This months guest is KnowBe4's SVP Content Strategy & Evangelist for Africa and founder of Popcorn training, Anna Collard.
In this episode, Anna shares what it means to be creative and how creativity can benefit cyber security - especially when it comes to delivering content.
Being a female CEO and founder of a company can also be challenging, and Anna sheds some light on what that journey was like for her too. Including what biases exist, and how she even fell for her own biases.
This months guest is KnowBe4's SVP Content Strategy & Evangelist for Africa and founder of Popcorn training, Anna Collard.
In this episode, Anna shares what it means to be creative and how creativity can benefit cyber security - especially when it comes to delivering content.
Being a female CEO and founder of a company can also be challenging, and Anna sheds some light on what that journey was like for her too. Including what biases exist, and how she even fell for her own biases.
First off everybody is creative, even the people, I think they are not. Solving a problem, , creativity some of the, most hardcore techies that I met are the most creative people the world. If you look at the way they code stuff or solve issues, so they are actually very creative it's maybe to acknowledge that everyone has this ability to just combining your left. and right side of the brain. And, From a human point of view, something that helps a lot is to apply more empathy, like really think about the audience and have someone that does not necessarily the right background or the understanding that you would have , in the technical field.
Erich:Hello and welcome to Security Masterminds. The podcast that brings you the very best in all things, cyber security, taking an in-depth look at the most pressing issues And trends across the industry. Eric Krohn.
Jelle:And I'm Jelle Wirenga and we are your hosts today.
Erich:Today, we're speaking with Anna Collard founder of popcorn training And the SVP for content strategy and an evangelist for KnowBe4 Africa and she knows more about security training content than I can ever to know.
Jelle:She combines her entrepreneurship very well with her love, for human beings and their love for training as an insecurity and making us more aware.
Erich:Yeah. And she has some great stories too. I was lucky enough to be able to ask Anna some questions about herself and why the way content is presented is so important for learners and some questions about how this all got started for her. the first thing I asked her was what drove you to getting into content creation. This is what she had to say.
Anna Collard:When I was a kid, I I used to like drawing cartoons as a child. originally I wanted to study arts and my dad was no, there's money in it Do something proper. And then I said, ah, okay, I'll do languages. He said no there's no money that's I ended up doing international economics. And . I worked for Siemens as a, they call it a vet student in Germany. So you worked there for 20 hours. And they offered me to write my thesis for, I just was a, it was like a BA degree. But my sort of final paper, I was able to write and security. Back then, and that's how I got into it. And then I ended up working in South Africa for network integrator and an ISP and always felt a little bit. Cause I didn't have a technical background. I had a business background. So I tried to overcompensate by doing more certifications and learning on the weekends to try and keep up with my male colleagues. They are all the engineering crowd. It's it. And then what I was a honeymoon, I drew just for the fun of it. Really. I drew like a little cartoon story on about these characters that I came up with called Fraudy Skimbag and Robbin Yodata that worked for money laundering and just for the heck of it. And I showed that to my colleagues or the people that I worked for, which was a big insurance company back at, as like deployed. Architect onsite and I showed it to them and they were like, this is great. You should totally do this. And yeah. And that's how I really started is that I had this idea. I combined what I enjoyed, with the security knowledge that I collected over the years. And then I was lucky enough to have the right context to show them the stuff. And they were excitable enough that they said I should go for it. And they also, they really. Guided me in terms of the product design. I, they tell me, Anna, you need to have a learning management system. And by the way, this was like 2011. So it had to be developed on site and in.net. And, there's big enterprise insurance, corporates environments. I, to find out that net developer and get that off the ground. And then obviously eventually we got it into the cloud, but it was all driven by an idea that a customer kindly. Oh, Mitchell, by the way, Yella knows them talked to and then gave me the opportunity to create a product.
Erich:Wow. She was told that there's no money in art and so she went different directions, ended up going into economics. But what I think is really cool is combined what she really enjoyed her real passion and her already natural security mindset to create a really good product and company. Popcorn really stands out from a lot of the others and it seems to me like finding one's passion, if it's not in a traditional area can really make a difference.
Jelle:I love hearing about these types of stories. This story really describes not only how she started, but also she is or who she is as a person she's passionate about everything she does really cares to the bone of about getting quality across. And creating content and everything like that, but it's also very down to earth.
