Speaking with Grace and Truth to King James Onlyism: An Interview with Author and YouTuber Mark Ward

It has become a topic of contention and debate over the past century. What translation of the Bible do you use? Is the King James the only translation worthy of your personal reading and study? What do we do with all of these other English translations out there? How do we deal with the often unkind treatment brought by those who contend for King James Onlyism? Mark Ward, Author and YouTuber, has written a book and dedicated a YouTube channel to addressing these issues. In this Interview, Sean and Patke talk with Mark on how to speak with grace and truth to those connected with this movement. Listen in and be blessed.

Check out Mark Ward on YouTube Here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKRmL7BMyCeLE4KUo73RDzw

Check out Mark's book "Authorized: The Uses and Misuses of the King James Bible" Here: https://www.amazon.com/Authorized-Misuse-King-James-Bible-ebook/dp/B078WG2LHX/ref=sr_1_1?crid=GWPA02BJZ54T&keywords=authorized+mark+ward&qid=1694550489&sprefix=authorized+mark+ward%2Caps%2C163&sr=8-1 

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SPEAKER_00 0:20

Welcome back to another installment of Theologic. I'm Zach Patkey. Sean Mustion. And we are here with Mark Ward, the author of a book entitled Authorized: The Uses and Misuses of the King James Translation. He has grown up in uh in circles very similar to mine, so I'm thankful that Sean reached out to Mark, and Mark was like, sure, I'll do an interview with you. And I'm like, awesome. This is uh this is something that's really in my wheelhouse because uh it's very close to what I grew up with and what I'm familiar with in my uh in my background. So, Mark, if you wouldn't mind, I would love to have uh just an opportunity to have you introduce yourself and maybe if you want to give a plug for Logos too, feel free to do that. I'm sure you're uh uh I'm sure that uh uh your superiors would appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Yeah, I'm I'm coming, I'm recording this from the offices of Logos in Bellingham, Washington, where I live with my wife and three children. My my three children are in school today for the second time ever. They've, you know, we actually were educating them prior to this, but uh put them in a little Christian school. Yeah. I'm really just delighted to see what the Lord has done for us there. My wife is a flower farmer in our backyard, Blackburn Gardens. Um, these are the things I'm most proud of and happy about. Just they're you know, out of the abundance of the heart and the mouth speaks. As for me, I am a senior editor of digital content. Um I don't know what makes you senior when you're only 42 and incredibly still, you know, young and athletic, but um I guess I've been doing this a long time uh at Logos, the the word-by-word blog. So I solicit, edit, and write Bible study content and theology content for the Logos blog. I I do have a YouTube channel where um I talk a lot about Bible translation, and the goal is positive ultimately. Right. Uh that is to build people's trust in the many excellent English Bible translations we have and to build their understanding of why they differ when they do, and how those differences in translation philosophy, and even occasionally I'll talk about text, textual criticism, how those differences can be a benefit to Bible study. Um my overall work, I find over the years has focused a lot on exegesis, hermeneutics, translation, textual criticism. Bibliology is just my my main field. Um I do at Logos focus a lot on helping pastors use the original languages responsibly. I started a number of years ago a tongue-in-cheek organization of which I am the president and sole member called the Original Languages Safely Handled Administration, Ulsha. And I will step in, you know, when there are violations. I try to do it nicely. Um and I attend a church here in uh Mount Vernon, Washington, uh Baptist Church, where I'm a member and a regular Sunday school teacher. Uh work in the Spanish ministry, kind of all the standard stuff.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Habla español entonces. Perfect. See. Awesome. So you like no comprendo, but you like you like language. You said it right. Good job, Sean. You said it right. Sometimes people say no comprende, that means you don't understand. Right.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Although you added the classic English um closing off of the O at the end. Comprendo. Right. We we close off the O with a O, but they don't. They just stop it at the end of the O. So I'm not criticizing, I'm just trying to Magnify Mine Office. Yes, I am a language nerd. I really love languages.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

A man after my own heart. That's uh that's a lot of fun. I went to Peru and I learned Spanish, so uh as a part of my schooling. So that was a lot of fun. Um yeah, so uh tell talk a little bit about your your YouTube channel. I've checked out uh it was actually before we even reached out, my wife and I caught you online, and I really appreciated your video on the idea of the slippery slope, uh, on how we can assume that there's a slippery slope only in one direction, but there's actually a slippery slope in two directions. How long have you been doing YouTube? And uh tell me talk a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

