210. Shame

Have you ever wondered why shame feels so paralyzing — like an invisible force that turns your inner voice into a relentless critic, triggers self-sabotage, and blocks real accountability in your relationships?

In this powerful, no-holds-barred conversation, we dive deep with David Cooley, co-author (with Jessica Fern) of the book Transforming the Shame Triangle: From Shame to Love Using Parts Work. David reveals how shame isn’t just a simple emotion — it’s a complex internal dynamic: an internalized drama triangle made of three colluding parts that keep you stuck in cycles of criticism, capitulation, and escape.

We unpack the shame triangle in raw detail: the inner critic (the persecutor that attacks), the shame part (the victim that absorbs and agrees “I am the problem”), and the escaper parts (the rescuer strategies — numbing, overworking, perfectionism, or dissociation — that help you avoid the pain). Rooted in Internal Family Systems (IFS) parts work, this episode shows exactly how these parts form, why they developed from childhood attachment wounds and belonging needs, and — most importantly — how to transform them.

You’ll hear honest group discussion on:

• How shame actually blocks accountability (not fuels it)
• The difference between healthy guilt/regret and toxic shame
• Why “thick skin” might be masking vulnerability instead of building real resilience
• The revolutionary concept of Self energy — your calm, compassionate core that can befriend these parts instead of fighting them
• Practical shifts from inner critics to inner coaches, and from adversarial mindsets to growth-oriented ones

Most Insightful Moment: David Cooley drops this truth bomb:

“What if we could live in an internal reality where it’s actually friendly, supportive, where you have inner coaches versus inner critics, and you’re not spending this energy wrestling with adversarial voices?”

It reframes everything.

But the real cliffhanger hits when David challenges one of the co-host's core beliefs about “thick skin” and resilience… and reveals why most people never fully escape the shame triangle even after years of personal development work. The moment he explains how to actually integrate this instead of just intellectually understanding it will leave you questioning your own inner dialogue long after the episode ends.

If you’ve ever felt like your self-criticism is “motivating” you while secretly draining your life, or if you want to move from shame spirals to self-compassion and authentic connection, this episode is essential listening.

Ready to transform your relationship with shame? Subscribe now, drop a review, and share this with someone still battling their inner critic.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Dennis: On this week's episode 

[00:00:01] David Cooley: Shame, instead of being something simple, is actually a constellation of several parts working in tandem. The shame triangle is essentially an internalized version of the drama triangle. 

[00:00:12] Eldar: This is a pretty serious dynamic that's going on behind the scenes. Well, how do we come about to be, you know, shameful?

[00:00:19] It seems like, not shameful of others, but shameful of ourselves, right? The internal self. What 

[00:00:24] David Cooley: if we could live in an internal reality where it's actually friendly, supportive, where you have inner coaches versus inner critics, and you're not spending this energy wrestling with adversarial voices?

[00:00:44] Eldar: All right, guys. Um, we have a, a new topic today. Uh, I don't think we ever done this topic, actually, right? And, and, uh, for this topic, we're actually gonna have a guest. His name is David Cooley, and he's an author of Transforming the Shame Triangle: From the Shame to Love Using Parts Work. And maybe David can, uh, expand a little bit on that, on his work on this topic.

[00:01:06] Why is this topic so relevant? Um, how'd you find us, right, a little bit, and, uh, why is this conversation important or relevant? 

[00:01:15] David Cooley: Yeah. Thanks for having me. It's good to be here. You know, my co-author partner, Jessica Fern, and I wrote this book because we're both in the field of conflict resolution, working in therapeutic context, working with clients who come to us with a lot of relational issues.

[00:01:32] And what we were starting to see is that there are a lot of deep-rooted patterns that ultimately were rooted in shame. And so what we were finding as we were digging into shame, seeing this as a root cause of a lot of different things that on the surface seem like different causes, we were starting to notice that shame is a really complex thing to work through.

[00:01:53] It's not just a simple emotion. And so within, grounded in the system of internal family systems, right? So that's parts work, and I can talk more about that, uh, and get more granular later. But it's really the theory that in essence, we all have different parts of us that get activated in response to different situations, different circumstances, different relationships, you know.

[00:02:17] And so what we found is that shame, instead of being something simple, is actually a constellation of several parts working in tandem. And the triangle, the shame triangle, is essentially an internalized version of the drama triangle, which is a really popular and effective model for dealing with interpersonal conflict.

[00:02:37] So on the drama triangle, what you find is you've got the persecutor is one role, the victim is another, and then the rescuer, right? And so people find themselves falling into these roles unconsciously, mainly, and then getting stuck in this pattern where they're looping between these roles. What we've seen is that- For individuals who are dealing with some kind of shame, there's usually a pattern between these three inner parts.

[00:03:06] And so if we take the drama triangle, internalize it, if you've got the perpetrator, that's the inner critic, right? That's the voice that's constantly telling you how you're fucking up or not doing a good job, or you're doing something wrong or living in a way that's should be different. Then you have a shame part that hears that, responds to it, that basically takes that message on and says, "You're right."

[00:03:27] The inner critic, if the inner critic speaks in the second person, you, you, you, shame is the first person that capitulates to that declaration of the inner critic saying, "You're right. I am a problem. I do always mess this up." And then finally, where on the drama triangle you have the rescuer, in the inner dynamic for the shame triangle, you actually have what we call the escaper parts, right?

[00:03:52] Because the pain, the emotional pain that h- is emergent through the relationship between the inner critic and shame is so overwhelming, so uncomfortable, we develop these strategies for not feeling that. And so the escapers sweep in and help us to not have to really address or deal with kind of the deep underlying relationship or that tension between the inner critic and shame.

[00:04:17] So let me stop there and see if there's any questions or any reflections up to this point, 'cause that's a, that's a lot to say at once. 

[00:04:24] Eldar: Yeah, for sure. It seems like this, um, this is a pretty serious dynamic that's going on behind the scenes, right? Mm-hmm. And you kinda dive into each and every single step of the way of how everything transpires, right?

[00:04:37] But can we start with maybe like a, a layman terms definition of shame, right? And how do, how do we come about to be, you know, shameful? It seems like, not shameful of others, but shameful of ourselves, right? The internal self, right? 

[00:04:50] David Cooley: Yeah. It, yeah, it's basically the internalized message that something about you or your entire existence is a problem, problematic, right?

[00:04:59] It's not good enough. It's wrong. You know, the concept of sin. You know, any way in which you feel that your existence or your selfhood, your identity, or your way of being, your fundamental way of being in the world has something wrong with it fundamentally. 

[00:05:17] Eldar: Now, to follow up with that, w- how does that come about?

[00:05:20] Like, how does that start in someone's life? 

[00:05:24] David Cooley: Well, it can start a lot of different ways, but typically what we see is there's usually some kind of relationship to an outer critic, right? A lot of people talk about the shame they receive from parents, right? And so the messaging that we get from parents is that often there's something wrong with us or, again, our way of being.

[00:05:43] So a lot of clients come to us and say, "The relationship I had with my parents was really painful," right? "And this facet of myself was never accepted." And so in order to stay belonging in the family there had to be some kind of muting or dampening of our authentic way of being, our authentic experience.

[00:06:03] Right? Belonging is such a profound and important aspect of human existence. We are, I would assert, fundamentally relational creatures, right? We exist because of relationships, right? And attachment is a feature of that. So we're, we're programmed by nature, I think, to create strong emotional bonds with certain people, especially our caregivers.

[00:06:27] If those people are telling us there's something wrong with us, and we have to change our way of being to stay in a relationship of belonging, right, that creates a schism within ourselves, right? That we start to create this tension with our own way of being, right? Okay. Things that feel true or important- 

[00:06:43] Eldar: Yeah

[00:06:44] David Cooley: are no longer accessible. 

[00:06:46] Eldar: Absolutely. What about, It sounds like the, the premise is incorrect, right? Like if you're a child and your parents got it wrong, and then they're criticizing you in one way or the other to, to be better, let's just say. But you're really, you know, trying your best, right? So you become shameful of yourself.

[00:07:00] What if they got it right? What if you are incorrect about something and they give you maybe, uh, criticism, right? Where it can help you change your life for the better and you can, you know, ascend from that dynamic, right? How does that play? H- how do you distinguish the two? 

[00:07:17] David Cooley: Well, it's really, for me, it's the messaging.

[00:07:20] Like how do you communicate to somebody that something's important or valuable or safe or dangerous, right? There's a lot of ways to talk about what's important without shaming somebody, right? And so one of the things that I see is that that form of communication isn't accessible to a lot of people.

[00:07:41] And so we're also talking about different value systems, right? So let's say you have a sexual orientation that runs counter to your family's belief system. Are you fundamentally or existentially wrong because you have a different sexual orientation to the norm of your family or your community, right?

[00:07:58] So in that sense, it's not wrong, but it's different. So how do you communicate the difference in values without making somebody bad or pathologize their humanness? 

[00:08:10] Eldar: But in order to transfer shame from one person to another, right, or at least make somebody feel shameful, you to some degree have to esteem them, uh, before you can, uh, tune in into their rhetoric about you, right?

[00:08:23] Like you can't just... For example, if you don't believe them, right? If they're saying some stuff about you, but you really don't believe them, you don't esteem them, then that shame can never be kind of, uh, birthed, right? 

[00:08:36] David Cooley: Well, there has to be some belief or some part of you that thinks that the declaration of your problemness is true based on something.

[00:08:46] You know, for a lot of people when it comes to-- Like again, if we stay in the realm of children and the relationship to parents, again, that need to belonging, that need for belonging is really that's, that's programmed by nature. Like literally for human beings, for thousands of years, our evolution depended, our survival depended on us belonging to the group, to the tribe, to the family, to the community.

[00:09:11] And so being extricated from that would mean a literal threat to your survival. So the attachment systems really determine a lot of the importance that we put on other people's opinions of us, even though the judgments could be abstract or theoretical or conceptual for our nervous system, the threat of not belonging or not being accepted by the people with whom we have strong attachment to is really scary in a very real way- Hmm

[00:09:39] biological way. 

[00:09:41] Mike: I see. Does like, uh-- To me, what it made me think of is that it's something that like, uh, gets developed from probably a situation where the communication, the like the communication lines were poor, right? So like for example, like, um, a kid comes to their parents and, you know, says something, something that's bothering them.

[00:10:03] So either the parent doesn't pick up on how the severity of it is or disregards it for like whatever reason, or gives the wrong like, uh, response, not taking into account what, um, what the child is going through. And then as that kind of progresses, the kid is like, I mean, he, he's gonna learn like, "Hey, I didn't get the support here," or, "I didn't get an explanation," or like, uh, a thorough kind of like breakdown of what's happening.

[00:10:31] And then they became sha- they become shameful or, and they, you know, then they don't wanna share, and they kinda like internalize it and process it in a way which is could be illogical. Yeah, that's, that's what it kinda made me think of like, uh, and then shame develops. So I think that's, uh, like there's something that causes the shame.

[00:10:51] Eldar: Yeah, but you see like if you, if you start with the premise of that, you know, you wanna belong, right? Like David is saying that you're part of this little tribe. 

[00:11:00] Your parents, let's just say, your siblings- Mm-hmm ... or whatever, right? You're almost starting on the back foot already. Yeah. Right? Where like your desire is to fit in, right?

[00:11:08] Yeah, but- If your desire is to fit in, but you don't fit in, right? Let's just say your- Mm-hmm ... sexual orientation is different than what- Yeah ... your parents are perceiving in their minds. 

[00:11:17] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:11:17] Eldar: There's gonna be automatic static. 

[00:11:18] Mike: But like that, like even the, the thing of the sexual orientation, that's like, that's already maybe when you become thirteen, fourteen.

[00:11:24] I'm talking about when you're like a very young age- 

[00:11:26] ... 

[00:11:26] Mike: And your parents, like when you're two years old and your parents say, "No, you can't do this." And But without actually explaining why you can't do this. 

[00:11:33] So you start to draw certain conclusions, certain, like, resentments, whatever, disconnects.

[00:11:38] But I, I, I mean, I do think we are, like, social creatures, that's for sure. We definitely need that. But there's, like, what you, what you're saying is, like, there's, like, a line where it's a dependency versus, like, um, in the, like, being dependent on it and not being dependent on it, where it's like a- I'm just confused 

[00:11:58] Eldar: where the sh- Approval

[00:11:58] I'm, I'm confused where shame actually comes about. Like, where, at what point do you actually begin to feel shameful of yourself that you're, like, not good enough? 

[00:12:06] Toliy: I feel like it's almost, like, to me at least, it sounds like it's almost like a, um, in like a strange way, like, you, you almost accidentally created these kinds of feelings, I think, through, like, some form of...

[00:12:20] it has to be through some form of either, like, arrogance or being under, like, the wrong impression, right? Because it's like, if you feel... for example, like, to me, if you have a feeling of shame, it means that, um, like, if we track everything back, there's probably something that doesn't make sense that you feel does make sense, which is why you feel shameful to begin with.

[00:12:40] For example, if there's something, I don't know, let's just say there's something you did in the past, right? And, like, you still feel bad about it now, right? Well, like, you probably have some level of arrogance that you felt that you knew better when you actually, the reality is that you didn't know better, which is why you did that to begin with.

[00:12:56] But you almost can't forgive yourself, or you can't, like, understand that, right? Like- So it's a 

[00:13:00] Eldar: form of punishment. Well- Like self-punishment. 

[00:13:02] Toliy: Yes. Right? Because it's like, you can't be upset at, like, if you get a new puppy, and your puppy pees in the kitchen, and it's not trained, and you know it's not trained, can if you're a smart individual, can you really be upset at it?

[00:13:13] No. But it almost feels like when you feel shame, to, to me at least, it's almost like you feel like you were a trained puppy, but you still peed- Did 

[00:13:22] Eldar: something wrong ... 

[00:13:22] Toliy: in the kitchen, right? Mm-hmm. And you kinda feel that you knew better. But I think the reality for most people is that they actually didn't know better, but they still feel, like, that level of shame.

[00:13:32] Eldar: But, but would you... David, can you help us with this? Would you say that that Toliy's example of that type of shame is actually justified shame, where it's like if you kinda knew better not to pee on that floor, but you did it anyway- 

[00:13:42] Toliy: No, you didn't, though. 

[00:13:44] Eldar: Oh. 

[00:13:44] Toliy: You no, in my example, you think you did.

[00:13:47] That, that, that's where the arrogance, and that and that's where the, the shameful and upsetting feelings come, come from, where you think right now that back then you knew better, and therefore you're upset. But you can't just forgive yourself and say, like, "Hey, I was an idiot." 

[00:14:02] Eldar: Mm-hmm. "

[00:14:03] Toliy: I didn't know any better."

[00:14:04] Yeah. "And these were the outputs that happened." Let's mo- let's move on. And, and that's a logical output, right? Yeah. If you didn't know any better, and you didn't do well- Wow, 

[00:14:10] Eldar: okay ... 

[00:14:10] Toliy: that makes sense. But you can't accept that, which is why you feel the shame to begin with. But if you were able to forgive yourself- 

[00:14:18] Eldar: You 

[00:14:18] Toliy: can move on You want, yes.

