S5 E8: Near-Death Experiences (NDE)

Season 5 covers the supernatural and paranormal from a Spirit-led perspective. In this episode, Glenn looks at near-death experiences and discusses the difficulties in verifying what really happens. He points out that the Christian view of consciousness does allow for near-death experiences, while the materialistic view does not. 

The Bible will be the source of truth for this season, even though extra-biblical books and podcasts will be discussed. As discussed in Episode 1, Glenn will be kind to the authors and podcast hosts discussed throughout the season.

This episode has a transcript. If your podcast player does not support transcripts, please go to the Transcripts section of https://spiritledhope.com/  These transcripts have been edited for accuracy and are typically of higher quality than those produced automatically by many podcast apps.

Transcript

S5 E8 TRANSCRIPT 

NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCES

INTRODUCTION

Hello everyone and welcome to Spirit-Led Hope. My name is Glenn Erichsen, and in this episode, we are discussing:

     NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCES

This is Episode 8 of Season 5, and it is important that you listen to Episode 7 about consciousness before listening to this one. You may feel lost if you do not.

If you did listen to Episode 7, you may recall that we described three views of consciousness. They were the materialistic view, the universal consciousness view, and the Christian view. And we wondered which one of these views most closely describes reality.

I did mention that near-death experiences, if true, seem to challenge the materialistic view. This is because near-death experiences appear to indicate that our consciousness can be separated from our physical bodies…something not explainable by materialism. 

In contrast to the materialistic view, universal consciousness has no problem with accepting near death experiences. In fact, one could predict such events because each person is connected to an all-pervasive consciousness. There is nothing limiting a person’s consciousness to their body. So, if NDEs are true, then we might argue that universal consciousness more accurately describes this part of reality than materialism.

But what about the Christian view, does it allow for near-death experiences? Interestingly, it does. First, as we pointed out last episode, the Bible clearly presents humans as spiritual beings with a physical body. But we also noted that James said “the body without the spirit” is dead. So how can the spirit, or consciousness, or non-physical part of a human, leave the body without killing it?

The key is that a “near-death” experience does not reach full death. And apparently, there can be a limited period when a non-fatal separation between the physical and non-physical is allowed. 

I am often amazed at how the Bible contains verses which almost seem unimportant. But then you see how critical they are for explaining reality. This is the case for 2 Corinthians 2:2-4. In these verses, Paul is forced to present his apostolic credentials to the Corinthians, and this is what he says:

I know a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven fourteen years ago. Whether he was in the body or out of the body, I don’t know; God knows. I know that this man—whether in the body or out of the body I don’t know; God knows—was caught up into paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a human being is not allowed to speak. I will boast about this person, but not about myself, except of my weaknesses.

2 Corinthians 2:2-4 CSB

In these verses Paul describes a visit to heaven by a man, who we understand to be Paul himself. This was a way for Paul to, sort of, boast without boasting. Although we do not have clear proof, many scholars believe this visit to heaven happened to Paul during one of the many times he was beaten and stoned nearly to the point of death. This sounds just like the numerous reports we hear of NDEs.

This account is interesting because Paul is not even sure if he visited heaven in his body or out of his body. Paul recognizes that, with God, both are possible. So, from the Christian perspective, out of body experiences at near-death, can happen.

To summarize, near-death experiences are possible with both the universal consciousness and Christian views. They are not possible if materialism is true…at least the way materialism is defined today.

SOME EXAMPLES

When looking at specific examples of NDEs, we have a problem. How do we know that they are true? Anyone can make up a story about going to heaven or meeting dead people. People may fabricate the story for attention or financial gain. In 2010, a book called “The Boy Who Came Back from Heaven” supposedly described a near-death experience by a young boy. The only problem was that the boy later admitted to making the whole thing up. The publisher had to pull the book from circulation.

What we need then is some form of evidence which helps us to evaluate what someone claims to have happened when they were nearly dead. From a scientific perspective, this sounds difficult. How would you go about connecting someone to instrumentation and then nearly kill them? And yet, that has been done.

