yeah. Is is what you mean. Yeah. Until you get better at it. 

[00:28:47] Eldar: Correct. 

[00:28:47] Toliy: Then like, how many things can everyone do that others would view as hard, 

[00:28:51] Eldar: but speaking in, in that finality of, uh, this is so hard. It's almost like you stunt, it's a, it's a setup to stunt your own growth and your own ability to change.

[00:29:00] Mike: Well, yeah. It's an 

[00:29:01] Eldar: arrogance. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:29:02] Mike: But that, that's, that's where, that's what the, that's the thing is like. Piggyback. Did we, did we make this thing of, it's like, uh, did we make the change thing seem hard or is change hard? Well, I'm not sure if it's we, but maybe part of our ego did and our arrogance, which is tied.

[00:29:19] Yeah. Did we develop this attitude towards it? Yeah. 

[00:29:21] Toliy: Yeah. I think it's like the phenomenon of like, um, like we, we, we, we used to talk about this before that like, there's like a phenomenon about like learning more information, right. And like, um, having more like understanding. 

[00:29:34] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:35] Toliy: And the phenomenon is that like, the more, you know, technically it builds, it, it naturally almost builds some level of arrogance because you physically know more.

[00:29:46] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:29:46] Toliy: Right. And if you don't maintain that attitude of like, of, of, of like what Socrates said, Don 

[00:29:52] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:29:53] Toliy: You know that he knows nothing. 

[00:29:54] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:29:55] Toliy: Right. It's really difficult to maintain that kind of attitude when you actually know shit or you feel like you know shit, for example. Because when you're worried, well, not 

[00:30:02] Eldar: really if you actually know some shit, that's the thing, 

[00:30:04] Toliy: but Well, that's, that, that's the paradox of it is that like, how do you learn new shit without also building up the ego, the arrogance behind knowing shit and then saying that you don't know shit.

[00:30:15] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:30:16] Toliy: You know? 

[00:30:16] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:30:16] Toliy: I don't think most people have those kinds of like, um, abilities to like, um, function 

[00:30:21] Eldar: ways. Well, I don't think a of people zoomed in on knowledge, truth, and life in such a way where they, they thought about it and these intricate details to know that these traps are there. 

[00:30:33] Toliy: That's what I'm saying.

[00:30:34] They, they, they only avoid up, but they don't go up and then come back down. 

[00:30:37] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:30:37] Toliy: To be like, okay, I got that. I'm gonna come back down. And that's more of like the being humble or ba or, or maybe having, well Stephen A. 

[00:30:43] Mike: Smith goes back to the hood every year, right? 

[00:30:46] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:30:47] Mike: But the design of everything, everything was disgusting, is so sick.

[00:30:50] Yeah. It's perfectly designed. 

[00:30:52] Eldar: Yeah. It is, it's just our job is to be able to interpret the shit in such a way where we can align as close as possible to it, so then we can be in the state of flow of the enjoyment of it. 

[00:31:04] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:04] Eldar: Where each moment that totally talked about in the beginning is entered and left with satisfaction.

[00:31:12] Toliy: Yeah. That, that to me, what, what, what you're talking about that to me is enlightenment. 

[00:31:16] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:31:18] Toliy: Like I already, like, I feel like, like we all have it, like we have enlightenment. 

[00:31:22] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:31:22] Toliy: Like if you, if you automatically have that a to that, that like, um, like that, that like that feeling that like something is possible, but you need to, and, and you know that like it's real.

[00:31:34] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:35] Toliy: But you need to like obviously improve and figure out and like learn and you're excited about that opportunity. 

[00:31:40] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:41] Toliy: Like what else would, like, what, what else do you want, you know? 

[00:31:43] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:45] Toliy: Um, like you, you have a felt opportunity. 

[00:31:48] Eldar: How about this next question that came to mind, babe? Is this a direct correlation or a direct antidote to A DHD?

[00:31:57] If so, how? 

[00:31:59] Katherine: Mm-hmm. Change. 

[00:32:01] Eldar: Yeah. Well change, DHD, this what we talked about change and what's necessary in order to really hone in on change and really to experience life in such a way where, like I said, it's, it's a pleasant experience versus not. And how does it combat a DHD specifically? 

[00:32:17] Katherine: Mm. The mindfulness that's required for it 

[00:32:22] Eldar: from moment to moment.

[00:32:23] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:32:23] Eldar: Each moment requires attention and focus. Mm-hmm. If you want to, because each moment, 

[00:32:28] Katherine: if you have it, if you can. 

[00:32:30] Eldar: Mm-hmm. Well see. I'm not sure. See, that's, that's the difference between like what you think and what I think about it. 

[00:32:35] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:36] Eldar: If you want to 

[00:32:37] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:32:37] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:38] Eldar: Is my, my thing, you know what I mean?

[00:32:43] The can part is the defeating part where it's like, oh, you know, I've tried everything, you know, 

[00:32:47] Toliy: works, works. The, the, the can part is the, um. Not being able to connect your subconscious actions to your, to your conscious actions. 

[00:32:53] Eldar: Correct. 

[00:32:54] Toliy: That, that yeah, that's what I was talking about in, in, in the beginning, is that like you're not, you're missing information 

[00:33:00] Eldar: Yeah.

[00:33:00] Toliy: When, like thinking or speaking about something, but, but that's there, you know, 

[00:33:04] Eldar: all of this is not still tied to value proposition. Yes. Yes. That at the end of the day that if Catherine decides to say, you know what? Oh yeah, it's too hard. Okay, go live your life with a DH adhd. But for Okay, she goes and does shit with a DH ADHD and guess what's gonna happen?

[00:33:22] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:33:23] Eldar: She's gonna hit a wall that hurts. The pain's gonna come in. Yeah. Of like, what happened? And I have to slow down now. I can't keep buzzing. I have to discuss the situation with my therapist, with elder, whoever, with you guys. And then I have to reassess. Right? And if you come to proper conclusions, you've come to realize what, like, oh, I shouldn't have done this.

[00:33:42] I shouldn't have done that. I should pay attention more, I should be more mindful next time I enter that situation, I'm gonna be focused. That's a value proposition because 

[00:33:51] Toliy: now Yeah, the value proposition is, yeah. That, that, that's big. Yeah. Like for example, like you don't 

[00:33:56] Eldar: want pain. 

[00:33:57] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:33:58] Mike: But you know what?

[00:33:59] You don't want 

[00:33:59] Eldar: pain. 

[00:33:59] Mike: The value proposition is very hard because if you don't choose one side, um, sorry. If you choose the other side mm-hmm. The other side provides pain relief 

[00:34:13] Eldar: No problem. 

[00:34:14] Mike: And but the 

[00:34:14] Eldar: only up to the point. 

[00:34:16] Mike: Yes, yes. 

[00:34:16] Eldar: It only provides relief up to a point. 

[00:34:19] Mike: Yes. 

[00:34:19] Eldar: But then you have to think, right?

[00:34:21] Yeah. Because she wanted to put that perfume as soon as possible into the thing because it's bugging her, right? 

[00:34:24] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:34:25] Eldar: Her A DHD is going wild. Yeah. Yeah. But then told, but then totally said, you know what? Oh, when you run into that wall where you have to tell your friends what you did, what are your question?

[00:34:33] What are your answers? 

[00:34:34] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:34:35] Eldar: It's pain. 

[00:34:36] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:34:36] Eldar: Oh, I didn't think that far. I'm trying to get rid of, to get rid of the buzz. Mm-hmm. Talking about, no, ill cross that bridge when you get there. The other 

[00:34:43] Mike: side, the thing is the other side, 

[00:34:44] Eldar: Uhhuh, 

[00:34:45] Mike: the buzzing is a pain reliever. 

[00:34:47] Eldar: I know. Yes, I know. The 

[00:34:48] Mike: non buzzing side, there is a pain facer.

[00:34:51] Eldar: Yes. But, but I'm saying that you, by buzzing, you expedite the hitting of the wall and creating pain. 

[00:34:57] Mike: Sure. 

[00:34:57] Eldar: It's gonna get there. Sure. Yeah. You just don't see it yet in the moment. Yeah, but life is long. 

[00:35:02] Toliy: Yeah. No, but, but that's what we're saying, being forced. So can, can I, do you wanna be forced with a change or do you wanna be proactive 

[00:35:08] Eldar: Correct 

[00:35:09] Katherine: to it?

[00:35:09] So can I get, so what would be the resolution in this like, scenario that you guys saw? So, um, the, the buzzing, the pain relief is like, uh, fine, fine, uh, find, find a, like solution a, a solution, right? Mm-hmm. Um, so what's the right thing to do? Like if that, if that was the wrong thing, if that's like the pain reliever, then, then what is, so what, what do you guys suggest?

[00:35:33] Like 

[00:35:34] Eldar: what would, I mean, you would have to track it back all the way back to, uh, developing attachment to it in the first place. That's where it all grew from. 

[00:35:40] Katherine: That's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

[00:35:42] Eldar: You know what I mean? 

[00:35:42] Toliy: Well, no, but in this scenario, 

[00:35:45] Katherine: so I should just what? Like give it away to someone else and that's it.

[00:35:47] Toliy: Well, no, I, I would, I, is that, is that what's right? Would, um, like I, I view it from like this lens. Tell tell them, tell 'em if you guys agree. Like, it sounded like Kat wanted something, right? 

[00:35:58] Eldar: Oh, 

[00:35:58] Toliy: while 

[00:35:59] Eldar: ago. 

[00:35:59] Toliy: Yeah. A while ago. Yes. That, that's original attachment. Yes. Yes. She vocalized 

[00:36:02] it. 

[00:36:02] Eldar: Yes. 

[00:36:03] Toliy: Right. 

[00:36:03] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:36:04] Toliy: Um, but like, she, like, she wanted something, but she was, um, I dunno if it was first that like, 

[00:36:13] Eldar: you know how much, as soon as you want something, you know how much power you give away?

[00:36:17] A 

[00:36:17] Toliy: hundred percent. A hundred 

[00:36:18] Eldar: percent. Okay. We know how much that costs. 

[00:36:19] Toliy: No, a hundred percent. But I'm saying discuss, discuss it too 

[00:36:21] Eldar: many 

[00:36:21] times 

[00:36:21] Toliy: she wanted something, she was vocal about it. 

[00:36:24] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:36:24] Toliy: Someone heard it. 

[00:36:25] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:36:26] Toliy: Right. And then wanted to do, I guess like what they viewed as a good gesture, right? 

[00:36:29] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:36:30] Toliy: To get it for, 

[00:36:30] Eldar: of course.

[00:36:31] Toliy: Right. So, but um, like they weren't aware, for example, and I don't think it was like their duty, like, I mean. I'm not sure if the burden was on them to know that, like there's three different kinds, for example. 

[00:36:44] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:36:44] Toliy: Of the item. 

[00:36:45] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:36:45] Toliy: Right. But I think it was more on the duty of the person that wanted it.

[00:36:48] Right. 

[00:36:49] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:36:49] Toliy: That like to be specific. Right. Or, or that, but then if they didn't know, 

[00:36:53] Eldar: they also didn't know maybe. Yeah. 

[00:36:54] Toliy: Yeah. Then, then, then they didn't know. Um, 

[00:36:57] Katherine: nobody knew. 

[00:36:58] Toliy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No one knew. So then like Yeah. To, yeah, to be, again, the, the, the right thing to do at this point, I think to me sounds like, um, yeah, probably to sell it and to get the new one.

[00:37:11] Eldar: Correct. The one you want. 

[00:37:12] Toliy: The one you want. And even if you have to take it on the chin. 

[00:37:15] Eldar: Take it on the 

[00:37:15] Toliy: chin. 

[00:37:16] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:37:16] Katherine: Okay. 

[00:37:17] Toliy: But, but that's, 

[00:37:17] Katherine: but that's what you guys are calling the route of like the pain relief for the A DHD, which that's what I'm doing. 

[00:37:23] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:37:24] Katherine: So then my question is, so like, if, if what's the right way to do it?

[00:37:29] Like how would, 'cause he just described what I'm doing right now. 

[00:37:33] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:37:34] Katherine: Which is selling it so I could get the right one. 

[00:37:36] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:37:36] Katherine: You know? 

[00:37:37] Eldar: Told 

[00:37:37] so 

[00:37:37] Katherine: told you. What's the other option? That's what I'm asking. Like what is the No selling 

[00:37:42] Toliy: pain relief to get the Yeah. Like you weren't 

[00:37:44] Katherine: originally planning. No, I think never said that.