[00:14:19] You wa- you wanna feel that 

[00:14:20] David Cooley: Well, let's, let's take a step back. You know, I think there was a salient point that came up earlier talking about younger people's experiences, like younger kids' experiences. Like thinking about a child who's upset about something, like a, let's say a male child is upset, they're hurt, and they go to their father, and the father is saying, "You shouldn't be upset.

[00:14:44] You shouldn't be sad. You shouldn't cry." For a child to be upset because they've been hurt, most of us would say that's a normal response. That's a human response to feeling hurt, especially for a child. But the way that some men are socialized that feeling, which is perfectly human for the nervous system to express in response to pain it's now a problem, right?

[00:15:07] My father is telling me that I shouldn't be feeling what I am feeling. That starts to get internalized in a really deep way, right? And if the, if it's internalized and mixed with the kid's sense of identity, boys don't cry, there's this whole range of human experience, now emotional experience, that can't be experienced without having some kind of rupture with their sense of self.

[00:15:31] Toliy: Mm. 

[00:15:32] David Cooley: Does that make sense? 

[00:15:33] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's like, uh, the child ran into a problem that they couldn't, like, uh, solve on their own, and they came to a parent to help them to, like, navigate it. But instead, the parent said, like, uh, "Toughen up," like, uh, "Fuck off." 

[00:15:47] Eldar: Yeah, 

[00:15:47] Mike: which is- Possibly ... which, 

[00:15:48] Eldar: which is also, which is also to some degree a a natural normal phenomena because if the parent doesn't know any better- 

[00:15:53] Mike: Yeah

[00:15:53] Eldar: this is the way they communicate, right? Absolutely. They're like, "Oh, I don't know how to deal with this shit." You know what I mean? Yeah. Just like, "Man up and keep going." 

[00:15:58] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:15:59] Eldar: You know, like we did this and now when we were, let's just say, you know, younger, just man up. 

[00:16:03] Mike: Yeah. Just man up. Yeah. You know? But, but it's like, um, it's okay to say man up, but then if the, if like, if the manning up is the right course of action, right?

[00:16:11] Like, if you fell, you hurt your knee, like, okay, I mean, like, let's not cry about it forever. But i- if you do give the advice without ex- proper explanation, the, anybody can, is susceptible to make the wrong conclusions of why did I just move on? You know, like, and then you start developing other things, you know, like, "Oh, I just fell off and hit my head real hard," like, I don't know, fell off a motorcycle.

[00:16:33] "Oh, it's okay. Keep moving," you know? "Keep driving like 150 miles an hour." Like, you don't learn how to associate pain or your, you know, maybe pain tolerance kinda is not in alignment. 

[00:16:44] David Cooley: Well, there's- 

[00:16:45] Mike: Whatever ... 

[00:16:45] David Cooley: there's also, there's a big difference between teaching a kid emotional resilience, like how to come back after upset or pain or an accident, versus teaching them that feeling sad or feeling upset is a problem in and of itself, or teaching them that sadness is weakness, right?

[00:17:03] That's very different. Those are very different lessons. And I think one of the things that we're learning through this work is that, yeah, generations previous didn't have access to the information that we have now. Uh, there's a lot more research available to attachment and how you create a sense of secure attachment with your kids.

[00:17:21] One of the primary ways is emotional attunement, and you were sort of... One of you were just sort of mentioning that a moment ago or a few moments ago, right? Where attunement to a child's emotional experience and validating it, right, is really important. It's a huge factor in creating a sense of secure attachment with those primary caregivers.

[00:17:42] If that emotional attunement isn't there, right, if you can't see where the kid is and have some sense of validating it, making it normal, making it okay then that kid starts to internalize there's something fundamentally wrong with 

[00:17:58] Mike: me. Yeah. I think the the hard part or the tricky part is understanding what's the proper, like, uh, proper approach for the situation.

[00:18:09] I think that could get screwed up. Uh, if the child was wrong, you have to scold him that he's wrong. 

[00:18:14] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:14] Mike: If the child is right, you have to, you know, tell him that he's right. But giving the wrong signals, it's like, it just, uh, sets you on a course for, like, continue making the same mistakes because of a belief system that, you know, that, uh, is developed.

[00:18:30] Eldar: Yeah, it's... That's a, that's a good point. And, um, can shame be used in such a way where it can benefit someone to grow? If, for example, they were, you know, they were supposed to do something right, I mean, good, and they didn't, right? Can you shame them or shame the action that they did that was wrong if they are actually wrong?

[00:18:52] We tend to do this a lot- ... because we, we, we learned the same methods, so, for, for a long time and then- Yeah ... trolling or guilt, right? A little bit, you know, shaming each other helps with a little bit of raising of the awareness as to like, like enough is enough. 

[00:19:05] David Cooley: Well, there's- 

[00:19:05] Eldar: You know? 

[00:19:06] David Cooley: I think there's a difference between making people aware of the impact of their behavior and asking for or advocating for accountability versus making critiques on someone's fundamental existential beingness or their identity.

[00:19:22] It's very different to try to get the message through that you are fundamentally a problem. You're a wrongdoer. A lot of this work is born out of my previous experience in the world of restorative justice, right? When you label a person a criminal, you're creating a precedent for a damaged sense of identity, especially when you're talking about kids, right?

[00:19:42] It's very different then to hold a space where that kid is brought to a circle where they have to confront the people that they've wronged or harmed, look at the impact of their behavior, and take accountability for it. What you see is that instead of internalizing a sense of I'm a problem or there's something fundamentally wrong with me, you actually empower those people to, through guilt in this case, or regret, right?

[00:20:09] Or an awareness of the impact. They're now able to start a cycle where they can see the consequences of their actions. They don't wanna do it anymore, and you did it without shame. So I- the accountability's real important. 

[00:20:26] Eldar: I, I agree with that approach, but can then shame, your own self-shame start to come about if you keep making the same mistake and after a while you're like, "Well, what's wrong with me?"

[00:20:35] Like, and then you kind of then- 

[00:20:36] David Cooley: Absolutely. 

[00:20:37] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:20:37] David Cooley: And that's where the shame triangle work really becomes important, right? We want to help people get out of shame spirals, because shame is actually one of the biggest hindrances to people taking responsibility or accountability in interpersonal conflict.

[00:20:51] A lot of times you'll have a partner with a legitimate grievance or feedback to another partner about the impact of their behavior, and because the feedback triggers some kind of sense of shame, they can't sit there and take the accountability and just say, "Hey, you're right. I fucked up. Hey, I've hurt you, and I can see that."

[00:21:08] If it brings up and triggers shame in me as the individual who's receiving the feedback, that's almost always one of the biggest obstacles to real repair. 

[00:21:19] Eldar: That is interesting. 

[00:21:20] David Cooley: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:21] Eldar: So Toliy, you agree with that, that shame is holding you kind of back from actually taking accountability in those types of interpersonal relationships?

[00:21:30] Um, 

[00:21:33] Toliy: I don't know. I mean, um, see, like I'm trying to figure out what's the difference between, yeah, like what you were saying, shaming somebody and trolling somebody because I think like, Well, the way that David portrayed it, at least- Yeah ... the, 

[00:21:47] Eldar: the, 

[00:21:47] Toliy: the type of shame that he's 

[00:21:48] Eldar: talking about, it's almost like malice.

[00:21:50] Malicious, right? Where like you are triggering the, you know, like a, an identity. I mean, you are you're fighting an identity or you're, you know, like you're really bullying somebody into something, you know? Versus what I was trying to discuss to see whether or not shame can be turned in such a way where it's a learning experience.

[00:22:08] Katherine: Mm. 

[00:22:08] Eldar: But what it's 

[00:22:08] Katherine: the, uh- Well, that's different. Accountability hold- Yes ... holding someone accountable and raising awareness of like, "Hey, you didn't, you know, like you didn't keep your word, and this is the result," versus like shaming someone about something that is like n- normal or natural in, in, in your life.

[00:22:26] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:22:27] Katherine: And then making them carry this feeling of like, "I'm inadequate," or like, "I'm doing this incorrectly. I shouldn't feel emotional as a man," or, "I, I shouldn't cry," you know? I think they're different. 

[00:22:40] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:22:40] Katherine: You know, is that what you're saying? 

[00:22:41] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'm trying to figure out is that like, I feel like if you if you have feelings of shame see like- I, I f- I feel like it's different if someone is trying to make you feel ashamed or whether you- Mm-hmm

[00:22:55] have your own shame that you're, like, that you've you're making, like, your own self is kind of, like, producing it. 

[00:23:02] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:23:02] Toliy: Um, like I view it as maybe a bit different there where, like, yeah, someone maybe could be using, like, malice or bad intent to make you feel- 

[00:23:10] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:23:10] Toliy: ashamed, right? I mean, they obviously, I mean, like, they probably don't, e- I mean, maybe not, but they either don't know what they're doing if they're not doing it intentionally, I guess, right?

[00:23:20] Or if they are, yeah, I guess, like, maybe they have their own, like, maybe they're just angry or, like, resentful towards you or, or whatever. But I also feel that, like, if you I think uh, at least I think based on how, how I'm thinking about it now, is that I think a lot of shame is, like, self-created based on interpretations of how things work.

[00:23:40] And to me, it's usually improper interpretations as to how the world is. Mm-hmm. Therefore you feel shame, right? Like, you know, David was talking about, for example, like, if you have a sexual orientation and that's not in line with what your parents'- 

[00:23:55] ... 

[00:23:55] Toliy: Like, beliefs are or, like, your friends, for example, right?

[00:23:58] You could feel, for example, shameful from that, but you're most likely feeling that, I feel like I feel at least, is because, like, you almost can't accept that they don't accept you almost, right? But you're not understanding that they they have their own limitations, and they're ignorant beings, and that's okay.

[00:24:14] And, but that, that, that doesn't mean that you should have an expectation that, that they're able to understand you or that they're able to, um- Mm. To know the situation. Accept it. Yeah, and accept you properly. 

[00:24:25] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:24:25] Toliy: Like, I, I don't feel like that's, like, a fair I don't know, like, demand from the world is that the world should accept you how you are or, like, who you are.

[00:24:33] I feel like the, uh, the path to victory, at least for me, i- is to understand how things actually work, how people function, and be able to feel and act accordingly based on that, and not allow that to kind of like, penetrate your walls and, and make you feel particular ways. 

[00:24:51] Eldar: And I'm sure that David's probably gonna agree with this and say that this is probably the work, right?

[00:24:55] Where to be able to see things for what they are. Yeah. And then to start removing some of that shame and not maybe place the blame. Let's hear it. 

[00:25:02] David Cooley: Yeah. Well, I'm curious, you know, for who was just talking? 'Cause I- 

[00:25:06] Eldar: Toliy. 

[00:25:07] David Cooley: Toliy. 

[00:25:08] Eldar: He's the one that you can't see. Okay. 

[00:25:10] David Cooley: So for you, are there any areas in your life where you experience an internal voice that's harsh, right?

[00:25:16] Or that's critical, that's judgemental, that you struggle with? Like, there's different facets of our life, right? Some people have body issues. Some people feel bad about their re- to money. Some people struggle with parenting. Some people struggle at their job. Right? There's different areas of our lives where we have varying degrees of competence or confidence, you know, and there's inevitably some facet of your life where you struggle or don't feel optimal.

[00:25:44] I'm curious if you track any facet of your own lived experience internally where voices or a voice feels harsh or critical that- 

[00:25:53] Eldar: David, don't get this started. This is gonna be a 10-hour podcast if, if he starts- This is a big topic ... if he starts. No. This is gonna be a 

[00:25:58] Katherine: never-ending 

[00:26:01] Eldar: thing. 

[00:26:02] David Cooley: This is the point.

[00:26:03] This is the point though, right? Is where you're talking about essentially recognizing that people are fallible, right? And I shouldn't put all of my sense of self-worth on other people's opinions. But what happens is we do internalize external voices, right? Shame doesn't come from nowhere, right?

[00:26:22] We've learned it from somewhere. We've learned harsh, critical messaging about some facet of our lived experience and parts of us, and then internalize that and take on that critical voice, and it starts to run on its own. If you don't have that in any facet of your life, that's awesome. I wanna celebrate that.

[00:26:41] This work is really for people that identify that they do, and that this critical inner voice is leading to then a res- a shame response that then loops into a way of trying to escape it, but not in a way that actually helps them, right, integrate and move beyond it, but actually keeps them stuck in these really pernicious cycles.

[00:27:02] So again, my question is, do you have a facet of your own lived experience that you're really aware of might have an inner critic here? 

[00:27:09] Toliy: Yeah, no, I, I have a ton of things and my, my, like, whole existence as far as I can remember it has always been, I feel like, around the... around, yeah, like, a ton of critics on everything, right?

[00:27:21] But I also feel through, like, my, my evolution as, like, a person, right? I feel like I, I've grown more comfortable with and, like, more friendly with harsh criticism and a a lot of how I try to at least, like, live my life is to be very comfortable with the harsh c- criticism so I can, so I can more, like, accept it and it m- might, like, o- over time be a closer friend than th- than, like, something that's, like, the complete opposite of something that I don't want, right?

[00:27:54] I, I I do have a desire for people, for example, to be honest with me, and I know at times, I mean, it's going to potentially hurt for, for a moment of time. But I do think that, like, the closer that you can get with being comfortable with hearing the honest truth, whether that's critical or not from others or from yourself, I think it grows a, um, a, uh, thicker skin on you where- you could learn and improve these, these different facets that, that you have.

[00:28:22] So like, I definitely have a lot of self-criticism on myself, but I feel like I've gotten, um, significantly better with like working through it and really understanding it as to like, hey, is what I'm thinking like myself, is it valid? Is it not va- valid? Does it make sense? Does it not make sense? Is there an argument here?

[00:28:42] Is there no argument here? Am I making this up? I- is it factual? Right? So, yeah, I'm not sure if that answers your public question, but yeah. Let 

[00:28:49] David Cooley: me more, let me get more pointed. Are, is there a specific one, a s- inner critic voice that you are, feel comfortable sharing in this context? 

[00:28:59] Toliy: Oh, no, no, so, so, so, so I'm definitely comfortable with sharing. I'm trying to think what, 

[00:29:03] what would be like a good, uh, ex- 

[00:29:05] Katherine: example. You tell us. 

[00:29:06] Eldar: I mean, y- you- Yeah. No, there's, there, yeah, no, for sure. I mean, he's been going through a lot obviously. I don't know. You could talk about maybe your weight loss and your journey of weight loss and how there was a self-critic inside that you, you know, a lot of times you came to yourself and said kind of like, "Hey, I'm a fucking fat piece of shit."

[00:29:21] You know what I mean? You were a little bit harsh on yourself maybe. Yeah. 

[00:29:24] Toliy: Yeah, I mean, like I feel like yeah, like the, uh, like I, I rec- recently lost like, um, fi- uh, 50 pounds like in the last like, six months and yeah, I feel like I was very critical about myself for a very long time and I do think at times it could be viewed upon as like an unproductive like harshness, right?

[00:29:44] Or like criticism. But I do think that there were a ton of lessons and a ton of like in- information that, that like led me to where I am now, where yeah, I view that, that like journey of being self-critical and learning those things as very valuable. You know? 

[00:30:00] David Cooley: That's great and this work is not about taking a strategy away from someone that actually feels constructive or productive.

