219. Hijacked Attention

Are you subtly giving away ownership of your mind and life to algorithms without even realizing it?

In this episode, special guest James returns after three years to join Eldar, Mike, and Toliy for a deep, candid conversation about the modern epidemic of hijacked attention. Toliy breaks down his recent digital detox from X (Twitter) and video games, uncovering how content engines continuously optimize to capture our focus—leaving us with zero energy, focus, or love for ourselves.

💡 Most Insightful Moment

"Probably for 99.9% of people, the reality I think in present day is that the last person that they actually love is themselves." — Toliy

🔑 Key Takeaways & What You’ll Learn

• The Attention Heist: How big media, sports engines, and video games optimize to keep you trapped in a perpetual loop, replacing personal self-love with constant external consumption.
• The Dopamine Withdrawal: What actually happens to your brain during the first few days of a social media detox and breaking a social media addiction.
• The Price of Peace: Why knowing "what's going on in the world" creates a false sense of security while your real-life mental health and priorities sit on the back burner.
• Observer vs. Experiencer: How to reclaim your attention span and build focus and clarity when stepping back into reality feels painful.

🚨 The Cliffhanger

Toliy reveals that reclaiming your stolen mind comes at a cost far higher than what you sold it for... but just as the team starts uncovering the exact framework to buy back your freedom, an unexpected realization about human action exposes why most people will remain trapped forever...

📣 Enjoyed this episode? Make sure to Follow / Subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, leave a 5-star review, and share this episode with a friend who needs a wake-up call!

Feel stuck and can't actualize? We'd love to hear your story - form  - https://forms.gle/joegCWQ7mHt7eN3K9

Transcript

[00:00:00] Dennis: On this week's episode 

[00:00:02] Toliy:Probably for 99.9% of people, the reality I think in present day is that the last person that they actually love is themselves. 

[00:00:11] Eldar: Ooh. Now I'm gonna pass the mic to Toliy to actually explain what is it that he's discovered about social media or these external factors that actually are hijacking his mind and he's realizing that like, look, I don't even have attention for myself.

[00:00:25] Toliy: My platform of choice was like X. This was like my first week without it on my phone. The first two days I was like completely like frozen. Like I felt like an addict

[00:00:43] Eldar: All right, guys. Another Friday. Sorry we were away. I mean, I was away last Friday. I was sick. I'm glad I'm, I'm back. Um, I think my voice is not back yet, but we're back. And, um, first of all, let's welcome back our guest. He hasn't been here in three years, which is pretty crazy. But James is back. 

[00:01:08] Mike: James is 

[00:01:09] Eldar: back.

[00:01:09] Back 

[00:01:10] Mike: again. Back 

[00:01:11] Eldar: again. What did he go? What, tell some men? 

[00:01:13] Mike: Tell a friend. 

[00:01:14] Eldar: Tell a friend. Yeah. James, welcome back, man. Thank you. It's always good to see you. You know, obviously, you know, you in Arizona now, but anytime you come it's, it's nice. 

[00:01:23] Mike: Thank 

[00:01:23] Eldar: you. Uh, especially your input is very interesting always.

[00:01:26] Yes. So we're, we're excited to see that. Uh, for tonight's topic though I guess we're gonna talk about yet again about Toliy's epiphany that he's receiving from above or from the inside. 

[00:01:39] Mike: He plugged in. 

[00:01:40] Eldar: He's plugged in. Every time he plugs in, he kinda gets these epiphanies, and he realizes one specific thing always, that it's over for everybody.

[00:01:49] It's always over for everyone. 

[00:01:50] And I think that he always comes up with the same kind of conclusion because... And obviously he's gonna explain what it is. That he's able to feel maybe how bad it really is, right? Whatever, whatever the topic may be, whatever epiphany he might come through to, he always applies it upon the world, and he does a really good job at this.

[00:02:08] You know what I mean? He does it really well. And he's pretty convincing too. Every time he does have an epiphany, whatever it is, it's over for everybody. Mm-hmm. And it's pretty fucked, right? If you actually pay attention, I mean, we have a bunch of listeners now, right? We have, uh, thousands of listens, and if you really follow his train of thought, I think you've come to realize, like, "Yo, wait a sec.

[00:02:27] He's onto something." So Toliy, please, tell us what else- 

[00:02:31] Toliy: Well, I, you have to s- start it up, you 

[00:02:33] Eldar: know? All right. So I'll start it up a little. 

[00:02:35] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:02:36] Eldar: I guess, as everybody knows, especially those who's been with us for many years now, uh, know Toliy's journey from ups and downs and everything, from, treating his own anxiety, from, fighting weight loss, or not fighting weight loss, or losing weight, and on...

[00:02:52] Through all the different trials and tribulations that Toliy's been going through, right? Um, the one thing that he's now trying to journey is which I think is a very important one, and I actually think that it's probably one of the best ones, is, uh, is attention and focus. Okay? And the pit that he's uncovering right now, he's come to realize that this is probably the most important one, but despite the fact that he's always labeled the other ones as- It always 

[00:03:19] Toliy: feels the most 

[00:03:19] Eldar: important

[00:03:19] it always feel- feels the most important, especially because maybe at the moment when you're experiencing what you're experiencing, all the pains, and you apply or find something, discover something, you're like, "Yo, this is the most important thing." But for him right now, it's, it's attention and focus. And if you really look into your life and, uh, kind of survey, not survey, but examine some of the little details that are going on in your life, some of the habits that you get yourself into, you quickly find out that there's a lot of stuff that takes your attention or hijacks it, right?

[00:03:50] In Toliy's case for as long as we know him, Mike, and you can attest to this, that Toliy's been the headline king. 

[00:03:57] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:03:57] Eldar: Right? It's like, you know, if you put on Channel 12 or Channel 1- Mm-hmm ... or whatever the news. 

[00:04:00] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:04:01] Eldar: CNN or Fox, whatever the fuck you're listening to. 

[00:04:03] They deliver news. Yeah.

[00:04:04] So Toliy was that guy. Yes. He would deliver the... But he wouldn't deliver them in, I would say in the, in depth. 

[00:04:10] Right? Maybe some topics he would, because, you know, he really interested in them, but mostly it's, it's very surface level- 

[00:04:15] Mike: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:04:16] Eldar: um, kind of- Headlines only ... prop- propaganda, yes. Yeah, 

[00:04:19] Mike: yeah. Yeah, 

[00:04:19] Eldar: headlines only, yeah.

[00:04:21] Um, and there was on many different spectrums. Yeah So many different topics. S- what- whatever they're selling out there, Toliy's buying. 

[00:04:28] And then he was selling it to us. Toliy, now I'm gonna pass the mic to Toliy to actually explain what, what is it that he's discovered about social media or his relationship to social media, or the way he interacts with some of these things, these external factors that actually are plaguing his mind, hijacking his mind, and he's realizing they're like, "Look, I don't even have attention for myself."

[00:04:50] Drop it. 

[00:04:51] Toliy: Yeah, well, you know- 

[00:04:52] Eldar: Did I do 

[00:04:53] Toliy: okay? Um, yeah. 

[00:04:53] Eldar: Okay. 

[00:04:54] Toliy: Yeah, you did well. I think for once it's like a little bit of like a, like a tongue in cheek, uh, way of saying it, but- Whoa. What the hell is that? I think it's not over... 

[00:05:01] Mike: What? 

[00:05:02] Toliy: What 

[00:05:02] Mike: the hell is a tongue in cheek, man? Yeah. We don't know this kind of shit, 

[00:05:05] Eldar: bro.

[00:05:05] Yeah, we never 

[00:05:06] Toliy: heard you 

[00:05:06] Eldar: say this, man. 

[00:05:07] Toliy: No, but like- We've been listening to you ... they say that as like a, uh, like a joking thing, right? Yeah. Like when someone's j- that, that's like a phrase, right? Oh, I've 

[00:05:13] Eldar: heard 

[00:05:13] Toliy: this 

[00:05:13] Eldar: phrase before. 

[00:05:13] Toliy: Um, and just, yeah. I just never heard you utter it. Yeah. I, I think they probably- I, I have no idea what it means

[00:05:16] said it in Love Island or something, uh, recently. 

[00:05:18] Eldar: Okay. All right, fine. Fair. 

[00:05:19] Toliy: Maybe that's why, but- 

[00:05:20] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:05:20] Toliy: yeah, like the- You basically saying 

[00:05:21] James: a lot of bullshit, 

[00:05:22] Toliy: man. In, in like a, uh, joking way I, I think it's actually not over for everybody. Hmm. But I think that, that, that's like the, uh, the I don't know if unfortunate thing or that's just, I think, the, uh, reality of it because, yeah, through some recent discoveries, at least for myself and, and just like seeing how people operate and what they say and do I think that probably for 99.9% of people, the p- um, the, um, the reality I think in present day is that the last person that they actually love is themselves.

[00:05:57] Eldar: Ooh. 

[00:05:57] Toliy: I think that the last person they care about is actually themselves. I think the last person that they pay attention to is themselves. And I think it seems like just based on how things are, people just don't care about themselves. And I think they, they, they don't care about themselves probably a bit from like, um, piggybacking on like the last topic we talked about is like they're usually operating in pain and because they operate out of a place of pain, they just don't have any kind of attention span or desire to do, like actually do things for themselves or pay attention to what's going on in their lives.

[00:06:37] And for me at least, I realize that you know, I find it very difficult for me to focus on like really almost anything, like, um, um, I'm definitely a very curious person, but my curiosity is, is completely hijacked on just like all things that are going on in the world like politics, sports, finance, like, I don't know, you name it.

[00:07:03] Like ev- every topic out there, and my mind constantly wants to find out what's going on in the world, you know, just like- 

[00:07:12] Eldar: Outside, externally. 

[00:07:13] Toliy: Yeah. And, and it's not a conscious like, um, like it wasn't a conscious like desire where like, okay, like, like I wanna find out today what's going on- Yeah ... here or that.

[00:07:22] It was just like, like it, it felt like it, it was just how I live and how I survive is just like finding about, finding out about everything that's going on, and that to me was like a very normal automated phenomena. And I felt comfort in knowing what's going on, and it just like it gave me something to think about, always something to like do.

[00:07:45] And then I was Struggling on doing like, on like sitting down and doing any kind of task and actually focusing on it. Like, my automatic reaction's always to like, you know, open my phone and check, see what's going on there, see what's going on there. What's the updates there? What's the updates that?

[00:08:02] And like, for example, like I, I like sports, you know, and I follow like a lot of sports. So just to be able to keep up what's going on in every sport I follow, for example, there's like endless content. And there, when there's no content, they will always create content because the, um, the job at all these kind of like, engines is to provide content for the users.

[00:08:28] It is to like the, um, the main purpose of all these, you know, different apps like, I don't know, all the social media apps out there, right, is to buy your attention span and,

[00:08:40] Eldar: Capture, capture it. 

[00:08:40] Toliy: Yeah. To capture it, right? 'Cause you have, whatever amount of hours in a day where you're like awake, right?

[00:08:46] They continue to optimize it with AI, with a bunch of other things to try to figure out, how do we get this person's time? That, that's what their actual job is. And then there's companies that obviously pay them to, to get a piece of your time, and that's how they, that's obviously how you have interests.

[00:09:03] But I think when it comes to these different interests and these different topics, I think most people they're not operating from a place of like, "Hey, I'm all good. I did everything for myself. Like, I'm good. I'm just gonna watch this out of like complete like, uh, leisure and just look at this and then just, and then move on with my life or do something."

[00:09:24] I think if most people don't feel that way, I think they either eventually will, or, maybe they won't. But I think if they really started to think, they would feel the same way. So for me at least yeah, I've just felt that like my attention span is completely w- taken from me, and I feel like I willfully like, o- over time, yeah, gave it away and handed it over to someone else.

[00:09:49] And now I no longer have ownership over like my time or how I do things, what I think about, when I think about it, and I'm like, I was like addicted to finding out all this information and constantly doing it. And when I've, when I try to summon my own time and my own attention span to do particular things I wanna do, I can't do them So to me it was a very interesting feeling and a very interesting, like, um, realization overall that, um, because people don't know how to navigate the world, they don't know what their purpose is, they don't know why they're here or what to do or where they fit in in general with society, with their life, with like, what's the point of all this, right?

[00:10:33] I think that there are other outlets out there that will tell you how to think, tell you how to act, and tell you what to do, and they will continue to optimize to keep like, having you be a continuous subscriber to what they have to offer. And then before you know it, you've kind of given away a piece of yourself to all of these different things, and then you no longer...

[00:10:55] You, you have no time for yourself, and you don't care about yourself. And that's just, like, I think the reality I, I think at least for most people that they give away their time to everything else out there and caring about everything else out there rather than, like, caring about them, about themselves and paying attention to themselves and working on themselves.

[00:11:16] And there's probably a very few, like, rare amount of people that can that actually do things after they're already all good and everything is g- is, like, r-r-really on point with them, where they can actually... or they have actual, like, spare time, if you wanna call it. Yeah, that's I guess what I was, like, thinking about when I was, uh, going through all week and, um- 

[00:11:40] Eldar: It was a big epiphany for you.

[00:11:41] Toliy: Yeah, I w- yeah, it was definitely big and, you know, my platform of choice was, like, X. And you know, it has information and, like, stuff about everything, and it's- Unlimited. Yeah, it's so good too, like, how, how it optimizes and this was, like, my first week without it on my phone and without thinking about it, and it was like the first two days I was, like, completely, like, fro- frozen.

[00:12:05] Like, I felt like an addict. Like- Mm. That's how I felt. Like, I'm like, like I don't even know what to do. 

[00:12:10] Eldar: Mm. 

[00:12:10] Toliy: You know?

[00:12:11] Eldar: Like I- Why do you want, why do you wanna, why do you wanna take the, the ship back or your kingdom back? 

[00:12:16] Toliy: I think it's a really interesting phenomenon that people are will- are willing to willfully, Care about others and care about what's going on in the world more than they care about themselves, and I think they show that through their actions.

[00:12:29] And I think just the reality of it is that I think it's, they probably got to a point where it's too painful to pay attention to themselves and too painful to see what's going on in their own life and what's actually happening, and it's not painful just to, like, just be out there with the world, because there's like- Okay, but 

[00:12:47] Eldar: what if, what if you, what if you don't really have, like, this maybe you are suffering from this because you have some kind of an ambition to accomplish something, right? But what about the people that are kinda, like, already decided that that's their life and that they use this, you know, out- these outlets as a way to kinda decompress and relax?

