Research Bites Podcast

#39: Wanting, Liking, and Motivation: A Conversation About Reinforcement

• Kristina Spaulding, PhD, CAAB • Episode 39

Share episode

Today’s episode is a little different from the usual format.

What you’re hearing is an actual recording from a Research Bites Coffee Break—an informal, unscripted conversation where behavior professionals think out loud about research, ask questions, and explore ideas together. There’s no lecture and no tidy conclusions—just real discussion and curiosity in action.

The topic for this Coffee Break was the distinction between wanting and liking, two concepts that are often treated as interchangeable in training and behavior work, but that turn out to be meaningfully different. Liking refers to how much pleasure an animal experiences from a reinforcer. Wanting reflects motivation—the willingness to work for that reinforcer, sometimes described as something closer to craving.

In this conversation, we explore how wanting and liking interact, why one can be present without the other, and what that means for learning, reinforcement, and behavior change. We also talk about how these ideas can help us think more carefully about motivation in practice, especially when training isn’t going the way we expect.

If you’re interested in how scientific concepts evolve when people slow down, question assumptions, and apply them to real animals and real situations, this episode offers a candid look at that process.

A huge thank you to the Research Bites members who attended this podcast: Juliet Purll, Faith Cleary, Mason Small, Suzanne Bryner, Chrysann Collatos, Lynne Stott, Lori Torrini, Karen Scott, Kristine Adams, Wendy Katz, Shannon Noonan, Paula Philips, Heather Furby, Alice Hengst, Kiem Sie.

For more information, please check out my website and social media links below!

RBP_CB episode_AUDIO_v1

Host: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome. I'm Dr. Kristina Spaulding, and this is the Research Bites Podcast brought to you by Science Matters Academy of Animal Behavior. We foster conversations about science and its application to animal training and behavior. In an effort to improve wellbeing for animals and the people they live with, please enjoy geeking out about the science of behavior.

Host: This episode of the podcast is a little bit different and it's very special to me. Today's episode is an actual recording from a research bytes coffee break. I am deeply, deeply grateful to the research bytes members who showed up knowing that they were going to be recorded for the podcast. Podcast.

Thank you all for enriching my life so much and supporting [00:01:00] this work. We have these coffee break conversations three times a month. We use this time to think out loud about research, wrestle with uncertainty, and explore how science translates into practice. There's no editing or scripts here, just real people having real thoughtful discussions.

I hope you enjoy getting a window into what those conversations are actually like.

Host: So tonight the topic is something that I'm actually really excited about. and is something that gets people really curious and interested, and that is this distinction between wanting and liking. So I'm going to quickly define that in case not everyone is familiar with this distinction, and then we can talk about it.

and it's funny 'cause I just talked about this today and unlocking resilience so it's fresh in my mind. Some of you were there actually, people used to think that dopamine, which plays a really big role in reinforcement, was about pleasure. So dopamine was the pleasure chemical [00:02:00] and that's why we got this dopamine release when we did things that were rewarding because it's.

Things that we like to do. But as the research continued, what we realized is that dopamine is actually responsible for wanting dopamine is the thing that drives cravings for drugs, for example. And so it drives an animal to work for a reinforcer, but it is not necessarily related to liking a reinforcer.

It seems that the experience of liking. Is driven by endogenous opioids, which are just opioids that are naturally occurring within the body. And of course, I mean even this is oversimplified, but there's this division between these two things. So they've done some studies that show that if you block dopamine in.

Rodents, they will still show a preference for [00:03:00] foods that they like. And if you put the foods directly in front of them, they'll eat them. However, they will not work for those things. And so I think this is really, really interesting because it tells us that there's a difference between how much an animal likes the thing and how hard an animal will work for a thing.

And of course, this is very relevant to us as trainers because, It has, you know, we're always trying to get animals to work for reinforcers, although in this group maybe not quite so much, but I think we all still work with reinforcement. So what I wanted to talk about is the implications of this in working with animals, what it might look like when a dog is in.

But not necessarily wanting to work for a reinforcer. And do we have situations maybe where dogs are completely in wanting and not necessarily experiencing liking? And then of course, how to shift those things, right. So if there's too much wanting thing going on, how can we bring it down? [00:04:00] Or if there's not enough, how can we bring it up?

And all of that. So I will turn it over to you guys, just, um, as usual, I, I don't think I've gone over the rules for discussion for a while. Always be respectful, which everyone always is. That's never a problem. And then once you've spoken, if you can wait for at least two other people to speak before you jump into the conversation again.

So, Suzanne, go ahead. 

Suzanne: Yeah, I was just wondering if you could just say a little bit about endogenous opioids. No. 

Host: It's like someone won't ask me too much about this. I dunno a lot about endogenous opioids. 

