S5 E9: Visits to Heaven

Season 5 covers the supernatural and paranormal from a Spirit-led perspective. In this episode, Glenn continues looking at NDEs, specifically ones that involve going to heaven. Glenn shares his own skepticism about all accounts of visits to heaven, but emphasizes that they can happen based on the Bible. Even though visits to heaven are possible, Pastor Glenn cautions that any experience of heaven must be secondary to what God has already given us in the Bible.

The Bible will be the source of truth for this season, even though extra-biblical books and podcasts will be discussed. As discussed in Episode 1, Glenn will be kind to the authors and podcast hosts discussed throughout the season.

This episode has a transcript. If your podcast player does not support transcripts, please go to the Transcripts section of https://spiritledhope.com/  These transcripts have been edited for accuracy and are typically of higher quality than those produced automatically by many podcast apps.

Transcript

S5 E9 TRANSCRIPT 

VISITS TO HEAVEN

INTRODUCTION

Hello everyone and welcome to Spirit-Led Hope. My name is Glenn Erichsen, and in this episode, we are discussing:

     VISITS TO HEAVEN

In Episodes 7 and 8 we looked at near-death experiences and how these events seem to show that consciousness can be separated from the body. In this episode we want to consider a special case of NDEs…the case where someone nearly dies and appears to get a glimpse of heaven. 

You might wonder why we are looking at this special case. I know this is a Christian-based podcast, but I think there is another compelling reason. In the last episode, I stressed that NDEs seem to fit well with both the views of universal consciousness and Christianity. If consciousness is truly leaving the body, and the evidence is building, then materialism does not adequately describe reality.

But how would we go about determining whether universal consciousness or Christianity better describes reality? And I wonder if these glimpses of heaven, if true, might just help statistically answer that question for us. We will discuss that later.

THIS IS A DIFFICULT EPISODE FOR ME

Before we go any further, I want to confess that this episode has been hard for me to work on. The reason has to do with something I mentioned in the last episode. There I pointed out that a young boy wrote a book about a fake near-death experience and his trip to heaven. When he confessed his lies, the publisher was forced to remove the book from publication.

One of the difficulties about all near-death experiences, is that we must rely on an individual’s account of what happened. We do not have any scientific tools to detect or record what someone experiences in their consciousness. And this leaves the door open for fraud and fakery.

There is no doubt that individuals have fabricated stories about near-death experiences for fame or profit. And to make matters worse, I believe Christians are more gullible and at risk for believing these stories, especially when they involve God and heaven.

I hope that does not upset you when I say that. But I do believe it is true. As Christians, we want to believe the best in everyone. And because we want to be careful to “not judge” someone, we sometimes turn off our critical reasoning and just accept what someone says.

If you doubt that, some of you may remember what is now called the Satanic Panic from the 70’s, 80’s, and early 90’s. During this period, people were making up stories about Satanic cults that were accepted in the Church as true, even though there was no supporting evidence for these specific events.

When I was in high school there was a man named Mike Warnke who published a book called “The Satan Seller.” Warnke was a Christian comedian who claimed to have once been a Satanic high priest. Like millions of other Christians, I was fascinated by his stories of the occult and how Jesus saved him. It was disturbing and it made me sad to find out later that he had made it all up.

Because of events like this, I have a healthy skepticism which is reinforced by my science and engineering background. I do not know if every Christian saying they went to heaven really went to heaven. I would like to believe all stories I hear from Christians about heaven, and you may too. But it is important that we subject all stories about trips to heaven to the Bible, common sense, logic, and spiritual discernment. That is the wise thing to do.

WE CAN VISIT HEAVEN

In all cases the first thing is to determine if something is allowed by Scripture. With regards to heaven, the Bible is clear in letting us know that there is a place for us with God. Jesus made it very personal when he said:

“Don’t let your heart be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you? If I go away and prepare a place for you, I will come again and take you to myself, so that where I am you may be also.”

John 14:1-3 CSB

Not only is there a place in heaven made for us, but we know that we can go there either “in the body” or “out of the body.” In the last episode we read Paul’s account in 2 Corinthians where he says:

I know a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven fourteen years ago. Whether he was in the body or out of the body, I don’t know; God knows. I know that this man—whether in the body or out of the body I don’t know; God knows—was caught up into paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a human being is not allowed to speak. I will boast about this person, but not about myself, except of my weaknesses.