[00:37:45] Like I never said, Hey, I just wanna pocket the money. That's, that's, that was never my intention. She didn't think it through and I never said that. I just, in the moment, like I, I'm not even thinking it through like my, my, I'm like fixated, you know? Mm-hmm. On, on, on just this right now, getting 

[00:37:59] Toliy: rid 

[00:37:59] Katherine: of it, but like, yeah, no, my intention, but why though is not to put the money in my pocket.

[00:38:03] Like obviously I, I'm attempting to exchange it for a reason because the, the right one was not purchased. Yeah. That's all that, that's all it was. 

[00:38:12] Toliy: Yeah. But, so, 

[00:38:13] Katherine: so I'm asking if this is the wrong thing? Mm-hmm. If I'm, if this is just buzzing me, my A DHD just buzzing to resolve this, then what is the right route?

[00:38:26] Eldar: I mean, what's playing out now was already written. 

[00:38:30] Katherine: Right. So what is the alternative? 

[00:38:32] Eldar: I'm asking you guys the, the alternative, the, the attachment that was built in the first place, right? The attachment that was built in the first place was, was gonna lead you to this place because there was too many holes.

[00:38:41] There was gonna be, be a mistake and this is what happened. And there's a lesson that's baked in here. 

[00:38:46] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[00:38:46] Eldar: The, the whole thing. Well, I mean, the way you should have done, it's like, okay, cool. Like this is a funny thing where you can laugh to yourself, say like, oh, I really wanted something. And No, for sure.

[00:38:55] Somebody really wanted to get it from me. Yeah. Yeah. I got it and I got the wrong thing. Yes. You'll laugh at it and you keep it. 

[00:39:00] Katherine: Yeah. So just keep it then. 

[00:39:02] Eldar: Just, and you enjoy the fuck out of it 

[00:39:05] Katherine: and you laugh. I can, how do and you laugh at life, how do you enjoy something that, okay. 

[00:39:07] Eldar: No, that's, that's the thing.

[00:39:08] That's what I'm saying, that like, it's already 

[00:39:09] Katherine: mushed, but I, I genuinely don't like the scent, so I'm not gonna wear it. 

[00:39:13] Eldar: I get it. 

[00:39:14] Katherine: You know? 

[00:39:14] Eldar: I get it. 

[00:39:14] Katherine: And my friends work really hard. 

[00:39:16] Eldar: Yes, yes. 

[00:39:17] Katherine: Uh, to, to, to pay for something like this. Yeah. So it, it just, it, it just feels, it feels a little bad, you know? 

[00:39:23] Eldar: No, fine.

[00:39:24] Katherine: I was fine before I had it. Like I never owned it before. Yeah. So I was fine, you know? Yeah, 

[00:39:29] Toliy: yeah, yeah. But I feel, yeah. But I feel like at this point, it's hard to do anything, to feel any kind of lesson of the repercussions. Right. 

[00:39:36] Katherine: But, okay. 

[00:39:37] Toliy: Like, not none, none of the have there, there's no punishment here.

[00:39:41] Right. 

[00:39:41] Eldar: There is punishment. 

[00:39:42] Katherine: Well, there is punishment. Punishment time, but, but I have a thing. I, I would, I would, yeah, 

[00:39:46] Eldar: but she's wasting time. She's wasting I would What? What do you mean? Well, no, she can waste her time all she wants, but then she, she's asking me for shit. She's asking you for shit. Yeah. She's gonna ask Tom for shit.

[00:39:54] You know what I mean? Like Yeah. Now it's a ripple where it's touching others potentially could touch the friends that, you know, if she doesn't do the right thing 

[00:40:00] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:40:01] Eldar: As well. Right. So there's a lot that's going on that's like, it could be contained if she wants to buzz around and do whatever she wants with it, that's on her own thing.

[00:40:08] Yeah. For sure. But ultimately, like there's gonna be a lot that's been wasted. 

[00:40:13] Toliy: Yeah. But, but I dunno if the person's able to like, like are you able to acknowledge all that and feel that pain? 

[00:40:18] Eldar: Oh, if you talk about it and if you raise your awareness enough. Absolutely. We think she, she don't get it. She'll get it.

[00:40:25] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:40:25] Eldar: You know, I think there's a lot of lessons when, with these types of things. 

[00:40:29] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:40:29] Eldar: You know, that just kind of baked in there, 

[00:40:31] Toliy: you know. Yeah. No, I, I, I definitely think there's definitely a lot of lessons, you know, here. 

[00:40:35] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:40:35] Toliy: Um, because like also like. When we want something, we're also not very like at times, like, I guess, informed about it.

[00:40:42] Right? 

[00:40:43] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:40:43] Toliy: And, and if like, like I think that like if you really wanted something and you put enough research into it, for example, 

[00:40:50] Eldar: yeah. 

[00:40:50] Toliy: You would know like the intricate details about it, 

[00:40:53] Eldar: that too. 

[00:40:53] Toliy: So if someone gifted it to you, for example Yeah. You would then be able to inspect it to see if it's the correct one Yeah.

[00:40:58] Before even opening it, right? Yeah. Or like doing that. 

[00:41:00] Eldar: I didn't have that information. I didn't even know Yeah. Like when the person asked me like, Hey, what, what does she want? I didn't know. 

[00:41:06] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:41:07] Eldar: Even if I tried. 

[00:41:08] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:41:08] Eldar: There's three. I didn't know there was three either. 

[00:41:10] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. No, I, so, and, and you wouldn't be able to know.

[00:41:13] Eldar: Yeah. I, that's why I, I told her, I, I told the person, I was like, Hey, like, no, find out from someone else because I really don't know. I don't wanna mislead you. Yeah. You know, I don't want to be in that camp. 

[00:41:21] Toliy: Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, 

[00:41:23] Eldar: like, 'cause it's an expensive fucking thing. 

[00:41:24] Toliy: Yeah. I mean there, there's been plenty of times that like.

[00:41:27] I want some, some something. And to, to, to me, the, the, this happens many times to me specifically in like the, uh, like wanting of like different, um, softwares, uh, space. 

[00:41:38] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:41:38] Toliy: You know, like, I want something and then I'll go and I think I re, re re research things. 

[00:41:43] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:41:44] Toliy: You know, but it's really difficult to actually like u use that like you would have to actually use that software.

[00:41:52] Eldar: Yeah. A lot of the times. Yeah. 

[00:41:53] Toliy: A lot of the times. Yeah. And when you actually use it for the long term is when you expose the things Correct. That's wrong with it. 

[00:41:57] Eldar: Correct. 

[00:41:58] Toliy: Not in your trial. 

[00:41:59] Eldar: Yes. Yes. 

[00:41:59] Toliy: In your trial, you don't know shit. 

[00:42:01] Eldar: You know the difference is because when you start looking for stuff Yeah.

[00:42:04] There's a different lens that you looking at under completely. 

[00:42:07] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:42:08] Eldar: You know? Yes. You know what I'm saying? 

[00:42:09] Mike: Yeah. The 

[00:42:09] shiny 

[00:42:10] Mike: lens. 

[00:42:10] Eldar: It's the shiny lens. Yeah. Number one and number two, a lot of times, even if the things that didn't have benefits, you start saying that I'll bend myself in such a way where I'll make it fit.

[00:42:20] Toliy: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure. This happens 

[00:42:22] Eldar: all the time. 

[00:42:23] Toliy: And then to me, like, 

[00:42:24] Eldar: yeah, 

[00:42:24] Toliy: I've already been burned so many times of like. Signing up for things. Yeah. And then I, and then like, I get what I wanted and then it wasn't what I wanted, and then I'm stuck. 

[00:42:33] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:42:33] Toliy: In like, yeah. What, what I did up until again, like I have that new opportunity 

[00:42:37] Eldar: mm-hmm.

[00:42:38] Toliy: To then maybe, uh, like try to do, do things in a more proper way and evaluate like, and what is that correctly? 

[00:42:44] Eldar: What does that, how does that, how does that look like? 

[00:42:45] Toliy: Well, yeah. That, that, that it's like you have a more now informed and evolved like view. 

[00:42:50] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:42:50] Toliy: And you're more careful as to like mm-hmm.

[00:42:53] What you commit to or what you, um, go after. Say you 

[00:42:58] Eldar: want, 

[00:42:58] Toliy: say you want. 

[00:42:59] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:42:59] Toliy: You know, um, yeah. 'cause like to actually want something and then when you get it to be happy with it, you would've, you have to be very careful 

[00:43:09] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:43:09] Toliy: To begin with. 

[00:43:10] Eldar: That's 

[00:43:10] Mike: true. 

[00:43:10] Toliy: But if you're not careful 

[00:43:12] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:43:12] Toliy: Then yeah, I went through so many different like softwares and I, I'm, uh, unhappy every single time because it, they constantly don't work in the way that like, I want them to work.

[00:43:22] Mike: That you envision they would work. 

[00:43:23] Toliy: Yeah. And. And like I go as far as like, I'm, I'm like, I'm in, so I'm in constant support emails with like the engineering team. 

[00:43:31] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:43:32] Toliy: And they're like, oh, good catch. Yeah. We didn't like, you know, like think of this or like, yeah. We have to build that, you know, to work that way.

[00:43:38] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:43:38] Toliy: You know? 

[00:43:39] Eldar: Alright, so tie this to change. How does these attachments also hurt us? Stunt our growth towards change? 

[00:43:46] Mike: Oh. How does our attachments turn some change? 

[00:43:49] Eldar: Yeah. Our desires. 

[00:43:52] Mike: Well, I don't think you can, uh, progress when you're locked in to some something when you're like locked in, attached to something.

[00:43:59] I don't think you can move past it or progress from it until that's until 

[00:44:03] Eldar: distinguished, 

[00:44:04] Mike: until you either, you know, scratch the itch. 

[00:44:07] Eldar: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:07] Mike: Or you band the itch. 

[00:44:09] Eldar: There you go. There you go. 

[00:44:11] Toliy: Well, desires. It just sounds like in in general, stunt growth or stunt stunt change 

[00:44:18] Mike: our relationship with desires.

[00:44:20] Can I have things that I desire? Yeah. Right. 

[00:44:23] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:44:23] Mike: But. I don't have like a, yeah, like some things in the future I desire, but it doesn't stop me. Like, it doesn't like, oh, I'm like, oh man, this fucked up. So you 

[00:44:35] Eldar: have a healthy relationship 

[00:44:36] Mike: with that specific desire? Yeah, I can don't think anything. I'm not sure.

[00:44:38] I don't actually think if anything itself actually carries any good or bad. It's always gonna be that human element that, in our interaction, whether it's gonna make that bad for us or not, or good for us. 

[00:44:50] Toliy: But do, do you, do you, do you think although it's possible to, like, can you have long-term desires without it stunting, like your growth and change?

[00:45:02] Do you think that's possible? 

[00:45:05] Eldar: I mean, depends depending on what's baked in into that, those goals, I guess 

[00:45:08] Toliy: because yeah, to, to me, automatically. Yeah. When you, um, like if you bring in a, uh, desire that you have that, uh, I don't know, is a, a big one. Mm-hmm. I think there's, it, it creates lots of opportunities for stunted growth or for difficul somewhere else.

[00:45:26] Eldar: Maybe 

[00:45:26] Toliy: Yes. For difficulties with 

[00:45:28] Eldar: change. Sure. But that's, I think that's a sacrifice that you choose, 

[00:45:31] Toliy: but you don't realize 

[00:45:33] Eldar: you should realize it. Yeah. You should realize it for sure. You should say, okay. Like, I, I realize that I'm going on this journey right here, but I potentially can, you know, mess this up and I'm okay with that.

[00:45:46] Katherine: Yeah, 

[00:45:47] Toliy: yeah. But I feel like that that's like a, 

[00:45:49] Eldar: that's a hard one, 

[00:45:49] Toliy: a very rare type of, uh, of mindset. 

[00:45:53] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:45:53] Toliy: You know? 

[00:45:54] Eldar: Yeah. Plus you need to really identify what those things are. I know, 

[00:45:59] Toliy: yeah. That, that whi which to me, it's a hard mindset to have, but like, if you have that like very short term kind of like, um, desire it, like mindset, like you generally I think probably feel like a lot better.

[00:46:16] Mm-hmm. Like, it's more of like being in like the moment type of mindset, right? 

[00:46:22] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[00:46:22] Toliy: Like if it's, I don't know, 8:00 PM or 9:00 PM if you're like, okay, I like if, if you're just focused on like taking it easy and getting good rest 

[00:46:33] Eldar: Mm. Okay. Those things, 

[00:46:35] Toliy: that's, that's what you desire. Okay. When you wake up 

[00:46:37] Eldar: Mm.

[00:46:38] Toliy: Now you have another like short term desire. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Not saying, Hey, like I desire to get good sleep every day for the next 90 days. 

