108. Justice Starts Before The Courtroom

Justice doesn’t begin with a verdict; it starts in classrooms, homes, and everyday choices that shape who gets pulled into the system long before an arrest. We sit down with lawyer and educator Courtney Teasley to explore how prevention beats punishment when communities are armed with the right knowledge, resources, and strategy.

Courtney traces a path from growing up in a disproportionately affected community to coaching mock trial teams and practising criminal defence for over a decade. Along the way, she exposes stark inequities between well-resourced private schools and students juggling food and housing stress. We unpack three missing literacies—financial, civic, and legal—that leave people “defenseless” even before they meet a lawyer, and we examine how over-policing in schools, heightened suspensions, and prison-like routines feed the school-to-prison pipeline.

At the heart of this conversation is MFN: Mindset, Finesse, and Non-Negotiables. Courtney shows how learning the rules of the system changes outcomes, how to navigate power with care while asserting your rights, and why bright-line boundaries—“I don’t consent,” “I want a lawyer”—must be practised until they’re second nature. We also confront a hard truth: financial stability is a prerequisite for social justice. Courtney explains how underfunded efforts burn out, why sustainable revenue protects independence, and how coaching legal professionals to build resilient practices translates into more impact without martyrdom.

You’ll hear about partnerships with advocacy groups and universities, a growing legal literacy curriculum for schools, and her book series The Easy Way to Learn Your Rights, including a deep dive on the Fifth Amendment. We close with practical resources—from parent guides to an Underground Rights Tour—that help communities act earlier than harm. If you care about disrupting the pipeline, equipping young people, and funding solutions that last, this conversation offers a clear roadmap and tools you can use today.

If this resonates, follow the show, share with someone who needs it, and leave a review to help more listeners find these resources.

Sound edited by Jamie Warren-Green (Umbrella Audio)

Transcript

Courtney’s Roots And Realisations

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Today on Rebel Justice, we're stepping back from the courtroom to look at where justice really begins. Long before arrest, trial, or sentencing, there are systems, gaps, and decisions that quietly shape who ends up pulled into the criminal justice system and who doesn't. In this episode, we're joined by Courtney Teasley, whose work focuses on prevention rather than punishment, on how education, financial stability, and early intervention can disrupt the pipeline to incarceration before it starts. This is a conversation about power strategy and what justice could look like if we stopped reacting late rather than and started acting early. To start us off, many people think justice begins in the courtroom. So, Courtney, why do you believe it actually starts much earlier than that?

Education Gaps And Unequal Mock Trial

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Oh, well, first of all, thank you for having me on. I really am happy to be here and was excited that we were able to get this together. And so let me just say that I know justice starts before the uh courtroom just because of my history, right? I have actually, prior to being a lawyer, I, you know, grew up in the same environments that many people are from. I call it the damn community, D-A-M-M, and that's the disproportionately affected, marginalized minority community. And so um, one thing I kept realizing was, oh my gosh, hold on, wait a minute. Once I became a lawyer and I was representing all these people, and it was like, hold on, they don't know this stuff. And I was like, wait a minute, where's the breakdown? And I found out it was because I went to law school, right? And actually started learning the law. And then I started uh working inside the uh public school system that had educated me. And I started coaching mock trial, had been a sub there. And I remember finding out, I was uh teaching uh mock trial, and we were going against all of these other schools because my school was a school from what I call the damn community. It was a considered a high priority school. You know, you got extra money to go there because it was supposed to be a bad school or whatever. And I was we would go against all of these other schools in mock trial competition here in the county. And what I realized was I was like, oh man, hold on, this is unfair. These people, like, you know, they pay thousands of dollars to go to a private school. They have a lawyer on a staff who teaches them how to be little mini lawyers, right? What whereas my students are bas barely, you know, eating that day and think and trying to figure out where they may be sleeping. And so I recognize we just did not have that same education that others were getting. And I started looking deeper and I saw that okay, we're not educated in three big subjects that affected us systemically. And um, it was financial literacy, right? You don't teach us how to make money legally, right? It was civics, it you don't teach us much outside of, oh, go vote, right? You don't really teach us how to be um actual citizens, how to take uh part in this process holding officials accountable included, right? And then finally, you don't teach me legal literacy, you tell me ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking the law, but wait a minute, right? Flag on the field. You never taught me the law. And so that's how I figured out oh, hey, we we're disarmed before we ever get to the courtroom because once they become a uh, you know, I was a criminal defense lawyer for over 13 years. And so once I got them, uh, anybody who had been charged, even it doesn't matter who they were, they could be a well-off person, you know, a person for a marginalized person, they could be someone who's not. But at the end of the day, they didn't have the education. They were always relying on me to kind of tell them what to do versus aiding in their defense, you know, they were just defenseless. And so that's why I created my book series, The Easy Way to Learn Your Rights.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

So, based on your background and your experiences, you were able to see through all of that confusion that really makes marginalized communities feel powerless. Yeah, thanks for covering that as well. Can you explain how people often enter the incarceration pipeline long before arrest or conviction? And can you also talk about some of the early warning signs or gaps that communities often overlook?

