The Lion Within Us - Leadership for Christian Men
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The Lion Within Us - Leadership for Christian Men
567. God Was Right With Mark Gerson
Could ancient biblical wisdom be more scientifically accurate than our modern dating apps and self-help books? Serial entrepreneur and philanthropist Mark Gerson joins us to reveal the stunning parallels between modern social science research and the Torah's timeless teachings.
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Welcome to the Lion Within Us, a podcast serving Christian men who are hungry to be the leaders God intends you to be. I'm your host, chris Granger. Let's jump in. All right, fellas, this is your meat episode. Let's get into it, okay. So the scripture of the week this week is out of the book of Genesis, the second chapter, the 18th verse. It says the Lord, god, said it is not good for man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him. So, fellas, take some time, go back and listen to the spiritual kickoff episode where we unpack that verse at length to help you understand how you can simplify and apply it to your life. And as a quick reminder, we do this Monday through Friday within our Lion Within Us community, all for free. Head over to the Lion Within dot us to get started today.
Chris Grainger:Ok, now this conversation is going to be with my friend, mark Gerson. He's a serial entrepreneur, he's a philanthropist, he is a co-founder of several different types of groups out there. Fellas, I'll tell you what. This guy is on fire for the Lord and he has founded and seeded multiple, multiple billion-dollar companies. So, guys, it's just a fun conversation with him.
Chris Grainger:He took the time to write this book called God Was Right, how Modern Social Science Proves the Torah Is True. So he spends a lot of time on the Torah, old Testament, right, and the first five books primarily is where we camp out in this conversation and he's just an energetic guy, obviously just brilliant, and hopefully you guys are going to take some insights that he shares, particularly around marriage, around pornography, sexual temptation. He talks a lot around loneliness. If you guys are out there, you don't have many actually true friends around loneliness. If you guys are out there, you don't have many actually true friends. He gives a fresh perspective, using God's Word to help us understand it better. So hopefully you just enjoy this conversation with my friend Mark Gerson. All right, well, mark, welcome to the Land Within Us. How are you doing today, sir?
Mark Gerson:Terrific, chris, great to be with you. Thank you.
Chris Grainger:I'm excited to have you here, to be with you this morning, and looking forward to unpacking the conversation, but before we get into that, I always like to start just a little bit light. So what's something fun about you, mark, that maybe not many people know about?
Mark Gerson:What's fun about me? Well, I don't know. I have four kids, but everyone knows that. Let's see. I run six miles every morning. I haven't missed a day in 20 years because I have an addiction to exercise and I study the Bible on the treadmill Really, which I totally recommend. Yeah, and I really recommend it. Of course, you can only do audio and video, but this is the best time in the history of mankind to do Bible study because of the proliferation of English language Bible content available in audio and video to anybody and everybody.
Mark Gerson:So I get on the treadmill. I'm 52, so I'm not fast Not that I ever was, but I'm not fast. Now. It takes me one hour to do six miles, but that hour gives me a time to study the Bible. And the treadmill is a great place to study the Bible because the blood is literally flowing, you can't take a phone call, you can't fall asleep, you can do nothing except pay attention and you're as focused as you'll ever be on what you're studying, on the word. So I study every morning for an hour on the treadmill.
Chris Grainger:Wow.
Mark Gerson:And I totally recommend it.
Chris Grainger:And you're saying you're not fast, that's a 10 minute mile, right?
Mark Gerson:I mean you're, you're, you're right, it's a 10 minute, it's a 10 minute mile. Yeah, I mean God, how long would it take me to do a marathon if I can keep up? Keep up that pace? Way too long. But I don't do marathons, I just do six miles every day. And uh, I'm a and only on the treadmill, cause.
Chris Grainger:I could put incredible. That's incredible. So I run five K's in the woods every day, but, man, you're making me think about the treadmill. It does offer that opportunity for technology that I don't have.
Mark Gerson:Right, right. Well, do you listen to Bible when you're, when you're running in the woods?
Chris Grainger:Oh yeah, absolutely. I listen to lots of lots of podcasts, bible things like that, just anything to to to get fed while I'm in the woods. Yeah yeah, nothing like it.
Mark Gerson:That's right.
Chris Grainger:Oh man, Six miles, though. That's impressive. I thought I was doing good with a 5K. You're cranking it, man. That's awesome.
Mark Gerson:Yeah, yeah. It's a great way to start the day, and Bible study and treadmill are a perfect combination.
Chris Grainger:Any apps or anything that you use for your personal Bible study that you find just a lot of value in.
Mark Gerson:Yeah, it's a good question. So I go to English language Torah commentary. So the Torah is what Christians call the Old Testament. We call the Torah. It's the five books of Moses, genesis through Deuteronomy. Probably 10 or maybe 15 English language commentators who speak and teach in the style I like, which is a real fidelity to the text, trying to extract the practical meaning from the text. So, rabbi Ephraim Goldberg from the Boca Raton Synagogue, rabbi Moshe Scheiner from the Palm Beach Synagogue, rabbi Jonathan Sachs, who was the chief rabbi of England. He passed away a few years ago, but there's really great English language commentary available on any podcast engine. I use Listen Notes, but Spotify and Apple is the same thing and it's just, it's really available and it's a great time for me to study, a great place for me to study, and I think people should recognize this is the best time in the history of mankind to be studying the Bible.
Chris Grainger:Amen to that, amen. Well, thank you for those references, and I know, before we start recording, you said you wanted to dive into the biblical definition of manhood. What does that look like? There's so much in the Torah there for us to understand, so I'm going to give you an open platform and a floor here. How would you like to go with this?
Mark Gerson:Oh yeah. Well, there's a lot about manhood in the Torah, and the Hebrew language has a word ish, which means man. It's what we would say to be a man, as distinct from only being an adult male. And there are several examples of the Torah, all of which have something to teach us in our present day, because that's what the Torah is for to be a great guidebook for us in our current questions, challenges, struggles, opportunities. The Torah is always there, never disappoints, quite the opposite. But the first example, not the first, the first is Noah, but one of the first examples is Moses in Exodus.
Mark Gerson:It's when Moses sees a Jew fighting an Egyptian. So at this point, moses is a Jew being raised by the pharaoh of Egypt because the pharaoh's daughter had adopted him. So he's being raised in the palace. So he's a Jew being raised as an Egyptian. So who is he? Is he a Jew or an Egyptian? Good question, right, it's he's a Jew being raised and he has to confront that question.