[00:46:44] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:46:45] Toliy: That's like a, or like, like, 

[00:46:47] Eldar: yeah. 

[00:46:47] Toliy: That's, that's like a big desire, you know? 

[00:46:49] Eldar: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It, it's like a setup. 

[00:46:52] Toliy: Yeah. But it's a very difficult just to think in that level of short-term where like, Hey, I just wanna have a good evening.

[00:46:57] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:46:58] Toliy: To, 

[00:46:58] Mike: yeah. It could be bad again, depending on your relationship with that thing. Yeah. It depends 

[00:47:03] Eldar: on the relationship with that thing. 

[00:47:05] Mike: Yeah. Like I have a desire to buy a house one day, but I'm not losing sleep over it, you know? 

[00:47:10] Toliy: But how do you know that that's not affecting you and suffering? 

[00:47:15] Mike: I mean, like, we could just probably sit every and dissect everything to like to, and discuss that.

[00:47:21] I mean, that'd be, you would've to really, he has to 

[00:47:23] Eldar: be very honest about how it's affecting him. He has to think about it. 

[00:47:27] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:47:28] Eldar: If it's affecting him in a negative way. 

[00:47:30] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:47:30] Eldar: You know what I mean? 

[00:47:31] Mike: Yeah. Or maybe it's a goal. I don't know. Is it a desire? How 

[00:47:33] Eldar: much pressure is he putting on himself? 

[00:47:35] Mike: Yeah. Like, I'm not like, you know, saying, you know what, I'm not gonna eat today because I wanna save a fucking 

[00:47:39] Eldar: a dollar 

[00:47:40] Mike: extra $5 so I could put away towards my house.

[00:47:43] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:47:45] Mike: You know? But I'm also open to like, Hey, I may never get this house. I might have to do a hybrid. I'm gonna have to be like a RV guy or something. 

[00:47:51] Eldar: You, yeah. So, 

[00:47:53] Mike: yeah, sure. 

[00:47:54] Eldar: A big one too for us. Like, we want to have kids. Yeah. But we're not having kids. 

[00:47:59] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:48:00] Eldar: And it's like, if it happens, great, but if it, if it doesn't, I'm like, I'm not gonna be losing sleep over it.

[00:48:05] It is what it is. 

[00:48:05] Katherine: Yeah. That was probably one of the, 

[00:48:08] Eldar: for you Yeah. 

[00:48:09] Katherine: Most monumental changes I had to do. Yeah. In terms of desires, 

[00:48:13] Mike: yeah. 

[00:48:14] Katherine: I would've to say, 

[00:48:15] Mike: yeah. I don't, I just, to me, I can't, I can't jump over the fact that nothing inherently is good or bad without our human lens on it. Yeah. Or a human thing on it.

[00:48:26] And, and until we can prove it that, or disprove that, then I, my always response would be like, yeah, it is what it is. It's like, yeah, okay, sure. Maybe, maybe not. Is it bad for me? Maybe, maybe not. 

[00:48:40] Toliy: No, but you are putting a cu human lens on it, right? 

[00:48:43] Mike: I know that. Yeah. Yeah. But that's everything in life. 

[00:48:46] Toliy: Well, yeah.

[00:48:47] So then like 

[00:48:47] Mike: the fact though, I think the variable that makes a good or bad is the 

[00:48:50] Eldar: humans. 

[00:48:50] Mike: Yeah. And I have a choice. Yeah. Your 

[00:48:52] Eldar: lus. 

[00:48:53] Mike: If I have a bad attitude towards it, then I'm gonna suffer. If I have like, okay. Attitude towards it, I won't suffer. Like, 

[00:48:59] Toliy: but the, but the question is, I think, is that, like, what's the.

[00:49:01] When, when we think about those types of desires, I guess, like what, what purpose do they serve? That that's like, what do you mean positive in our lives? 

[00:49:11] Mike: I'm not sure what you mean. 

[00:49:12] Toliy: Like 

[00:49:15] Mike: I'm 

[00:49:15] Katherine: not, I guess, I guess sometimes they, they, they're, they're like how they're linked to how, how you see your future, what you want.

[00:49:23] Like for example, you know, technically I guess you, you wouldn't say that desiring a home is a bad thing Right. But it can cause you suffering. 

[00:49:31] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:49:31] Katherine: In certain ways. Desiring a family is an inherently like a bad thing. But if that's not coming at, at, at a specific time, for example, it ca it can cause people pain.

[00:49:43] Yeah. 

[00:49:44] Katherine: You know, 

[00:49:44] Eldar: but 

[00:49:44] Katherine: those 

[00:49:44] Mike: desires, if you's if you wanted by a certain age, you're gonna stop putting pressure on yourself. Oh yeah, yeah, 

[00:49:49] Eldar: yeah. Yeah. 

[00:49:49] Mike: The thing is we, we, I think we all live and we all have desires, you know? Yeah. Because, um. No, some small, some big, right? 

[00:50:00] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:50:00] Mike: And I don't think, uh, I don't know how we get away from it, like, uh, unless we renounce everything, just say, you know what?

[00:50:09] I'm not gonna have no desires. I'm just gonna desire to be a, like a, a Buddhist enlight and to just 

[00:50:13] Toliy: like, no, but I'm, I'm saying do nothing. The sense of like, like look, I, I mean, of course I want, you know, particular things as well, but then when I, I feel like when we examine those things 

[00:50:23] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[00:50:23] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:50:24] Toliy: I feel like it's like, um, 

[00:50:26] Eldar: we're not talking about Chinese pears right now.

[00:50:28] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:50:28] Eldar: Yeah. Or 

[00:50:30] Katherine: the z orange. What about nice grill or something, you know? 

[00:50:33] Toliy: No, we got that. The, uh, the, uh, like the, uh, very small wins in our life. 

[00:50:38] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:50:40] Toliy: They're not put in the forefront or they're not like, um, I guess they don't feel as desirable ev as like the big things. 

[00:50:48] Mike: Yeah. But, 

[00:50:49] Toliy: but they're the things that, um, will actually create those, those things.

[00:50:54] Right. So it's. Right. It's like 

[00:50:57] Mike: that's different though. I think what you're describing, I think you're describing the process like Yeah. Just because you desire something and you just desire it, it's not getting bring closer. You actually gotta do the work. Well, no, I, I'm saying that like, now if you do the work in a non-virtuous way, then that desire and that whole ecosystem is gonna suffer.

[00:51:13] No, I'm, that's why you have to be mindful of that. That's why your human lens 

[00:51:16] Eldar: to 

[00:51:16] Mike: it, 

[00:51:17] Toliy: I'm saying more of like, I'm not sure if it serves you to actually have those kinds of desires to begin with 

[00:51:23] Mike: at 

[00:51:23] Eldar: all. 

[00:51:23] Toliy: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:51:26] Eldar: Well, well Buddha say that, that, yeah. Yeah. Even having desires in the first place is gonna cause suffering.

[00:51:30] Mike: Sure. Uh, yeah. What you're saying is true. If you, if you, uh, if you wanna live that kinda life, then sure, but I'm okay. Like, doing that kind of desire and understanding that like. What it is. 

[00:51:44] Eldar: Yeah. The, the, the, the thin line between there is as long as you don't act on it, and that's a difficult thing to do.

[00:51:49] What, 

[00:51:49] Mike: what's that? 

[00:51:50] Eldar: If you have a desire, but you don't really act on it, it doesn't really affect you. 

[00:51:53] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:51:54] Eldar: In a negative way. Let's just say Uhhuh. Yes, totally. Saying that it affects you a negative way, whether you like it or not, you just don't know it. Yes. When you have a desire, but you don't act on it. No.

[00:52:02] If you, you're gonna act on it somehow, Uhhuh, you know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, I'm saying like, if you have the ability to have a desire and not act on it, it 

[00:52:08] Toliy: compromises your decision making. 

[00:52:10] Eldar: It does. It could be what I'm could Because you have a horse in the race with certain things. Yes, for sure. Oh, yes.

[00:52:14] Okay. So I don't, I didn't understand. So how, how would that work? What mean I 

[00:52:18] Mike: didn't, I didn't understand what you guys, like, 

[00:52:20] Eldar: what we're saying is that like, look, if you have some kind of a desire, you want some kind of an outcome, 

[00:52:24] Katherine: is it like having a bias. 

[00:52:26] Eldar: Somewhere like you have a bias or something, you, some kind, some kind of a bias.

[00:52:29] You have some kind of horse in a race for that specific thing to turn out and somewhere in, in the background, something's causing you suffering of pressure. 

[00:52:36] Toliy: I, I, I can give an example. Mm-hmm. Like for example, 

[00:52:40] Eldar: sure. 

[00:52:41] Toliy: I definitely set 

[00:52:42] Eldar: and now you 

[00:52:43] Mike: this example based on what you're saying, it has to be universally always true then, right?

[00:52:47] If this is how it works. 

[00:52:49] Hopefully, 

[00:52:50] Mike: um, 

[00:52:50] Toliy: what do you, what do you mean? 

[00:52:51] Mike: Well, the way you're saying is like, hey, if you have a desire, then you are automatically suffering, right? Mm-hmm. 

[00:52:55] Toliy: Well, this, gimme an example of how I suffered, right? 

[00:52:57] Mike: But I'm not real life. Is this your experience or is every, if every single person would also have the same experience?

[00:53:02] Toliy: Well, no, I'm giving you a, like a real life example of mine. 

[00:53:04] Mike: Yeah. Okay. Well, we're gonna see whether or not it go, it applies to everyone. Hold your horses. Dammit. 

[00:53:10] Eldar: Yeah, 

[00:53:11] Toliy: yeah. Example, let's hear if this personal example applies to 

[00:53:13] Eldar: everything. 

[00:53:13] Toliy: Like, for example, um, from a very early pre premature time, uh, I wanted like, uh, um, our company to revenue a certain amount, right?

[00:53:23] Eldar: Yeah. Yes. 

[00:53:23] Toliy: Mm-hmm. You know? Yes. And I made very particular statements and desires as to like what I wanted and how I wanted it, um, like to happen and how fast I thought it was gonna happen. Yeah. Mm-hmm. You know, 

[00:53:34] Katherine: that's very similar to wanting a, a family bias, or no, by the by 30 I wanna have my children.

[00:53:39] Toliy: Yes, yes. 

[00:53:40] Katherine: That's the 

[00:53:40] Toliy: same thing, obviously, obviously, you know, looking at it now, of course, with a different lens. It was an extremely, like, stupid and arrogant and like 

[00:53:49] Katherine: mm-hmm. 

[00:53:50] Toliy: Ju just, just like overall like disgusting statement as to like, like who do you think you are making these kinds of like 

[00:53:56] Katherine: mm-hmm.

[00:53:57] Toliy: Desires or claims to begin with. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like that, that's how I look at it now. 

[00:54:00] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:54:00] Toliy: And what happened was that, like, with that statement, which general Pub public would be like, oh, like he's ambitious. You know, like that, that's like, 

[00:54:09] Katherine: that's a good, that's esteemed in society, in today's society, you know, 

[00:54:13] Toliy: like, like they, they could think about it that way, you 

[00:54:15] Eldar: know?

[00:54:15] And they didn't realize you landed in hell 

[00:54:17] Toliy: Yeah, yeah. In philosophy club. Yeah. So when I made that, when, when I, when, when I said that, for example. Mm-hmm. Um, what happens is that it created a lot of, um, behaviors 

[00:54:28] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[00:54:28] Toliy: That I did not realize that I was doing in the more, in, in, in those different moments 

[00:54:33] Mike: Okay.

[00:54:33] Toliy: That were actually tied 

[00:54:35] Mike: mm-hmm. 

[00:54:35] Toliy: To that end type of desire. Mm-hmm. So what happened was that because I had this, um, goal for example, or I made this like, um, or, or like, I have this desire. I put myself on a particular program where I'm actually not able to be conscious in those mo moments. Mm-hmm. And I'm actually not able to realize that my behaviors are actually subconscious responses from my conscious desire that I made before.

[00:55:01] Katherine: Mm-hmm. So 

[00:55:03] Toliy: I was operating in particular ways that caused me a lot of pain from have, having that type type of, like long-term or like big desire. 

[00:55:15] Katherine: Mm-hmm. Okay. 

[00:55:15] Toliy: But I did not know that in those moments, nor did I connect that. Mm-hmm. That like, hey, like this pain is actually happening because of what I said before, because of my desire before.

[00:55:26] Eldar: Okay. 

[00:55:27] Toliy: Yeah. And like an example of that where like she couldn't 

[00:55:28] Eldar: track back like all the suffering that's causing it. Oh yeah, 

[00:55:31] Toliy: sure. 