Suzanne: I just dunno what that refers to specifically. Like, I don't know what those are. 

Host: So opioids are these drugs that people get addicted to because they, they create these sort of experience of euphoria among other things.

And so. Endogenous opioids are naturally occurring chemicals in our body that produce that same euphoric experience. I shouldn't say the same because it's probably not exactly the same, but there are [00:05:00] naturally occurring experiences that we can have that can create that sense of euphoria. And the endogenous opioids are a really key part of having that experience.

Suzanne: Okay. But those are more related to liking than wanting or craving. Interesting. 

Host: Yeah. And Dodgers, opioids are more related to liking. Yeah, I'm not sure it was Who was first? Leonard Mason. Okay. 

Mason: Yeah. I have a quick question about the combination of, and I've had dogs who are willing to work get being offered two completely different food items and knowing that the dog prefers one over the other.

I've taught dogs to make correct choices by being rewarded with the one that they like and teach them, teaching them to ignore something by offering them something that they like less as an option. And I was just wondering where that sits on the want and like, 'cause it's kind of a combination. 

Maybe it's easier if I [00:06:00] tell you what I did. Yeah. We had a dog, we had to put a harness on and he was just untouchable. He wouldn't tolerate touch at head whipping and and nipping at my hand when I would try to reach down for the harness. Every time I touched him on his side, I offered him a piece of cheese and I had a buddy on the outside of the kennel who was offering him.

Duck treats. Okay. And it took only a few minutes for him to learn to ignore the touch on his side because it took him away from the duck and he liked the cheese a lot less. So we put the harness on him by teaching him to ignore the cheese. That makes sense. 

Host: I'm not sure. So you had, so you had someone on the outside of the kennel that was feeding him duck, which, 

Mason: yes.

Host: And so, 

Mason: and I was inside trying to put the harness on him. Right. And he wouldn't let me touch him on the side. 

Host: Right. 

Mason: So every time I reached in. And petted his side. When he would whip around, I would offer him a piece of cheese and he ate the first few. Okay? [00:07:00] But he learned that I had cheese and the woman on the outside had duck.

So when I would touch him, he would ignore me. 

Host: Okay. So it wasn't that he was being reinforced with the duck for any specific thing, it's just that that kind of overrode his concern about being touched. 

Mason: Yes. 

Host: And so he, it's, I mean, what I, the first thought that comes to my mind is he just got distracted by the duck.

So that's an interesting question. So you're wondering how wanting and Laking play into that scenario? 

Mason: Yeah, which is which I'm having a hard time figuring out where that. Falls. 

Host: Yeah, that's a hard one to answer. I mean, I think when we're talking about the real world, right? There's always so much going on.

There's so many different things coming into play, so, so the first thing that comes to mind, and I don't know if this is accurate or not, and there's no real way to test it, I, I mean in the real world, but the first thing that comes to mind for me is that the presence of the duck, which he really enjoys, [00:08:00] is more salient to him.

Than being touched. And so that there's just this attention shift that occurs where the, sensations of the handling are, are being sort of turned down, for lack of a better word. That's 

Mason: so he is not really, he's not really working, except for the only work he's doing is ignoring. My touch, but he's actually, it's liking, isn't it?

It's liking the duck 

Host: probably, Yeah, I think you're right. 'cause he is not really doing any work to get anything. Yeah. It's, uh, it's, that's, that's a really interesting question. But that's, I mean, that would be my guess is that the interest in the food is just turning everything else down.

Typically I wouldn't expect to see that. So I think that's a really interesting case that Thank you. 

Mason: I, it really actually does help me just even talking about 

Host: it. Oh, good. Awesome. Okay. Um, Mason, go ahead. And then Christine. 

Mason: Okay. so my [00:09:00] understanding is that wanting and liking can happen at the same time, even though they're distinct processes.

So in the case, so in Lynn's case, the, the want, the wanting, the duck caused the behavior of turning away from her. That was a behavior 

Host: true. 

Mason: He has to look for the food. I mean, that's, it's about, it's about looking for something. It's the incentive to look for the reward. Right? Would that be 

Host: so Yes. I think the thing about wanting or motivation is that very often when we talk about it, it's in the context of putting in at least like a moderate amount of effort.

Right? Because if you're. If the food is being put in front of you and you're eating it, that's still technically putting in work and that's a behavior. So I don't know that turning the head No. I mean, I don't think you're wrong. 

Mason: He actually had to be up with his front paws on the kennel door and stay up high to get the duck so that I could reach under him to touch the [00:10:00] harness.

Oh, so it could, you could be right. 

Host: Yeah. 

Mason: He had to be hungrier. Neither would've. Triggered it. Right, 

Host: right. 

