Raising a non-binary child: Shane and Jemma talk with Celine Serrano-Diaz

Celine Serrano-Diazb is a delightful and thoughtful parent to her non-binary child, Judah. In this conversation, Shane and Jemma explore the rewards and challenges of raising a non-binary child in a society that is sometimes wonderfully affirming and at other times frustratingly resistant.

Transcript

Shane: Hello, Change Podcast! It’s good to be with you again. With my co-host Jemma. Hey Jemma!

Jemma: Hey, hey! How are we doing?

Shane: Very good. And we are delighted to introduce our guest for today, Celine, who is my friend and colleague at the University of Sydney. Delighted to have you with us.

Celine: Hello. Thanks so much for having me.

Shane: Well, we are here to talk about your family, and in particular your child, Judah, who has relatively recently come out as non-binary, or told you that they are non-binary. So, a really fascinating story. We have so many people asking us, you know, what do you do or how do you respond to young kids and children when they come out as non-binary, or trans, or gay, or, you know, all sorts of different things. So, you and I had a talk recently about your situation and we're really thrilled to be able to interview you. And I figure the next place to start actually is not directly with Judah, but just maybe giving us a little bit of background about you and your family.

Celine: Yeah, sure. Just to add actually, I did speak to Judah yesterday and got their consent to talk about their story! And their first question was, "Who wants to know, and do they understand what non-binary is?"

Shane: Jemma, can you answer that for Judah, in case Judah listens to this?

Jemma: I have a very, very good understanding of non-binary. I hope to reassure you, Judah, and we will move through this conversation very respectfully. But I just want to acknowledge your precociousness in asking the important questions and making sure that you will be respected. So that's amazing to see that in a young kid, and it's quite, yeah, I mean the question I always get asked is how old does a young person need to be before they can make these decisions and understand themselves? Sounds like your young person is, or your child is, quite self-aware already.

Celine: Yeah. Yep, definitely. So, Judah is seven, and in our family, there's me, my husband—his name is Benjamin, but he has many nicknames, most people know him by Ben, or his Filipino nickname is Jun—and my older son, Matteo, who's nine. So, yeah, our family, like we're pretty traditional in a sense. Ben and I met at church in a youth group. We started dating when we were 19. He's pretty much my first and last boyfriend.

Shane: That's just the same as me!

Celine: Yeah, I know! I thought you could relate.

Shane: I was married at 19 and I'm still with my same partner, Elly, my wife, for 35 years, so, yeah.

Celine: Yeah. Well, we're going on 15 years married. We started dating at 19, we weren't married until I think I was 27. Yeah, and we were very much involved in the church, like that was our whole life. And we wanted children really badly from the moment we got married, but we had a couple of miscarriages and went through infertility and didn't have our first until six years into our marriage. And then, so that was Matteo. So I was very anxious while I was pregnant with Matteo. But then Judah was just a complete surprise, because when Matteo was six months old, I found out I was pregnant with Judah. So they're 15 months apart.

Shane: Oh lovely. Especially when you've had such a trial, to have such a nice surprise.

Celine: And that's why we called him Judah, because Judah means like "praise" or "celebration." And so we thought it was just a different season of our lives. And his middle name is Leor, which we know it's a Hebrew name. It's from, you might have heard of the artist, I would say you probably have heard of Leor. Jemma or Shane? No, you haven't? Oh, okay.

Shane: No, unfortunately not.

Celine: Yeah, I just really love it. It means "light." So—

Jemma: Celebration of light.

Celine: Exactly. Yeah, it's quite fitting. That's a bit about us. Yeah.

Shane: Yeah, lovely. And so it's not as though then, by the sounds of it, you had a background connection to queer communities or, I mean, you have obviously your work. You work at the University of Sydney and you're doing a PhD on minority inclusion. Is that what your PhD is on?

Celine: Yeah, pretty much. Yeah.