[00:13:05] Toliy: The thing is that everyone still wants to, you know- 

[00:13:08] Eldar: How do you know? 

[00:13:09] Toliy: Well, like, they're... Like, why are they alive? What's the purpose of their life? Like, why are they- 

[00:13:12] Eldar: Maybe, you know, watch their sports teams win, the Knicks. 

[00:13:16] Toliy: That, that's kind of what they've brought into their life, for example, right?

[00:13:20] Mm-hmm. But the way that they've acted and the, and the decisions that they've made, that they- they've kind of taken away all, like, individualism of themselves. Like, they, they almost no longer exist. They're- Mm. They're just like, like, what, what- They're 

[00:13:32] Eldar: a fan. 

[00:13:33] Toliy: Yeah. Well, a- 

[00:13:34] Eldar: A permanent fan. 

[00:13:35] Toliy: Yeah, like a permanent fan, but it's also, it's like they completely rely and feed off of this other engine that's, like, created that to, to infinitely go.

[00:13:44] Right? And- They don't think for 

[00:13:45] James: themselves. 

[00:13:46] Toliy: Yeah. They- It's kind of- They don't like, uh... Like, if that were to turn off, for example, like, who would they be? What well, what would they do? Not, not saying it will 'cause it probably won't, obviously. 

[00:13:56] James: Yeah. 

[00:13:56] Toliy: Right? But it won't because there's too much demand for it.

[00:13:59] There's, like, you know, the people constantly scream that, "We, we want more and we want..."

[00:14:02] Eldar: Yeah. And better. Just look at the UFC tickets. We can't even go anymore. 

[00:14:05] Toliy: Yeah. So yeah, I don't get it. How are, like, everyone's screaming that they're broke, but the ticket prices keep going up. 

[00:14:12] Eldar: Yeah, $1,000- 

[00:14:13] Toliy: Yeah, of course

[00:14:14] and the worst 

[00:14:14] Eldar: seats. 

[00:14:14] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:14:15] Eldar: What? 

[00:14:15] Toliy: So- 

[00:14:16] James: So I'm curious to know, how you got to this point or what brought you to this epiphany before maybe we can track how it originated. 

[00:14:23] Eldar: Good question. 

[00:14:24] Toliy: Yeah. Part of it came from the realization of that, like, I have a hard time focusing on, on, like, anything.

[00:14:31] My mind is, like, Like, there there's very few things where I don't feel the need that I need. I constantly feel the need that I need to multitask. That is definitely a thing that I've always had, that like, I need to do this, this, and this all at the same time, right? And- I definitely found comfort in finding out all this news and knowing all this stuff and, like, seeing how things play out, how all these different stories and all these different things play out of people's, like, j- like, uh, journeys.

[00:15:01] But the one I was neg- neglecting is my, is, is, is my own. And then when it would came to, like, doing things for myself or caring about myself yeah, I felt like I was, I was on the back burner. So it was like- 

[00:15:16] James: Were you aware of that, though, as you were in it or navigating through it? Oh, no, 

[00:15:20] Toliy: absolutely not.

[00:15:21] James: Okay. 

[00:15:21] Toliy: Well, no, it d- it doesn't feel that way. It feels, it feels like just, like, an activity that you do or something that you do. But I think if you go deeply into it and you examine it, and you see the different things that you do in your life and what you care about or you know, how you in general operate, um, I think that most people would see that they are on the back burner.

[00:15:43] They, they actually don't love themselves, and they actually don't do things for themselves first. They,

[00:15:50] James: So are you saying that's what you were experiencing, lack of love for 

[00:15:53] Toliy: yourself? Y- well, I was experiencing just the realization that, like, yeah, like, out, out of the different things that I commit to doing and put my time into, um, the things that are actually, like helpful to me or, like, or, like, contribute to my growth are, like not really important for me.

[00:16:10] And then I f- 

[00:16:10] Eldar: Give, give some concrete examples for James. I think that's what he was looking for. 

[00:16:14] Toliy: Concrete examples? 

[00:16:15] Eldar: Or the basement, you could start with that. Like, simple stuff. 

[00:16:18] Toliy: Yeah, just like, for example, like, cleaning of, like, my property or my, like, you know, like, my house or, like, doing particular things at, like, work or, um...

[00:16:29] Yeah, like, uh, like things that are actually important to me, um, and actually things that, like,

[00:16:37] Eldar: Make him better 

[00:16:38] Toliy: Yeah, make- Make his life better Yeah, make my life b- better are not priorities like At all. 

[00:16:45] James: Then can I ask you one thing? Because you're really good at WoW, right? You had like a ranking. Yeah.

[00:16:50] How would you describe WoW for yourself? Because there is some type of attention focus shifting or moving somewhere. 

[00:16:59] Eldar: Yeah. '

[00:16:59] James: Cause I think attention and focus is always there, it's just a matter of us, you know, being mindful or w- where it's shifting. Were you very passionate about WoW? Do you feel like you had attention and focus when you played WoW, or your attention is selective?

[00:17:13] Toliy: So yes and no. Yeah, my, my attention was definitely selective, but also, I mean, I multitasked while doing that stuff all the time too. But also again, like playing, like playing WoW and doing that is also like, sure, it could be like, you know, it's obviously like fun like in the moment, but then it's also like there's like an, like a, uh, two, two...

[00:17:34] to continuously play it, you have to play it like a lot, and then it just gets into a pit where it becomes like unhealthy, and I actually stopped playing it like, um, three weeks ago or so, or a month ago. Um- 

[00:17:46] James: Okay. Did you notice when it became unhealthy? 

[00:17:49] Toliy: No, I don't... No. On- only towards like- Well, this time 

[00:17:51] Eldar: you did.

[00:17:51] You did say that. Well- You said, "Hey, my sleep got fucked up." 

[00:17:54] Toliy: Towards, towards the end. "Started getting fat 

[00:17:55] Eldar: again." 

[00:17:55] Toliy: Yeah, yeah. Towards the end again is that like, yeah, I realized that like yeah, y- like again, like my sleep is bad. I can't wake up early. I can't go to bed early. I like continuously go to bed late.

[00:18:07] Stay up super late on like the weekends. Then it like, yeah, it just results into like not feeling good, like not taking care of yourself. 

[00:18:14] James: Okay. 

[00:18:15] Toliy: Yeah, it's, yeah, it's like o- yeah, it's also like, again, it's like another world almost created for you to, uh, obviously like will- willfully participate in.

[00:18:25] But then like y- you kind of put yourself as a like your actual life on the back burner. Because it, it like j- just like, um, social media is its own world, right? 

[00:18:39] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:18:39] Toliy: That's like created within our world. I mean, like some of, some, some of these video games are the same way. It's also another world.

[00:18:45] They're 

[00:18:45] Eldar: exa- they're exactly that. 

[00:18:46] Toliy: Right? Yeah. Designed to. That d- yeah, designed to also take- Abs- ... your time and hijack your attention and your focus, and have you like... they're all very like they're all designed obviously to be very addictive. 

[00:19:02] James: So why do you think this began, or when do you think this started?

[00:19:07] Was there something you felt missing in your life? Well- Do you feel it was r- related to some form of relationship, household interactions? 

[00:19:14] Toliy: No. 

[00:19:15] James: No, it's not like a- You know, is it something related to... Because you're uncovering things internally, right? You're having an epiphany. You're having internal realizations Right?

[00:19:25] And something you mentioned i- is very interesting that I feel we all go through, and even when I met you guys that I went through, right? This internal shift, within yourself. You start becoming aware or a little more hyper-aware of particular things. So, um, and the further you go into this journey or navigating into yourself or learning about your own habits, behaviors, things like that, it takes you further and further each time when you're ready.

[00:19:53] So I think right now you've been working, like Eldar has mentioned, and I've been listening to podcasts, you've been working on different things, right, within yourself and I think it just takes you further and further at different moments when maybe you're ready for it or maybe you're more aware of it.

[00:20:09] I guess my question is more so do you feel-- 'Cause I'm trying to dig to the root of it, trying to understand and I personally feel or I believe that a lot of things stem from particular interactions, may it be within the home or interactions with people out in the world. So something happened to create that shift where now your attention is fo- focus is on social media.

[00:20:35] However it may have been. It may have been something simple. It doesn't have to be like grandiose or like intense. 

[00:20:41] Toliy: N- Yeah, I'm not, yeah, I'm not sure I guess like exactly what but I mean, I've definitely always been like a curious person but just like my curiosity has been like in, like in, in something else like X for example in, in sports and all these different things and like, yeah, I'm not sure if there was like a particular like, uh, shift. I, I, I feel like I've always been like, like that and I've always struggled to be focused on things for extended period of times and I've always struggled on doing things for extended periods of times that are I guess like so-called good for myself, and yeah, y- yeah, like a thing, uh, as I think about it and as I examine it now, To me, it feels like the craziest heist I feel like is going on in, like, society, and people are, like, willfully handing over the reins to their life to just, like, the outside world, and they're no- and they're not thinking for themselves.

[00:21:42] And they just kind of like, they're, like, allowing themselves to almost be told by other people to what what to do, and it's very, I think, convenient and very easy to, like-

[00:22:00] To be in that like an arch 

[00:22:04] Eldar: Okay, well- 

[00:22:05] Toliy: Yeah ... 

[00:22:05] Eldar: it, it's, but it doesn't sound like a natural phenomenon. Like, look, if you're not aware of this, if you don't have the ability to control yourself, you most likely will be, um, influenced by the world in a very specific way that you might not necessarily like, but the world will take care of you.

[00:22:23] Well, 

[00:22:24] Toliy: yeah, I think, yeah, I think naturally if you don't know what to do- 

[00:22:28] ... 

[00:22:28] Toliy: Someone else out there is gonna tell you what to do You know? 

[00:22:36] Eldar: Yeah. Wow. That's a, that, that's a, that's today's photo, right? 

[00:22:39] Toliy: Yes. 

[00:22:39] Eldar: Of the day

[00:22:47] I don't think this ever happened 

[00:22:48] Toliy: No 

[00:22:49] Eldar: But for those who can't see us, obviously, I'll post a picture on X. Um, but it's Archie climbed on this little footstool that I w- I had my feet on, and he laid down. It's very, very funny. Sick. He's funny. He's a big dog climbed onto a very small thing. That's just Kinda like his head, his tail is off of it.

[00:23:13] It's funny

[00:23:17] Yeah. It almost sounds like a survival of the fittest, what you guys described. 

[00:23:21] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:23:22] Eldar: Right? Where it's like- 

[00:23:23] Mike: It doesn't seem like anything's actually wrong. You're- Well, 

[00:23:25] Eldar: yeah ... 

[00:23:26] Mike: like, you're, people are in pain. They don't know how to solve it. 

[00:23:28] Eldar: Yeah. And there's outlets. 

[00:23:29] Mike: They're not like, they're not asking the questions that you might be asking because they don't know how, they've never learned, it's not normal for them, so they're looking for pain relief I guess it sounds okay.

[00:23:40] Eldar: Yeah, the, obviously pain relief comes with a price, right? Yeah. There's side effects to the pain relief, right? Yeah, yeah. Play enough games, don't get enough sleep. 

[00:23:46] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:23:47] Eldar: Watch enough sports, spend a lot of shit on jerseys, tickets, whatever. You know, there's gonna be consequences- It's normal ... to some of the stuff.

[00:23:54] And, uh, up until you wake up, maybe like you are, right? You, you're like, "Okay, cool. Like, I gotta unsubscribe from this shit because it's c- clearly is not promoting me." 

[00:24:03] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:24:03] Eldar: And I think that the people that are waking up, and the people that wanna self-actualize and be better and be stronger and be able to maybe put their own imprint onto the world, yeah, they unsubscribe.

[00:24:14] But everyone else, yeah, it might be not their time. 

[00:24:17] Toliy: Yeah. I just feel that, like, it, it takes a lot of, like, brain power to, like, better yourself and to do different things and to think about new concepts and try to, like, ma- like, figure out what, what's going on in general, like, in your life, in the world, and all these different concepts.

[00:24:34] And I just feel that, like, with how people interact with the world right now, they don't have the any kind of, uh, brain power left or any kind of attention span or time left to do anything but what they've kind of sub- subscribed to. And it... and they un- un- underestimate as to how much time they actually spend to thinking about all these different things and how much time they don't spend thinking about themselves.

[00:25:04] James: Hmm. 

[00:25:04] Mike: Yeah, but it's like, yeah, you... like, you're describing a thing. It sounds like a problem, but it's also like, I don't know, I'm not seeing it as a problem because they're not thinking about those things because that's just not what they're thinking about. Well, 

[00:25:17] Toliy: yeah, no, but sure. 

[00:25:18] Mike: That's like- They don't have, like, a- But 

[00:25:19] Toliy: that's, that's like anything, though.

[00:25:20] Like, if they're not- 

[00:25:21] Mike: Yeah ... 

[00:25:21] Toliy: if, like, a- any concept. If no one, if that person's not thinking about it, then it's not a problem for them. 

[00:25:26] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. Um, I- People have to solve their problems- In general ... in the priority of their, of what they understand and what they can manage. Yeah. If you, if your, uh, house is on fire, you're not gonna go start, like, uh, mowing the lawn, right?

[00:25:39] Because you remember that the lawn is not mowed. You're gonna take out, care of what's important. Their house is on fire. 

[00:25:45] Eldar: Internal. 

[00:25:46] Mike: Internal house on fire. 

[00:25:48] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:25:48] Mike: Yeah. They're not thinking about mowing the lawn because the lawn is three feet tall. It just... And this is like... Yeah, this is, like, a very common.

[00:25:55] We always... Like, what's that gap for people to see the importance? They need to solve their pain first. They gotta put that house out that's on fire, and it may take 10 years to put that fire out. It may take 20. It may take a lifetime or several lifetimes. 

[00:26:08] Eldar: Yeah, but- You have to give him credit because I think raising awareness if To- let's just say this, if Toliy, let's just take a premise of this.

