Believe Big Podcast

116-Dr. Michael Karlfeldt - Why Cancer Returns

• Ivelisse Page • Season 4 • Episode 116

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Why does cancer so often come back, even after treatment appears successful? In this episode of the Believe Big Podcast, Ivelisse sits down with renowned naturopathic doctor Dr. Michael Karlfeldt to uncover the hidden root causes behind cancer recurrence and what patients can do to support true healing beyond tumor shrinkage.

Dr. Karlfeldt explains how chronic infections, environmental toxins, stress, unresolved trauma, and weakened immunity can create the perfect “terrain” for cancer to return, even years later. He also shares why conventional treatments alone may not be enough, how cancer stem cells can remain dormant, and the integrative strategies he’s seen help patients rebuild their health and resilience.

From mistletoe therapy and IV vitamin C to detoxification, immune restoration, functional testing, gratitude practices, nutrition, spiritual connection, and reducing toxic exposures, this conversation offers practical and hopeful insights for anyone navigating cancer, recovery, or prevention.

Whether you’re a patient, survivor, caregiver, or simply passionate about changing the future of cancer care, this episode will challenge the way you think about healing and inspire you to share it with someone who needs hope today.

Learn more about Dr. Michael Karlfeldt here.

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Ivelisse Page

Hi, I'm Ivelisse Page, and thanks for listening to the Believe Big Podcast, the show where we take a deep dive into your healing with health experts, integrative practitioners, biblical faith leaders, and cancer thrivers from around the globe. Welcome to today's episode on the Believe Big podcast. My name is Ivelisse Page and I'm always happy and thankful to spend this time with you. My guest today is Dr. Michael Karlfeldt. He is a board certified naturopathic doctor and the founder of the Karlfeldt Center in Boise, Idaho. With over 30 years of experience, he's dedicated his career to bridging the conventional and integrative medicine gap. He's the author of A Better Way to Treat Cancer and co-author of Breast Cancer Breakthrough and host of several popular podcasts, including Integrative Cancer Solutions, known for his compassionate science-based approach, Dr. Karlfeldt helps patients explore comprehensive pathways to healing and long-term wellness. Welcome to the show, Dr. Karlfeldt.

Favorite Health Tip

Dr. Michael Karlfeldt

Well, I am so excited. This is gonna be so fun.

Ivelisse Page

Well, we always start our episode with our guests favorite health tip. Can you share one with us?

Dr. Michael Karlfeldt

I actually would say that the favorite health tip would be a gratitude journal. And so to I, I think that it has such a tremendous, such an easy thing to do. And if you do it just right before going to bed, writing three things that you're grateful for, it, it really kinda sets your whole body up for all the amazing things that happen while you're sleeping. It's, and I would say that would be number one.

Ivelisse Page

I love that. I love that. I usually do it in the morning. I, I didn't think about doing that at night, but I think that is a good thing to do right before bed so that your brain is reflecting on that gratitude. So thank you. I love that tip.

Dr. Michael Karlfeldt

Because you're kind of in that middle stage where you're, transitioning into sleep. And so now you're programming the body without any kind of interferences. Any,'cause you're not in your daily activities. You're essentially, your whole body is not being programmed to do this while you're sleeping.

Why Cancer Comes Back

Ivelisse Page

That's great. That's great. Thank you. Well, I'm really excited about today's episode because it's a question that a lot of people always ask. The truth is, I've been hearing numbers as high as 75% of cancer returning, and so there are many hidden root causes that most treatments don't address. And so I'm so grateful that you're on this podcast to really help us to explain what's going on here and why cancer is recurring at such a high level. But before we do that I know you've spent decades in the naturopathic and integrative medicine world. Can you share how your early apprenticeship shaped your belief in treating the whole person and not just disease?

Dr. Michael Karlfeldt

Yes. That, so my mentor, he was the leading naturopathic doctor in Sweden. And so, the whole idea with naturopathic medicine is looking at the individual as a whole, that there's no, you can't isolate the kidney. It's gonna be working along with the liver, with the small intestines, with they're all working together. And so I think that is the biggest challenge in the medical professions that we have all these specialists and all they know is that specialty that they are dealing with. And there is not that communication in between and understanding how it all correlates. And that, that's a beauty with naturopathic medicine is that you, you look at the intelligence that exists within the body, recognizing that the body is the greatest doctor of all. And if we can then just support it with what it needs and remove the stressor that's interfering with that intelligence, we are then able to move that body into, to optimum health and wellbeing.'cause we are designed to heal and actually the, our bodies conspire towards our healing and our wellbeing.

