Sandra Maria Van Opstal: We Got Us

This week on 20 Minute Takes, Nikki Toyama-Szeto talks with Sandra Maria Van Opstal. She's the Executive Director and Co-Founder of Chasing Justice, an organization that mobilizes a young BIPOC-led communities toward living a lifestyle of faith and justice. In this episode, they talk about about a spirituality rooted in the idea of "We got us." Sandra unpacks how she's seen her local community in Chicago care for one another amidst increased ICE activity, how she sees faith communities continuing to be a crucial space of mobilization and connection, and how a spirituality rooted in movement and action from the margins is not only through the witness of scripture, but is what's most needed in the world today.

You can learn more about Sandra's work here.
Listen to the whole song "We Got Us" + the rest of the Storytellers Collective Storybook Vol. 1 here.
Finally, check out Chasing Justice's podcast, "We Got Us" here.

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20 Minute Takes is a production of Christians for Social Action
Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto 
Produced by David de Leon
Editing and Mixing by Wiloza Media
Music by Andre Henry

Transcript

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20MT (SE08) - Sandra Van-Opstal 

[Nikki]

Hello, my name is Nikki Toyama-Szeto, and I'm the Executive Director of Christians for Social Action and your host for today's episode of 20 Minute Takes. Today we talk with Sandra Van-Opstal. She's the Executive Director of Chasing Justice, and she brings us to her neighborhood in Chicago, where she shows us a little bit of what God is doing among the community, about the way that God's work has centered people on the margins, and what it is that we can learn as we try to engage in a civic and faithful way.

Join us on today's episode of 20 Minute Takes.

[Nikki]

Sandra Van-Opstal, thank you so much for joining us on this episode of 20 Minute Takes.

[Sandra]

It's awesome to be here with you.

[Nikki]

You know, so one of the things that I'm always very curious about is what's the latest that's going on in your backyard? Are there chickens chickening? Is there something, a bloom and blossoming that you're harvesting?

Or what does it look like in that corner of Chicago where you are?

[Sandra]

Well, this year we added a new beehive, so we are...

[Nikki]

Beehive?

[Sandra]

Yes, so we have chickens, and so we have our old ladies, and we have our chicks, and we have bees, and we have flowers, and vegetable garden, and herb gardens. Basically our entire backyard. We took down the fence between our house and the neighbor's house.

Now we have an orchard that's kind of being created in that space that used to be a fence. So lots is going on in the backyard.

[Nikki]

I love this idea or this picture of this immensely urban garden and space that you have. I mean, it's a typical Chicago block, grid style, and then you just have so much that's going on there. You know, I've been thinking about you all and Chasing Justice as Chicago has been in the news, and you know Chicago is always close to my heart.

But can I ask, what are some of the things that you're seeing in the neighborhood where you are? Can you describe that neighborhood a bit? Some of the things that you're seeing that are giving you hope and maybe causing you to pause and to sort of catch your breath?

[Sandra]

Yeah, well, I mean, summer is amazing in Chicago, y'all. If you have never visited Chicago in the summertime, it is amazing to come. There's a music festival or a cultural festival every single weekend.

So some of what I see around me is, we just had our Puerto Rican festival. We're heading into July to the Columbian Fest that's here also in Humboldt Park. So I think just seeing people celebrating the parts of their community that are beautiful and hope-filled and resilient, especially for communities that have suffered just so much.

When you think about the Latina community, the Latine community, and how much it has gone through over the last few years, to see pauses and glimpses of beauty and celebration and just resilience, that has been amazing. And it'll happen all summer long. So, you know, I think the things that continue to weigh on us, how federal policies impact local communities.

So you could have this Supreme Court decision or a federal policy that comes through and it's like lived and experienced in real time in local communities. And I think the other reality is just what ICE continues to do in our community. So the local alerts about what's happening here on the West Side, it is consistent.

Like, here's where we're seeing it. Here's where people are being picked up. So I think though some of the activity has gone quiet, it's still very, very present.

And so, yeah, I think those are the two that come to mind. And it's Chicago in the summer. So navigating gun violence is always present and full of questions and lament.

[Nikki]

And now when you're talking about like the alerts and these other things, that's kind of an informal network of alerts that's happening, right? This is people from the community in the community sort of organizing together, that sort of a thing. Is that right?

[Sandra]

Yes, it's the rapid response networks. So there are a few around the West Side. There's a Northwest Side, West Side, Southwest Side.

So there are communities of people in particular neighborhoods in the city of Chicago that have both rapid response on something like Signal, as well as WhatsApp groups, as well as Instagram. And so other forms of social media. So they're just alerting to like, hey, on this block and this block, we saw these unmarked cars.