COVID is really what launched me into YouTube. I always wanted to do it. I was a graphic design major back in college before the Lord called me into Bible teaching, and I still do graphic design on the side. I actually own a small graphic design business, just doing church websites and stuff. Um that has taken a back back seat to YouTube, actually, but I still do it. I just love the visual arts, and I thought it'd be really fun to make nice videos. And I had a message to get out uh about the King James Version. Um really, I felt like the message of my book needed to get out to more people. And frankly, I just knew that meant it had to be free. Um, but being the uh very much middle class individual that I am, I wasn't totally sure I could manage purchasing all the necessary equipment. So in God's providence, when COVID hit, um, I was planning the second season of the Bible study magazine podcast. I was the editor of Bible Study Magazine for the last two years of its existence before New Management decided to end the magazine, which is totally fine. I'm not bitter, it's it's horrible. But I ran I ran a podcast, and uh my boss at the time in God's Providence was uh a PhD in theology from Aberdeen, who was also a great friend and strong evangelical Christian and a total nerd about video. So um he got me hooked up with a Canon M50 and uh a road video mic go and um a basic light, and I was off to the races so I could record these uh these podcasts in video format since everybody was working from home. But then I just said to him, Would you mind if I used this equipment, you know, for my own personal use on starting a YouTube channel? And he was all for it. And since then I've collected my own equipment, um, but faith life slash logos, it's now logos, uh, they have been very supportive of me doing this. It's it works well with what they're doing. And again, the point is just to help people understand why Bible translations differ and to increase their confidence in the good English Bible translations that we have. And of course, that does mean pushing back against something, and that's King James only ism. I came to feel that there was more work that needed to be done there.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

Yeah. Well, good. And that's a great segue into the topic on hand concerning King James only ism. I wanted to start by asking a question here, uh uh just to maybe have you address what if somebody's listening and they're King James only and they have an issue with what you're saying, is this about attacking the King James at all? Is there some problem with the King James that uh uh that we have to that we have to have this conversation?

SPEAKER_01 7:17

Mere moments before I hooked up to the you know internet uh to uh get in the conversation with you guys. I uh was looking over the comments on my most recent video, which as of this moment just re-released a little over an hour ago. And there is a King James Bible defender in Australia who is a little bit of a sandballot or tobiah on my channel, we'll post little things. And uh and he said, Clearly, you hate the King James Version, something like that. I get this message all the time. And I just categorically deny it. I really love the King James. I'm going through the King James again this year in my Bible reading. I'm actually listening on audio through this year. I'm in 2nd Samuel at the moment. Um, I grew up on the King James, it still is the source of most of my scripture memory work. Um, that is all the verses that come to mind when I'm searching in logos, they uh they come to me pretty much in King James English. So I don't hate the King James, but what I always want to say back to those folks is brother, sister, usually it's a brother. Yeah, um, why don't you use Wycliffe's Bible? I mean, it was the original English Bible, the first full translation of the Bible in existence. Well, and and if they gave me a an honest, clear answer, I would hope that the answer would be, well, I can't really understand it anymore. It's not in my English.

SPEAKER_00 8:41

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

And I would say to them, Do you hate Wycliffe's Bible? And they would say, Well, no, I don't hate it. Um, do you hate Tyndale's Bible and his odd spelling conventions, where if you actually read it, a word like then, T-H-E-N, will will say, it'll actually say T H E with a little tilde above the E. And uh it's just difficult. You know, it's just like walking on a really old sidewalk and you're stumbling all the time. Right. And or to say that that's antiquated English is to say is to say nothing. It's not to make a judgment, a negative judgment of Tyndale or of his translation. I can say that the King James is an excellent Bible translation, or rather was an excellent Bible translation into an English that nobody alive fully speaks anymore.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

Right.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

Um that's my point. And I ha I have to think that people who say, well, Mark Worges hates the King James, um, they are not being charitable toward my viewpoint. At least try to understand where I'm coming from before dismissing me that way.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

Yeah, we were going to name our podcast at one time Burning Straw Men because uh uh it we we don't show charity towards somebody by misrepresenting their view, and we don't win an argument either if we misrepresent the other person's view. You end up just unfortunately looking uh uh looking rather ridiculous at times when when we when we do that. So uh concerning your book, authorize the uses and misuses of the King James, um, so why write a book about it?