Cancer Stem Cells Explained

Ivelisse Page

I love that. Well, from your clinical experience, why do you believe cancer recurrence rates remain so high even after, conventional treatments have been done?

Dr. Michael Karlfeldt

And I think it's actually what we just touched upon is that people get so tumor focused and they think that, working on cancer and addressing cancer is to shrink a tumor. And in reality is that tumor is in effect, it's a symptom of what's going on systemically. And if we don't address what's going on systemically what manifested the first time is gonna manifest the second time because the environment didn't change. If we don't identify and understand what are the factors or root causes of what, put the tumor there in the first place. Then we essentially haven't done anything positive. And when you then bring in then harsh treatments like chemo, radiation, surgery, that are then depleting the body. And in fact, also it tends to then activate somethings called cancer stem cells, which are the cells that will then lay dormant, not impacted. Chemo cannot kill it. Radiation cannot kill them. They actually then get activated by both radiation and chemo. So now we have a depleted immune system. We have more toxins in our system. Our terrain is worse, and we have then made the cancer stem cells angry. So yes, we shrunk the tumor, but now we are in a place where that makes us very vulnerable for a recurrence, and that's why that frequently happens.

Ivelisse Page

Yes. Yeah. And I also heard that it's things like mistletoe therapy and IV vitamin C that actually kills the circulating tumor cells and the circulating stem cells. Is that correct?

Dr. Michael Karlfeldt

And that's a beauty is that there's so many natural agents like that, like vitamin C, mistletoe that are really powerful tools that helps to upregulate the immune system to then be able to identify these cancer stem cells because they're laying their dormant, they're not, they're not dividing fast. So the chemo's not gonna impact it because, it looks for things that divide fast. And they are very, they're resilient. They are very good at understanding the the assault on the cancer cells, and then being able to adjust how it, how their behaviors are to then be able to spit out the chemo, become resilient to the chemo, how have all these defense mechanisms. So by bringing in tools that then help to support the immune system's intelligence. We are then able then to more efficiently identify these adherent cells, these cancer stem cells and mistletoe, is phenomenal at that. In fact, mistletoe I feel, should be the foundation of pretty much any kind of cancer therapy because it, it brings so much intelligence to the immune system, whether you're choosing to do traditional oncology route or not. Mistletoe should be part of that process. Because if we're depleting the immune system with chemo and we're done with chemo, lo and behold, if we have no immune system, then we're not gonna be fight able to fight off the remaining cancer cells. So if we support the immune system while going through some of these traditional oncology routes, we're gonna be so much better off and we're gonna have a defense mechanism and that's gonna be able to clear out the remaining, the remains, so to say, after the traditional oncology route.

Hidden Infections and Terrain

Ivelisse Page

Yeah, I agree. A thousand percent. A thousand percent. So chronic infections are also often overlooked in oncology. What types of infections do you commonly see linked to cancer recurrence? And how should patients explore this with their care team?

Dr. Michael Karlfeldt

And that's becoming more and more common. And I think it is just people are dealing with a lot of stress. They're exposed to a lot of chemicals heavy metals, nutritional deficient. Our food is not the same like what it used to be. So our immune system is suppressed. And obviously if you're diagnosed with cancer and that shows that your immune system is not where it needs to be. So we see there's a lot of correlation between different infectious agents and cancer. Commonly what I see, things like mold, fungus, parasites. I would say those are very high up on the list, but then we also have other infectious agents that are starting to kind of creep up there. And these are the different line bugs, like borrelia, bartonella, babesia. And then we have different viruses that are common, like the Epstein bar, cytomegalovirus, other type of herpes viruses, so we gotta look then at the terrain of where the cancers evolving in. And that terrain is what essentially drives the behavior of the tumor. And so if we identify and see, yes, I see a lot of kind of parasites in this system. An individual may be, they have lots of cats, lots of dogs, or, they have, on a farm where they've got cattle, you, so they are then exposed to parasites in that way. Doesn't mean that you have to have animals to have parasites. All of us do. I mean there, there's not an individual walking around that does not have parasites. So it is a good thing to do, a parasite cleanse once in a while no matter what. But to be able then identify then these pathogens and see what is it that's contributing to this cancer moving forward or existing. And then in addition to then supporting the immune system and controlling a lot of cancer drivers. And then to also bring in then a protocol to address some of these infectious agents. And what's that's gonna do is it's gonna lower the stress load of the body, lower the stress load on the immune system, so it can then be much more focused on working on the cancer, identifying cancer cells that are floating around, circulating tumor cells that are trying to set up shop elsewhere so that we can have the proper police force focusing on the, on what's important rather than being their focus being deviated focusing on things that it shouldn't. So that's a power of kind of decreasing the low, identifying what's in that tumor terrain, and then addressing that to relieve stress from the immune system so that it can do what it needs to do.

