Kristin T. Lee: We Mend with Gold

20 Minute Takes is back with a new episode featuring Kristin Lee. She's the author of the recently released book: We Mend with Gold: An Immigrant Daughter's Reckoning with American Christianity. In this conversation, she and Nikki Toyama-Szeto discuss the experience of Asian American Christians and how an exilic spirituality informs how Asian American communities can show up today.

You can learn more about Kristin and her work here.
Follow her on Instagram or Threads.

20 Minute Takes is a production of Christians for Social Action
Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto 
Produced by David de Leon
Editing and Mixing by Wiloza Media
Music by Andre Henry

Transcript

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20MT (SE08) - Kristin Lee

[Nikki]
Hello, my name is Nikki Toyama-Szeto and I'm the Executive Director of Christians for Social Action and your host for today's episode of 20-Minute Takes. Today I talk with Kristin Lee. She's the author of “Women with Gold”.

Our conversation covers her experience growing up in an Asian-American immigrant family and how that has formed her theology: a family of God theology. And how it is that we can navigate today in the realities that we're facing. Join us for this episode of 20-Minute Takes. 

[Nikki]
Kristin, thank you so much for joining us on this episode of 20-Minute Takes.

[Kristin]
Thanks for having me, Nikki.

[Nikki]
Okay, I totally wish that we were doing this in some fun cafe in a neighborhood around the corner from you, but if we did, and if I happen to, very rarely do I get there early, but if I happen to get there early, what would be the drink that your friends would have sitting on the table ready for you when you arrive?

[Kristin]
Oh, I love this question because I don't actually get out to cafes much, but if I were to indulge in a cafe drink, it would be a matcha strawberry latte.

[Nikki]
Matcha strawberry. I have not heard that connection. What's the thing about that combination?

[Kristin]
I love the slight bitterness of the matcha compared with the sweetness of the strawberry, and it's also beautiful, the green and the red.

[Nikki]
I was going to say, what color is it? Is it one of those layers?

[Kristin]
Layers, yeah.

[Nikki]
Oh, beautiful. Okay, I'm going to have to look for that the next time that I go out and about. Well, I have really appreciated your voice, your point of view, and your perspective, and one of the things that we want to talk about is your book, We Mend with Gold, which I have here and have had kind of within arm's reach for the last couple of weeks.

One of the things that you say in your book is, I want to console the disconsolate and discomfort the comfortable. Can you say more about what it was you were hoping would be true in this book?

[Kristin]
Yeah, I think one of the things, one of the main motivations for writing the book is because I went through a long season of just feeling like I didn't belong in the church and feeling very desolate in that loneliness, and so when I say I want to console the disconsolate, one of the primary things I want to do with the book is to show people that some of the things that we've thought of as Christian teaching have actually been warped doctrine and not necessarily things that should be barriers between us and God, and so I want to affirm that there is a place for you, all of you, in the church. And then also in terms of discomforting the comfortable, I think that for those of us with privilege like me, I want us to be a little bit uncomfortable with that privilege and think about what it means to use that for God's gospel and the kingdom rather than for our own selfish means.

[Nikki]
That's really helpful. Who would you say is the audience for Women with Gold?

[Kristin]
I had in mind Asian Americans who had grown up in the church but were somewhat uncomfortable with some of the directions that American Christianity has gone in recent decades, and so they might feel like they have one foot out the door of the church, they might have already left, or they sit in pews but are sometimes uncomfortable with what gets preached, so that was one of my primary audiences, but I really do hope that non-Asians will take a chance on the book because I learn so much when I read from people outside of my own cultural background, and so I really hope others will read it too.

[Nikki]
Absolutely. I think one of the things that you talk about is the influence of American evangelical Christianity on Asian Americans and how your theological frame has been graciously and generously expanded over time. Why do you think it is that evangelical Christianity has played such a role in shaping huge swaths of Asian American immigrant communities?