Three Literacies We Don’t Teach

School-To-Prison Pipeline Mechanics

SPEAKER_01 4:34

So, first things first, how do they enter the justice system early? Enter the school to prison pipeline, right? Which is what I was just kind of explaining to you, how that a kind of um thing is, first of all, we're undereducated, right, in many subjects, but then we are over policed. And so you'll find in these same schools we have SROs, which are school resource officers, who are um police, right? And then so instead of giving those schools the resources, they need some of those emotional intelligence, right? Yeah, resources and things of that nature. Um, you'll find that they'll just, you know, trade it out for a cop, right? And then that leaves a whole that opens a whole nother bag, right? Because now you have a student who may just be in trouble over something um simple, or this cop maybe knows them, you know, it has this rapport with them, and so they're able to then, you know, elicit things from them, get them to weigh their rights. Anywho, it it it's a cycle, right? And it starts in the school, and so you'll find in the school system that uh black children, minority children in the US are, you know, uh gonna go gonna be incarcerated way more than the majority here, right? And so, same thing in our prison system. Um, even though only black Americans only make up a very small amount of the US population, we are overrepresented in the prison system. And so that begins in the schools, right? And we're suspended at higher rates, right? We're disciplined different, and so um it's a systemic issue, and so that is how that um students get into the justice system really early, right? If you couple that with that lack of education and lack of knowledge, um, it's a straight pipeline, right? It's create, and even our schools are very prison-like. You know what I mean? Where uh they they would have um, if you go to some of the harder schools, they would have, you know, the machines, the x-ray machines to see what you have coming in, or you know, you have to go to lunch at a certain point of time, you have to be in straight lines. It's just not conducive for learning. It's more, you know, I know uh my school that I went to, they took us on a field trip to the freaking prison. You know, they took us on a field trip to the prison. And I'm young, I didn't know any, like I'm in high school, like I'm a senior, and it's like I didn't know that this was, you know, it was crazy. We're laughing with our friends and stuff, and you know, you got guys that are like, I don't know, they're trying to scare us straight, or it was the craziest thing ever. So I look back now. That's not okay. You know what I mean? And so, but you know, I laugh about these types of things because you gotta laugh to keep from crying. I mean, it was just that's literally the life that so many experience here. I'm a lawyer, and so I feel like that's really one of the only reasons I have the understanding that I have is because I had got the schooling that I got and I represented so many people in this realm. So that's how people, um, that's how, you know, the system starts really early. They get into the justice system early. And then some early warning signs are oh my god, all those things I just named, which are, you know, looking, okay. Are they taking the students on field trips to the prison? Are they doing uh are they over policing them? Are they, you know, routinely um just questioning them and you know, small char uh giving them small charges, even though it's not their children and it's something, maybe a fight, right? That should have been, you know, they got more punished than the others. So it's just like those types of things you have to be, you you have to look in. You really need active, active parents. And the problem is they um in America, you know, poor people in general, people who are not of well, of significant means, are always just trying to keep their head above water. Like I'm just trying to live right now, right? And I'm just trying to make it from day to day. Like I'm working, I'm overworking, I'm getting underpaid. My child is at school, right? If I I can't really take off the leave, I can't do all these different things. So, you know, and I can't really participate in the civic process meaningfully because I'm so busy. I can't even stay uh up to date on what's happening, what's going on, making informed decisions. So all of those things are super early signs that um yeah, the criminal justice system is working as it is was intended.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

Yeah, yeah, you uh explained that really well, the pipeline. Um and those circumstances, um, basically all stacked against black and brown students and communities.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

Um, so going to MFN, um you've developed the MFN framework, which stands for Mindset Finesse and Non-Negotiables. Can you break that down a little further for our listeners?