Shane: Yeah, but it's not as though transgender or non-binary or different genders was a part of your everyday conversation. So how did it first come out that Judah thought they were a little different, for example?

Celine: Well, for Judah, it was pretty much when they started preschool. So they were four. And at their preschool they had costumes, you know, you could just choose one off the rack and wear it for the day. And Judah really liked Princess Anna.

Shane: Right. So up until that point, no sign for you?

Celine: Up until that point, Judah liked colorful things, and beautiful things, and always appreciated beauty and things like that. And we just encouraged that. We could see that Judah was very creative and saw things that other people didn't notice. So, very sensitive. And so when they wanted to wear a Princess Anna costume, we were like, okay, that's interesting. I mean, the teachers told us they want to wear Princess Anna costumes and what do you guys think about that? And we thought, well, that's fine. I mean, they can play with whatever they want to in preschool, like if it's the kitchen stuff or whatever, it shouldn't be gendered. But then it became more of a thing because some of the boys in their class started teasing them. Like, why are you wearing a dress?

Shane: Right, I was wondering about that. Yeah.

Celine: And so then, because it happened to be that one of my really good friends, who's also Judah's godmother, was his teacher.

Shane: Right.

Celine: And so she really switched onto it and thought, okay, I need to educate all the other kids about, you know, it's okay to express yourself however you want, it shouldn't be gendered. And she found some books that were appropriate for that. I don't know if you guys have heard of, oh, I wish I remembered his name, but he's an author who's written a few books: My Shadow Is Pink and My Shadow Is Purple. I'll have to share it with you.

Jemma: Yeah, that'd be great. Yeah.

Celine: Yeah, so My Shadow Is Purple is all about a child who is basically non-binary and describes these binaries of "my mum's shadow is pink and my dad's shadow is blue, but my shadow is not pink or blue. Sometimes I do want to be blue, sometimes I do want to be pink, but I'm not either, I'm purple and I'm me." And Judah really resonated with that.

Shane: Yeah, wow. That's pretty impressive because your friend who was the teacher was godmother. Does that mean they were also Christian background?

Celine: Yeah. Yep. I guess this all coincides with us, and we've, you and I have spoken about this before, Shane, like a lot of me and my community of friends have gone through that deconstruction, kind of post-evangelical season of our lives. And Jemma's smiling.

Jemma: Yep, yep. Valuable work, that.

Celine: Yeah. And for us, a lot of it began, I would say, a real clear point when that began or a catalyst for it was the plebiscite in 2016. At the time, we had a church community that was small and we liked to meet and discuss current things, a bit of a different church model. And we very much discussed in detail the plebiscite and what we should be voting as Christians. And I remember at the time for me, because I really identified still as a Christian, I thought, I don't know what the Christian perspective is supposed to be, but just intuitively, I feel like I just should vote yes. But I need my sources and references to back me up on it.

Shane: How did the church community respond at that time?

Celine: I think a lot of us, because a lot of us are the similar age and generation, were pretty much on the same page. We had a few people like a bit older who, you know, really wanted to talk it through. I don't know what they ended up voting, but it was an open dialogue. I think a lot of us did end up voting yes.

Jemma: Sounds like a great community to be able to have that dialogue openly and respect diversity and opinions. I'm curious what, you mentioned that you needed some references and sources to really confirm your intuition, and I wonder what those sources ended up being?

Celine: I think his name is Scott J. Higgins. He's an Australian Christian blogger. And so he had written a few pieces on how marriage itself is a civil institution, and it shouldn't be dictated to by the church's beliefs in terms of who can get married. And so, I mean, that was enough for me. I read I think three of his blogs and then he had quoted a few, he spoke about scripture as well, and how there's nothing specific in there, especially because the idea of marriage and relationships, you know, changes in history. So I was like, okay, yep, that's all I need.