[00:30:07] If you say, "I'm learning from this internal criticism," right? Or, "This inner critic voice and it motivates me and it's actually getting me to make a change that I want," great. I don't wanna take that away from you. But the people that are coming to me are identifying places where they're really stuck and they're wanting help and they're really able to recognize that it could be different or imagining it could be different, right?

[00:30:32] So they're not, they're not seeing the inner critic as an ally or a motivator. They're seeing it as an obstacle or a place where they're getting stuck within themselves. 

[00:30:41] Eldar: W- why do you think that is, David? Why do, why do you feel that's a lot of people that come to you or do, do you feel like maybe they don't have that, um, that thick skin that Toliy just described?

[00:30:52] David Cooley: Well, I think if, you know, if we had- Enough time, what I would want to do is explore the concept of thick skin, right? I wanna make sure that thick skin isn't a way of avoiding or masking a vulnerability, right? So that's, that's one thing, right? I hear people say thick skin. I don't want people to develop thick skin.

[00:31:12] That's like this way of I have to protect myself from my own lived experience. I want people to be able to be transparent, honest, authentic, and vulnerable with themselves. We're talking about inner relationships, right? I don't wanna have to bully or suppress or dismiss voices or parts of myself. I wanna create a new kind of relationship.

[00:31:32] A big premise of this work is that your inner voices don't have to be antagonistic or adversarial or combative. This is something that we've normalized to such a point where we don't even see it. Most people think that it's just normal for your internal voices to be adversarial. What if that's not the case?

[00:31:50] What if we could live in an internal reality where it's actually friendly, supportive, where you have inner coaches versus inner critics, inner nurturers versus escapers, right? And you're comfortable in your skin, and you're not spending this energy wrestling with adversarial voices, right? 

[00:32:09] Toliy: Well, w- well, one, one, one thing I wanted to mention about the thick skin is I feel like maybe I'll let...

[00:32:15] You can help me define it, but I feel like part of it is, like, it is that, like, if you're going to exist amongst people in this world, right, there's gonna be things that they don't like about you maybe or you don't like about them or maybe things that, like, you're either aware of or unaware of or maybe, like, things that you want to improve or maybe you're not even, like, again aware that you should be improving them, right?

[00:32:37] But I feel like to, to me part of having, I think, the thick skin is to be able to hear, yeah, like, honest critiques and not, like, um, not I guess, like, um, well, like run away from them, right? Or, like, not- Like shell up maybe. Yeah ... yeah, like, yeah, like not completely shell up. And part of this too is that, like, for example, amongst our, our, ourselves here, uh, David, we, we do, like, a lot of trolling, right?

[00:33:03] So, like, oftentimes, I mean, if we were to take seriously or if we were to really have microscopes amongst, like, how we all act, I think we would just all hate each other, right? But I feel like we, we have to almost take, like, lighthearted, like, stabs at each other in an effort to raise a- awareness, right?

[00:33:24] Versus just, like, be extremely harsh and, like, you know, like the, uh, not-so-great characteristics that maybe we all internally have at times, right? Uh, we, we kind of use, like, trolling to, to raise that awareness because it's like, it could sound, like, mean or harsh in, like, the moment, and it, it might not be even fully true But there has some truth for it.

[00:33:45] Like for example if I'm acting poorly, like Elder could may- may- maybe like, um, troll me and say like, "Hey," like, "I'm a piece of shit," for example, right? And like- 

[00:33:55] Eldar: Well, 

[00:33:55] Toliy: that's a- Over- 

[00:33:55] Eldar: That's very corny, but I usually- 

[00:33:56] Toliy: Yeah ... 

[00:33:56] Eldar: make it much more- 

[00:33:57] Toliy: Yeah ... fun. Yeah, yeah. Like that, that, that, that's like a very corny one.

[00:34:00] But, but yeah, like I, I like... he may not b- think that I'm actually a, like a piece of shit person, but there could be some truth for it where I could be acting like a piece of shit person at times, right? But you can kind of make that in like a joke format where you joke about it enough times, and then I think the p- the, uh, person, if they have thick skin they could start then being the person that asks themselves question, "Well hey, does Elder have a point?"

[00:34:30] And then you kind of start that process of trying to figure out, like is there something here? Is there something for me to work on? Is there something like going on here? And of- oftentimes, like if there's something I'm doing wrong or something about my behavior, how I act, how I think about things, like whatever it is, right?

[00:34:48] Those, tho- tho- that like trolling, that there, there's like a, uh, truth to it that then gives me that kind of ability to start being able to see it. And then when I start when I get that awareness, I can slowly start working on it. Whereas like it, it would be way too much if someone just, just like, I don't know, unloaded a list of everything bad, bad about you at one time or something.

[00:35:11] Eldar: So can I, can I just add something real quick, David? I think that w- you know, what Toliy described here is maybe more of a, an established relationship or an established dynamic. Maybe it's a, it's, it's a silent vow that we took to understand that all of our intentions here are to help one another, right?

[00:35:28] To challenge one another, and that's why I think that, you know, um, the thick skin or reverting to be able to then analyze it and not internalize it in a negative way becomes a little bit easier in this type of circle. But I see how like, how like if a stranger or a guest, you know how a lot of times new people come into our lives- right? I know that our language and our words- Mm-hmm ... and our ability to- Yeah ... you know, use words in very specific ways can be very sharp. Yeah. You know what I mean? And you can see that an individual who is not used to this kind of rhetoric, right? They can look at it as like, "Are you guys weaponizing these words against me?"

[00:36:03] Right? Or like, "What are your intentions here?" Right? And I think that, I mean, our work, right, just like your work is, right? To raise awareness on the intention behind words, behind what we're trying to do. And ultimately, right, I mean, I'm hearing what I'm hearing from David is he's raising awareness that we should approach it from, from the loving perspective.

[00:36:21] Yeah, yeah. Have the inner critic that is- Mm-hmm ... that is from love, right? Mm-hmm. From compassion, right? Yeah. And I think that we're, our work is the same thing, where we can actually understand what is actually going on here, and that's what I think Toliy has described here. 

[00:36:33] David Cooley: Yeah, absolutely, and I think you were right to- Contextualize the relationship that you're in, right?

[00:36:38] You have a normalized relational culture where banter and shit talk is something that you all understand explicitly is grounded in the intention of developing self-awareness, right? And don't get me wrong, I love shit talk. Like, that's... I grew up in an environment where that was really important. I actually grew up in a place that was relatively dangerous and violent.

[00:36:59] And so there was a way in which developing thick skin and strategies to respond to a world that's harsh is very real. It's very legitimate. But what I'm talking about is how do you relate to yourself internally and the voices therein, right? And it's cool if you've got bantering parts within you and you understand that that's not crippling you or becoming an obstacle to you living your fullest life, you enjoying the relationships you want to enjoy, you not having to mute or mask something that feels true for you.

[00:37:30] That's really where I'm, I'm wanting to raise awareness so that people have a sense of choice around their own inner experience. If you've got the dial calibrated to the point where you're good, sweet, you don't need me, right? But if you do need me, I wanna be here for you. 

[00:37:47] Mike: Do you feel like most people, uh, have that opportunity to be able to, I guess, um, find that inner voice that's uh, that's hidden?

[00:37:55] Because a lot of times, like, I feel like the dialogues, the internal dialogues, on regardless on any topic, is the things that give us problems, whether it's shame or anything pretty much, anxiety or fear or s- right? They all ha- they're all internal. So, do you feel that the people that you work with or people in general that you come across have the opportunity to kinda make sense of that dialogue, but, like, look at it from an internal dialogue from an outsider perspective, which sounds kinda hard to do?

[00:38:30] David Cooley: Yeah. Well, there's a process, you know, and there's relative degrees of capacity for people to do this work. It depends on whether or not you've got any personal growth work or self-transformation growth under your belt. It depends on your family of origin, you know, what your interests were. A lot of trauma, personal trauma can influence your capacity to do this work.

[00:38:50] You know, there's a lot of different starting points for people. But one of the things I really like about this work is there's the parts that we've been talking about which can be really overwhelming, really destabilizing, can dysregulate you, can make your life harder. There's a counterpoint to that, and that's the concept of self.

[00:39:08] And self is not a part. Self is really kind of the unborn, eternal essence of your being that is not identified with any of the parts, but can hold all of the parts' perspectives. And so the self energy is really interesting. It's really the facet of our consciousness that's organized, grounded, compassionate Creative, confident without trying to be.

[00:39:33] Doesn't have to m- do anything or make anything happen. It's just the part of us that's spacious and present at any given moment. So the person who created the system of internal family systems, his name was Richard Schwartz, and he was working with people who were severely traumatized, really intense eating disorders and other forms of trauma that people sort of had abandoned them in, mm, uh, therapeutic context, right?

[00:39:59] People were sort of, "Oh, th- these people are beyond help," a lot of times, right? Or just managing symptoms was all that they could hope for, and he would start to work with them, and he would start identifying these different parts. And he's found that in all of them, regardless of the severity of their trauma, they could all get to this place within them that they identified to some degree as the real me.

[00:40:21] And so he started to call this self. And it was interesting 'cause he was able to start teaching people how to connect to this self and distinguish it from the parts that were causing them so much agony and pain. And so what we do in the work is we're teaching people how to consciously and intentionally, little by little, make more and more connection and ground their consciousness in this self energy that then allows them to have a very different relationship with their parts.

[00:40:49] And it's, it's very transformative, very revolutionary for a lot of individuals. So this is really the work that we're trying to do, is to get people to connect to the self and then leverage that when they're struggling with parts. 

[00:41:02] Toliy: And, uh, David, do you think that, like, that part of this work is, like, um, challenging or rewiring what, what people val- value?

[00:41:12] David Cooley: Maybe to some degree. I thi- definitely rewiring. You're rewiring a lot of old patterning. It could call it, it could ca- yeah, belief systems senses of identity. A lot of- 

[00:41:25] Toliy: Yeah, because, like, a lot of this it seems like is just, like, probably from when, when people were children, right?

[00:41:32] Based on, like, how they were raised and what behaviors they learn or they didn't learn, right? And then when they're older, they're kind of suffering the consequences, right, of those, like, ac- actions that they al- almost didn't have a choice in, right? Because they were a child- children or not developed yet, or kids.

[00:41:48] So then they have to kind of like, rewire everything and figure out what's actually right, right and wrong, and then, um, identify, like, what are the correct emotions or not correct emotions that they're feeling, whether they're, you know, re- real or not real or va- well, well, well, they're real, but valid or not valid, right?

[00:42:05] But my question is I guess, like, when you help people my guess at least is that it's a lot easier for them to feel or, like, understand what you're saying when they're speaking with you, right? But, how difficult do you think it is for people, or, like, what's the separating factors that could then help them take this in- in- into the world that may not be as, like, that, that won't speak as correctly as you will speak or won't be, like, acting in a particular way that, like, y- you act, right?

[00:42:33] Do you... You know what I'm saying? 

[00:42:36] Eldar: Okay, I got you. Yeah. I got you. David. So what he's saying is that how difficult do you think it's gonna be for the person, right, who's first speaking to you, who's a very accepting, compassionate, and thoughtful individual- 

[00:42:48] Mike: Yeah ... 

[00:42:49] Eldar: versus them going into the world and then being able to apply them- their new self, q- quote-unquote, that they dis- discovered with you in that moment, right, and bring that into the world- And not lose the battle again

[00:43:00] and not lo- and not lose that again- Yeah ... over and over and over again? Because what... I think the challenge is a, is an immense one. Yeah. I, I think David would probably agree with that. Yeah, 

[00:43:07] David Cooley: it depends on the person's lived experience. You know, it depends on where they are. It depends on where they are on their own personal journey.

[00:43:12] It depends on the community of people that they're surrounded by. There's just so many factors that determine a person's relative degree of struggle, right? So for some people they get what they need from me, and they're able to really engineer and consistently maintain these trajectory shifts in their own consciousness, and other people really struggle and need more support in a, a longer term fashion.

[00:43:37] So it really depends. There's no sort of one-size-fits-all answer to that question. But for some, yeah, there's a lot of people that they do this work with me, it's really vulnerable, it opens up a lot of doors, and then they go back into, quote-unquote, their real world experience, and it's really tough.

[00:43:53] They're really swimming against a pretty rough current. 

[00:43:57] Toliy: Okay. Yeah. Yeah, 'cause I viewed it as that, like, you know what you're saying obviously, and you can speak and understand things in a particular way. Mm-hmm. But there almost needs to be, like, some kind of, like, um, empowerment from the person to be able to not take the energy, I guess, that, like, you give off, right?

[00:44:13] But they, they have to be able to create their own energy to actually then go and benefit from these, like, new understandings and, and new teachings and kind of make it their own. 

[00:44:22] David Cooley: Absolutely. 

[00:44:23] Toliy: So they... Yeah. 

[00:44:23] David Cooley: Absolutely. Do you all, do any of you, and I... If you're not comfortable answering this question, it's fine, but do you all participate or have used psychedelics at all in therapeutic context?

[00:44:35] Mike: No. 

[00:44:35] Katherine: No. No. 

[00:44:35] David Cooley: Okay. So that's an interesting realm. Therapeutic work with psychedelics is a growing field, and it's starting to create... There's starting to be new legitimacy, and there's decriminalization happening. Ketamine is a, a really profound example where a lot of people are using the substance to alter their consciousness to get new perspectives on their lived experience.

[00:44:59] So a lot of people with trauma histories are able to take ketamine and look at something that in the past was so painful that up to this point they couldn't even look at. They couldn't even spend five minute or a moment thinking about this traumatic event, and the substance has allowed them to spend more time in proximity to this experience and start to learn about it.

[00:45:20] The substance creates this moment for the nervous system that previously was not possible, where it's safe to look at my trauma. It creates a whole new association. It's a possibility. It's a window that opens in that moment of using the substance. After the substance wears off, the old patterning comes back online, and it's still hard to go back and re-access that trauma and look at it in an objective way.

[00:45:47] But with repeated use, the nervous system starts to learn, "Okay, this is actually safe." And many people get to the point where now I can look at, explore, talk about, consider, and even play with the trauma now without ketamine. Right, so the ketamine isn't in and of itself curing you or fixing your situation.

[00:46:07] It's helping your nervous system primarily understand something else is possible. A relationship is possible. It can be safe to look at something uncomfortable, but it takes time. The re-patterning is necessary. It's not gonna just happen once, twice, in a month, two months, right, depending on what we're talking about.

[00:46:28] It's a process. And so yes, absolutely, it's going to require a certain kind of commitment, effort, perseverance, right? It's not guaranteed, and I can't give it to somebody. 

[00:46:41] Eldar: Now, my next question, David, is, um, like any other thing that, you know, people have problems with, for example, alcoholism or drug abuse is shame al- does shame also have maybe like a rock bottom where, like, you have to get to that point where you can finally start turning the other leaf and start looking for that help proactively versus maybe just, you know, dipping your toes once in a while?

[00:47:06] David Cooley: Yeah, for some people, absolutely. And I've seen people that don't seem to have any bottom, even though there's a tremendous amount of shame. I've known addicts that keep doing what they're doing. They're racked by intense, crushing shame and that they can't stop. Right, so- 

[00:47:21] ... 

[00:47:21] David Cooley: Yeah, I mean, shame is, is driving, I think, the majority of addictive behavior.