Erich:While big advancements are being made to fix this issue cybersecurity has predominantly been male driven and she mentioned that, she broke the mold by starting popcorn training, but not only was she a female in cybersecurity, she was doing it in South Africa. I asked her , what was it like being a female CEO in a cybersecurity company?
Anna Collard:Obviously the people that I dealt with on the customer side were predominantly male because I was with a security offices and that network that I built up, but the people I worked with in my team, We're mostly women. And that shows you the whole bias when you start hiring, you know, like you hire your friends. And I hired all women in my age that were moms. At some point we literally we're all the same age who will, , females, , and mothers. And that's when I became conscious of my own biases said, oh, geez, we need to hire some guys in here because it's not good to be just one dimensional. But I think that's what happens naturally, right? As people hire who they most relate to. And that's why it's good to have more, , awareness around being more conscious about that in hiring diversity.
Jelle:So, I really love it that she understands that diversity in the workplace brings in new ideas and perspectives. A keeps you from getting a ton officiant and as an entrepreneur, it just keeps you on your toes.
Erich:I've talked to so many people in the cybersecurity community in the different conferences and stuff I go to and I've met so many that came from different places. Like I, know one person on gal that came from theater. I know another gal that came from the insurance industry and their perspectives though, are incredibly welcome, so often we get like a tunnel. With how we look at things and having these outside perspectives is amazing. And it's such a powerful thing in what we do. I love to see this. I did find it ironic that she had surrounded herself with women and mothers and realized that she had her own bias with that. And the fact that she's able to admit that that's pretty, pretty fascinating there. And it tells you a lot about Anna as well that she can turn around and go, oh, wait a minute. So the other thing about Anna now, you mentioned that she's down to earth. She's just a great person. And. She's also incredibly intelligent as we measure it. She's very data focused and I love this. It's something that you realize very quickly in any amount of time that you've been around her. So I know she loves surveys, she loves other research. And then it makes sense that, these things are a tool for her given as much as she likes it. I asked her what role does, research or surveys play for you in creating content and where do you see organizations fail when providing training to their employees?
Anna Collard:Instead of just creating something without thinking, I would always first speak to my customers and then find out, , what projects are you busy with this year? What is the theme? I mean, we even had workshops with different, , customers that were competitors, but the security people, obviously had the same problems, We sat together and we said, okay, how do we create content around the BYOD, or mobility. And then you create a script or the draft and then take it back to them and say, does it cover everything that you want to have covered? Because it allowed me to see, , this doesn't work or that works well., users don't really respond to this, but they, , surprisingly find, , gamification quite good. So it really allowed us to create the product while having the feedback right there and then. That's always, what I tell other people that try and create products is to not ever create it before you get that real customer feedback. If you think about it, my drawings were like, that was your MVP. You know, it was just a drawing and, the idea changed completely, based on input I got from the customer. And I think it's very risky. If you think that you have all the answers and just barge ahead and create your product without consulting., In terms of the research, that's true. I love it., that's why , I'm very happy in my current role where we can actually dig into the themes and trends and particularly in Africa, we don't have enough data, so I think it's a great opportunity to play that role and uncover new truth or findings. And then that allows us again to write stories, even if it's not maybe in say awareness. It's content on policy or on strategy.
Erich:I love that she recognizes the importance of creating content that the customer needs, not just what we think the customer needs, because far too often, I see organizations that make things and they really aren't doing it because there's a need for this thing. It's because they think that somebody should need this thing. And I can see how that mentality, that mindset contributed to the success of popcorn training.
Jelle:Listening to your customer first and really understanding your customer and creating content based on that. And that's powerful. She also talks about storytelling. As Security advocates ourselves, we'd like we know how important it is and how powerful stories are in capturing the interest of the audience. especially if you combine storytelling with research, you can actually figure out what your audience wants, translate that into a story and build content out of that. It's really cool
Erich:yeah. And that's a great point. Cause you, you cross that line between just making someone aware of something, to which they don't really care and actually getting them engaged in it to where now they're a part of that story. They have something involved in that and that's a huge difference. When it comes to teaching people, things, having them aware versus actually caring about things.