SPEAKER_01 10:11

I grew up in King James Onlyism. Actually, interestingly, this is the first interview I think I've done since my most recent visit to that church, and I hadn't been back in 20 years. I had not been back to my old home church from high school, King James Only Church, for a service in 25 years. So it would have been, you know, August of 1997 that I last attended a Sunday service there before I went off to college. And I had a wonderful time visiting. I saw my old Christian school teachers that I've kept up with, they're really wonderful people. And um, that is just not empty flattery, it's just true. They were very gracious to me back both then and now. They were glad to see me, um, despite knowing that my work has taken me in an anti-King James only direction. And we had some conversations about that. It was a really actually wonderful time. But because I had such a positive time, I'm just not bitter. I I don't have anything to be bitter about. Right. Um, I've come to disagree over the King James onlyism that was taught there, but I actually don't I don't I here's here's what happened. I I came to realize, okay, I was wrong. My pastor was wrong. A bunch of us were all wrong about this. But if I was wrong, did I sin? Did I sin against God to be wrong? And I felt, well, this doctrine does cause division and it does b involve believing untruths, but a lot of those untruths are so complex that it would have been really difficult for me to check them out. Uh now that I train pastors, I'm aware that my own pastor at the time, a faithful man who you know pastored that church for decades and never had a scandal that I'm aware of and is now retired but isn't still involved in itinerant ministry. Um, I realized that he himself was not given in his education, his four-year Bible college education, the ability to check out some of the ideas that he was repeating to us. Now, he still bears some responsibility for that, but not the kind that I would bear, because I have been given the opportunity to learn Greek and Hebrew. I know better. I can check these things out. So I came to feel, well, on the complicated matters of New Testament textual criticism, which were a major plank of his argument against modern versions, at age 14 and 15, when he was preaching his sermons on King James onlyism, I don't think you can hold me morally responsible for, you know, believing my pastor who was otherwise trustworthy. So in what did my error consist? I came to feel it had nothing to do with the complex matters of New Testament textual criticism of Greek or Hebrew, because I could not, I could I can't be held morally responsible for my views on those things, because I couldn't check them out, not at the time. Instead, it came, it it was 1 Corinthians 14's teaching that edification requires intelligibility. And I should have known, even at 14 and 15, you know, this isn't quite right. Um, we're insisting on the exclusive use of a translation that includes many words that I know I don't know. Like at the very least, it we have to be open to the idea that those words could be revised. And that was a point of division, I'm betting, in that church, um, and to this day within King James onlyism. So I've I figured we need a book needs to be written that focuses completely on English readability. On on that case, uh the other major plank of that, and I'll be quick about this, is a good professor of mine who actually one of you said you're a Bible works user, Randy Leedy, who did the New Testament Greek diagrams for Bible works that are actually now in Logos. Uh I helped get them in Logos as soon as Bible Works died.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

I've used those, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Rest in peace, Bible Works. I always loved it. But um anyway, Randy Leedy just dropped a comment in class one time in Greek, and he was my favorite professor. He said, you know, if you prefer the Textus Receptus, fine. You know, make or use or make a translation of it into contemporary English. And, you know, that had never occurred to me. And now I've come to realize over the years the New King James already did that, and more recently the modern English version did that. So people who say the text is the issue. We have to have a pure text. We can't have quote unquote missing verses, you know. I just don't want to get into all that with them. That's not the issue. If they're unwilling to use the New King James, then the text is not the issue for them. So why should we be even arguing about it? The Bible doesn't even tell me how to do textual criticism. If they want to use the TR, fine. Yeah. That's a tertiary issue to me. If it's a primary to them, okay. But the Bible doesn't actually tell them what text to use. It does tell them to make or use a translation of that text into fully intelligible contemporary English.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

I love that. I love that. That's so good. I was just uh I was just reading a doctrinal statement that included the King James translation in it. Um, and it is interesting how contradictory it is on the one end, right? Because it says that you you know we we prefer the Hebrew Masoretic text and the Textus Receptus, and then they go on to say that the King James is the is the uh authorized, is the God's preserved word in modern English. And unfortunately, those two things can't okay, so why, how can you hold on to this and then not hold on to this? It just it just immediately contradicts uh in that conversation. So what are some common arguments toward King James only ism and how do we, you know, lovingly address uh some of these things in order that we might have intelligibility and that which will edify?

