44-Jane McLelland - Blocking Cancer Pathways with Off-Label Drugs

A cancer diagnosis is frightening.  A terminal diagnosis can be absolutely paralyzing.  But when  Jane McLelland was diagnosed with a second aggressive cancer in 1999, classified as terminal, she did not freeze.  Instead she dove headfirst into medical research because she knew she had nothing to lose.

Fast forward to 2021 and find out how Jane is trying to turn the world of oncology on its ear.  She's not only overcome her diagnoses, but she is thriving and sharing her knowledge that she knows first hand has had a strong, positive impact on her health.

This episode will educate, inspire and encourage anyone who may be on a cancer journey today.  Join me as Jane shares about repurposed/off-label drugs, her Metro Map protocol, the effects of "starving cancer" and so much more!

Connect with Jane on her website:
https://www.howtostarvecancer.com/contact/

Suggested Resource Links:

• BOOK:  How To Starve Cancer
• LINK:  PubMed
• Warburg Effect (National Library of Medicine, PubMed)
• Glossary of terms Jane references and more
• LINK:  Metro Map Protocol (podcast)
• International Doctors familiar with Jane's Metro Map Protocol

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Transcript

Ivelisse Page: 0:06

Hi, I'm Ivelisse Page and thanks for listening to the Believe Big podcast, the show where we take a deep dive into your healing with health experts, integrative practitioners, biblical faith leaders, and cancer thrivers from around the globe. Welcome to today's episode on the Believe Big podcast. My name is Ivelisse Page, and it's an honor to spend this time with you. The use of off-label drugs for treating cancer is finally gaining traction, yet our guest today, Jane McLellan discovered it herself in 2003. A little bit about Jane. Jane is a long-term survivor of stage four cancer. She's a former chartered physiotherapist, and Jane is an award-winning author of How to Starve Cancer, in which describes her journey through cancer and her battle with infertility. She's best known for her metro map, a simple diagram of the complexity of cancer metabolism, and for bringing the new approach to the public. Because of her efforts to educate cancer patients since 2004, Jane was awarded Amazing Woman Global 2019 Lifetime Achievement Award. She also won the UK Health Radio Award in 2022 for cancer services. Such an honor, welcome Jane to the show!

Jane McLelland: 1:42

Thanks so much for having me on.

Ivelisse Page: 1:44

So our listeners are always interested in discovering what our guests favorite health tip is, and I know you have many, but can you share one with us?

Jane McLelland: 1:52

Gosh there, there are a lot, but I think if you're trying to, prevent cancer or if you're trying to treat cancer looking after your gut, it's not something I talk about an awful lot in my book, but actually looking after your gut is something which I do stress as particularly for prevention as well. There's a lot of evidence to suggest leaky gut actually causes pathogens to get into the whole system. So we need to be really looking after our gut really well. So lots of probiotics and kefir and things like that. If you are, trying to prevent cancer, I think that's really critically important. And you can get non-dairy kefir type things as well, made from coconut and things like that as well. So I think it's really important to be looking after your gut all the way through your life. It is something I'm not always brilliant at. I have to remind myself to get back on the program. And bifidobacteria in particular, I think for cancer are really important. And if you haven't got enough levels, I think an occasional boost is quite useful as well.

Ivelisse Page: 2:51

Yeah, I completely agree. And I think it's a area that a lot of people don't realize and the importance, especially with the food quality, at least here in the United States, it's a lot better there in the UK where you are, but.

Jane McLelland: 3:03

I don't think so.

Ivelisse Page: 3:04

No, okay.

Jane McLelland: 3:05

I don't think we have as many GMO crops as you do, but, I think we actually we can get a lot more organic stuff from Europe as well, but I think our standards are not as high as I would like.

Ivelisse Page: 3:16

Yes, for all of us. So hopefully we'll change some of that as well. You mentioned in your book that during your cancer journey you became a Cancer PubMed Sherlock Holmes. I love that. You discovered that research was focused primarily on the activities of genes in cancer, but what made you curious was the rest of the tumor, like the growth factors it used to fuel and et cetera. So can you share a little bit about that?