Jemma: That's really cool. I mean, it sounds for you like the question was more around the institution of marriage, whereas a lot of the conversation within religious circles tends to be more around whether the experience of love is a sin or not if it's homosexual. And so was that something that you'd already kind of accepted, some people are gay and that's okay?

Celine: Yeah, I think so. I think that's what was driving that impulse, that I just think the God I believe in, that I've experienced, that I want to get behind is a God of love, and I don't think that He holds that from people. And my husband and I were really both grappling with the idea that a lot of the time, you know, a lot of the commandments and the things in the Bible, they're there because if you don't follow them, there's harm that can be experienced. But I don't think that is the case when it comes to love and relationships and diverse types of relationships. So that's what we struggled and kind of had to think through. And then when we got to the point of thinking, well, marriage is an institution, it's a legal institution, and I think anyone should be able to engage in that, particularly LGBTQIA+ people. Yeah.

Shane: You've done a, you've actually given a really great summary of what I think is the prime reason for the church needing to change its views on these topics, which is: where's the harm? And you know, if sin is what causes harm, then the harm is people trying to suppress who they are, and it's the damage that the church does to hurt people and to exclude and alienate people. But let's get back to Judah. So they were in preschool, they started to get bullied from their friends. How did that go? Or you're saying that the preschool dealt with that really well and really quickly, did they?

Celine: Mm, yeah, they did. So when the boys were sort of making fun of Judah and saying why do you wear girl costumes, Judah wasn't terribly distressed by it. They were just more like, "Because I want to. Why is this so hard to understand?" And so then I think the teachers got behind Judah and just read those stories and said, "Anyone can wear whatever costumes, they're just costumes. They're ways to express your creativity." And Judah finished up at preschool a bit earlier, like around December, so not all the way through to school starting. And on their last day, all the boys were in the dresses, the Disney princess dresses, and they have a photo with all of them wearing the costumes.

Celine: And yeah, and then even when we were picking out school bags, because Judah goes to a public school so you can buy your own bag. So we went to Smiggle, and Judah picked out a hot pink bag with unicorns and rainbows and stars on them. You can't miss it! And at the time I remember thinking, okay, here we go, here's another marker, I guess, of Judah's expression. And I said to Judah, "Okay, like you can choose whatever color bag you want, but you have to know that if you choose a bright pink bag like this, you're probably going to have people asking you questions, making comments. How do you feel about that?" And at the preschool they'd already rehearsed some of those things. So Judah said, "I can just say, it's okay if you don't like it, but I do." So they had these prepared lines. And sure enough, that did happen.

Shane: You better name this preschool, because they've done a remarkable job!

Celine: I would give the credit to my friend, Michelle. That was a lot of her love behind it because of her godson. And she said she learned so much just from teaching Judah. And she passed it on because preschools actually do a bit of a handover to the schools about what each child is like, what their learning is like, their learning needs. And that was something she included in the handover, to be mindful and sensitive about gender and gender expression, and know that, you know, Judah doesn't strongly identify as non-binary at that time, but obviously didn't want to be just grouped with the boys. So from kindergarten on, there was just different sensitivity from their teachers because I often had informal conversations with them.

Celine: But it wasn't until this year in term one that I actually phoned the school and asked them to change Judah's pronouns. And that was on Judah's bidding. Yeah.

Shane: Yeah, wow. Well, I mean, two things. The fact that the preschool ended with all the boys comfortably wearing, what a testament to Judah and the school, I mean, that preschool, to have just shaped the attitudes and cultures of young people. Because you often hear how cruel young people can be, and bullying, you know, is so common. But it doesn't have to be when schools create that. So in the new, what was the first day of school like for Judah in the new school, for example? When they went in with, you know, the, and they were wearing a colorful bag. What clothing did they, because there is, we have gendered school uniforms in Australia, so were the school uniforms gendered and what was Judah wearing?