SPEAKER_01 15:35

I I do spend a fair amount of time on podcasts like this one. I always enjoy my time, and one of the reasons that I devote this time to it is that I feel like there is a central uh uh accessible message that I need to get out and I need to take whatever opportunity I can to get it out. And I need to get it out, you know, even to lay people who don't feel like they really are involved in the debate, because I think they are often on the front lines. Pastors surely are too, but you know, uh lay people in churches, you know, engineers and homemakers and Christian school teachers, they end up having these arguments. And I want to get this this little thought out to them, and I pray they'll listen to me and remember this. I think the key here is actually to take that major argument of King James onlyism, that is the text is the issue, where they say we've got to have the Texas Receptus, we can't have missing verses, quote unquote, um, that the modern versions are based on corrupted texts. Take all of that, set it completely aside. And if they want to bring it up again, and they will, because that's what they always do, but these brothers and sisters in Christ of mine, when I talk about readability, they will not stay on the topic. But I won't get on their topic. I actually made a vow. I've I've made three vows in my life. I vowed to love my wife with the true love of delight. I vowed never to vote for pro-abortion politician. I don't say every Christian has to do that, but I made that vow. And I vowed, and very seriously, I vowed. I will never debate New Testament textual criticism or any textual criticism with anyone who insists on the exclusive use of the King James Version. I would invite everyone else to join me in that. Anytime they bring up text, deflect that by saying, hey, brother, sister, you could use the New King James Version or the Modern English Version or the Simplified King James Version or any of a number of other options that are based on the Texas Receptus in the Masoretic text. We don't have to talk about that. Let's talk about English readability. You know, what they'll say is commonly, I'll just give maybe one or two more common arguments from them. I hear all the time from them. Well, you just need to study to show yourself approved. Yeah, there are some difficult words in the King James Version, but 2 Timothy 2.15, study to show thyself approved unto God a workman that needeth not to be ashamed. And that is the greatest irony that they would respond to me this way, because I say, Brother, do you know what study meant in 1611? That word study in that context, and this is confirmed by the Greek word that's being translated there, it did not mean hit the books, you know, engage in academic research, make sure to use a dictionary. It just meant be diligent. And um a big emphasis of my work is to hand uh a tool to people, again, even lay people who must have these arguments with their brothers-in-law or, you know, sometimes people online, maybe uh with a kid in their class, I don't know, uh, to say it's not just that there are dead words in the King James, words we know we don't know, you know, besin, chambering, emorat. If you encounter those words, uh beeves, bold, berate, you can go look them up in a dictionary. I don't deny that.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Concupiscence. That's another thing.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Concupiscence, right. I, you know, I I tend that is still like a word in technical theology, especially in Roman Catholicism. But when you encounter any difficult or archaic word that you know you don't know, you can go look it up. Um I don't deny that. And and that you're gonna have to look up words even in modern translations sometimes, if they're difficult, not usually because they're archaic. But what if there are words you don't know you don't know? What if there are words that over time have changed in meaning in such a way that they seem to work in context, but actually you're misunderstanding what the King James translators intended. And I've never really gotten an answer to the question, how are you supposed to look up words you don't know, you don't know? I guess the one answer I did get was from a guy who said, Well, you just have to look up all the words. And I'm thinking, if you have to look up all the words, then why bother translating in the first place, brother? Why not just look up all the Greek and Hebrew words, then we can have done with all this? Um, I call these false friends. And false friends are the sort of central, you know, idea of my um opposition to King James onlyism. I don't think it's right to insist on the exclusive use of any translation, let alone one that includes dozens. I'm up to 75 now on my YouTube channel. I have a series called 50 false friends, and I'm up to 75. Uh words where um you don't realize your misunderstandings. Sometimes they're minor, sometimes they're more significant, but in every case they trip up a significant number, and sometimes nearly all uh readers of the King James today.

SPEAKER_02 20:11

I'd be curious to see that list because my wife and I, when we read in the evenings, a little background on my wife, she grew up in a King James church. I wouldn't call it a King James only, but definitely strongly preferred. And so at home and at church, that was the Bible of reading. And so um it was since we got married, we generally use the ESV, but my wife still kind of thinks in King James. And there have been so many times, especially in the book of James, we'll be reading, and there'll be a different wording. And sometimes you can kind of tell the overlap between the ESV's um wording and the King James, but other times at a surface level, it seems like either it's contradicting or one is way off in right field and one's way off in left field. And so we've had a lot of conversations as we've read through, okay, how how do these two verses connect when it sounds so different? So I'd I'd be curious uh to see that that list of, as you call, um not friends, but uh false friends. False friends.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Yeah, I think a lot of people they simply and I this is understandable. You know, not most most Christians are not called to study Greek and Hebrew, and that's okay. I'm convinced that's okay. Um so that does mean, however, that they don't know what to do when they encounter these differences. I am trying to work to provide the necessary categories. So it is true that there are textual differences in the underlying text between the ESV and the King James. That could be a reason. Translation philosophy could be a reason. You know, they actually have very similar translation philosophies, I would say essentially identical, but they still might make end up making different judgments in a given place. You know, idioms are a classic example. Should we translate this literally? I gave you cleanness of teeth in all your cities, or should we, you know, give the overall meaning, figuring that that metaphor, you know, is is just too opaque, too difficult. Um that's that's up to the judge. Judgment of translators, and it has been for many centuries, no matter what you're translating, Bible or Homer or whatever. But then there's also this major area of uh this major category that causes differences between the King James and modern translations that I think most Christians, English-speaking Christians, are simply not aware of, and that is language change. They're aware of some of the most obvious elements of language change, but they don't know how subtle language change can be. I had a pastor in Washington state, I quoted him and authorized. This was so profound to me. He said, you know, in the past, when I've encountered difficulties in the English of my translation, I haven't considered the problem to be with the Bible, but with myself, and I just have to go study more. And I thought, I get what you're saying, and I and I I admire that desire to study. But if you don't understand that the King James is not the Bible, as in, you can't totally equate the two, and therefore, you know, if you do that, then you're gonna tend to say that, well, all Engl all language change is wrong, and we need to continue to speak the way the King James does. I've never run into what King James only is who actually preaches in Elizabethan English. You know, they don't take this all the way. Um, but he needed, he just didn't see that language change is a major reason for why he was having difficulties, and it's a major unnecessary reason because it really is not difficult to validate well, what what's the way we would say this today? Um, and I I find that that's uh helpful and you know hopefully nerdy and stimulating to people.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