[00:55:31] Eldar: I, 

[00:55:31] Toliy: I mean, I agree with that. Yeah. And there was plenty of moments where like, like I could be like, um, esteeming people that have like been there and done that and like, uh, putting them, them, them above me, for example, or like.

[00:55:44] Um, trying to do things that would potentially go against how I feel about things. Mm-hmm. All because I have this, but not realizing, but 

[00:55:50] Mike: yeah. 

[00:55:51] Okay. 

[00:55:51] Toliy: Not realizing in those moments that this is what I'm doing because of that conscious, um, desire. It actually affected many, many years of decision making. 

[00:56:03] Eldar: Yeah.

[00:56:03] Toliy: Because of it. 

[00:56:04] Eldar: Sure. I understand. So what he's saying is that there are desires that you might think that like, oh, they're not really affecting you. Yeah. But they are. You just don't know that they are. The thing 

[00:56:12] Mike: is, yeah, sure. 

[00:56:13] Eldar: And we can't prove it or disprove that. We 

[00:56:14] Mike: can't prove. Well, I think, yeah. 

[00:56:15] Eldar: You know what I'm saying?

[00:56:16] Mike: You can't prove it or disprove, but I think when you build a desire, Uhhuh, right? 

[00:56:19] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:56:20] Mike: There's, I guess I understand it to be, there's desires that are created from different places, right? 

[00:56:25] Eldar: Sure. 

[00:56:26] Mike: Toll's desire was driven from one place. 

[00:56:28] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:56:28] Mike: And other designs can be driven from other places. No. Yeah. If you have a, if you have the core of why you're desiring and what the reason is, 

[00:56:35] Eldar: Uhhuh, well gimme an example of, of desires that you had a like.

[00:56:42] It didn't turn out that way. 

[00:56:44] Mike: Oh, yeah. I mean, I definitely have plenty of examples. Like he just said, 

[00:56:46] Eldar: you know what I'm 

[00:56:47] Mike: saying? Like I'm talking about the other side though, 

[00:56:48] Eldar: about 

[00:56:49] Mike: like if you have a desire for it to do something good, to do something the right way. 

[00:56:51] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:56:52] Mike: Like I didn't say, Hey, I wanna buy a house and 

[00:56:53] Eldar: Yeah.

[00:56:54] Mike: And next year and I need to save this much money and this is what I need to do. Yeah. I said, Hey, I just wanna buy a house. 

[00:56:58] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:56:58] Mike: There's a desire I have. 

[00:56:59] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:57:01] Mike: I didn't say, if I don't buy it, I'm gonna fucking be miserable. Yeah. Or if I don't buy it in five years, I'm gonna be miserable. Right? Yeah. Like, I didn't set myself up for that in this thing.

[00:57:09] So 

[00:57:09] Eldar: then what is it? Then like, 

[00:57:10] Mike: Hmm. 

[00:57:10] Eldar: Then, then, then like, okay, so then you almost stripping desire from desire, but then, okay, you just made a statement, so what? 

[00:57:18] Mike: Yeah. It's a desire, right? And 

[00:57:20] Eldar: yeah, 

[00:57:20] Mike: if the cards are aligned for me to save money, 

[00:57:23] Eldar: yeah. But why say it in the first place? 

[00:57:25] Mike: Oh. Because, because we're talking about desire, the desire that I have.

[00:57:28] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:57:28] Mike: And if I have the opportunity, like, okay, if I have the opportunity to make money 

[00:57:32] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:57:33] Mike: To save money, 

[00:57:34] Eldar: yeah. 

[00:57:34] Mike: Then I will do that. Do things to make that happen. Right now I don't have that opportunity. 

[00:57:38] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:57:39] Mike: To make money. To save money. 

[00:57:40] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:57:40] Mike: Right. 

[00:57:41] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:57:42] Mike: And that's the situation. 

[00:57:43] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:57:44] Mike: But I'm not upset about it.

[00:57:45] Like, and I didn't like set myself up like, Hey, you know what, in five years I'm gonna have this house. 

[00:57:50] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:57:51] Mike: I didn't put like a time restriction on it. 

[00:57:52] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:57:53] Mike: And, and, and I think also a lot of desires can be born from a place of like insecurity. Mm-hmm. Or feeling not, uh, like low self-esteem things, right?

[00:58:03] Mm-hmm. Too. Yeah. You know, like, oh, I need to make all this money to prove to other people that I'm wrong. Yeah. There's a different thing of saying like, Hey, you know, I wanna, uh, do something that, yeah. I don't know. To me the thought of like, if your intentions 

[00:58:15] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[00:58:15] Mike: Are good and you have a desire that's also good.

[00:58:18] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:58:19] Mike: Why, what's the problem there? 

[00:58:21] Eldar: There's no problem. She's just arguing for the fact that like, you might not be seeing certain things that are actually, are, are in effect mm-hmm. That might be affecting you that you're just not aware of yet. 

[00:58:29] Mike: Mm. 

[00:58:30] Eldar: Time will tell. 

[00:58:31] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:58:32] Eldar: Time will tell. You will know. 

[00:58:34] Mike: Okay.

[00:58:35] Sure. 

[00:58:35] Eldar: Yeah. You, you will. No, you will know. Sure. Like, not us, you, you. Yeah. Because you might not even vocalize it to us. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Because you would go through it exter internally. 

[00:58:42] Mike: Yeah. And this applies to every single de desire, 

[00:58:44] Eldar: all the device. This is what he's arguing for. Mm. 

[00:58:46] Mike: How would we ever prove or disprove anything like that?

[00:58:48] Eldar: The only way to prove it or disprove is to go through these experiences. You have one right now, and you're saying that like, I might not run into this and then be honest with yourself, that's all. Mm-hmm. 

[00:58:58] Toliy: Yeah. Like to, to, to me for stuff like that. Mm-hmm. Um, it's very difficult for me to like, believe or think that it doesn't have an impact on it.

[00:59:09] Mike: Well, sure. I mean, I, I can also believe that like, we can believe a lot of things, but like, we're not in the world of believing. Right? We're trying to like logically understand things. 

[00:59:16] Eldar: Right. Look, I think everything, uh, cau makes an impact on us. Specifically desires cause suffering. Yes. So 

[00:59:22] Mike: use that word.

[00:59:23] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:59:24] Mike: Suffering. Mm-hmm. Yes. It's gonna cause you suffering. Yes. Is guaranteed suffering. This is 

[00:59:28] Eldar: what he's saying. Yes. But how can you 

[00:59:29] Mike: not just impact, 

[00:59:30] Eldar: obviously the desiring a house, there's gonna be impact of that, but specifically it's talking about suffering. 

[00:59:36] Mike: So how is that guaranteed that anytime we have desire, there's gonna be guaranteed suffering?

[00:59:40] Totally. 

[00:59:40] Toliy: Well, for first off, I think like from, from, from like a core of it, I think desires lead to suffering. Right. That, that's like factual. Right. 

[00:59:50] Mike: Well, how is look? Um, I'm not sure. How is it factual? Where are the facts? 

[00:59:55] Toliy: Well, 

[00:59:56] Mike: like if I have a desire not to eat an apple. 

[00:59:58] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:59:58] Mike: Right. Yeah. I'm gonna eat Apple.

[01:00:00] Where's the suffering? 

[01:00:03] Toliy: Well, I mean that's like a very well, um. I dunno, what if the apple was, was, uh, like poison? 

[01:00:08] Mike: Well, and I ing different factors. 

[01:00:10] Toliy: Yeah, but you didn't say like, it's funny in my mind 

[01:00:12] Mike: I'm, I'm not, I didn't say I'm desiring to eat a poisonous apple. Poison. 

[01:00:16] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. But you didn't, but you weren't specific with all also, like what, what you said, 

[01:00:20] Mike: I think now it's just the semantics thing.

[01:00:23] You are just trying to say, well, oh yeah, what if the apple is poisoned? I mean, sure. 

[01:00:27] Toliy: Well, no, but you, you also desire also have a very like, uh, like, um, like I'm, I'm more talking about like the, uh, the, uh, desires for stuff like that. I think that, um, you maybe minimizing the impact that they actually have on how you think you operate and all of the different decisions that you make.

[01:00:43] Mike: I, I agree. I understand. You're giving me a hypothetical and a theory, but I'd like to 

[01:00:47] Toliy: understand. No, I'm not giving a hypothetical. I'm saying that, that, that like, that's actually what's happening. 

[01:00:50] Mike: But if you're saying that's actually happening, you have to give me a proof that's actually what's happening.

[01:00:55] Like, I would like to understand how you can actually prove that. 

[01:00:58] Well, 

[01:00:58] Toliy: you actually, well, you don't have like your own proof that like you have desires for things and then they bite you in the ass because like. Of, of, uh, like, of how they play played out, like you have, you haven't experienced that over and over again.

[01:01:10] Mike: So you're saying anytime you ever had anybody ever had a desire, it always played out bad. 

[01:01:15] Toliy: I'm saying that like, um, there's 

[01:01:16] Mike: no such thing as good desires and that you've never had, you've never actually experienced any good desires yourself. 

[01:01:22] Toliy: Well, no, I'm saying that like, um, I'm saying that that like, there's countless examples of plenty of times 

[01:01:31] Mike: I'm not, and now I'm not arguing for the countless, nobody 

[01:01:33] Toliy: asking me for 

[01:01:34] Mike: desires.

[01:01:34] You're giving me a hundred, you're giving me a hundred to zero. This is, I'm asking for that because this is the standard you put, you said all desires 

[01:01:42] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:01:42] Mike: Are equal suffering. 

[01:01:43] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:01:43] Mike: Gimme the a hundred to zero and then I can, then I, I'll be like, okay, gimme the proof of that, that anybody who ever had a desire.

[01:01:51] It ended up the suffering and I'm not talking and then, and the suffering. It's like, Hey, I went to play basketball. I 

[01:01:57] Toliy: had a good 

[01:01:58] Mike: time. 

[01:01:58] Toliy: Yeah, understand. Yeah. But I don't understand, like, how, can I give you an answer here? If every answer I give you, you're gonna say, is this, like, how are you gonna prove to me that this happens every single time?

[01:02:07] Like, what, what kind of answer can I, can I, can I provide? But 

[01:02:09] Mike: then how can you prove, how can you defend the other side then? 

[01:02:12] Toliy: Well, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a, I'm, I'm challenging that, that the, the, that way of thinking through giving examples and, um, and like giving, like what, what, what I think about the 

[01:02:26] Mike: other, so you've never situation, so you're saying that you've never had a desire that was a good desire and that ended up good.

[01:02:30] Every single desire that you ever had was a suffering one that ended in suffering. 

[01:02:34] Toliy: I would say that any, like, any, any large, um. Long term desires I had for the most part. But yeah, probably ended up in and immense amount of suffering until I realized mm-hmm. Until I real realized like, what they actually take take.

[01:02:52] And then I learned a lot from it. And then like, I had to go back in my words and then I had to like, um, start smaller. Right. And then I had like that iteration, like level happened, like thousands and thou and like thousands of times. 

[01:03:08] Mike: I agree that a hundred percent. I agree with 

[01:03:09] Toliy: that. But yeah, I think any, any like, um, desires that happen down on the line.

[01:03:15] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:03:16] Toliy: Yeah. I would say that like, they probably all, all, all created a lot of unnecessary suffering. No, no other, 

[01:03:23] Eldar: well, look, I'm gonna bring in a friend Buddha into this, an expert on this 

[01:03:27] Toliy: mm-hmm. 

[01:03:28] Eldar: Who said, according to Buddhist's four noble truths, suffering is caused by craving or selfish desire. This craving 

[01:03:34] Mike: selfish desire.

[01:03:36] Right? 

[01:03:36] Eldar: Yes. 

[01:03:37] Mike: Okay. 

[01:03:37] Eldar: And if you really read the text, the only, the only actual desire is commendable is the one that to, to get enlightened. 

[01:03:45] Mike: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[01:03:46] Eldar: That gets the pass. This craving, which stems from attachment, leads to frustration and pain. When desires are not met, or when leading pleasure pleasures fade, the path to ending suffering involves overcoming attachment, not necessarily suppressing all desires.

[01:04:03] Okay. Key insights on desire and suffering, the root cause. The second noble truth identifies cravings as the origin of s suffering. Okay. So craving, I have a craving to do this, do that, buy a house, whatever. That's a craving. That's the origin of it. 

[01:04:18] Toliy: Mm-hmm. Okay. 

[01:04:19] Eldar: The encompassing desire for sensual pleasure, existence, and non-existence.

