Rebel Justice
What is justice? Who does it serve? Why should you care?
When we think about justice, we think about it as an abstract, something that happens to someone else, somewhere else. But justice and the law regulate every aspect of our interactions with each other, with organisations, and with the government.
We never think about it until it impacts our lives, or that of someone close.
Our guests are women with lived experience of the justice system whether as victims or women who have committed crimes; or people at the forefront of civic action who put their lives on the line to demand a better world..
We ask them to share their insight into how we might repair a broken and harmful system, with humanity and dignity.
We also speak with people who are in the heart of the justice system creating important change; climate activists, judges, barristers, human rights campaigners, mental health advocates, artists and healers.
Rebel Justice
103. No, Your Therapist Isn’t A Shaman: What Legal Psychedelic Care Actually Looks Like with Madalyn McElwain & Trevor Ekstrom
What if the safest path to psychedelic healing starts with strong laws, trained facilitators, and honest conversations about risk? We sit down with legal advocates and a licensed psychotherapist to map a responsible route from stigma to structure—one that replaces the shadows of the underground with clarity, ethics, and care.
We unpack how regulation reduces harm and expands access: vetted substances, licensed facilitators, and supportive settings that protect people during intense emotional work. A personal story of loss shows how grief became fuel for drug policy reform, while the Psychedelic Bar Association reveals how lawyers are reimagining their own profession—challenging colonial norms, preventing burnout, and drafting smarter rules for an emerging field. Their committees operate like focused think tanks, shaping legalisation and regulation, intellectual property, litigation strategies, and business practices that centre reciprocity and indigenous stewardship.
On the clinical side, therapist Trevor explains why psychedelics can be powerful tools for depression, anxiety, PTSD, and dissociation, especially when traditional medications plateau. We explore dosing from psycholytic to full, the difference between quick symptom relief and deep structural change, and why integration—not the session itself—often decides the outcome. We also address stigma’s roots in the drug war, racism, and political control, and the hopeful shift driven by research at institutions like Johns Hopkins and new centres for psychedelic law and policy. Safety isn’t hand-waved; it’s designed through screening, containment, supervision, and follow-up, with clear caveats for higher-risk substances.
If you’re curious about how policy, psychotherapy, and ethics can align to make psychedelic care safer and more effective, this conversation offers a realistic blueprint and a humane tone. Subscribe, share with someone who needs a thoughtful take on psychedelics, and leave a review to help others find it. What guardrails matter most to you?
Credits
Produced by Henry Chukwunyerenwa
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Hi, Madeline, before we get into the details (of the Psychedelic Law Association). Why are legal and regulated approaches to psychedelics better than the current prohibition-based models?
Madalyn McElwain:Yeah, that's a great question. I think that moving psychedelics from an underground framework into a more mainstream framework that's backed by science and policy makes plant medicines and other psychedelics more accessible to more people. It helps remove the stigma from the use of psychedelics as healing tools and it provides safer containers and easier access for these substances. It also removes the need to seek out these medicines through the illicit market, which oftentimes comes with its own set of risks. If you are sourcing substances, for example, through the illicit market, you oftentimes won't know the quality, the potency, if there's anything else in that substance. And so these legal and decriminalized frameworks help folks not only access it easier, but it also gives people access to safer medicines, safer products that they can then use in a container that in a set and setting that has someone there that's trained to be a facilitator. So for example, in Colorado, the state of Colorado in the United States, we are creating a legal framework where the state is now licensing facilitators who will administer these medicines to clients and to patients in a setting that's contained, that's safe. They are themselves trained to guide someone through these experiences, which oftentimes can elicit really difficult emotional and psychological states, and that person is there to keep them safe, to keep them contained. And so, yeah, those are just like some of the major benefits, I think, of starting to access these psychedelics in these structures.
Host:That's great. Thank you. And on a personal note, is there something that motivated you to get more involved with this?