Yeah. Just thinking through some specifics, when you normally encounter uh uh talking to somebody on the King James issue, are there specific passages of scripture that they bring up that they would say, well, this is a corrupted um and don't and if this just goes against your vow, and we don't we don't have to engage in this one. No, no. But they they see this text, and and how do you explain like the any texts that come to mind or any any that come to mind on that regard?

SPEAKER_01 24:00

You know, um I wouldn't I wouldn't have that conversation with someone who's still insisting on the exclusive use of the King James. I would deflect it. John 7, 8 is one of those, and and 10 I think is an example where Jesus says, I go not up to this feast, and then he goes. Um I get that. I I understand why they would object. Um, but I just say make or use a translation of whatever text you prefer into fully intelligible contemporary English. And I said that for about two years on my channel, and then I did start getting messages from young pastors coming from the King James only world who's who were saying to me, Hey, I'm following you as far as the English readability thing goes, but I'm still really troubled about what to do with text. I don't know, I don't understand. And so I started to allow myself to talk about this issue some on the channel. And I think you if you start at those difficult passages, um that that's gonna be it's gonna be very difficult to make progress. You really have to zoom back out and talk about the whole history of the manuscript tradition of the Greek New Testament and of the Hebrew Bible. Um, and once people become comfortable with the idea, and I recognize why this is difficult, but it's why I'm gentle on my channel. Um, I'm trying to lead gently those who are with young. Um I'm trying to preserve the consciences and faith that that is precious to Christ of his sheep. Um, God gave us a difficult situation in which the the manuscripts of the Greek New Testament do not all perfectly agree. And I can be what I call an industrial strength biblical inerrantist and yet acknowledge I don't have 100% certainty about the proper reading in every case. One of the big things that I've tried to do to make this easier, you know, and more palatable, you know, because a lot of people say, well, just don't talk about this with lay people. And I but I think it was refusing to talk about it that ended up giving us the divisive doctrines of King James Omiism. I think we have to teach them. Um and I've done it in churches, and it hasn't always been easy. And people have asked awkward questions and a little bit of you know difficulty was created in Sunday school. I won't forget it. But I created a project called the King James Parallel Bible, along with a group of volunteers. Um, as actually, as of yesterday, I was filling out more work on a proposal to have it put into print. It looks like that's a real possibility. Um, but I'm trying to put on display in English all of the differences, the textual variants between the main two text uh editions of the text of the Greek New Testament. And it gets complex, but basically we're talking about the Textus Receptus and the critical text. And I found that even I myself, who have have looked at many of these examples, when I actually looked at every single one, I looked at every single translatable difference and many untranslatable differences between the two texts. Um, my faith was encouraged and strengthened because over and over again I'm noting these differences are incredibly minor. They make actually no difference to the meaning. And then what I noticed, and if you look at the website, I this is what I'm most excited about. I just put out a YouTube video about it finally. What really jumps out at you is not the differences between the two texts, but the similarities. And King James Onlyists have been saying since Dean Bergen, I was just reading it last night before I fell asleep, the revision revised. He talks about the critical text being vastly different. And uh, I've had uh leading King James Onlyists say that the two texts are completely different or radically different. And I think any lay person hearing that, as I did as a 14 or 15-year-old, will think, oh no, wow, this is terrible. But if you actually go look, I think you'll have to say, well, these are not vastly different. They're vastly similar with minor differences. And uh I'm the I tried to get TR, you know, Texas Receptus defenders to be, you know, working with me on this, and I I just could not. I finally got one guy who is a moderate TR defender who is willing to do a little work for me. They were not interested in helping me make this site. They if the if they are right that the differences are massive and radical, then they ought to ought to have been thrilled by my idea, but they weren't, and they haven't promoted the work. They've just worked to discredit it, unfortunately. But we we wrote what was true, and you can see for yourself the differences and more importantly the similarities at kjvparallelbible.org.