[00:47:26] A lot of people go to therapy to deal with behaviors that on the surface are really what we would call the escapers, right? "I don't wanna feel the pain of my shame, and so I go to the addiction." Addiction for us is really a surface-level symptom of something that's rooted in shame. And that's, you know, I don't- 

[00:47:46] Katherine: Mm-hmm

[00:47:46] David Cooley: if you've heard of Gabor Maté You know, he, he's done a lot of work around addiction that I really appreciate 'cause he understands these psychological roots and how they're often really rooted in relationships either to society or to family that caused some kind of rupture in a person's sense of self and self-worth.

[00:48:04] And so there, there's a lot of really well-documented research. It's just, it's not mainstream yet unfortunately. So we're still treating addiction as if that's really the thing itself versus really getting into the psycho-relational aspects of people's experience that's underpinning the addictive patterning.

[00:48:25] Eldar: Well, next question is, David, uh, have you seen cases where an individual just doesn't get it, right? They're going through the whole shameful experience and they're going through the trauma, but, you know, advice after advice, session after session, right? They just don't get it, right? And how do you view that yourself?

[00:48:48] David Cooley: How do I view it? 

[00:48:50] Eldar: Yeah, like how do you internalize that for yourself as to like why do they, they don't get... Why do they keep repeating the same process? Is it that they're just so entrenched in that sickness or illness, let's just say? Is it justified for them to be there? Uh, do they need more suffering before they kind of hit that rock bottom and finally say, "You know, I wanna climb out of this," type of rhetoric?

[00:49:11] David Cooley: Yeah, it's a, it's a good question. I mean, there's, there are people that are beyond my scope of practice for sure, right? That I can't break through to, or the work doesn't seem to get traction. You know, my understanding or interpretation of that is either it wasn't a good fit in terms of practitioner and client.

[00:49:29] That sometimes is the case, uh, which is totally fine, and that's natural and inevitable. Or the trauma is so intense that the intervention has to be different, you know, and then some people never heal. Some people just don't. Some people go to the grave without resolving their trauma, and I can't...

[00:49:48] There's nothing I can do about that. I can't save people from their existence, right? So a big precursor or, or prerequisite rather for my work is there has to be enough... Two things. There's two key factors in success in the work with me. There has to be enough willingness and capacity, right? So you have to have the willingness to even step into the work.

[00:50:09] Capacity is then to stay in it, right? And learn the skills, the techniques to keep- 

[00:50:15] Toliy: The stamina ... 

[00:50:15] David Cooley: right, perseverance, to keep going. 

[00:50:18] Toliy: The thick skin. 

[00:50:19] David Cooley: Could be. Yeah, that could be a- A 

[00:50:21] Toliy: little bit of 

[00:50:22] David Cooley: that ... that could be a capacity criteria for you, right? Like- 

[00:50:25] Toliy: Yeah, 'cause I think it's difficult for those people, right?

[00:50:28] Or, or just, I mean, in general and it's difficult for people to talk about this kind of stuff or to do this kind of stuff. Totally. So I feel like there has to be some inner, like a resilience here, right? Where- Mm. 

[00:50:37] Katherine: Willingness ... 

[00:50:38] David Cooley: courage. 

[00:50:38] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:50:38] David Cooley: Yeah. There has to be courage. There has to be tenacity. There has to be enough sense of the risk of letting the patterns continue- And recognize that if I don't do something different, that I'm gonna lose something that's really important to me.

[00:50:52] There has to be something driving people to change. 

[00:50:55] Toliy: Do, do, do you think that part of the, the, um, prerequisites is, is like... Well, no. No, I was gonna say, like, do you think that they have to believe that there is another way that that's possible? 

[00:51:08] David Cooley: Probably to some degree, yeah. There has to be some hope, right?

[00:51:12] That things can be different. Otherwise, if you're just in total hopelessness, then you probably won't be motivated to, to 

[00:51:18] Toliy: do 

[00:51:18] David Cooley: anything. 

[00:51:19] Toliy: But, but how, how do people that are in that kind of position to begin with, like what, what do you think that, like, would even lead them to believe that there is actually, like, this other life that you're talking about here for, for them?

[00:51:30] David Cooley: Yeah, it depends on the person, but for some people, the... Right, there's two, two ways to look at that. One is there's the promise of hope. Where does that come from? Maybe you see other people. They seem to be living lives that are fulfilling or working for them. Maybe that's possible for me, just on sort of reason base, right?

[00:51:50] Others have some model. It was imperfect, but there was someone in their lives that supported them or was kind in a moment that it really mattered, right? There was enough connection, human connection, to say, "Okay, my life is worth living," right? "And maybe I can be a better person." Some people have kind of coming to Jesus moments, right?

[00:52:11] Whether they're religious or not, there's sort of an existential crisis that brings them to the point of death, and they're shocked into the realization that life is actually worth living and they wanna be alive. So there's different reasons. There's different ways that people are motivated or sort of moved, um, by hope to change, right?

[00:52:32] Toliy: Yeah, 'cause I feel like it, there, there's almost like this, like, baked in ar- arrogance I feel like that, that people have that suffer a lot with this, where they th- they, they think that they know how things, like, are and how they ought to be, but they're wrong about it, right? Which is why, like, they're in that kind of situation to begin with, and they kind of more normalize it, right?

[00:52:52] And just say like, "Hey," like, "David," like, "this is how it's supposed to be." You know? Like, "What are you, what are you talking about?" You know? Or like, they al- they almost have that kind of ar- ar- arrogance that was created out, out of thinking that they've either tried everything, right? Or that, like, it's just supposed to be th- this way.

[00:53:07] Or maybe, like, they might view you as like- They're the, they're an unlucky one and you're a lucky one type, type of scenario, right? 

[00:53:13] David Cooley: Yeah, I li- 

[00:53:14] Eldar: They can have victim mentality. 

[00:53:15] Toliy: Yeah, vi- yeah, victim mentality here in 

[00:53:17] Eldar: particular. He probably runs 

[00:53:18] Toliy: into all of that. 

[00:53:19] David Cooley: I like that you're saying that because this is something that we actually cover explicitly in the book, and it's the mindsets of these different shame triangle parts, right?

[00:53:27] Parts in general, when they're active or inflamed, often resort to very specific mindsets, and there's four that we document and show that kind of cycle themselves over and over in people's internal conflictual patterns. And so one is the adversarial, right? I start to pit people against me. If I don't like what you're doing or if the part isn't sort of in harmony with other parts internally, it acts as an adversary.

[00:53:56] So an adversarial thinking, me against, right, is one. Two is a fixed mindset, which you were just referencing, right? This is just the way things are, right? It's the belief that we have sort of insight into the fundamental truth, big T truth, of reality. We know it, and that could be kind of the arrogance that you're talking about, right?

[00:54:17] Versus acknowledging that human knowledge is always limited and it's always relative. The third would be expert, and it's similar to the fixed mindset. It's I know what's best, I know what's right, I know what's true, right? And so those two go together, right? This is how it is, and I know how it is, and I'm the arbiter of that truth.

[00:54:39] And then finally, you have binary, all or nothing thinking, right? Black and white, right or wrong, no gray area. It's this or it's that. When I hear people slip into language that's indicative or reflective of these mindsets, that's a key to me that they're in some kind of part. They're blended with a part.

[00:54:58] And so what I want to do then is make explicit that these are just mindsets. These aren't reflective of reality. These are just models or maps of reality, and there's lots of different mindsets we could take on. And so in the book, we offer four anecdotes, right? Four different mindsets that are more expansive, that help people deal more with complexity, right?

[00:55:20] Nuance, gray area, uncertainty, right? It's a harder place to be and it requires more of us, but it offers us more possibilities, right? So we go from the adversarial mindset to the restorative one or a relational one. We go to the fixed mindset to a growth mindset. We go from an expert consciousness to a beginner's mind consciousness, and we go from binary to a non-dual, right?

[00:55:45] So these are examples of looking at the structure of our thoughts and beliefs and recognizing that they're determining the way that things feel and how we behave. Does that make sense? It's a lot to throw at you at once. 

[00:55:58] Eldar: Yeah, I had a question around that. Y- I guess maybe the way... It sounds almost like you are raising awareness, right?

[00:56:04] Like, if the person comes back to you with their arrogant behavior or their arrogant mindset or belief systems that are not necessarily true and you know it, right? You almost raise awareness about those parts of them versus challenging them, right? 

[00:56:20] David Cooley: Well, it's inter- 

[00:56:21] Eldar: Versus saying... 

[00:56:22] David Cooley: it's interesting.

[00:56:23] The way you frame it is interesting, 'cause it, it, the way that you frame that, it boxes us into a certain kind of positioning that I don't want, right? You say it might... They ha- have a mindset that's not true. It's not about whether the mindset is true or not, it's whether or not you want that mindset. Most people have internalized mindsets that they didn't choose.

[00:56:44] I want people to choose their mindsets based on their reasoned assessment of their value, right? So I see these mindsets as limiting. So for me, I don't want to inhabit and live according to these mindsets, not because they're wrong or not true, but because they're not preferable, and they don't take me to where I want to be experientially.

[00:57:07] I see they're lim- 

[00:57:08] Eldar: That's interesting. I wa- yeah, that's very interesting, actually. The way, that, that approach is very interesting. 

[00:57:12] David Cooley: Mm-hmm. So it's different. It's not about right and wrong or true or not true, it's about what do you want? What's the life, what's the mindset you want, right? What's the life you want?

[00:57:22] What's the mindset that's gonna get you there? But, 

[00:57:25] Toliy: but I feel like in, in that question of, like, choice, right, they, they have to... People, I feel like they, um- They'll s- they'll say one thing, 

[00:57:34] Eldar: but they'll do another. 

[00:57:35] Toliy: Well, y- yes, but they also have to like when they're making that decision, they have to internally feel that something is right or something is, is wrong, right?

[00:57:43] And they're gonna obviously want what they feel is, is right, but then that, that, that would then mean that there is something that's wrong, right? 

[00:57:53] Eldar: They might even ha- they might a- they might even have an attachment towards the, the arrogant part of themselves, and they might even comply in the moment of the session.

[00:58:01] As to say, "Yeah, I agree with David here," right? But ultimately, internally, if they weren't really challenged, right, they'll take, they'll go back and they'll just turn off that switch during that session. They'll just go back to their regular life. Well, 

[00:58:12] Toliy: that's what I was asking in in like ear um, earlier, that I feel like, I think that Dav- David will have the ability to, to tap into them, right?

[00:58:19] But, like, how do they get to that point where they can not rely, for example, on, like, David's compassion and good questioning and good points to then harness that energy and actually be empowered 

[00:58:31] Eldar: themselves? Yeah. You know? Yes. I think that David probably does a very good job in his session to be able to have them comply with certain good things that he is saying, but you're saying that they might not be able to take that back and own it.

[00:58:43] Toliy: Y- well, well, I, I think they, like, people in general will have a very hard time owning it, yes, and then being able to, to, um, to summon it. It's, it's like that- That example almost like in, uh, Little Buddha, right? Where you know, meditating, like, I don't know, in a monastery or a temple- 

[00:59:00] Eldar: In the woods, it's 

[00:59:01] Toliy: easy

[00:59:01] ver- versus there's a scary creature in front of you, and being able to me- to, to meditate- 

[00:59:06] Eldar: In Times Square. 

[00:59:07] Toliy: Yeah, in, yeah, in Times Square, or maybe you have that, like, monster in front of you, being able to summon- Yeah ... those good things- 

[00:59:13] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:59:13] Toliy: in, in, in those moments. 

[00:59:15] Eldar: That's why we see all those people that practice yoga, right?

[00:59:17] Yeah. After they finish yoga, they come out to the parking lot and give the finger to everybody when they drive off. Yeah. Nobody does 

[00:59:23] Katherine: that. No, but you're, 

[00:59:25] David Cooley: you're, you're signaling something very real, right? You're talking about- Yeah ... levels of limitation and of integration, right? How much practice has someone done, right?

[00:59:35] It's very- Yeah ... difficult to expect someone who's done two months of kung fu to be able to defend themselves in a real bar fight versus someone who's been doing it- Yeah ... for 10 years. 

[00:59:45] Toliy: Mm. 

[00:59:45] Eldar: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 

[00:59:46] David Cooley: That's a good point. It's not about fundamental capacity, it's about is there capacity to do the work long enough so that this actually becomes integrated.

[00:59:55] Eldar: Yeah, it's who they are. It's like, it's you fun- to fundamentally change someone, it, I mean, it takes, you know this, 

[01:00:02] Toliy: right? I know, yeah, I know this. You know this. You know what I mean? Yeah, just, I- This is decades ... but, yes, but I do view the concept of chall- of challenging their beliefs, which I also know does create fric- friction.

[01:00:15] But I feel like I'm also like- 

[01:00:19] Eldar: I mean, this is what we love, dude ... uh, yes, 

[01:00:20] Toliy: yeah. We, we love the static. Yeah, I'm also- We love the fights. Yeah. Um, um, um, I'm also okay with that friction because I also know that, like, if I'm doing it, I will also potentially, like, I'm willing to be long enough in the person's life to go through the fight, you know, then put our weapons down eventually, right?

[01:00:38] And, and be able to, like, eventually, like- Hug, hug in your underwear. 

[01:00:42] Yeah. Yeah, you know? Yeah, yeah. Where- versus, like, yeah, I just feel that, like, without that, that, that challenge, I think it's very difficult to break through through people's, like, understandings of the world and understandings of life.

[01:00:55] And ultimately, I, I even think it's, like, even past that. I think it's even the bigger thing is, like, their overall ego and arrogance about how things work in, in, in general. Because I feel like people always show that, like, they think they know how everything is supposed to work, and they always think that their suffering or how they feel about things, like, is always justified and always makes sense.

[01:01:19] But I feel like oftentimes it doesn't make sense, and they're just creating their own prisons. And they're willfully, like, uh, living in them, even though there is an option out. 

[01:01:28] David Cooley: No, I think, I think there's a big point of refer- of resonance for me with what you're saying. I, like, I really like friction. I really like the challenge of the discomfort of having my belief systems challenged I love, that's why I love this work.

[01:01:44] I like being in conflict with people because I learn more through conflict and discomfort than I do through being comfortable and everything's easy. It doesn't mean I wanna stay and be in personal conflict in my interpersonal relationships, but I love this work because for me it is. It's like being in the dojo.

[01:02:04] It's like being in the octagon, and I'm getting tested and challenged all the time with clients, and I'm amazed by the clients that come to me. The people that come to me, they want change, and they're looking for help to get there, right? So they're willing to be challenged. They're willing to be with that friction, and I love that.

[01:02:24] I fall in love with my clients for that reason, because I love people who love that kind of tension, and they don't see it as something problematic or threatening, or at least enough to some degree they're able to see, yeah, this is valuable. This is important. This is giving me something that I want. So going back, I think, Elder, to a, a point you made earlier, I don't want anyone to comply with what I'm saying or advocating for.

[01:02:49] I want them to really snack on and chew what I'm advocating for and then suss out for themselves, is it in alignment for them, for their values, for their sense of reality? Is it what they want? I'm not trying to sell somebody a reality. I'm trying to get them to think about their own in a way that's more critical.