Ivelisse Page

Yes. And another factor I, that we see everywhere now are environmental toxins. And what in your opinion, are the most dangerous exposures patients should be aware of, and how can they begin reducing their toxic burden?

Dr. Michael Karlfeldt

And that's, I would say plastic is is huge. I mean, that, that is so, pervasive and everywhere. I mean, there's studies showing that I think they were saying that we eat like a plastic, credit card a week, and plastic. And we know plastic has a huge impact on your hormonal system, on your detox pathways. And very inflammatory. So it creates a lot of dysregulation throughout our system. In, in fact, I, some some mortuaries, they have a hard time burning the bodies, cremating the bodies, because they have so much plastic in them. They're, it's almost like they, they don't degrade at the way that they should. So that is a huge factor. And then we have, common ones like aluminum, mercury is still a big, is issue lead, cadmium, those are very common ones that are there. And they have a, in addition to creating inflammatory environment in the body, it, it also suppresses immune system. And a lot of, talking about pathogens fungus tend to hold onto a lot of heavy metals. Parasites tend to have heavy metals in its outer shield, and they do this as a mechanism to evade the immune system. And so cancer will essentially also hold onto a lot of this toxic debris, and also have that in their tumor microenvironment. So that it's very hard for the immune system to be effective because it's so impacted by this toxic, soup around the immune system and we're exposed to these heavy metals and chemicals all the time. So even people that are thinking that I'm not drinking out of plastic water bottles, which is a huge thing. Everyone out there, you should not drink outta a plastic water bottle. We think they're so cool and nice, at the grocery store, but they've been sitting in storage, they've been on a hot truck, they've been, so it's gonna be, the level of plastic in that water bottle is gonna be outrageous. So stop that please. And then we have, so even though we may be doing all the right things, we're seeing there's so much in the environment. We have cloud seeding that's going on. We have, we have all the vaccinations with all the aluminum and mercury there. We, we have in our a cleaning agents, we have I mean the it's so ubiquitous, so we almost need to always focusing in addition to cleaning out, dressing some of these infectious agents is to support our ability to clean out this toxic debris. That we're continually exposed to, even if you're living on the south or North Pole, it's still gonna be there.

Stress Trauma and Epigenetics

Ivelisse Page

Yes. Those are excellent points and for anyone who really wants to dive a little deeper into creating a non-toxic home or an environment, we did actually a whole podcast on that and non-toxic homes. She gave us really great tips, from using glass storage containers to your water filtration to things that you're putting on your body, and they're just really easy, practical things that can start to lessen that load that you're talking about in gentle ways. And so I'm really grateful that you brought that up because that is a huge thing. I'm trying to figure out how do I overcome the cloud seeding done here in Colorado with my garden and everything else. But we do what we can as best we can so that we reduce that load as you mentioned. Something I feel that isn't very talked often about is stress and unresolved trauma. And I think in conventional care it, it's not really talked about outside of like, say your office. So how do these factors biologically influence cancer recurrence?