Mark Gerson:When he sees a Jew fighting an Egyptian and this is one of my top five verses in the Bible what it says is he looked, so he sees a Jew fighting an Egyptian. So that lays up the scene and then it says he, referring to Moses, looked this way and that way and saw no man. In other words, what did he see? He saw his Jewish side, he saw his Egyptian side, and when you look this way and that way and you don't take a side, there is no man.
Mark Gerson:When you don't take a position in a time of struggle, in a time of challenge, when you're morally called, you saw an Egyptian slave master beating a Jewish slave. He looked this way at his Jewish identity, that way at his Egyptian identity, and he saw no man. When you're going back and forth, back and forth, there's no man. So what does it mean to be a man? In a biblical context? It means to take a righteous stand. He saw a slave being beaten by a slave master and when he was not getting involved, there was no man. And then he became a man by getting involved. Amen.
Chris Grainger:That's incredible. So I mean at that point, you know for you, as you you're kind of breaking through this with Moses. Where else do you what other you mentioned Noah's where? Where else do you take guys to give them those definitions or those pictures of what it looks like to be a biblical man?
Mark Gerson:Yeah, so Noah is also called an ish, which is the Hebrew word for man, is distinct from adult male. And it said Noah was righteous in his generation. So we see from Noah that to be a man means to be righteous. We see from Moses that to be a man means to stand up for justice and against evil and get physically involved if you have to. We see the Joseph story is really interesting.
Mark Gerson:So Joseph is a young man without a family in Egypt because his brothers had thrown him into the pit. And he's in Egypt effectively by himself and he finds himself as the head slave or the head servant in the home of Potiphar and he's continually being seduced by Potiphar's wife. And let's just all put ourselves in the mind of Joseph right now. He's a 17-year-old male being seduced by this beautiful woman. Okay, so we can all imagine being Joseph right now. Okay, and the Bible is not puritanical, so we shouldn't be puritanical in our assessment of it. So let's just all get into his frame of mind right now. We can all get there.
Mark Gerson:And what the Bible tells us is that he goes into the house and there was no man there, but we know that there was at least one adult male there, joseph. Therefore, what does it mean to be a man? It means in this context, perhaps it means and with the Torah we can always say, perhaps, because perhaps is saying this is one interpretation, but perhaps one of the components that it means to be a man and I think this is right is don't put yourself in the place of temptation. A man does not put himself in the place of temptation, because Joseph knew that it would not have been right for him to sleep with Potiphar's wife. He knew that and therefore to be a man in that context was don't put yourself in that position. Joseph's a 17-year-old male. Of course he's going to be tempted. So what does it mean to be a man? Don't put yourself in that position. Identify the temptation and stay far away from it. That's what a man does.
Chris Grainger:Well, when you think about that in today's modern context, that was Joseph back there. He was one house, one woman. You know, obviously, the lots of things can happen there. But guys, these days I mean, just look at your, your smartphone, the technology that's out there, the way that we're being attacked at every angle there I feel like there's temptation. Even in the most most wholesome of places there can be temptation. So how do you apply that? Or how do you counsel guys today who feel like, literally, we're just drowning in a sea of temptation everywhere we look?
Mark Gerson:What a great question and the Bible, as always, has the answer. So the Bible has this very interesting phrase and it's used several times. So in one of the instances it's used, it's in the law requiring returning lost things. So the Bible you have to return a lost thing, but the Bible doesn't say you have to return a lost thing.
Mark Gerson:It says you shall become incapable of not returning a lost thing, which is a very interesting way to describe it, because what it's saying is you should develop your character to such an extent that you should become incapable of not doing the right thing or you shall become incapable of doing the wrong thing. And this is such an important lesson from the Bible about how we should best work towards refining our character is we can all think of things that we simply are incapable of saying or incapable of doing. What the Bible is saying is that's good. Now, if you're incapable of doing something, you don't have to call upon your willpower. You only have to call upon your willpower for things you're capable of doing but don't want to do.
Mark Gerson:And what modern social science has demonstrated is that willpower is really weak. Is that we often is, that we might call upon it, but it might not be strong enough to overcome the temptation. And even when we call upon it and it does help us overcome the temptation it weakens. It weakens us for subsequent tasks because it consumes so much energy. So in comes the Bible, which doesn't even have a term for willpower. It doesn't even recognize the concept, doesn't even dignify it. It just has become incapable of doing bad things, become incapable of not returning a lost object. You, you don't have a temptation, you don't have to use your willpower if you become incapable of doing it so does it start?
Chris Grainger:I mean, does that look like more and more compromises for guys? I mean no guy ever wakes up in the morning says, today, today I'm gonna ruin my marriage. I mean that makes no sense. But it does start with little bitty compromises to your point that character development of being incapable. I mean I just see this as a major stumbling block for lots of guys.
Mark Gerson:Right, it is a major stumbling block, but I think the, the incapability of the Bible commands totally works. I mean, let's say, someone is, is uh, is uh tempted in one's marriage, okay, uh, if you're never alone with, if you're never alone with a woman, you're become incapable of violating the vows you took when you got married.
Chris Grainger:So, mike Pence, role you know, um and by the way, yeah, it's, it's as biblical uh derivation and and and and by the way.
Mark Gerson:Yeah, yeah, it's, it's as biblical derivation and and and resonance. So that is so. Everyone struggles with different things. If that is one thing someone struggles with, just become incapable of doing it. It's actually not that hard, like no one ever walked down the street and committed adultery. Right, there are a lot of steps along the way and each step requires the adulterers doing something to advance towards the ultimate act. At each step he can arrest himself, just so he should just arrest himself at the very beginning to say I will make myself incapable of committing adultery. And and of course, the highest form of being incapable of committing adultery is being so committed to one's spouse that one cannot think of another woman in that context. I'm just incapable of even thinking about another woman that way, because I'm so devoted to my wife. So that's the highest level of incapability. But even if someone is not there now, one can be much more practical about it. I mean, just become incapable of committing adultery. It's actually not that hard to do.
Chris Grainger:Go ahead.
Mark Gerson:Go ahead.