2 Corinthians 2:2-4 CSB

As we look through more of Scripture, we also see accounts where people like John visited heaven “in the Spirit.” Ezekiel and Isaiah also had profound visions and mystical experiences which point to heaven and describe some of the things there.

I find it fascinating that research shows a strong correlation between near-death and spiritual experiences. The main difference seems to be that NDEs are typically (as you might imagine) not planned, but some religious and spiritual experiences are. 

The point I am trying to make in all of this, is that Scripture supports the reality of heaven. And Scripture also shows us that under the right circumstances, we can visit.

A TYPICAL NDE

I want to jump now to some data that is presented in the book “Imagine Heaven” by John Burke. Now I acknowledge that this book is written from a Christian perspective, but it does cite a lot of data which is available for review. The author may interpret the data differently than a non-Christian, but the basic facts are made available so the reader can disagree if they wish.

Because of its implications, a huge amount of research has been done and is ongoing with regards to near-death experiences. The research has involved people from all cultures and backgrounds. One of the most intriguing studies was done by Dr. Melvin Morse at Seattle Children’s Hospital where Dr. Morse interviewed 121 children who had undergone a near-death experience. This study is important because these children had no way of knowing anything about other NDEs. And what Dr. Morse found was that these children confirm what other studies with adults have shown...like the study conducted by Dr. Jeffery Long. 

For one study, Dr. Long interviewed 1300 people who had an NDE. From this group, he compiled a list of 12 key elements present in most NDEs and the percentage of people who experienced it. Not everyone who has a near-death experience visits heaven. But from the percentages I am about to read, I think you will see that what people call “visiting heaven,” or something like it, is common.

I am going to read the element, and then the percentage. The ultimate source of this information is from Dr. Long’s book “Evidence of the Afterlife.” Here we go:

1.  Out-of-body experience with a separation of consciousness from the physical body…75.4 %

2.  Heightened senses where the person is more conscious and alert than normal…74.4%

3.  Intense and generally positive emotions or feelings often noted as “incredible peace”…76.2%

4.  Passing into or through a tunnel…33.8%

5.  Encountering a mystical or brilliant light. (It is not stated in this list, but many people call this light God, or Jesus)… 64.6%

6.  Encounter other beings, either mystical beings or deceased relatives or friends…57.3%

7.  A sense of alteration of time or space…60.5%

8.  Life review…22.2%

9.  Encountering unworldly or “heavenly” realms…52.2%

10.  Encountering or learning special knowledge…56%

11.  Encountering a boundary or barrier…31%

12.  A return to the body with an awareness of a decision to return…58.5%

These are fascinating numbers and it will be interesting to see how they change as more data comes in.

Now in this episode, I am not going to try to go through an exhaustive Biblical definition of heaven, because I think most Christians have some idea of what we should expect. But if you think of this list and how it compares to the Bible, there is a strong correlation. And keep in mind that this data comes from people with all sorts of religious beliefs. It is not just the Christians who meet deceased relatives or encounter a brilliant light which often relates to them as God, or Jesus. These 12 things are truly universal.

When you dig into the stories behind the statistics, there are some accounts which again challenge the idea of materialism. One of the more baffling types of NDEs is when someone meets a person that they did not know was dead. There are recorded cases where people met a twin they never knew about. In one case the twin died at childbirth and the parents never told the surviving twin who later met his brother during a near-death experience. In another case a women met her friend who unknowingly died a few days earlier. Materialism is hard-pressed to explain anything like this.

CHRISTIANITY VERSUS UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUSNESS

Earlier, I proposed that glimpses of heaven during an NDE, if true, might show statistically that Christianity has more explanatory power than universal consciousness. And to me, this seems like it might be possible. I am not saying that subjective testimonies of an experience can prove the Bible. I am just proposing that if thousands of people say things that reflect what Scripture has said for thousands of years, that should count favorably towards the worldview presented in the Bible.

To me, Jesus presenting himself as a love-filled light, seems to favor the Biblical description. And then there is the life review. People who experience the life review are often confronted, in love, with their moral condition. This sounds like the work of the Holy Spirit. And the description of boundaries or barriers does not strike me as something that most people would even think about. And yet, the Bible does talk about chasms that cannot be crossed.