[Kristin]
I think it has a lot to do with how our ancestors came to faith, some of them back in our home countries through missionary efforts, or after our ancestors came here or our parents came here, a lot of them converted to Christianity in evangelical-type spaces, and so that's why. We kind of unthinkingly, perhaps, replicate the theology of how we came to faith, and so, and we want to do, you know, I think it's a very natural impulse to want to be a quote unquote good Christian, and so we want to follow those frameworks to the T, or even better, and replicate that, but I think we need to at least interrogate that a little bit and say, does this fit us and our culture and is everything that we've been sold by American evangelicals how we want to follow Jesus?

[Nikki]
I think one of the things I appreciate is the way that you talk about Asian American theology as this idea of family of God. Can you talk a bit more about why that framing? Yes.

[Kristin]
So, two reasons. One is because I think family is just such a natural concept that Asian Americans fundamentally grasp intuitively as being such a strong part of our lives. Like, whenever I talk with my Asian American peers, family comes up when we get to the real conversation, like whether that's our siblings or children or parents or grandparents.

There's always so much to dig into with family, and family is what forms us, so I think that it can be a powerful concept for us to harness if we think about God's family and how we can be family to one another and expand that outside of just a biological family. So, I really wanted to prod not just Asian American Christians, but all Christians to embrace the concept of us being a part of God's family and seeing others not as other, but as siblings, and so there's this specificity to Asian and Asian Americans with family, but also a universality because everyone can understand that family is fundamental.

[Nikki]
Yeah, no, I appreciate that because I do think there is a little bit of a... I've noticed it in my own self and in some of the family groups that I'm a part of, that there does become this line that you draw around family. Like, are you sort of this in and out kind of a thing, and I think there's a way that you're pushing us to expand who it is that we're identifying as family.

And so, it brings up interesting ideas about solidarity and about crossing differences. Can you speak more about that? Like, maybe are there things either culturally or in our common social experience that might make that a hard or an uncomfortable call or invitation?

And maybe also what is great about Asian Americans jumping in on that? Are there ways that you're like, no, no, no, we were built for this? Like, this is the freeway we drive fast on.

[Kristin]
I love that. So, I see both. So, I think one of the things that makes it natural for us to be able to embrace solidarity with people who aren't like us is that we occupy a pretty liminal space in the American racial imagination.

And so, this in-between place that we're in, I think we can serve as natural bridge builders and peacemakers and have empathy for all different kinds of people. But I think one of the barriers to embracing greater solidarity, especially with the marginalized, is that I think a lot of us are pushed towards upward mobility because I'm second generation. So, for those of us whose parents came as immigrants, there was a lot of financial precarity and social precarity for us.

And so, of course, our parents wanted us to have a firmer footing. And going towards the margins and embracing solidarity with the marginalized is the opposite of that. And so, I think unless we really unpack the values that we grew up with, it can be a barrier to doing that.

[Nikki]
Yeah. I mean, even as you're saying that, it sparks conversations I've had with friends who, when they've tried to unpack some choices that they might make, maybe about where they're choosing to live or the kinds of jobs they're choosing to pursue. And that sometimes if those go against the narratives that their parents have sort of dropped for them, the phrase I've heard people say is, we left so that you wouldn't have to.

[Kristin]
Right. Absolutely. 

[Nikki]
Who were some of the folks who shaped you?
Because you have a very particular story growing up in an immigrant family in Iowa. So, who are some of the folks who gave shape to your faith, helped you kind of know who it is that you are in the world?

[Kristin]
Some of these folks are people I've had to unlearn later on in life.

[Nikki]
Sure. Yes.

[Kristin]
But some of them continue to animate my faith. So, for the more positive folks, C.S. Lewis and all his writing was very formative for me. And for maybe the ones that I have had to unpack, I think John Piper was one that was really promulgated when I was growing up.