[00:26:16] Mm-hmm. If Toliy is in fact on the road to success- 

[00:26:19] Mike: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:26:20] Eldar: for personal success- ... personal growth and everything that he's been doing too, right? He's uncovering certain levels or steps that you need to get through- Mm-hmm ... in order to then actualize himself. 

[00:26:30] So he's raising awareness to anyone who's listening- 

[00:26:33] Mike: Yeah

[00:26:33] Eldar: who wants to have a better life, who wants to li- live a good, happy life. 

[00:26:37] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:37] Eldar: I think these are kind of the cues that you have to kind of get heads up on. Like, wait a second here. Like, why am I spending so much time on social media while my fucking house is on fire, right? Yeah. Something else is on fire, right?

[00:26:46] Like, why am I doing that? Why am I procrastinating? Why am I- 

[00:26:50] Mike: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:26:50] Eldar: constantly diverting my attention somewhere else? Why am I selling out? Mm-hmm. And ultimately, this is what this podcast is about. 

[00:26:55] Mike: Yeah, of course. 

[00:26:56] Eldar: We all sold out a long time ago. Mm-hmm. And, you know, all the philosophers that we've studied they all point back to, to the self.

[00:27:02] Examine the self. Mm-hmm. Find out what the fuck is going on. Why are you here? What is your purpose, and how do you live a good, happy life? 

[00:27:08] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:27:09] Toliy: Yeah, I just think that, like, the, uh, the less certainty that you have, you know, for your own life and, like, the le- the less stability that you have, over time you will ste- seek stability.

[00:27:21] Everyone needs stability. And the thing with a lot of these, like, um, um, you know- Let's just say, like sports teams or different, like, you know, whichever hobbies that you like, they have content engines out there that are built to grant you stability. They will always tell you what's going on every single day.

[00:27:43] You can bank on that. There's no like, "Hey," like, "We didn't post for like two, two days," for example. Like- They're 

[00:27:49] Eldar: consistent with this 

[00:27:50] Toliy: shit ... any UFC, NFL, NBA, they have a whole business behind keeping you informed of what's going on, and even when nothing's going on, they start doing these segments about thinking like every year they talk about who's the greatest NBA player of all time.

[00:28:05] Every single, for example, year. This happens every year during dead times. Yeah. Who's the best? 

[00:28:10] Eldar: They need to talk about something. 

[00:28:11] Toliy: And it's just that a, it's just what you're listening to ultimately is like something that no one will ever get to the bottom of because like- 

[00:28:17] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:28:17] Toliy: what's the, who's the best is like, there's no factual ways to measure who's the best.

[00:28:23] It's just opinion-based, like there's always gonna be the people who will say Jordan no matter what. There's gonna be people who say LeBron, for example, no matter what. There's gonna be, you know, some people who say someone else no, no matter what. And 

[00:28:34] Eldar: the con- 

[00:28:34] Toliy: And then it's just like- The conversation continues

[00:28:35] they're, yeah Forever ... it's just a continuous loop over and over again, but what happens is that you, like your mind almost like forgets about it, and it openly participates in this continuous loop- 

[00:28:47] Eldar: Do you 

[00:28:47] Toliy: think they- ... over and over again. 

[00:28:49] Eldar: Do they think, do you think that they know this, and they kind of like, "Oh, it doesn't matter because everybody kind, everyone's memory is shot anyway.

[00:28:55] We'll just redo it again because it's a hot topic"? 

[00:28:57] Toliy: Well, they definitely repost o- similar things. Yeah. And especially now with AI, you can just make content like- Yeah ... with like a, a- You 

[00:29:04] Eldar: can get away with it easily. 

[00:29:05] Toliy: You can get away with it either 'cause e- easily 'cause n- they can just change up a few things, but to me it's just like- 

[00:29:11] Eldar: You got enough

[00:29:11] Toliy: yeah, it's wild to participate in this repetitive ju- just like, again, over and over again. But I see how it's valuable because, yeah, if you don't know what to do, someone else out there is optimizing everything possible to tell you what, what to do, whether it's an influencer, whether it's like a sports league, whether it's like, whoever has their way of living life or of doing things, right?

[00:29:36] They will find a way to connect with you, and they will find a way over time to tell you what to do, and over and over that, that, that time span, you will willfully agree to it, and you will subscribe to doing what you're told. 

[00:29:50] Eldar: Yeah. And what pisses me off when it comes to this process is that a mind like Toliy's, which- I don't necessarily think is a complete mush, right?

[00:30:00] Uh, will go, come back, and then start re- regurgitating this stupid-ass information, these stupid-ass headlines outside of his own personal opinion, right? Where it's like he'll just tell me it, but like, "What's your take, bro?" You know what I mean? Like, he won't have one because th- they already did the take, and I'll throw him a quick argument or whatever and he's like, "Oh, shit. Yeah, you're right," or something like that. And then he realizes that he disagrees with the original take because I gave him something else to chew on. You know what I mean? And so what's-- what happens is you probably-- you pretty much become a copy of that which is being perpetually given to you.

[00:30:37] James: That's something that, that you mentioned that I noticed, the loop. There's always a loop. We're always in a constant loop because they're feeding us ideas, information. And going back to just AI and all this, just information in general, um, we misuse it most of the time. We don't really use technology to its capacity.

[00:30:54] Uh, we use it at a very minimal level. But it sounds like you had enough, and it kinda reminds me when I started taking notice to particular things or just had enough with particular things. You kinda have like a little fire in you where you wanna create some of that change and, like, you're, you're making a choice.

[00:31:12] 'Cause we get to choose all the time. I, I, I feel that. We have the ability to choose in different moments. So for example, the moment-- like, everything you're mentioning right now, I'm trying to go back to, because I don't think about... Like, I'm not even on social media. Uh, I don't think about these things at all.

[00:31:29] It does not occupy my life, doesn't occupy my mind for a very long time. And I didn't even have X until Eldar sent me a link to the podcast, right? And I went in on this, and I'm like, "This shit is wild." I'm like, "All this fucking information, all this shit people are spewing," right? It's just so quick, so much to process.

[00:31:51] And I'm like, I don't know how people are on this all day, all the time. The thing is because we've misused technology for a very long time, or whether it's propaganda or however they market you know, that, that's part of it. But we, we have the ability to, to choose when we're ready, and I think that usually happens kind of once we become attention of that loop 

[00:32:12] Toliy: you mentioned.

[00:32:12] But I also think that, like, the ability to actually consc- consciously choose is, um, a very rare, uh, occurrence. 

[00:32:21] James: I think once we get fed up, we have... There's a bunch of opportunities in the day where maybe we've gotten fed up or something is happening. We're always in and out of conscious awareness. We can't be aware 100% of the time all the time.

[00:32:35] Yeah, but- Especially when we're interacting, when we're engaging with individuals, but we're always

[00:32:41] have pockets. We always have pockets of opportunity to be aware. 

[00:32:45] Toliy: Yeah, but, but those, tho- those pockets I think in general are very rare and short-lived. Because yeah, you could I could have a fire, and I've had fire plenty of times, and then time happens. And because if you, i- if you live like most people and you're in some kind of, psychological or physical, for example, pain, which most people are, uh, they're, like, that, that kind of existence defaults to not being able to consciously think in the moment.

[00:33:18] And it only has just, like, very short windows where there's some kind of, like, either, like, realization or anger or just, like, motivation, whatever it is. But it's, I mean, I think it proves to be very short-lived. 

[00:33:32] Mike: So how, so what do you suggest for people? Like, you mentioned this is obviously very rare, hard to come by, but this problem exists, so what do you rec- recommend?

[00:33:39] How did, how did you come to this? How do you, how would you recommend somebody else to come to this or to get to take advantage of the opportunity? 

[00:33:46] Or it's dead. 

[00:33:48] Toliy: Huh. The, the thing is that a lot of it is that, like, if you sit somebody down and you say like, "Hey, James, we're about to have a conversation about this," and like, you know, like, you, like, set the mood and you kind of set, like, the expectation and you talk about something, I think anyone in that mo- moment has the ability to potentially, like, pay attention and to think.

[00:34:08] Eldar: 'Cause you lead them to reason. 

[00:34:09] Toliy: Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. And they can share that moment with you and be in reason. Okay. I think the, the issue is is that people don't have enough attention spanned, span because of how they live their life and before, and because of the choices that they make- 

[00:34:23] ... 

[00:34:23] Toliy: To extend that period for any long times.

[00:34:26] Mike: Okay. Sure. 

[00:34:26] Toliy: So what happens is that you just go to your regular pro- programming, and you know, like the, like the po- people are saying, like, "Ti- time heals all wounds," and it really does. Like- Whatever someone says is so bad, there's no way it's bad that second day, and there's no way it's bad, as bad that third day.

[00:34:47] And that, and like naturally, because of, again, distractions and because of just time, there's no way that you can feel the same way about that thing on day, for example, seven, that you did on day one. And there's no way that you really wake up every day and you remember that, and you really like, like you, you don't have that like, uh, like that guy that watches a video in the 50 first dates, like every day when he wakes up.

[00:35:11] Eldar: But literally that's what's happening. 

[00:35:12] Toliy: Uh, uh- I, I agree with you on that ... almost, yeah. Yeah. But it's, but it's like like no, no one thinks like that. You don't wake up and like, I don't know, recite all the things that's fucked up in their life or all the things that's good in their life and- Some people

[00:35:25] whatever it is. 

[00:35:26] James: Some people do. 

[00:35:26] Eldar: Oh, James. 

[00:35:27] Toliy: You know? 

[00:35:27] James: Stop it. 

[00:35:28] Toliy: Yeah, 

[00:35:28] James: but there's- No, but who- Most 

[00:35:29] Eldar: people don't, James. 

[00:35:30] James: No, I'm saying some people do. I'm not gonna rule out that like all people, I'm just being mindful of language as well, right? Well- Some, some people do ... 

[00:35:37] Toliy: what, of like they wake up and they make a list of everything bad in their life?

[00:35:40] James: Some people who suffer from pr- particular traumatic events or PTSD. Like, as, as soon as you mention that, like there's some people who are diagnosed with PTSD, they relive that traumatic moment. It feels just as bad. Well, no, 

[00:35:52] Toliy: sure, but uh, but they don't like have the same, like they don't have a vigilant routine to wake up every morning, for example, and like list everything that's bad and then they just...

[00:36:01] And like they, um, just sit there and, and dwell on that exact one thing. They may do that for periods of time, but like no one has that attention span or the focus, um, like, who- whoever it is, people who are suicidal, people who, um, don't like their life, or people who like hate a political party, I don't know, or like complain about something.

[00:36:23] Every you know, a, a, a m- lot of people don't like particular things, but

[00:36:28] James: You're saying they can't do that every day consistently? 

[00:36:30] Toliy: Yeah, no, no- 

[00:36:30] James: Everything's diluted with a lot of information. 

[00:36:32] Toliy: Over time. It's diluted, yes. Okay. Yeah, and just like, one day everyone's panicking about one thing, and then like obviously there's a content engine out there to dilute your mind and to take your attention.

[00:36:42] So you physically, like you can't have that level of focus as you had when that when you had that thought or like you, like something happened to you, right? Because like naturally time will change things and it is true. I guess to answer your question, Mike, is that like, I think it's difficult to progress on these things because, You have sold your attention to other entities.

[00:37:06] And to, to buy it back they like, they charge a lot more than what you sold it for. So I think you really need to save up enough capital to take ownership, like of it again, because they're not willing to give it to you. They're not willing to give it to you for the same price that you sold it for, and they make it a very expensive figure and make it very difficult- 

[00:37:31] Mike: Okay.

[00:37:31] Yeah, 

[00:37:31] Toliy: I get that ... to, to get this back. Sure. So I think that like, to me, the only way to solve this, it's a very difficult, I think, and vicious cycle because of how tired and fed up and just like overall in pain, I think mass society is. And it is just so easy to, like turn on the computer and play WoW, for example, no matter what's going on and just kind of like go into two hours in it or to, "Hey, the game's on," you know, or like this or that.

[00:38:00] It's, there's, there, there's so many things to just like kind of fall, fall into and it's so easy now to do so. It's not like you have to like ride a horse somewhere for like two days somewhere and travel to do something, you 

[00:38:12] Eldar: know? All right. Let me introduce this. Yes, I, I, I got the picture. So it almost, the, the issue is, James, I think that he's painting is between, the world of sports, gaming, or any kind of digital world is one world. Mm. But then you have to, after two hours of gaming and three hours of watching soccer, right? You have to go where? Come back where? To reality. You have 

[00:38:36] James: to ground yourself. 

[00:38:36] Eldar: Yes. No, no, no, no, no. 

[00:38:38] James: You don't have to ground 

[00:38:39] Eldar: yourself. Yeah. Chill with that one.

[00:38:40] Yeah, yeah. That's 

[00:38:40] James: the next 

[00:38:40] Eldar: stage. Yeah, yeah. Wait a second, James. Sorry, I'm- You come to reality and you look around, and it's dirty. You're like, "Oh, fuck. This is not done. I, I didn't do this. I forgot about this. I neglected this." And then you come to realize, like, "Ah, I don't wanna be here. What's the next game on?

[00:39:02] Oh, that. Okay, two hours more." And you just keep jumping in and out of these digital worlds or digital realms where the attention is captured, right? Or hijacked All so you don't have to fully unfocus on your own bullshit, right? Because your own bullshit is too much to do, too much work, I'm too lazy, ah this hurts too much, you know?

[00:39:24] So you just, you just escape. But the truth of the matter is you can't escape forever. You always have to come back to reality, right? 

[00:39:34] Toliy: Yeah, and their job is to optimize your escape, to kind of make your escape easier- Permanent ... and more accessible, and like- No ... you know, like- 

[00:39:42] James: I understand what you're saying and I get what 

[00:39:45] Eldar: you're saying as well.

[00:39:45] I- Yeah, listen, if they paid us, if they paid us to play video games, to watch sports, clean our house, and everything is done, we're down, right? Who wouldn't be down? You would be down, too. They're gonna take care of your kid, they're gonna take care of your wife. You, you're gonna be- you could just play soccer all day or watch soccer all day.

[00:40:00] But that's not the case. The case is you have to take out your fucking money and pay for shit that they're fucking, you know, putting in front of you, that they have ads for, commercials. You buy this pay-per-view, you buy that pay-per-view. You buy this jersey, you buy that nonsense, right? You are the one who's feeding that machine.