Celine: Yeah, that's right. So Judah wore the boy's uniform, which is shorts and pants and a polo. I did ask, I have asked Judah at some point, "Would you rather wear the girl's uniforms?" And Judah, like, they're not really fussed on clothes. I think costumes are more an expression of creativity, but in terms of regular everyday clothes, they don't mind too much what they wear. It's more about comfort. It's more about those sensory type of things for Judah. But yeah, so they came in their regular uniform and that bright pink bag. And you can always spot Judah when you're looking for them in the playground, you just look for the bright pink bag!

Celine: So, regular questions, like I think multiple times a week, until Judah's brother Matteo and their friends, because we have family friends who go there as well, just started answering for Judah: "It's just a color!" You know, because at that time people would say things like, "Are you a girl?" Like at the time Judah would say, "I'm a boy, I just like pink." Yeah.

Shane: So, can I ask, because I'm trying to be so careful here, you're swapping a bit between the male and the non-binary pronouns. Is that just because, actually, even for you it's difficult, or is that because you're talking about the past when they were "he" and then now it's "they"?

Celine: It's a bit of both. I did catch myself almost saying "he" a few times in the present, which I tend to do sometimes, but also in the past, Judah was happy to just go with "he/him" pronouns and be identified as a boy. And I think even at home, like I've said, all of us are trying to, in this process of learning to remember what pronouns they want to be referred to by. And Judah's quite gracious about it, because I think with us as a family, they feel that we accept them for who they are, and that we're just, you know, it's a time of transitioning for us for how we refer to them. But definitely, I think in those days, like in kindergarten, year one, Judah was very clearly saying to people, "I'm a boy."

Shane: Yeah. So what then was the transition to "I'm a boy" to non-binary, they/them? Because that still seems quite young. I can imagine listeners saying, at seven? So yeah, what was the transition there? I mean, obviously, it sounds like Judah's a real thinker, the way you're describing them! So yeah, explain that to me.

Celine: Yeah, I think, so around the time that Judah started school and I guess I had all these questions in my head, and I was, as a mum, I was thinking, how do I know and how do I support if my child is trans? Like, what are the things that I need to do, what are the things that I need to be mindful of? And I remember reading, and you guys can tell me if this is still current, like I remember reading that it has to be persistent, consistent, and—what is it? I'm just drawing a blank right now. But just basically that they very strongly identify as whatever gender they're saying. And I was on the look out for that, but also apart from that research, I really got into RuPaul's Drag Race.

Celine: I watched many, many seasons. It was, I binged many seasons. And I think for me it was my way of immersing myself in that queer community and just thinking, look, the outcome of this could be one day Judah could decide to be trans, and I'm okay with that. Like that's, I want to be able to embrace that, and I want to be able to be on that journey with Judah. Because on the show, you've watched it, the nods seem like you're familiar. Yeah, yep.

Shane: Yep. Yep.

Celine: There's always that segment towards the end where they bring out their photos of themselves as children, and they often refer to their name as a child, and then what would you say to that child, if you had the chance? And it's a very emotional episode. And that always stuck with me because I always thought there was always a mix of people, like the ones who are saying, "Oh, it was so traumatic, I can't even say anything" and then others who were like, "Thank you, Mum and Dad, for accepting me, like look at this kid, look at this flamboyant child, and they've never stopped me from being who I am." So I think for me, I would love that to be Judah's story, to just be like, "My parents always just made me feel loved and accepted no matter what I chose."

Shane: Which direction they go.

Celine: Yeah.

Shane: Which is a beautiful way of thinking about your parenting journey, because you've now got, you're able to look forward and say, you don't have any idea whether Judah will decide to stay non-binary, will end up saying, "You know what, I'm male," or become trans, and all of those paths are open. They're not better or worse, they're just different. And it makes your parenting journey, I guess, a little less stressful because you can just allow it to happen. And then Judah can just be themselves as well, so it's, um, it's lovely.