Chris Grainger:When you said that about your wife, where you just kind of you're, you're all in, you're, you're, you're, you're captivated by her, but then you still have these other things that are pulling at you with pornography and lust and all this, these temptations. How do you equip a guy who's maybe in his marriage? It's not there right now? I mean, he's not walking, he's not doing the things that he should be doing, he's not captivated by her. Maybe things are just being stale. Whatever it may be, where do you go?
Mark Gerson:Where do you point with that guy? What a great question. I think the Bible has several different answers. One is so I have a chapter in the book God was right on routine and the Bible is insistence on the importance of routine. But the commentators, the great Jewish commentators who, being a Jew, is great because we have thousands of years of conversations about the same text. So one of the things the commentators have said is that routine is necessary.
Mark Gerson:But there's a problem with routine, and that is routine can become routinized, and when something is routinized it's boring, and when something is boring it's what Rabbi Norman Lamb called poison to the soul. So what's the biblical solution? We need routine, but the paradox is that routine can become routinized and it can become boring. So how do we solve that? Well, the Bible comes in and says add newness in the routine. And I go through in the book how this is totally described in what the priest has to wear for the Yom Kippur ritual in Leviticus. So we have to add newness in routine. So I would say to men what the Bible would tell us to do is you're going to be married to the same woman, god willing of course, but do something new with her all the time. Just bring out the newness in her and let her bring out the newness in you and it won't get boring. And people can do that in any number of different ways. But marriage should never be boring and if it is, then try to find something new to do together, and the newness is the ultimate way to break out of boredom or routinization. All right, but let's say that's not working for someone at that moment.
Mark Gerson:One pornography is simply poison. It's all bad. It's all bad and I go through the stats which staggered me when I came across them in the book. But about how ubiquitous this is I really had no idea. But how pornographic sites comprise a significant percentage of the top 15 websites, the amount of web traffic. It's staggering and it's all bad.
Mark Gerson:So I think that that that men and men. Men don't watch, don't men in the biblical sense, the sense adult males consume pornography? Men don't, right, you know, and so I think. But it would be very healthy for an, an adult male, to come to make that conclusion to himself. I want to be a man and as a man I'm not going to go anywhere near pornography. I'm going to become incapable of going anywhere near pornography. In other words, I'm not going to load it up, I'm not going to log in, whatever. I'm not going to open the Mac, whatever it is, I'm just going to become incapable of doing it. Whatever it is, I'm just going to become incapable of doing it. And so, whatever device or whatever form one would consume pornography, keep it outside of one's reach, because if something is outside of your reach, you can't do it, you're incapable of it. You know.
Mark Gerson:This is why, during our Passover holiday, we're not, we're not allowed to eat bread products for those seven days. So the Bible says this is not Jewish practice. Well, it is, but it days. So the Bible says this is not Jewish practice. Well, it is, but it comes directly from the Bible. It says you shall have the bread out of your home. Why out of your home? Because if it's out of your home, you're incapable of eating it.
Chris Grainger:That's right, that's right.
Mark Gerson:So I think that same biblical lesson that just get it out of your home, just get it out of your, of course, out of your heart and out of your mind, but but, but just make it an impossibility, make it impossible to do.
Mark Gerson:And I go through in the book how the modern analogy of this is do I have, I can't or I don't goals. So if someone says I can't use pornography or I can't do another bad thing, that that person is victim to a voice in his head, or another person saying, yes, you can, that thing, that that person is victim to a voice in his head, or another person saying, yes, you can. But if that person says I don't do pornography because I'm a man and men don't do pornography, he's going to be much better chance of never getting near it. So I think the analog would be I'm incapable of is the same thing as saying I don't Because if I don't do it, I'm incapable of it. If I can't do it, then someone else can say, oh, come on, of course you can, and then we're having a conversation that's not a conversation you want to have.
Chris Grainger:Right, that's a powerful yeah.
Mark Gerson:Yeah, no. I think a man should say a man is as in, not an adult male, but a man as in be a man should say I don't do pornography because I'm a man, and if that man is married, he because I'm a man. And if that man is married, he can say I don't do pornography because I'm a man and I'm committed to my wife, and this would totally violate that sacred covenant with I have with her. If he's not married yet and I have a chapter on how marriage is really the best thing in the world but if he's not married yet, then then he should say, as a man, I'm not going to do pornography because of all the damage that that it will do to me and to the women who are in the pornography and to my future relationships. It's all bad, it's all damage. Pornography is damaging to the woman in the pornography.
Mark Gerson:So much of sex trafficking relates to pornography. It's just horrible and it's totally degrading to the sexual sentiment. In fact, I have the data in the book too. The sociologists have determined that we are in that single people, not married people. Single people are in a sexual recession. That's the term sociologists give.
Chris Grainger:Sexual recession.
Mark Gerson:Sexual recession. Yeah, they're not single people, they're not, they're really they're not having sex, and that really confounded sociologists because it's like why I mean why aren't single people having sex? It's not like, it's certainly nothing to do with a prohibition against premarital sex. Those prohibitions really only exist in certain subcultures we're talking. There's a sexual recession in cultures where there's no problem with premarital sex. So why is it? It's because of pornography and video games. I mean so, and pornography, video games and also non-marital sex I have the data on this is so unsatisfying that men prefer video games particularly new releases and pornography to sex. Now, marital sex is entirely different, whereas there's no sexual recession in the data in marital sex at all, because it's fundamentally much more fulfilling and it's just better for people on every level. This is what the data says, not what the Bible says. The Bible kind of says that too, but the data says it very clearly.
Chris Grainger:Yeah, that is incredible. I mean just to think you know how quickly that happened to you. I mean, just go back to when the first video games came out, and you're playing Super Mario Brothers on a regular. Nintendo Like I think that that would evolve to the point to where that would overtake your brain, to where you would crave that more than having sex with your spouse like that. That's incredible.
Mark Gerson:But yeah, it's sex with it's more. The studies show it more it's single men are not having sex with their girlfriends or whoever yeah, no, married men are having, married couples are having plenty of sex.
Mark Gerson:I mean, it basically proves this is the data in a very secular way, proving the Bible is right that the best sex is had between married couples. Sex is had between married couples and the data suggests that premarital sex is so unsatisfying that single men are preferring video games and porn to premarital sex. So that's in the data, the very secular data, the social, scientific data.
Chris Grainger:Isn't it funny when science catches up with the Bible.