SPEAKER_02 28:28

So much of it is really not that significant of a difference. They are there, but it doesn't change the meaning of the verse or the passage. Um but on the flip side of that, I remember hearing someone sit once talk about how for those places where it does get a little tricky, you're trying to make sure that you are navigating the waters in such a way as to come to the right conclusion, because maybe the the differences are so significant in some places where you do have something of a noticeable difference. And the pastor said that that when some people say, Well, we shouldn't just we shouldn't talk about this at all with people in the pew, just kind of leave it out. The professors at the colleges, the these the secular universities, they know about this stuff. And they're gonna be talking to our students, they're gonna be talking, I mean, even now to our high school students, um, about these things to discredit um the Bible and try to weaken the faith of our students. So if we don't speak about it, somebody else is ready and very educated to speak into that. And so we eventually have to come to a point of do we settle for comfort and discard truth or venture into okay, what is the truth of this situation? And it may be uncomfortable to walk in there, but let's go in pursuit of the truth and let's let the chips fall where they may.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

Yeah, I I did this with my teen Sunday school class at church, and uh one of the girls comes from a home that is it kind of had some sensitivities about this issue, but they were good friends of ours. If they heard this podcast, they do I'm talking about them. I really love and respect them, and we've had some nice discussions about this. But that girl, um, she she remembered what I said and brought it up to me like two years later. And it was a help to her. Uh, I really think what you're saying is true. And if you want to say, well, boy, that but this is so awkward. You you know, you're gonna harm the faith of some. I just say, well, we're gonna save the faith of others, and and actually, kind of more importantly, this is the situation God gave us. So I think it is has to be healthy to say what's true. Um, you know, you don't you don't always tell a four-year-old the facts of life, right? Um but by the time they're 18, even 16, I would think, you know, my kids are aware of textual variants at the level that's appropriate to them. But I don't think it has to be difficult. I and I think if the pastor expresses great faith and confidence in scripture and will use some of the tools that people like me have made, uh, I don't think it has to be difficult.

SPEAKER_02 31:02

One question, again, with this general topic, um, is more of a question to you about a question. Um, I've heard some people pose this idea when somebody that's a king in favor of the King James will say something along the lines of um the newer translations have left out Bible verses, they've pulled things out of scripture, or they've added, whichever way it might be going, um, to then in turn pose the question have the modern translations added or taken away, or was it the King James that missed it, that missed this word, or added something that shouldn't have been there? So again, kind of like the ending on Mark, where most of the translations that are being made more recently have some kind of bracket or some kind of large note saying chances are the end of Mark wasn't there in the original. Um so that that general question about, well, did the King James actually mess up, is that a fair question to throw back at someone? Or is it, I mean, maybe the better question is, is it a reasonable question? Does it really get you anywhere in your opinion?

SPEAKER_01 32:05

No, it absolutely does. And I used basically that same argument in a recent video, is the NIV missing verses? The way I put it was before you go on a tear about this, posting about it on Facebook, at least be aware that the vast, vast majority of strong inerrantist, trinitarian, evangelical Christians, conservatives, you know, who believe the Bible and can read Greek, actually regard the King James to contain added verses, not that they don't regard the modern translations to have omitted some. Nonetheless, I would still want to say anybody who's bringing this up to me, more than likely, is insisting on the exclusive use of the King James Version. And so I'm gonna deflect and I'm gonna say I don't want to argue about this with you because you could use the New King James Version. Um they they kind of have to, to my mind, earn the right to have this discussion with me. They have to earn my trust some by acknowledging, at least just acknowledging that the King James Version could be updated into contemporary English, that would not necessarily be wrong. If they'll go at least that far, I'm I'm more willing to engage in discussion with them. But in my experience, that idea that the, you know, the NIV is missing verses is used as a gotcha and there's no real understanding of the issues behind it, except for among you know the elites of the King James-only movement. They understand what they're saying. Uh, but the vast majority of people don't understand. And and so why should I get involved in a debate uh over Greek New Testament manuscripts with somebody who can't read a single letter of Greek? You know, uh actually, I've always felt like Proverbs 18, 13, as it says, whoever answers a matter before he hears it, it's a folly and shame to them. I'm actually inviting this brother in Christ to commit folly and to look ashamed, even though he doesn't realize it, by letting him argue about something that I know he doesn't understand at all. You know who else said this actually? Just last night, I was reading Revision Revised by Dean Bergen. In my mind, he's the original King James Onlyist. Um he doesn't, his opinions don't exactly line up with where modern King James Onlyism is, but the tone and the basic argument strategy is all there. His writing is m is excellent. He's a very, very intelligent guy. Uh I feel like King James Onlyism has just kind of gone downhill from that uh high point back in the 1880s. But he said the same thing. He said people, lay people cannot understand these complex matters of Greek and New Testament textual criticism. So it isn't just the uh pointy-headed academic elite of today who are noting that the the fine details are beyond the grasp of most people. Um it was actually, in my mind, the original King James-onlyist.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