[01:03:12] Eldar: Yeah, and I think that that definitely aligns with what we're talking about and how we approach certain things, for sure. Ultimately, I think that David does get in, have to get into a fight, you know? Because, uh, those faces, those adversaries, they're ugly and they're gonna come out- 

[01:03:26] Toliy: Yeah ... 

[01:03:26] Eldar: whether you like it or not, right?

[01:03:28] You might have the moment of like, "Okay, I'm ready to get some help," and reach out to him, but that doesn't necessarily mean that session after session you're gonna come and be humble, vulnerable, patient, right? 

[01:03:39] David Cooley: I get that. 

[01:03:40] Eldar: Hon- honest, right? 

[01:03:42] David Cooley: Totally. I've had people 

[01:03:43] Eldar: scream in 

[01:03:43] David Cooley: my face. 

[01:03:45] Eldar: So, yeah. You know? So yeah, it's...

[01:03:49] How important do you think not giving unsolicited advice, David, in, in your work? 

[01:03:55] David Cooley: Huge. Huge. 

[01:03:57] Eldar: Huge, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's, 

[01:03:58] David Cooley: it's a cardinal commandment, for sure. 

[01:04:00] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. It's a prerequisite, for sure- ... for a lot of this t- type of work. 

[01:04:03] David Cooley: Absolutely. And St- and I think to add to that is not having an agenda, not feeling responsible for clients and their journey.

[01:04:11] If I start to think that, one, I know what this person really needs, and then two, it's my responsibility to help them and get them somewhere specific, I'm fucked, and they're fucked. I'm holding a space, I'm holding a mirror up, and I'm offering ways that are alternative to what they've been doing that isn't working.

[01:04:30] You're coming to me and you're saying, "I've got these ways of being. I've got these strategies to try to get my needs met, and it's not working." And I say, "Okay-" Here's some alternatives. Do you wanna help? Considering those and how to integrate those into your life, they have to say yes, right? To some degree.

[01:04:48] It doesn't mean, again, that we don't have bad moments or that they're getting triggered and parts get active and they start to project onto me. Yeah, of course. And I hold my own and I say, "Great, sounds like you're dysregulated right now. Can we talk about why? What's coming up for you? It's not a problem that you're upset, let's just lean into it and figure out what, what it is.

[01:05:07] Let's get the information." 

[01:05:09] Toliy: Yeah, 'cause like, there's basically like, like people who act in that kind of way. It's like they're almost like insane people and they're in like a level of insanity and basically- In the moment ... you're almost having to try to, uh, um, help them. Well first may- maybe understand that they might be insane, right?

[01:05:27] Like they, they- Well, in the, at least the moment is insane ... yeah, in, in, in these moments as- 

[01:05:30] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:05:31] Toliy: that they're talking about that they're unhappy with their lives or they're unhappy how things are, those are moments of insanity. But yeah, I think it's really diff- d- difficult to get people to, one, realize that they, that they are insane, and then two that yeah, they...

[01:05:44] Like the world that they've created is wrong, you know?

[01:05:48] David Cooley: Yeah. Again, I would s- 

[01:05:49] Toliy: Yeah, I feel like jumping over that is hard ... 

[01:05:50] David Cooley: I would just change the nomenclature. I wouldn't say wrong, I would just say it's not in alignment with how they want to be.

[01:05:59] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:05:59] Toliy: Yeah, see, I feel like it's interesting, right? That like different- 

[01:06:01] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:06:02] Toliy: not saying that, 'cause, 'cause like- Well, I 

[01:06:03] Eldar: also think that David, you know, he, I mean, he's a professional. Yeah. All right? So he, I think he has to choose very specific words. 

[01:06:08] Toliy: To, to, to, to not create tension. Well- 

[01:06:10] Eldar: Right? 'Cause 

[01:06:11] Toliy: like 

[01:06:11] Eldar: saying, saying that this is wrong, it automatically, I think pro- probably creates- The thing is-

[01:06:16] a fight ... the relationships that he has with these people have probably, and especially in the beginning, right? He has to use the long way, right? Yeah. But, but then as he's, they start to get to know each other and they have a client r- you know, distrust, everything that's built, he then can start shortening those words and maybe he can use the word wrong later down the line, and that person will know exactly the intent that he's using it with.

[01:06:35] I'll never- Right? 

[01:06:36] David Cooley: I'll never use the word wrong in my sessions with clients. 

[01:06:40] Eldar: No? Okay. 

[01:06:40] David Cooley: Never. 

[01:06:40] Eldar: So he doesn't like the w- he, he doesn't like the word wrong. Yeah. I'm, 

[01:06:43] David Cooley: I'm not pr- 

[01:06:44] Eldar: Yes, yeah, I feel like, 

[01:06:45] David Cooley: yeah ... protecting ethical or moral superiority in my, my work. I'm letting people tell me what works and doesn't work in their world, right?

[01:06:55] And that, again, it's a certain level of consciousness. People are coming to me and saying, "I'm struggling with this relationship. I don't understand. I want this relationship to work. I want intimacy with this other person." And I'll say, "Great, so let's figure out what isn't working." So maybe you call what's not working wrong.

[01:07:16] I'm not gonna say wrong because it, it has too many, there's too much weight to it. There's too many connotations. There's too many ways for that word to get interpreted, and that's going to add more problems and not- Yeah ... uh, options. In the same w- like with insane I would never use a word like that. I would use a word like dysregulation.

[01:07:33] This is one of the things that we talk about in the book too, is a huge part of resolving conflict is learning how to work with our nervous systems. When you feel threatened or triggered by somebody, you're having a very physiological response to it often, right? Most people aren't aware of the way- 

[01:07:49] Toliy: 100%.

[01:07:50] David Cooley: The nervous system starts to amp up or shut down in response to interpersonal conflict. With the shame triangle, we can have those same physiological responses to inner voices, which is fascinating. You can have an inner critic start going off, and you can start measuring your body's threat response to your own thought process.

[01:08:12] If you can't track that and re-regulate yourself, then you're gonna stay in the loop, right? So if someone- Yeah ... looks insane in a moment, I'm thinking, "Oh, this person's dysregulated. Their nervous system's in a threat response. How do we re-regulate them?" It's the first thing I think. How can I re- 

[01:08:29] Toliy: Yeah

[01:08:29] David Cooley: re-regulate 

[01:08:30] Toliy: you? Yeah. Um, I'm just thinking, I'm wondering that, like, I definitely understand w- what you're saying, and I, I mean, I think I do, and, and why you're saying it. Um, like, 'cause it's like, yeah, I do agree that, like, word- words, it's like you have it wrong or, like, that's incorrect.

[01:08:44] There, there's definitely a lot of weight to them for, for sure. 100%, yeah. Right? Just my question is, is that, like, I still believe that for people to have fundamental change that is not reliant on, like, either, like... Because I think that, like, through I think a lot of these types of things that people struggle with, I think sometimes and I've done this at times myself, um, um, I don't know if I have any really good examples to share, but sometimes there's, there's, like, a routine change to it, right?

[01:09:17] Where, like, you learn about some things, and then you create almost, like, a routine, right? And you don't experience that kind of pain anymore. But if that routine is disrupted, i- is disrupted because you actually never- Understood it ... like, understood it for what it is- Mm. Okay ... right, and called things right or wrong.

[01:09:37] My question is that, like, do you think that people eventually have to either get that, get to that place where they actually do get to a point where they call things right or wrong, and actually do place that, like, heavy weight in one way or the other way for them to actually fundamentally change, and then ultimately to be able to then harness that energy from actual understanding to, to a- to actually be able then to use it themselves in the real, real world, and then I guess, like, if we wanna say, like, fight off the, uh, the demons of the world, right?

[01:10:09] Yeah, 

[01:10:09] Katherine: yeah, 

[01:10:10] Toliy: yeah. You know? 

[01:10:11] David Cooley: Yeah. I think personally- And professionally, no, I don't think it's necessary to classify something as wrong versus to identify what are the consequences of it, what are the impacts of it, the behavior, the circumstances, the situation. To work against something, even life and death, like to put your life and dedicate it and put it on the line to defend something that you think is the correct way of being, it doesn't have to be a moral question.

[01:10:38] It can be a question of, "I understand the consequences of this." Like, it's a thin line to, to walk, right? But for me, I'm just, I'm not comfortable resting in the binary of right and wrong. Life is too complex for me and, and my experience for that. It shuts the window down on too much context, especially when you're talking about relationships.

[01:11:02] And again, that's the context I'm working in specifically, so I don't wanna get into big world things. I wanna stay at the level of relationship, 'cause that's where I'm focused. 

[01:11:13] Toliy: But do you personally believe that thing, that there are things that are right and wrong? 

[01:11:17] David Cooley: I think there's things that, again, like I understand the consequences of, right?

[01:11:22] Like letting Hitler just run amok through all of Europe is gonna have consequences that I'm not on board with, right? And I would want to mobilize and stop Hitler because I see that it's, it's causing so much harm, so much damage, right? It's impacting the world in such a fundamental way that I don't find it acceptable.

[01:11:45] I'm not down with it, and I'm willing- 

[01:11:47] Toliy: But then you, you would say it's wrong then, right? What he was doing is, for example, wrong, which is why you feel that, that way, right? 

[01:11:54] David Cooley: I would say I'm not in agreement with it, and I think the consequences of it are something that need to be countered.

[01:11:59] Again, you're, what you're implying is having a kind of a monopoly on ethics or morals, and then you get to say what's right and wrong. And for me, it's such a slippery slope that I'm wanting to be cautious and hesitant about it, and I'm wanting to actually err on the side of caution versus just to say, "Yes, we can always say with certainty," which is another thing I don't trust, right, that something's right and wrong and we know.

[01:12:24] Who are the arbitrators of it, and how, what's your criteria, right? It starts to get really flimsy. 

[01:12:31] Toliy: Can you, like, all right then would you be able to like like would, would the arbitrators be able to be like non like not, not the opinion, for example, of humans, but just like, for example, like tuning in with like a frequency of like the, uh, truth?

[01:12:45] Where just like, like there's like a right and wrong out there, and people just tune into it ver- versus a person that, that's like the arbitrator of, of right or wrong. 

[01:12:55] David Cooley: I'm not sure what you're, what the question is there. 

[01:12:58] Toliy: Do you know what I'm saying, though, there? Or Well, well, well, no. I basically I think, I, I, I think at least what David's saying is that he's not comfortable with, like, right or wrong because, like, there's a human arbitrator of it, and, like, human thinking could, for example, be potentially flawed.

[01:13:14] Eldar: Right? But there is- Yeah, and I think that... Yeah no, his point to it is that there's so many variables out there- 

[01:13:18] Toliy: Yeah ... 

[01:13:18] Eldar: to be able to encompass and, and understand all those things, to be definite about, like, that's right or that's wrong, or that's good or that's bad- 

[01:13:25] Toliy: Yeah, 

[01:13:25] Eldar: could create problems, right? ... it's hard to do.

[01:13:28] And it could create problems, 

[01:13:29] Toliy: yeah. 

[01:13:29] Eldar: And, and- Which is, which I agree with. Yeah. Yeah. But- He's careful with u- those u- and, and that's rightfully so. It's, I think it's very wise. 

[01:13:34] Toliy: Yeah. But could there be a f- like, for example, like, a, uh, truth that we're just choosing to like, you know, be in tune with? And, and it lives outside of us, and it's not something that, like, we're deciding whether it's right or wrong, that, like, it just is, for example?

[01:13:50] David Cooley: Yeah. 

[01:13:51] Eldar: I think that he's saying that that's exactly what he's trying to put his chips on. 

[01:13:54] Toliy: Oh, okay. 

[01:13:54] David Cooley: Well, I would say that that's not something that then is knowable and consignable to a symbol. Like, all language is symbolic, and therefore reductive. Like, any way... if you're trying to express the totality of reality symbolically you're screwed.

[01:14:10] Eldar: Yeah, you're gonna miss the mark. 

[01:14:11] David Cooley: You- 

[01:14:12] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:14:12] David Cooley: it's always gonna be partial. It's always gonna be incomplete. Yeah. You can't describe totality with an impartial mapping system. You could- you're only talking about maps. And I think there's better and worse maps of reality, right? So we could argue the sort of viability or the accuracy or the precision or capacity of a map to manage complexity, but we're not gonna- Mm-hmm

[01:14:36] we're not talking about ultimate reality. I don't think humans can do that. 

[01:14:41] Toliy: So, so, so, so more as just, like, the importance of what of, like, what people want and how they want to live versus what's right and wrong? 

[01:14:49] David Cooley: Yeah, absolutely, especially when you're talking relationally. Because again, if you're really tuned into the impact of your relationships and their value on your life, you're gonna be concerned, right?

[01:15:01] That people are telling you, "Oh, the way that you're treating me is unacceptable. I'm not going to stay in relationship to you if you keep acting this way." If that's not enough for you, then the relationship probably won't survive. 

[01:15:14] Toliy: Now question. Let's say someone tells you, like, the you know, maybe an outcome they want or how they wanna go about things or, or to do something, right?

[01:15:23] Some- sometimes what people want maybe they're not thinking a few s- steps ahead, right? Do you view that as like, "Hey, that's okay that they're not thinking about it now, and I'm just going to kind of help them may- maybe get to what they're looking for now"? Or do you feel that, like, there is a, uh, either a need or, like, that there is value in, for example- Um, like, do you put warning signs up, or do you just kind of allow the person to, to then fail, come back, and be able to get help may- maybe when, uh- When the time is right.

[01:15:54] Yeah. 

[01:15:54] David Cooley: No, I really like that question. You know, what I'm hearing in that question is you're wondering, does a person's limited capacity to see sort of the things that I'm trying to allude to or help them get to or advocate for are those limits then something that I'm trying to make explicit and invite them to see and move beyond, or am I letting them stay where they are and then hoping that as capacity grows, we're gonna open up more opportunities for them to expand their awareness?

[01:16:28] Is that what you're saying? 

[01:16:30] Toliy: Well, well, well I'm not sure if, like, if you need to do any kind of hoping or whether, like, you could just say... or whether you could just be accepting of people's, for example, like, uh, capacities and, and wishes, right? But yeah, m- like, um, yeah, I just view that, that maybe, like, someone could be desiring something, but they're not thinking those.

[01:16:47] Again, they don't have yet the ability to see those two, three, four, 10, 20 steps ahead that you have the ability, for example, in that situation to, to see. Like, how do you handle that, you know? 

[01:16:58] David Cooley: Yeah, I guess it, it would really depend on the situation. You know, I, I think if someone was sort of setting themselves up for what potentially would be, I don't know, failure or a frustration of what their stated goal is, then I would say, "You know, this is my concern.

[01:17:13] My concern is that, right, your strategy is not going to get you to your goal." So I might be explicit in that sense if I'm seeing that there's sort of a way that they're imagining getting there that's going to become self-frustrating. But sometimes it is import- You have to just respect people's capacity where it is, and you can't get them past that, and you just have to let that be.

[01:17:39] And that's been a huge lesson for me in my work professionally, is just letting people take the journey that they're taking. 

[01:17:45] Toliy: Yeah, because it's it, it might be where, like, they have to go... they have to, like, go up, and then eventually still have the ability to go back down to then learn more potentially on that second, third, fourth, you know, 10th, 20th round of going up and down, and then being able to maybe go, go deeper or talk about more things over time.