Jane McLelland: 3:42

Yeah, so I obviously learned a little bit about Otto Warburg when I was going through my journey, but there wasn't an awful lot, it was very hard to actually research back in my day because the internet was still fledgling and, it was very hard unless I actually went into hospitals or I looked through the journals or I got lots of magazines on stuff as well. It was really quite a journey back then, and I was lucky to actually stumble across some of the stuff that I did and get the off-label drugs that I could see enormous potential for. And I was, again, very lucky to actually have a doctor who was willing to prescribe them. But as things have evolved and PubMed became more available online, I, I, even this day I read probably four or five articles on PubMed every day

Ivelisse Page: 4:31

That's fantastic.

Jane McLelland: 4:32

And I'm constantly trying to see where things are going. The, whole area of metabolism and cancer is moving a lot every day. So it's really important to try and stay on top of it. I have many Google searches for all sorts of things on my computer, so I'm constantly flagging up things that I want to have a little look. You dive down into these little rabbit holes sometimes and then you come out somewhere completely different. But it's a journey of discovery and I actually quite enjoy it, and I like to find answers. I'm always sure there's an answer to something somewhere. If you're at weird growth factors, or I know that there's probably an off-label drug or a supplement that will probably do something against that particular pathway. So I'm constantly delving around, digging around, trying to find answers. And I find it a challenge and I like it actually.

Ivelisse Page: 5:24

So good. And for those who are listening who are unfamiliar with the use of off-label drugs or repurposed drugs for cancer, what does that mean? What is the definition of a repurposed drug and how does that differ from traditional cancer treatments?

Jane McLelland: 5:38

Okay, so off-label means that drugs are given certain indications when they're approved by the FDA or the M H R A. in the UK, they are approved for a particular condition. So Metformin, for example, is approved for diabetes. Now it's off-label uses are now for cancer, although it's not actually approved for cancer. So unfortunately, because it's not an approved drug, it's not generally given. So it's off-label. Repurpose means just repurposing a drug for a new area of research. There are an awful lot of drugs being looked at to be repurposed for cancer treatment.

Ivelisse Page: 6:16

Yeah. One that I discovered, my brother-in-law actually shared with me as research he was doing when I was going through my cancer journey with colon cancer was Cimetidine. And he found a study that they said that patients who took 400 milligrams in the morning and at night before surgery and a year after had an 86% survival versus 33%, and that study was just like alarming to me, and I know it's the H2 blocker and things like that in there, but it's things like that, that patients aren't aware of that can really help.

Jane McLelland: 6:48

I actually use some Cimetidine myself as well, actually. So once I'd recovered from cancer, I didn't know that I had cystic fibrosis, that my immune system, I thought it was just my immune system was completely broken from the chemo, and I constantly kept on getting infection after infection and lung problems. And I always thought it was down to a rubbish immune system. And I think that was part of the problem. And in fact, I tested my immune system and it was something known as TH-2 dominant rather than TH-1. Those are your natural, TH-1 is your cancer killing zone, whereas TH-2 is more sort of allergic type of humoral response in the cells. And I needed to reverse that balance, and that's where I use Cimetidine and I use exactly the same dose. Actually, I use 400 morning and evening in order to reverse the TH-2 back to a TH-1 dominance in order to give me a bit more natural killer cells and general cells that would actually fight infection. Cuz I, I suffered for many years actually, not knowing that I had cystic fibrosis, which was only discovered a few months before Covid struck. So I was in a bit of a state at that point. Cause I wasn't given any drugs to cope with it or anything. But actually in September that year, of 2020, they came out or they were allowing my particular genetic mutations, which were not your normal cystic fibrosis mutations, but they approved the drugs for cystic fibrosis for my genetic mutations. Bingo. Wow. That just massive change.