This is what they look like. This is a little bit like some of the license plate information. Beware in front of these places.

So it's local community members responding in real time. And run by, I mean, there's a mom's group I'm a part of for the kids' school. There's, which is also a Signal group that keeps me informed on what's happening on our block.

And then the other group that I'm at for my kids' school, it's on WhatsApp, is more about mutual aid and ways that we can come alongside of families that are in need because of some of the immigration enforcement. So yes, they're all informal. They're run by community members.

I mean, whistles, you know, whistles and neighbors and people putting their bodies in places that matter.

[Nikki]

Yeah, no, I think it's fantastic. And it's been inspiring to see people's definition of neighbor, like growing and expanding and kind of coming together in that way. I think one of the things that I always find so interesting when I talk to you is the approach for civic engagement, for political advocates and all that.

In Chicago, it's a pretty unique thing. It's just really hyperlocal. What are some of the things that you are learning or seeing or you think that is really particular to kind of how the pursuit of justice and partnership with politicians or policy works and plays out?

[Sandra]

Yeah, I mean, I think it starts at the local level. And I think from that local level, it expands out to county, state, you know, federal, in particular, our elected officials, for example. If I think about our older persons, which are city council persons, our mayor, our state representatives, our U.S. Congress folks and senators, they actually work very closely together locally, as well as throughout the vastness that are the policies that are being made. So I think if you're not sure how things impact a community locally, then it's hard to make and create a way forward on a state level or a federal level. You really have to ask the question, hey, when this thing gets passed, what happens to neighbors in downstate Illinois? What happens to neighbors in Chicago?

And then work from there. So I think Chicago has a unique history of, you know, kind of the weight and the strength and the power of the local council person. It's pretty strong.

Some people say it's a city of 77 tiny mayors, because Chicago has 77 neighborhoods and each of those places, each of those has, you know, an elected official. And those little mayors are the ones that make decisions that impact housing, you know, education, enforcement of our local policing, that kind of thing. So, but yeah, I think so.

Chicago is unique in that sense. But I think other cities have really mobilized. I mean, I've watched, you know, Minneapolis.

I've watched New York. I've watched Los Angeles, you know, Houston, you know, all these cities across Charlotte, you know, across the country that have figured out, like, how is it that our power structures speak to one another? And distinctly at this intersection of faith and civic engagement, what is the role of the church historically in this space and place?

And then what is the role of the church today? So we had this amazing conversation with some of the key leaders in Minneapolis that were behind some of the actions in Minneapolis. And when I said, man, churches are so important in the city of Chicago, they looked stunned.

They were like, really? Because we don't even think about churches over here. And I was like, really?

And so we had this really deep discussion around what does it mean to be church in those spaces? And then I had more questions like, well, which churches? White churches, Black churches, Latina churches?

Because the Black church, I think, is involved in every city that it's in. So I feel like there are some distinctives to each of our communities. But yeah, I have seen, we learned, I think, from what was happening in Los Angeles, with ICE in particular, when it came to us, I think Minneapolis was learning from Chicago, Charlotte from Minneapolis.

So I think these different cities were learning from each other, like, huh, that doesn't make sense here, but maybe we could do this, you know? So I think having these networks of civic leaders and pastors and nonprofit leaders who are in communication with each other across cities really helps to inform, like, how could I live out that principle of neighboring and using the masses in ways that make sense for our city? No, I appreciate that.

[Nikki]

What advice would you give pastors who are trying to communicate with folks who are not really familiar with faith communities about what it is that churches do bring to the table when it comes to community engagement? So that response that you have of people are like, huh, churches, really? I've seen that happen.

There's a lot of folks who are trying to mobilize advocates and that kind of thing who are really surprised. But I also find that a lot of pastors or church leaders don't know how to translate into language that people outside the church would understand, like what it is that a community of faith brings to the table that might be helpful.

[Sandra]

Yeah, I mean, the starting place for me on what churches bring to the table is the reality that people gather in mass at churches. I don't mean in masses as far as a service order, but we're there in numbers. So churches gather in mass and so we are mobilizing people for civic engagement.

The question is, what are we oriented to in our civic engagement? Oh, interesting. Yes.

So something is happening from that pulpit or from those discipleship conversations that is mobilizing people to care about the world around them in some way. The question is, in what way are you caring for the world around you? So if I have 500 congregants, if I have 200 congregants, if I have 10,000 congregants, what am I sending them off to in my benediction?

Like I am doing that benediction because it's part of our worship service. What am I sending them to? I think that's what we ought to think about as local pastors.

It's like, I'm sending them into this world. What am I sending them to do? Yes.

My hope would be that we are sending them to be loving their neighbors as they love God. Then the next question is, what does it mean to love your neighbor and who's my neighbor? So communities like Chicago, I think because there are so many citizens of color, like so many of us, Chicago 68%, non-white.