In preparing for this episode, I got my hopes up that the NDE data about heaven would overwhelmingly point to the view of Christianity. And, I think that it often does for those people who experience the NDE. But for those of us watching from the outside, I think the conversation will continue, and here is why: Advocates of universal consciousness are using language that sounds a lot like Christianity.

For example, practitioners of universal consciousness often use the term “Christ consciousness.” With Christ consciousness, an individual has a divine spark within them which connects them to all beings. And this connection is personal because personality can come out of consciousness. Things like a life review can be reframed as the universal consciousness seeking to create adjustments within itself. And so on…I think you get the idea.

Where I think we are now, is that materialism is falling behind, but Christianity and universal consciousness are both seen as having something to offer. As a Christian, I absolutely believe that what God shows us in the Bible is the way that matches reality. But I think that Christians will look at possible visits to heaven and say they support a view of God, and followers of universal consciousness will say that visits to heaven support their beliefs.

So where does that leave us? I think it leaves us right where we have always been. We see that God builds our faith through evidence and experiences that may be insufficient to convince others, unless they decide to pursue God…and then it will be enough. We cannot change the minds of others, but we can love them and allow the Holy Spirit to work through us in a way that will help them.

THE SPIRIT-LED WAY 

So, what do you think? Are people really going to heaven? For sure, many who claim to have gone to heaven have been profoundly affected by the experience. There is no doubt that something dramatic happened to them. And because Scripture shows it is possible, I tend to think that a significant percentage of these experiences are genuine. But again, I personally have some healthy skepticism when I read many of the accounts. Then again, if I knew the person and knew they were trustworthy, I would believe them.

As Spirit-led people, what is a good way to view NDE-visits to heaven? I believe we should be open to God doing something special, but we must be wise in the process.

I think accounts that people share give us a wonderful opportunity to remind ourselves that Jesus has a place for us. Whether or not these people went to heaven, God’s word promises us that something real is waiting for us.

The forward to the book “Imagine Heaven” was written by Pastor Don Piper, who believes he visited heaven when he died for 90 minutes. He wrote about it in a book called, as you might guess, “90 Minutes in Heaven.” 

Piper suffered gruesome injuries and it took him over a year before he could even walk again. He was in constant excruciating pain month after month, and many times he wished he could go back to heaven. But he eventually understood that God had a plan for him on earth, and that his suffering was going to help others go through similar things.

Don Piper is still alive, and what I love about Piper’s story is that he never denies the pain and the frustration he went through. But his visit to heaven helped him understand, through the experience, that he does not need to fear death. He knows that when his purpose on earth is fulfilled, glorious things are ahead. 

Now here is the critical part. We do not need to visit heaven to believe the same thing for us. The Bible makes it clear that we do not need to fear death. The Bible also makes it clear that glorious things are ahead for us with God. Testimonies of a visit to heaven can be uplifting, but they are never, never, never, the authority on which our faith rests.

As Spirit-led people, let us make sure that we live without fearing death, live knowing that we have a purpose, and live knowing that a glorious future awaits us…based on what God has told us. If we visit heaven, or meet someone who has, those experiences can remind us of God’s word and may even increase our faith. But the word of God must remain our foundation and anchor of authority.

CLOSING

As I have been writing notes for this episode, something is really jumping out at me. We have been talking about near-death experiences where people were not planning on dying. But we also noted that some individuals appear to have reached heaven by means of a vision, or something like that. And this raises a question for us: Is it possible that we can ask to visit heaven through prayer? Or, could we send ourselves? In other words, could we have a planned out-of-body experience where our consciousness leaves our body? Would that be okay to do as a Christian? 

In our next episode we will look at remote viewing and astral body projection. But here is a preview…some of those things I just mentioned, are off-limits.

As always, you can send me comments, suggestions, or questions, by email at glenn@spiritledhope.com, or simply use the Contact Form at spiritledhope.com. You can also send me a one-way text message by going to the episode show notes and clicking on the link with your smart phone. If you find these episodes useful, please spread the word and share them with your friends.

As we think about heaven…

May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope, by the power of the Holy Spirit.  

Until the next episode, take care.

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