Over-Policing And Prison-Like Schools

SPEAKER_01 9:42

Oh, I absolutely can. So MFN, like, all right, I had basically um did all the things, right? I practiced for 13 years, I educated in, you know, the college systems, I unseated a judge, I coached lawyers, you know, I won award. I just did all the things over there. And I was like, okay, this is great, but it's like I can only help just one person at a time if I stay here, right? And just keep doing this one-on-one representation. And so after I unseated that judge and we made Nashville history, I was like, oh, I want way more of this, right? I think we need way more lawyers that have the option of going into private practice, and then it gives them way more impact and income, right? And so if they have that and they feel free, then they're likely to challenge more systems. They're likely not to worry about where their money's coming from, that oh, the state's paying me, so I can't really speak against them, I can't hold this person accountable. And so, anywho, I needed to help free people, and so I created the MFN framework. And again, it is very, you know, everything about, and I mean, you all know, you know, I've been on a Euro trip, um, coming on another one this coming up here. I'll be in the south of France, like I love Europe. And so you guys, you guys know, I don't think you have an idea of the life, you know, what's going on. So I say that to just say that in this realm, you need something that is going to shake you awake. And I know, you know, so MFN can be a little in your face, but it was created to open people's eyes to what was operating right in front of them in plain sight, yet no one was doing anything about it. And so we um are very intentional about speaking the language of what I call, you know, again, the damn D A M M community, which is African-American English. And so our framework is a result of that as well. And we get straight to the heart of it. These three things are utilized across different things that we provide, which is the advocacy training, the lawyer training, and the legal literacy training. And so in here, we get into your mindset, right? Because the biggest thing first is understanding what's happening, what is the system, what is the name of the game, right? So I I literally created this from how I attack cases, how I fought for so long. Like you got you can't how I train people. Like, I mean, you you can't win if you don't know the rules, right? And so your mindset has to understand the rules, and then you have to adopt that, right? Which is here in America, innocence until proven guilty is the name of the game, right? That it those are the rules, and so you have to start fighting immediately as you are accused of anything, or if you are ever in a situation, you your mindset needs to be in the right space and understanding why you have the right to fight that finesse is because being a brown person in America, you have to move with finesse because you know you're you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't, if you're just being honest, right? Especially during this administration. So, you know, then in non-negoti non-negotiables, you know, we have to have big, big boundaries that we don't come off uh come off of. Meaning, these are our rights. This is this is what we stand on, this is what we know. And I don't care what you're saying to me, I don't care how you know many times you retwist it and rephrase it and say it again. My I'm standing on my boundary, right? I said no, I said I don't consent. I said I want a lawyer, whatever. And so that's why I created that framework, right? To really just gather people and help them understand in my trainings um how to effectively fight back. And so I've done it all over. I've done it with uh organization, advocacy organizations, I've done it with churches. Um, uh we have actually just started working with, we have a curriculum that we just started working with schools on, and just teaching children when they're young, you know, how to advocate on behalf of themselves. And you just really don't understand how important that is until you understand the history of African Americans and understand how we were raised here in America, and then to understand that our we were always told to look, just stay alive, you know. So that means if you have to give up your rights, give up your rights, you know what I mean? So if you don't worry about anything, just you know, stay alive, don't don't argue back, don't, don't show any kind of um resistance, don't say any, you know, don't you you never were encouraged to utilize your rights because for fear that something may happen to you, right? And so that's why the importance of this framework.

SPEAKER_00 14:21

So you've designed this framework to specifically help individuals and organizations intervene earlier.

Early Warning Signs And Parent Barriers

SPEAKER_01 14:28

Absolutely. Thank and listen, I thank you so much, Elena, because I am very I'm a lawyer still, and so I'm very wordy. And every time you sum it up in that one sentence, I am standing. I stand. I don't know how to do that.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

I also get lost. Don't worry, in my own uh words. But um, yeah, um, thanks for explaining that. And um do you have um like a favorite example or maybe like a recent partnership that you entered into and it turned out really well? Is that something you can talk about?

SPEAKER_01 15:01

Right now I have a potential partnership on the horizon with a couple of organizations, like an organization, um, the Whitney Plantation down in New Orleans. We're kind of in conversation right now about collaborating. And so that's great. And but other organizations that I have um collaborated with as of yet, I have collaborated with uh a cannabis founder here in America. So we collaborated. I did some posting with them, and then I collaborate with the advocacy organizations all the time. Like last year, my I guess well, that'd be a big pretty big one. I collaborated with a historically black college and university here in Nashville called American Baptist College, and it's actually where John Lewis went. You know, he is well known here in um Nashville and the US, he's being an American activist. And so um, I partnered with them to bring a lecture last year for their Garnet Neighbor uh series called Advocating for the Least of Us, how churches can have a greater role in helping fight mass incarceration. So I think that would probably be my favorite partnership uh uh thus far.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

Thanks for sharing that. No problem. Um, moving on. Um you argue that financial stability is a prerequisite for social justice. Why do you think that money is such a critical part of lasting change?