Mason: I also assume that it, that there is some kind of work involved in turning away from something that perturbs you. You're actually, you're making a cho. It's the work of choosing. I choose to do this instead of that.

Anyway, 

Host: so maybe, but what I was going to say and then decided not to say, but I'll say it now, is it could be an automatic process, right? So that shift in attention could be intentional, but it could also be. Unintentional, and we don't really know which, you know, without getting more data. So I, I think both things could be true depending on the individual and the situation.

Mason: Okay. I wanted to talk about something different. I just got sidetracked about this question, I was thinking of Finn, your dog, Christina, in terms of the, uh, the constant quest for the squirrel, for instance. Yes, 

Host: yes. 

Mason: And then the [00:11:00] lack of fulfillment. I mean, I think one of, so one, one type of situation we might see is for a dog who is driven by a restless pursuit and not experiencing much satisfaction.

And then what do we do in those cases? Because there's a, mm-hmm. Kind of a mismatch between the, uh, the wanting and. Any experience of liking and that in humans we know produces um, bad psychological effects. Yeah, like depression and anxiety sometimes, you know, e even nihilism, I don't know if dogs can be nihilistic, but whatever.

So, so that might be one scenario that we can think about and I'd be interested in people's like thoughts about how do we provide more liking. For the dogs? Not necessarily. I don't think it necessarily has to be related to the pursuit. So in other words, maybe Finn can have a, an experience in the park of looking for squirrels and not getting them, and then have some kind of resolution through a satisfactory liking experience that helps him, uh, that helps balance out those two dynamics.

And then I guess [00:12:00] the other thing, and I'm not sure that, that this actually exists, is do, do people know of dogs who have liking but not much wanting? Who basically are a little hedonists, I think the coach potato, you know, comment from my clients. And, and if so, is that. Is that a state that we accept as kind of like the dog's temperament?

Like this is just a dog who enjoys life and is a happy go lucky, you know, couch potato, or are, you know, should we provide a, should we be providing more, more situations to create wanting for that dog and how would we make that? Decision, like I think those are interesting questions to kind of think about in terms of, so I'll put them out there and then let people 

Host: Yeah.

Uh, I'm gonna let Chris Ann and maybe a couple other people go first and then I'm, I'll come, I can go back to both of those questions actually, if someone else doesn't address them. 

Speaker 10: So my question is about motivation. So I'm sitting here trying to think of a good example. So I really like to ride horses, right?

I mean, I have, I love riding horses. If I have two horses standing in front of [00:13:00] me, one is a horse that I don't know and the other is my marere. I know that I am that I would like to ride either horse, but I wanna ride my mare because I know when I get on my mare, the result, the feeling that I'm going to get, the experience of being in the relationship with that particular horse gives me something.

Very much on another level from just my liking of riding. So my question is, so I'm thinking now I have a dog and that dog has two toys, one toy. Well, I don't need to do another example. I think that's a good enough example. So my question is about motivation. You know, we, we say that. Want, want that. We are more willing to work for something that we want than just for something that we like.

But what's the relationship of work? And I know this is a tricky question, but the whole idea of motivation and how wanting might drive behavior. Whereas liking would not drive behavior and where motivation fits in there. 

Host: Yeah. So [00:14:00] the motivation piece of things is the wanting piece. That's typically how they're equated.

People are asking if, if wanting or liking would be more related to seeking. That was a question in the chat. So wanting is considered to be the seeking system. That's what it's, and so dopamine, so that, so that can be really reinforcing and, and this, so what I was wondering Christina, is do you think that you would say.

When you're writing your mare that you're in flow or more likely to be in flow. 

Speaker 10: Yes. 

Host: Yeah. So for people who don't know what flow is, uh, flow is this highly reinforcing state that people and possibly other animals experience when they're engaged in a high skill. Behavior that they are really, really good at.

It's very, very, very reinforcing and it you kind of, you become very much in the moment, very much focused on what you're doing. And you can feel this in all kinds of things like horseback riding, training, dogs, music, video [00:15:00] games, sports, all kinds of different things. And so one of the things that the flow researchers talk about is dark flow, which is when flow can start to.

Move over into sort of addiction or addiction like behaviors. And so that makes me think that there's probably a connection between flow and wanting. And so I think you're right, like it seems right to me that you're describing wanting to ride your marere as being different from liking. Not that you don't also like it, but that there's this drive to.

Ride the mayor or experience flow. So I don't know how clearly I'm answering your question, but I would say that wanting is much more associated with motivation. Than liking. 

Speaker 10: Okay. Okay. So when we're talking about motivating operations and trying to create a behavior in an animal or support a behavior in an animal, we want want not just like 

Host: Yes.