[00:40:17] Instead of them feeding you, you're just giving everything away. 

[00:40:20] James: I, I guess the way I see it, I, I, I think we complicate it a lot more than, within our minds and within ourselves. I don't think it's that, as complicated as, as people may think. I think- 

[00:40:31] Eldar: What is, what is complicated? 

[00:40:32] James: To tune out. To, to- 

[00:40:34] Eldar: Oh ... 

[00:40:34] James: to go back into reality- Mm-hmm, yeah

[00:40:36] to 

[00:40:36] Eldar: actually- Maybe 

[00:40:36] James: for you ... ground into reality. 

[00:40:37] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:40:38] James: Well, I, I've been doing a lot of stuff for a lot of years just internally. Yeah, 

[00:40:41] Eldar: yeah, yeah. 

[00:40:42] James: Right? Yeah. With meditation, all these different things. And just over the years, I just feel, like I was mentioning before, a lot of this just feels foreign to me, like going into social media or interacting within it.

[00:40:55] Or I, I just don't. I just remove the app- Well- ... or I just turn off the TV. Yeah. 

[00:40:59] Eldar: Maybe this example is not pertaining to you, James, but there's probably, uh, if we studied you a little bit longer, have been around you for a little bit longer, we can point out to the things that actually you're suffering from, that are actually taking away from you.

[00:41:11] It's just maybe not video games or sports or social media. 

[00:41:14] James: Oh I get that 100%. Yeah. There's still different aspects that- Yeah ... i'm navigating through suffering. But your attention is 

[00:41:19] Eldar: fucked, yeah. 

[00:41:19] James: For sure. 

[00:41:20] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:41:20] James: For sure, but it's not at the level of, like, social media. It's not crippling, yeah. It's not at the whim.

[00:41:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I still know particular things to come back into reality. 

[00:41:28] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:41:29] James: I just don't think it's as difficult or complex as we're making it seem. 

[00:41:34] Toliy: Well, no, like I, I disagree with- I think you underestimate it ... yeah, yeah, I was g- gonna say that, like I think you're under- underestimating it a bit a- a- as far as like it may not be crippling right now, but I think that if you were to pick apart- all different aspects of your life and all different reasons for you doing things or not doing things or like all, all those things whi- which obviously no- no one does.

[00:41:58] I think in those mo- moments it will feel crippling

[00:42:02] James: so more so like, yeah, if you cast a wider net naturally and zoom in on particular things, there's always gonna be particular things that you're suffering or you're at the helm or y- you're holding a crutch onto. 100%, I'm not negating that. All I'm saying is that I think this particular thing, I think it's easy to Shift your mind away from these things.

[00:42:27] And I think society, whether it's society, social media, to a degree has made us believe that it's harder to tune out and connect back to reality. 

[00:42:38] Eldar: The thing is, I, I think it's very difficult, James. I mean, maybe for me, maybe for you, maybe not for Toliy who's actually da- dabbling with this social media cleansing or whatever.

[00:42:47] Yeah. But I think y- you underestimate how hard it really is. I think that if you went right now, right, and took 100 kids from high school, right, and you said, "Hey, taking your phones away, and I'm only giving you an hour of your phone," I think you're gonna you're gonna get killed. 

[00:43:00] James: So I'm not saying that it's- They're gonna kill you

[00:43:02] so I'm also, so I'm also not saying it's not difficult for these individuals. 

[00:43:06] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:43:06] James: All I'm really saying is that I think we, we're complicating it more than it really is in our w- within our minds. But, but which part- And, and 

[00:43:14] Eldar: I- ... which part are we complicating? I don't understand that ... 

[00:43:16] James: I think because he's talking about attention and focus.

[00:43:19] Yeah. Because our attention and focus is everywhere, we believe because it's not grounded, we believe that it's very difficult. We're here, we're here, we're here. 

[00:43:27] Toliy: Well, 

[00:43:27] James: it is. But when we actually tune, actually come back for a little bit- Yeah ... it might be a little un- it's gonna be uncomfortable, absolutely, because you've gone so much time doing this or within this re- reality- But the, but the on-

[00:43:38] or digital world ... 

[00:43:39] Toliy: but the only thing I think that matters for anyone at any given point is what they perceive or what they believe. You know, like, if you were to, yeah, like if you, I don't know, if you were go to, like, an Amish farm and they never had a phone or n- or like, you know, I don't know, never had particular things, and they never were exposed to it, I think conceptually, I mean, I think everything is easy, right?

[00:44:00] Especially once you, once you can do something sure, like, everything is easy, right? But the only thing that actually matters to anybody is what they believe or what they perceive. And I think for almost everybody, this concept is incred- like the, the ability to put your attention to things and actually focus on something that you want to focus on, I think that is a very foreign skill to most people, and I think it's very difficult.

[00:44:31] Which is why I think that most people's lives progress extremely slow and extreme... in, in a lot of pain because they cannot focus on, like in in, in any way. I think that their, their whole mind has been hijacked. 

[00:44:47] Eldar: Yeah, I think that you underestimate the, the identities that we've built around some of these things and how people build their identities, social media identities, right?

[00:44:57] The likes, the comments, and all this other fucking crap that everybody's esteeming nowadays. That like, that's an identity and in order to let go of that attachment, you know attachments, right? I don't think it's lesser than being a drug addict and, and kicking that habit. 

[00:45:12] James: Oh, I, I, I'm not disagreeing.

[00:45:14] I'm not... Again, I'm 

[00:45:15] not 

[00:45:15] Eldar: disagreeing- Like, I think it's all these people are, are addicts. 

[00:45:17] Toliy: Yeah, and I, and I don't do... I don't... Again, I don't do Instagram, I don't do any of that. I'm just like a, like a lurker on X, and I just, like, read particular things, right? And those first few days I felt like a complete, like, drug addict.

[00:45:30] Like, I actually was having withdrawals. Like, I actually felt completely, like, weird. Like, I, like, I just felt bad. Like, I felt like like it's been like, I don't know, like... Well, it's been X amount of time, and I haven't, I, like, I don't even know what's going on. Like, the, there, the- Yeah ... there's trade deadlines.

[00:45:45] Like, there's, uh- Yeah. ... there's moves being made. Like, there's- Yeah ... just stuff going on out there, and I don't know- And you know about it ... yeah, and, and knowing about it, I realized gave me a, like, a feeling of peace. 

[00:45:56] Eldar: Hm. Yeah. 

[00:45:56] Toliy: A- actually kn- just, just knowing what's going on, and I had extended periods of time where, where I was like, "Oh, shit," like, "I don't know what's going on."

[00:46:04] And I felt actually uneasy from that.

[00:46:07] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:46:07] Toliy: So I can only imagine people that are really on social media like that and people who are- Well, then imagine the 

[00:46:11] Eldar: teens, the younger generation, 

[00:46:13] Toliy: right? Yeah. Yeah, like, yeah, for them, I would say it's, like, completely a crippling, 

[00:46:20] Eldar: like, reality. You've built your identity around this little...

[00:46:21] imagine a social circle, right? 

[00:46:23] James: I understand. So because 

[00:46:25] Eldar: you- Like, just to remove yourself from that, bro, holy shit, I could only imagine how crippling that is. 

[00:46:29] James: So- Yeah ... so my thought is, right, because you talk about pain, right? This is why we're doing this, because of pain. Or it's one of the, the reasons why we, we jump into different digital worlds or identities, right?

[00:46:39] For you specifically, 'cause I can't speak for anyone else or the idea of it what is l- stopping you from tackling your pain head-on or navigating through it? 

[00:46:49] Toliy: I mean- 

[00:46:51] James: Like, what, what is it really? De- depending when. 

[00:46:52] Toliy: Like, everything. 

[00:46:54] James: But what's... if you're really to think about it, slow down, like, ruminate about it.

[00:46:58] Toliy: Well, 

[00:46:58] James: no- Not just, like, have a quick, like, response ... yeah. If you're actually able to sit with it, like right now- 

[00:47:03] Toliy: Well, no, but the, but- ... but in those moments, like yeah, nothing is. But those moments are, are, uh- 

[00:47:08] James: Nothing's giving you pain- 

[00:47:10] Toliy: Like- ... 

[00:47:10] James: in those moments? 

[00:47:11] Toliy: No. No, it's- 

[00:47:12] James: When you, when you're actually sitting 

[00:47:12] Toliy: down

[00:47:12] no, I... Yeah. Well, l- but I have, But the ability to focus on that kind of level and sit down and do is very difficult, and it's also very difficult on different topics to face particular things and to overcome particular fears or overcome particular ways of doing things or overcome, like yeah, like, your natural order of operations as to, like, how you operate or how you do.

[00:47:37] Eldar: So James, I think that in order to solve what he's saying in the most simplest way- ... you have to think about what he just said. He said, "Bro, if I don't have the news about the sports- Yeah ... I am not in peace." Correct. You understand that? 

[00:47:50] James: Yes, 

[00:47:50] Eldar: I do. That's a crazy phenomenon. That knowing all that crap that filled his mind- 

[00:47:57] James: Yeah

[00:47:58] Eldar: the, the stupid shit, right? For 

[00:47:59] James: sure. 

[00:48:00] Eldar: Brought him some sort of peace. So trying to come out out of that, why would you in- first inflict more pain upon yourself? Mm-hmm. You have to completely rewire it and see things differently now. They're like, "Oh, why am I promoting these motherfuckers? Why do I need this shit?"

[00:48:15] You know what I mean? Like, I need to promote myself. Yeah. You have to convince yourself of that, and I think that's a process. For sure. 

[00:48:21] Toliy: Yeah, it's like- Which- ... if someone's, like, considering, for example, like jumping off a bridge- 

[00:48:25] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:48:26] Toliy: and you're talking him down from that, right? Just because you talked him down, for example, from jumping off that bridge at one time, it does not me- ob- obviously does not mean that they solved whatever issue- Right

[00:48:36] it is there. And to summon, like you could definitely summon that for a moment and really think about it for a moment, and it w- and it would seem so obvious, like, like you, you could probably get to the point of where like, "I can't believe that I, I even like did that or wanted that," or like whatever it was, right?

[00:48:53] But the actual work it takes to fundamentally shift that, like thinking and that ideology and just like what led... it took so much to lead you to that place, it's gonna take even more to come out of it and to think in a different way and to operate in like a different way, and that's what I'm talking about, is that.

[00:49:12] Eldar: I thi- I, yeah, I, I don't think you, you, uh, maybe we didn't raise enough awareness about it, but I think that that identity is so ingrained at this point, especially if you went through it, through your teenage years, 20s and 30s or whatever. It's an established identity. 

[00:49:27] Toliy: Yeah, like you, you do things particular ways, right?

[00:49:30] You think about things particular ways. You are a particular type of person. We, we all are, right? And if you had a desire to change that, I think it would be very, very difficult for you to change any of those things about yourself. Because all, all those unconscious pathways you have and all those unconscious ways of thinking and, uh, and like, there's so much that even when you have a desire to do something that you haven't even considered or that you haven't even crossed yet that needs thinking and then needs shifting and that needs changing, that it requires a ton of attention to have extended periods of time of thinking where you can even grasp any of this.

[00:50:13] But the difficulty is that if you're a person in pain, which I think most people are, you just don't really have any kind of time. You don't really have any en- energy. You don't really have any, like... you already have so many mental commitments and responsibilities and uh, and attachments that the thought of detaching or thinking about any of these things is incredibly, incredibly difficult.

[00:50:39] So to me, it's always like a, um, chicken or the egg scenario here of figuring out how do you extend your attention span, how do you extend your thinking, how do you extend long enough so that you can buy enough of your attention span back to actually do anything and not slowly regress back into your, your, um, unconscious operating system.

[00:51:04] James: So I know there's a process to rewire, right? There's a process, and it takes increments, right? And it becomes extending or expanding in general. That I understand. All I'm saying is maybe there are some challenges we navigate, and in the moment as we're navigating through them, it appears extremely difficult because in that moment or in within those times that we're navigating or in it, it's pa- ingra-ingrained, as you mentioned, within our identity.

[00:51:32] So therefore, in that moment, it seems very difficult to separate that. But I think once you get past a certain point, as you rewire, go through the process, you really develop a different mindset and maybe use different words, right? They have NLP, right? Neuro-linguistic. Um, forgot. NLP, neuro-linguistic, um- I don't remember the, the last w- letter for that, but programming, right?

[00:52:00] Where you're rewiring your brain, right? The firing, the shifts through words. I think once you start rewiring and getting to a certain point or understanding as you're s- dipping your toe back into reality little by little, then you're finally setting your ground into reality. You're stepping on there.

[00:52:17] Then you're fully immersed, and it's, it's kinda like being a baby again. You're, you're kind of being reborn, right? You're learning how to walk. But 

[00:52:23] Toliy: that process is extremely, is extremely difficult. 

[00:52:24] James: Right now it appears to be difficult, but 

[00:52:26] Toliy: what I'm saying- No, but the only thing that... No, but it, it, I mean, like, everything is, like, simple though, right?

[00:52:31] No, no one's gonna ev- Yeah, just feel that, like, you're coming from a place of, like, giving an example of someone that, like, um Isn't operating from pain. So like, if someone was not operating from pain, yes, it would be very s- simple and in retrospect a lot of different things that like we've all done at one point were hard and then anoth- another point for example were very easy, right?

[00:52:58] But the, um, the, uh, the moment that like matters at that time is usually a very difficult- 

[00:53:06] James: I guess because what I'm saying is because we have so much attachments in that moment that's connected to that identity or those digital worlds the, the pain can feel immense, but once we actually detach or let go of those things, we, we honestly- So 

[00:53:19] Eldar: then we're talking about a different time period.

[00:53:22] Toliy: Yes, that's what I'm saying is that like- 

[00:53:23] Eldar: Yeah, you're talking about the fact that when you finally realize, you break through, you realize hindsight that age is saying shit, 

[00:53:29] James: right? So for me, like my, my philosophy and, and we can not talk about it, but-

[00:53:38] Yeah, we're not talking about it ... in, in my mind I think it's all inter- interconnected because I feel everything's happening now. And when you actually develop that awareness you start realizing how interconnected the world actually is. And then you're able to see where actually in that moment- i, I was living in that moment, right?

