Found Voices™ Season 2, Episode 7 Deirdre Sullivan

Whenever I talk with Deirdre, I find myself laughing and smiling. A lot. That’s what we did when we sat down to record this episode. But we still managed to talk about writing, discipline, inspiration and more.

I had such fun. I think you’ll enjoy this episode as much as I did.

Deirdre Sullivan is a New England–based writer and the author of three children’s books—Ming Goes to School, Ming and Her Poppy, and Gussie and Max—with additional work published in Method Writers Speak. She is currently working on a murder-mystery novel that explores friendship, secrets, and the quiet tensions within seemingly perfect lives. A longtime observer of people and places, she draws inspiration from community dynamics, family life, and the moments we often overlook. She lives in Boston with her husband, four daughters, and her black lab, Boo—often at her side as she follows the tension, silences, and secrets that linger just out of view.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Hello. Welcome to episode seven of season two of the Found Voices podcast. I'm Carolyn Zeal, and today I am excited to sit down and chat with Deirdre Sullivan. She is a New England-based writer and the author of three children's books: Ming Goes to School, Ming and her Poppy, and Gussie and Max, with additional work published in the Method Writers Speak series. She's currently working on a murder mystery novel that explores friendships, secrets, and the quiet tensions within seemingly perfect lives. A longtime observer of people and places, she draws inspiration from community dynamics, family life, and the moments we often overlook. She lives in Boston with her husband, four daughters, and her black lab Boo, often at her side as she follows the tension, silences, and secrets that linger just out of view. So welcome to Deirdre. I'm sure you'll enjoy the listen because Deirdre is, well, quite frankly, great. Enjoy. Welcome, Deirdre.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Thank you. It's good to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

I'm so glad you're here. I want to talk about all the things, writing all the things. But I love your bio. You talk about paying attention, sort of curiosity, just looking around. It is the greatest bio because yeah, you describe what a writer has to do.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

I tried. I tried to fluff it up a little bit. If that was but what made you go in that direction? It's so creative. Well, because my initial bio with my first picture book, I did I there was nothing to list, you know. So I had to sort of make it fluffy. So it looked like I wasn't just, you know. So then I just sort of added to it this morning at 5 a.m. when I knew knew I needed to get it to you in time for this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

I love a deadline. You do, don't you? Is that help your creative process?

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Yeah, absolutely. I love to, you know, I think having deadlines just make forces you to sit down, where other in other words, or other times I would be like, oh, I can do it tomorrow, or I can do it next week, or you know, come up with excuses not to sit down and write.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

I just don't see you doing that because we know you're very disciplined and driven. You love fitness. Yes, I do. What are your norm? You do swimming, tennis, you run the stairs at Havid. Is it Havid?

SPEAKER_00 3:13

Havid in the Havid Yad. I haven't been able to do the stairs with all this snow. It's very dangerous when you lay ride down them. Yeah. Or break your teeth. Yeah. So I choose not to go. But yeah, I'll do weightlifting, running, running the stairs, swimming, tennis. I try and mix it up.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

So you take that discipline, you put it into your writing because if I'm not mistaken, you wake up at 4 a.m. to write. I do. I do. That's commitment, that's discipline.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

Well, it just gives me that before to at least 6:30, where no one's texting me, no one's calling me, no one's emailing me. I'm not dealing with anything with doing with my kids, with schools, because I do think that those interruptions take you away from your your work. And so it's just like a time that I know I can. And you know, having four kids, I can't really turn my phone off. I can't leave my phone in the other room for an hour because someone might need me, right? I mean, typically they at this point they don't, but as a mom, it's hard to just say, all right, I'm gonna go work for two hours and not think about it.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

I think it's inspirational. And because, you know, we talk about inspiration, how you have to dig for it. There's so many people that, oh, I didn't write this week. It was a really hard week. I couldn't find anything to write about. And you I think are a great example, at least for me. Oh, thank you. There have been times when I found out that you were up. Um, I would sometimes wake up at four for different reasons. And uh I'm thinking, Deirdre, Deirdre would get out of bed right now and write. I literally think that. And then I think, well, I have a different schedule and it's okay. And I could sleep for one more hour and at least I get up and work out and do the other things right.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

But then I had a problem then trying to write, you know, like let's say right now I've got the afternoon free. And like because I'm my that time from four to seven is so precious and so quiet that I do find it hard for me to then try to do something at noon, you know. Isn't that funny? I don't know why.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Well, I think we just get used to a schedule, right? I used to be like that, but then I sort of changed when my schedule changed. And I don't know. I just said, well, I can pick up something because you're in the editing process. So I I can pick up something and start editing and create from there. Right. Do you do that? Do I am I able to pick something up and like mid like when you're editing, it's a little bit different than the create, you know, just creating from scratch.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

Yes and no. I think that I think editing I think forces you to even for me at least, it makes me it forces me to be even more creative because what I've already created is not good enough, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Okay, that's one way to look at it. Or just like, all right, or just you want it to be tighter or better or more. How do I make this better?