Dr. Michael Karlfeldt

I mean that, that's such a huge factor. And I would say and this was one of the reasons, I said that gratitude journal is one of my favorite little hacks is because trauma and stressor, it really impact our immune system. It creates genetic change or epigenetic changes that drives a cell towards more of a survival state and cancer in my mind is a cell that is shifting into survival mode. So if we live in that survival, it's more of a sympathetic state, we're dealing with stressors continually, our immune system is then suppressed from that, so we're not gonna be able to, because we're continually then, looking at our environment and where there's something attacking us there. So our immune system's gonna focus on that. And then over time it's just gonna get fatigued, because you cannot focus on these stressors for a long period of time, and then still be very alert on what's going on inside. And also, we know that when you're in that stress state, you don't, you're not able to detoxify. So then you're building up all these toxins in your system and then fueling that tumor microenvironment, making it more toxic, making it more, metabolic, making the cancer more metabolically active and aggressive. And so it, it becomes really important to make sure that we continually support our nervous system, so we get out of that survival state. And we also know we can't regenerate. When we are in that stress state, we are very poor at repairing the body because, when we're running away from the tiger, we're not we're not gonna sit down and try to lick our wounds, at that time we're wanna just survive. And so if we're in that survival state, we're not detoxifying, we're not fighting infections, and we're not healing, and we're also not absorbing nutrients, so all of those systems get shut down. So be able to then monitor your nervous system and regulate it and kind of free up stressors becomes really important. And that's just then looking at your today's picture. But then you have traumas and belief systems, from childhood that you may be carrying, that you have stored in the subconscious, even though it may have happened a long time ago, it's still playing in the back of your mind, and it's still needed to be addressed because it, it's kinda like having all these apps, on your cell phone or on your laptop that keeps on running, draining battery, draining energy, slowing down function. And it's the same thing in our body when these apps or these belief system or traumas keep running in the background. We are depleting resources that we need in order to be able to again, heal and fight off infections. And to me, cancer is there's this saying that cancer is a wound that never heals. And so if we don't have the resources we need in order to be able to heal tissue. It's gonna be continually inflamed, and then it's continually not gonna be able to get the resources that need to be strong and healthy, and then cancer can move into that tissue. And then we have then generational trauma, which is a big thing as well that we don't think of. That's a gift that the prior generation gives to the next generation. Is, what do you need in order to be able to survive what I survived? So we have maybe a mother, father, grandfather, grandmother, or it can be several generations back that went through a very traumatic event and they wanna make sure that the next generations, they're equipped to be able to deal with that very traumatic event. The issue is that, a current generation may never face that event and it's not really something that's current anymore, but that created then epigenetic changes, within within the cells of that next generation so that they are then ready for that trauma, ready for that event. So they've done studies showing that, for instance, third generation down from Auschwitz survivors from concentration camp survivors, they experienced the exact same feeling, the anxiety, the panic attacks, that they, somebody that was in a concentration camp would experience even though their life were perfect, family life, they had job, no financial concerns, nothing in their life pointed to anything that would give them a reason to have the anxiety and the panic attack. Other than that they were three generations down from from, somebody in at a concentration camp. So yeah, healing trauma is so huge in regards to cancer.

Healing Trauma Tools

Ivelisse Page

That is just so fascinating to me and I completely agree. And, it's something that you all do really well at the Karlfeldt Center, and I think that there are some physicians that even ask that in their intake. I still remember 15 years ago, Dr. Hindeberger asking me, did your mother experience any form of trauma while she was pregnant with you? And I was like, wow, that's a question. Right. And once I start to think about it, she did. And so it's really something that we don't, that's not even talked about. And so once you discover that there was, and like this, the Auschwitz generations that came after, how does one help to resolve those traumas in a way that's healthy, that doesn't make overwhelm the body because of those emotions are so strong

Dr. Michael Karlfeldt

And there are different techniques out there that are available. I mean, EMDR is one. You have recall healing? We do something's called APN, Applied Psycho Neurobiology. So there, there are a number of different techniques out there that are really beneficial. The key, I believe, is to be able to, once you identify and understand, it's kinda like once you shine light on something, it resolves. And so frequently, it may not have to be that, that much more than just identifying and understanding. And then you can, by seeing it and understanding the event, you can just do EFT tapping or you can there, there are plenty of other techniques as the key is to, to when you're facing the stressor, be it subconscious or when you kind of bring it to your consciousness to bring the body in a relaxed state to kinda reset the nervous system in relationship to that stressor. So you're essentially reprogramming yourself. And that can be done in many different ways. But I believe that identifying something that I love as well is family constellation. I think that is a really powerful technique in regards to then correcting the genealogical family structure and making sure that energy flows through the generations to the individual and that there are not interferences, that there weren't a, a sudden a sudden death or a suicide, or some severe trauma or injury to an individual to kind of, identify what that is and then to heal that link within that generational line.