[01:18:04] David Cooley: Totally. I've been amazed by people's journey. I mean, that's one thing about this work is just I'm, I'm never not surprised by people. People just amaze the shit out of me over and over again with this work, and every journey is so different. It's so wild, and I love that. It keeps me on my toes.

[01:18:21] You know, some people, like- What- You can't predict what's gonna be the thing that's actually going to create some kind of breakthrough. 

[01:18:30] Eldar: What's the longest client that you have, David? That you've been working with? 

[01:18:33] David Cooley: Mm, that's a good question. I've got clients that I've been seeing for five, six years.

[01:18:40] Eldar: Wow. Mm. 

[01:18:40] David Cooley: Those are long. 

[01:18:41] Katherine: I, I- 

[01:18:43] Eldar: Yeah, I, I, no, I... It's, it's a good, it's a good thing. At my, at my- You know, I'm glad that 

[01:18:46] Katherine: you say that ... most recent session with, with my therapist- Uh-huh ... she, she told me, she's like, "Hey, it's, you know, it's been, I've known you for five years." And I 

[01:18:52] Eldar: thought- Yeah ... "

[01:18:52] Katherine: Wow." I couldn't believe it.

[01:18:54] Eldar: And I think those are probably the, the most, like, rewarding type of relationships, right, that you build. Yeah. Because you see the actual- Mm-hmm ... transformation. You know- Yeah ... in a session or two, like, you're not- She's told me- ... gonna get anywhere. A couple of months, whatever, but years, right? Yeah. Half a decade.

[01:19:08] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:19:08] Eldar: You can actually see where we came from, who you were, and now that that new self that we, you know, he's been promoting- Mm-hmm ... he's been cultivating is now here. And now you both can kind of rejoice and reflect- Yeah, that's, that's very nice ... on that journey, and that's, that's awesome. 

[01:19:20] Toliy: Yeah. Um, um, I'm wondering, Da- David, do, do you feel that, like, in this process, that like...

[01:19:26] So I definitely un- understand, I think now what you're saying about, like, hey, it, it's not about, like, what's right or wrong. It's about, like, what you want and how you wanna feel and how you want to live life. But do you think it is important for your clients or, for example, these, these people to realize that, like, what's happening is almost like a, a, like a mental illness here?

[01:19:49] That like there actually is, um, like- A culprit ... like... yeah. Yeah, like i- is it important for them to, to understand that? Or do you think it's, uh, it's just like not, not focused on like what happened or where it came from or like what it is, but just on what, on, on what they desire, I guess?

[01:20:04] David Cooley: That's a really good question. And, you know, it, that really exposes the, the scope, some of the limits of the scope of my practice 'cause I'm really focused on working with conflict, right? Specifically, and helping people undo conflict. And so there's therapeutic modalities that I don't have access to, that I don't apply, and there are cases where I've had to refer clients to other practitioners because they needed a level of care that I couldn't provide.

[01:20:34] And so you could classify those as mental illnesses, right? I would classify them as manifestations of just intense trauma. So I'm not in the business of diagnosing people. I'm not gonna ever give someone a diagnosis of a mental illness. I'm gonna say, "You need a help that I can't give you." 

[01:20:53] Toliy: I'm more ca- categorizing it as, as like all of these things that maybe, like, we were taught or maybe raised in proper ways or, like, these ways that, like, our, our parents, like, taught us to like like, um, not knowingly, of course, right?

[01:21:07] They kind of created these me- mental illnesses, for ex- for example, like, like shame. I almost view shame as like it is like a form of mental illness, right? Like, um- where it's like, um,

[01:21:19] Katherine: Might be limiting, you know? 

[01:21:20] Toliy: Well, y- yeah- Like, I feel limiting ... but e- even to me, like even a limiting belief- Well, if 

[01:21:24] Eldar: you de- if you define the mental illness, right?

[01:21:25] Yeah. If it's y- your mental is ill, it's like it's at the moment it's a little bit sick. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, like it's not a- And c- it can get over it, it can get over anxiety, it can get over shame- Yes ... and you can move on. At that moment you're just sick. Yeah, mentally ill- Yeah ... for the moment.

[01:21:36] But- 

[01:21:36] Toliy: Yes, for the, for the moment. That, that like you're- It's important 

[01:21:38] Eldar: to state that. 

[01:21:39] Toliy: Yeah. Where like you're not able to be in tune with like the truth, or you're not able to understand how things, I guess, are, right? 

[01:21:46] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:21:46] Toliy: Like my... Yeah, like that, that, that's what I'm trying to figure out is like is it important for these for these people to understand that or do you think it's not im-

[01:21:53] Eldar: like important?

[01:21:54] But why, why do you, why are you so like attached to this? Like, for them to unders- Do, do you feel like they, it's important for them to actually know what's going on with them? Well, well, well, no- Because Dav- I think David is describing the same thing. He's just saying it- Yeah ... in a different way. Almost- Like, "Hey, look, you're going through experience."

[01:22:05] David Cooley: I think, I think as you, as you're talking I'm actually getting a sense of kind of where this question is really important actually. And I can say that for some people I've seen that diagnosis of mental illness is really important and supportive. Like, I've had people who have worked with me for years, and they didn't start with this mental illness diagnosis, but they've been dealing with really, really hard patterns.

[01:22:32] And then they get the diagnosis, and it's a relief. They're like, "Oh my God, now this makes sense. Oh, this has been ADHD all along. Now I've got my somewhere to hang my hat, and I've got something, a structure, a way of relating to these patterns that feels empowering." So for them, it actually is really important, even though I wasn't gonna give them that diagnosis.

[01:22:51] That wasn't gonna come from me. It came from so- a different practitioner, or their own research. They were researching, saying, "Could this be it?" And I would say, "If it fits and it's helping, great. 

[01:23:02] Mike: Lean into 

[01:23:02] David Cooley: it." For other people, a mental illness diagnosis is a condemnation, and actually could be a harbinger of shame, right?

[01:23:12] For, it's a prison. So for me, it's not important whether or not we should say mental, we wanna call this mental illness, and that's a good thing or a bad thing. It depends on the individual. And so I think that's another way in which I've been surprised by people, where people say, "Oh, I got this diagnosis, and it was awesome, and it changed everything.

[01:23:30] And now I feel like I've got more agency and choice because I know what's actually happening, whereas before it was just this nebulous experience that was always confusing." So it really depends, but I think that's actually a really good question. For some it's important. For others it's not. And even it's- 

[01:23:47] Eldar: But the way but the way you're posing it, Toliy- Yeah

[01:23:49] it's, it's almost like you have the, an attachment towards calling it for that. Like, why do you- Yeah. Well- ... why do you 

[01:23:56] Toliy: feel like that's important? Yeah, it almost sounds like that, yeah. Yeah, I'm asking because for example, for, for at least me, right, I definitely don't have everything figured out. Mm-hmm.

[01:24:02] I definitely don't, right? And I also know that like now I have a much better sen- sense of these things is that like if I am struggling with something- I still I still always have, like, a, uh, relenting belief that there is another way. 

[01:24:15] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:24:15] Toliy: And that there, and that, like, the I almost to some degree know that I'm ill.

[01:24:20] Right? For 

[01:24:20] Eldar: now. 

[01:24:20] Toliy: For now. Yeah. Right? And yeah, as I've grown older and, like, better at things and, like, developed, I have a better sense of that and like, yeah, that word for now it becomes more and more, like, um, um, like- Empowering? Yeah, like empowering and, like, real in my life. Okay. Right? 

[01:24:38] Eldar: Okay.

[01:24:38] Toliy: So that, like, I'm okay with saying that, like, hey, like, this what's happening in, in my life is, Yeah, I don't know if the word to use here is, like, wrong or, like, my, like, frame of thinking, I guess, is not productive for myself, right? If we wanna s- s- the, i- if, if- Yeah ... if, if we say it that way.

[01:24:54] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:24:54] Toliy: You know? Yeah. But I, like, I at least view it for myself is that, like, I feel like it's important to acknowledge that. 

[01:25:01] Um- 

[01:25:02] Eldar: In order to then move forward. 

[01:25:03] Toliy: Yeah, and- Got it ... yeah, yeah, in order to then not only move forward, but you almost need to have some kind of, like- 

[01:25:09] Eldar: Baseline

[01:25:09] Toliy: light at the end of, like, of the tunnel- Mm-hmm ... before you even reach the light. But I feel like part of you gets that light by just acknowledging that there is- Something wrong ... a light. Name- Yeah, by acknowledging that there is- 

[01:25:20] Katherine: Name it to tame it. I, I heard a long time ago. Well, yeah. 

[01:25:23] Eldar: Yeah, yeah, like that.

[01:25:24] And I think David explained that, that some people need this. So, like, you're one of those people- Right, exactly ... that actually need this- He just explained that ... and get comfort in that- Mm-hmm ... uh, i- like, establishing 

[01:25:32] Toliy: that. Like, I'm okay, I'm okay with saying that, like, hey, like, what I'm going through, it is an illness and I am sick, and that's okay.

[01:25:38] But there are, but there is, But I also believe at the same time that there are- Ways ... remedies for this and there are- Yeah ... ways around it. Yeah. But I, but I do find value in acknowledging that and not that- Mm-hmm ... I just feel that, that, like, maybe if you don't acknowledge it, it if you don't acknowledge it that way, I think that you, that a lot of people tend to shade towards normalizing it, actually, and saying that, like, like- 

[01:26:01] Eldar: Oh, 

[01:26:01] Toliy: okay

[01:26:01] like, for example, like- 

[01:26:03] Eldar: Okay ... 

[01:26:03] Toliy: my dad does this all the time. My dad normalizes a life that he's not happy with or things that he's not happy with, and he'll always use those types of words of, like, it just is this way," or, "It's supposed to be this way," or, like, he doesn't um, he, he won't acknowledge it for what it is.

[01:26:18] And, like, in my opinion, it is a form in that moment, it is he's actually sick. And I feel like for me it's important to actually know that you're sick to then work on your ill- illness, I guess. 

[01:26:30] David Cooley: Yeah, but let me ask you a question about that. 

[01:26:32] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:26:33] David Cooley: What is it that's going to invite him to start engaging in a process of change?

[01:26:42] Eldar: Regardless, you have to raise awareness 

[01:26:43] Toliy: somehow Yeah, yeah, I think that, like, you know, at least my strategy at times is that, like, there... And I, and I've used a number of strategies. My, my strategies have been, like when it comes to, like, uh, like trying to be for- forceful in my actions, which, which of course was wrong, right?

[01:27:00] But, you know, my, my strategy more now is that, like, if I'm asked or if I'm like yeah, like try not, not to teach if not asked, right? Or try to teach when asked, when invited to. And if I'm invited and then I'm meant... i'm met with, like, resistance, for example, or like, you know, a person that doesn't wanna continue the conversation in that way, right?

[01:27:21] Um, then, then I then I can also back off and the person's like, "Hey, act- actually no, just like fuck off." Well- You know? I'm 

[01:27:26] David Cooley: talking 

[01:27:27] Toliy: specifically 

[01:27:27] David Cooley: about your dad, though. Like, in terms of strategy- Yeah ... with your dad do you create change for him? Like, do you inspire or motivate him to change based on this philosophy that you have, or this idea that you have that we should be able to, or we should be labeling patterns as mental illness?

[01:27:48] Toliy: So, so, so no, like I, I don't think that I so much engage in that kind of like, like thing with him. I I'm more of like, I would be more forceful in, in, in my nature with, with him before, but now I'm more of like he I, I will challenge him when, when I can, where I feel like it's appropriate.

[01:28:07] But I'm also like I'm also completely fine w- where if he wants to choose to continue to live, like, in, in ignorance too. Like, I'm, I'm more ac- I was not accepting at all of any of these kinds of things before, and I'm more accepting of them now if the person chooses to do that. Or if they choose for change, if they choose to ask questions, if they choose to do that kind of stuff, I will also be there every step of the way for, for that too.

[01:28:32] David Cooley: Right. And so that's exactly what I'm saying, is if there's disposition, if there's willingness and capacity, we've got room to move. We've got something to do. We've got a process now that we can enter into. But if there's not, then there's n- there's nowhere to go. There's no traction to get. And so again, I think the invitation that I'm making to you is to just be careful about the generalization.

[01:28:55] If you're saying that mental illness and identifying that is motivating and helpful for you, awesome. Lean into it. Use it. I would just, again, caution you to say and broadcast that that's gonna be true for everybody in every situation. 

[01:29:13] Eldar: And I'm gonna second that, and I'm gonna mention too, um, I'm gonna tell David Your nickname.

[01:29:20] You're the meanest guy in the group. You know? So yeah, see, he's, he's known to, to generalize a lot of this stuff, and he, he likes to cut to the chase a lot of times. And yes, a lot of times it does fall on deaf ears, and a lot of times he can be a little bit hurtful. But he has been working on that, for sure, David.

[01:29:36] Yes. So, so we've been cautioning him for, for a while. 

[01:29:38] Toliy: Yeah it, and I, and I'm- ... not saying that, like, everyone obviously should. Um, my, my question, like, wa- was more of, like, is it important to do so? For some, 

[01:29:47] Eldar: for some, maybe. Which, 

[01:29:48] Toliy: which I... Which... Well, well, no not for some. I'm saying that, that, like, whether it's early on for somebody that has more capacity, or it's later on once they develop.

[01:29:55] And I'm, I'm just wondering, in general, is it important to label it, to, to, like, label those types of things in those type of ways to kind of almost get that, that, that clarity, and then that kind of like, when you run into these kinds of things in the future, you kind of already say, like, "Oh, okay." You have a reference point.

[01:30:11] Yeah, like, I remember, like, this kinda stuff hurts. It's not pleasant. I don't like it, and I wanna live differently. But it's almost like a, uh, yeah, it becomes more of like a, a, uh, friend rather than, like, a complete foe because you've acknowledged it already and you already know what it is, you know?

[01:30:27] David Cooley: Yeah, so let me ask you a question. Like, when you say in general, what are you trying to do? What's the value of saying in general? What are you... what's the str- 

[01:30:36] Eldar: Shortcut. 

[01:30:37] David Cooley: Yeah, but I wanna hear what he says. What, 

[01:30:40] Toliy: what, what 

[01:30:40] Eldar: do you mean- 

[01:30:41] Toliy: He's gonna ask 

[01:30:41] Eldar: you ... in 

[01:30:42] Toliy: general? Like, when- 

[01:30:43] Eldar: When you use the word in general- 

[01:30:44] David Cooley: You just said a moment ago where you were explaining stuff- Yeah

[01:30:46] in general, this is- Okay ... a thing that I think is important, right? Like- 

[01:30:54] Toliy: Well, yeah, I'm, I'm trying to figure out whether whe- whether doing that for the mass public, I guess, for, for general pop is important or not, right? Whe- whe- whether, like, yeah, whe- whether everyone going through these types of things, if it's important for them to label them and acknowledge them in those type of ways, or if it's just something that, um, isn't important or doesn't have that kind of value.

[01:31:18] David Cooley: Yeah, let me ask you this. Is it challenging or unsettling or concerning? Is there any resistance within you to saying for some people it works, for some it doesn't, and it's impossible to say one size fits all with something like this? 