Mark Gerson:Exactly that's what the whole book's about. Exactly so, exactly so. The book is how modern God was right, how modern social science proves the Torah is true. And, chris, it's exactly what you said. It's what I discovered in the in the course of writing the book was that the Bible is a guidebook that offers guidance on dozens, perhaps hundreds, of different subjects, and I just tested it against what modern social science says and, chris, you got exactly right. Modern social science, which is entirely secular the social scientists don't even know they're asking the same questions the Bible asks have come around to the same conclusions the Bible gives, teaching us that the Bible is scientifically worthy of our study and our devotion. Amen. No matter what faith somebody is, the Bible is simply right. When the Bible tells us how many times to date somebody before marrying her, when the Bible tells us how to think about clothing, when the Bible tells us how to think about diversity or routine or parenting or education, it's simply been proven right on everything from a secular lens.
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Chris Grainger:Mark, you had put in one chapter of your book. It was a funny little dialogue from the Seinfeld show. It was about marriage and it was just breaking down about how. But when I read it I can just see there's so many guys even today who just have this misconception framing of marriage. And can you truly be happy if you're married and if it's like the ball and chain? You hear that type of language and stuff like that. The way you pulled out that commentary, it was great. So just help us reframe. Why, ultimately? First of all, what is the biblical design of marriage? I know, but share it for our listeners. And then, why is that so important to be sharing that with young people in particular? Because that is where we're really missing the opportunity the most right now.
Mark Gerson:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what a great question. So I mean so God creates, of course, adam as the first man. And then God says he observes Adam alone in the garden and he says God says it is not good for man to be alone. Now this is a really important statement, because the Bible only says not good twice. It says it is not good for Adam to be alone. And then it says it again when Jethro, moses's beloved Gentile father-in-law, comes to Moses after the Exodus and sees Moses leading alone. And Jethro says to Moses what you are doing, leading alone, is not good. Moses leading alone and Jethro says to Moses what you are doing, leading alone, is not good. So the only two times in the Bible where we see the term not good, it refers to somebody being alone or doing something alone. So aloneness is not good. Okay, so God notices in early Genesis that Adam is alone and he determines it is not good.
Mark Gerson:So what does God create for Adam? Well, as I said in the book, he had a lot of choices. He could have created for Adam a friend. He could have created for him a golfing buddy, but he doesn't. He creates for Adam a wife, and, and the way he creates for a wife is very interesting and very important. There's a mistranslation that says that Eve was created from Adam's rib. It's not the rib, it's the side, which is really important. So Eve is created from Adam's side, which is really important. So Evie is created from Adam's side, telling us that a husband and a wife are like two sides that need to be joined together Very different than a rib, right? So a husband and wife are two sides that need to come together. But the description of a wife is so like everything in the Bible, it's just so precise, instructive and magnificent. It doesn't say wife, it says I have created a help against him, telling us, of course, she's a wife, but telling us what is the role of a wife, or what to her husband, or what is the role of a husband to her wife, because in this case it's symmetrical, and so what it's saying is that the role of a spouse is to be a help against him or her, in other words, to love that person, and part of loving that person is making them better, to help point out flaws, to help point out failures, to help point out opportunities for growth and to help that person correct the failures and pursue and achieve those opportunities for growth. A help against, I will make a help against him. Beautiful description so that's a husband or a wife, in this case a wife, but a husband or a wife. So a help against him. And so that's obviously the ideal relationship, because God could have Adam's alone. Okay, how do we alleviate his aloneness or his loneliness? Well, we do it with a wife, god does it with a wife, and we see this then the importance of marriage throughout the Bible, and we also see in the Bible how to pick your spouse.
Mark Gerson:And the single worst, perhaps the single worst piece of advice ever given was Joe Biden, who was speaking at some pharmaceutical conference or convention or whatever, and he pulls aside a young woman, I think in her late 20s, early 30s, and he says to her, totally apropos of nothing, he says let me give you the advice I give my daughters and granddaughters no serious guys till you're 30. So that was President Joe Biden's advice to some young woman. Maybe she was younger than, but it doesn't matter how old she was. This was his advice to the young women of America no serious guys till you're 30. Okay so, but this is the prevailing. He's not an original guy. This is the prevailing ideology of his intellectual and political culture. This is the prevailing ideology of his intellectual and political culture. And so what does it mean? Let's unpack it. What it means is that an emerging, let's say an adolescent, emerges. Teens, late teens, early 20s they should start dating. They should date a lot of people, break up with a lot of people, keep dating more people, break up with more of them, and then, by the time they get, they get to be 30, according to Joe Biden, then they should start getting serious and then presumably get married. He doesn't specify, but I don't know 33, 35, somewhere around that. So, yeah, that's clearly the logic of what Biden's saying Totally against what the Bible's saying.
Mark Gerson:How do we know it's against the Bible? Saying, well, we have the happiest marriage in the Bible is between Isaac and Rebecca leading us to ask well, how did they decide to marry each other? Like, what makes for the happiest marriage in the Bible? Everybody wants one. So what makes for it? And the Bible comes in and says well, I'll tell you.
Mark Gerson:So Abraham's wife, sarah dies. And Abraham says to his servant, eliezer, you have to find a wife for Isaac. So Eliezer sent a mission find a wife for Isaac. And Abraham gives him one piece of advice, or or not advice. He gives him one instruction. He says go find a wife for Isaac in Haran. So why Haran? Because previously Abraham had made souls in Haran. So what do we know about Haran? It was a place where there were people whose souls can be made, teaching us what? That when you want to find a husband or a wife, look in a good place. And then so Eliezer goes to that good place. He goes to Haran and he identifies a woman. This woman will be.
Mark Gerson:Rebecca is Rebecca. He identifies a woman and he notices two and only two things about her. One, she's very fair to look upon and two, she brings water for him and all of his camels. So she is ridiculously generous in giving. So, on the basis of those two and only two characteristics, eliezer says to Rebecca effectively, you are the woman for my man, isaac. And then Rebecca is given the choice. She's given the choice.
Mark Gerson:So people who say the Bible is sexist they don't know what they're reading or talking about they're probably not reading anything. They don't know what they're talking about. This is one of many examples of how the Bible empowers women. Rebecca in ancient times is given the choice do I marry him or not? So what does she know about Isaac? She's never met him, but what does she know? She knows that he's wealthy, so he'll be a good provider, and she knows that he loves God. So, on the basis of those two and only two characteristics, rebecca says I will go with you to Eliezer to go marry Isaac.