So [00:16:00] liking alone is not enough to drive behavior. You have to have liking of the reinforcer and. Wanting. If you just have liking, you won't get the behavior. Okay. I think Suzanne is next. No, Wendy. Oh my gosh, there's so many. I dunno why Zoom started. Wendy 

Wendy: is next. And 

Host: then, okay. Zoom doesn't put you guys in order anymore, which drives me up the wall.

So thank you Wendy first and then Suzanne. 

Wendy: So responding to what one of the things Mason asked, and then I have a question. With, with respect to dogs wanting, with respect to dogs predating, trying to chase something and not having the opportunity to catch it. There are people who teach to carry a toy so that the dog can do some stalking behavior, but then be redirected and complete that predatory pattern, and Simona Miller teaches that, and she has success with that, with highly predatory dogs.

My question is about dogs with anhedonia dogs who, yeah. Persistent negative mood. Um, is [00:17:00] that affecting liking, wanting both? Is there, do we know, 

Host: let me think about this for a second. 'cause my initial answer is no. I don't know. But let me see if I can dredge anything up from my memory. So anhedonia, I don't know.

And, and now I really wanna know, 

Mason: I did do a little Google. I can read you something that I found if people are interested. Okay. So some forms of depression involved. Preserved wanting, still pursuing activity and maintaining routines, but blunted liking. 

Host: Yeah, 

Mason: nothing feels rewarding anymore. 

Yeah, and I'm just gonna 

throw in there, 

I think.

Systems might be suppressed in this case, but yeah, probably the liking is really the, the blunted one. So you might still see some of the seeking behavior, but anyway, 

Speaker 10: but Christina, don't you 

Mason: think 

Speaker 10: that that, that the diagnosis, I dread to use the word of anhedonia, is frequently, I mean, a shutdown dog may be considered an hedonic.

I just think that's a really tricky word to [00:18:00] use when we're talking about canine behavior. 

Host: So anhedonia is a symptom. I wouldn't, I mean, maybe some people use it as a diagnosis, but I would consider it to be a symptom. And I don't know if people are using it. I haven't heard people talk about an, I mean other than like within this group, I haven't heard people talk about anhedonia as the symptom or a diagnosis in dogs.

They do talk about it in the animal research and they'll, you know, now I think, yeah, I would have to look into it because you're talking about Mason depression. That is. A diagnosis that includes a symptom of anhedonia. And so I would expect, I mean, I know that the neurobiology of depression is quite complex, whereas anhedonia might not be quite as complex because we're only looking at a little sliver of all the different things that make up depression.

So I would have to look into the research on that. I'm trying to even remember how they measure [00:19:00] anhedonia and rodents think. So this is very interesting because it may, what we think we know about this may depend on how the research is done, right? So if they're looking at how strong of a preference does the rodent show for sugar water, which is what they often will they like, 'cause they really like sugar water.

so if they're looking at how much do they prefer sugar water, then that's gonna be more liking. But if they're looking at how hard will they work for sugar water? That's gonna be more wanting, so I would have to look into how the anhedonia studies are measuring anhedonia. Dunno the answer to that question.

But I am now motivated to find out, so I will probably get back to you guys on that and I'm sure even that is, is complex. Okay, now I think Suzanne is next. And then before we go to the rest of the people with their hand up all, I'm gonna return it to the chat. Go ahead first, Suzanne. 

Suzanne: Okay. So kind of going back to the beginning again a little bit, and I'm hoping that I [00:20:00] can express this, right, so when we very first started into this conversation, and you know, you said that.

You know, wanting or craving drives they're working for, but not necessarily liking. For me, looking at it in terms of what we do for our careers, our living there feels like an ick factor, a little bit in using, wanting, and I didn't know if anyone else felt that and I, and so, you know. Liking is not enough for motivation, but it seems like we have to be very more aware, even than I previously thought of what emotions we're driving and playing with when we're working with animals.

Because that fine line between like kind of mining a craving versus feeding a wanting or a liking or you know. Invigorating. A liking seems like fine, like a fine line and something that I don't know, that just brought this little bit of ick factor in for me [00:21:00] and I just wondered if anyone else was feeling that or has a better way of saying it, or I just really, it really stopped me in my tracks, that very opening part and.

Thinking about how careful we need to be with that emotional landscape that we're playing around with. 

Host: Yeah, great point. 

Speaker 4: Quick pause here because what you're hearing in this conversation is also a great window into how I teach unlocking resilience. Unlocking resilience is a deep integrative course for professionals who want to better understand how stress shapes behavior, and how to support real resilience, not just short-term behavior change.

We connect stress, emotion, cognition, neurobiology, learning and wellbeing into a framework that you can actually use when working with complex cases. If you find yourself craving more clarity, confidence, and more room to think beyond protocols and checklists, then this course was built for you. The next cohort starts on February 4th, and you can learn [00:22:00] more@sciencemattersllc.com or click the link in the show notes.