Jelle:connecting with the audience, engaging your audience. You only get one chance, so make sure you do it right. And stories are definitely a really cool tool to do that.
Erich:Anna does a lot of work outside of traditional businesses, right stuff in the public sector. I've seen her do a lot of different work with government stuff and just trying to help out the public as a matter of fact, not just organizations or businesses. So I wanted to know how different it is, designing content for organizations versus stuff for the general public.
Anna Collard:I think the challenge we have with consumers is that at least in a corporate environment, you have the compliance card, you have, , the reminders and don't have any of that with the consumers, it has to be 100% voluntarily., And that means that your engagement and the thought that goes into it, which it should also be the same with, with your internal users., you want them to be engaged and you want them to personally find the content relevant and interesting., within the consumer space, you don't have the luxury of just forcing them to do it so it has to be even more thought through. We have to first find some way to motivate people by either making the content engaging, , making it visually appealing or beautiful, , making it personally relevant in some way, maybe talking to parents and what their concerns are and then combining that with making it easy, it's, uh, providing them with tools , or references. You know, here's the latest security tool, password manager, whatever that may be, and then prompting them, so don't have a website somewhere that has a whole lot of awareness content because your consumers won't go there. Like you have to take it to them if, and when they need it, be that when they sign up for something or when they open up a new phone, you should give them some content. When they changed their password, that's where we can through prompts and motivation and all of these techniques. That's when we can hopefully achieve a bit of behavior change, but to just put content on a website and hope that the consumers will go there and consume it, unfortunately that doesn't happen
Jelle:talking about these things, you really have to admit that security awareness training is it's an art, it's a profession. that easy. You really need to think about how you want to do it. You need to really take into account human nature in itself. We really are focused on doing the maximum amount of work with the least amount of energy things like that as a CSO or it admin or HR professional that is focusing on training people and providing them with the skills and changing their behavior and making sure that they're more secure in general. It's something you really have to pay attention to. And a lot of organizations, therefore, something they get external expertise in and MSPs that worked that way, it partners that focus on really understand how training works. And I really love the fact that Anna acknowledges this. People are not as easy to train, so we need to make sure that we do it in the right way to maximize everything, to maximize result.
, Erich:those are great points. And unfortunately we've seen people that, that try to train people and teach people. They have lousy content and they don't really give much effort. And then they turn around and go, oh, you know what? Training people doesn't work. And that drives me crazy. I know I've seen that. I'm sure you see it over there in Europe as well.
Jelle:It happens everywhere. People just, they dump information, knowledge on someone and expect them, but, okay, I'm done here. Now. You go and live your life. Be more secure because I presented you with a bunch of information. It doesn't work that way. You need to make sure that people can actually use that information, translated into skills and actually use it in their daily lives, at work or at home. And that's the whole trick. It's not about just dumping information. It's about actually changing their behavior.
. Erich:And speaking of this sort of thing, one of the, one of the things I've dealt with is translation. And I've always felt like just translating the words doesn't have the same impact as making something purpose-built for the region. And I think that's a problem where some global organizations, they take the same thing and then they go, okay, we're going to, we're going to dub this in that language, or we're going to put over, some some captions . And that's going to be good, but it's not, it doesn't engage them like you mentioned. So I asked Anna how she felt about, when you're considering content, how important is it to localize the content, as opposed to just translating the word.
, Anna Collard:it obviously depends on the type of content. If it's just an infographic about your latest work from home policy, obviously just translating it is fine, but if it is anything that might be story-based or that has humor built in, then it's very important to consider the sensitivities of the various cultures and, rather go too conservative you have to be more careful. We find what is quite important is even if you have English speaking audience, in certain areas, they may just not react that well to particularly English accents. In certain areas they don't like the British accent. They prefer the American so it's also important. In Africa, they would like to hear more sort of an African accent, so you have to be really aware of these little nuances and then choose your voiceover artists and, your actors accordingly.
Erich:so Jelle, that really goes along with what I've seen as well. But you you do a lot of work across varied regions, from the middle east and other European areas.