Mark Gerson:So what do we learn there? What we learn there is that the biblical formula for finding a spouse is to identify, is to first look in a good place. You want to find a spouse, you know look in a good place, go to a good place to find a spouse. And then, when you're in that good place, just look for two characteristics. And whether his friends are funny is not one. Whether she likes warm or cold weather, vacations is not one. Look for two important characteristics that'll make for a good spouse. There aren't that many to choose from, maybe five or six, just look for two, maybe three, and then.
Mark Gerson:So then what happens? Well, we go to Genesis 24, 67, which describes what happens when Isaac meets Rebecca, to Genesis 24, 67, which describes what happens when Isaac meets Rebecca. What the text tells us is he married her, she became his wife and he loved her, and the order of things in the Bible is always important. So what's the Bible telling us? Go to a good place, identify the two characteristics, then just get married. He married her, then she became his wife. So being a spouse must be something different than getting married. So what would it mean to be a spouse? It means probably we're talking about Rebecca so probably iterative acts of giving, and then after one gets married and then one becomes a spouse, and then he loved her and then love follows. So the biblical formula for a long and happy marriage it's very simple, because the Bible is going to be simple in its guidance, because every guidebook is clear and simple, because we're supposed to follow the guidebook, and the Bible is the greatest of all the guidebooks. So the biblical guidebook, the greatest of them all, it says identify those two characteristics, just get married, start doing spouse-like things, and then love will follow and continually deepen.
Mark Gerson:And you know, in Western culture we have really the opposite, which is we have this ridiculous phrase fall in love. You can't fall in love. You could fall in the pool, you could fall in your face, you can't fall in love. What the Bible is telling us is you don't fall in love. You cultivate love. Love grows after commitment. What the Bible is telling us is love doesn't precede commitment. After commitment, what the Bible is telling us is love doesn't precede commitment. Love follows commitment. You don't decide to get married because you love her. You decide to get married because he or she has the characteristics that will make for a good spouse. Then you start doing spouse-like things and then love follows and it continually deepens, right.
Chris Grainger:What about the age drift? I mean, how do you address that? What did you find in your research there? Because you mentioned Biden's advice? Obviously terrible, but I mean you hear more and more people that the statistics show people getting married later they're having babies later. That creates all the more different types of problems. That also creates the problem where you're not going to have very large families, because if you don't start until your mid thirties it's hard to have four or five kids If you don't start until you're mid thirties. That's just the way it is. So how would you address that? Where do you see that drift starting?
Mark Gerson:Well, the biblical formula and I read about this in the book, the biblical formula, the logic is you get married young because if all you got to do to get married is identify two or maybe three characteristics that actually optimize for a good spouse, it does not take very long to identify that. I mean, how long did it take Eliezer to know that Rebecca was very fair to look upon? Well, that one was probably two seconds. Okay, how long did it take him to notice that she was exceptionally generous? Again, not very long. These characteristics, they're fairly easy to identify, they pronounce themselves early.
Mark Gerson:And I go through in the book how there's this concept that hadn't been previously applied to romance but it's applied to decision-making theory in general, called information overload, which is in business. If you analyze an investment, you could do that past the. If you analyze an investment past, you could do that past the point of no return or past the point where there are positive returns. In other words, we all know from making decisions of any kind, whether it's in business, whether it's investing, whether it's dating, that there's a certain amount of information and that's enough. You know, like when you want to buy a house, like how much do you have to know, you have to know something. But do I mean, there's a limit to what you have to do when you want to buy anything a car, a house, an investment? Yes, you have to do your research and know some things, but at that point you just make a decision and, uh, and it's exactly the same thing with romance.
Mark Gerson:So the biblical formula, the logic of it, is early marriage. Because if you say, look, I'm just going to, I'm going to, I really want to get married, because marriage is and the data shows is the ultimate source of happiness, I want to get married. So how do I do that? I'm going to go to a good place and I'm going to look for two characteristics, which are which are going to pronounce themselves really quickly, because they do. And then, once they pronounce those really quickly, I'm not going to do what so many young people do now, which is to look for 200 other characteristics.
Chris Grainger:Yeah, no, I got my two or my three.
Mark Gerson:This is awesome, I'm done Great, let's get married Right, and so that should predict for early marriage. And, chris, to your point too, yes, people are getting married much later now. Well, I mean, first, the divorce rate's down from the 80s. That rates down from the 80s. That's only because few people are getting married at all, that's right. Not many get married, right, that's good, exactly, exactly, so it's. It's, the data looks good, but but it's, it's actually a smaller denominator, so it's not good at all.
Mark Gerson:But, um, I, I have these stats from e-harmony in the book that says that the average couple dates for 2.6 years before getting married. Like, why, what do you need 2.6 years to figure out the? The two or three characteristics announce themselves in a few weeks. 2.6 years, what do you? What do they? I mean, I really don't know what they're doing. Or I mean, well, I know what they're doing.
Mark Gerson:They're looking for characteristics that are ultimately irrelevant, which is ironic because people date for long periods of time the 2.6 years and they reported to the sociologists. They date because they're looking for compatibility. So look for all these characteristics to determine compatibility. But then the Institute for Divorced Financial Analysts analyzed why people get divorced and the number one answer basic incompatibility. So it's just tragic irony People search for years looking for compatibility and then get divorced because they don't have it, because you're not compatible. Based upon characteristic 137, you're, you're compatible with the first two or three, then you got to get married, do spouse like things, and then the love will follow yeah, it's almost like society's even taught now, like if you go too fast, like you're acting irrationally, like yeah, exactly, irrationally, irrationally yeah, it's the opposite, like I, I have.
Mark Gerson:I have so much, my wife and I, we have so much praise and respect for these young couples who who get married young and and it's it's, it's it's happening in in in lots of parts of America. I mean, I spoke at this wonderful church in Texas and I mean I'm from New York, so this kind of thing doesn't happen here nearly as often as it should. But I spoke at this wonderful church in Texas and I met, person after person, these young people. It's like, yeah, I'm 22. She's 21. We're getting married in six months, or I'm 28. She's 27. Here are three kids. It's like these people are doing it right, they totally got it, and, and which is totally the opposite of the Joe Biden advice, which is wait till you're 30 before you start even getting serious- Right, right.