Okay, let's get. 

Host: Does anyone wanna jump in on that? A couple people are saying, uh uh, in the chat. So Christine said, great point, Suzanne. And then Mason said, who else was horrified when reading Don't shoot the dog and coming across the gambling slash slot machine comparison.

See up at that. I want people to be able to jump in and respond to Suzanne, but, and then we'll get back on track with the, the chat and the people who have their hands up. So, does anyone wanna respond to Suzanne? Uh, Juliet? 

Unknown 2: Yeah. yeah, that's exactly why I don't think I tell clients not to have the guest get a treat.

Give a treat, because I don't want the dog. Doing something for that treat that we, that the dog isn't ready to do. And so it's, it's just like what Suzanne was saying in my mind, it's just like what Suzanne was saying [00:23:00] in the sense that we're leveraging that to a point where the dog doesn't even, is doing things that the dog doesn't want to do otherwise.

Host: Yeah. And I think that's. It's, and then Wendy made the point that we have to consider if we're using reinforcers in a coercive manner. And I think that's maybe what you guys are getting at too, right? Is are we using something that they really, really want to get them to do? Something that they don't really like.

Suzanne: Oh my God, I'm having like a meltdown over. Okay. 

Host: Mason, are you responding to Suzanne's question? 

Mason: Yes. I think, you know, beyond just the specifics of that one, one example that Juliet used, I think, and this is something that Chrisanne has spoken to so eloquently in so many groups, that, that when she's talk, when she talked about, , Chrisanne, you talked about your experience with the first experience of clicker training with one of your dogs, which is that for some dogs and possibly for some people, the overall dynamic of the click and treat and the [00:24:00] external reinforcement.

Have a powerful nature, creates a frenzied, somewhat addicted vibe, for lack of a better word, in the dynamic between the human and their dog and in the way that the dog relates to the world. And that that is not something that, I mean, it's something that some people seek with their dogs, and it's something, and it's something that some people want to avoid because they feel it interferes.

It sort of is interfering what we imagined to be the dog's authentic self and their internal compass and what they actually. Like and need and want and that we are restructuring it in a learning dynamic that completely transforms the dog's relationship both to us and their world. And this should not be done lately.

Host: Yes. Wow. Yes. Okay, so I'm just gonna go back to the chat real quick and then we're gonna go back to Shannon who has been waiting very patiently. And maybe now would be the time for me to speak to what you were saying about Finn earlier. 'cause the chat. Relates to this. So Alice had said, the pursuit is its own reward.

My [00:25:00] dog loves to dig after ground squirrels. She has never come close to catching one yet. The hunting digging behavior continues to be extremely strong year after year, and it is enrichment for her. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think this is very enriching for a lot of dogs, and I think you're right that for a lot of dogs, the pursuit is the reward.

I think that's true for my Beagle and many other dogs that I have worked with. Finn, I thought it was really interesting that you brought up Finn Mason because the video, that I played at the last Research Bites, which unfortunately I can't, I don't have it queued up here, and the people listening to the recording wouldn't be able to see it anyway, and you can't even really see it that much on the video.

But what Finn will do when we're in a squirrel heavy area is he will just charge headlong. To every tree. The squirrel is not there anymore, and then he looks for the next squirrel and charges headlong to the next tree, and his eyes are super dilated and he's panting like crazy. I don't, I was watching him on this walk and I was [00:26:00] thinking, I do not think that he is having fun.

He is driven to chase after these squirrels, but I just didn't have the sense that he was enjoying himself. And I was like, is this what wanting without liking feels like or looks like? 'cause I don't know what it felt like to him, but so yeah, I, I kind of went there too. And it's interesting, so we used to carry toys with us all the time so that he didn't, you know, bite mount, you know, jump up and melt down on us, and that he could do it on the toy.

But I've never tried redirecting him from squirrels to a toy. So I'm interested to try that. My guess is that he will not care about the toy in that scenario, but I'm gonna try it and I'll report back to you guys and, and if he doesn't care about it in that scenario, maybe we can like work him up to it.

But it's an interesting thought, so yeah. So I'm curious to try it, but that's what I, I, I think you're absolutely right, Mason, that [00:27:00] there's no like fulfillment there. And that that, and I don't know what it feels like for him, but I don't think that it's enriching for him. For other dogs, a hundred percent.

I don't think it's enriching for him when he's in that state and maybe a toy with meat in it he'll eat. Yeah. Interesting. And I mean, if it's moving, like if it's a flirt pole, maybe. 

, Shannon. Go ahead. 

Unknown 3: I was gonna say in response to that, yes, FLA pull and yes. To maybe like, making him like a little like. Of an, a fake animal thing that he could shred apart, like a toilet paper roll with treats in it. And he, he, he actually gets to like, dissect it and eat it.