I mean, the black church, the immigrant church, the Latina church, the Asian American church, these are places where we go regularly. And even if we don't attend on Sunday, we have some kind of mysterious connection to a local parish because it's a part of our ancestry. It's a part of our grandmother's faith.

It's a part of, so for many communities like the Latina community, for example, you may have migrants and immigrants that are coming in who may not necessarily want to find a quote unquote church home, but they know they can find help at their local parish or at their local church. And so they enter into the church, they're connected to the church. And therefore there's just a lot of power in numbers of who's showing up and how do you get information disseminated, right?

So you look at something like civil rights and you're like, yeah, it makes total sense. People, the Montgomery bus boycott, the sit-ins, all those things, the information was disseminated through the church. You look at something terrible like the KKK and guess how that information was disseminated?

Through congregations, through people who congregated together. So I think the church still remains particularly for communities of color, the space where information is sent out and theologically where we are sent out. That's the point where at the end we give a benediction and we send us out.

So there's so much potential. There's just so much potential. And sadly, I don't think that it's seen and really grasped in many spaces.

[Nikki]

Yeah. No, I appreciate that. I think I love how you're just calling out some of what we do, but in essence, you're scrubbing some of it from some spiritual language that we might use to sort of isolate or drop things into certain buckets.

And one of the things that I appreciate that you all are doing is there's this old concept of pilgrimage that I think is kind of lost, but I think there's a way that within Chasing Justice, you all are embracing this very old practice and you're breathing new life into it. Can you tell us a little bit about why this focus on pilgrimage, what it is and what is that looking like?

[Sandra]

Yeah. So for us, we really believe... I have seen in my almost 30 years of ministry now, I've seen- 30 years.

I know. I know. I have seen that when you show up in a space and a place, you're able to see something that someone cannot describe to you.

That when you walk alongside of friends and you walk alongside of new friends in different places, you're able to see the world from their eyes. So yeah, the practice is ancient. It's to walk alongside of, sometimes without words, someone else as we're exploring and seeing what God is doing in the world around us, what God has done and what God is doing in the world around us.

So I believe that justice starts where you are locally. And so what we have basically invited people to do is to visit in their own cities across the country. So instead of, hey, come, everyone come to Chicago.

We're like, we want to kind of have these experiences of pilgrimage in cities around the country where you can see your own city with new eyes, where you feel like maybe you're alone. Maybe you're the only one in the whole city who cares about justice. Actually, there are people there that are people of goodwill that are also getting into good trouble.

And we would love for you to meet them and see them. And we would like for you to know the history of your city and what has been done here by the church in your city. And then to ask, how do we carry this forward then in our very own city?

So that's kind of how the pilgrimages started. They started, first of all, we did a pilgrimage in Chicago where we invited everyone to come and see, because we do think Chicago, I mean, I love Chicago. I think it's a very unique space, but we wanted them to come and see where justice wasn't just an idea, but it was actually practiced in real life, in real stories by real people, not heroes, everyday people.

And then we said, this is such a great experience. We've had this a few times already, but what if we could do this for people in their very own cities? So we did one in Pensacola.

We've done one in Montgomery. We're heading to New York in August. The idea is not to have people from the outside of the city to come, but to have people from their very own city, see their own city and what is happening there.

And then therefore, after that experience, to connect to it for the longterm.

[Nikki]

Oh, I love that. I love that idea of getting to both walk in your own city, but also get to see it with some new eyes and maybe with asking your city different kinds of questions. I think that's fantastic.

[Sandra]

An example would be like when we were in Pensacola, there were young leaders that had no idea that Pensacola had this incredibly vibrant black middle-class and upper-class. They didn't know because it wasn't present today the way it was back then. There's a reason, there's a history to that.

And so they were able to learn about their own city and as black leaders to see how black entrepreneurs and business leaders and pastors and churches and organizations were able to thrive and grow in Pensacola. And then they left the question, what if we were able to show up in that same way today? How would that change our city?

[Nikki]

Yeah, I think that's so fantastic. One of the things that I've really appreciated is you've all had a podcast series called We've Got Us. And then some of that translated to a song that I saw you write called We've Got Us.

And I think I've puzzled with what was it that you were seeing in the neighborhood and what gospel truth were you a little bit trying to put your finger on as you put forward those stories that stir the Christian imagination?

[Sandra]

I see that the Bible is written by and for people on the margins. From Genesis to Revelation, God's people have been God's pilgrim people, as folks would say, on the margins, not at the center of power, that Christianity at the center of power only came after the scriptures. And so to really root us in this idea of words of hope and faith and belief that God can show up in brilliant and fantastic ways through ordinary people on the margins is what we were going for with both the pilgrimages and with the song and with the podcast.