Chris Grainger:Well, I don't know how much we should be listening to Sleepy Joe anyway, but anyway, how about longevity? Because I love some of the statistics you pulled out around. Longevity for men, like, not only does it lead you to a more happy life, to a more fulfilled life, but it seems to be their stats as well it leads to a longer life. So just speak to that.
Mark Gerson:Married people are happier and live longer. I mean, the stats are very clear about that and the only thing debated is the reasons why, but it almost doesn't matter. It's like if you're married, you will live longer. Why is that the case? I don't know why it matters, Just get married. But yeah, married people live significantly longer. I have all the stats in the book and married people live longer and active, but non-full-time grandparents live longer.
Mark Gerson:And that's another biblical teaching about the deep importance of grandparenthood and how being close to one's grandchildren and being actively involved in their lives gives the grandparent this sense of future orientation. And active grandparents are happier, they're less likely to develop neurological conditions and they're much more likely to live longer. So what the Bible would say is marriage plus active grandparent equals longevity, and that's what modern social science confirms.
Chris Grainger:So when you say active grandparent, like give me a couple of examples what are you seeing there? Are they taking care of them all during the day or they just spending time with them on the weekend? Like what would be just a general framework for an active grandparent?
Mark Gerson:Yes, it's a great question. So active grandparent is distinguished in the literature from full-time grandparent. Yes, it's a great question. So active grandparent is distinguishing the literature from full-time grandparent. So the parent should be full-time. So what's an active grandparent? So it's a great question, because what's an active anything? An active anything is someone who's dependent on, and each family that could be different things.
Mark Gerson:You know, in the Torah's view, there's one really important and indispensable role for the grandparent, which is educating the grandchildren. And we see in the ancient rabbinic literature that there was a debate is it a greater joy to teach one's grandchildren or to learn from one's grandchildren? But the premise is learning with one's grandchildren is the best thing of all. And but the Bible says this you shall teach it to your children and your children's children. Right out of the Bible, right out of Exodus, and so in the, in the Bible, the grandparent has the sacred responsibility of education. The grandparent has this sacred responsibility of education. So, and that's something that that's a responsibility, it's, it's, it's a commitment, as distinguished from showing up once in a while and giving out treats. Right, it's, you got to educate your grandchildren. And it makes total sociological sense why this would be a good thing for grandparents to do.
Mark Gerson:One grandparents are physically capable of educating. You know, as as we get older and we become at least for me, I'm 52. You know, as we get older, less capable of doing things than when we were in our 20s, obviously, and as you get to be a grandparent, even fewer. But you can still educate your grandchildren, no problem. So they're plenty physically capable of doing it. They also have wisdom, so they have a lot to teach and a lot to share, and they also have time. They also have wisdom. So they have a lot to teach and a lot to share, and they also have time. So the parents may need to be taking care of the other children or working. The grandparents, hopefully, don't have to do either. So they have that time. And what the Bible say, yes, invest that time in educating your grandchildren. And so that's what the Bible says.
Mark Gerson:And I think in modern society, educating one's grandchildren. Of course the grandchildren can go to school or if they're homeschooled, maybe the grandparent can partake in that. But there's certainly an educational role and component that a grandparent can play in any child's life and that educational component is not giving occasional pieces of advice, but like we're going to learn this together. That could be Bible. It could be something else. You know, I know grandparents who, who, who, basically take over their kids math instruction, because the grandparent would happen to be really good at math, and other grandparents take over the kids Bible instruction. It's like whatever the gifts and capabilities of the grandparent teach the grandchildren. But there could be a lot.
Mark Gerson:There are lots of other ways grandparents can be involved, of course, in addition to educating. I mean it could be picking the kids up from school, helping them with their homework, helping them with other kinds of programs. I mean, every family is different and every grandparent's different, every grandchild's different, every parent's different. So active grandparenthood can and does mean very different things in very different families. And you know what the Bible and modern social science would say. You know it's all good as long as it's active and as long as the grandparent is a really important part of that kid's life. You know, not just someone who shows up once in a while and has fun with the grandchild, but someone who's a really important part of that kid's life, someone the grandchild really depends on, relies upon, learns from on a consistent basis. That's an act of grandparenthood, love it.
Chris Grainger:Love it. Guys, I'm going to take a quick break. We'll be right back with more. We're making a big change that I think you're really going to enjoy.
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Chris Grainger:Mark, one of the areas I was really hoping to get your insight on out of your book, because I run into this so much in myself, as well as other men that come to the line within us is just the pandemic of loneliness period Outside the confines of marriage. But we have lots of guys who just don't have many brothers in Christ. They don't have those types of relationships anymore. How do you encourage, how do you equip, how do you counsel guys who just right now, if they look at their list, they have lots of Facebook friends, but they that's, that's all surface level crap.
Mark Gerson:We know that like there's no actual deep relationship.
Chris Grainger:So what do you? What do you counsel there?
Mark Gerson:Well, chris, the studies show you're exactly right. So people have lots of Facebook friends or other social media friends, but I have the data on this in the book the number of people that respondents identify as close friends has consistently gone down over the last 30, 40 years and and that's a real problem. And but there's a real solution, which is to be in a faith community. If you're really in a faith community, you're going to have friends, and I think it's the. I don't have the data on this, but I do think it's logic and maybe even common sense that the decline of participation in faith communities correlates with the decline of friendships. Communities correlates with the decline of friendships.
Mark Gerson:I don't know people in tight faith communities who don't have a lot of friends. Or, to frame it positively, people in tight faith communities have a lot of friends and they have a lot of friends in the most meaningful way. And the greatest rabbi of all time, maimonides, actually borrowing from Aristotle, he talked about the four kinds of friendship. Aristotle had the three. So the four kinds of friendship are friends of pleasure, that's somebody that you'll just enjoy watching a game with.
Mark Gerson:Right yeah friends of use, that's someone you do business with. Those are two of our shelves. Maimonides added friends of proximity, which is your neighbor, and then they both had the fourth, which is friends of the good. And what are friends of the good? What's friendship of the good about? Friendship of the good is about two people, or a group of friends who believe that something that they share in common is sacred. It could be a church, it could be a synagogue, it could be a cause, it could be anything, but their friendship is about something. It could be a charity that they're involved in together because they want to improve the world in a certain way and their partnership is helping do that and their friendship develops accordingly. So these are friendships of the good. And where is the best place to develop friendships of the good? In your faith community. And because faith communities they should be, they should be about good.