[00:53:52] It, it appeared because I wasn't w- in reality. You don't- I was so 

[00:53:56] out 

[00:53:56] Eldar: of tune ... J- James, you don't understand how many people you just lost. Okay. Okay? I agree with you. Yeah. But the ability to have that kind of attention, to pay attention to that thought what you just said- Yeah ... is the fact that they cannot follow it.

[00:54:08] Okay. They can't get there what you just explained. Okay. You said, "Hey, everything actually is not before there or whatever time." You just brought it and you said now. I agree with this. 

[00:54:19] Toliy: Correct. And, and, yeah, and I can agree with that- 

[00:54:21] Eldar: Yes ... 

[00:54:21] Toliy: on any topic that doesn't have to do with myself at that moment, right?

[00:54:25] At the, at the moment. So if you call us or you say something like, "Hey, I'm suffering from this"- 

[00:54:30] Eldar: Okay ... 

[00:54:30] Toliy: to me in my mind, like right away to me I'm like, "James, that's not shit. We easily tackled that like no problem. This is easy as hell. Like, you're making a mountain out of a molehill." But to the person who's sick at that time- 

[00:54:42] Eldar: Yeah

[00:54:43] Toliy: nobody can, n- not one person here can think in that kind of way when you're sick at that time. Com- compromised. But when you're looking at my problems- 

[00:54:50] James: Yeah ... 

[00:54:51] Toliy: my problems could be extremely simple for you at that time for you, while they're very complicated for me, or vice versa, your problems could be snap of the fingers for me, but for you extremely difficult.

[00:55:03] And I think that when we're when we're talking about this is that, like, the, the line- You know, and I, 

[00:55:08] Eldar: and I'll explain to you, I'll explain why. That's a very good point, Toliy. And the reason for that is, is because in that moment, Toliy 

[00:55:15] Toliy: is the- Perception is reality ... 

[00:55:15] Eldar: Toliy is perceiving.

[00:55:17] Correct. He's not experiencing. Correct. Okay? Yes. Correct. You, who let's just say the subject who's actually suffering, okay, has a backlog of why you're suffering in that moment- Correct ... but also have 1,000 reasons how you got here. 

[00:55:31] James: Correct. 

[00:55:32] Eldar: Toliy in that moment does not have any of that. Mm-hmm. Have no baggage.

[00:55:36] He's Toliy. Yeah. He has no baggage, so he can look at your situation very objectively without a horse in the race and say, "Just move these pieces, bro." And to you it's like, "Wait a second. What do you mean move these pieces? But what about these other pieces?" Correct. Correct. So this is what he's trying to explain.

[00:55:49] Toliy: Yeah, that in the moment the perception is actually the reality for that per- person. It doesn't mean that it's the actual reality. True. 

[00:55:56] Eldar: Correct. 

[00:55:57] Toliy: And when you're already out of it- Yeah, so Nate, if you're 

[00:55:59] Eldar: listening, you're an 

[00:55:59] Toliy: idiot ... and you're, yeah when you're in hindsight already or when you're past it or when you conquered something, like to me, yeah, like, a, an actual reality thing is that nothing is actually hard or easy.

[00:56:10] It's only hard or easy, for example, at certain times. Yeah. That's just the reality of it, is that nothing is difficult or nothing is easy. It just depends on when, right? 

[00:56:20] Eldar: That, 

[00:56:20] James: that's all I was trying to establish. 

[00:56:21] Eldar: Well, yes- Yeah ... but the thing is we, because- That's it ... the fact that you didn't sh- show the distinction between that timeline- 

[00:56:26] Toliy: Yeah

[00:56:27] if- You're not, y- like the way that you're talking is that, like, you're, like, you're, like, almost being arrogant to the people that are suffering at that time that cannot get out of their hell in that moment, and you're, like like downplaying it in the way that- Downplaying it ... you were, like- Right, that's the word.

[00:56:43] Yeah ... like speaking about it. 

[00:56:43] James: It's very real. I'm, I'm- 

[00:56:45] Toliy: Well, we're- ... not 

[00:56:46] James: trying to downplay 

[00:56:47] anything. 

[00:56:47] Eldar: I know. Y- the thing is- ... yes. 

[00:56:49] James: It's extremely real. 

[00:56:50] Eldar: Yeah. Well, if you listen to it over- I think we're not, we're not saying it's not real. Yeah. We're not, we did not, we're not disagreeing with you that it's not real.

[00:56:56] It is real But the difference is, is that you are able to zoom in into that moment of the now and say, "Yo, guys, this is ain't shit." But the truth is, those people cannot. You might be able to do it for them, with them, in that moment- For sure ... for a short period of time. 

[00:57:13] James: Correct. 

[00:57:14] Eldar: Correct. And then they have to go home.

[00:57:15] James: Yeah. 

[00:57:16] Eldar: And face the skeletons. A- a- and go 

[00:57:17] James: through the process, rewiring- 

[00:57:18] Eldar: Grow ... 

[00:57:18] Toliy: navigate- Yeah, and sa- ... do their 

[00:57:19] Eldar: work 

[00:57:19] Toliy: Yeah. 100%. And same thing that when you're in the moment- And that 

[00:57:21] Eldar: is fucking hard. 

[00:57:22] Toliy: Yeah if you're in the moment of suffering and you call somebody and you need help, the person on the phone can't just say like, "Hey, James, just forget about that.

[00:57:29] Don't worry about it." So- "It's not that important." 

[00:57:31] James: So, 

[00:57:31] Toliy: right? You're not gonna just be able to be like, "You know what, man? It's not that important." 

[00:57:35] James: So- You 

[00:57:36] Toliy: know? ... 

[00:57:36] James: I guess what I'm trying to, trying to say, like that's what I was trying to establish. I'm not saying I'm, I'm in the mud with people every day, navigating through pain.

[00:57:44] It's, it, it's very real. The, the, the thing I was really just trying to show is that once you go further into that process, you really see, once you're there it's not really as challenging or as difficult as what it appeared. Well, but yeah, like all things. And it does take wor- it, yeah, that's all, I wanted to make sure.

[00:58:00] Once you're over the 

[00:58:00] Toliy: hump- Yeah ... 

[00:58:01] James: once 

[00:58:01] Toliy: you're over the hump, again, like, yeah, like doing ev- anything feels relatively easy for you at that time only, right? If I said, for example, like, "Hey, James, all you have to do right now is watch your kid," right? You may say, "Okay, yeah, no problem. I can do that." But then if I'm like, "Okay, you also have to juggle this, and while doing that, you also have to hop in place," well, now something that you might have said like, "Hey, like yeah, I can do this," or like may- maybe something is easy for you, you start putting different pieces together, now that task anymore is now no, no, no longer easy.

[00:58:39] So I think a lot of people in general, because they have given away a piece of themselves to all of these different exterior things, everything is difficult, because they have no like, um- Too 

[00:58:53] Eldar: many things to juggle ... 

[00:58:53] Toliy: yeah, they have too many things to juggle, and now that simple thing of like, "Hey, sit down, I don't know, for 30 minutes-" Don't do nothing

[00:59:01] and do that one th- yeah. Or don't, yeah. Don't do nothing. Don't do anything, or just do like one thing, it feels impossible because your mind has already been adjusted to race and to multitask and to think about everything, and you've committed to so many different things. And I think also that's why people do, you know, drugs or alcohol or do particular things.

[00:59:24] It's to, i- it's to, again, escape. It's part of like the most difficult thing to do in general, is to face yourself, and to face yourself and to face the things that you've committed to and the ideations that, that, that you have, is difficult. When you have w- when you have noth- like nothing to almost give because the, the individual there has spread himself so loose amongst all the different things and donated all kinds of pieces to all these different hobbies and aspects of life that there's just not enough of you left to, to pay attention to something.

[01:00:02] So to me, the, um, the main argument that I'm trying to make is that because it's stemming most likely from like pain and not understanding their purpose or not understanding why they're here in this world or not understanding what to do or how to navigate life, I think humans are built to naturally be curious, to naturally find out, and by one way or another people cannot live not knowing what to like do.

[01:00:31] It's very difficult and very painful for extended period of times to be in like an unknown kind of like mindset. So you have to get to something. You have to find some kind of safe island to, um, to make home. 

[01:00:45] James: I guess then maybe this question will help more. I'm not sure. What can we do to allow people to embrace the pain more or embrace- 

[01:00:55] Eldar: Well-

[01:00:56] James: stepping into these things? I got it. 

[01:00:57] Eldar: I got it. So that's a very good question, and I think that it starts with raising awareness, and the raising awareness starts with understanding the different identities that we go into when we are experiencing this life. Obviously, when we're sitting down here right now, like Toliy said, because we're sitting down here right now, we have able to tune in and be present in this moment to think about the things we talk about.

[01:01:20] It is easier for us to say, "You know what? Yeah, time doesn't exist. It's the now. We can solve whatever, and everything is easy." That is us being the observer. That is us being the solver of the problems. The- but then, don't make mistake. You're gonna go out into the world, and you become the experiencer who experiences the world and all the variables that are in it, and the person who's experiencing it is no longer the same person that was solving it here right now.

[01:01:52] Okay? So there's a big distinction between the two, and I think that what we need to do, to answer your question, is we need to raise awareness about that fact and the fact that if we paid more attention like this, right? In these types of moments and having these types of conversations, right? Or in thinking, we're then gonna be able to take a little bit more ammo and a little bit more protection into the experiencing world in order to handle it properly.

[01:02:18] But because we don't, right? All that shit hits like floodgates into us, all these variables, and we're like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa." Well, no, 

[01:02:27] Toliy: because 

[01:02:27] Eldar: we don't- And then we glitch ... 

[01:02:28] Toliy: be- because we don't, the exterior world's like, "Hey, don't worry. I got you." 

[01:02:32] Eldar: And then the... Yeah. Yeah. And then, yeah. And then because of the fact that you don't know how to handle the exter- exterior world, right?

[01:02:37] The low-hanging fruit is easy. Alcohol, drugs, sex, sports, all that stuff that can become rampant and become, uh, an addiction becomes very easy. 

[01:02:50] James: Okay. 

[01:02:50] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:02:52] James: So that's exactly part of kinda what I was trying to, to mention. I know we all get flooded with, with all these things, these emotions, feelings because of that distinction you guys are mentioning, the observer and the experiencer.

[01:03:08] So how do we capture the tension, attention? Apologies. 

[01:03:14] Toliy: We have to slowly take it back. But- Okay ... the difficulty is that, like, we're also like- it's, um, it's very difficult to grasp your mind around how much of yourself and your mind you've gi- give- given away to out- to external factors.

[01:03:36] So it's like when you're trying to solve this, you don't actually know to the extent of how bad it is or are you picking up 100 pieces? Are you trying to find 500 pieces? Are you trying to find a million pieces, right? It's not like a thing of like, hey, hey James, like, you, you broke yourself in 10 different ways.

[01:03:53] You just have to collect these 10 and, and you're good. You're back to normal, and you've regained yourself, and now you have ownership over your mind and yourself. The, um, the difficulty is figuring out, well, what have you committed to? What are all these unconscious processes and ways of thinking do you have?

[01:04:11] How many different... Like, how much is there? And I think as you try to, like, think about this nav- and navigate through it, I think over time you constantly find more and more and more information, right? As you get more and more information and, um It takes a lot to figure out, I guess like, yeah, like how, how much do you have to get back?

[01:04:35] 'Cause like you... It's not a situation where you know for a fact you paid 20 bucks for this and you're gonna get refunded $20. You actually don't n- Like, if you go on this journey, you actually don't know how much you've given away. So it's very difficult to find out how much do you have to get back or how do you go about getting it back.

[01:04:56] It's, I mean, it's a very, I think, difficult process and like at least like this first week for, for me on different days has been extremely difficult for like, again, like... and again, like wh- when I obviously s- have the ability to think about things and like, um, And anyone's gonna be like, "Hey, like, are you actually willing to care more?"

[01:05:22] I guess, I don't know, let's just say people who care about the Yankees a lot, right? Are you actually... Do you, like, do you actually care more about the Yankees than like yourself? I think in the moment of thought people are like, "No, I mean, of, of course I care about myself more." But if you look at their actions, you're actually gonna see that, that they care about themselves nowhere near as much as they care about all these other things, about how other people think about them, about influencers, what's cool, what's not cool, this or that.

[01:05:50] And when you think about that, it like, it's almost a crazy thing. It's like how is it possible for you to not care as as much about you as you actually should do, right? And you actually, I think, grow to see that the things that you subscribe to, you're actually convinced that they like, they actually probably show more attention th- to you than you, you do.

[01:06:16] And I think that that kind of like realization to me is like a crazy one about like your, like you, you agree to give up like your, like yourself.

[01:06:30] To like scatter yourself across all of these things, and I think very rarely do people actually do th- do things out of like, hey, like they're all good. They've done all they have to do, and, um, they're truly just like in a moment of relaxation and just like enjoying something or like enjoying a show or just like doing something, and they're just there for that moment, and then they leave it.

[01:06:55] And they're just able to do that thing for that time and enjoy it, and then not carry that away with, with them to go. So yeah that to me is like a crazy thing, and like, yeah, like the, the first few days of thinking about this, to me they were absolutely like baffling. Like I couldn't believe it.

[01:07:14] I couldn't believe And I know that social media-wise, people have it like, 10, 20X more than I do, but to me, I cannot believe that people are willfully and are, um, giving away themselves. 

[01:07:29] Eldar: But they don't know though, you know? They 

[01:07:30] Toliy: don't 

[01:07:30] Eldar: know, yeah. Like I, I don't think if- They don't know, yeah

[01:07:32] I don't think the word willfully is a can be used here, this word 

[01:07:36] Toliy: willfully. Well, yeah. Yeah, 

[01:07:37] Eldar: it's like- If you broke it down like this- 

[01:07:39] Toliy: Yeah. They, they one day made particular choices to follow- Yeah ... and to do particular- Yeah, yeah ... things slowly over time. 

[01:07:45] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:07:46] Toliy: But yeah, like- They 

[01:07:47] Eldar: got captured, yeah ... 

[01:07:48] Toliy: yeah, but like again, like you see how people act and how they do things.

[01:07:51] Like they are not thinking individuals. They can't critically think. They can't like, they don't know, like they don't know how many millions there are in a billion.