Celine: I think the other thing about Judah is because they actually have really long hair that they started growing last year. And it's beautiful and black and shiny, and they also have really big eyes and eyelashes, so they're constantly referred to as "she" at school, which is what—

Shane: And does that bother them?

Celine: Not particularly. But I don't think they're at the point where they, well, they don't identify as female, which is the issue. So that's what prompted me to tell the school about their pronouns. Because I got a call one day saying, "Oh, little Judah's here, they're not feeling too well, but I think she's okay now, I've sent her off back to class and she'll be good." And I just thought, didn't say anything at the time, just thought, mm, interesting.

Shane: And I guess at least there, the school is trying to just be completely accepting of what they presumed to be the gender, but that was obviously the problem—the presumption rather than asking Judah!

Celine: Well, I think that one was like, it was the office lady, and it was before I'd made the call to request the pronouns. So I think she just honestly thought what I see is a girl. Yeah. And so, for Judah, I think they don't mind it. I think they almost find it a compliment because they just have this whole thing around beauty and being pretty. And they hate being called handsome! They were like, "Don't call me handsome!" So I think they're like, "Oh, I'm a girl, I'm pretty, thank you." But I think they're like, "I don't necessarily, I don't want to be disingenuous and say I identify as a girl, so I'm just going to tell everyone that I'm Judah, I'm in the middle or none of those things."

Shane: Yeah, wow. So, so the school and the kids at school, at the primary school, have been good as well? No difficulties there as with the non-binary?

Celine: No big dramas that I've heard of at all. Yeah. I think there's those one-off comments like, "Why is your hair long?" or "Why do you have that bag?" You know, things like that. But again, Judah knows what to say, their friends know what to say, the teachers know what to say. And the teachers have been really intentional with how they even refer to the children in class. So rather than saying, "Boys and girls, let's do this," they just say, "Children." Like, they actually told me all the ways they're trying to be like gender-inclusive. Yeah, and—

Jemma: Amazing! And Jemma’s heart is like, yay! Right? It is so simple.

Shane: Well, it's really uplifting to hear, especially because in my line of work, I do a lot of trainings, and young people inevitably comes up. It's one of the most common questions people raise, and things people get caught on. And it's always around, there's a lot of fear. There's a lot of fear-mongering, kind of like imagining that if their child comes out as trans or non-binary at a young age, that somehow their entire schooling experience is going to be atrocious, and it's going to be too complicated for people to handle, it's going to be too complicated for them to handle. And how do they know that, or how could they possibly support their child to be curious? It's all of these fearful questions, and you've just made it so simple. It is, because it is. It's just people being themselves!

Celine: And I think it's been really like a good partnership with the school, because until I made that call to have that discussion with the teacher, let's refer to Judah by they/them, and then that teacher took it further by saying, "Well, I taught Judah last year and these are the things we did, like in terms of using gender-inclusive language. I'll speak to their current teacher now about this. Would you like me to change the pronouns in the systems?" I don't know how we do that, but I'll see if I can do it, I'll call the people who make the software, because there was a particular app that they couldn't easily find where there were pronouns and it was just, I think, "she" and "he." But they somehow managed to do it, because Judah's report just came out last week and it was all they/them pronouns.

Celine: And they're doing it quietly, but in an impactful way, like within the classroom and respectful. And I think that's better than spotlighting Judah or spotlighting the issue, like what you were saying, Jemma. Like, I think if they put out a flyer that was like, "We are a rainbow school" or something, that would have parents up in arms and then they would be like, there might be a witch hunt for why is this happening and who's the person responsible for this. So I feel like the way that they're approaching it is very respectful and kind of almost grassroots, just responding to the need in a respectful way. And in a collaborative way, too.

Jemma: Yeah. Yeah, we don't have to solve every problem in advance. We can just kind of keep it simple, respond to the little things as they arise, because it will just be a succession of little things that arise. But if you try to solve it all at once, then it's a big thing.