[01:04:24] Right. Uh, the nature of attachment suffering arises because we clinging to impermanent things like objects, people and experiences expecting them to bring lasting satisfaction. So the analogy of salt water Buddha compared pursuing desires to drinking salt water, the more you drink the thirstier you become 

[01:04:43] Toliy: mm-hmm.

[01:04:44] Eldar: Leaning into a vicious cycle of dissatisfied dissatisfaction. 

[01:04:47] Toliy: And I would also guess the person who's doing this that doesn't know that he's drinking the salt water, 

[01:04:51] Eldar: of course, 

[01:04:51] Toliy: doesn't know that he's gonna get more thirsty. 

[01:04:52] Eldar: Yes. 

[01:04:53] Toliy: Okay. 

[01:04:53] Eldar: Probably not. 

[01:04:54] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:04:54] Eldar: That's why you keep doing it. Skillful versus unskillful desire.

[01:04:58] Here you go. Mike Buddhism differentiates between destructive cravings, which is the unskillful and positive motivations, which is skillful. The desire for liberation. The a full path is considered a skillful desire. 

[01:05:11] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:05:12] Eldar: That ultimately leads to cessation of all cravings. See that. 

[01:05:15] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:05:16] Eldar: A skillful desire 

[01:05:17] Mike: Yeah.

[01:05:18] Eldar: Is the, the one that gets the pass. Mm-hmm. If you only like, you know, want to get enlightened 

[01:05:22] Mike: mm-hmm. 

[01:05:23] Eldar: Letting go, the solution is not merely having no desires, but rather cultivating detachment, understanding the impermanent nature of life and letting go of the craving that causes mental suffering. I think that's what we're talking about.

[01:05:36] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:05:36] Eldar: I think we're talking about trying to lean towards what you're saying 

[01:05:39] Mike: mm-hmm. 

[01:05:39] Eldar: Is to identify these desires, know how to operate them and stuff. Yeah. In such ways where they're less harmful to us. Well, 

[01:05:45] Mike: that's what I'm saying, but 

[01:05:46] Eldar: Yeah. I'm 

[01:05:47] Mike: saying, but totally is not agreeing with that. He said, 

[01:05:48] Eldar: oh, desires don't have that.

[01:05:50] I mean, 

[01:05:50] Toliy: no, but I think that that, that the de desire that, that you have to me is likely to cause you suffering. That, that's why I'm saying 

[01:05:57] Eldar: I think in, in the, in the big, in the big scheme of things for your house, for example, your desire to house, I think it's gonna carry a bunch of suffering actually.

[01:06:05] Actually. Mm-hmm. That you might not be aware of now. 

[01:06:07] Mike: Oh, I, I understand what you're saying. Yeah. You 

[01:06:09] Eldar: know 

[01:06:09] Mike: what 

[01:06:09] Toliy: I'm saying? That that's what I'm saying then. Like the Yeah. Like, that's what I'm saying is that like, tho those kinds of desires 

[01:06:17] Mike: to me, me are guaranteed it's, but the thing is, and I think this is what it said, the suffering is from, uh, not like, uh, unforeseen things, right?

[01:06:27] Like, you got, you're gonna get angry 'cause you fucking plumbing broke. Well, that's the thing for sure. Are you 

[01:06:32] Eldar: gonna get into this house with that mindfulness Uhhuh, right. And ca and be able to carry everything that it needs in order to be graceful about every moment. If that's what you are to be, I mean, more power to you, obviously.

[01:06:45] No, 

[01:06:45] Mike: I mean, listen, I'm not, I'm not superhuman like 

[01:06:46] Eldar: that. But that's, that's what he's saying though. Like ultimately, like shit's gonna hit the fan and you probably not gonna be ready for it. But is it your, is it your desires that cause the suffering or their attachment 

[01:06:55] Mike: to 

[01:06:55] Eldar: cause the suffering? 

[01:06:55] Mike: That 

[01:06:56] Eldar: both of those things?

[01:06:56] Both, 

[01:06:57] Toliy: yeah, they're, they're hand in hand. 

[01:06:58] Eldar: Yeah. The birth is the first, the attachment, you birth it by one year. 

[01:07:02] Toliy: And in this example, and, and, and in this example, I think that like, like you, you, you wouldn't agree that your desire, for example, to have a house has already caused you suffering. 

[01:07:12] Mike: Uh, yeah, yeah.

[01:07:14] Right. I mean there's definitely Yeah. Has, yeah. Okay. 

[01:07:17] Toliy: Right. 

[01:07:17] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:07:18] Toliy: Like, like, I mean, we, we were just looking like, what, like a year ago or so, 

[01:07:22] Mike: Uhhuh, 

[01:07:22] Toliy: right? Like. Obviously if you go somewhere, I know it's too expensive, but you liked it, you definitely feel a way about it. Right? You definitely suffer. Oh yeah. You, it, it, it, it, it affects your life.

[01:07:32] 'cause you have notifications and you start scrolling For sure. You start looking. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You wanna start seeing places like 

[01:07:37] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[01:07:37] Katherine: The time spent. 

[01:07:38] Toliy: Yeah. Like, yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. So like that desire that you had, I think that like, not, not only could it continue to cause you suffering, but I think it already has.

[01:07:46] Yeah. You know? Yeah, 

[01:07:48] Eldar: sure. And, and same thing here with the kids, despite the fact that maybe I'm nonchalant about it, but I'll be a liar if I tell you like, I'm completely not nonchalant about it. Like, 

[01:07:57] Mike: no, I get 

[01:07:58] Eldar: it. You know what I'm saying? Like, to have kids, it's like, you, you, you know, you with a partner, it's, it's like a, it's a two thing, two-way streak here.

[01:08:05] Yeah. And like, there's so much that's going on. Mm-hmm. There's pressures from one side, another side, you know what I mean? Like, there's so many variables for it. There's just so many variables that like, 

[01:08:11] Toliy: so much, yeah. 

[01:08:12] Eldar: I would like to take it on as graceful as possible, but I think it's nearly impossible.

[01:08:16] Toliy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. You 

[01:08:17] Eldar: know what I mean? 

[01:08:18] Toliy: Yeah. So.

[01:08:21] Eldar: So I think you just try to do your best, you know what I mean? And try to identify those things so they don't cause you sleepless nights. 

[01:08:28] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[01:08:28] Eldar: Right. Yeah, definitely. You know? 

[01:08:31] Toliy: Yeah. I think it's like in, in, in the things that you're talking about, I think like they're probably more closely linked if you have a desire, I dunno, to like learn better or, or if you have a desire for more like virtuous like things mm-hmm.

[01:08:45] You know, then I think it's like you're still going to suffer potentially maybe if you don't get them. But I think there may be, um, there may be more like, well, yeah, I think you're gonna suffer because 

[01:08:56] Mike: the learning process is, is definitely includes some suffering. Yeah. 

[01:08:59] Toliy: Yes. But yeah. But, but I think that they're like, they, they will be, um, probably like more productive for you and like they'll.

[01:09:07] Opportunity. Well, that's what they 

[01:09:09] Eldar: give the unity. He gives the past. Like if you're going towards enlightenment. 

[01:09:11] Toliy: Yes. 

[01:09:11] Eldar: Those are skillful desires, 

[01:09:13] Toliy: skill. Yes. 

[01:09:13] Eldar: Good. 

[01:09:14] Toliy: Yes. Mm-hmm. 

[01:09:14] Eldar: But you know, nonetheless, they are and they're gonna be hard. 

[01:09:17] Toliy: Yeah. But they're, but there are things that you're going to, to, to use and like, um, 

[01:09:22] Eldar: to, to better benefit yourself and humanity.

[01:09:25] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. You know, they're, they're, they're like forever skills that will affect you in so many parts of your life. So, yeah. 

[01:09:34] Eldar: So how does that tie to change? 

[01:09:38] Toliy: I don't know 

[01:09:38] Eldar: all shit 

[01:09:39] Toliy: to change 

[01:09:40] Eldar: all this attachment that's holding us back from learning. 

[01:09:43] Katherine: It's funny how much we focused on desire. Actually. I realize now we, we've been talking about it for 

[01:09:47] Eldar: a 

[01:09:47] Katherine: while.

[01:09:48] Eldar: It's 

[01:09:48] Katherine: a, there's a big 

[01:09:48] Eldar: connection. The 

[01:09:49] Toliy: desire is is like a big, like, blocker of change. 

[01:09:52] Eldar: It stunts you. 

[01:09:53] Toliy: Stunts you. Yeah. 

[01:09:54] Eldar: You know? 

[01:09:55] Toliy: Yeah. Because like, I 

[01:09:56] Katherine: can see that. 

[01:09:57] Eldar: Is it harder for you to change? Sorry. When you want something, or you can argue that it, it expedites it. 

[01:10:01] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:10:01] Katherine: Or it might expedite it. 

[01:10:03] Eldar: Like, you know, one, you went on a goose chase, right?

[01:10:05] Katherine: Yeah. 

[01:10:05] Eldar: And then, and then, and then you bumped into Totally. And totally said, well, how do you feel about this? And you're kind of like, oh, I didn't even think about that. Yeah. And next thing you know, uh, you didn't sell it yet. You don't have a resolution. You have to rethink the whole strategy. 

[01:10:16] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[01:10:16] Eldar: Forces you to change, right?

[01:10:18] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[01:10:19] Eldar: Is this a different person that's now gonna interact with this thing, or is it gonna be the, the, it could be the person two years ago. Yeah, it could be. I mean, two hours ago. 

[01:10:25] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[01:10:26] Eldar: Right. Yeah. So you've changed, I guess the big thing is do you want to, right. Do you want to change? 

[01:10:32] Toliy: Yeah. Yes. See, I don't know if you can ever, 

[01:10:34] Katherine: well, it's an, it's, it's a choice on the, 

[01:10:36] Toliy: yeah.

[01:10:36] See, I feel, feel likes 

[01:10:37] Katherine: a choice. 

[01:10:38] Toliy: Yeah. I don't know if it's like an actual choice, you know? Because I feel like if, if it's an actual choice, you're gonna always choose. No, because I feel like it's like an easier, like, uh, in, in the moment it feels like an easier path. Like it's a more like a, 

[01:10:51] Eldar: I guess when that, when, when is that question being posed to you while you're suffering or while you're just chilling?

[01:10:56] Katherine: Exactly. 

[01:10:57] Toliy: Yes. See, I don't know if you ever, that makes a 

[01:10:58] Katherine: difference too. 

[01:10:59] Toliy: Yeah. I don't know if you ever like. '

[01:11:01] Eldar: cause the change, the change question comes when, when shit hits the fan. Right. When it's like you 

[01:11:07] Toliy: reflection. Yeah. So I think that like, 

[01:11:09] Eldar: yeah, 

[01:11:10] Toliy: the, uh, the dumber you are, or maybe like the poor, like the worst at life you are.

[01:11:15] That that's how it only happens. As you improve and as you get a bit over time, you're someone that can like beat change to, to change, you know, 

[01:11:23] Eldar: only, only if you are, if you're, I mean, you're getting better at what the society's rules. 

[01:11:28] Toliy: No. Only if you're, if you're only, if you're under, if you have a better understanding of how, like who you are and how you operate and how things in general work.

[01:11:36] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:11:37] Toliy: If you don't have a good grasp of that, then like change will always continues to try to, like, change is if, if you wanna say change or like society or like whatever, like the way that you are, it's almost trying to like continue to corner you up up until you have nowhere to go. Right? 

[01:11:54] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:11:55] Toliy: And it's because it's your, it's, it, it's, it's almost like it's your refusal to like look into things, right?

[01:12:03] Or to be challenged. Yeah. Or to like, like if you don't, yeah. If, if you have a strong desire to improve and to like develop, then you never have to, I guess, deal with this kind of thing. But oftentimes I think that like we could get laxed with how we, our, our desires on self improvement, all that. Do you have 

[01:12:22] Eldar: those types of moments where you're so like, oh yeah, I'm, I'm like so excited for change.

[01:12:26] I'm so excited for learning that you don't experience those things 

[01:12:31] Toliy: that, that say, say, say it again. 

[01:12:32] Eldar: You know how you said, like, when you like eager beaver Yeah. Wanna learn, want to 

[01:12:36] Katherine: change. It's fleeting. 

[01:12:37] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:12:37] Eldar: It's very fleeting. Yeah. 

[01:12:38] Katherine: It's fleeting. And just like any other emotion, like, you know, you could be really ecstatic about something and then it dies down, or, 

[01:12:45] Mike: well, 

[01:12:46] Katherine: that's, 

[01:12:46] Mike: but how would you, uh, uh, how would you get excited about change?

[01:12:50] Uh. From a, like when you're, if you're not in a bad place, like how would you get excited about change if you're in a good place? 

[01:13:00] Eldar: Yeah. Well how about you? You said, uh, I'm like, I'm excited about learning about myself. 