And I was like, now we've got t-shirts. I was like, wait, it's We've Got Us, the podcast, the songs, the t-shirts. And I think what we're trying to do is to reorient particularly a generation that is primarily people of color to this idea that we are not alone and we don't have to wait for someone else to come and save us, which I think has been kind of the Christian narrative, very distorted.

American Christians go and save the rest of the world. And we really, I believe it's from everywhere to everywhere, right? We're sharing good news to one another in the ways that God is showing up in our particular on our continent, in our countries, and speaking the testimony of the good news to one another.

And that's not what we've grown up with. We've grown up with someone comes and saves those poor black and brown people in the city. We have so many people come and save us at church.

I'm like, I don't even know what to do with this. How many more VBSs? Does someone have to come?

We have the gospel here. We're preaching the gospel to our kids. And so with that kind of distorted imagination of people come and save us, we have to speak over there to those people that have the power so they can come and save us.

And I think what we were trying to show was actually, no, we got us. We, the people on the margins, are the people God is caring for. We, the people on the margins, are the ones that God has had his eye on.

We, the people on the margins, are the ones that Jesus centered in the stories. We, the people on the margins, we have one another. And so we fight together, and we win together, and we work together for our liberation.

And hopefully that we can see, even in our lifetime, the collective flourishing of our work when we do it together, because we're stronger together. So it's meant to say that we don't have to wait for someone to liberate us, that we, like the women in Moses' story, we, like the very people that follow Jesus, have the ability and the anointing of God's spirit to see liberation in our own communities without waiting for someone else.

[Nikki]

It's not a, we're giving up on God, we've got us, but rather it seems to be this acknowledgement that God does not only work through the other to bring good to our community, but rather God is present at the roots and is revealing God's self through our people, like we are also that vessel.

[Sandra]

Is that- Yeah. And I think it's a counter narrative to, we just got to get white evangelicals to understand that immigrants matter. We just have to get white people to understand that there's white Christian nationalism out there.

Let's focus our attention on understanding white Christian. So I think it's like so much of our energy as communities of color goes to helping our white ally friends in the journey that we actually miss the opportunity we have with one another to ally together. That's the counter narrative.

It's not that, of course, God is there. I mean, I'm just assuming. So I'm assuming God is there with us, like in the story of Esther and Ruth, and I'm assuming God is there with us.

But what we're trying to say is we are tired of waiting for the 81%. We are tired of waiting, even in circles where people are more progressive for them to stop centering themselves. We're going to spend our energy here as Native, Black, Latina, Asian American, with our white friend allies who are already there with us doing the work.

We're not going to spend our energy trying to convince people of our humanity anymore. I love that. Yeah.

From the song, do you have a favorite verse or favorite line? Man, so many good ones. Well, the one we put on our t-shirt is juntos luchamos, juntos ganamos.

And it means together we fight and together we win. I get chills when you say that. Yeah, I think that is probably the melody on that is also beautiful.

But I think the words like we're together in this when we oftentimes feel so alone. And then in the bridge, there's this image and the image says, tears streaming down, baptize the ground that we stand on, our feet washed in pain, still believing there's a better way. Wow.

And like every time I hear that part sung, I can see it. Like the tears of the mothers in our city, like holding their pain with the violence, the gun violence that we experience, or the tears of the immigrant moms trying to speak to loved ones in detention. It just the amount of tears, so many tears we've cried.

Yeah. So many tears that they actually baptize the ground that we stand on.

[Nikki]

Yeah.

[Sandra]

There's something so beautiful in that. And then our feet are washed in pain, but still in the midst of that, we believe that there's a better way. And to me, it's one of the many, many Psalms of lament that says like, we acknowledge we are soaked in our own pain and tears, but it is a baptism of suffering that I think invites us to closer communion with Christ.

And it is in that suffering that we believe there's a better way. We still believe there's a better way. We still hope for something more.

We still long and trust that God is going to do something else. And that's the kind, that's a faith that is so rooted and echoes the faith of our ancestors as well. So, and our elders.

And so I think that line is one of my favorites. Oh, it's one of my favorites too.

[Nikki]

Thank you so much for the work you do through Chasing Justice and for the ways that you are God is doing in and through your community. We're so grateful.

[Sandra]

Thank you guys so much.

[Nikki]

20 Minute Takes is a production of Christians for Social Action. Our music was created by Andre Henry, and this episode was mixed and engineered by Wiloza Media. If you like this episode, spread the word by subscribing, reviewing or sharing.

I'm your host, Nikki Toyama-Zseto. If you want to find out more about our work, visit the website at ChristiansForSocialAction.org.