Very good. One of the things I appreciate about your repro your approach here is you're saving yourself in a sense, because I can imagine I've been I've been that person who's decided to debate somebody online and uh it just consumes you. You know, your your wife is like, what's wrong? And you're like, you know. But but what you can do, what you do with your approach in engaging folks here, which is really part of our podcast, is how to disagree agreeably, is to make sure that you actually can um have this conversation if somebody has earned the right, in a sense, not like they're earning your favor, but just more like they're demonstrating a level of of of listenability that they'll pay attention to what you're saying. Right. That will save you in the long run, but also actually make sure that what you're saying is edifying to them because it's not really going to edify to make them more generate more heat than light in their lives because they're not ready to hear it.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

Yeah, I want to say right away, there have been King James only that I've run into who are very gracious people and are really able to have a conversation with me, and I will go far with them. Uh, but yeah, it it feels like about half the work of YouTube, in in my setting anyway, is praying and deciding and learning to discern. Is this commenter someone for whom a soft answer will turn away wrath? Or is it somebody that um that the Bible would tell me, answer not a fool according to his folly, lest he lest thou be like unto him? You know, it really is the Proverbs 26, 4 and 5 thing where frequently I just don't answer because I feel like I would be brought down to the level that they're using. Um but but then there are it's so encouraging to see that even some people who disagree can do so agreeably. And that's that tends to be where I want to focus my time on people who are actually willing to listen.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

So uh as we're kind of coming toward the end of our interview here, any any resources if if you're somebody who is listening in and you've been impacted by King James Onlyism, and uh what Mark is saying here is encouraging and resonating to you. Uh any resources you might refer them to, we got we have your YouTube channel, it's Mark Ward, just your name. You we also have his book authorized. We also have uh even the resource that he recommended. What was that resource again?

SPEAKER_01 37:15

The KJV Parallel Bible.

SPEAKER_00 37:17

KJV Parallel Bible. You can check that one out. Any other resources you might recommend to a listener who uh might find this uh helpful for them?

SPEAKER_01 37:25

It depends on how deep you want to go. I have a post on my blog, which uh doesn't get much of my energies these days. Those energies go to YouTube, but um, it the post is titled something like, you know, answering a question I get all the time. And I try to give both sides, like who are my top recommended writers and books and articles, and actually a couple of courses, online courses for the pro-Texas Receptus side. So for example, E. F. Hills, the King James Version defended. Uh I think he's just one of the top, you know, defenders of the Texas Receptus, probably the top, um, maybe up there with Dean Bergen. Uh but uh then, of course, uh I give recommended resources for the critical tech side, which is my side. Um I I think that uh James White has some valuable stuff to say. D.A. Carson has a late 1970s book that's certainly still worth reading. Carson is just a delight and he's utterly brilliant and he knows uh so much. Uh another great resource is actually Tim Berg, who's a great friend of mine. We've actually done a lot together now. Uh, I made him a website called kjbhistory.com because his content was so excellent, but he had it on this weird, like, I don't know, Joomla system or something where you couldn't actually search for anything. So I said, you've got to use WordPress. And maybe about four or five years ago I got him a website, and kjbhistory.com will go into great detail about the history of the King James. It's very interesting. He's a very, very good scholar. He works really hard to get the facts straight. Uh, he comes from a a rapidly, I mean, extremist, more extreme than Peter Ruckman, King James Only Home, and has come out a gracious, fervent Christian. And I'm I just am I'm honored to have him as my brother and friend. That's another great resource, kjbhistory.com. But if you like nerdy, redheaded, bible-oriented YouTubers, you know, I don't know who else to recommend but my own channel.

SPEAKER_02 39:30

Well, I've got to I want to throw another question your way. And so if there is someone out there, maybe this is kind of like the the final straw where they're like, okay, I've I've been raised with the King James and only the King James, whether that's a King James onlyist or just strongly preferred or whichever, but they're thinking, okay, um, I think I want to go ahead and kind of wade into the waters of a different um English translation, but where do I start? There are so many. Do I read the ESV? Do I read the NASB? The LSB just came out. Do I read what do I what do I do? How do you uh navigate the question of which translation do I use if I'm not going to use the King James? There's so many. And then with that, what advantages are there to someone that's willing to open up to there being more than just one English translation to read? What advantages do we have in being able to, in good conscience, read the NIV, the NLT, the ESV, etc.?

SPEAKER_01 40:22

Yeah. Well, I don't tell anybody to stop reading the King James. My my formal, you know, call is for the King James to stop be stop being the institutional standard in churches and schools and mission boards and publishing houses. I don't think, I just don't think you should make anybody read the King James Version because it's no longer fully intelligible. Uh that's my case, 1 Corinthians 14. Um, but in the study, like I use the King James all the time. You want to know what my top Bible is in logos? It's the King James. It's because I grew up on it and it's just easiest for me to continue to use it as the top Bible. I don't, I, I don't do most of my reading or haven't done most of my reading in the last 25 years in the King James, but I'm going through it again, like I said. So I'm practicing what I preach. I've not gotten rid of the King James Version. I'm not telling anybody to do that. I think then it don't think of yourself as losing something. Think of yourself as gaining something while retaining everything you already had. Uh and what do you want to gain? Which Bible translation should you use? Well, I have a video and it's actually a chapter in my book, which Bible translation is best? And my answer is all the good ones. I do define the good ones as evangelical ones. So um I'm not a Catholic. I openly oppose Catholic doctrine. I'm not a mainline. Or are you a Jehovah's Witness? No, right?