Ivelisse Page

That's so beautiful. I've never heard that. That's incredible.

Believe Big

We appreciate you listening to the Believe Big Podcast, where we help you discover hope, healing, and the latest breakthroughs in cancer care. Later this year, we will be bringing that mission to life through two powerful upcoming events. You can join us for the Harvesting Hope Dinner in Colorado on September 25th from 5:00 to 9:00 PM. This is an inspiring evening of community, stories of impact, and a chance to bring hope directly to patients in need. Then you won't wanna miss the Integrative Cancer Symposium on October 17th at the Sheraton in Towson, Maryland, or attend virtually. This one-day event gathers leading experts in integrative oncology to share the latest scientific advancements, innovative therapies, and real-world strategies you can use today. Whether you're a patient, caregiver, or practitioner, this is where hope meets action. Learn more and reserve your spot at believebig.org/symposium.

Ivelisse Page

Well, for someone who has, say, completed their treatment. They're told you're cancer free. Right. What root causes should they still investigate to make sure to reduce that risk of recurrence? What would you say? Someone said you're cancer free. What would their next, segment of protocol in your eyes, be for them?

Dr. Michael Karlfeldt

And to me is obviously when if you're done harsh treatments you need to detoxify from those harsh treatments and you need to support the immune system that's been beaten down by those harsh treatments. So, to me that is key number one. I mean, I have patients come in here, they have some platin drug where there's carboplatin or cisplatin or oxaliplatin and so that, that's a heavy metal. And that heavy metal is going trigger inflammation and suppress immune system and it's gonna create hormonal dysregulation to then drive the body towards cancer. So we want to get that out of the system. We wanna clean that out. And then we wanna support the body in itself in addition to the immune system. We want to heal tissue. We wanna make sure it has the ability to regenerate and heal. And then also then we want to do an assessment. There are great functional labs that we run and that's available. Many other providers run'em as well. To then assess, to see what is the the pathogenic load that we're dealing with. Are we having mold issues? Do I have mold in my home? Are I dealing with, what's going on with the gut? We know that the about 70 to 80% of your immune system, is along your gut lining and a lot of the inflammatory signaling is coming from the gut. So, how's my gut biome doing? How do I heal that? And then we look at what is my chemical and heavy metal load. We want to then look at glyphosates, what, glyphosates, we have correlated to a lot of cancers as well. So we wanna look at all these factors. And then in addition to that runs, like circulating tumor cell labs. It's a really good, an easy way to kind of keep an eye on things, wanna run some inflammatory labs and like C-reactive protein sed rate. LDH, ferritin, fibrinogen keep an eye on those and make sure that they stay within line. We wanna look at the ratios, between the different white blood cells, like the neutrophil, the lymphocyte, lymphocyte to monocyte, how are they doing? Because there are certain ratios that indicates health, and there's certain ratios that says that we are not where we need to be at this moment. So, to me, assessing all of that and then repairing from all the injury that that these therapies created is such a key because when you are no evidence of disease, that's when you really gotta step in and work hard and roll up your sleeves.

Lifestyle Diet and Spirituality

Ivelisse Page

Yes. I completely agree. And on the side of diet and lifestyle changes, you consistently recommend some to help patients create an environment where cancer is less likely returned. What are some of those practical changes that you share?

Dr. Michael Karlfeldt

Well, so, to create an environment, you gotta assess what's around you, what's on you, and what's in you. Yeah that, that's essentially so, around you that also includes, your relationships your friends, family. Do you have, we talked about fiscal parasites, but you also have then energetic parasites, so, there may be individuals around you that continually sucks out your energy. You need to really guard your energy and make sure that it's being utilized for what it needs to be utilized. So if there are people around that around you that are like that, then you want to either if they can't change, if they can't become the individual that really benefits you in your life, then maybe expose yourself less or none to those individuals, and then bring in people that really you feel good and you feel that they, where you have purpose and where you have meaning and where you have connection. Those things are so important in a person's life. And I also to that spiritual connection I think is so important. Whether, you're a Christian or Buddhist or what, whatever religion or philosophy that an individual has to find that anchor that spiritual strong anchor that then, makes them feel that I'm connected and I just don't kind of blow around here on earth, for no reason. There, there's a connection that I have. I think that is, is so important. And then obviously eating, we wanna minimize toxins in our food, and we want to eat low in, low glycemic, non-inflammatory, nutrient dense type of food. And there's several different diets out there or eating patterns. And I'm not gonna say that one is better than the other than following these kind of general guidelines. Because it depends on where an individual is at in their journey, whether they, and also what type of cancer they're battling. It will then determine, what kind of food that may be best for them. So, yeah. Diet I know is such a huge factor. When you're dealing with cancer and there's so much confusion, whether you should do plant-based ketogenic Mediterranean. And I say yes to all of those depending on where you're at.