Mark Gerson:Now they could be doing different kinds of good, and I've been speaking at, I've spoken, I've been so blessed, my wife and I my wife's a rabbi and we've been so blessed to speak at many churches, and every time we are just so gratified and so impressed, even blown away, by just how many good and great things are happening in each of the churches, how many separate ministries there are to help people in so many different ways. So, if someone's in one of those churches and they're in one of the ministries helping young men develop the skills of mechanics which is one thing that we saw helping people of special needs kids, I mean we see so many different ministries, all of which are important and, I would say, sacred. I mean, if you're working together with someone in one of those ministries, they're going to become, you're going to have friends and you're going to have friends of the good and you're not going to be lonely. So, yeah, there's something of a friendship crisis, but I don't think that crisis exists among people in faith communities who are really in faith community. And I distinguish, like if you go to church, you go to synagogue, like once in a while you just go and you leave the building. You're not really in the faith community, you're just going into the building for the service and then you're leaving. But being deeply immersed in the community, building something with other people in the community, you're going to make friends doing that. And I have another chapter in the book too it's going to be good for business because there's this great promise in Deuteronomy.
Mark Gerson:So God doesn't make guarantees in the Bible. Why doesn't God make guarantees in the Bible? God hates guarantees. Why? Because there's no notion of faith. If God's the ATM machine in the sky, there's no notion of faith. Right, right, if the deal is you say the right prayers or do the right things and then you get what you want, what's the role of faith? It's just a transaction, it's not a relationship, and God wants a relationship. So God does not do guarantees, except in one case, whereas in Deuteronomy 15.10, it says effectively, not literally, but effectively if you give generously and enthusiastically to the poor, you will be blessed in all of your undertakings. Now, blessings are material. So what the Bible is telling us is that if you give generously, enthusiastically to the poor, you'll become better off materially. Okay, so that's strange, because normally you think if I give something, I have one less of it and the recipient has one more right.
Chris Grainger:The Bible is saying yeah, but that law doesn't apply to charity to when you give to the poor.
Mark Gerson:So when you get to the poor, forget that law, because if you give you'll be blessed in all your undertaking, so if you give you will get more. Ok, then I ask as a rationalist well how Well it turns out. The social science data says it's exactly right is that those who are charitable end up doing much better financially than those who are not. All the personal finance studies that give all these recommendations about how you can improve your personal finance. They say give more to charity.
Chris Grainger:It's like well, how's that going to improve my personal finance?
Mark Gerson:Well, the Bible says it does, and the modern, contemporary, totally secular personal finance people are saying, yes, it's true, give more to charity and you'll have more money, which seems counterintuitive.
Mark Gerson:But then why is it so?
Mark Gerson:I try to figure it out in the book, and I think there are several different reasons as to why those who give to charity prosper financially, but one of which is that so I'm the co-chairman of one charity and the chairman and founder of two others, so I've seen this in three instances is that very few people give because they search for a general cause online and then give a big gift.
Mark Gerson:It's very rarely People give in community, people give in fellowship, and so if someone is immersed in a community that does charity and that could be one's church, of course, one synagogue or another organization they're going to develop these close bonds of friendship around the thing or the institution or the cause that they all agree is sacred. So if there are 10 people who have developed a friendship by supporting a ministry, in a church or a charity, and then, or 10 people, let's say 100 people, and then you need to hire a plumber, who are you going to pick? Are you going to go to the internet to try to find a review of some plumber? Or are you going to say, wait, that person who is in my church, who did that great thing, for that ministry? I'm going to hire him because I trust him and I like him and I want him to prosper.
Chris Grainger:Right, it's how it works. That's how it works. That's it. I'm curious. What a book of this magnitude. I can only imagine the countless hours of research.
Mark Gerson:So what was, maybe what insight surprised you the most when you were doing your research, as you were putting this together, I would say the thing that surprised me the most when you were doing your research, as you were putting this together, I would say the thing that surprised me the most is how comprehensive and how relevant the Bible is. The Bible covers I mean, the book's a long book. It's about 900 pages and it has to be a long book because the Bible covers so many different subjects. And I wanted to explore is the Bible true on anything? Nothing, everything, some things. So I had to cover a lot of subjects. So I think there are 33 chapters and I found out the Bible is true on everything.
Mark Gerson:But I was astonished by how comprehensive the Bible is and comprehensive, and not just on general subjects. The Bible has very specific opinions as to how many dates you should go on before you get married, what kind of clothing you should wear in the morning, like very specific and practical things. So I was astonished by how comprehensive it is, how it covers everything, from diversity to anti-fragility, to education, to reframing, to clothing, to dating. It covers everything and it does so with guidance that's totally applicable to 2025. So this leads to the question who wrote the Bible? Well, chris, I like to think you know if someone gave you or me the assignment. I want you to write a book about everything that's going to be completely relevant in the year 6000. We would say to that person you're insane. Like that's not even a good question. It's an insane question because no man is capable of even thinking about that, let alone doing it. We're not even. We don't know what's going to exist 20 years from now, let alone a thousand years from now.
Mark Gerson:I mean, it's an insane task and uh, but you know, the Bible did it. It did it. It addressed everything that's totally relevant in the year 2025. So then, who wrote the Bible? I conclude from that, as a rationalist, that God must have either written the Bible or profoundly influenced the Bible, and the latter is consistent with what happens in the Bible, because everything that happened after creation God does in partnership with man. So there had to have been very significant divine intervention in the writing of the Bible, because no human being could even think about doing it, let alone do it.
Chris Grainger:Amen, amen, mark, this has been phenomenal. Before we wrap up, though, let's have a fun little lightning round with our listeners. A little bit of fun here at the end. So you already mentioned you're a big runner. What else do you enjoy doing for fun? Do you have any hobbies out there?
Mark Gerson:I would say so. When I, when I wrote the book, I said I can only write well when I'm smoking a cigar.
Mark Gerson:Okay, so, whenever I traveled I would find a place where I could smoke a cigar, cause I could, I need. I really gave me the focus and the concentration. And then, about a year ago, a friend of mine introduced me to Zen, so introduced me to Zen. So I've substituted a lot, of, a lot of my cigar smoking with Zen. So I, I, I, I write with either cigars or Zen. Okay, how long did it take you to write the book? Um, three and a half years. But, um, um, but certainly not full time. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm a, I'm a businessman and I and I co-chair one charity and chair two others, so I'm very involved philanthropically and commercially. But it took, but, but with that it took, it took three and a half years. I can only write well for two to two and a half hours a day. So I would basically study for two to four hours a day and then write for two and a half hours a day and and that's it.