[01:08:04] Eldar: Yeah, yeah. Um- How many millions in a billion? Or- 

[01:08:08] Toliy: And, and, and the, um, to, to me, one really large variable from people like one huge, I feel like, obstacle that society has to tackle these things is the way that we communicate through language, right?

[01:08:26] To me is a huge obstacle. Because one word or one phrase can mean a million different things, but all people say it the same way. 

[01:08:40] Eldar: Yeah, like- 

[01:08:40] Toliy: People say the word like, "Yeah, I just wanna be happy," for example. Okay? That's just one phrase, but the way that we communicate is that, like, what's defined by that and what that actually means, nobody actually agrees upon who's talking about it.

[01:08:57] They're all using the same word or they're all using the same phrase but everybody has a different idea completely as to what that actually is and, and no one's actually truly sure if that's actually it. So I feel like that's a huge obs- obstacle because these very, like the human language is very basic in that kind of way of communication of like,

[01:09:19] Eldar: Is it just, is it the, is it the human language itself or is it our inability to communicate or use it?

[01:09:24] Toliy: Pr- yeah, pro- probably our, like it's too simplistic in the way that it's used probably. Like it's too- 

[01:09:30] Eldar: So it's our use of it. 

[01:09:31] Toliy: Yeah, pro- prob- 

[01:09:32] Eldar: Like the language is not the problem, it's the, our use of the language. 

[01:09:35] Toliy: Pro- probably, yeah. Like, yeah. Okay. Our use of the language. Yeah. But j- but just like- 

[01:09:41] Eldar: To deliver, to deliver what we actually mean- 

[01:09:42] Toliy: Yeah

[01:09:42] or what we actually feel. Yeah, it's just... Yeah. Okay. Like even again, the most basic thing that people say every day, "Hey, how are you doing?" What do people say? Pretty good," or, "Good." But what that actually means is like- What everyone is just good? What does your good mean? What does your good mean?

[01:10:00] What, what, what does that mean that you- 

[01:10:01] Eldar: And how are you actually doing? Yeah. Is it really 

[01:10:03] Toliy: true? Yeah and but that one word it means so much in, in so many different ways. So I feel like because of that, there's almost not like a raising of alarms, right? Because like imagine you had to substitute these basic phrases or these basic words, and everyone actually had to list or say exactly what's going on every single time.

[01:10:25] In- instead. That would just cause like mass chaos. 

[01:10:30] James: It's, it is crazy what you're mentioning and, and I could feel that. And I think once we raise more awa- awareness or be- begin to experience and observe fi- figuring out that balance in the world as we rewire, I, I think we start adopting a new language, a, a new way of communication or understanding that can really hit us or ground us within reality a little bit more.

[01:10:53] Like these conversations, 

[01:10:54] Eldar: for example, right? Well, yeah, I, I think these types of conversations, I think that, I think they shoo- at least shoot in the right direction of trying to figure out what the fuck is going on. 

[01:11:01] For 

[01:11:01] James: sure. 

[01:11:01] Eldar: Without, with us, with our condition, the human condition, and how can we fix it if we can, but I think that, yeah, it's, it's still an uphill battle overall, but rightfully so. I think it, it's deservant of it. It's a, it's a, it's a necessary, it's necessary work. It's hard work. And it has to be done. Or I mean, it doesn't have to be done. I mean, at the end of the day, I mean, it has to be done for Toli, for example, because Toli's living a very specific experience.

[01:11:30] He wants to accomplish specific things, and he realizes that he's in shackles, and he needs to free himself. 

[01:11:37] James: I guess if there's anything to share about- 

[01:11:39] Eldar: Plenty of people listen to this shit be like, "Fuck you, man." Probably. "Put on my fucking sports. Give me my fucking sports. I don't wanna hear this shit," which is okay.

[01:11:47] Yeah. That's their journey. That's what they're on. You know what I mean? Doesn't mean that they're gonna have a good relationships, right? The whole fucking world might be upside down. Doesn't mean that they're responsible, good adults or good parents, right? But they might not need this at this time. It's just not their time.

[01:12:10] Угу And a lot of people, I think, have to continue to hit their head against that same wall, you know, to one day say, like, "Wait a second, this hurts. What do I do here? Why am I doing this?" 

[01:12:21] Toliy: Yeah, I mean, in parenthood, it's like a constant thing. It's like you, you don't actually know, for example, what to do when your kid is crying or complaining, for example.

[01:12:29] James: So 

[01:12:29] Toliy: what, what- If you're not paying 

[01:12:30] James: attention, if you're not aware. 

[01:12:31] Toliy: Well, like I'm, I'm saying that like- Bad example, Toliy. What? 

[01:12:33] Eldar: Bad example. 

[01:12:34] James: Well, no, 

[01:12:34] Toliy: no, I'm saying that like- No, there are 

[01:12:35] James: moments, but- 

[01:12:36] Toliy: Well, no, but I'm saying that like certain parents don't know what to do when particular circumstances ha- happen.

[01:12:43] And what's a, a very known thing that, for example, parents do? They hand their kid the iPad, and they're like, "Oh, shit." What does that, like, teach them over time? Is that like, "Hey, this annoying ass fucking crying ass kid that's fucking yelling and causing a stir," rather than understanding what's going on or understanding how to properly speak to them or explain to them or to communicate or to do things properly.

[01:13:08] A person who's in pain and stress, they could just do this, hand over the iPad, turn on the TV. That is a billion times easier than understanding what's actually going on and being able to actually do the right thing and to act correctly. And yeah, eventually, over time, when they see how easy that, that was the first time, even people who are against it are like, "Yeah, I'm not doing that.

[01:13:32] Like, I, like it's bad. You know, I don't wanna raise my kids on this or that." Naturally so, a person who can't pay attention, a person that doesn't have attention span, time, energy, they have to work 12 hours a day, plus then they gotta come home, and they gotta cook, or they gotta clean, they gotta do this or that.

[01:13:49] The last thing that they're gonna be able to do is sit there and pay attention and understand what's happening and have even a desire to figure out what's happening. When you can just turn on that TV, I mean, that is so easy, right? 

[01:14:01] Eldar: I have a question. 

[01:14:02] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:14:03] Eldar: Sometimes I come home, and I'm in the state of maybe I'm tired or whatever, but Penny and Archie come to me, and they, they, you know, they're crying.

[01:14:11] They want my attention, and maybe I don't have it in me. Yeah. So what I do is I give them the yogurt treat. Yeah. The little Ballie. So does that apply, apply, applies the same way as giving a tablet to a kid when giving a, a dog a, a Ba- a yogurt Ball? No. Well, 

[01:14:25] Toliy: I think m- pro- probably. Like, like naturally you don't have the time or- I 

[01:14:29] Eldar: wanna know how, how to feel about this right now.

[01:14:30] Toliy: Like, yeah. Like you don't, you at that time are either tired or you're exhausted- Yeah ... or you're just like in pain. 

[01:14:36] Eldar: Yeah, 

[01:14:36] Toliy: yeah. So yeah, like it's really easy to give them a peanut butter or some kind of- 

[01:14:40] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:14:40] Toliy: treat or, yeah Because they're 

[01:14:41] Eldar: also pretty addicted to this yogurt treat. 

[01:14:42] Toliy: Yes. Same way that the kids are always down to watch TV, right?

[01:14:45] Yeah. Or look at the iPad. Yeah. Like, no one's gonna be like, "No, Dad, I actually want you to figure this out." 

[01:14:50] Eldar: Yeah. "And 

[01:14:50] Toliy: I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna watch this iPad." Yeah. "You're gonna figure out why I'm crying and- Yes ... and help me." 

[01:14:54] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:14:54] Toliy: You know? 

[01:14:55] Eldar: Yeah. They fall 

[01:14:56] Toliy: into 

[01:14:56] Eldar: it. Like, 

[01:14:56] Toliy: yeah. Yeah. Yeah, again, so naturally the parent who's tired and sleep deprived and, has too much on their plate- They're gonna- 

[01:15:06] Eldar: Who hasn't figured it out

[01:15:08] Toliy: yeah. They're g- they're gonna go to the lowest hanging fruit and the easiest things every single time. I think very rare are parents actually patient enough and have enough energy consistently to act in maybe proper ways or to do those kinds of things, and people are the same way, it's it's very hard, I think, in general, to get out of this type of loop because of how many attachments and how many ways of thinking and how many non- like non-conscious ways of operation that you've committed yourself to.

[01:15:41] And finding out the scope of this is just like- 

[01:15:45] Eldar: Let me ask you this question. Yeah. I know how hard it is. It sounds very hard

[01:15:54] Is the kicker to get out has to be higher level of, um, I guess the goal of the person who's trying to get out has to supersede themselves? Has to be... Do you understand what I'm saying? 

[01:16:11] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:16:11] Eldar: Where it has to be, like, maybe a selfless goal- A higher, like a higher 

[01:16:14] Toliy: purpose 

[01:16:14] Eldar: than- A higher purpose Yeah Is that the way to get out?

[01:16:17] And does that have to be one of the kickers to get out or... Yeah, yeah, that's the question. 

[01:16:24] Toliy: Yeah, I don't know. 

[01:16:25] Eldar: Let's just say the, like- Yeah ... let's just say the, uh, Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Those who are familiar with it, right? The highest, you know, goes from, you know, the basic needs, right? Yeah. The, the food, the shelter, the safety and all the stuff.

[01:16:38] Then it goes to friendship. Yeah. Then it goes to love, and then the final one, I believe, it's the self-actualization, right? Do the people that are trying to get out have to even understand that that exists in the first place? That, or even have that in their goal in order to be able to truly get out?

[01:16:58] That's a great question. 

[01:16:59] Mike: I don't think there's any other way to get out, but without, throughout, without, like, a- 

[01:17:03] Eldar: That type of goal. 

[01:17:04] Mike: No, no, you cannot get out not using the truth. 

[01:17:07] Eldar: Okay, okay, okay, wait. 

[01:17:08] Mike: In order to, to, 

[01:17:08] Eldar: like- don't minimize my question. 

[01:17:10] Mike: No, I'm... That's what I'm saying. In order to actually access the truth, you have to understand, like, that, what you're talking about.

[01:17:15] Eldar: Okay. So you... All right. So you're 

[01:17:16] Mike: the co-sign guy here. The only thing that can get you out of that is actually something real genuine. 

[01:17:19] Eldar: I agree, but listen to how I said it. Like, does that have to be the goal though? Like, right? Like, where it's like I agree with you that it definitely has to be the truth, but has the, h- does this truth have to be also attached to- How can you 

[01:17:30] Mike: attach to, to the truth without setting a goal?

[01:17:33] Eldar: Okay, so you're saying that, that's a by-product. 

[01:17:34] Mike: It's in- I think 

[01:17:35] Eldar: it's inherent Okay. It's in- it's inherent. 

[01:17:36] Mike: Or my guess. My g- my thought 

[01:17:37] Eldar: No, I think you're right. 

[01:17:38] James: I think I agree, I agree with you on that 

[01:17:40] Mike: one. 

[01:17:40] Eldar: Yeah. So it's fucking over for people, bro. Think about this, right? If you, if you're not even aware of that, right?

[01:17:46] That there's, like, a deeper purpose to your existence, right? Like, actually deeper. Like, and you're constantly pondering it, right? It's over for you. 

[01:17:56] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:17:56] Eldar: You're gonna be enslaved. 

[01:17:58] Mike: Yeah. That's why, that's why my question was how do you, how does somebody come out of this? How do you come out of what a human is experiencing?

[01:18:04] Only through education. But how do you educate a person who's under the impression they're already educated enough- Okay, well, there, there- ... that they've already figured it out? 

[01:18:11] Eldar: That one you won't. That's the one that you don't- 

[01:18:13] Mike: Yeah ... 

[01:18:13] Eldar: concentrate 

[01:18:14] Mike: on. But the thing is you do what you do because of pain, right?

[01:18:19] Let's just say that's the reason you go and you search for the pain relief in whichever forms you find it. Yeah. And you choose consciously or sub- unconsciously, I don't know. M- more it's like you put your hand in the fire and it hurts. You don't think like, "Oh, this is painful. Uh, I think I should remove my hand."

[01:18:37] It just, you go in and you go out. There's no anything. This is a primitive instinct, it's a survival instinct. How do you then change that instinct which you have for pain relief, right? Inability to solve your problems, to then use a conscious effort. It's like- Yeah ... again, it's a fucking question we ask every time.

[01:18:54] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:18:55] Mike: How do you go to turn your mind on to think differently? 

[01:18:58] Eldar: Yes. 

[01:18:58] Mike: To the... Is this a chicken... How the chicken or the egg? It's such a 

[01:19:02] Eldar: like- Because when you turn it on, like you said, if you are f- uh, looking for the truth- 

[01:19:06] Mike: Yeah ... 

[01:19:06] Eldar: that's where you're gonna have to go. 

[01:19:08] Mike: Yes. 

[01:19:08] Eldar: You're gonna have to think about self-actualization.

[01:19:10] But how do you go? And you'll find a way. Yeah. 

[01:19:11] Mike: Of course. '

[01:19:12] Eldar: Cause if... And if you don't, then you don't. 

[01:19:15] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:19:16] James: Then you just won't. Like nothing's gonna get in your way once you've adopted or accepted that. The only thing, 

[01:19:19] Mike: the only thing that stands in your way is to the only thing that actually is the blocker is thinking that you know how things work or understand the process.

[01:19:27] Once you understand there's a way which is the truth path or, like, not to make it so vague, like, that the answers are out there in this higher thing that you called it. Once you understand that and you believe in it, then you actually, then you unlock it. And then you can... Maybe it's not gonna uh- 

[01:19:43] Eldar: But, but that is the variable that is necessary, right?

[01:19:45] Mike: Yes. That is the variable. But how do you, again, uh, only through humility, through education Do you have to know something else out there exists, or do you need to suffer, like, uh, more to maybe say like, "Hey, actually I don't fucking know. I was wrong. Maybe there is something more"? 

[01:20:03] Eldar: No, I think that that's a, that's a big, that's a powerful statement of saying, "I don't know."

[01:20:07] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:20:08] Eldar: And I think that's probably one of the kickers- 

[01:20:10] Mike: Yeah ... 

[01:20:10] Eldar: and one of the s- stepping stones- 

[01:20:12] Mike: Yeah ... 

[01:20:13] Eldar: that you build on. 