SPEAKER_00 6:17

So it's almost as opposed to the first time you're writing it, you're sort of like throwing pasta at the wall to see if it will stick, right? And then when it comes back and you're like, ooh, all right, how can I change this? How can I make this better? And how and learning to let go of what you think is good, you know, and someone else is saying, don't love that, you know, you're like, really? You know, yeah. So I think that sort of takes more, I don't know, determination, maybe to like make it better.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

Well, and I think it depends on the someone. I I was in a class once and uh I read something, there there becomes a discussion of I like this line, I don't like this line, I like this line, I don't like this line. And in the end, the author gets to decide until they're working for someone else, they maybe have an agent and you know they're going for publishing, and that's okay too. It's just a different part of the process.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

So it's funny because my first picture book, Ming Goes to School, is a story of a little girl's entire first year of school, not her first day. It takes you through the whole year. And I probably rewrote that story uh at least a hundred times. I mean, I worked on that story for years, and I was like, I know there's a story here, I know I can do this, but it was like, you know, this little girl starting school in the fall and getting to the end of the year in the beginning of summer. I could not get the transitions down. I couldn't, I it just was so clunky. I was trying to show the different things that they would do in school at the different seasons and the snowfall and the snowflakes and the you know, the whole thing. I'm telling you, I tried it every which way but Sunday. And it finally came to me. I woke up in the middle of the night not to write, but I just happened to roll over and this it all came to me. It's now it was like a thousand words when I was editing it. It's now 97 words. That's amazing. And it all came together, but it was years of forcing it and forcing it. But I loved that challenge because I knew there was a way to make it work. I knew I believed in it, and I believed that there was a made a way to make it work, but it it took time, and I think patience is key too, you know.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

Have you written all your life, considered yourself a writer all your life?

SPEAKER_00 8:48

No, I mean, I've always loved to take creative writing classes, and I um was an English major or minor in school, and my mom is a writer, a poet. So, you know, anytime I would write something, she was always so complimentary of my writing. And I always was like, Yeah, that's all moms are complimentary of their not all moms. What happened was it was my oldest daughter's first year of school, and it was that with your first child taking them to school, it's very it's like this big step, right? And so this little school she went to felt so safe and warm and kind, like everything about it I loved. And I really wanted to thank the teacher at the end of the year. Both of my parents are teachers, so I understand the work that goes in and that that they work really hard too and sometimes aren't appreciated. So I wrote her teacher a letter at the end of the year to thank her. And I showed it to my mom first, and I was like, Is this okay? You know, and she said, Oh, deirdra, you have to put this into a you have to make this a story. And I said, Make this a story, and she's like, Oh, yeah, you have to, and she really was the one that encouraged me. And so I that's when I started turning it into a story, and she was like, Send it, send it out. You've got to send it to you, see if you can get this published. And I think it was around the time the book The Help came out. Remember that book? And the author, who I'm forgetting her name, but she would say that she had sent that book out and got like 65 rejection letters. So many rejection. So many. And that sort of gave me hope. All right, if if the book The Help got rejected, I mean, because I love the book, was I loved it. I thought it was unbelievable. If that book can get rejected and still get published, then then I have hope here. And I just didn't give up. I mean, I spent so I want to say Daisy was born in 2004. I think I wrote it initially, let's say 2007. It was published in 2016. So that's how many years I spent, you know, I not certainly like I'm writing now, but like, you know, I would go back to it and then I'd send it. That was back when you'd mail your manuscripts to publishers. So you'd have to wait like six months, but I just didn't give up. I I refused to give up. And I'll finally in like 2015, I remember getting an email back from a publisher, and I was like, oh, it was like jumping up and down. I was I I was like, I knew it. I knew this was gonna work. I just something inside me told me that it was gonna get published, and it did. But it wasn't for lack of trying, let's put it that way.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