Ivelisse Page: 8:16

That's incredible. That's incredible. And for people who don't know Cimetidine is the common name for Prevacid which is used often for heartburn.

Jane McLelland: 8:26

And there's another Tagamet.

Ivelisse Page: 8:27

Yes, Tagamet is another one. So can you also explain the basic principles of your starved cancer approach and how it works to limit cell growth?

Jane McLelland: 8:36

A basic thing to understand is that cancer cells are always hungry. They have this massive appetite for food. Because they're constantly dividing, they constantly need to create new macro molecules to make their daughter cells. So they need the dna, they need the organelles, they need the cell membranes. So they need to make a lot of protein. They need to make new fat. So that's all part of it. And that's driven by glucose is generally the fuel in order to create the process of making these new proteins and fats. And what happens is cancer breaks down glucose, it breaks down glutamine to actually fuel, and sometimes it breaks down fat as well in order to make the new cells. So my approach is actually to not just some of the glucose, but actually to look at blocking glutamine and fat pathways as well. So I created this triangle, my metro map, which effectively just goes through the key metabolic pathways that cancer uses to fuel itself. And the way I describe it is that if you block one pathway, cancer is very clever. It just uses another one. But you've got to work out what those synergistic pathways are in order to really get the best effect. And that's something we're still looking at the synergistic blocking of pathways. But certainly one is the normal OXPHOS or oxidative phosphorylation, which is the normal process of making ATP, which is the currency of energy. Cancer cells use a different process called glycolysis, but if you block the glycolysis, it just uses more OXPHOS, vice versa, if you block the OXPHOS, it uses more glycolysis. So you've actually got to work at blocking both together. And most people don't know that cancer cells consume and actually use an awful lot of glutamine as part of their process of making energy.

Ivelisse Page: 10:22

Interesting. Is that used for all cancers or do you find that some cancers you have, more of one...

Jane McLelland: 10:29

You've even got some cancers that are very arginine, which is another amino acid driven like sarcomas, and liver cancers are very arginine driven and some brain cancers are very arginine driven. There's a doctor who works down the road here at the Hammersmith Hospital. She uses a special drug and she's getting fantastic results just starving glutamine with this new drug, and I just hope I'm actually, I had a sarcoma patient on the phone this morning. I'm thinking, maybe we can use that for her as well, because it's blocking the arginine, which is the key fuel for sarcomas. It is very hard for doctors to justify something sometimes to allow somebody to have something on a compassionate use. She's stage four sarcoma, she's only in her early thirties and she needs some help. What do you do?

Ivelisse Page: 11:14

That's incredible. And we will put links in our show notes to your metro map link on how to contact you. And I know you have a list of practitioners that have learned your approach that kind of incorporate it into their integrative oncology that they work with their patients on. So we will make sure to put that on there. Can you give some other examples of repurposed drugs that have been used in cancer treatment and how they had limited cell growth?

Jane McLelland: 11:41

So my cocktail, just give you my personal cocktail and what worked for me. Initially I used Berberine, which is a natural form of Metformin, but later on I did use Metformin as well. That was part of my cocktail. They're both very good for treating diabetes and then I use Lovastatin. It's quite hard to get hold of Lovastatin these days. Most people either use Simvastatin or Atorvastatin and those statins are fat loving, very important to get fat loving statins. These generally lower cholesterol. They also have big anti-inflammatory effects and actually synergize really well with some non-steroidal anti-inflammatories. And the one that I chose was Etodolac. The combination of the statin together with the Etodolac make them five times more effective at killing cancer cells than individually. Statins on their own don't work very well, Metformin on its own doesn't work very well, the non-steroidal on its own, and suddenly you get this synergy by adding these things together because they're targeting different things and you get this exponential blocking of what you're trying to do. So those are the three things. And then I added Dipyridamole, which is an old platelet, antiplatelet drug. So it doesn't actually destroy your platelets. What it does is stops them sticking together. That allows your blood circulation to flow through properly. It doesn't allow the cancer cells to stick down into little metastatic niches, so it helps to keep the whole thing flowing. And actually temporarily I used aspirin. I didn't use aspirin and the Etodolac together, but I did use aspirin and Dipyridamole together to begin with until I swapped over to using Etodolac. But the Dipyridamole works synergistically with the statin. They both work on blocking cholesterol pathways. Like I said, with the OXPHOS and the glycolysis is the same with these two cholesterol pathways. If you block one, it'll just use the other one. So same thing, you're just blocking two synergistic pathways. And that's what I was doing. I was stopping the formation of cholesterol, which are important little blobs that every single cancer cell has on the surface. So it's just slowing down the ability for it to make those new cell membranes.