[01:20:14] James: I think to piggyback off of Mike, I think also once you have that acceptance that it's a way of life or you're- 

[01:20:20] Mike: Mm-hmm ... 

[01:20:21] James: a lifestyle, I don't know at what point that really happens or when you notice it's your lifestyle because it's just been now a part of your life.

[01:20:28] Mm-hmm. But I think once you accept it's a way of life a lot changes for 

[01:20:34] Mike: you. Yeah. But I also think, like, I think like, uh, thinking about it in that way it's, um, it's challenging because- Because our, our ignorance is so v- so vast. Yeah. We may, I may understand a lot for myself about philosophy and my ability to change my quality of life and to change things.

[01:20:54] But I have extreme arrogance in many different areas where I think I know that I've never checked. Oh. You know? It's like you, like you lost something in your house, right? And you're looking through your house, but you only think your house is this room, but your actually house is eight different rooms, but you have not the ability to open your eyes to see those eight rooms because you only see this.

[01:21:16] It's like a very, like, simple example, but- No, 

[01:21:17] Eldar: it's a, it's a very good 

[01:21:18] Mike: example ... but that's how it is. 

[01:21:19] Eldar: You're not even aware that the seven other rooms are there. 

[01:21:21] Mike: Yeah, you don't know. 

[01:21:22] Eldar: But 

[01:21:23] Mike: they're there. So how would you know? How would you ever think like, "Oh, is there more rooms?" In order to think that- Yeah ... to think there's something else out there, it's like you have to- 

[01:21:31] Eldar: Well, that's why Socrates said what he said.

[01:21:32] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:21:33] Eldar: He believed. He's like, "Yo, I know that I know nothing." 

[01:21:35] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:21:35] Eldar: Because he understood that there's more than eight rooms. 

[01:21:38] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:21:38] James: It 

[01:21:39] Mike: always 

[01:21:39] Eldar: comes 

[01:21:39] James: back to that. Yeah. I, I think t- It does ... like, if I was to share something personally, right? Just I think for me it's become something bigger, like, uh, become more selfless.

[01:21:52] Like, it's like this life is not just about me. 

[01:21:55] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[01:21:56] James: It's about community and engaging and assisting, but I it kicked my ass, right? But I, I also come to accept and understand for myself that I'm gonna get my ass kicked again, and any moment I am arrogant about it, or any moment I do get cocky about it, I'm gonna get punched in the face or I'm gonna get slapped, right?

[01:22:16] I'm gonna get knocked down. And that's something, um, I've chosen to accept, and with saying that is also saying that there's more that I don't know. 

[01:22:26] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:22:27] James: There's so much more- 

[01:22:28] Eldar: So much ... 

[01:22:28] James: that 

[01:22:28] Eldar: I don't know. Yeah, but, but you can mitigate some of that pain that might come your way because of your arrogance through humility.

[01:22:34] Correct, yeah. Yeah. You know? So you don't have to go through the pain and suffering that you might have went when you were more younger and arrogant. Now, if you come, if you come into situations with humility- Correct ... I think that, you know, you pad your fall. 

[01:22:50] James: That's correct. So more so I was referencing if that arrogance comes out- 

[01:22:54] Eldar: Yeah

[01:22:54] James: that's when that'll happen. Yeah. But if you do walk with that humility, there is that cushion. 

[01:23:00] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:23:00] James: You are gonna be navigated in a particular way or have some assistance, but yeah, that- that's a good point. The 

[01:23:05] Eldar: thing is, what Mike said earlier though, right? You're not aware of those rooms' existence. 

[01:23:10] James: Yeah.

[01:23:11] Eldar: It's- In the corner of that room, there's that arrogant bastard- Yeah ... always waiting to strike. It's always there. But 

[01:23:15] Mike: I also think that is, again, the natural design of how it is. Always there. You can only know what you know, and 

[01:23:21] Eldar: you- But the problem is that there is an answer, though 

[01:23:24] Mike: There's an answer only if you can ask the question 

[01:23:26] Eldar: Correct 

[01:23:27] Mike: But there's no question that- 

[01:23:29] Eldar: But how do you buy into the a- asking the question eternally?

[01:23:32] Mike: You become hypersensitive to pain. 

[01:23:34] Eldar: Yes. 

[01:23:35] Mike: Yeah. Because that's what got you in here in the first place, your ability to not pay attention to pain- 

[01:23:40] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:23:40] Mike: and to not properly,

[01:23:42] Eldar: Mitigate it ... 

[01:23:43] Mike: mitigate it. It's like you go, you have a, you have a problem that you're sick, and you go to the doctor and he gives you a shot, or he gives you a thing, and he says, "Okay, bye."

[01:23:52] And you say, "Okay, bye." And then six months later you come back. 

[01:23:56] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:23:56] Mike: But you don't know how you got sick, why you got sick, what you did to get you sick. 

[01:24:00] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:24:00] Mike: You just know that the doctor will give you the pain relief. But if you don't question, like, "Hey, why did I even come here in the first place? Why did I get sick?

[01:24:07] What am I doing?" You start really asking those questions, you know, you un- then you understand. But yeah, I think hypersensitivity as much as possible to pain, to suffering, to... And the thing is, it's also very tricky. 

[01:24:21] Eldar: Yeah. You 

[01:24:21] Mike: know? Because like- You could misinterpret shit ... because like, um

[01:24:25] With our minds our brains are, the way that, you know, they work or I think they work or they, you know, from what I've heard is the way they work, they're very smart in our, in our pres- preservation of ourselves. 

[01:24:37] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:24:37] Mike: You know? So you may say, "Hey, I'm in pain." Like Toliy said. He's like, "I'm gonna drop this X thing," right?

[01:24:44] But then you may unconsciously be like, "All right. Now instead of doing X, I'm gonna s- invest more time in- Mm-hmm ... in gambling or something." 

[01:24:53] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:24:53] Mike: You find a different outlet for the pain relief, you know? So I think I think, yeah, I think that's the hard part. The unconscious pain combined with our mind's, like, brain function, it's a very interesting thing.

[01:25:09] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:25:10] Mike: The preservation of it. So I think i- if you're, again, if you're not hypersensitive to pain and really aware of what's going on, you're gonna get into those situations where you kinda just end up in the same boat, just on a different ocean or whatever, you know? 

[01:25:23] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:25:24] Mike: Like, you're kinda dealing with the same thing, but- Yeah

[01:25:25] it's just in a diff- different- 

[01:25:27] Toliy: Yeah. I, I think, I mean, I, I agree with you, but I also think that, like, that's why I feel like, In, in the time we that we do have when we are able to think, I think that we need to make the most out of it, and we need to help bring us out of that pain cycle so that we're not stuck reverting to...

[01:25:48] we're not stuck in the always the same place where we're still having the same pains, and we still re- require the same type of escape or relief from it. And it's, like, it's always interesting when, um, it comes to people like, "Hey, just, like, do this for a couple days. You'll see how much better you feel," or something like that, and the person's like, "Fuck you.

[01:26:07] Like, what do you mean do it for a c- couple of days?" You know? Like, to to them, they don't see that just a couple of days of different changes could lead to completely different feelings, so I, yeah, I feel like for you to not, yeah, like do the same thing but from a different, like, angle type- type scenario, I think that you actually have to take actual strides to wor- work on, like, helping yourself in- in enough so that you're not in as much pain and, and, like, you don't have, like, the same way of doing things.

[01:26:44] But the problem, I think, is that there isn't enough time of doing right that supersedes when you go back to, I guess, doing so-called wrong, let's just say for ex- for example. 

[01:26:55] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:26:56] Toliy: And it's way easier to fall back into that, like, loop of... Well, l- yeah, ju- just staying, not, not even falling back, just staying in the loop that you've already created for yourself that just recurs over and over again.

[01:27:11] And when you're not thinking, it's way easier to stay in, like, your stagnant space than it is to progress to anywhere. 

[01:27:20] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:27:21] Toliy: And yeah, I mean, um, yeah for me it's like the, uh, the salvation is in the, uh, raising of a- awareness because the r- the raising of awareness it leads to faster and faster, like, responses, and your response time to your pain, um, decreases over a time if you continuously raise awareness to it. And once you, like, know something or once you find out about something, you can't just put the lid back on and not think about it or, like, ignore it because it does become more and more- painful.

[01:28:00] And that's what it is for, like, me, is that, like, the only way that I'm able to, I think constantly, like realize and think about these things is because, yeah, I just I, I feel the pain more and more. 

[01:28:13] Eldar: Maybe- You know? What, what, have you ever thought about maybe finding a better way to be able to hide from yourself?

[01:28:19] Toliy: It's impossible. Like, you have to be, like, a next level, like, re- retard to be able to do that. 

[01:28:25] Eldar: How, how about we try? 

[01:28:27] Toliy: No. Yeah? 

[01:28:27] Eldar: Wait, I 

[01:28:27] Mike: thought that's what we're doing. 

[01:28:28] Toliy: You 

[01:28:31] Eldar: know? We've been trying to help him with that, right? 

[01:28:32] Toliy: Yeah. Like, y- the the thing is that, like, yeah, like you, like, you can't, like unsee what you already know or unthink what you already think.

[01:28:40] Yeah ... I don't know, unless you have some kind of chemical imbalance eventually, like in your head. So would 

[01:28:44] Eldar: you say, would you say that the people that are listening, they become lifers? 

[01:28:49] Toliy: That's also why I said that when I first started this out as a, yeah, my conclusion's always like, "Yo, it's over for everybody."

[01:28:55] But this is the first time that I've had this kind of like, like, s- similar type of thought and concluded that, like, no, it's actually, like, people are, like in a great place, and it's actually not over for everybody because the engine that has built itself is going to prevent it. It's going to prevent you from, from believing that or thinking that.

[01:29:18] And that, that's also why, like, there's not, like, a daily mass, like, suicide, right? Of like- 

[01:29:22] Eldar: Yeah, of 

[01:29:23] Toliy: realization- ... everyone who's in pain ... like, "Oh, 

[01:29:24] Eldar: fuck, we're 

[01:29:24] Toliy: done." Yeah, where, like, everyone's realizing everything at the same time and just going to kill themselves. 

[01:29:28] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:29:28] Toliy: But because whatever content engine that you're part of, it's designed to say like, "Hey, man, just turn on the game.

[01:29:37] It's all good." 

[01:29:38] Eldar: Yeah. "

[01:29:39] Toliy: Just have a brew with the boys," you know? Or, "I'm gonna tell you about these five greatest shooters of all time." They're, they're gonna find a way to bring you back to a peaceful place where you could where they're gonna take your attention off of whatever you can't put your attention to.

[01:30:03] Yep. And, um I think I think at least most people find it di- di- difficult to go focus on something or to do something. And I, the, like the reason I feel that way is because I see it, and I see that, like, people just can't do what they want to do, and like people can't live this life out of like choosing to do what they want to do and actually just be able to go do it on all of these different things, because they're just so far into being attached to things or just so far into being afraid of things that to overcome those types of fears or to get at that, I mean, it's just like, yeah, it feels like it's too much.

[01:30:49] And the reality is that there's a pathway designed out there for it to be just not that bad. There, there is a pathway and you're gonna most likely fo- follow it, which is why everything's gonna be all right.

[01:31:03] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:31:03] Toliy: Like Eminem said, right? 

[01:31:05] Eldar: She said that? 

[01:31:06] Toliy: Hush little baby, right? 

[01:31:07] Eldar: Hush little baby, don't you cry.

[01:31:12] Jay, do you know the, the rest of it? 

[01:31:13] Mike: A mockingbird. 

[01:31:14] Eldar: Yeah, the mockingbird 

[01:31:14] Mike: song. Yeah? Mockingbird. Yeah. I don't remember the rest of it. 

[01:31:16] Eldar: Oh. 

[01:31:17] Mike: Everything's gonna be all right. Right 

[01:31:18] Eldar: movie. Everything's gonna be all right. 

[01:31:19] Mike: Something like that. 

[01:31:20] Eldar: Yeah, it's like... All right. And Jared knows it for sure. So, Jared definitely knows it, yeah.

[01:31:26] So did we raise enough awareness? Now, Toliy, did you raise enough awareness for yourself in order to finally turn that leaf and say, "You know what? I've been hijacked, I've done wrong, and now I know better"? 

[01:31:39] Toliy: I mean, I, I would be a liar if I told you like, yes, because like the real- 

[01:31:43] Eldar: You're a pretty good 

[01:31:44] Toliy: liar though, 

[01:31:44] Eldar: no?

[01:31:44] Toliy: Yeah, I am a pretty good liar. 

[01:31:46] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:31:46] Toliy: It like... you could think so, but then you also like, it the paradox continuously of finding out more information is that you always think that you know something, and then you always get proof to yourself that you actually don't know anything. But it's so hard to- 

[01:32:03] Eldar: How do you take the humility standpoint that Socrates took when he said that like he actually believed it and then he lived his...

[01:32:10] Look, let's just say we assume that he, he, he lived to that statement- 

[01:32:14] Toliy: Yeah, I 

[01:32:15] Eldar: think it's so hard- ... uh, the way 

[01:32:15] Toliy: he did ... to live to that statement, 

[01:32:16] Eldar: because like- But how do you actually take that leap and say, "You know what? I'm not gonna fucking be this arrogant bastard, trying to assume that I know what life is about or who I am or what this is.

[01:32:26] I'm just gonna keep asking questions in order to get a little closer to the truth"? 

[01:32:29] Toliy: Yeah, I think you probably have to raise so much awareness of how complex in general things are. 

[01:32:36] Eldar: And, and- But you see, there you go. 

[01:32:37] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:32:38] Eldar: If you raise enough awareness to say like, "Okay, cool. I actually believe this," can't you then take that leap?

[01:32:45] I think it's a good, that's a good point. It's interesting, yeah. Yeah. You, you respect the shit. Like, yo, the design is so fucking mind-blowing and there's so much to learn that like, yo, I'm just a small little ant. 

[01:32:55] Mike: Yes, but uh- 

[01:32:56] Eldar: I'm, I'm a 

[01:32:56] Mike: microbe ... but you can only, I think you can only rely on that when you're actually in the moment of knowing what's actually happening, and it, I think it's very hard to be always focused.

[01:33:02] Which, which is so rare. 

[01:33:03] Eldar: When, 

[01:33:04] Toliy: like yeah, when does that happen? 