It reminds me of the movie of Julia and Julia with so I never saw that movie. Oh, it's it's you know, Julia Child's Amy Adams plays Julia. She's a blogger and she picks up Julia Child's famous cookbook. I apologize for my four listeners that I don't know it, the name of it, and she decides she's gonna go through it for her blog. Right. And her blog gets popular, and it's the story of her getting the publisher for her book, but it's also the story of Julia Child and the years and years and years that they put into that book. And it's every writer's dream. I'm gonna write a blog and someone's gonna see it and want to publish it as a book, you know. Right, right. Back when people could do that. Right, right. Uh now people still they they self-publish. There are people who have self-published and their books have been so popular that they didn't get picked up. I mean, anything is possible. But I think the important thing in what you're saying is you did not give up.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

No, I was determined to get that thing out in the world. Yeah, and I think the hard thing is with picture books, you know, I I did consider self-publishing at one point, but it's so expensive for the printing that, you know, it just financially uh it would it wouldn't have made any sense whatsoever.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

We talk about voice in method writing and and we talk about uncovering it or finding it. I'm curious because first, when did you start writing prose air quotes? And is there a difference? And did finding your voice make a difference in how you approach your creative process, your life? Totally.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

You know, I think the one thing that my mom always told me growing up is the easiest thing to do is write what you know. So every time I would sit down to write something, I would be like, okay, what do I know? And what can I, what's the easiest thing that I can get on paper that I know is true? Or, you know, my experience with it. So when the kids were little, I was just surrounded by the funny things they'd say. My daughter had a sore throat one time, and I was like, Oh, do you have a frog in your throat? And she thought she literally had a frog in her throat, you know, like little things like that. Well, there's a picture book, you know. So then I'd try and go with the things that they would say. And as they got older, I was losing that inspiration and sort of not sure what I should write. And then someone had mentioned Jack's class, and that's when I started really sort of writing prose and thinking, wait, I can write about adult things now, you know, and my my struggles and my friends' struggles, and again, tapping into what I know.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

I think too what you said, you know, you were quote, losing your inspiration. You really were always looking around you for inspiration. And then what you did is you went, hmm, I need to go find more inspiration. And so you take a class. It's really, it's so because there is that myth of inspiration. I think it happens so infrequently, where literally a breeze, it happened to me once. So I have these shears. Yeah, the windows are open and it was like summer, and I was reading a Liz Gilbert's magic book. Uh I can't see the title from here. Like Big Magic. It's all about creativity. Right. And the wind literally pushed open these shears, and it it lasted a strangely long time. And I turned around to see if the trees were moving. And as that happened, I sort of, this is so woo-woo, whatever. I got chills and an idea came for a class, one of the first writing classes that I taught. And um I called it Big Magic Adventures in Writing. But other than that, because I really feel that was like inspiration blowing in to my life. I mean, that was in 2016. I don't know 10 years ago, right? I I haven't, it doesn't blow in that often. Although, and I wonder if this happens to you during a workout, like a it's usually cardio, right? Dance workout, or maybe a run for you, a swim, maybe an idea will hit, maybe a walk. Does that happen to you?

SPEAKER_00 16:13

Oh God, no, no, no, no, no. All I'm I'm waiting for it to end. I am not thinking anything other than how much longer do I have?

SPEAKER_01 16:21

Because I think you work out way harder than I do.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

I'm like, all right, I got 10 more. I can do it, I can do it, I can do it.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

That's funny.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

No, it's not during, it's more, I think it's more conversations I hear, at least now. I guess I the same thing with the kids, but like conversations or interactions I have with people or events that I attend, or something that I'm like, oh, I can somehow adapt this to my book. You know.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

Do you text yourself the ideas or you just remember them because they're so vivid?

SPEAKER_00 16:53

Well, you know, the other thing is I think my my dad once, like, or someone at some point I knew that I was an auditory learner, that I learned better through listening than I do visually. And I think that ultimately helps my writing because when I hear what people are saying, I sort of that's how what I remember rather than what they look like or their face. Like I remember their tone of voice, the their sort of use of dialogue. That's what sticks with me rather than the clothes they're wearing.