Madalyn McElwain:Yeah, so I have been in cannabis and drug policy reform for over a decade now. What initiated my personal journey to where I am today is my mother's battle with terminal cancer. She died 17 years ago on October 1st. And it wasn't until after she passed away that I started to research and realize what medical benefits she could have received from the cannabis plant as far as making her having a higher quality end of life. And so cannabis has a lot of palatative qualities that she could have benefited from to ease her dying. And that catapulted me into wanting to go to law school, into wanting to see change for cannabis specifically, and then these other substances. And so it was really that personal journey of seeing her suffer so greatly through her cancer and the treatments that were available to her, into trying to understand if there were other natural remedies that could have helped ease all of that suffering. And so it started with cannabis. And I also have personal experiences with plant medicines. I've been experimenting with them since I was a teenager. They were always very profound, fun, and healing experiences for me. And so to this day, I continue to use psychedelics one-on-one with my psychotherapist. I use a psychedelic called 5 MEO DMT, and I sit with the medicine in the container of my psychotherapist. I've been able to use that medicine to heal really deeply culturally and personally. And I feel like I would love to see this level of healing accessible to more people.
Host:I'm with you there. Yeah, and I can see how something like that would put you on this pathway. Yeah. Moving on to the next one, what do you see as the main sources of stigma or demonization around psychedelics?
Madalyn McElwain:You know, this theory isn't mine. This is a collective shared understanding, I feel like, for folks who have been working in this field for, you know, for as long or as longer as I have. But, you know, the idea of shifting or expanding your consciousness in a way that allows you to see things in a more holistic and systemic way can truly threaten the oppressive systems that current late-stage capitalism and the patriarchy has put in place to kind of keep some sort of order over people, if that makes sense. I am trying to explain this in a way that can be received by a lot of people because it sounds woo-woo and it's it's kind of, you know, it's a little bit thinking outside of the box per se. But I do think that what the main threat has been of these plant medicines that have been used for thousands of years in all sorts of cultures across the world is that they create this way of thinking, this expansion of consciousness that can threaten the current structures that keep this orderly status quo. And I think that along with all of drug prohibition and its incredibly racist history, you know, our government, in particular, the United States government, has really been able to demonize psychedelics throughout history as a way to control people. So in the 40s and 50s, therapists and doctors, psychologists and psychiatrists were all researching and using psychedelics like LSD and MDMA as a part of their healing modalities, right? As part of their processes to heal folks who were having severe psychiatric issues to help heal couples, and all of that started to become demonized in the 60s and 70s and in the 80s when Nixon declared the war on drugs. But it was because that these substances started to come into the underground, and you started seeing counterculture really take on and incorporate these psychedelics into their society, into their daily life. So you have the counterculture movement of the 60s and 70s with LSD, and it was a threat to the dominant war narrative of that era. And so the government was able to demonize these substances by demonizing the counterculture and those people involved with it. It's the same with cannabis and heroin when the Chinese came over and they were using heroin, for example, uh, or opium, and the blacks and the Hispanics were using cannabis or marijuana. They took the fact that these marginalized communities were using these substances, demonized them, and created this entire war on drugs that just stigmatized all drugs. And psychedelics ended up falling into that.
Host:So yeah, I think you boiled that down really well. I had an idea, but yeah, sometimes it's hard to make that a comprehensive statement. It needs to be like palatable for the broader audience. Okay. So moving on to the next. Can you share examples of communities who have benefited from your organization? Oh, sure.