Jelle:Yeah, I definitely do. And Africa, especially every case it's a large continent with over 54 countries. Over 3000 different cultures and ethnic groups within that one continent. It's really important to engage your audience way that's relevant to them. And not only relevant the maturity level they have in security and the knowledge you already have, also relevant to emotions. And especially if you look at localization from a standpoint of people feel about what they're seeing and feel about what the hearing. Localization is highly underrated. It's usually made synonymous to translations. Look, I translated his document. You can read it. We're done. That's not what you want. Localization is all about capturing that, that of what people in a region think feel what their upbringing is, their experiences the way that they about certain topics. Therefore it localization is it's key, but it's also difficult to do. the one thing within any training that you have to really focus on, put a lot of effort and energy in, because if you do that right, you've won half the battle.
, Erich:I love that. It makes sense to those people that are in those different regions and you're right. It's not as powerful just to change the words because believe it or not you can get that feeling of, I belong to this, they understand me and they get me as opposed to just changing the words on the screen.
Jelle:The one thing I use localized content for is the fact that when you have the attention of an audience, when you finally get that attention of an audience, which takes a lot of work already, you want to do it right the first time. So make it count. And localization really helps with.
Erich:Something we see in this field is that manufacturing is targeted heavily by ransomware and even other cyber attacks, but a lot of the employees may not use computers in their day-to-day lives. I've worked in a manufacturing organization where we had a lot of people on the. They didn't really check email. They didn't use a computer very much. And so I asked Anna, how important is it? And do we need to train people who work on factory floors, even if they don't have internet access,
Anna Collard:I think it definitely makes sense to include them. Consider a different approach first of all if they don't have internet access, how can they even get access to you and your learning materials? So you have to be creative about, can you send something to their mobile phones? Does it have to be maybe just like an in-person thing as a posters in the factory floor and the bathrooms and obviously bathroom, the perfect. The only place where people have the time to look., the reason why I say I would definitely include them is you want them to be part of the overall security culture and make them aware of what can go wrong., and then also give them some form of, accountability for the things that they have control over. Like for example, don't plug USB sticks. in if you happen to find something lying around and explain to them why that is the case. I think we also have a responsibility as an employer to teach people some general incident safety, because , they might not have Internet's access at work, but they definitely have it at home. We'll have to teach them some basic cyber hygiene, from an HR point of view we should do that anyway. If they take that on it, the benefit is that hopefully apply that thinking in this increased vigilance at work as well. I think that there, particularly from a social engineering point of view, remember when we did some content for the retail industry on PCI. that the cashiers, for example, that also don't have internet access. However, we had to teach them, these con artists that come and put skimmer devices on the POS devices, you need to be aware of how do that operate, like they usually work in two, and they use typical social engineering tactics, like being friendly and trying to distract you while the other one does the thing and there's different scenarios depending on which industry you're work in., actually have nothing to do with IT per se, but they don't have a social engineering or a human packing element to it. And yeah, I think that's it regardless, even if you work in a factory where nobody ever gets to so important to make people aware of it..
Erich:So the part about how you deliver the training is a key thing. If they don't have computers, how do you get it to them? But it's also important to understand, yes, there are risks, even if you don't use computers in the office every day, that the example of USB keys being dropped in keyboards, that stuff really happens and so it does make sense that we need to get some of this training to them as well.
Jelle:This shows up by being creative, everyone, he can have the opportunity to be trained. doesn't always have to be done in a traditional way of sticking in a classroom. I had a global retail customer where every morning the store employees were presented with some free minute micro training, which was presented to improve their multi costing system. The screens that were already present in the store usually used by marketing to show ads, but they used it for more short, Lil intermittent training, really worked well because it allowed them to pick up security skills in a very accessible. Low effort way basically. Another example is I had a customer that created a security comic book, , and this was a customer where their employees would have to travel for a couple of hours to their actually drilling site. It gave them a chance in very simple way to spread the message, to get security awareness training out there in a way that was easy digest for people.
Erich:Speaking of different content.. Some places are much more heavily mobile than others. This is one that I know Africa definitely has a lot more mobile stuff going on. So asked , is there a difference in how you design content for an area that is heavily mobile dependent..