Right. 

Host: Like a little bomb that I bring on the walk. 

Unknown 3: Yeah. 

Host: That's 

Unknown 3: interesting. I could also bring he a and then he goes after this other thing instead and then he gets to like destroy, open it, eat it, dissect it, like finish that cycle. Right. 

Host: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's an interesting, or I could bring a brand new toy that he can dissect.

Unknown 3: Sure, yeah. 

Host: Do that. Yeah. I'm, I'm excited to try these things. 

Unknown 3: okay. My question [00:28:00] is, in the sense of another word to throw in the mix here that we use, like often in like pathological sense of, I've actually not used like very much, but like, want versus need and need is more on the, like there is a pathology sense.

This is a need to monitor, there's a need for whatever else, right. And then flipping it to like non-pathological, but like there's just straight up puppy. Like I think about wanting to play, like I'm like running this puppy day school and they're just nonstop wanna play. If I just let them do what they want all the time, it would be just play with each other.

There is a need, for example, that they need to go potty. If I was to present them with the option to go potty together, they would not, they would just play right. They, you know, so you have to like orchestrate them going potty and then coming back into play is like the reinforcer for going potty. I just think it kind of adds an interesting like element to it 'cause need.

Plays two different roles there on a spectrum of [00:29:00] like a definition of need being thrown into the mix versus want and like, and I wondered what people's thoughts are on that. And I thought kind of related to what Suzanne was saying, a want versus a need and like exploiting their need. Mm-hmm. 

Host: Yeah.

Thoughts on that? 

Suzanne: I mean, I guess when you come right down to it, training is exploitation of wanting or needing or liking, you know, I mean, I think, that's what we do, but I do feel. Especially strongly at the moment about what Mason said and what I said about maybe being a little more thoughtful, how and where and what.

Relation to that? I dunno. 

Host: I mean, I think that's why so many of us have moved away from pure, I don't know, q driven interactions. I, I, I don't know if there's a better way to say that, but I think that's why so many people are talking about relationship and talking about agency and enrichment so that it's not so transactional.

Right. And I do think that there are ways to. And maybe [00:30:00] train is not the right word, but there, there are ways to live well with our animals without being as transactional as we are now. I mean, if you look at how, no, I mean if you look at how people raise children and there's a huge range, right? Of course.

But I would say probably most people don't raise children in a super transactional way. where they're like. Okay. You know, you go clean your room and then you'll get some lollipops. I mean, people do that, but even, I mean, I would even say it goes almost in the other direction where if people are raising their children in that way, there's often a lot of judgment that they're, I don't know, spoiling them or, or, or not being strict enough or something.

So I think there are ways to do it, and it's interesting to me, like I, I wonder sometimes, like, when did we. Develop this type of relationship with dogs. Like probably a lot of people know Sean, the, is it Sean, the sheep man? He is got an Instagram channel or whatever where he shows him working with his dogs on [00:31:00] a working sheep farm and he's training his new puppy.

I don't usually watch him, but I just happen to look the other day. And he has a new border colleague that he's training and he is been talking a little bit through how he's, he's doing that and one of the ways is just to let the dog go. And sort of run around with the older dog while the older dog is hurting the sheep.

And he's kind of figuring it out, you know, as she's doing it. I mean, he's obviously had a little bit of training already, but, and I don't know anything other than watching that one little video about how this guy trains his dogs. But what it, you know, what I was thinking about as I was watching this is it's not transaction.

Like, it does not, it did not look transactional to me. He's using all these other ways of training the dog. Which seemed to be much more akin to how we tend to raise children. So I thought that was interesting. Heather, go ahead. 

Unknown 4: So this may have been covered in the interim, 'cause I really like what you just said, but, um, I'm curious.

So what, what I talk a lot about in [00:32:00] training is that same thing with luring. That I don't love luring in a lot of situations. I mean, this is obviously behavior because it sets the dog up for that emotional conflict, which is, I really want that treat, but I have to do something scary. And then I start associating every time she comes towards me.

With that, my favorite treat, I know I'm gonna be put into a scary situation and I liken it to, you know, I will never be shy on eating all the donuts somebody brings to a meeting, but if you put me in a snake pit, do not feed me donuts. In order to help me climb out, you know, it's, it's like, no, I don't want the donuts.

I can't do it. I'm on overstimulation. So I'm curious how that plays in. And then also. The same piece of, I think it's called the Premack Syndrome, you know, where it's like, Hey, I'll do something I don't like in order. I mean, grandma's theory of eat your meat, so you get dessert, eat the broccoli. But how Premack goes into this liking, wanting that, it's not quite so icky if we don't have the expectation [00:33:00] of, Hey, I gave you the treat, therefore you must deliver behavior.