Ivelisse Page: 13:50

That's incredible. And I love that you said it's a synergistic effect, and you know a big part of therapy as well as mistletoe therapy. And people just say, oh, I just need some mistletoe and that'll cure my cancer. And it's never just one thing. And I love that you are working different pathways. You're synergistically working with many different aspects, not only these repurposed drugs or supplements and mistletoe therapy, whatever it may be. But what are some other practical tips for incorporating the starved cancer approach from your book into a person's cancer treatment plan besides, repurposed drugs?

Jane McLelland: 14:24

I've got four pillars really of starving the cancer. First one is your diet, and it doesn't have to be completely starving yourself. The whole point is that you are using these other things to back up what you're trying to do so you don't have to go on a completely starving. Some people do fast. There are many ways to do it, intermittent fasting. You can just have a low GI plus actually you, you have to have a fairly low protein diet. Ketogenic diet can be useful, but some people get resistant to that. It can lead to resistance after about 30 days. Again, you've got this problem where it's starting to use different pathways. Diet is a big one. Supplements, I used a heck of a lot of supplements. I was throwing an awful lot at myself because I didn't know enough about what was gonna work. But when I found something interesting in the literature into my routine it would go. So those supplements is the second thing. Exercise is obviously very good for starving the cancer. And, there are many ways that exercise will help. Aerobic exercise will actually oxygenate the tissue, but actually weightlifting, doing some weightlifting will actually starve the cancer even more effectively actually than the aerobic stuff. There are different ways that exercise actually works on cancer. And in fact, I do recommend that people exercise after they've had a meal. They don't have to do great big aerobic exercise after a meal, but they need to do enough just to curb that insulin spike and glucose spike that you get after a meal. So you just keep everything a bit lower so that can't, that doesn't feed the cancer in quite the same way.

Ivelisse Page: 15:54

I love that. So you have diet, supplements, exercise, and what's your last pillar

Jane McLelland: 15:58

Then you have label, off-label drugs as well.

Ivelisse Page: 16:00

Off-label drugs. Okay. And That's why it's really important to also know what's best for you as an individual, whether it's your diet or exercising, intermittent fasting. And we have a lot of practitioners that help you to determine what is best for you. And I know a lot of them use it before their traditional treatments, if they're pursuing that pathway. Cuz it will help the treatments to work better and also get rid of the toxins faster out of your body. And then exercise, I know that was a difficult one for me when I was in the middle of my journey cause I was so weak. But even just a walk. yeah. Or even just sitting with lightweights, and just lifting some lightweights while you're sitting watching a show or listening to music or reading. There are many ways, I love that you mentioned, to incorporate those things for your better health.

Jane McLelland: 16:43

This is particularly important I think actually if you've got cachexia, which is the wasting syndrome that you can get sometimes with cancer when it's starting to do this salvage autophagy, it's actually eating away at you and munching up parts of your muscle and your fat. This is where exercise can really help as well. And there are some supplements that will help improve cachexia. But you have to take them before you exercise again. You don't want the amino acids to go to feeding the cancer. You want it to go to building up your muscle, so it's important to take it at the right time. And cachexia is, I'm probably gonna do a blog on that fairly soon actually and put that in the newsletter. I think it's important. It kills quite a lot of people just wasting away rather than the actual cancer itself. And you have to be incredibly careful about your diet when it's cachexia as well.