Madalyn McElwain:So I, you know, don't want to speak for any other community other than the one that I'm a part of. And I think that this is kind of the purpose of why we're here as an organization. But I know that the biggest community to have an impact from the Psychedelic Bar Association is lawyers and other legal professionals. And, you know, one might ask, well, why do lawyers need help? Right? Like we're obviously incredibly privileged individuals. A lot of lawyers are very well off as far as like financially and with resources, but there's a lot of lawyers, including myself, and this is part of why I have become a part of leadership in the PBA, is the legal profession itself is rooted in colonial tradition. And as I think we all know or maybe are becoming to understand, is that colonial tradition is rooted in oppressive systems that are designed to benefit predominantly white males. And so the part of those colonial traditions have created this expectation of lawyers to present in a certain way that is often counter or in conflict with who someone truly is, like genuinely who someone is. And so for me, for example, I found it really difficult to show up as an attorney as an authentic human because I had to put on this act that was in direct conflict with who I was as a person. And it became so hard to control these two parallel identities that I actually stopped practicing law and started working in grassroots nonprofits. And so the Psychedelic Bar Association was my reintroduction into lawyer-dominated spaces with lawyers who I think have had similar experiences in the practice of law. We're expected to know all the answers. We're expected to work all the time, we're expected to be on for our clients and burnout and substance use disorder and suicide is like all of that is rampant within the legal profession. And so lawyers have a really important and vital role in the changing of psychedelic policy in the United States and otherwise. So what we are trying to do and what we've been able to, I think, have an impact in is creating a safe space for lawyers who want to not only just lawyer differently, but to be able to show up as human beings and as lawyers, right? And so we not only are trying to steward the psychedelic field in an ethical way, but we're also trying to nurture this paradigm shift that's happening outside with the changing of psychedelic policy, but to nurture that same paradigm shift within the legal profession itself, which is still an incredibly radical idea given how rooted the legal profession is in that colonial tradition. And so I can say for certain we are making a big impact on lawyers in the United States to be able to find community with other lawyers who are trying to show up more authentically and who are trying to lawyer with more heart, more conscious, and in a more relational way.
Host:That's a great response. Thank you. Can you briefly talk about the framework at the PBA and also if you engage with policymakers, law enforcement, or even medical bodies to change laws and policies? Definitely.
Madalyn McElwain:Yeah. So the Psychedelic Bar Association is a member-based organization, and our members are lawyers and legal professionals working within the psychedelic space, but also uh working outside of the space. And we have six subject matter-specific committees that are comprised of our members. And I like to think of the committees as small think tanks. So you can see which committees we have on our website. For example, we have the Legalization and Regulation Committee, the Intellectual Property Committee, Litigation and Advocacy. So basically these umbrella subject matters, the law that apply in unique ways to the ever-evolving psychedelic space. And so it's our members within the committees that are really doing on-the-ground work, not only within the committees, but outside trying to influence legislation. So the committees will publish materials like guides. So, for example, our corporate forums and business practices committee published a white paper on how to structure for-profit corporations within the psychedelic industry in a more ethical and social enterprise-oriented way. The Legalization and Regulation Committee and other various committees have issued formal statements or signed letters of support for specific psychedelic policies in various states. Our committees are wont to work on drafting model legislation for psychedelic policy that can eventually be used for other states that start to come into the more legal regulated space. For example, so each individual board member also has some involvement as well. So, yeah, we are on an individual level in communication with nonprofits, law enforcement, and things like that. So we really are putting ourselves out there as experts within the space. We hold educational events to educate not just lawyers but the general public on this ever-changing landscape. And we also are really trying to focus on amplifying legacy holder voices and indigenous voices. So the folks who have held and stewarded these medicines for much, much, much, much longer than Westerners have, right? And trying to ensure that we are educating lawyers on what reciprocity is and the international laws like the Nagora Protocol, which are already implemented to create more ethical frameworks in receiving, not just taking the medicines and using the medicines, but giving back to those legacy holders, to those indigenous people who have been stewarding these medicines. So those are kind of some of the things that we're doing as an organization.
Host:Yeah, it's great. And you've answered my next question as well, which was about measurable outcomes that you're seeing and hoping to see.
Madalyn McElwain:Yeah, I think that we're still kind of in our infancy. We just received our 501 status from the federal government. So we haven't had a lot of like hard measurables, but what we are seeing is more anecdotal, I think, as far as our feedback from our members and yeah, and how they are starting to show up within the space. But I think that some of those measurables would be, you know, the educational components, the folks that come and attend our educational events. We have numbers, like for instance, we host a workshop in the biannual psychedelic science conference. And psychedelic science is one of the largest psychedelic gatherings in the world. So just as far as like measurables, we have quite a bit of numbers of people who have attended our educational events. And so I think that's where that will come in.
Host:And have you been seeing shifts in public perception as well? Definitely.