It's more, Hey, you, you want this? Yeah. I'm asking you to work a little bit for it to fulfill your brain than. Just, I see transactional a lot in the behavior, which is I shoved food in front of your face trying to get you away from being reactive. And it's like we're, that's an emotional state, whereas the other things can work.

Kind of this treat, reward, liking can work when we're trying to. Shape or reinforce a behavior. I don't know if that all made sense, but it's really coming back that setting up for conflict luring and then pre Mac and just seeing if you have any addition to that thought process going in my head. 

Host: Well, I, I mean, what it makes me wonder, and I think I've sort of been wondering this for a while, that didn't necessarily have it fully formed in my brain.

Sometimes I, I have this kind of negative response to people who are like, oh, I, you know, before I come to class, I go to the butcher and I get, you know, like, I don't know, beef long. And I cut it up and that's what I used for my dog in class. And I, I've had a [00:34:00] negative response to that for a while. And I think what it is, is it makes me wonder, I'm like, well, if you have to go to that level to get your dog to work with you, maybe there's like, maybe we, maybe the environment is too difficult or you know, like maybe we need to start to look at other things because we're then you're just.

Dealing with the liking piece without all the other components. And so that, I think that's kind of related to what you're saying, right? Like to put it in a more like reactive dog context, maybe we need to be further away. So that we don't have to use the most amazing fruits in the world. Now, I know that's not always possible.

I mean, every time I say that, I think about people living in like dense urban areas, and maybe you do have to use the beef long, you know, in certain situations there. But obviously that's not our first choice. The first choice is can we change something else so that the. Can be or wants to be more responsive than just like [00:35:00] paying them a million dollars to do something that they don't really wanna do.

Okay. I know I haven't been keeping up with the chat, so I apologize 'cause there's been lots of discussion over there. But I'm terrible at multitasking. So, we are, we always, usually we run over on the coffee breaks, but all the hands have gone down. Does anyone wanna say anything else or ask any other questions before we wrap up?

Shannon? 

Unknown 3: I think I was gonna say like in the spirit of like not having doomsday about training, it's just that, like with some of the things that we talked about being yes, we need to be careful about, but even in examples like the last one you shared, like I think there's a way to have balance in like if you're gonna use the beef flunk with the goal of like, we're gonna move down to the other lower value food so that the dog will take, you know, most, any food reliably when in X environment or.

You know, if we're doing a transactional behavior, it's because a dog might need to get through a certain thing in life and they need to Yes. [00:36:00] Build that skill and whatever, whatever. And so that's kind of what we need to come back to all the time when we're thinking about these things. 

Host: Yeah, and I, I definitely agree with you.

You know, I'm not saying that we never wanna use those things. I worry that. For, in some cases it's the only tool that people are going to, and that concerns me. But you're right. I mean, there's situations where I think we do have to pull out the most amazing food to, like you said, to get them through something that that is not optional or would cause them harm in other ways.

Right. If we weren't able to do that, like vet care and things like that. 

Unknown 3: Yeah. Or we call it like doing the reps like. Getting, getting the reps in because then it becomes a familiar behavior, which then is less scary, right? 

Host: Yeah. 

Okay. Faith. 

Unknown 6: Well, I just wanted to say, what I find is, what I love about Research Bites is just this group is just so, like, constantly has me thinking of new things and um, I wanna give a shout out, especially to Mason and Chrisanne, [00:37:00] just after meeting them at Research Bites and being in book club, I'm with them.

I've recently kind of steered clear of a, a mentor that I had that was insisting that everything had to be by the book. And I've learned, especially from Mason and Chrisanne, that my cases have gotten significantly improved because they've, you know, really had me remember to focus on the dog in front of me, put all those formulas outta my mind.

And then Mason in particular, I was thinking actually about her today. I was like, I wish I could go to Canada and just like go play at her house. ' cause she always tells us she's on the floor and then she's got the clients on the floor and they're playing. And I think that's like, that's kind of how I raise my children.

A balance of, you know, we have rules and, and boundaries, but we also play and have fun. And thank goodness they aren't in prison. They're, you know, contributing mentors to society. So anyway, I just wanted to say that 'cause I just love research bite so much. Thank you, Christina. 

Host: Well, thank you Faith. 

Unknown 6: It's such a [00:38:00] great, it's just amazing.

Host: Thank you Suzanne. Go ahead. 

Suzanne: Okay, so, I had just a few things that I, I just, I think that this is a conversation that I hope we get to continue, first of all, because I have questions about how do we talk about this with our people, our clients, our students, whatever. How much can we expect from, how do we set expectations about what dogs can and can't do if it we, if it's less transactional and how to get there and how to build that patience for that in our people.