Ivelisse Page: 17:32

Can you explain to people what cachexia is?

Jane McLelland: 17:34

There are several reasons that cachexia happens. One of the problems that you get with cancer is this inflammation, and this causes certain changes in the cancer metabolism. Cancer also has these little tiny microvesicles that it sheds off things called exosomes. I dunno whether you've heard of those before.

Ivelisse Page: 17:53

Yes.

Jane McLelland: 17:53

And these shed off and they take micro RNA and take all sorts of other instructions, and it takes some other particles as well to tell your muscles and your fat zones to break down, and then that gets put into the circulation to feed the tumor. So it's actually a parasite that's eating away at you, and it's that the cancer is actually instructing the body to break down, to feed itself, and you get this wasting of your muscles and your fat zones. When I had cancer, I noticed my inner thighs were thinner than they'd ever been before. And I knew it was unusual, and that was before I was diagnosed. I thought, wow, gosh, I have been exercising better than I normally do, and I couldn't understand. But actually I was misdiagnosed for an awfully long time. Yeah, I definitely had some cachexia changes going on even when I was first diagnosed back in 1994.

Ivelisse Page: 18:47

Can you share a brief little bit about your story for those who haven't heard your story of overcoming cervical cancer? Correct? Stage four?

Jane McLelland: 18:55

In a nutshell, I, I was diagnosed in 94 with cervical cancer that spread to my lungs in 99. So it became stage four As a result of all the treatments that I had, the high dose chemo, they told me that they'll probably kill me with these treatments because they overdosed me so much on all of that because they didn't think I was gonna survive anyway. But that then gave me bone marrow cancer, which actually is another really serious illness to try and overcome as well. And it was at that point that I knew I was controlling one cancer because my normal cancer markers for cervical cancer were okay. They were still in the normal range, but these other markers uh, which showed these glycolytic changes and various other things going on with the leukemia were way off the charts. So I had to change what I was doing. I thought, okay so the natural approaches, the intravenous vitamin C, all the other things that I was doing, I never tried mistletoe. I, couldn't get hold of it back then, but I certainly looked into it and, then I decided to investigate these off-label drugs as well. I thought, well, I've got nothing to lose here. I knew I only had a few weeks to live, unless I actually did something fairly radical. I had an understanding doctor, both my oncologist at the time actually. I had some wonderful integrative oncologists that I was working with as well. And I got this little cocktail prescribed, checked, I got'em from different people and then I checked that it was okay to add them all together. Eventually I got this little cocktail together, threw it all together and seven months later, markers were fine and no trace of cancer. Thank God. And I never got any side effects. I didn't even feel like I was on treatment. And that was the funny thing was you normally feel really terrible, awful sick, really shoddy when you're having treatment, but actually I didn't really feel like I was ill at all or really suffering during that time.

Ivelisse Page: 20:47

And that's something that is so important, and I think that if anything else, whether it's mistletoe or repurposed drugs that help you to go through something so difficult with a great quality of life is huge. Not only for the patient, but for their loved ones that are seeing them suffer. And I know that God spared your life for a huge reason to be able to educate and help so many others in these last years that we've had learning about this from you, and I know you have lots of stories from patients that have also been, you're not the only one, even though you were the first test case. You're not the only one that has benefited. Do you have a story that stands out to you that you can share briefly about someone else who kind of followed your metro map or repurposed drugs?