Celine: That's right. And it shouldn't be on Judah to kind of like solve it, right? Just because they're already the person who's in a system trying to make it work when they don't fit easily in the system.

Shane: Well, and they're seven years old!

Celine: And they're seven, exactly. I mean, there is that, there is that first fact! They just want to get dressed in the morning and go and play with their friends.

Celine: Yeah, and wear their hair however they want and choose whatever clothes and bag they want.

Shane: This has been a delightful conversation. I've been watching Jemma can't stop grinning, for those who are listening to this podcast. And like I said, so this just sounds like a beautiful and easy story, but it hasn't been all easy, has it? And where the challenge has been is with the conservative Christian background of your parents. So talk to us about that, about, you know, when that first came up, how, you know, what the experience of it was, what you've tried to do, etc., and you know where that resides now. So yeah, take us along the journey of explaining to your parents.

Celine: Yeah, actually, yeah, I think in terms of what you spoke about, Jemma, in terms of fear, I think what I've feared the most is my parent's fear! So when I have to tell them particular things, and how they'll react to it. So when Judah decided to grow their hair, it was already an issue with my parents because the longer it was getting, the more comments, the more different ways of trying to persuade Judah to cut their hair, because they preferred Judah to look and present as male. And they would like bring up photos and say, "Look how handsome you are here" or "If you cut your hair, I will give you a prize or money," or different things like that. So that was already happening.

Shane: Bribery into gender! Oh.

Celine: Bribery, yes! And I remember saying, maybe not a great idea to bribe your grandchild into cutting their hair. So they kind of stopped doing that after a while. But after this year when Judah decided to identify as non-binary and we told the school about the pronouns, I thought, well, I should probably also tell my parents, like be consistent. We had that conversation and it was a hard conversation. And I got Shane's advice before I had that conversation, because I just thought, what are some pointers that you could give me that I could keep in mind, because right now it's not clear in my head, because I'm having an emotional and like fear response to talking to them.

Shane: What were some of those things? I'll see if I can remember. The basic essence was: let go of your theology for the moment and ask yourself, do I want to have a relationship with my kid? Because they're going to react, you know, by not wanting to be with you if you don't accept them. Was that my basic advice? What else did I say?

Celine: Yes, it was, it was. And that main thing that you said about "put theology aside," because I could just see it going into a tangent and us going into a theological debate. I'm like, at the end of the day, it's not about theology, it's not about the conceptual understanding, it's about the person and what creates safety and what creates harm. So our conversation very much did, my dad kept bringing up different points and beliefs, and I wanted us to sort of agree to disagree on beliefs and just focus on what will be most helpful for Judah. And it's still a journey, because I don't think my parents can just accept. So in their minds, they're choosing between right and wrong, rather than just being able to accept difference in beliefs. So they think, I think, what I'm picking up on is they feel like my parenting is wrong. That I am misleading my child by not being clear about, you know, what gender they are. So they feel the need to correct my parenting.

Shane: Yes. And is that with, so has that been after that conversation? Has that been with Judah as well? Or have they been a bit more careful with Judah?

Celine: No, there was an instance a couple of weeks ago where they said, I think it was within Judah's hearing, but more to my older son, that "Judah is a boy. There are only two genders and Judah is a boy." So basically contradicting what Judah has already expressed and what we've already spoken about. And so I heard about it from my kids when they came home.

Shane: What did Matteo say to that?

Celine: Matteo is a non-conflictual person, so Matteo was like, "Mm, I stepped into something here and I'm just going to be quiet now." Oh my god, your kids are so smart! And Judah told me, "I was crying, but just quietly, I didn't let them see me cry." And that broke my heart. So when Judah told me, I said, "Well, what do you think me and Dad believe about that? What do you think your family thinks about that?" And they can say with confidence, and they did say with confidence, "I know, I know you understand I'm non-binary, and I know you let me express myself." I was like, "Yes, you just have to remember that that's what your family's always going to be here for, and there's going to be a lot of people who may not think that way. It doesn't change who you are." But I think obviously because they are close to their grandparents and they love their grandparents, there's just this point of friction now. And I did address it with my parents, but they weren't really willing to tackle it. They were kind of like, "Anyway, we're going to disagree, moving on." I'm like, "Moving on? Interesting."