And yeah. And you know, in terms of like the beef liver at class thing that, that you mentioned like a lot of my people in class, that is them for sure. You know, like, and, and I'm like, you better bring the good stuff. Because, you know, first day of class is a bunch of new dogs who are all like, Hey, you know, dogs, people, yay.

And, and so I, that may gave me food for the thought [00:39:00] for sure. And I, I wanna say that although I think Chrisanne maybe mentioned, you know, that transactional rate relationships can be quite toxic. I also see those first. Maybe weeks with those people in class who are having to use the highest value foods.

I do see some relationship building happen because they are offering something of value to the dog. They're meeting that dog in the moment where they are. And so here's another thing that I think we just have to be hyper vigilant with, you know, and observant with, but that's me. 

Host: I think too, from what I know of you, Suzanne, I think you are doing a lot of relationship building in class through what 

Suzanne: Ton 

Host: teaching.

And so I think that there's more going on than just that transactional. And it's funny, I mean, when we talk about transactional, right? Like if you go into the literature. On social relationships. Social relationships are transactional. We might call it reciprocity, but that's transactional. I don't [00:40:00] know what the word.

Yeah, it's transactional. I don't even know if it's possible to truly get away from that, but maybe there's nuances there in terms of how, you know, our attitude about it or the amount of choice that the animal has. I mean, it's interesting. Or, or maybe it has to do with how much of a two-way street it is, right?

That it's not just us saying, do this for me and I'll do this for you. But the animal also has the ability to say, Hey, can you do this for me too? So 

Suzanne: reciprocity is a good word for it. 

Host: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Chrisanne and then Lynn. And then we should probably stop. 

Speaker 10: I just wanted to dive a little deeper into this transactional thing, because as everybody here knows, this is a real trigger for me.

A, I think it's so important to. Always look at the dog in front of you. There are the vast majority of dogs. The vast majority I believe, of dogs that come into training situations are going to do just fine with [00:41:00] transactional relationships that use high value treats to get something, you know, and then they're gonna step down and that's all gonna do really well, and the relationship is going to grow as that process happens.

And that's hunky dory. But as trainers, and again, the word trainer. Is a trigger for me, but as people who work with dogs and are trying to improve. The welfare of dogs' lives and meet their, meet their needs. If you don't recognize that dog that is going to be fractured by that use of luring and transactional relationship, you are doing tremendous harm.

And so that's, that. That's just my, my word there that, you know, the dogs that I work with, I mean, I, in the early days of doing this, I've told these stories many times, but I damage dogs so profoundly. Because I did exactly that, not recognizing the depth of their maladaptive fear. So that's all I'm saying is that we always have to be so critically aware of the dog in front of us [00:42:00] in any training situation, and to be able to kindly or effectively say to that dog guardian.

I think we need to move into another room or you know, blah, blah, blah. So that's all. 

Host: Yeah, I think that's a really good point. I mean, that's one of the things that's so remarkable at dogs is that there's, on average, they're incredibly resilient. All the things that we put them through and they have to deal with.

I mean, truly most of them are fine. Yeah. And most of them can deal with all kinds of awful things. And really pretty much be okay. So, yeah, that's, I think that's a really, really important point. Alright, Lynn, 

Mason: I have two comments to make. The first one being that this discussion has really triggered some thoughts in my head about how to use agency to move dogs from want to light and understanding that they have choice and that they have some control.

I think that's, I'm gonna always try to find a way to do that. And I think that might've been [00:43:00] how we did the, the cheese and duck thing. So I'm gonna work on that and incorporating that into everything I do with dogs. And then the second thing I have to say is that I think that there's at least two and possibly three more coffee breaks that we could do just this information.

And that's why I come here because. It always leaves me with more questions and answers and I love it. 

Host: Thank you. Yes. Sometimes that sounds like a bad thing, but I think it just means we're learning more and more. You know, we, we learn things and then we have more questions 'cause we're thinking about things in a way.

We weren't thinking about them people. 

Mason: So Shannon just put in the chat, we don't just like this group, we want this group. Yes. Wonderful way to wrap up.

Speaker: If you enjoyed that conversation, what you just heard is exactly what happens inside research bites. Each month we dig into current research together, not just the findings, but the [00:44:00] nuance, the limitations, and the real world applications. If you want a space to think critically, ask questions, and stay connected to the science without feeling overwhelmed, research bites might be a great fit for you, and I'd love to welcome you to the conversation.

You can learn more. Science Matters llc com or click on the link in. 

Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to the Research Bytes podcast. If you enjoyed this content and would like to learn more, please visit www.sciencemattersllc.com. For more information, you can also find the link in the podcast description. The website has information on upcoming events, as well as my monthly research, webinars, and upcoming courses.

I hope to see you there. Thank [00:45:00] you.