[01:13:05] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:13:06] Eldar: That's learning about yourself is change. 

[01:13:07] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:13:08] Eldar: Inherent. It, it's like it's baked into learning about yourself.

[01:13:10] Change. 

[01:13:11] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:13:11] Eldar: So you in the better place, right? You in a good place. Yeah. And now you're extracting that desire of like, yo, I wanna learn more. 

[01:13:17] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:13:17] Eldar: Yeah. There you go. That's an example. 

[01:13:18] Mike: That's an example. Yeah. 

[01:13:19] Eldar: You know, most of the time I think that this forcible change comes from, 

[01:13:24] Mike: but the thing is, I'm downfalls, but I'm only excited to learn about myself.

[01:13:27] But that's, that's where I'm, now 

[01:13:30] Eldar: you've 

[01:13:30] Mike: turned the leaf. But, but from forceful change to, but that was through suffering that I got to that place. 

[01:13:34] Eldar: Yes. 

[01:13:35] Mike: But I, that's because I understood how to turn it around 

[01:13:38] Eldar: thing. Well, you turned it 

[01:13:39] around 

[01:13:39] Mike: in 

[01:13:39] that 

[01:13:39] Eldar: thing. I don't think you understood. I think you turned it around.

[01:13:41] Mike: Yeah. I turned it around in that specific 

[01:13:43] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:13:43] Mike: Realm, whatever you wanna call it. 

[01:13:44] Eldar: Yeah. And now you want to do it because you finally changed the value system. Yeah. 

[01:13:50] Mike: And 

[01:13:50] Eldar: now you value that, 

[01:13:52] Toliy: but you have 

[01:13:52] Mike: to, but that's really maintenance term level, reinforce. It's like a long-term reinforcement. And, and it's like, do you have to go through the bad and then to come out on another side to then like, on that specific subject?

[01:14:08] Is it again subject to subject basis? 

[01:14:10] Eldar: I it is, but I think so. I think the, the 

[01:14:12] Mike: big, but then I guess as you get better, you, you get better at noticing the subjects Yes. That need improvement. Yeah. 

[01:14:17] Toliy: No, but see in, in that example, you're actually desiring a big, long-term thing, but you have a focus on a short term, day-to-day operation, which is good 

[01:14:29] thing.

[01:14:30] Toliy: Yes. 

[01:14:30] Mike: Well, yeah. 

[01:14:31] Toliy: Yes. But you're desiring the big, grandiose thing without actually desiring the big, grandiose thing. 

[01:14:36] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:14:36] Toliy: Because you're actually just talking about those moment to moment experiences. 

[01:14:40] Eldar: Yes. 

[01:14:40] Toliy: So you actually get. That big desire that you're talking about without desiring it, 

[01:14:45] Eldar: because you go into the moment focused 

[01:14:47] Toliy: and you understand the importance of that, 

[01:14:49] Eldar: of that moment.

[01:14:49] Toliy: Yes. 

[01:14:50] Eldar: Correct? 

[01:14:51] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[01:14:51] Eldar: Yeah, babe, so the question to you, do you go to therapy most of the time when shit hits the fan and shit is on fire still? 

[01:15:00] Katherine: No, not anymore. 

[01:15:01] Eldar: You turn to leaves as well? 

[01:15:03] Katherine: Well, yeah. Like I, I've, you know, that there's, I've made some changes mm-hmm. And there's been like growing and healing and stuff like that.

[01:15:11] Yeah. Um, so no, I'm not like, you know 

[01:15:15] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:15:15] Katherine: In a, in a bind every 

[01:15:17] Eldar: time I go, go. So you to learn, you go to learn more about yourself and like, wow, I'm in this discovery phase now. Like I can't wait to 

[01:15:22] Katherine: discover something else you Yeah. And sometimes I have like that genuine, and then sometimes it's just a regular day where I, I am not as mindful.

[01:15:30] Mm-hmm. Or just a, it's a normal, regular, you know, appointment. And then sometimes I'm like, wow, I, I am actually, uh. Looking forward to talking to her about this. Mm-hmm. I'd like to see what she has to say about that or, 

[01:15:41] Eldar: yeah. 

[01:15:41] Katherine: Or I'm feeling a certain type of way about something I'd like to, to to 

[01:15:44] Eldar: hear. Do you, do you see them as quests?

[01:15:45] Like, like, wow, I can't wait to go on this quest or this adventure to find 'em by 

[01:15:48] Katherine: myself Sometimes. You do. Sometimes. Yes. A lot of the times. Yeah. A lot of times. You know? Yeah. See, ultimately it's exciting. Like ultimately it's like, you know, she likes to, like, at the end of the year, kind of like really kind of recap, look, recap at the year.

[01:16:03] Recap. Recap, yeah. But then also, um, you know, talk about ship next year, stuff like that, which is, I never used to do that stuff. I, I would even like, uh, you know, like cringe, never understand. Like I would cringe at people, like with the new year, like the resolutions. And I would, I would cringe at all that I see.

[01:16:20] I, I see, I see it though. I, I get it now a little bit. 

[01:16:23] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:16:23] Katherine: And, um. A lot of times I feel like I'm like, oh, I have this new excitement for the new year. Like, okay, I, I'm excited for what's gonna come next year, you know? Mm-hmm. Might be some lessons, might be some blessings, I don't know, you know? But I have this new, um, I guess, uh, curiosity about things that I didn't have before.

[01:16:44] Mm-hmm. Because I think my mind was so closed and I was so negative, so I didn't have like this curiosity for things that 

[01:16:50] Eldar: Okay. 

[01:16:50] Katherine: I might have now. 

[01:16:51] Eldar: There you go. So you get the pass from Totally. Mike gets the pass and you get the pass too. 

[01:16:56] Katherine: What, which pass? 

[01:16:58] Eldar: This, you guys are doing it right? This is the kind of stuff you're supposed to be doing.

[01:17:01] Okay. 

[01:17:03] Katherine: But I really messed up today. 

[01:17:05] Eldar: Oh no. He'll, he'll, he remembers that one. 

[01:17:08] Katherine: No problem. 

[01:17:09] Eldar: He saw you, the chicken with no head. 

[01:17:10] Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, I have moments. Well, 

[01:17:13] Toliy: I, I definitely saw what was funny, like if you. Like if you observe Catherine during that like half an hour Yeah. Where she was taking pictures, going back and forth.

[01:17:22] Do you would think that this is like, 

[01:17:23] Eldar: yeah. Who is 

[01:17:24] Toliy: this the most, like 

[01:17:25] Eldar: an addict? 

[01:17:25] Toliy: Like No, no. Like the most like sharp, you know, like, go get her onto like, you know, like 

[01:17:30] Eldar: Yes. 

[01:17:30] Toliy: Yes. Like, there, there was nothing stopping her. 

[01:17:32] Eldar: There was nothing stopping. 

[01:17:33] Toliy: You know, 

[01:17:33] Eldar: that's black tea. 

[01:17:35] Katherine: Yeah, that's fine. 

[01:17:35] Toliy: Yeah. I'm cool.

[01:17:36] Yeah. Yeah. Like, it's funny, like if you only saw that, you know, you would definitely think that, you know, like she would have no problem doing whatever she wants. 

[01:17:43] Eldar: Yeah, that's 

[01:17:44] Toliy: true. You know, and I also know exactly how that is. Like when I, uh, 

[01:17:47] Katherine: well, when I, when when something is important to me, sit down first.

[01:17:49] Toliy: Yes. 

[01:17:50] Katherine: When I find something interesting. 

[01:17:51] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:17:51] Katherine: I could be like that. 

[01:17:53] Toliy: Yeah. Well, I, I, and then we're all, 

[01:17:56] Eldar: we do 

[01:17:56] Toliy: have that. Yeah. When I want something. I'm, I'm move 

[01:17:59] Eldar: the mountains. 

[01:17:59] Toliy: I I'll Yeah. Move mountains Yeah. To get it. But then I also let my leaves just like, you know, sit there for a whole year. 

[01:18:05] Katherine: Yeah. I 

[01:18:05] Toliy: guess that's 

[01:18:06] Katherine: just kind of how 

[01:18:06] Toliy: we work, 

[01:18:07] Katherine: right.

[01:18:07] You know? Yeah. 

[01:18:07] Toliy: Like, you don't have that kind of, uh, umph for raking your leaves. Right. 

[01:18:11] Katherine: No. 

[01:18:11] Toliy: You know, 

[01:18:12] Katherine: or washing my bathroom, you know? Yeah. I mean, cleaning my bathroom. 

[01:18:15] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. So it, so, so, so, so it's funny that like, yeah. Like, I think oftentimes 

[01:18:21] Eldar: you guys are cherry pickers, right? 

[01:18:22] Toliy: Well, 

[01:18:23] Katherine: yeah. You 

[01:18:24] Toliy: like, just, just the reality of it is that like, yeah, nobody has a DH ADHD 

[01:18:27] Katherine: for 

[01:18:28] Toliy: everything.

[01:18:28] Focus issues for what they really like. Thank 

[01:18:30] Eldar: you. 

[01:18:30] Katherine: And I get really bored very quickly when I don't like something. 

[01:18:34] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:18:34] Katherine: It's, it's very hard 

[01:18:35] Toliy: to give it any attention. Yeah. But the, the natural, the um, the natural suffering that you experience from it is basically like the, the, like the sin that you're basically doing, like against yourself, right?

[01:18:46] Is that like. You're continuously doing things you don't wanna do. 

[01:18:49] Eldar: Correct. 

[01:18:50] Toliy: So then you're bound to suffer from doing it. Correct. Like that, that's just like, 

[01:18:53] Eldar: the thing is, I mean, the Buddhist also say that, but that we extracted and said the same thing. That you want to go into every single moment in life and try to get exactly what you're looking for.

[01:19:04] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:19:04] Eldar: But that takes attention and focus. 

[01:19:06] Toliy: Yes. 

[01:19:07] Katherine: Oh, where is she? 

[01:19:08] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:19:08] Katherine: You wanna be like, penny Penny's doing what she wants at all times. 

[01:19:12] Toliy: Yeah. And that, that, that's also, and like the, the process of what I'm trying to do now is that I'm constantly like, I'm like, I constantly just return to the same place over and over again.

[01:19:22] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:19:22] Toliy: Same place. 

[01:19:23] Eldar: Well, it's good you have a good base. Is that a good base? 

[01:19:26] Toliy: Well, 

[01:19:26] Eldar: you hope so. I, 

[01:19:30] Toliy: I at least internally have, um, a feeling that like learning and doing it is possible. 

[01:19:36] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:19:37] Toliy: Um, only through like re repetition of like continuing to be more conscious and continuing to try to, um. Catch, catch myself contributing to, to things that break my focus.

[01:19:48] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:19:49] Toliy: You know? 

[01:19:49] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:19:50] Toliy: But yeah, I think that if we track back on like any of the things that were successful or that were happy, how they end up, we can track back that level of focus, you know? 

[01:19:59] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[01:19:59] Toliy: But, um, yeah, like if you were forced to go to your therapist, for example, let's just say it was like court work.

[01:20:05] Yeah. 

[01:20:05] Katherine: I probably wouldn't, wouldn't enjoy it, do 

[01:20:07] Toliy: a fuck. If you were forcing 

[01:20:08] Katherine: it, you might be on your I, because 

[01:20:09] Toliy: I like phone. You might be scrolling, you might be doing this and that, what would be 

[01:20:12] Eldar: the result, right? 

[01:20:13] Toliy: Yes. Yeah. 

[01:20:13] Katherine: You 

[01:20:13] Toliy: wouldn't get that same 

[01:20:14] Katherine: Yeah. Result from it. Yeah. It's, it's an option 

[01:20:16] Toliy: Yes. 

[01:20:16] Katherine: That I'm choosing 

[01:20:17] Toliy: a hundred 

[01:20:18] Katherine: percent.

[01:20:18] Eldar: Yeah, definitely. You know? Yeah. And I think that's a, that's a good point of, uh, to bring up is that the things that you volunteer yourself to do and you actually do it, and you see yourself through and you focus, most of them come out on a good, on a, in a good way, I think. Mm-hmm. Yes. The results are 

[01:20:32] Katherine: good.

[01:20:32] Yeah. I agree. Yeah. 

[01:20:33] Eldar: Yeah, yeah. You volunteer plus you like it, most likely you'll stick with it. You focus and you get the right results. 

[01:20:41] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. You're doing something on your own terms. 

[01:20:45] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:20:45] Toliy: Your own, like, your own vote. Like you're, you're not like being, um, subject to, to like a slavery form of like doing something.