Madalyn McElwain:In the United States specifically, I think that there's a lot of factors as to why public perception is changing. A lot of that has to do with universities dedicating or creating entire new sections or institutions specifically for psychedelics. Like Johns Hopkins University has been a pioneer in psychedelic research. They've been able to publish a lot of studies that were some of the initial studies to come out to show promise of the healing qualities of psychedelics. Harvard Law School just developed its own center for psychedelic law and policy. And so we're getting these huge and well-established American universities dedicating lots of money and resources into studying both psychedelic science and policy. And that is helping shift this more stigmatized narrative around these. And I think that people are understanding that collectively, at least in the United States, we are not well as a society. Our the number of mass shootings that occur even daily here in our country is just absolutely insidious. And yeah. And so there's, I think, this almost desperation that is coming to the forefront of our collective conscious about wow, like we really need some major help in healing this collective generational trauma. And so we are starting to see even historically extremely conservative states like Texas start to dedicate money towards their own research on the potential of the healing qualities of psychedelics. So yeah, it's been phenomenal. And I think the lawyers working in the space, both within and outside of the PBA, are a part of the conversations that are happening in this shift.
Host:Yeah, that is super positive. I wanted to ask you how you would respond to criticisms that psychedelic therapy might be dangerous.
Madalyn McElwain:Yeah, so I would say that psychedelic therapy is not the panacea, right? It's not this magic like tool that you can do once and all of a sudden you're healed, right? I think it's part of a more holistic healthcare plan as far as, you know, like nutrition and psychotherapy, lifestyle changes, like it can really be an amazing tool. But, you know, if you look, there's been a lot of research and science out about the actual physiological dangers of plant medicines, specifically psilocybin, those physiological and biological risks are extremely low. What is risky about these substances are these incredibly powerful emotional and psychological shifts that can happen. And if there is not the proper container and facilitator to hold those experiences, they can be risky. And it's important too, I think, for folks to understand their own mental health history, their own family history around mental health. If there's propensity towards psychosis or things like that, it can make these substances riskier. But I think that that's where these legal frameworks come in to help assist in eliminating these dangers. Like the substances themselves are not inherently dangerous. You can't overdose, for example, on something like psilocybin. I think the caveat to that is ibogaine, because ibogain is an incredibly powerful substance that's apart from your traditional psychedelics. So I will put ibogaine out to the side because that one is very risky without the proper administration. And supervision. But besides that, the plant medicines themselves are inherently risky. It's the container in which they're taken, it's the support and the integration afterwards that needs to be there. And so, again, when you start structuring frameworks are no longer underground, you can start making sure that folks are safe and supported and supervised and are being administered the proper those. And then you're giving the follow-up treatment that they need so that they can start integrating these like incredibly profound experiences into their everyday life, right? So I would counter and say that they're not inherently dangerous, but that these are some of the things that make them riskier. And what we can do to mitigate it is start talking about it, start making them legal, making these structures available so that folks can access them in safe and supported ways.
Host:Yeah, with anything new and experimental, it's best to have guardrails. But that's exactly what the BPA are doing. So you guys are doing great work, and I I couldn't agree more with what you were saying. Coming on to my last question. Do you plan to scale up the work at PBA? Perhaps maybe across borders?
Madalyn McElwain:Yes, I that is absolutely the goal. We would love to have as big of a reach with our mission and impact as we can. The issue that we're running into now, which is, I think, something that every startup nonprofit comes against, is funding. And so we are working on trying to build up our funding to be able to expand our mission, expand our reach. So that is absolutely a goal. I know that we have had international members, like barristers from other countries, join. We had someone in Berlin, we had someone in Australia. So we are gaining some international attention from attorneys across the globe.
Host:But yeah, I think that what our focus on right now would be funding so that we can make our impact greater. Okay, thank you so much. Hi, Trevor. The first question I want to ask you is how did you find yourself as a licensed psychotherapist and what drew you to this line of work?
Trevor Ekstrom:Okay, so a short answer to that. Well, I think the path kind of I was a wayward youth and used psychedelics kind of in adolescence, and I think had a set of experiences that were interesting, powerful. Fast forward quite a few years. I ended up in ayahuasca ceremony while I was in grad school. And I actually hadn't used any kind of substances in a long time, but through a series of kind of ceremonial use of a psychedelic substance, I experienced, call it trauma release or somatic reprocessing while I was in the context of graduate school for becoming a psychotherapist. And so that was kind of an initial interest into how those two worlds converge. Early on in my practicing career, I was trained in a somatic orientation to trauma resolution and processing. And that group of trainers were connected to, some of them were connected to the MAPS trial phase two. And so there was some experimentation and working with MDMA within that group with a somatic model for psychotherapy. So I was also introduced into a combination of MDMA and psychotherapy at that time, and kind of from there really saw just how useful those tools can be and was, you know, fully sold that this is a powerful tool set.