Chris Grainger:You're a machine brother, you're a machine, all right, so you finished running those six miles. What's your nutrition? What's your go-to food? What's?
Mark Gerson:your favorite. So many years ago, like 25 years ago now, I lost 60 pounds. So I have a very strict diet and this is right from the Bible. So there's this question in and there's this question in the ancient rabbinic literature. There was, like this Bible quoting contest what's the most important verse in the Bible? So one person says you know one of the greatest hits, shema Yisrael, hero, israel. Another person says you shall love the neighbor as yourself.
Mark Gerson:In comes Ben Pazza and he says the most important verse in the Bible is from Exodus 28, which says you shall sacrifice a lamb in the morning and a lamb in the afternoon. And then it says by a claim, he wins. So why is the most important verse in the Bible, one that most people never heard of you should sacrifice a lamb in the morning, one in the afternoon telling us that the most important thing is what we do consistently. What do we do in the morning and the afternoon, day after day? So my diet is consistent, which it kind of has to be. As someone who used to be overweight, I just need a very consistent diet. So it's a lot of egg whites, a lot of lean protein, grilled chicken, smoked turkey, definitely no potatoes, tabasco sauce instead of salad dressing. So a very consistent diet.
Chris Grainger:That's awesome. That's awesome. So what do you think about God? What's your favorite thing about him, Mark? What do you think about God?
Mark Gerson:What's your favorite thing about him, mark? My favorite thing about God is that and the Torah is so clear on this what does God want from each of us? It's something he wants with each of us, which is a relationship. So this is all throughout the Torah. God wants a relationship with each of us, and I love being in relationship with God, and everyone should be. God wants a relationship with each and every person. It's so clear all throughout the Bible. I mean the Bible. I was just because I teach. If anyone wants to come, I teach through this incredible parachurch ministry devoted to Christian Zionism and Bible Semitism called Eagle's Wings. I teach every Tuesday at noon, eastern time on Zoom. Just go to Torah Tuesday and we were talking about this I think it was two weeks ago when we were going through the portion of Exodus we were studying, which is that God says I will build a sanctuary within them. In other words, god wants to be within us, god wants a relationship with each of us, and so that's one of the many things that we love about God.
Chris Grainger:Amen, let's flip it 180. What's your least favorite thing about the evil one?
Mark Gerson:Well, in Judaism we don't really have that concept. So I would say we have a slightly different concept. It's called the Yetzirah, which is the evil inclination. So the evil inclination is Chris, that's what we were talking about before. The evil inclination is pornography, right, or whatever is tempting someone right now. And I think the Bible says just make yourself incapable of it, whatever it is. Whatever anyone's evil inclination is, make yourself incapable of it. So, whatever it is and the Bible's guidance is so practical Like there's no one would ever say I just can't do that. Of course you can. There's always a way to make yourself incapable of it and it's usually not that hard. In fact it's never hard. Just make yourself incapable of it and the evil inclination will uh, we'll never get anywhere near you.
Chris Grainger:There you go Well, mark. Last question for you is what do you hope the listeners out there remember the most from our conversation today?
Mark Gerson:Well, first, I've totally enjoyed every minute of it, so thank you, I would say. The one thing I hope the listeners take away is how practical, interesting and relevant the Bible is Like. The Bible is the most relevant text. It is the best guidebook ever written for people living in the year 2025.
Chris Grainger:Right, right, amen. But where do you want to send them to connect with you, to get a copy of the book? Follow all the stuff that you're doing it. I don't know social media channels and things like that as well.
Mark Gerson:Thank you, yeah, I just go. Anyone can just go to God was rightcom and yeah, and the book, the book can be gotten from there and it just links to the bookseller sites. But, yeah, godwasrightcom, and anyone can email me at Mark at GodWasRightcom.
Chris Grainger:All right, all right, mark. Was there anything else you'd like to share today?
Mark Gerson:No, just I'm just so grateful to you for this incredible conversation, this opportunity to share the word with your listeners. So thank you, Chris.
Chris Grainger:Yeah, mark, thank you, sir, I hope you have a wonderful day. Thank you so much. And now it's even easier to join than ever. We've lowered access to just $15.99 a month. Immediately, you'll get our daily spiritual kickoffs, our Bible studies, lion Lunches, friday Forge and so much more. Every man needs a stronghold and you don't have to fight alone. Join today at thelionwithinus that's thelionwithinus and get started today. All right, fellas, I told you it's going to be a good one. So thankful for Mark for sharing.
Chris Grainger:Uh, the question of the week this week is are you treating marriage as a covenant or a contract? So again, covenant, no matter what I do, contracts, say if you, then I and fellas, I'm just telling you Mark, he showed us time and time again, stat after stat after stat, how God's designed for man to be united with a spouse, with a wife, how that is just it's. It leads to a such a fulfilling life and opportunity for us to serve him in a meaningful way. So if you guys that are married out there hopefully enjoyed it, for you guys that are single out there, hopefully that gave you some really good encouragement as well as some practical tips. Remember you don't look over two qualities, fellows. If you can check those. A couple of those move forward. All right. So, guys, if you enjoyed this, share it out, give us a rating and review, and also encourage you to head over to the lion within, dot us to see what we're doing. We have lots of ways we serve on our daily spiritual kickoff. You can join our community. We'd love to have you in our community, fellas.
Chris Grainger:By the way, our community is awesome. It's. It has its own app. It has its own way to connect with guys in a meaningful way. It's not putting junk out there. It's not a bunch of trolls out there. So it's all I found at the lion withinus. Or apply for our leadership mastermind. That's another great, great way to get plugged in, fellas. So all that stuff is found at the lion withinus. You can also open up the Bible app, where we are a writer on that. So we have tons and tons and tons of above studies on the Bible app, from three day plans to five day plans to seven day plans. There are lots of plans out there, fellas. The I'm Just a Guy series is something that we're getting just a ton of great feedback on, so maybe you'll find that to be an encouragement for you. All right, so come back on Friday. We'll see you for our fun Friday episode. Have a great day, guys, and just keep unleashing the lion within.