[01:20:53] Yeah. Like you work here because you have to, or like you do this because you have no choice. 

[01:20:58] Katherine: That how any of things, that's how I felt about work before 

[01:21:00] Toliy: any of those things lead to guaranteed like paint over and over again. 

[01:21:04] Katherine: Yeah. 

[01:21:04] Toliy: Which they should, but then like Yeah. If you play video games, you could just, you know 

[01:21:09] Eldar: Yeah.

[01:21:09] Toliy: Wake up five hours later. 

[01:21:11] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:21:12] Toliy: What, can you do that with other things, for example? 

[01:21:14] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:21:14] Toliy: What else? You know, I don't know. Climbing a lot, right? 

[01:21:17] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:21:17] Toliy: Playing a bunch of basketball or something, or like, you know, gardening for you. 

[01:21:21] Eldar: No, but even those things you mentioned, uh, uh, I think in moderation. Yeah. 

[01:21:26] Toliy: Well, yeah.

[01:21:26] And, and, and that's a lesson that you learn, then learn, and then you, you only get Yeah. Why wiser like weight, 

[01:21:32] Eldar: and I'm happier with rock climbing than basketball. Now I'm telling you right now, I don't have the same desire anymore with basketball, which is crazy for me to say. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Which is a crazy thing.

[01:21:40] Yeah. Because I've shifted the proper way. I guess you have that too, micron. 

[01:21:45] Mike: Oh, I'm definitely not playing, so, 

[01:21:47] Eldar: no, I know, but like, do you still have that crazy desire to play basketball? Like I don't have that anymore. Like if I skip basketball, I don't care. 

[01:21:53] Katherine: You know what's interesting about the rock climbing university?

[01:21:55] But if I 

[01:21:55] Eldar: skip rock climbing, bro, I'm mad 

[01:21:56] Katherine: basketball. Mm-hmm. There's so many other factors in basketball. 

[01:22:00] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:22:00] Katherine: How your team plays together, the other teams. 

[01:22:03] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:22:03] Katherine: The desire to win. Right. Whereas here it's just you and, and the wall. And the wall. Yeah. So you're really, it's just you. You're just, 

[01:22:12] Eldar: yeah. 

[01:22:12] Katherine: I guess competing with yourself 

[01:22:13] Eldar: also on your own.

[01:22:14] It's true. That's true. That's 

[01:22:15] Katherine: controls. You know, there's so many, I mean, you guys would play and every single time you would come inside the 

[01:22:20] Eldar: car, this gonna go back and fuck shit up. 

[01:22:22] Katherine: No, of course. But you would come inside the car. 

[01:22:24] Eldar: You know what I'm saying? That's what 

[01:22:25] Katherine: I'm talking. Do you guys realize how much, how much you guys would complain and blame and point the finger?

[01:22:30] Yeah. Oh, those bomb. That I think this total was fat. That's 

[01:22:32] Eldar: different. 

[01:22:33] Katherine: No, but like you guys. You guys would just un just, you had so much, uh, 

[01:22:39] Eldar: yeah. So 

[01:22:39] Katherine: put it down a happiness this, this summer. It's 

[01:22:41] Eldar: over 

[01:22:41] Katherine: for 

[01:22:41] Eldar: people. Every time we 

[01:22:42] Toliy: somebody, it's over. For people, people, the white off courts, you just thinking that they're gonna like, you know, come with their friends and like, you know, it's gonna be 360 layup here and there.

[01:22:51] They have no idea what, what, what's gonna 

[01:22:52] Eldar: happen. So, Mike, you, you go after this. So we're going back 

[01:22:54] Katherine: to 

[01:22:54] Eldar: that Mike. Go, go straight to the chorus. Start warming up. 'cause I know it takes you time to get warmed up. 

[01:23:00] Katherine: So we're gonna go back 

[01:23:00] Toliy: to this. Go straight there, 

[01:23:03] Eldar: start warming up now, because in two weeks we're going there, you know?

[01:23:06] Yeah. It's 

[01:23:07] Katherine: silly. 

[01:23:08] Eldar: Yeah. So, 

[01:23:09] Toliy: yeah. 

[01:23:10] Eldar: Yeah. So, you know, and I feel good about that. I definitely feel good about the fact that, you know, rock climbing definitely has taken over because it's definitely, uh, it's on my time more and it's, I, I definitely, my body feels better. I feel stronger all across the board. 

[01:23:26] Katherine: You are not getting nearly as injured as before.

[01:23:28] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:23:28] Katherine: Like, no, nowhere near. 

[01:23:29] Eldar: Yeah. Knock on wood. 

[01:23:30] Katherine: Scrape here and there, but 

[01:23:31] Eldar: yeah, no, I'm, I'm ge I get injured, but these are not like real injuries. 

[01:23:34] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[01:23:34] Eldar: Thank God, you know? 

[01:23:36] Toliy: Well, yeah. 'cause also like in, in basketball you have variables of like, if someone's like a moron, 

[01:23:41] Katherine: people are 

[01:23:41] Toliy: injured under you and they can just, 

[01:23:43] Katherine: like, he's have 

[01:23:44] Toliy: so many things that like are out of your control.

[01:23:46] Katherine: Yeah. 

[01:23:46] Toliy: Mm-hmm. It's very hard to have control 

[01:23:48] Katherine: in a, there has a permanent, like his nose is. You know, I don't know how, how young were you when you got that injury? Someone 

[01:23:56] Eldar: elbowed me down. Yeah. 

[01:23:57] Katherine: Yeah. That's what I, you still see it? What 

[01:23:58] Eldar: happens? 

[01:23:59] Katherine: Yeah. And so I guess it's okay. Right. 

[01:24:01] Eldar: That's part of basketball.

[01:24:03] That's also like, if you step on the court, you kind of have to expect these things, so you can't like be a bitch. Yeah. 

[01:24:06] Katherine: You 

[01:24:07] Eldar: know? 

[01:24:08] Katherine: Oh, so this has to do with like manhood as well? 

[01:24:10] Eldar: A hundred percent. 

[01:24:11] Katherine: Oh, wow. 

[01:24:12] Eldar: You know, we go over there, we gotta fuck shit up. 

[01:24:14] Katherine: See, for me, like going there and getting injured is like, not like, you know, that's not something that I would appreciate.

[01:24:20] Eldar: Oh, yeah. We, we don't look forward to it either, 

[01:24:21] Katherine: but, so for you it's, you take like a, 

[01:24:23] Eldar: you take, you take it on the chin when you, 

[01:24:24] Katherine: what is it? A badge of honor or what do you call that? Yeah. 

[01:24:26] Eldar: Nah, I don't do honor. You can't properly 

[01:24:28] Toliy: go into battle without expecting to die. 

[01:24:30] Katherine: Oh, 

[01:24:31] Eldar: wow. Not willing to die. Willing to die.

[01:24:32] Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. I, I don't speak that language. 

[01:24:34] Eldar: Yeah, 

[01:24:35] Katherine: for sure. Okay. 

[01:24:36] Eldar: Yeah, I'm definitely not looking forward to rolling my ankle, but I'm more likely will the summer, you know what I mean? Like 

[01:24:40] Toliy: Yes. 

[01:24:41] Katherine: And then you, 

[01:24:42] Eldar: you know, so, okay. Hopefully not, but. All right. So I, I think we did pretty good with the change thing.

[01:24:50] Yeah. Did we say like, what, what advice do we have 

[01:24:53] Toliy: for people? Yeah. I, I, I just feel like the biggest thing is that like, there, like a lot of the, this, like promotion and stuff for like, change, it's so nonchalantly like, talked about. Mm-hmm. And like, it's just like, hey, just, hey, just do this and this. Mm-hmm.

[01:25:06] Katherine: You know, I think, 

[01:25:06] Toliy: you know, like, 

[01:25:07] Katherine: I agree, but I think that it's crazy. Most of the hardest things are actually what people are so nonchalant about. Relationships, marriage. Yeah. Having children, this is true change. Uh, yes. You know, self, uh, what is self-help or like mm-hmm. It's like such a huge, uh, just content creator right now.

[01:25:26] And, and I think it's probably what people talk about so freely, but the hardest things or the most serious things, I would say. 

[01:25:34] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. It's true. Everything's kind of backwards. 

[01:25:37] Katherine: Yeah. I think that's just the society that we live in. That's just where, where we're at. 

[01:25:41] Eldar: Well, that's why we're here. I think that's why we have the space that's We have now thousands of people listening to us.

[01:25:45] Thank you guys. Whoever's listening, leave some reviews on Spotify. You know, we would love to hear. Yeah. I feel Yeah. Feel we 

[01:25:49] Toliy: appreciate 

[01:25:50] Katherine: it. 

[01:25:50] Toliy: You, you have to, um, make things like harmoniously work. Mm-hmm. And you have to, I think if, if you want that, you have to realize that like, it's like we're, we're, we're like in like a way, like, um, rub Rubik's cubes, right?

[01:26:04] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:26:04] Toliy: Where like you could get the whole red side, but then you just messed up like the blue side side or the yellow side. You know, this is 

[01:26:10] Eldar: a very good way to put it. 

[01:26:10] Toliy: We all rub cube. Yeah. To, you have to get like all of them Correct. For it to work properly. But I think the more desires you have, the hard, the more sides you start developing.

[01:26:19] Eldar: Oh, this is a good 

[01:26:19] Toliy: point. You know, and 

[01:26:20] Eldar: hence a DH adhd. 

[01:26:21] Toliy: Yeah. Before you know it, you had four sides. Yeah. Now you have more desires. Now you have six and you have eight. Now 

[01:26:26] Eldar: if 

[01:26:26] Toliy: you have a shit ton of, um, desires, you over can over the 20 sides. 

[01:26:30] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:26:30] Toliy: And now like, yeah. You have to be like an enlightened like wizard to like make all this work, you know?

[01:26:35] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. Juggle all those things. 

[01:26:37] Toliy: Yeah. And, and it becomes harder and harder. Harder. 

[01:26:41] Eldar: So what do you recommend for people if they're just starting up, if they didn't listen to all 200 episodes that we have, that we concluded these things? What are some simple things that you're There's no simple things.

[01:26:53] Every time I ask you this, you never give anything good. Mm-hmm. 

[01:26:55] Toliy: I mean, um, 

[01:26:56] Katherine: well, we just concluded that it's nice. I 

[01:26:58] Eldar: think totally just always says give 

[01:26:58] Katherine: fucked. Not, not simple. 

[01:27:01] No. 

[01:27:01] Eldar: You know, 

[01:27:01] Toliy: just like, I, I I, I think a big thing is again, like

[01:27:07] you're

[01:27:12] be okay I think with, like, getting challenged and, but, but yeah. I, I mean, anything is going to be hard at first, 

[01:27:21] you 

[01:27:21] Katherine: know, when you have 

[01:27:21] Toliy: a horse in 

[01:27:22] Katherine: the race, 

[01:27:22] Toliy: but like, yeah. I feel like oftentimes if you can at least put yourself in a position where you're okay with getting challenged 

[01:27:28] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:27:28] Toliy: Then you at least have more time and you have split seconds of life.

[01:27:32] Eldar: What does it look like? Is it, how do you position yourself to be an okay with being challenged? What do you do? 

[01:27:39] Toliy: You have to like, 

[01:27:40] Eldar: like what, what under which gun do you have to stand? 

[01:27:44] Toliy: I dunno if it's like a gun to stand. I think that you, you just have to 

[01:27:48] Eldar: and from who, 

[01:27:49] Toliy: yeah. You probably just have to have a better relationship with failure or with being wrong potentially.

[01:27:55] Eldar: Oh, we talked about that too. 

[01:27:56] Toliy: You know, because if, if, if you have a, like 

[01:27:59] Eldar: yeah. 

[01:28:02] Toliy: If you feel like you could have gone, gotten something wrong, 

[01:28:05] Eldar: yeah. 

[01:28:05] Toliy: You will definitely take being challenged potentially. 

[01:28:08] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:28:09] Toliy: Or investigate what, what you're thinking about or talking about more. 

[01:28:13] Eldar: Mm-hmm. And 

[01:28:13] Toliy: you'll be more naturally open-minded about it.

[01:28:16] But if you have a hard time with being wrong, then you will run as far away from the opportunity to be wrong. To be 

[01:28:22] Eldar: challenged. 

[01:28:23] Yeah. 

[01:28:23] Toliy: So then you'll never be challenged. Yeah. Because you'll only surround yourself around people that won't challenge you, or you won't put yourself in a position where you could be like, you know.

[01:28:33] Exposed for being wrong, for example. Mm-hmm. You'll, you'll always be the person that got everything right. 

[01:28:38] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:28:38] Toliy: You know, 

[01:28:39] Eldar: that's a good point. 