Host:And how long have you been licensed?
Trevor Ekstrom:So I've been fully licensed in the state of Colorado as an LPC, a licensed professional counselor since 2017. That's probably, I think 2017 I would have gotten it, and a licensed addiction counselor in the state of Colorado the same year.
Host:That's great. Thank you. And I wanted to focus on psychedelics for a moment. What are the benefits that you see as a therapist in prescribing psychedelic or psychoactive drugs? And can you describe what illnesses are treated with these different kinds of substances?
Trevor Ekstrom:Yeah. So I would say the primary disorders that are most commonly treated currently with psychedelics are depression, for some of like the studies on psilocybin, amketamine, anxiety, which I would say closely connects to often depressive tendencies, even though it's a different experience, and many things that fall under post-traumatic stress disorders. There's a wider umbrella of what can be used. In my own practice, I've used psychedelics to treat dissociative disorder, which would fall under kind of that trauma umbrella. So a lot of different diagnoses, I would say, come out of traumatic experiences that may not always present as PTSD. Oftentimes, those can be treated similarly, and psychedelics I found to be really good tools.
Host:So you described anxiety and depression, and also uh the third one.
Trevor Ekstrom:So dissociative disorders or things that fall to stress disorders or post-traumatic stress.
Host:And another question on that: when treating something like depression, how do psychedelics compare with more traditionally prescribed drugs like SSRIs?
Trevor Ekstrom:Now, I'm not gonna speak to efficacy, but I think one of the reasons why people are orienting to psychedelics is I work with a good number of folks who maybe have been prescribed, let's say, an antidepressant for anywhere from years to often decades, and there seems to be limited use over time. For folks where an antidepressant or a psychotropic medication works well for them and relieves symptoms, that's amazing. I think I tend to see folks where that has not worked. Maybe at one point it managed symptoms, but it is taking something generally daily over many years that loses efficacy and can lose efficacy. Psychedelics are not an ongoing treatment and not something that somebody needs to take constantly in order to reduce symptoms, but have the potential to help people get at core issues, kind of at the root of what's causing distress or what's causing symptoms as opposed to treating the symptoms.
Host:Yeah, I understand. And in terms of doses, do you deal with microdoses or how big would they get?
Trevor Ekstrom:Now, so in let's say the therapy rumor therapy session, not working with a microdose, that folks can kind of do that. That tends to be not daily, but that is a consistent practice for someone who decides to microdose to augment their lives or to treat symptoms in therapy, using kind of some folks will use the phrase psycholytic, so something where you notice the effects, but it's not extremely strong, all the way to a full psychedelic dose. So, you know, a pretty intense level of intoxication. I would say I work in that range if somebody is doing a psychedelic-assisted session. How to choose that orientation is really case by case independent on someone's comfort and the particular needs of the session. Yeah, so it really just falls in there.
Host:Yeah, I've never heard of that term, psycholytic. That's cool. And just going back a little, could you cover again the benefits that you see from these substances? Like how do they directly affect these clients of yours?
Trevor Ekstrom:Yeah. So I I would put the benefits kind of in two categories. And in my practice, I'm orienting more strongly to one of those. And I'll talk about the other first, which is you know, direct and immediate symptom alleviation. This is where some of the research on ketamine as an intravenous or an intramuscular injection as a fast-acting, rapid treatment for severe depressive symptoms. Some of the psilocybin research out there points at immediate and spontaneous shifts in mood in symptom sets. Those can be true. You know, ketamine often is that for folks in a severe depressive episode. Sometimes those changes can be permanent. I would say with the ketamine administration, generally, my observation it is most certainly not. Sometimes with psilocybin, those changes can be prolonged. So those are wonderful effects. I would say, in my practice, I am not, and I tell people this at the front, we are not trying to immediately relieve your symptoms of distress, anxiety, depression, you know, trauma symptoms. What we are trying to do, and the benefit that I see in different ways, a variety of psychedelics, is that they can help shift somebody's normal kind of operating consciousness to allow access to repressed feelings, repressed memory. They can help somebody access perspective taking in a different way, can kind of change their frame of reference for how they see themselves in their lives in a temporary way, but that can help actually loosen some of those habitual patterns in conscious and unconscious mind. Often strong access to a really repressed emotion and repressed or dissociative memory.