Jane McLelland: 21:31

I talk about two in my online course. I've got a lady, she was her2 positive, really bad stage four, but she went to the Seattle Integrative people. She did my protocol and then she got into remission. She's doing really well. And then it came back again and, I said, are you sure you've blocked all the right pathways? And we had a look, and she hadn't blocked the salvage autophagy pathway. And this is one of the things that cancer learns to use, maybe sometimes later on. And I said, block that one as well. We added that one into her protocol and bingo, she went back into remission again. So I love that the fact that she'd done really well. She got herself into remission and in fact now she's still, she's going strong. This is years later. She is now off all traditional meds. She's not had any more traditional meds. I'm not even sure she's even taking the off label drugs anymore. I think she's pretty much carrying on as a normal person would gone back to work and is fine. The other one I discuss in my course is this gentleman who had prostate cancer. His PSA was 1,007, and the reason for that was that he'd been having glutathione, which was fueling his cancer. I'm very wary about people taking glutathione, because it bleeds to resistance. It's a major antioxidant and you actually need to create some free radicals, which kind of pro-oxidants the opposite. And he had got to 1,007. He was in a wheelchair and it was a disaster. Spinal mets everywhere, paralyzed, partly paralyzed. And he did my protocol and got back down to his PSA is under one, and he's back water skiing, having a fantastic time. Lives in Hawaii.

Ivelisse Page: 23:13

Incredible. And you mentioned something about asking different physicians that you had to prescribe one or the other and other things. And there I just wanted to share that there are integrative oncologists out there and even oncologists who are willing to help monitor you and work with you. You just have to find the right ones. I know for myself, once I was two years out, I asked him, hey I'm taking Cimetidine, I'm taking all these things. Is there anything I should drop? And in your opinion, and he looked at me and he's like, do not change a thing.

Jane McLelland: 23:43

Whatever you're doing, keep doing it.

Ivelisse Page: 23:45

Yes, don't change a thing. It's working. And I think I probably stopped the Cimetidine four years after I was clear and I eased off of that. And I haven't been on it, but what advice do you have for individuals interested in incorporating this approach of starving cancer into their cancer management plan?

Jane McLelland: 24:02

Not to get overwhelmed, all right. If they read my book the key thing is not to get overwhelmed, try and get themselves in with one of the doctors if they can. And, they will get them on a basic program. And then from there, I guide people. People read my book many times. I do have an online course as well, which makes things much simpler for people to understand, and I go more into specific pathways of which supplements, which drugs work specifically more for different cancers. And I think people find that incredibly useful. But I think the main thing is to start somewhere. Some people read the book and then they don't really get that they actually need to start doing something. You're not going to overcome cancer if you've got stage four just with the traditional treatments, very unlikely. Even the new immunotherapies, they don't work as well as they'd like us to imagine they do. But incorporating some of these off-label drugs can be incredibly useful. They're now doing a trial for triple negative breast cancer using a new immunotherapy with Ivermectin because that boosts the tumor to make it instead of being cold, it makes it hot. That means infiltrating lymphocytes can get into it, and that's what Ivermectin does. It actually increases the amount of immune cells you actually get in the tumor. So there are many different ways to incorporate lots of different off-label drugs into your protocol and I think the big thing is to work out, if you're having chemo, there might be slightly different protocol to if you're having immunotherapy to if you're having a targeted drug, there are certain targeted drugs like osimertinib, which you have to take HDAC inhibitors at the same time. You don't need to know what those are necessary right now, but they are things like Hydroxybutyrate, but the butyrate kind of thing. So sodiumbutyrate and betahydroxybutyrate, which is a ketone, can actually help to block those. Those are the kind of things you need to know and try and work out your conventional treatment. Cause I'm not against conventional treatments at all. I think we just need to make them work better. At the moment, the cocktails aren't there. They're not targeting the metabolism of the cancer stem cells as well as, the fast dividing cells are also quite happily mutating. And you need to be able to stop all of that happening in various different ways and attacking the metabolism. Stopping the metabolism actually stops the cancer from mutating and finding a way around those treatments and becoming resistant. So it's all about making the treatments the normal conventional treatments that you have, more effective. I'm definitely not alternative. I'm most definitely complimentary.