[01:28:40] Toliy: That that's also like, 

[01:28:42] Eldar: there's no fucking easy answer here. 

[01:28:43] Toliy: Yeah. When, when you hear a lot of, like, like E Eve, even this guy I was on the phone with like yesterday, you know, like

[01:28:55] a lot of what he said was wrong. 

[01:28:56] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:28:57] Toliy: You know, but he always prefaced it. It was like, Hey, I've been doing this for 30 years in sales. Mm-hmm. You know, but he's using the leverage of like, Hey, because I've been doing something longer than you. 

[01:29:07] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:29:07] Toliy: Therefore, I'm correct. 

[01:29:08] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:29:09] Toliy: So for him it's like, yeah. I mean, like he's, he said he was 63, I think.

[01:29:14] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:29:14] Toliy: Like, I don't know. He's gonna speak to many people that are older than him and that are more experienced than him where he can't use that line. 

[01:29:21] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:29:21] Toliy: My guess is that he surrounds himself by speaking to a lot of people who are less just years wise experience. 

[01:29:26] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:29:26] Toliy: In, in him. 

[01:29:28] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:29:29] Toliy: And. Like what, what, what he's saying though makes no sense.

[01:29:33] Mm-hmm. And you could just tell from a mile away, like, if you listen to the whole conversation 

[01:29:37] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[01:29:37] Toliy: That this person's full of shit. 

[01:29:39] Eldar: Mm. 

[01:29:39] Toliy: It's clear as day. 

[01:29:42] Eldar: So what'd you suggest to him? 

[01:29:44] Toliy: Well, no, it's over for him. He, he, he's too old. 

[01:29:46] Eldar: He has to try next life. 

[01:29:47] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:29:48] Eldar: Okay. 

[01:29:48] Toliy: Yeah. He, yeah. He probably has to, um, resurrect as like a cactus, you know?

[01:29:53] Eldar: You get to relax and focus. 

[01:29:55] Toliy: Well just, yeah, just like warm weather and desert. Not much interaction. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just relax. He talks too much and he doesn't do so well. You have to 

[01:30:01] Eldar: take, take, take everything in slowly. 

[01:30:03] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. Like water every, like two months or so, you know. 

[01:30:08] Eldar: Yeah. A bird passing bird once more.

[01:30:10] Yeah. Okay. Fair. Mike, what do you got? You got any final thoughts for us? You on deep, desirable thought? 

[01:30:20] Mike: No, I don't really know. No, I don't have anything. I don't have anything. 

[01:30:26] Eldar: What do you recommend for people? They're looking to get on the same journey that you are on. Mm. That's desirable journey of change.

[01:30:35] Yeah. 

[01:30:36] Mike: I have the recommendation for sure. Yeah. 

[01:30:37] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:30:39] Mike: Whatever you're doing. 

[01:30:39] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:30:40] Mike: Do as much of it as possible. Yeah. So that you can, uh, like, like, uh, Jim Carrey said, everybody should get rich as fast as possible. 

[01:30:51] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:30:51] Mike: So they could realize what's actually what it is. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think you should, if you're doing something and you're suffering, you should do more of it so you can suffer more faster.

[01:31:01] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:31:01] Mike: If you like whatever, whatever it is that you on the fence about, don't be on the fence. Just go full, full, full head on. Full tilt on the, on that. Yeah. 

[01:31:10] Eldar: Yeah, yeah. You're right. 

[01:31:11] Mike: Yeah. No, no. Like philosoph philosophical advice that I can give is gonna make sense or is gonna be heard, I think, because 

[01:31:22] Katherine: mm-hmm.

[01:31:24] Mike: You gotta come to it on your own. You finally gotta see yourself. Yeah. Or like, uh, what you're, what you're experiencing and why you're experiencing it, and take accountability. Then you could do things. But you gotta meet that, that, that the, you gotta meet whatever you have to meet for you to bounce. And the faster you get there, the faster you can go the other way.

[01:31:43] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:31:44] Mike: So 

[01:31:45] Eldar: sounds like everything is exactly where it's supposed to be, as you always say. Yeah. 

[01:31:49] Toliy: Yeah, 

[01:31:50] Eldar: baby. What you got for us? 

[01:31:52] Katherine: Mm. I mean, I agree with the guys. Um, I would just say like, pay attention, be mindful. 

[01:32:00] Eldar: Damn generic shit all across the board. What else 

[01:32:02] Katherine: am I gonna say? 

[01:32:03] Eldar: No, I agree with all, all of like, the guys have Yeah, everybody said generic shit, but I agree with all of it.

[01:32:07] Why would I always 

[01:32:07] Katherine: like, repeat 

[01:32:07] Eldar: whatever, say it applies, but it will not apply. 

[01:32:09] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:32:10] Eldar: It's a crazy thing. 

[01:32:11] Toliy: Yeah. The uh, generic things are correct things. Yeah. But when you know how difficult they are to actually do Yes. Then they're like, yo, 

[01:32:17] Eldar: I 

[01:32:17] Toliy: think 

[01:32:17] Mike: the suffering the more, like, more like not more like my thing about the more suffering, I think it's the easiest one because you are already still inclined to wanna do it, but 

[01:32:27] Eldar: nobody understands what you even mean by that, Mike.

[01:32:29] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:32:30] Eldar: You know what I'm saying? I know what you mean by that. 

[01:32:31] Mike: Yeah, 

[01:32:32] Eldar: I understand. 

[01:32:33] Mike: Just do more of this more so 

[01:32:35] Toliy: maybe they don't understand, but I don't think they have my generic sense. 

[01:32:37] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:32:38] Toliy: You know? 'cause they're, they're gonna 

[01:32:38] do 

[01:32:39] Mike: it anyway. Is do anyway. They're looking like, I think a lot of people, I think a lot of people, and I think a lot of the suffering comes from being on the fence.

[01:32:47] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:32:47] Mike: Of like, Hey, like should I be doing this? Should I not be doing this? This all like, there's first, like there's a stress of doing something that's bad for you. Right. That's one stressor. Yeah. Then there's a stressor of being undecided of like, should I do this? Should not do this. 

[01:33:00] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:33:00] Mike: So I think you should just go with the one and just go full, full in, 

[01:33:03] Eldar: full in.

[01:33:04] Mike: Because I don't know, like I think that's the fastest way to get there. Mm-hmm. Probably the only way to get there. 

[01:33:09] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:33:09] Mike: You know, but, and then you don't have to suffer on the indecisiveness. 

[01:33:12] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:33:12] Mike: Like if you want to go do drugs, I don't know, like, I don't know. Whatever your advice is or 

[01:33:16] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:33:17] Mike: Be like, be a piece of shit person.

[01:33:18] Just like a general 

[01:33:19] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:33:19] Mike: Blanket. Be a bad person to yourself, to others. Yeah. Do as much of it as possible. 

[01:33:23] Eldar: Yeah. See what that ends you. 

[01:33:25] Mike: Yeah. Like, 

[01:33:26] Eldar: and you'll learn, 

[01:33:27] Mike: don't be undecided about it. Yeah. I don't know. 

[01:33:30] Eldar: Hmm. 

[01:33:30] Mike: Because I think people are looking for sometimes looking for answers and like Yeah. To tell 'em like, Hey, which direction should I go?

[01:33:35] I feel like a lot of times 

[01:33:36] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[01:33:37] Mike: People are like, I don't know what I should do. But then they come for advice and the advice doesn't really give 'em what they want to hear. 

[01:33:43] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:33:43] Mike: Like I think most people, when they come for advice, they kind of, uh, already know what they want. And I mean, I'm speaking from my own experience many times it came to you.

[01:33:53] I'm like, you know, I want you to tell me not to do the stupid thing. 

[01:33:57] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:33:57] Mike: But ultimately I want you to tell me that it's okay to do the stupid thing. 

[01:34:01] Eldar: Yeah. So I was always playing that, the right part when it comes to that. I think. Yeah. I think you did a good job doing that. 

[01:34:06] Mike: Yeah, definitely. 

[01:34:07] Eldar: Yeah. Okay. Be mindful, babe.

[01:34:11] Be in the moment. Expand on that a little bit for the people, for the naked ears. 

[01:34:20] Katherine: Well, why I, I think that there, there takes a certain amount of, you know, like, let's say falling down or, or, or bumping against the wall. And then enough reflection that comes after it. Hopefully. Yeah. You know, if it's causing you pain or whatever.

[01:34:35] Suffering then comes reflection and through that reflection, you know, hopefully we can learn that like. Maybe, maybe if our actions change or maybe if our values change or if we change something, then maybe we could have, um, um hmm. I don't wanna say change. We can have change. I don't know. Like we can, we can improve for the better.

[01:35:01] I mean, obviously it's for the better means to suffer less, you know? So I don't know if this is making sense, but I think that, um, you have to, you have to pay attention. You have to pay attention to your thoughts, to your actions, to how you feel after, uh, I don't know, a conversation or an interaction or, you know, whatever it is.

[01:35:22] Uh, I, I think you just have to 

[01:35:25] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:35:26] Katherine: Have some awareness. 

[01:35:28] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:35:28] Katherine: You know, to, does that make sense? 

[01:35:31] Eldar: It's, it's nice. Uh, does it make sense? I'm not sure how like. How that call to action is gonna be any beneficial to the person that's listening. I don't know. 

[01:35:41] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[01:35:42] Eldar: Right. It's like, uh, it's my final thoughts.

[01:35:45] It's like, without really, you know, I guess honing in and diving in and really thinking things through and really taking your time to do it, it's gonna be very hard to understand what the hell would, what the hell was just being 

[01:35:57] said. 

[01:35:57] Katherine: Well, look, if the listeners have made it this far, and to have listened to everything that was discussed here.

[01:36:02] Yeah. 

[01:36:02] Toliy: Yeah. That's like, 

[01:36:03] Katherine: then hopefully, well, hopefully at least like, you know, what we're saying in these final thoughts, like they've already 

[01:36:11] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:36:11] Katherine: Like this is kind of a, uh, a summary of, of what we feel, what we believe. Yeah. But, you know, hopefully they understood something, you know. 

[01:36:20] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:36:21] Katherine: Took away something.

[01:36:22] Eldar: I definitely agree with everything that has been said here. You know, uh, you have to pay attention, suffer more, would you say? Totally. Oh. Do as much possible. Fail, 

[01:36:32] Katherine: pay attention when you suffer, 

[01:36:34] Eldar: I guess. Yeah. 

[01:36:35] Katherine: Is the 

[01:36:35] Eldar: right pay as as much as possible? A hundred percent. Like, you know, the more failure you have.

[01:36:39] Yeah. Failing more accustomed to it is 

[01:36:40] Katherine: a form of suffering. Yes. For, for some, you know? 

[01:36:43] Eldar: Uh, but yeah. But ultimately, yeah, just try to think more. 

[01:36:46] Toliy: Yeah. But actionable steps, I feel like for people are always hard because like when, like, ev, every time you say that, you also realize that no one actually listens to what anyone says anyway.

[01:36:56] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:36:56] Toliy: So it's like you actually need to just like suffer more until like you actually ask for actionable steps. 

[01:37:02] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:37:02] Toliy: And then like, once you actually make that request and you ask for those Yeah. Then there's now a base built where like, 

[01:37:08] Eldar: yeah. 

[01:37:09] Toliy: You can always return there, you know? Um, this is true.

[01:37:12] Yeah. But when you're like telling somebody else actionable steps of what to do, who's just kind of like suffering. 

[01:37:17] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:37:18] Toliy: Who's gonna actually like 

[01:37:19] Katherine: Yeah. 

[01:37:20] Toliy: Be ready to listen and give like their undivided attention and like 

[01:37:23] Katherine: themselves, they have to be ready for themselves. 

[01:37:24] Eldar: So let's erase everything we just said.

[01:37:26] Katherine: Yeah. 

[01:37:27] Eldar: And just say one thing. Continue to listen to Dennis Rock's podcast, subscribe. 

[01:37:31] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[01:37:32] Eldar: And that's it. And maybe one day 

[01:37:34] Katherine: hit rock bottom, I guess, right? 

[01:37:36] Eldar: Yeah, that's part of it too. 

[01:37:37] Katherine: Hit rock 

[01:37:37] Eldar: bottom. We talked about that. Yeah. You know, hopefully if something resonates, great. That's what 

[01:37:42] Katherine: it took, you know?

[01:37:43] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:37:43] Katherine: For me, I guess to, to say Okay. Like something's not working. 

[01:37:46] Eldar: Yeah. So yeah, hopefully, you know, some stuff resonates, some stuff starts to sprout and we go on this journey together to be better people. That's it. Thank you guys. This was great. Thank you.