Host:Yeah, that was very comprehensive. Thank you. And diving a little deeper here, because the view covers a lot of issues surrounding women and how they impact women in particular. Have you noticed any effects that are different in women or what impact you see in your women patients that are unique?
Trevor Ekstrom:Gosh, you know, I would say that I work largely with like women or female identified, you know, clients or patients. I mean, if anything, you know, I don't know that this is necessarily psychedelic specific, but oftentimes women have a greater tendency to get out of their heads and kind of into their emotional bodies or into their bodies, trusting something in that process more readily than men overall. You know, I think female-identified, female-bodied people tend to more often have been victims of sexual abuse, a sexual assault. It certainly happens for men, but uh because of that, you know, I see the impact and ability that trauma work, including psychedelics, has in a powerful and positive way for women.
Host:Yeah, yeah, I understand. That's great. Very specific question. Thank you. And moving on, why do you think there's still so much stigma when some of these substances come from such ancient healing practices?
Trevor Ekstrom:Why do I think there's so much stigma still? You know, probably if I were to like, what do I think it is? You know, there was a campaign, you know, certainly in the US, but I think not just the US, a campaign in the 60s and 70s onward, you know, towards prohibition and really a misinformation campaign. I believe there are still remnants of the politics there. And I would say that probably also racism, you know, the denigration of ancient traditions and brown people in certainly the US, you know, majority culture and political culture for a long time. So I would say those would be my two guesses as to why stigma still exists.
Host:Yeah, um I spoke with Madeline as well, and she said a similar thing. I know it's a very broad question, and there are many elements to the response. So yeah, I appreciate your response. And then uh, so given the known benefits and clinical trials that show that these below-the-line substances are helping people, what can we do to increase uptake and reduce the stigma?
Trevor Ekstrom:Well, I think, you know, to kind of that question really connects maybe my words with the larger article, which is reputable organizations, groups of people with professional affiliations who are, right, they're not hippies doing drugs under bridges or fully uh overtly counter-cultural that can kind of be pointed at and dismissed by the larger, maybe more conservative culture. But those organizations that can present scientific data, that can present legal arguments as a way to continue to have a respected, you know, or not so easily dismissed voices promoting in coherent and articulated ways why these things are actually powerful and safe and effective, you know, versus scary and illicit.
Host:Yeah, yeah. And I think you're doing amazing work, by the way. Lastly, I wanted I wanted to ask: has there been any art created by your clients while taking these substances? And do you think drugs can help with artistic output?
Trevor Ekstrom:Now, to the second part of that, absolutely, you know, based on the structure of the sessions that I do, no, like nobody creates art, you know, kind of while under the influence, you know, in a session. I have had clients who, as part of their integration processes, use both verbal art forms, such as like kind of a free write or poetry, and also some visual art. And I do know some art therapists who also integrate ketamine or psychedelic work, where art is a huge portion of how someone would process or make sense of or be inspired by those psychedelic states. Yeah, I am fully a believer that the creativity or the openness, uh kind of expansiveness that is often associated and experienced in psychedelic states uh is great for art.
Host:Yeah, I think it's a viable pathway, like you said, for healing and for artistic output as well. And you've answered these questions wonderfully. Thank you so much.
Trevor Ekstrom:Yeah, you're so welcome.
Maile:You've been listening to Rebel Justice, a podcast from The View magazine. If you'd like to support our work, you can subscribe to The View for just 20 pounds a year and receive four digital editions and one print issue. Follow us on social media. You can find us on Instagram at the underscore view underscore magazine and on LinkedIn, X, and TikTok. For press or general inquiries, email press at theview magazine.org. And if this episode mattered to you, please share it.