Jemma: Yeah. What really stands out to me listening to this is this contrast between the two parenting styles that are being expressed between you and your parents, or Judah's grandparents, which is that the grandparents seem to have this, I don't know, maybe more old-fashioned view of like this need to morally guide a young child, that there is this like capital-T truth, and we need to enforce our worldview in that young person. Whereas in your case, throughout this conversation, I've heard multiple times you educate by getting them to question themselves. You know, even the case with the pink backpack, it wasn't like you didn't just tell them flat out that you're going to get bullied and that's going to be hard and painful and scary. You said, "You're probably going to have to answer some more questions. How do you feel about that?" You didn't tell them how that was going to feel—is that scary, is that going to be hard for you? You let them have their own experience with it. And so it feels like there's this like, in one case, the older-fashioned parenting style might be more like shepherding, and this new parenting style that you're taking your kids through is like guiding them to be their own guides. And that to me seems like it will have much better outcomes for them in being able to think for themselves and express for themselves and respond to conflict when it arrives and not be so thrown by the tides of social convention. Yeah, it's really beautiful.

Celine: I think so. And I think a lot of it may have to do with just the different experiences of the generations, right? Like, because my parents are first-generation immigrants. So I wonder how much of it is having that fear and scarcity kind of mindset and wanting to protect and wanting to be on the correct side, and, you know, like uphold traditions and do the right thing. Whereas I think my generation, having grown up in Australia and feeling a lot more confident about my place and my beliefs, having more of that abundance mindset that things will be okay and we can question and all of that. And then again, my kids who are another generation down who have the privilege and blessing to self-actualize.

Jemma: As the world progresses, black and white becomes a little more grey because there are less risks potentially of falling into the wrong side.

Celine: Exactly.

Shane: It's nice because you're, yeah, you're able to recognize then that your parents are, who've done a great job in raising you to become your own moral agent, are a product of a culture and a system and a background, and hopefully in time they'll, you know, they'll because the, I mean, the sad thing about the assumption that you need to tell them is that it just doesn't work. It's not going to suddenly make Judah change, and there is so many stories of people whose parents told them that homosexuality was a sin or, you know, who told people to stop wearing dresses or the other way around, to stop being a tomboy. And that, you know, the overwhelming in terms of harm, back to the thing you brought up, is that you think that you're doing it to tell the truth, but it's not working the way you want, you're causing damage to people. And people still in those contexts come out gay and come out transgender and come out non-binary, but they have all this baggage and trauma when they do. And so your parenting style, I guess, says we're going to give the person the freedom to become who they are because they will do that anyway, but we're going to make the journey for them a loving one and not one where they're having to sort of constantly suppress and hide and kick against the goad because, you know, in terms of harm, there's so much harm in not being free to say who you are and express who you are. And that, those sort of micro-traumas build up on a person's psyche. So, yeah. Look, I think this has been a long podcast and just such a beautiful one. Is there anything else that you wanted to tell us about, yeah, Judah's story and Judah?

Celine: Not really anything to add, just yeah. If Judah does listen to this, although I don't know that they'd have the attention span to listen to the whole thing! But yeah, I'm just really grateful to have the community and even like a colleague like you, Shane, and for being invited onto this, like to have that network of people who are affirming and supportive.

Jemma: And let Judah know that I'm inspired by their hot pink backpack! I want to get myself one now to match my hair.

Celine: Yeah, you should! Hit up your local Smiggle. Thank you, guys.

Shane: Wonderful. All right. Thank you. See you later, Celine.

Celine: See you.

Jemma: Ciao.