[01:31:36] Toliy: No. No, um, I'm honest. No, I don't think that, that it's, it, it's difficult to, um, No, I, I wouldn't say difficult to, to say that but for me, like- You always resist this challenge. 

[01:31:46] Katherine: I, I, I always- It almost feels like he's resisting right now ... no, no, no, no, no. He's 

[01:31:49] Toliy: always resisting this shit. There's 

[01:31:50] Katherine: a but.

[01:31:50] David, you gotta 

[01:31:50] Toliy: resist. 

[01:31:51] Katherine: Yeah. There was a but. 

[01:31:51] Toliy: I, I like, I, I, I like fundamental truth a lot, right? Why? And I, I like- Wait, what do they 

[01:31:56] Eldar: do for 

[01:31:56] Toliy: you? They bring me a sense of peace 

[01:32:03] Eldar: She likes gravity. 

[01:32:04] Toliy: Right? Because I, yeah, I like, yeah, I, yeah, I like when, like, um- 

[01:32:07] Eldar: When I throw this pen, it goes down ... 100%, 

[01:32:09] Katherine: I agree with that.

[01:32:09] Wait, let, let, no, wait. Let him- Yeah ... let him finish. 

[01:32:11] Toliy: Yeah. Like, I, I, I like tho- I like the concept of fundamental truths because it's it's, again, it's something, like, without opinion. It's something without it, it just forever exists in, in time, right? And to me, it's like when Socrates was speaking, you know, a l- a long time ago, right, and saying particular things- Mm-hmm

[01:32:30] the, the things that he was saying back then you know, some people obviously, like, internalize and value it, but a lot of people just you know, tell him to fuck off and leave them alone, and, like, stop bothering them. But I feel like a lot of his words and concepts and his challenging behavior is, like, it's an inter- it, it's a, uh, eternal concept that whether we wanna tune into it or maybe people a thousand years from now or maybe people on Mars, people will always forever tune into those words and those, those concept because they live forever.

[01:33:02] Sure. Because I feel like they're ingrained in fundamental truth outside of us. 

[01:33:05] David Cooley: Right, so what I'm hearing though is it creates a sense of peace. I'm gonna extrapolate, but you tell me if I overstep the mark when I'm reflecting back to what I'm imagining is true for you based on what you s- 

[01:33:17] Toliy: Yeah ... 

[01:33:17] David Cooley: it gives me a sense of peace, safety, control, grounded-ness.

[01:33:22] Do those all feel true? 

[01:33:24] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:33:24] David Cooley: Awesome. So if that's the case, then what I'm hearing is this concept regulates my nervous system, it helps me settle, it makes me feel okay in a world that can often be unsettling and destabilizing. I want you to have that. I want that to be accessible for you. How does that feel to hear me validate your lived experience, right?

[01:33:49] Toliy: How- Um, yeah, I guess I, like, yeah, it'd be nice I guess if people can can, can benefit from that a- and, and, like, uh, tune into it. I'm just more curious i- if, like, if there, uh, maybe there isn't, then. If, if there isn't, like, a, uh, a- Well, let- ... a 100% process that people need to follow- 

[01:34:12] David Cooley: Well, a-

[01:34:12] Toliy: you know? 

[01:34:13] David Cooley: Again, stay with, stay with the process that I'm inviting 

[01:34:15] Toliy: you to. 

[01:34:16] David Cooley: Yeah. Like, I'm really curious of what it's like to hear me just- 

[01:34:20] Toliy: Yeah ... 

[01:34:20] David Cooley: understand what this concept does for you, how it serves you. Like, does that feel good? Does it feel good to h- sort of have that reflection, to have someone understand why these general concepts are important to you?

[01:34:35] Does it feel good? 

[01:34:37] Toliy: I would say yeah, it definitely feels better to be understood than not understood, if that's what you're asking. Excellent. 

[01:34:42] David Cooley: So- Yeah ... consider my job- Someone's coming to me and they're looking to feel safe and seen, right? Safe- Yeah ... through being seen. So if they're telling me that the concept of generality or certainty is oppressive, that universal truths actually function like a prison for them and inhibit their sense of safety, feeling grounded, feeling connected to themselves- 

[01:35:09] Eldar: Okay

[01:35:10] David Cooley: what, what am I gonna do? 

[01:35:13] Eldar: Say it's impossible. 

[01:35:16] Toliy: So if, if, if they're, if you're saying that, like, if you have someone speaking to you and telling you that what I'm saying- The opposite ... what I'm saying is gold is actually, like, um- Poison. 

[01:35:26] Katherine: The opposite. Basically 

[01:35:27] Eldar: the opposite of 

[01:35:28] Toliy: what you're saying.

[01:35:28] The opposite. Poison, yeah. Poi- 

[01:35:30] Eldar: poison. Like, what is 

[01:35:31] Toliy: he supposed to do? Yeah, I would say that they, they, they should, um, they should commit to 10 years of working with you, otherwise- It's over for them ... they, they... Yeah, it's over for them. 

[01:35:38] David Cooley: Right. What I would, what I would say is both are valid. Both are valid.

[01:35:45] Both are- 

[01:35:46] Eldar: But which one is true? 

[01:35:47] David Cooley: Neither. 

[01:35:47] Eldar: Both can s- But he's not talking about, like- Both can be s- both can be subjectively- ... the truth ... subjectively true for that person, right? That person can definitely have those feelings, for sure. Right. 

[01:35:55] David Cooley: And s- 

[01:35:55] Eldar: Right? And he can have those feelings, for sure Here 

[01:35:57] Katherine: we go back to, like, the right and wrong, though.

[01:35:59] Eldar: Well, there you go. That's- 

[01:36:00] David Cooley: Exactly. And the thing that I'm- Yeah ... interested in is not right or wrong- Yes ... I'm interested in that person having access to something that helps them feel safe, grounded, secure, connected to themselves. Because if they are, they're probably going to then behave from a place that's more relational than adversarial.

[01:36:20] Eldar: So, so, so then- Mm ... that would mean that, like, the people that you work- Well, well, not necessarily. Hold on one second. Yeah. Not necessarily, David. Not if they hear these concepts outside, right, uh, o- of, of your, your session, right? Like, because you again invited them into that space and you were able to be accepting does not mean that the world will.

[01:36:39] David Cooley: But what does a person, how does a person behave when they self-accept? 

[01:36:45] Eldar: Well, the problem with self-accepting something that's not necessarily true can be detrimental because then it can become even crazier outside in the world. Because when they s- hear a to- a, a person like Tolley speak very bluntly, but his intentions are correct, right?

[01:36:59] They're gonna be like, "What an asshole. What is he talking about?" 

[01:37:02] David Cooley: So how would they get to the point where they're actually in any kind of dialogue? 'Cause you're in a relationship with him and you understand him. How did you get there? 

[01:37:11] Eldar: Over time. Yeah, getting to know one another. 

[01:37:13] David Cooley: Right. So what's going to facilitate you all being able to do that process of getting to know each other?

[01:37:20] Eldar: The, I agree with the discussions, but the thing is, I'm not sure if those people that are in the sessions, right, with you are necessarily having those same discussions with the world. 

[01:37:28] David Cooley: But what I'm saying is, what I find is that when people start to self-accept, when people start to- 

[01:37:35] Eldar: You say that just translates over to the world?

[01:37:37] David Cooley: Not always, and not automatically. There's no guarantee. Okay. But what I'm seeing is- Yeah ... that when people are in a sense of harmony and alignment with their own sense of values, their way of behaving in the world is different. Versus I'm not talking about- Yeah ... someone who's totally deluded and just parts driven and completely run by their trauma response.

[01:37:59] That's not the same 

[01:38:00] Mike: thing. Yeah. 

[01:38:01] David Cooley: I'm not saying that someone who thinks that they're a god or shouldn't have to have any accountability, but because they feel right with themselves being egocentric, is going to go into the world and bring more happiness and peace. That's not what I'm 

[01:38:18] Katherine: saying. Mm-hmm. 

[01:38:18] David Cooley: Right?

[01:38:18] We have to really contextualize the work that I'm doing. I'm talking about people who are in a context where they want to work on and repair their relationships. I think part of the danger that we're towing here is you're trying to go big and sort of apply my work to world problems, and I'm saying it's smaller than that.

[01:38:39] My work is really fits inside a very particular context, and if you try to extrapolate it too much, you're going to lose the meaning of what I'm saying. 

[01:38:50] Eldar: Yeah, probably so, yeah. Getting back to your work, shame. W- Do you fi- uh, how did you get yourself into working with shame particularly? Did you find this to be the one of the biggest problems, or is it just something that you went through and that you found expertise in?

[01:39:06] Let's get back to that. 

[01:39:07] David Cooley: Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I th- I've seen it as the root. As I've done conflict work over and over again- Mm-hmm ... the question that keeps coming back to me is, why do people get stuck in conflict? Why is it so prevalent? Why is it so hard for people to get out of? What are some of the core things that keep people stuck in patterns that just loop over and over again?

[01:39:28] And so through that question, which has kept me up at night for years, started to realize- Hmm ... this is about shame. This is happening actually on an internal level. There's something happening internal for individuals that's making their external interpersonal conflict harder. What is it? And then I get closer and closer to it, and again, my colleague and I were sort of on the similar track, but in different...

[01:39:51] Hitting it from different vectors. We both started to realize, like, wait a minute, this is like, so much of what we're dealing with is being driven by unprocessed and unrecognized shame. 

[01:40:03] Eldar: That's very interesting. 

[01:40:04] We find that that a lot of times, uh, we're dealing with arrogance and pride and all the other stuff.

[01:40:08] Th- he de- deduced it as shame. Yeah, yeah. And, and, and you know what? I, I purposely didn't wanna study or do anything, uh, before this podcast on shame, but we should definitely, you know, go a little bit deeper maybe on, i- in our own little discussions to try to go a little bit deeper to see whether or not- Mm-hmm

[01:40:23] that's the culprit of some of the stuff. Yeah, b- Yeah, because it's, it's interesting that they- It's very interesting ... they, they deduced that, and how are they looking at it. Maybe we have to read up on it a little 

[01:40:31] Toliy: bit. Yeah, yeah. It, yeah, I agree with that, too, and yeah I feel at least, uh, David, like I'm, um, I agree with Aldar is that like, yeah, we're, we're always talking about ego, pride, arrogance as like the, uh, prob- probably that kind of triangle, right?

[01:40:46] Of like- And then fear ... 

[01:40:48] Eldar: but 

[01:40:48] Toliy: for... Yeah. Fear, yeah. Fear may, may, may, maybe it's a square. Of, of like, of like warriors that you have that you think are on your team but they're not on your team, right? Because I feel like they're kind of almost like gatekeeping this like good life out there that you don't even realize, but you're also employing them.

[01:41:04] So they're on your payroll, and they're actually like screwing over your internal business, and we're always trying to challenge those beliefs and challenge those, the, yeah, that, that mindset and challenge that whole way of thinking. And that then may- maybe I think when tho- tho... when we're able to kind of send those, those like warriors home and like trick them into thinking that like, hey, like the shift is over, then you can have a conversation with like a person without those ki- with- without those variables in place.

[01:41:33] But yeah, yeah, yeah, it'd be 

[01:41:34] Eldar: interesting. But I think we're going towards the same thing, trying to fi- figure out the self that we're really talking about that's in us, the soul maybe, right? 

[01:41:40] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:41:41] Eldar: That is actually clean- Yeah, the goodness that's in us ... pure, the goodness that's in us- Yeah ... that we can then bring out somehow.

[01:41:45] And we do it through our challenging ways and, and David and his colleague Jessica Fern- Yeah ... who's not who was supposed to be here actually, but she had some kind of an emergency. Mm. Yeah. So, uh, yeah, they, this is the work and this, they're like, I, you know, I mean, they dive deep in- into it and even wrote a book on it, so 

[01:42:00] Toliy: yeah.

[01:42:00] Yeah. What, one, one thing is I- Yeah, very interesting ... I, I don't even know if it's like a, uh, if it's even worth discussing, but I feel like it's an interesting thing because I feel like it seems like a lot of this, again, it comes from like our parents and like childhood, like- Trauma, yeah. Yeah ... yeah, childhood trauma, and these beliefs that we create of as to how things are and how things are supposed to be.

[01:42:20] I'm wondering, 

[01:42:21] Eldar: Mm-hmm ... 

[01:42:21] Toliy: has anybody ever like, talked about in general as to like why are humans when they're, like when they're birthed into this world, why are they not e- equipped from the get-go to be able to, I, I guess- 

[01:42:32] Eldar: But again, she has a general statement. Not everyone is like this. 

[01:42:35] Toliy: Well, no, fine.

[01:42:36] But I, I, I, I still think the vas- the vast majority are. The general. Yeah. You like the general. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I, I, I don't care if it's an arrogant take. 

[01:42:43] Katherine: Did you, did you take a- I, I think- Did he take a poll though? Like how, how are we- 

[01:42:46] Toliy: Yeah, no ... measuring this? I, I, I, I don't care if it's an arrogant take. I feel like- Whether they know it or not yet, I feel like the vast majority of people vast majority of people suffer from these things.

[01:42:56] Well- Some know it- There's a hunch ... some don't. You know, I have a 

[01:42:58] David Cooley: hunch. The thing then is to your pantheon, right? You have the ego. 

[01:43:01] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:43:02] David Cooley: You've got pride, arrogance, fear, right? So- Yeah ... let's add the inner critic, let's add shame, let's add the escapers, right? So let's- 

[01:43:10] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:43:10] David Cooley: expand the pantheon and give people more understanding of the complex inner world.

[01:43:15] We're just expanding the map. So I think- Yeah ... I think there's a way in which these things can integrate and work together. 

[01:43:24] Mike: Yeah. And 

[01:43:24] Eldar: I don't think that it's possible to get to a place that you're talking about, Tony, a good place, let's just say, without touching all those. It's impossible. 100%. 

[01:43:31] Toliy: Yeah.

[01:43:31] Katherine: Yeah, 

[01:43:32] Toliy: definitely. 100%. But, but to me, it's still, it's still crazy how mankind, w- is still not from like, it, from, from right right away from being put into the, this world, that the tools are not in place to, to protect ourselves from these long-term sufferings that are being 

[01:43:48] Eldar: created, right?

[01:43:48] Yeah, but you, you just named Socrates, right? He's helping you out. So what's your 

[01:43:51] David Cooley: problem? What if we did, though? I mean, what if we did? Yeah. If you start to look at the, the older cultures, traditional cultures, indigenous cultures, there's a lot of evidence that they actually got along way better than we did, and then were highly evolved in terms of morality and ethics in ways that would embarrass us.

[01:44:09] Like, and they had ways of really creating deep, secure attachment with the members of their community. The restorative justice, the field that I was in for years that was the precursor to the work I'm doing now, came from indigenous practices, right? And it's the belief that no person is disposable, and so we have to find a way to resolve conflict because every member of the community matters.

[01:44:34] But when your community becomes so big and it turns into a civilization and people can become cast away like garbage, you don't have to resolve conflict in the same way. You can just go lock 'em up. You can toss 'em out, right? And you don't have to work on attachment in the way that small social units did.