Our household was filled with focus on the family stuff. So, James Dobson's materials. And so, that was stuff that I really had to wrestle with and grapple with as a young adult.

[Nikki]
I mean, the thing that I notice in your writings is that there's a way that you're very curious and generous with sort of seeking out different aspects of how God might be speaking to you through a broader swath of Asian culture and other. Can you say a little bit of like going from as a person who maybe wanted to minimize some of those differences to this posture of great curiosity and generosity? Like, what were some of the things that do you think turned that ship for you?

[Kristin]
What a question. Yeah. I think one thing that really helped was I spent a couple summers in China in college and that normalized, you know, how I looked and my background.

And so, that's really healing in a lot of ways and just being in this country with so much history, you know, millennia of history. And so, that was one thing. And then, I think just I'm going to say books because books have really been windows and doors for me into experiences that I could never have myself.

And I found both, I think it might be Gracelyn who talks about this, who talks about mirrors and windows. So, mirrors, books were healing in the sense that I finally found books where I was seen, where my story was represented, which I didn't have growing up. And that was really beautiful.

And it helped capture some of like the family dynamics that I had dealt with or the racial otherness that I felt. But then, books were also windows into these other cultures and experiences and gave me access to different perspectives. And so, that made me empathetic to multiple points of views rather than just the one dominant narrative that we sometimes get.

[Nikki]
So, in some ways, you were able to sort of enter into friendship with these different communities through the books, through the stories. Yeah. I appreciate that.

One of the things that you talk about is how the Asian-American journey is an exilic life. Usually, when people talk about this idea of exile, it's usually painful or negative. But part of what you say is that there's an aspect of gift in that that God has given and entrusted to the people.

You say in your book, exilic people live lightly here on earth. Can you say a bit more about what you meant?

[Kristin]
Yeah. So, I do feel like harnessing our stories as people of migration and people of exiles can be spiritually powerful. So, I think on one hand, it just really reminds us that this world is not our ultimate home.

We span different countries, different borders. And I am fully American, but there's part of me that my heart is in Hong Kong with my grandparents. And so, there's a fracturing that happens with exilic life.

And I think that just helps us remember that we are only here temporarily. And so, that's how we live lightly. So, we don't hold to worldly ambition or material gains and see that as the beyond and all of life.

We reorient the direction of our life towards heaven and where our true home is.

[Nikki]
You mentioned both the good, but also the fracturing or the bits that are hard about that. And I appreciate that we mend with gold, right? This reference to kintsugi, this Japanese practice of restoring and bringing new beauty to things that are broken and those pieces.

Can you say more about this idea of mending? That's not something that is really accessible or quickly. I associate with kind of the theologies that I've experienced in American context.

[Kristin]
So, one thing I really love about kintsugi is that it is, to me, a powerful corrective, at least on a spiritual metaphorical level, to the kind of triumphalist American churches in which I grew up. And it's also, I think, a powerful corrective to the ways that Asian and Asian-American communities can really feel the need to save face. Oh, sure.

You know.

[Nikki]
Say more about the save face. Absolutely.

[Kristin]
So, saving face is this really deeply ingrained need in a lot of Asian families, not all, but to just present the best parts of ourselves to outsiders. Because we may have family struggles and conflicts, but we keep that at home and private. And we really want to put our best foot forward when we're with other people.

And I actually see similar trends in the American church where we want to bypass all the grief and pain and fractures in our history and just say, you know, God redeems everything. And, you know, that was in the past and we don't have to deal with that. So, yeah, for me, kintsugi, you know, in order to practice the art of kintsugi, you have to acknowledge and even create some fractures that are then mended with this beautiful gold lacquer.

In order to experience Jesus's transformation, we have to be able to bring to Jesus all the broken parts of ourselves. Parts that sometimes we would rather not acknowledge or deal with. And it is hard work.

I'm not going to minimize that. It's challenging. It's painful to go through it.