SPEAKER_00 41:46

Not a Jehovah's Witness either.

SPEAKER_01 41:48

Nope, nope, yep. And uh I I so I trust the scholars who put together the evangelical versions. And you just listed a bunch of them. Um you can easily watch videos of mine where I talk through various translations. In fact, I have a series uh where I have a it's called the Best Bible Translation series. I have one video, the NIV is the best Bible translation. I have another video, the ESV is the best Bible translation, and the NASB is the best Bible translation, and I always follow that up with for certain people in certain circumstances. So I think it's good to learn what are those certain people and what are those certain circumstances, what are the strengths of any given Bible translation. You know, only the Bible is worth this kind of attention. I don't read multiple translations of the Iliad and the Odyssey because I just don't care about it that much, like I care about the Bible. Um but there are values to a more literal approach, and uh I talk about those on my channel. There are values to a more dynamic or functional approach, and I talk about those on my channel. You don't have to choose. Uh I would tend to say stick with the evangelical ones. Um, but and I would also tend to say start with the formal. But if you've already been raised on the King James, you're not gonna get hurt. You're only gonna be helped if you read a less formal translation like the NIV. Uh I I'm I'm hesitant to really pick anything for anybody. In fact, I nearly said to you, what's the method to pick? Well, you go to the Christian bookstore, all right, and you you pick a Bible off the shelf and then you flip it. And if it lands heads, you read it.

SPEAKER_00 43:17

If it lands tails, you read it. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 43:20

Um there there are a couple mainline and you know weirder translations there, like the passion translation, I guess, is showing up at Christian bookstores. And no, I don't recommend that. But um by and large, mostly the stuff that's made it that far through all the vetting to get to your Christian bookstore. Just read it. Don't worry about it. I all of the terrible things that you know King James defenders have predicted are going to happen if people read these corrupted translations. I just don't see any evidence that any of it has happened. So I I just want to re uh release people's consciences from the burden there. God doesn't God hasn't anointed one Bible translation, so you've got to have freedom to study the issue for yourself and read good ones.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

Yeah, I appreciate what you said about the person who needs to understand their own situation, their own context as to what that what's going to be the best pick. And I say I appreciate that because I listened to an interview that you did with Greenville Seminary in South Carolina. And in there you share a story about how you're at a church. I think you said generally this the the English, the use of English or reading was not fantastic. And you end up using NIRV. Yes. And as I heard you say that, I was encouraged because um I work at a church where there are many immigrants, and for many, English is not not the first language. So a few years ago, we moved, I don't preach from the NIRV, but we make them available as essentially gifts to people that are there. And at first it was a bit of a, I was kind of at odds with it. I was like, I don't know if I can do this in good conscience, but um in further reading and then even just hearing you in that interview mention that, I was like, okay, that that was definitely just kind of one more thumbs up of okay, that's a a translation that's kind of unique, but in a s situation where someone is very, very minimal in their use of English, it's proven to be quite beneficial in our in our context.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

I've had a similar occasion on my own when I was down in Peru, actually, a gentleman who was learning English wanted to read the Bible in English, but he couldn't understand the King James, so what I had was an NIV, and so I gave him an NIV in order that they would under he would understand his Bible and maybe come to know Christ, because he wasn't a believer at the time. So you can be saved through other translations. Uh you don't need to be afraid of that, and you don't need to uh uh you don't need to have that bother your conscience. I'm encouraged by 1 John, uh, where John says God is greater than your conscience. In some ways, our consciences can be strictly held to something, but the best thing we can do is let the word of God inform our consciences. As you say, 1 Corinthians 14, uh edification needs to be intelligible. And if it's intelligible, we understand it. And if we understand it, we can start uh walking in a uh in a sometimes less strict direction and be encouraged by that. Mark, thank you so much for joining us. Um I don't know if there's anything else you want to add at the end or any any other plugs you'd like to bring out. I mean, we got Logos as well. Encourage you to, if you uh if you're a Bible nerd and a language nerd, look into that or a pastor. Uh anything else you'd you want to mention before we close?

SPEAKER_01 46:18

I think I've already said enough and probably too much. Thank you for the opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 46:22

Hey, you're you're welcome. Thank you so much for being a part of uh Theologic. Look forward to uh to catching you maybe some other time. Thanks again, but I think that's a good idea.