[01:44:52] So I, I think it's a, it's potentially a mistake to say it's just always been fraught. I think it's gone up and down and changed, and we've had better sort of eras of more integrated, more humane society and social structures, and now we're in kind of a darker phase. 

[01:45:12] Toliy: May may be. Do you guys agree? But, but I'm also yeah.

[01:45:15] I- I'm also, like a, a, uh, ever skeptic that, like, uh, um, that, that like, that's actually true that like, that like, you know, society was in that kind of way, or maybe there are tr- like, like for, for me, I'm definitely a skeptic as to like, like, um, the like that, like people were actually like that kind of way, or like they actually live in that kind of way and like- l- like what David was describing, like I, I would need like a, a, a, a, a- You need concrete, 

[01:45:43] Eldar: concrete evidence

[01:45:44] Toliy: no, I would need a trusted auditor- 

[01:45:45] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:45:46] Toliy: you know? To go- Why? To go... Well, well- How come? ... the example is this, is that like, I mean, th- th- this is gonna be a very silly example, David, but, but to, to me at least it hit it home, right? You know, we play basketball, right? And we'll go to a gym where the people in that gym, they think they're hot shit and they think they're, they're good at basketball, you know?

[01:46:05] And then we go in there- 

[01:46:07] ... 

[01:46:07] Toliy: And we own them, right? But they were convinced that like, or maybe they said like, "Hey, those people have it figured out," right? Or like, "Those people know what's going on," or like, "They do things the right way," or like, yeah, like you, you also see this in like y- in like the yoga community, right?

[01:46:20] Or like the, uh, the meditation community where like they can label certain things or they use certain words and then you go examine and you go see how they act and it's not in alignment with I guess like what, what maybe someone else de- definitions might be, right? 

[01:46:35] Eldar: Yeah, yeah. But then- Like you could say that

[01:46:36] everybody can be- Yeah, like- ... 

[01:46:37] Toliy: under their own 

[01:46:37] Eldar: impression. 

[01:46:38] Toliy: Yeah. Like you know, and, and c- and like culturally for e- for example like our own families would, would like, you know, especially when we were younger, they would talk about other families, right? They're like, "Hey, look how good that family has it.

[01:46:50] Like look at them. Like they got this, they have that. Like they're good to each other." But then the actual like inner working of their family is like they might be pieces of shit to each other, but it's just like a judgment call, right? That like our family's making on them because of maybe their professions, right?

[01:47:05] Or maybe how they act when they're in front of guests, right? Yeah, exactly. But we don't know how they actually are. But you would have to go 

[01:47:10] Eldar: and study this though. 

[01:47:10] Toliy: Correct. Yeah. Correct. Like I mean, that's really hard to gauge. 

[01:47:12] Katherine: Yes. 

[01:47:12] Toliy: Cor- correct. Yes. Yeah. That, that, that's why I'm skeptical of it, you know?

[01:47:16] Well, 

[01:47:16] David Cooley: here's a book that if you're interested to look at evidence that is supporting the sort of the hypothesis that I'm putting forward. It's called The World Until Yesterday. 

[01:47:28] Katherine: The World Until Yesterday.

[01:47:29] Eldar: There's no book you can recommend here to convince Toliy otherwise. But with, with 

[01:47:33] Katherine: evidence 

[01:47:33] Eldar: to- 

[01:47:33] Katherine: Toliy's 

[01:47:35] Eldar: v- no, Toliy's very close-minded.

[01:47:37] He doesn't believe any evidence. No, 

[01:47:38] Katherine: I'm not 

[01:47:38] Eldar: close-minded. 

[01:47:39] Katherine: Yo. Come on. 

[01:47:39] Eldar: Not 

[01:47:40] David Cooley: to- You sound 

[01:47:40] Eldar: a little 

[01:47:41] David Cooley: close-minded ... to offer a perspective that maybe is compelling or interesting to you. Yeah. It's just different, you know? And this is from a guy, it's... what's his last name? I'm looking at my bookshelf. It's, uh, Jared Diamond is the author and he spent most of his life living with the aboriginals of New Guinea, and so all of his research is based on very personal experience.

[01:48:08] And so it's fascinating. It's a fascinating account of how that society has been, what's important to it, and what it's losing as it gets exposed to modernity, right? Contemporary society and as it changes. What's been lost? What's been important to gain, but what's been lost? And what's been lost according to him is social networks, ethics and morals, connection to nature- Connection to self.

[01:48:34] Things that are very sort of soft sciences in our world, right? But for them are just fundamental and unquestioned. So I would just take a look. 

[01:48:46] Eldar: Okay. Mike, did you wanna say something? I think Mike's on the line here. Yes, Mike was 

[01:48:48] Mike: trying to- Yeah. I wanted to ask a question. And I wanna make- 

[01:48:51] Eldar: Hopefully it's not a general one, 'cause Toliy asked all the general ones.

[01:48:54] Mike: Yes. No, I was, I was- Yes, that exhausted the pipeline ... I missed the part of it 'cause I couldn't connect when I left to the thing. Mm-hmm. But, uh, the question of David's theory about that, that, um, shame is, like, the biggest culprit, right? Is that, is that the correct thing? 

[01:49:08] David Cooley: Not- 

[01:49:08] Eldar: Well, yeah, he... In his, in his- 

[01:49:10] David Cooley: But it's significant

[01:49:11] Eldar: studies significantly. 

[01:49:12] Mike: Yeah, my thought was this, right? If, I don't know, like, is there a connection between, like, the soul and shame? And do you believe in, like, the recollection of the soul? 

[01:49:24] Is there, is that part of, like, things that you guys discussed? 

[01:49:27] David Cooley: No. 

[01:49:28] Eldar: No, not, not the recollection, no. 

[01:49:29] David Cooley: No. That would be outside the purview of the work that we're doing.

[01:49:32] Mike: Okay. All right. Yeah, I just, just had a theory and I was curious if it, you know, if it makes any sense. But if you were to believe in the recollection of the soul, right? And I guess if you were subconsciously or unconsciously, like, I guess making or doing things that violate your soul, and if your soul is, like, all-knowing, kinda all, like, knowing the truth and good, would you develop shame by constantly, like, subconsciously going through that, going against the internal thing, I guess, that, that is the soul?

[01:50:07] David Cooley: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's an interesting question. I think what I, what I find is that when you go against your own sense of self, like, it doesn't even have to be that mystical or that spiritual, like- 

[01:50:18] Mike: Yeah, sure. ... 

[01:50:19] David Cooley: All of us have our own sense of self, and that sense of self, you know, is constructed by various influences.

[01:50:27] Mm-hmm. And when you go, that's really grounded in a sense of value, like what's important in your life. And often what I see is that shame makes us go against those things. We act in ways that run against the way that we want to be, or the way that we feel is important, or relate to ourselves or others in a way that feels in accord with how we see ourselves.

[01:50:50] That's usually how I see shame manifesting. 

[01:50:54] Eldar: So, so you're looking at sha- Oh, you said it's because of shame that they then commit maybe crimes against themselves. Where I was thinking of more like you've committed a crime, a crime against yourself- Oh, okay ... your true self, therefore you feel the shame. Yeah.

[01:51:09] No, 

[01:51:09] David Cooley: that's, 

[01:51:10] Mike: that's 

[01:51:10] David Cooley: the 

[01:51:10] Mike: way I thought about it, too. 

[01:51:11] David Cooley: It could be a starting- Both ... a starting, either way. To me it's a cycle. It's, it's, it could start 

[01:51:15] Eldar: at 

[01:51:15] David Cooley: either point. 

[01:51:17] Eldar: Oh. Okay. 

[01:51:17] David Cooley: It's both. 

[01:51:18] Eldar: All right. Well, do we have any other questions? 

[01:51:24] Toliy: No. No, I mean, I feel like I definitely, you know, got a different perspective.

[01:51:29] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:51:30] Toliy: Yeah. I definitely think it's something that we haven't... I mean, may- may- maybe we- we've, like, explored it, but in other ways, but not through this sense of, um, shame. But I definitely feel I definitely feel that shame is a limiting belief, and I definitely think it's holding people back. And, like, I always bucketed shame in, like, two, two different ways of, like, people can shame you, right, in- into things, right, into you, like, feeling particular ways.

[01:51:55] And then I also just viewed it that people shame themselves based on, like, the, uh, the, uh, truths that they've kind of collected and that they, that they identify as, like, what's right or wrong, or what's real or not, not real in, like, how they live their life. And I definitely view that, like, it has a huge a huge weight on people's shoulders whe- in, in, in how they operate.

[01:52:16] And o- oftentimes I think it leads to unhappy lives when you when you, uh, e- either are, um, suffer from this, like, self-imposed shame y- you've created, or that you're able to allow others to shame, shame you. So I de- so I definitely think that it's a, uh, very important aspect of it.

[01:52:33] Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:52:36] David Cooley: Cool. Well, I appreciate y'all having me. It's been fun to, to get in the sandbox. 

[01:52:40] Eldar: For sure. Thanks 

[01:52:40] Katherine: so much for reaching out. Uh- 

[01:52:42] Eldar: Yeah, David- It's been very interesting ... it's not by mere chance that David found us, right? Yeah. As you can 

[01:52:46] Katherine: see. Yeah, and it's very, very interesting. 

[01:52:48] Eldar: Yes, for sure. 

[01:52:49] Katherine: Yeah. 

[01:52:49] Eldar: Um, yes, David, thank you so much for reaching out.

[01:52:52] Katherine: Thank 

[01:52:53] Eldar: you. Yes, I think this was definitely, uh, the right fit- 

[01:52:56] Katherine: Absolutely ... 

[01:52:56] Eldar: as you can see. 

[01:52:57] Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:52:57] Eldar: Right? I think, uh, despite the fact that David has a professional side, you can see that he's also- Yeah ... just like us. He can talk shit, he can curse. 

[01:53:05] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:53:06] Eldar: And that's what I was looking forward to as well, because he is a, he's human, you know?

[01:53:09] Mm-hmm. And, um, but he is definitely versed in shame more than us, as you can see. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. And I think that we definitely have to study on it a little bit more and dissect it, because I think it's a... It's interesting that we never thought, talked about shame. We talked about so many 

[01:53:24] Toliy: things.

[01:53:24] We just gr- grazed- Mm-hmm ... grazed shame. 'Cause I think we've always... I, I, I've, I think we've always may- maybe, like, um, talked about shame, but be- it being a part of the other things that we've talked about versus its own- 

[01:53:34] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:53:34] Toliy: Mm-hmm ... like, like, like, uh, body. 'Cause, like, we always talk about things that, like, there's reasons as to why you feel this way and you believe those things, and we've always tried to, like, challenge those things that, like, you feel are, like, you know, you know, I guess we, we say right or wrong, or true or not true.

[01:53:52] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:53:52] Toliy: Right? And talk about it from that kind of ang- uh, angle. And we always find that, like, yes, people's beliefs they always lead to, like, how they feel and how their lives are either, you know, good or bad or negative or positive. And yeah, we, we, we've always attacked it, I think, from that kind of- Yeah

[01:54:08] perspective, but, but not that specific shame word, word of shame. Yeah. Yeah. I 

[01:54:11] David Cooley: think it's interesting 

[01:54:12] Toliy: to 

[01:54:12] David Cooley: note that shame is one of the hardest things for people to talk about. I mean, that's part of what keeps shame so- Mm ... inconceivable. 

[01:54:19] Toliy: Oh, yeah, undercover. Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:54:21] David Cooley: We're socialized to not look at it.

[01:54:23] We're socialized to have shame about shame, right? And so this is- Yeah ... gonna 

[01:54:27] Katherine: be 

[01:54:27] David Cooley: really, really hard for people to talk about because it's so uncomfortable. And so I don't think it's a coincidence, right? That you haven't talked about it- Mm ... or that it's been lumped into something else, 'cause it's hard to sit there with it.

[01:54:39] Who the f- 

[01:54:40] Toliy: Well, I think part of it is like- ... that there's a lack of forgiveness, right? If people don't talk about it they can't forgive themselves, or they can't acknowledge it, so it's hard. But I, I mean, I've always believed that, like, there, you ... to fundamentally change your life or to fundamentally change, you need to put yourself in a position where you're extremely of, vuln- vulnerable, right?

[01:54:59] And part of that, I think, is bringing out those things that you're that you have shame in or that you- Mm-hmm ... shame, shameful of. Otherwise, I think it's impossible- 

[01:55:06] David Cooley: Absolutely ... 

[01:55:07] Toliy: to actually change. 

[01:55:07] David Cooley: Yeah. I'm gonna drop another book on you before I go, and it's called I Don't Want to Talk About It by Terry Real, therapist Terry Real, and it was one of the first books that I saw that addresses specifically masculine shame and the way that men are socialized to not talk about it, not deal with it, not look at it, uh, in the way that, that really undermines our own self-awareness and our capacity for relational intimacy.

[01:55:34] And he's one of the first to really publicly bring the question of shame closer to the mainstream. So if you're interested, it's a, it's a broader view of why shame is just so obscured and hard to talk about. 

[01:55:49] Eldar: Well, enough of plugging, uh, everyone else's book. Okay? We have David Cooley here. Yeah. And, uh, he's, he's a co-author or an author of this book, okay?

[01:55:59] With Jessica Fern. So to our audience, if you found that this topic is relevant, that you, you heard something that you wanna expand more on, we definitely have an individual who wrote, who really studied this subject- Mm-hmm ... in, in depth and have some more understanding than we do. So please, David, please plug yourself in now one more time, uh, your social media or anywhere else where they can find you, buy your books, uh, shamelessly.

[01:56:25] We ... Yeah. Go crazy. 

[01:56:27] David Cooley: Yeah. So my website is restorativerelationship.com. That's where people can find me directly, and that's where I host clients, uh, for private sessions, either individuals or partners. My partner in crime here is Jessica Fern, and so you can find her at jessicafern.com. The book, as you said, that we wrote together is called Transforming the Shame Triangle, and that can be found anywhere that you buy books, so anywhere online.

[01:56:54] It's very available. And we also have a platform called The Azurite Way, and so you can find us there. And we've been doing online classes there. We actually just finished our first eight-week course. So right now we're talking on May the 8th. So we just finished a course for people that are really wanting to do an immersive experience in dealing with their shame, and it went really well.

[01:57:17] A lot of people were invested in it, and it was really cool to see people, uh, jump into that process. So that's a platform where we're offering these kinds of experiential things related to the work that we're doing. 

[01:57:29] Eldar: Awesome. Again, guys, thank you so much. If anybody else has final thoughts. Mike, do you have anything?

[01:57:36] Mike: No, I'm good. 

[01:57:37] Eldar: All right. I'm good. All right. Well, David, do you have any other questions or comments? No. You wanna finish 

[01:57:42] David Cooley: with- I wanna express the appreciation. Thanks for having the platform and, and creating a place where this work can get out into the world. 

[01:57:48] Eldar: Ab- absolutely. And we're gonna make sure to advertise this, um, this episode, you know, and, uh, hopefully we'll reach people that actually need to hear this stuff.

[01:57:58] Again, guys, thank you so much. This was great. All 

[01:57:59] David Cooley: right. 

[01:58:00] Katherine: Thank you. 

[01:58:00] David Cooley: Ciao. I'm good. 

[01:58:01] Katherine: Bye-bye. Good 

[01:58:02] night.