Anna Collard:Yeah, we've actually just recently launched a sort of mobile friendly content, it's all about not using heavy sort of bandwidth consuming content, so it doesn't have videos. more sort of picture based. You still have that dynamic engagement kind of feel. It's just not as heavy as your typical, in the office kind of consumer that has a desktop. it also obviously needs to be bolts taking into account that you're looking at a smaller screens. You know, there are quite a few things that you need to think about., We at some point we actually looked at, we credit like prototypes to roll out content by WhatsApp with the, again, not your typical non connected office or sort of field workers could then receive both the content as well as participate actively and to the quizzes and, engagement via are the built in chat applications, and we see that actually being used a lot more now by corporates will have a Africa where they use, , what feed, WhatsApp or telegram as part of their user engagement and even consumer engagement models.
Erich:I love the idea of designing for things like WhatsApp and again, this can be a very regional thing because that's where a lot of the audience is and it also makes sense to me that with the smaller screen and potential bandwidth restraints the traditional training that's designed for a computer is probably going to be less effective. We really don't need 4k and eight K content on a mobile device.
Jelle:Looking at like WhatsApp or Facebook messenger, or what have you, a platform for interaction. And again, storytelling is really powerful. So if you can actually get the viewer become part of that story, it's next level, it's even more powerful. it really shows that Anna is thinking about how to utilize technology adoption as a tool to deliver content this is really important to engage audiences and looking at new generations, young people nowadays, they live their phone, practically their phone is their life. They don't have a laptop. don't have a desktop computer. It may be to do in the workplace, but definitely they don't do it at home. They don't have one at home. I see that development of content specifically targeting this adoption of technology. It's just another sign of the times and it's great that she accepts this and simply adapts to it.
Erich:So being in South Africa where there still areas that are growing and becoming more technical yet, there are also some really high tech and FinTech groups already in place. I asked her, how is Africa tackling cyber security?
Anna Collard:At tech point of view, it's the same all over the world. You know, we faced with, extortion, crime, ransomware gangs, usual BEC scams. However, I think we have a couple of unique challenges that make it more difficult, and, you've already alluded to it that we have this vast mobile, adoption and there's still a massive opportunity for growth, which means that we have a lot of investor interests into Fintech, mobile technology, , every startup and financial institution is trying to get a piece of that cake. You know, like you have our average applicant is 19 years old. So there's a lot of youth,, that wants to be connected. That is on social. And a lot of them are not connected yet. So there's massive growth opportunity, which obviously the corporations are wanting. Which is great because it attracts investors and at the same time, also a risk because the users are coming online are often first time users. They have never been exposed to the internet before., they are not necessarily aware of the risks related to when they use their mobile devices for payments and banking, financial. transactions.. That it could mean when they identity stolen or they fall for social engineering, phishing attack, which is quite big here, that they can actually lose money. So awareness needs to happen from both governments and telcos, as well as the financial services institutions to do that consumer awareness. The other issue that we have in Africa is, , we just don't have the resources and the capacity is like our government. There's 54 different countries in Africa but, not enough have legislation in place that even deals with cyber crime or cyber in general. There are big differences, you know, there are certain countries like Maurtius, which is advanced and then you have South Africa that's trying to be, they have a regulation but can't enforce it because we don't have the capacity. And then you have other areas like Kenya again, which are actually quite good. It's very difficult to talk about Africa as one story, because it's all these First world and third world and everything in between, lots of opportunity, but a lot of challenges, , as well. And I think that are the biggest issue that I see is the cyber extortionists facing more harsh responses by the U S and in Europe. That they, shift their attention more towards Africa where there's also good sector and industries that are highly cyber dependent, but then there's not going to be much in terms of retribution. That's something that'd we'd all in the security industry are quite worried about.
Erich:So that was interesting. The thought of first world and third world, and such a lack of constraints and the fact that there's 54 different countries in Africa that's a huge challenge to have to deal with there.
Jelle:Yeah. And just to that, the complexity within the countries itself, if you look at South Africa, like by law, there's 11 official languages within that one. That's a lot to take into account a security professional, and it's Africa as a whole, it accounts to over 60% of the world's population. There's a lot of people there on the consumer level need education, but also in businesses need education. It's a lot to deal with if you're a CSO or if you're a manager.
Erich:I'm not really an artistic or creative type of person. I wanted to know, like when it comes to coming up with ideas to get people involved, So I asked her what inspires her creativity and how can people that are not naturally creative, think more that way.