Ivelisse Page: 26:32

Yes, myself as well. And I think too, what a lot of people don't realize is that traditional treatments like chemotherapy and radiation, they don't kill the stem cells. And that's why we have such a high recurrence rate because people go back, they said, oh, I'm cancer free, no evidence of disease. And they go back one to their old routines, or even if they didn't, they're not addressing those stem cells and it will come back. So it's really wise to incorporate the things that you're sharing to stop those pathways from rearing their ugly heads again.

Jane McLelland: 27:05

The cancer stem cells are so few, it's one per 10,000 of the cancer tumor cells are actually the cancer stem cells. But they are the tricky ones that really need to be stopped. So it can look like you got rid of a tumor on a scan, but actually, these little pesky stem cells can really cause an awful lot of trouble later on if you don't stop those too.

Ivelisse Page: 27:27

Yes. And so in closing, how do you see the repurposed drugs used in cancer treatment evolving in the future? What potential advancements are you most excited about?

Jane McLelland: 27:37

I have a big chapter on ferroptosis at the end of my second edition, and I know that is the future. It's a hot topic in research. It hasn't really made its way down to the bench, bedside yet, not in a big way, but I have got a few doctors doing it and getting fantastic results.

Ivelisse Page: 27:57

And what is that? Explain what that is real quick.

Jane McLelland: 27:59

Okay. Very quickly, so cancer loves iron. It has this massive appetite for iron. So you actually oxidize the iron in the cancer cells and that destroys the cell membranes. Something called peroxidase, it's just a sort of a destruction of the cell membrane itself and that destroys the cancer cell. Totally different way of causing cell death. Apoptosis is the normal cell death mechanism, but this is a slight variation on that, and you can use various things. There are many resistance pathways involved, so I do have a list of supplements and a list of drugs that try and target all of those different things at the same time. Again, it's got to be a cocktail that works. Intravenous vitamin C is part of it, but it doesn't work on its own. That's why a lot of people have intravenous vitamin C because that creates hydrogen peroxide. That's the oxygen that you need to trigger this oxidation of the iron. But you need to have it in combination with some other stuff. Doing intravenous Vitamin C on its own doesn't work. Artemisinin is obviously an important thing to have, but there are many other things you need in order to block all the different resistance pathways. Coq 10 is actually something that's going to stop ferroptosis. So actually statins are really critical cause they help to lower that antioxidant so you can create the ferroptosis much easier.

Ivelisse Page: 29:24

Incredible. So you think that's the future?

Jane McLelland: 29:27

I think that will work alongside immunotherapy and I think actually getting immunotherapies to work better is that currently the future. Everybody's gone from looking at chemotherapy, then they went into angiogenesis inhibitors, and then they've now gone immunotherapies. But certainly immunotherapies can be very helpful, but they need to be made more effective. And actually ferroptosis will work alongside immunotherapies as well. I've actually had mistletoe, because it's helping the immune system, really hugely beneficial. And, I think this is the way we're going is, trying to get the immune system to switch back on and actually beat the cancer. But you've gotta block some of the reasons why the immunotherapies don't work is because of the metabolic problems going on in the cells. So if you block those first, the immunotherapies are gonna work much better. So it's always a synergy of different things, and it's getting people to understand that you've got to stop things like the glucose will actually blocking glycolysis, that huge element where the cancer ferments the sugar will help immunotherapy to work better. So it's always many factors coming into play here in order to get a better result. And that's what I want people to know. It's always combination. That's my big thing. I say it so many times. It's always a combination of things that works.

Ivelisse Page: 30:41

Yes. thank you Jane so much. You are a huge knowledge of information and learned so much today. And I know that those who are listening really appreciate your insight. And again, we will put your link to your book and to the roadmap and your resources in the show notes so that people who are interested can dig deeper and become their own Sherlock Holmes of their cancer as well. So thank you for joining us.

Jane McLelland: 31:07

Thanks so much Ivelisse. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support our podcast, please subscribe and share it with others. Be sure to visit believebig.org to access the show notes and discover our bonus content. Thanks again and keep Believing Big!