But we all have deep wounds in ourselves that can only be transformed by Christ's love. And so that's what I would encourage all of us to do is to bring those parts of ourselves to Jesus. And I think that kintsugi really encapsulates one of my favorite verses in the Bible, which is 2 Corinthians 12, 9 to 10, where Paul's recalling God saying to him, my grace is sufficient for you for my power is made perfect in weakness.

And so I feel like kintsugi is that in art form.

[Nikki]
Yeah. On the flip side. So I appreciate that invitation that it might be counter to how a lot of Asian Americans sort of navigate in the world of bringing sort of the broken pieces.

Because it's the opportunity, right, for Jesus to bring greater strength and beauty. And at the same time, you had a tough word for those in the Asian immigrant communities who are trying to hold their wealth or have a relationship with wealth, which is not the whole Asian American community, right? Like there's really great discrepancies.

But can you say a little bit about managing the relationship with both resources and privilege?

[Kristin]
Just acknowledging that different parts of the Asian immigrant community might be at different places financially and resource wise. You know, there's different parts of the cycle where some people are just trying to establish a footing and a financial foundation just to get by. And that's OK to try to have a stable foundation.

That's not wrong at all. But for those of us, like I have immense privilege just by nature of how my parents sacrificed for me and my educational privilege, my citizenship privilege, my language privilege. And so for people like me who have excess, like God clearly in the Bible has a command for us to share that and to share it generously.

And it's not ours. Like our money and our wealth and our privilege is not ours to hoard. It's all God's resources and it's meant to be used for God's family.

And, you know, it's a kind of joyless life if you're just trying to cling to that for yourself and for your own family. I think that that joy multiplies when we share it and when we share it with people who really need it. So that's my exhortation to the Asian American community, those parts of it that have excess wealth.

And I also want to say like our communities kind of normalize for us what is excess and what is normal. And so I just want to challenge us to for those of us who live in pretty at least class wise or economically homogenous communities to say society really creates barriers for us to interact with people who are different from us. And so we have to look beyond just our neighborhoods to remember all the needs in the world.

[Nikki]
I appreciate that. You know, your story comes from an immigrant family's experience. And I feel like there's a new immigrant refugee story that's unfolding in the United States right now.

Do you have any thoughts or reflections about responding to this moment, given the journey that you yourself have taken?

[Kristin]
Yeah, I think some of the elders in Asian American communities think, you know, we came here the right way and may not always be sympathetic to immigrants who came in other ways. And I think we have to remember that we all are just trying to love our families and find safety. And I really hope that Asian Americans and our community can come alongside current waves of immigrants and refugees, knowing that they are just trying to do what's best for their own families.

And knowing that we don't have to live out of the scarcity mindset, we can really live into abundance, and that there's more than enough for all of us. And that this is a country of immigrants and we should continue to welcome those who come. And, you know, I have been privileged to get to know some of these newer waves of refugees and just seeing so many similarities between the ways that our Afghan American and Haitian American friends work so hard at really not very well compensated jobs, but in order to try to establish a footing here, it reminds me of how my parents just really, you know, bore a lot in order to make a stable ground for me. And so I think we have much more in common than what seems to divide us sometimes.

[Nikki]
Absolutely. And then I'll even add on to that, which I think our immigrant parents who've done these costly journeys to me also echoes back to God's arm reaching through Jesus and the costliness and the sacrifice in order that we might come near. Kristen, thank you so much for this beautiful book and also for your voice and the way that you are stirring in us, both within the Asian American community, but also in the communities next to us to ask better questions.

So thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

[Kristin]
Thanks for having me, Nikki.

[Nikki]
20 Minute Takes is a production of Christians for Social Action. Our music was created by Andre Henry and this episode was mixed and engineered by Willoza Media. If you like this episode, spread the word by subscribing, reviewing or sharing.

I'm your host, Nikki Toyama-Szeto. If you want to find out more about our work, visit the website at ChristiansForSocialAction.org.