Ivelisse Page

Yeah those are great tips. And I know especially on the spiritual side, that was one of the big anchors in my life is knowing that, I had to realize that, my circumstances may not change, but I knew who held my life in their hands, and so the Lord just really walked me through, you know that valley of the shadow of death, as it says in scripture, and in those moments of fear, he replaced it with peace. And I know there's been so many studies that have been done on the effects of when you're in a stress state and when you're in a peace state, your body can repair. And those prayers and that reliance and open hands of surrender really do allow your body to heal and help you to have a environment where cancer won't thrive. So I really love that, that you shared that too.

Dr. Michael Karlfeldt

And it was fascinating. I was at church, this was number of years ago. And the pastor was re recounting a story of an individual that was not Christian, did not believe, but he was told that if he just recounted everyday, by his stripes I'm healed. Yeah. Just did that each time. That he would heal and it, he, and I believe he had like stage four pancreatic cancer was something really severe. And so he just kept saying that even though he was not a Christian, by just that, that, that belief in connecting with that energy in some form he actually got completely healed just by doing that.

Ivelisse Page

That's crazy. That's incredible. Yeah. Nothing's impossible with God. Nothing.

Dr. Michael Karlfeldt

Nothing.

Ivelisse Page

And so in closing, looking ahead, what changes do you believe are most needed in the medical system to better address the root causes of cancer rather than just the tumor?

Dr. Michael Karlfeldt

A lot. I I think that the next step should be, yeah.'cause I mean, we can't just revamp, the whole system and I not gonna say that chemo, radiation, surgery are not needed. They. They are, there are tools that sometimes are really much needed. I think the, what I would like to see is the integration that it's more commonly talked about, looked at and and I would say I have a lot of oncologists here locally that are, they, and some of them even refer to me, so it, I'm seeing a little bit winds of change in that area and I'm really pleased, but I feel that we should move in that direction even more. And because I feel that both systems have great value, and if we can create a dialogue between the two. That we're able then to really benefit the patient and their outcome. And they also, they I feel that they were able then to relax into their treatment more instead of feeling that they have to be this mediator between their oncologist and their, functional medicine doctor, naturopathic doctor. And also not having to deal with the assault that they frequently get when they go to the oncologist saying that, you're crazy doing this, or, don't do any high dose vitamin C or mistletoe, while we're doing these therapies'cause it can, it makes'em work less. And even though they have no research to substantiate what they're saying. I think if we can move in that direction then I think that'd be huge step.

Mistletoe Trials and Support

Ivelisse Page

Yeah, I completely agree. That's one of the things that we're always trying to do at Believe Big too, is looking ahead to the future. And I'm really excited that, this year we will be launching the phase two mistletoe clinical trial with Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine. And I think that's one step to connecting these two worlds where the best of both can be combined to help the benefit the patient. And not only their quality of life, but also their quantity of life too. But,

Dr. Michael Karlfeldt

And I love that. I heard about that when we spoke last. I think I was so thrilled a bit and I think for all the listeners out there recognize that these trials, they cost money. They when you have a drug trial, a chemo drug, it's a pharmaceutical company that is in, spending money to drive that trial. But to test something like a mistletoe there, there's no big comp pharmaceutical company that's gonna spend money on that. So you depend then on donations. And so I, I feel that if individuals are able then to kind of give money to these type of solid research studies to really bring natural substances up, in, in front of doctors I think that's huge.

Ivelisse Page

Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Karlfeldt. It's been an amazing conversation. Grateful for all that you do for the patients that we work with, and so thank you for joining us today.

Dr. Michael Karlfeldt

Thank you so much Ivelisse, it's been a pleasure.

Ivelisse Page

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