SPEAKER_01 17:25

And that you can make up. Right. Right. And when you talk about truth on the page, I think what you do, because obviously you're working on a murder mystery that is fiction, but when you talk about truth on the page, you're so good at capturing reality, really, and the truth in your sentences. You write great sentences. I love your oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

And you create characters that literally from what they say, you're great with dialogue that leap off the page. And some of them are absurd. What are you right about? Uh, in the most reality show kind of way.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

Yeah, I didn't really have to invent too many characters in this book, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

So I I don't know how deep you want to get into the inspiration for the book. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Well, I mean, I think uh taking Jack's class and how he always says write what you, you know, going to Ralph's to get a chicken. And, you know, I would just write what happened to me in the the that week or what had transpired. I I was friends with a woman that was involved in the Karen Reed trial, which was a huge trial that took place here, and a woman was accused of backing over a boyfriend after a during a party during a snowstorm. One of my good friends was at the house when the this person was killed. And she would call me to tell me her version of the story and it would or her version of the evening's events, and it was just so sort of I don't even know how I could describe how I felt listening to her versions of things, but it was definitely I've never talked to somebody that was around a murdered per victim, you know. So that was something that I started writing about in Jack's class. And then the more I wrote about it, the more I was like, huh, this might come together for a murder mystery. So it's not really that story that happened that night, but it certainly gave me inspiration to continue writing something bigger. How long did it take you to actually write the first draft? So it's hard for me to remember when I actually got to a point that I was like, wait a second, this might be a I could turn this into a book and how much I had written already. But I did use a lot of the work I had written in Jack's class, whether it was an image moment that I was able to change and adapt to this story or conversations that I had used in Jack's class that I was able to, so I was able to pull a lot of the work that I had already done over the years for the novel. So it's hard to say. I mean, I certainly never sat down and said I'm writing a novel. And here I it's sort of like it all sort of compiled into one. And I'm like, wait, you know, I've got 40,000 words here. Let me see what I can do with it, kind of thing. So it's hard for me to answer that question because I don't, I never set out to write a novel. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 20:38

I love that. No, it does. I mean, I that happened to me. I didn't set out to write my first novel, but it I think there's so many people that feel like I have to have a story to write a novel. And sometimes I wonder if it's the opposite that makes the novel even better. Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

And I do think that one of my agents', you know, first pass at my my my first draft was that there was too many vignettes in it. Like I'd use I'd relied too much on those little quirky stories that I had written in Jack's class and use them in the novel. And I realized, so now that we're on our third round of edits, I guess, I I realized how they didn't fit, you know, and how I've had to streamline it. But certainly not wasted. I've just had to like rework and sort of make it like lessen the amount of characters and be like, okay, this is still a great scene. I can just have Susie be the person, not, you know, like not add a new character, but add it to the person, you know, one of the main characters in the book.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

And the editing process in itself, it's interesting once someone who's taking it to market looks at it. You see how books move along, and the sometimes you don't need so many. Attributions, you know, and when you're in a writing class, you're learning and you're adding and you're you're just sort of spaghettiing, you know, but the way you said it, but you're just sort of expanding and then to come back and to say, Oh, I don't know if I'm gonna use this here. Now that's not to say I agree, no wasted men, no masted writing. That's I say it all the time. First of all, you can use some of it for something else, right? Right. Another book. I mean, I know you have more than one in you, but how has the editing process been for you?

SPEAKER_00 22:35

So it's definitely different than my the picture books that I wrote because I would, you know, again take Mingos to school. It's it was 97 words. So that was something that I could send off to my agent or my editor, and she'd get back to me in 10, 15 minutes, like do a quick, you know, and then I'd be like, oh, let me try this or let me get the unscent. So it was just more, it was much shorter editing and a much quicker process. And I think someone like me that's very, I want to get this done. Like, I don't want to wait. Let's get the let's get to it. You know, so when I do send off work and there's a time lag that I'm waiting for her their feedback, that's sort of what I struggle with because I should be continuing to write while I'm waiting, but it's hard for me to do that while I'm waiting. You know what I'm saying? Like I'm sort of in this holding pattern.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

When you're waiting like that, do you think about, oh, maybe I'll write something else that has nothing to do with the book, or is that a distraction? Because I know there are some people who can work on five things at once.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

Oh, yeah, no, I can't. No. Yeah. So I I'm that's part of my what I would love to change about myself is just be like, okay, you send it in, let it go, keep moving on. But other I send it in and then I'm like like waiting for it to come back. And, you know, she's a busy woman. So I I don't, you know, sometimes it's quick, sometimes it's not so quick. So I get a little um, I should be more proactive while I'm in these holding patterns.

SPEAKER_01 24:11

And what I remember you telling me too is as you were writing all of this, I'm not mistaken, she called you saying, Hey, what do you have? What are you working on? Didn't didn't she do that?