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Oh my God, Elena, thank you for this. Set it up. Listen, girl, that one is huge. Um, so money is huge in this realm if you want to be effective, right? And so a lot of times in the social justice realm here in America, what you're gonna find is um people are going to have some good ideas. They're gonna come up with some things, they're gonna do a couple of things, but when you come back and you need it later on, and I would I would know this because I have practiced for so long. So a lot of these organizations that will pop up with new things that they were doing, I would try to come back and utilize them again with my clients, and maybe they weren't there anymore or they didn't have the funding anymore. And so that's ineffective, right? When you are, yeah, you've created something great, but it's like, okay, well, you know, where is it? What's going on with it? And so when in here here in America, a lot of times we are just told, you know, we're made to feel that if you want to help your community, you need to do it for free. You need to do it, work long hours, you know, you need to, you know, just be willing to sacrifice, you know, your life. And that leads to burnout, I can tell you that for a fact, right? That leads to burnout, and then you get good people who have fought for so long, they leave. They just don't do anything anymore. And so if we truly want to make real change and put a dent in this systemic harm, we need the adequate resources to sustainably do so and not just have these one-offs, you know, or performative type things that pop up from time to time to, you know, fit a need. Like George, you know, when George Floyd died, there was a whole lot of people all over the world, you know, who were concerned at that time because they had to see that happen. However, comma, you know, we now know that almost all of the companies that were excited about all of that stuff have repealed that stuff now. So it's just like a fad that goes on when you don't have the resources to continue it.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

You actually beat me to my follow-up question, which was how do you challenge the idea that justice work must involve burnout or sacrifice?

The MFN Framework Explained

SPEAKER_01 18:44

And there you go. You need some real sustainable money, right? And so that's why I'm a certified business coach. So it wasn't enough for me just to coach lawyers to learn how to make a lot of money. I needed them to know how to do it sustainably, right? They could have the more income they have, the more impact they can have without burning out. And that is clear.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

Longevity. Yes. Great. We um are on to our last question now. Oh wow. Um, so if someone listening wanted to take one meaningful step towards prevention, what resources or tools would you recommend that people explore?

SPEAKER_01 19:20

Oh yeah, oh yeah, that's a good one. So I have um, first of all, just email me, right? Like email me at the blacklawgirl at gmail.com and um put resource in the caption and I will send you over resources. I have plenty of lead magnets, right? We I have five mistakes parents make when their children encounter the police. I have one that is seven-way churches can disrupt mass incarceration. I have one that's with five ways to break free and actively resist harmful systems. We have resources. So connect with us. You can go over to M F N, E-M-E-F-F-E-N.com, and you'll be able to see all the work we're doing. You'll see our book series. We're doing a tour. So we'll be doing an um underground rights tour, going to different cities and teaching their rights. Um, so uh, and not just their rights, again, within knowing just your rights, we're actually teaching advocacy, how to advocate on behalf of yourself. So reach out and I will send you uh find out what resource you need, and I will send it right over to you.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

That book tour sounds amazing. Congratulations.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

Thank you so much. We finally uh published uh book two last year. So we had book one since 2023. Book two is chopped full of rights, it's dealing with the Fifth Amendment. So oh my god, thank you. It was a it's like a it's like a weight being lifted off your shoulders, it just takes so long, you know?

SPEAKER_00 20:53

What are those books titled?

SPEAKER_01 20:54

The easy way to learn your rights, and so you can only get those at in our shop. And so you can go to em dot com. That is mfn.com, and you will be able to you'll click the little link and you'll see Easy Way to Learn Your Rights book bundle. Go straight there, you'll learn all about it. You can see a sneak peek inside the book, you can see our cute little character, our law girl, she's so sweet, and you can just get an idea of the information that we're teaching at this time frame.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

Amazing. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

No problem, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

What we've heard today is a reminder that justice isn't only about what happens after harm, it's about what we build, teach, and protect long before the system ever gets involved. If this conversation resonated with you, take a moment to reflect on where prevention shows up in your community and where it doesn't. Change doesn't always start in institutions. Often it starts with knowledge, resources, and the courage to do things differently. Thank you for listening to Rebel Justice. You can find this episode along with others wherever you get your podcast. Just a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a