[01:33:05] Mike: To always be focused, to always be mindful of that is what is required. You, 

[01:33:09] Toliy: You would have to- Well, no, I don't think so. No ... you would have to put that into your- I think there is, no ... subconscious that way. Yes, I think that there- You, you would have to make that your default operating system- Correct.

[01:33:16] Yeah ... which, which I think is very hard. Correct. Yeah, I'm not sure how that... It's very hard right now. Yeah. 

[01:33:24] Eldar: You got him. Yeah. Yeah. You wanted to... Yeah, he was breathing hard. Yeah. No, I, I was still gonna say something. You're, you're breathing heavy because you got a little, a little weight on you now or is it - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:33:31] Or Toliy, who's pissing you off? 

[01:33:32] James: No, no. I'm a little tired. I'm a little tired. All right, 

[01:33:34] Eldar: fine. 

[01:33:35] James: Yeah, I mean, like you mentioned before, I agree with the commitment thing you mentioned, and which is why I mentioned, uh, you're always going deeper and you're always gonna figure out things later on that you're not aware of.

[01:33:45] So it's just, it's always gonna be that work. It's always gonna take some time figuring out and rewiring. But, um, I do... This reminds me of Socrates. In some of his writings, he used to say something else, some other element or design would happen. So I don't know if you remember, he used to say this oracle used to talk to him.

[01:34:05] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:34:05] James: And because of this oracle is the reason why I'm asking these questions or- 

[01:34:09] Eldar: Yes ... challenging people ... that was the motivator to some degree. He wanted to find out like, why did the oracle tell him that- 

[01:34:13] James: Exactly ... 

[01:34:14] Eldar: he is the wisest man in Athens? 

[01:34:16] James: So I think that humility is a big component to it, and also I think there's like a, a balance or a bridge that we can, can connect between like mind and heart, I think.

[01:34:27] I think we use one over the other too much, and I think there's this bridge where it allows us to really ground, like understand observing and experiencing once we really gain awareness or start navigating further into it. 

[01:34:44] Eldar: Okay. That's a good point. Mike? What do you think? Did we, we help raise more awareness on the subject matter for those who are looking to kinda maybe break their chains or are maybe feeling a little bit hijacked or manipulated or brainwashed?

[01:35:03] Mike: Yeah, I think, you know, in the general, like, uh, general thing of this whole ti- this type of topic, 'cause I think it, this applies to, like, many different things. I think all it, all it just, you know, uh, it requires the one time of, like, seeing the light, you know? And I think once you see that light one time, you, uh, you, I don't think you can unsee it, and the time maybe between seeing the lights could vary for different people based on how monumental that moment was, but I think, yeah, I think you can't unsee it ever, you know? And I think that's, uh- 

[01:35:44] Eldar: Something to look forward 

[01:35:45] Mike: to ... that's, that's good. Yeah. Something I hope one day I can, uh, experience. Yeah.

[01:35:51] I like that. Toliy?

[01:35:58] Toliy: Yeah, I just feel that, like, where society is and how things are, like, if you just look at things and you look at particular, I don't know, fashion trends, right? Or like, like nothing would make me happier, I think, that I- if, like, the, uh, owner or whoever is, like, right now in charge of, like, a brand like, uh, like Balenciaga, right?

[01:36:17] Like, if they just found some journal somewhere and said that, like, "Hey, I'm gonna act- I'm gonna make my brand so popular, and now I'm gonna actually troll the fuck out of people for the next 10 years and bring up these ridiculous things and charge ridiculous amounts of it to see if people will, will just buy it and follow it."

[01:36:31] Like, I always wondered, is like- 

[01:36:32] Eldar: If that was the ca- what he did ... 

[01:36:34] Toliy: you know how, yeah, like if I found out that, like, that wa- that was real, that would be like- 

[01:36:37] Eldar: That makes you happy ... 

[01:36:38] Toliy: that, that would be so epic. Yeah. Right? But if you think about it, again, people are willing to pay thousands of dollars for dirty sneakers or, like- Yeah

[01:36:46] ripped up clothing- Ripped up stuff, yeah ... or like, like garbage bags as, like- Mm-hmm ... things if it just has that particular brand on it. 

[01:36:52] Mike: But I think, like, that's also gonna lean into, like, um, you know, we talk about a lot of fun. Mm-hmm. If that guy learned how to have fun- 

[01:36:59] Toliy: Yeah, if he did that, crazy respect.

[01:37:01] Yeah. 

[01:37:01] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:37:02] Toliy: Yeah. Like, that, that would be so epic. Yeah. If he just said like, "Yo, people are just gonna fucking buy this shit no matter how ridiculous you go." Should we reach 

[01:37:09] Eldar: out 

[01:37:09] Toliy: to them and 

[01:37:10] Eldar: find out who started that line? Who's, uh- Cool ... who, who was behind that line? Yeah. '

[01:37:15] Toliy: Cause 

[01:37:15] Mike: that's our, our number one listener.

[01:37:17] We got a way in. Yes. His wife is in the biz. 

[01:37:20] Eldar: Yes. 

[01:37:21] Toliy: Yeah, you know? Yeah, 

[01:37:21] Eldar: you're 

[01:37:21] Toliy: right. Um, yeah, so, like, yeah, to, to me, I just feel like, it's to, it it's a difficult topic to discuss because I feel like people who partici- will participate in this discussion, they will have to get to a point where they speak almost against themselves in the process.

[01:37:41] And- 

[01:37:42] Eldar: In which sense? 

[01:37:43] Toliy: Uh, well, in the sense of, like, every- or everything that you're talking about that they, you're sa- saying that is hijacked from them, they're actually convinced that it's part of themselves, and it actually is who they are. 

[01:37:55] Eldar: Oh, okay. 

[01:37:56] Toliy: So the conversation around that is that, like, you're trying it would be convincing people to come out of the cave.

[01:38:03] Eldar: Oh, I'm not trying to convince 

[01:38:03] Toliy: anyone, though. Well, no, no, no, like- Yeah ... the conversation would be like that, where, like, people are in a cave, and they're gonna be like, "Yo, what are you talking about, man?" Yeah. Like, you know? Just like, "Turn on the game and shut your mouth." 

[01:38:13] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:38:14] Toliy: You know? It's such a painful and difficult process because it's gonna feel in the moment to that person like you're trying to take away who they are and their, like- 

[01:38:23] Eldar: Yeah, identity

[01:38:23] Toliy: their, their i- their identity when, like, the conversation's actually around bringing it back and actually having it. But- Yeah, 

[01:38:31] Eldar: yeah ... 

[01:38:31] Toliy: because they don't have that kind of control or that kind of conscious, like, choice behind it, they can't. Yeah, I mean, I, I think over time people are saying that, like, with how easy and, like, accessible maybe more information and stuff is that it becomes easier, but I think that, like, the process of thinking for yourself over time becomes harder and hard- harder because there's so much convenience and there's so much thought out already for you, and that there's so much convincing you of that, of those things that are thought out, that I think that the force that you're up against, uh, becomes, like, greater and greater.

[01:39:09] Um- 

[01:39:09] Eldar: Uh, but, but- Which is- ... why would the, why would this bother you if they, like, just all these people- Oh, it 

[01:39:14] Toliy: doesn't. 

[01:39:14] Eldar: No, I- ... are just cl- they're just clones or copies- No, 

[01:39:16] Toliy: no, no, no ... of somebody, 

[01:39:16] Eldar: of someone else? No, 

[01:39:17] Toliy: it doesn't bother me. No, it, it, it doesn't, you know? Like, every- everyone can choose to live their life how- Yeah

[01:39:25] th- they want to. But I think it's interesting how, like- Like full cycle things go where like, uh, at, at one point in life things were done, I don't know, let's just say the old-fashioned way, right? And then it was a desire to accelerate it. Yeah. And then now it's a desire that like, oh, everyone wants farm to table, you know?

[01:39:44] Right? 

[01:39:44] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:39:45] Toliy: When like you wanted to eliminate the farm stuff to make more. Yeah. But then now it's like you pay more for what's like real, for example, right? 

[01:39:52] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:39:52] Toliy: And like, yeah, I feel like, yeah, just, j- so, so yeah, overall I'm completely fine with everyone making obviously like whatever decisions they wanna do, and do whatever they want to do or don't want, want to do.

[01:40:03] That is absolutely their choice, and I'm not, an- angry about it or feel any kind of way about it. I just feel that the when I'm conscious and I'm thinking about this stuff, the observation about what's going on, it absolutely baffles me. 

[01:40:19] It absolutely baffles me, and I can't get unbaffled about it.

[01:40:22] Every time, like I think about it and I see it, it's just like, "Oh my God." Like holy shit. Well- This is what's going on. And it's just like, to me it's like a I go through like the same types of feelings of like, I d- yeah, I just can't believe it. Like I just cannot believe it 

[01:40:40] Eldar: We started this with this whole influence of social media stuff, and I'm gonna finish it with that.

[01:40:44] The fact that you can believe it, I also can believe it. Me and Mike couldn't believe it as well. Every time you brought this stupid ass social media stuff to us, like what a fucking robot. 

[01:40:54] What a loser. 

[01:40:55] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:40:56] Eldar: You know what I mean? Because there was no real conversations around it. Rarely. It was just about headlines.

[01:41:01] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:41:01] Eldar: You know what I mean? So think about us seeing you frying your mind every single time, delivering this stupidity to us. 

[01:41:08] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:41:08] Eldar: And we're like, "What the fuck?" Enough, you know what I mean? Like, you didn't say anything just now. You just took some, some Shannon Sharpe's fucking thing, you know what I mean?

[01:41:16] Or Stephen A. Smith's thing- Yeah ... and you delivered it to us on a fucking silver platter. You know? And, and the reason why I'm saying that is because I know that he's capable a lot more to have his own hot takes, to have his own understanding, to have something clever, funny, whatever, witty, but at the time, he didn't.

[01:41:36] He was just a paralyzed robot who was delivering this shit to us, and we're like, "What a loser." 

[01:41:42] Imagine how we felt. 

[01:41:43] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:41:44] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:41:44] Mike: Right? You gave all your... Like, yeah- You keep- ... you give all your power away to somebody else. Yeah. 

[01:41:48] Eldar: Yeah. And a lot of times what? It was met with me thinking about it, Mike thinking about it, sitting down and be like, "This is stupid, bro."

[01:41:54] And then he, he would agree because he slowed down. He's like, "Wait a minute. Why, why are they shaking me up?" You know what I mean? The last thing, I'll tell you what he to- told us about. Remember those fires that we had, James? 

[01:42:04] James: From what? Canada? 

[01:42:05] Eldar: Yeah, from Canada. Yes. Yeah. Remember that? 

[01:42:06] James: Mm-hmm. 

[01:42:07] Eldar: So we obviously know about it.

[01:42:09] We, you know, like, oh shit, yeah, fires, whatever, whatever. So I'm doing something. I'm, like arranging the room 'cause we just recently moved, you know? Mm-hmm. He rushes in, all sweaty and shit, you know what I mean? "Let me. You better let me. Okay?" He comes in, rushes, he rushes into the room like all sweaty. He's like, "Yo, bro, you can't believe this, man."

[01:42:26] I'm like, "What?" You know, I turn around, I'm like, "Yo, is the house on fire? Like, what the fuck's going on?" You know? "What did we forget?" He goes, "Bro, you know what they said?" I'm like, "What?" "They said that if you spend a whole day in New York City while this fucking fire is going on, it's like smoking 10 cigarettes."

[01:42:44] I look at him like, "Are you fucking kidding me, bro? I used to smoke a pack a day. Me and Mike used to smoke two packs every play, Counter-Strike and Webstation, bro. Think I give a fuck about this? What the fuck is 10 cigarettes, bro? It's fucking irrelevant." And he's like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right. You're right, you're right."

[01:42:59] He didn't think about it. He just delivered it. It was a ridiculous thing. It's not that serious. He used to be a smoker himself who probably smoked 10 cigarettes easy a day, right? It's a non-fucking factor. Now, if he came to me and said, "Eldar, spending outside in New York City on a day when it's like this, it's like smoking 10,000 cigarettes- Then I'll be like, "Oh, shit."

[01:43:22] Toliy: Yeah. Or, or even like 100 packs. 

[01:43:23] Eldar: Like 100 packs or something. Yeah. You know what I mean? Significant, yeah. I'm like, "Bro, this is bad." He said 10 cigarettes. So he delivered this information without thinking about it. It's not that fucking serious, but he wanted something out of it because somebody else fucking wrote it.

[01:43:37] Somebody else wanted to fucking get a, a shock value out of it. 

[01:43:41] Mike: So- This is what I'm saying ... so you would say he's addicted to shock value? 

[01:43:45] Eldar: Yeah. And a lot of people are. 

[01:43:47] Mike: Yeah, that's how we felt for a long time, like he just loved shock value. 

[01:43:49] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:43:50] Mike: The news delivery was always 

[01:43:51] Eldar: shock value. Yeah, and a lot of times it's not.

[01:43:53] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:43:53] Eldar: And a lot of times their takes are whack, they're corny. 

[01:43:56] And every time he brought that without thinking, I thought like, yo, you're just frying your brain. 

[01:43:59] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:44:00] Eldar: Because you are better than that. I know it because when we have actual conversations like these, I think he has a lot of hot takes.

[01:44:06] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:44:06] Eldar: So this is what I'm saying, that he was pissed off. Mm-hmm. Think about how I felt. Every time we idolize someone, it's dis- to dis- it's disrespecting ourselves. 

[01:44:16] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:44:17] Eldar: Yeah. We talked about this on episode- Yeah, 

[01:44:18] Mike: yeah ... 

[01:44:19] Eldar: don't quote me, 147. It's called, I think titled Idol. We talked about this. Every single time we idolize someone else outside of ourse- ourselves, we disrespect God and design and ourselves.

[01:44:32] That's the biggest disrespect that we could do. And this is what it is. If you're listening to this shit, if you're idolizing people, stop fucking doing this shit because you're disrespecting yourself. I mean, if you do, if you continue, then whatever. We don't give a fuck. 

[01:44:47] Mike: No. 

[01:44:48] Eldar: Thank you, guys. 

[01:44:49] Mike: Thank you.

[01:44:50] Eldar: Bullshit, man.