SPEAKER_00 24:24

Yes, I think, you know, we have like a State of the Union call every year, um based on what you've centered, you know, like sort of where you're at with them. And so when she called, I was like, hey, I've you know, I've this is kind of crazy, but I wrote a novel and she was like, send it to me as soon as you can, you know, which is I'm so grateful to have this person that, you know, my agent, because I would I know how frustrating and how hard it is to get an agent. And I remember even with my first picture book, I didn't have an agent. And so I was submittonsited manuscripts. And even after it was published, it was still really hard to get an agent, even though an agent doesn't want to represent represent you without being published. But so it was like it was still tricky, even with this sort of pretty successful debut picture book.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

So you actually sent it unsolicited to publishers, yes, and agents.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Or just I think I did some agent, I think I did both, but I primarily sent to publishers.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

Because there are some publishers who will take unsolicited manuscripts.

SPEAKER_00 25:39

Right. And I call like I got that, it was it used to be a big book of all the publishers, and I would go through every single one. And okay, I can send it to this one, I can send it to this one. But my publishing company was the one that put me in touch with my agent and said, maybe you guys could, but even with that introduction, she was still a little hesitant about taking me on just because I was so new and I wasn't someone coming to her with three or four things already in you know, out there in the world.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

So it is, it is not an easy road.

SPEAKER_01 26:13

No, it and and uh it takes commitment and drive, which you obviously have. And yeah, you're amazing.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

I mean, oh I don't know, but I don't know about that. But it is, I think the other piece of it too is as like writers when you see something that is out in the world and has gone through the process and has an agent, and you're just like, How did this get here? Like this got here, and I, you know, like so. I think that's hard too, right? Yeah, yeah. When you see some great stuff, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

We I don't want to sound, you know, no, I mean but there is I think what's so great about what what you know what I I teach because of Jack, who changed my life, method writing, and all his co-teachers is we're we're teaching people how to write. We're not teaching people how to figure out a story to tell. And when you know how to write, you can write anything. And what's so crazy is anything is that's really good. It doesn't have to be what you think. There are there are people like Jennifer Egan, Welcome to the Goon, A Visit from the Goon Squad, or you know, you read these books and they're little episodic things, and hers has this like whole chart in one of the chapters. It's like a flow chart. It's it's fascinating. And that got published, and it wasn't her first book. And and if I'm not mistaken, Gillian Flynn, her first book published was not Gone Girl. I think they after Gone Girl, they re-issued or re-published previous, yeah. And I think some of her other stuff, I could I could be wrong.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

I'm you know I also I believe Colleen Hoover self-published some of her first her earlier books.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

Oh, I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

And she's like she's what one of the top thriller writers of our time right now. Right now.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

So do you want to share what you're going to read? Okay. And a little bit about what it is you're going to read.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

So I think though, we should talk about how much you helped me with this opening. That this is an example of how of something that I wrote and edited like 15 times. The opening. Right. Right? And yeah, because it started one way. It started as um an article from the Boston Globe talking about a snowstorm and someone died that was under investigation. It wasn't the original article. We'll just No, it wasn't the original. It was something that I wrote. But my I remember my agent saying, like, you know, yeah, but it doesn't, if someone picks up this book, they're not getting the sense that this is a murder mystery. Can you change the opening? Because it just sort of lands flat. So you helped me. We wrote it from several different points of view. And then you finally said, Why don't you try writing it from the person who's been killed, writing it from their point of view? You you remembered actually.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

I think you kind of came on to that. That's great. We thought it was great, it was tricky. And I and I did offer a couple of books that I can't remember now for you to read. Because sometimes when we to see how another author does it, but then I think I don't know. I think we came on it together. I don't want to take credit.

SPEAKER_00 29:43

No, no, no. And then I remember I was in CVS and you were I got a text from you and said, try writing it from the murderer's point of view. And I was like, okay, let me see if I can do this. And I get out like those that's the kind of stuff that I love. I'm like, okay, let me see if this reworking it, but it was tricky too, because I didn't want to give too much away about who murdered this person and all so, but um You did it really well, and I just have to say, yeah, I do tend to text my clients with ideas every now and then, you more than others.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

I I think because I'll be listening to a podcast or I'll be listening because we have that that murder mystery thriller true crime thing connection, and I'll be listening to a podcast or a book, and I'll think, Oh, this would be great for Deirdre. So, but no, I mean, that's how ideas come sometimes when you're listening to a book, and the idea will have nothing to do with the scene of the book that I'm listening to. It just links to another idea, to another, to another, and then boom. And you're so good at that, making connections.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

Thank you. It's so amazing. You're welcome.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

I think it's just about staying open. And I think that's what you do going back to your bio before you read. You are just open to everything going on around you.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

Yeah, I think that's the most exciting part of writing is like, let's try. I don't know. I just think it's fun to why not? Let's try this, you know? Let's see what happens.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

So, this is the opening scene from your novel, your upcoming novel.