There is a very famous case from 1991 with a woman named Pam Reynolds who underwent a surgical procedure to address an aneurism close to her brain stem. The procedure was several hours long, and it involved, get this, draining the blood from her head.  The doctors also put earplugs in her ears that were equipped with small speakers which emitted continuous audible clicks. The doctors did this because her brain would normally cause these clicks to show up on an electroencephalography (EEG). In other words, with this method, if the EEG showed a flatline, they knew that her brain was totally non-responsive. And yes, the doctors saw that during the procedure, her brain flatlined. This indicated that her brain could do nothing.

And yet, after the procedure, Pam described being pulled out of her body and hovering over herself where she could watch the procedure. She was able to describe accurately what the doctors did to her and the equipment they used. She repeated conversations in the operating theater, even though her brain was non-functioning and she had earplugs in. She also described being pulled to a light and meeting her deceased grandmother and uncle. She was enjoying the experience so much that she did not want to return to her body until her uncle pushed her back in. The BBC did a documentary called “NDE-The Day I Died” and you can hear Pam describe this in her own words. It is available on YouTube and the part with Pam is about half-way into the video.

When you hear an example like this, it sounds like proof that our consciousness can indeed function outside of our bodies. But, as you might guess, those believing in a materialistic view have all sorts of reasons why the data is not definitive. I listened to a conversation between two highly qualified neurosurgeons about this event. One was a materialist and the other was Catholic. No matter what the Catholic surgeon presented as data, the materialist quickly rejected it and said that more testing needed to be done. And this is what we find when it comes to topics like this. Most people will do everything they can to continue believing what they believe, no matter which side of the argument they are on.

One of my favorite famous NDE accounts, with apparent evidence, took place at the Harbourview Medical Center in Seattle, which is not far from where I live. And the reason this account is one of my favorites, is because I had, not a near-death experience, but something very interesting happen to me at the same hospital.

If you are not familiar with Harbourview, it is not the hospital you want to go to. Harbourview is the hospital in the Pacific Northwest where you are taken for medical emergencies. In my case, I was air-lifted to Harbourview because of a car accident. If you are taken to Harbourview, it generally means that you are in trouble.

The famous NDE account was reported by a social worker named Kimberly Clark Sharp in 1977. The event so changed her that she founded the Seattle chapter of the International Association of Near-Death studies. She also formed what appears to be the first support group for those having near-death experiences.

To summarize the story, Kimberly was assigned a Spanish-speaking migrant worker named Maria. Maria was transported to Harbourview after suffering a massive heart attack. As the story goes, Kimberly used an interpreter to speak to Maria after the surgery. Maria was unsettled and described leaving her body and moving throughout the hospital during the surgery.

What is interesting, and not often mentioned when you hear this account, is that Kimberly had experienced her own NDE several years earlier. This allowed her to empathize and press for more details. As Maria’s story unfolded, Maria described seeing a worn and scuffed, blue tennis shoe, with one lace tucked under the heel, on a narrow ledge of an outside window.

This seemed like an impossible thing for Maria to describe given the conditions of how she arrived at the hospital. Kimberly decided she would try and find the shoe, and sure enough, in a location impossible for Maria to have ever seen…there was the shoe, just as Maria described.

This narrative is considered a verifiable account of a classic out-of-body experience. But it is not without its critics. Skeptics point out that Kimberly’s story has changed slightly over the years, and there is no way to confirm what Kimberly said because Maria died shortly after her release from the hospital. In other words, this whole account could have been made up by Kimberly.

Kimberly Clark Sharp is still alive, and I watched some YouTube videos of her doing interviews. I am undecided whether this really happened or not. It does not bother me that her story has changed a bit because the essentials are the same. I have noticed that as I have gotten older, my stories have also changed. It is just something our memory can do as events become further in the past. 

What makes me tend to believe the story is true is the way Kimberly became actively involved in NDE research and a supporter of NDE survivors. In an interview I watched, Kimberly described the impact seeing the shoe had on her. It was proof to her that what she had experienced years earlier was real. She had tangible evidence that a person could have an out-of-body experience. It validated what had happened to her. If you are skeptical, you may point out that this event made Kimberly famous and gave her a career. Of course, only God and Kimberly know for sure.

And this is the difficulty about many near-death experiences. There is just no way to prove them. But there are also many documented accounts that are difficult to explain. Like how do you explain a blind person describing details they saw when out of their bodies? If you are a skeptic, you either accuse someone of outright deception, come up with an explanation that makes sense to you, or change your mind and become a believer.