Anna Collard:I think first off everybody is creative, but even the people, I think they are not. Doing solving a problem, his career, creativity some of the most hardcore techies that I met are the most creative people the world. If you look at the way they code stuff or solve issues, so they are actually very creative and it's maybe to acknowledge that everyone has this ability to just combining your left. and right side of the brain. And I think from a human point of view, something that helps a lot is to apply more empathy, like really think about the audience and have someone that does not have the right necessarily the right background or the understanding that you would have , in the technical field. So you really have to think of it. Okay. If I had to explain this to someone at home, how would I do that? And I often use friends or even my husband, who's in the wine industry and he's so not technical. So I use those kinds of people as like a Guinea pig to see did you get this or how would you understand that? I think empathy is a big thing. creativity, I, I was, I almost laugh because I actually used to be. It's like a side project. I gave art classes to old ladies in an old age home before I had kids. there wasn't, I had more time, but are a lot of techniques that you can use to show people we are all creative. And it's only about looking at things differently about telling your left side of the brain, which is your logical thinking, electrical thinking to switch off and chill a little bit, and then look at things properly. Cause what happened? When people say they can't draw, for example that always draw the stick them because it's because they don't actually look at what they supposed to draw. They just apply a filter that they again are efficient, lazy brain because it doesn't like thinking or processing a lot. It just applies a human is like a round thing with a stick in it. When you look at any of the real artists That's how we create these symbols to make life easier. For example, when he had a student, he would put a piece of brick in front of the student for a whole day and say just look at it, just look at it. And that's really what creativity I think is as well as just to look at things properly and with applying empathy. and, I think everybody has the ability with you apply some empathy and then work with the marketing people that are good with the words and the communications when you look at something the wrong way around if that's like a very typical technique that our teachers use is. You give someone a tree, for example, but it's the wrong way round. So your brain hasn't quite grasp it yet that this is a tree. So then you really look at the lines instead of drawing the tree symbol and then you actually end up looking at it properly and you draw what you see rather than what your brain tells you a tree should look like.
Erich:That was an interesting idea that the wrong way around thing I'll tell you. When I was a kid, we had an art teacher actually make us do some drawings upside down and it just it devolved me into tears. It was so hard For me, to do and she's right. Your brain, just trying to grasp that now. I love this empathy and really looking at the thing, whatever it is. can make The difference in the creativity. So we don't just take that brain shortcut. So I like that tip.
Jelle:The message here is spent time at things, really look at it, think about it and be creative by thinking outside of the box.
Erich:Okay.
Jelle:Don't always assume things are the way they are. Look at them from another perspective in real life. It's true. You can do this when drawing something, we can do. Creative actually in, in our technology led IT driven world most of us in it come from an it background, look at things as zeros and ones, very binary approach. We could do with a lot more creativity because it will lead to empathy. That's a good thing because in the end, our subject is humans.
Erich:Yeah. One of the things that. I've really learned in this job is that we deal with in cybersecurity a human problem. Now we fight technology that is being used by humans, but all of these attacks, are people behind these attacks. And if we can better understand what it is thereafter and why can better secure ourselves far too often, we really focus on the technology being used, but we're not thinking about the fact that there's a person behind it doing this. therefore dealing with the root of the problem. Doesn't always come to mind now. We're always in a fast pace. We're always moving quick. But I think, what she was saying about looking at things differently and as you alluded to taking some time, maybe a deep breath and really looking at the issue and thinking about, okay, so other than just the technology, what else is going on here could open our eyes to being able to deal with these threats a whole lot better. Obviously technology is advancing in all the areas. But I wanted to hear what are the next innovations in content creation.
Anna Collard:Definitely the whole virtual reality. If you think about that in terms of the potentiality, in some of the schools, they already have it. Where you can walk around on the moon or you can particularly for kids that are more visual, that like to touch things. If you can be in this virtual reality and now walk through a human body or I'm going to space, you know, I think that has massive opportunities, for learning and for training. And in terms of corporate training, there's always some kind of budget. What we looked at was sort of trying to bring into the content is the kind of stuff like choose your own ending, you know, where you bring in , the user engagement more and let them choose. And depending on the level of the skill where they want to take the story to the learning. More gamification, I guess in general. And I'm not just talking about games, but the concept of gamification rather with leaderboards and, getting dopamine hits when you do something right. Also micro learning doing it more on the job. So when, and if it's needed, so more, lots of prompts. Very short messages rather than having 45 minutes of compliance training., that's. what we see in the corporate world., but if you apply to learning in general, I think there's so much opportunity. And, and also the fact that we can take it to anyone really, that is connected. Right. You don't have to be sitting at a campus necessarily.