SPEAKER_00 31:14

Yes. Okay. I'm gonna read slowly. Good. The weather forecasters got it right this time. The storm, the cold, the wild black sky. I needed this storm. A storm like this doesn't just cover tracks, it erases things, erases sins. You were already bleeding when you hit the snow, hands scrambling at your neck, trying to hold yourself together. I love watching you struggle. Your fingers red and shaking, sinking deeper with every panic breath. Lightning cracks, carving the outline of your face in the dark. Terror looks the same on everyone. Wide eyes, open mouth, the sudden understanding that no one is coming. You press your hand to your neck, trying to stop the bleeding. For a moment, I think you might actually succeed. But then the wind shifts, and I watch the warmth spill through your fingers, red soaking into white. The contrast is almost beautiful. Your arms tremble, your breath puffs out in thin, shallow berths. The storm wraps around us like a cocoon, hiding everything but the sound of the wind whispering through the trees. Snow accumulates around your legs, climb climbing higher with each gust, burying them inch by inch. You try to crawl toward me. Of course you do. You always reach for me when things fall apart. Don't, I whisper. You freeze at my word. The footprint trail between us is fading, dissolving under the storm. Soon there will be no sign we had ever stood together, no sign of what drove me to this moment. You try to speak. Maybe you're trying to say my name. A gurgle escapes, wet and soft. Your hand reaches toward me again, grasping for the hem of my jacket. The jacket you complimented when I first wore it. I step back. You know now. I see it in the way your body slackens. Your legs kick weakly, pushing against nothing. You try to scream, but nothing comes out. Snowflakes catch on your lashes, melting fast, freezing faster. Your fingers claw at the ground, feeble little motions like you think the earth owes you one last chance. Your eyes flicker fast, frantic bursts of panic and regret regret. Is it true that your life flashes before your eyes? Are memories of me filling your mind? If so, I wonder which ones. You look up at me, begging for something, an explanation. People always think they deserve explanations. They don't. Your breath now thins to a whisper, but I wait until your chest rises one last time and falls still. The storm roll roars on. I turn away before the snow covers you completely. It won't take long. That is so good. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

I love it. It's so good. I love the hints you give the reader when the individual is crawling toward uh the uh murderer, like you always do when things fall apart, the murderer says. The jacket you complimented and you're you're giving these hints. We talk about first lines and first pages, and I'm always looking. I love a good thriller suspense. So I'm always looking for a really good thriller suspense. And of course, how many times do we go to a bookstore or Kindle or whatever you do? And if that first page doesn't hit me, right.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

Well, and I think that was my agent's point. There was nothing to that Boston Globe article that was gonna really make someone wanna see what happens.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

People have to realize the process of editing and turning something and just sticking with it is so important. And you're right, there are so many agents. Your agent doesn't even want a first page, she just wants a query. Seriously. Right. Yeah. She's established, so she doesn't have time. Right. And and then there are other agents who want the first three chapters or 20 pages, and some only want one page. I think though, if people are gonna walk away from this, they're gonna realize it takes it's a practice, it takes dedication, it's okay to rewrite things, it's not gonna be perfect the first time out. And I also love that you make it fun. I try to have a little fun in my life.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

Well, and I think if you look at it like, oh, like I I do, I really look at it. When like when I got that text and you said what you said, I was like, this is so exciting. I can't wait to see what this will turn into. So that's sort of I almost like that more than actually sitting down starting from scratch. Like I almost like to see, like, let me just write something and then let me see how I can mix it up, is where I get the joy.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

It's like a puzzle. Yeah. Jack said this to me once because I said it's like a puzzle, putting the plot, plotting it. Right. Figuring out where things go. Even in one piece of writing, if you have a 500-word piece of writing, figuring out what's going to open it, where you, you know, everything's a puzzle. He said, Yeah, it's a puzzle. With the but the thing is that the pieces all are blank. So they're really weird shapes and they're blank.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

That yeah, that's a good one. That that's that's a challenge right there for sure.

SPEAKER_01 36:55

I knew I was gonna have so much fun talking. You're like one of my favorite people.

SPEAKER_00 37:00

You're one of my favorite people. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 37:04

Yeah, I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

All right. See you soon, Carolyn.