Although I have never had a near-death experience, I understand how difficult it can be to describe something beyond our normal experience. I have compassion for anyone who has experienced an NDE and struggles to explain it.

My visit to Harbourview did not result in an NDE, because I was never near death. But I did experience something hard to explain. I remember leaving work late at night and getting into my car. I have no recollection of waiting at a stop light when a cargo van plowed into the back of my car, pushed me across oncoming traffic and into a field. The impact was so great that the trunk of my car was pushed nearly to the back of the driver’s seat. Had anyone been sitting in the back seat, they could have easily been killed.

I have no memory of the police or paramedics arriving. I have no memory of the paramedics loading me onto a transfer board and helicopter. I have a vague memory of the sensation of flying, or maybe it was just what I felt when I was being wheeled through the hospital. One of the nurses later told me that I was whining about the discomfort, but I have no memory of it. And I have no memory of the imaging and diagnostics the doctors did on my brain which had experienced a severe concussion as it rebounded multiple times within my skull from the force of the collision.

My first thought after the collision was wondering, “Where am I?” I knew that I was not in my car, but nothing made sense. And this is when I had something happen that is not possible to fully describe. I have met only one person in my life who experienced something similar under similar circumstances. The only way I can describe what happened is that I experienced the sensation of my brain rebooting like a computer. If you have ever watched an old DOS computer turn on in diagnostic mode, that is how I would describe what happened. I was aware of my brain restarting and I experienced critical information falling into place as my brain began to work again and process data.

I distinctly recall testing my brain as I tried to remember dates like the birthdays of my children. It was after this that I began assessing my body and I realized that for some reason I did not have any clothes on. I discovered that I had oxygen tubes in my nose. And then it was unsettling to discover that I had a tube coming out of a very private part of my body. How and when did that get there?

The only thing I was wearing was my watch, and I remember looking at it and noting the date. It was then that a doctor came rushing in. Apparently, I was hooked up to some type of monitor so he could know when I regained consciousness. In retrospect, I find this funny, because after saying something like, “Welcome back,” he asked me if I could tell him the date. Well, I had just looked at my watch, so I told it to him and his was response was, “It is great that your memory is working.”

My first impulse was to tell him that if I had not just looked at my watch, I would have no idea what the date was. But he was so happy for me that I just could not say it. And by that point, my memory was coming back, and I was starting to make sense of where I was. I remembered who my sister-in-law was when she was the first family to arrive, and I felt tremendous relief when Monica, my precious wife, appeared at my side.

The reason I am telling this in some detail, is that it has some resemblance to a near-death experience. And here is why I say that…I was consciously wondering where I was before my brain was fulling working. In other words, I was experiencing consciousness apart from my brain.

Now, my brain was not flatlined so I know that if you are skeptical, you can say that my brain was still producing consciousness. And I cannot argue with that. But at the same time, I was the one who experienced this. I had a moment, apart from my brain, where I was aware of myself. It was only when I felt my brain reboot that I began functioning in a way that felt normal and physical. And here is a key point…only I can describe what happened to me and what it felt like. 

And that is the way it is with every near-death experience. Science has no way to simulate or monitor what a human experiences in their consciousness. If you are a materialist, then for now all you can do is monitor the brain. But those who have experienced NDEs will argue that there is something more. What they experience is subjective and may not be accepted as scientific evidence. But that does not make it any less real, although it is typically not verifiable.

This is a total side note, but when I was in the hospital experiencing my brain reboot, I realized there was one piece of information that never went through the rebooting process. It was that I was married to Monica. Somehow, the reality of our marriage bond was so strong that it overcame any of the brain trauma. I find that fascinating because Scripture says that a husband and wife are one…and I wonder if I had a glimpse of that bond because of the accident. This has nothing to do with this episode, but it is something I have thought about many times.

CLOSING

One of the common things that happens during near-death experiences, is that people describe going to heaven. In the next episode, we are going to look at these experiences more closely. Our reference will be the book “Imagine Heaven” by John Burke.

As always, you can send me comments, suggestions, or questions, by email at glenn@spiritledhope.com, or simply use the Contact Form at spiritledhope.com. You can also send me a one-way text message by going to the episode show notes and clicking on the link with your smart phone. If you find these episodes useful, please spread the word and share them with your friends.

And now, as you live out your day…

May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope, by the power of the Holy Spirit.  

Until the next episode, take care.

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