Erich:I can really see how the VR and AR can make this content so much more engaging. I think you find yourself physically ducking at things that aren't really there. So it, it is very engaging. The augmented reality on the phones was incredibly popular because it gets people into the story. It makes it so much more than it already is.
Jelle:I think that anything realistic life-like adds value to training because it gives the body his sense of realism and that's, a powerful technique. It's the same reason I, which are my personal favorite is deep fakes. I'm really invested in figuring out how to work or how we can apply them both from an ethical perspective and from a technology perspective. think about how VR take that another level with deep fakes as well . And then think about getting a history lesson about Waterloo by Napoleon himself. It's so much more enabling to have something content like that versus your traditional old school security awareness training content. So it really cool And also her comments on micro-learning and prompts real time prompts, something happens. You can immediately tell a user, look, this happened next time, do this to prevent it. Anything that you can do in real time then is very effective because it's still top of mind. And it's simple. And it's a really easy way to shape behavior. And it's very powerful.
Erich:All right. So Anna is always working with others in the cyber security community there in Africa.. We talked a little bit about how she's involved in the public sector and all that too. So I asked her personally, like, how do you view your involvement in the cybersecurity community and what are you looking to do?
Anna Collard:We have this opportunity in Africa where we have the youth. And I mean, to give you an example in South Africa, 60% or 65%, . Of 18 to 25 year olds are unemployed. That's massive youth unemployment problem. And at the same time, we have all this skills shortage, and we talk about enough IT and tech skills and security skills. So well, they have an opportunity, you know, and something that can actually be addressed. So I believe that , if we find ways to influence to change the way the university thinks, the way the are thinking. And take that to the youth in some way or other, even , if it's just in a small form that would make me happy, you know, just to make an impact somewhat, , and help make Africa a better place for the youth. That is my vision and that influences the projects I get involved with. I enjoy, you know, doing anything to do with education. I think that's really where we need to start., even at a younger level, , critical thinking is so key, know in Finland or Scandinavian countries already good to bringing in critical thinking even at kindergarten level. And if you look at the way the world is going, and you really have to teach our kids to think more critically. And that's really, , another thing I'm quite passionate about it also because I have my own kids, but I wonder when they, when they were old enough to be able to have a device how do we teach them to not become addicted to the stuff, to not believe everything?, Yeah, we can influence it in that way. If combine job with that, that would make me happier.
Erich:I got to say her passion for the next generation really shows through here. And one of the things that I said in, in past is that what we do right now is not always for us. Like our information is already out there. When you think about identity theft and how many people have are our tax IDs or social security numbers, or government IDs that, that are being stolen, left and right out there, mine's already out there so many times, it's just not even funny, but my kids are a different story. And I definitely get that feeling for her that she's doing this fight as much for the next generation or maybe more than it is for her own.
Jelle:You got to remember she won most inspiring woman in cyber 2021. She's really successful at what she does in her job, but then she gives back to the community she talks about giving back as almost a natural thing to do the only way I can describe it, it's a noble purpose she has.
Erich:If you get to know Anna at all she is such a down to earth person especially considering all of the things that she's accomplished and the things she's done. She is still just one of the most down to earth people I've ever met. This has been such an enlightening talk with Anna. I certainly gained some new perspectives and learn a lot about creating security awareness content for different groups and regions, and just how to engage people and the importance of putting a little bit of effort into things.
Jelle:It's always a pleasure to listen to Anna. It's enlightening. She, her approach to to, to what she does is as unique. I don't know a lot of people that are good at what they do are creative and give back to the community it's inspiring. It really is.
Erich:Well On that note, thank you for joining us for this episode of security masterminds. We hope you enjoyed this discussion. And if you did please subscribe and share the show with others. We will continue to bring you new episodes every month.