110. Lady Edwina Grosvenor Scholarship & Parasto Hakim Interview - Education That Breaks Cycles

Education can be a turning point or a locked door, and too often we design universities to keep the “wrong” people out. We sit down with Anne-Marie Day from Manchester Met to ask what higher education should do for people with lived experience of the justice system, and why scholarships are not a nice extra but a concrete part of decarceration, prevention, and reducing reoffending.

We get specific about the obstacles justice-involved students face: disrupted schooling, missing qualifications, housing pressure, lack of ID, and the simple exhaustion of trying to rebuild a life. We also talk about what works when universities take a holistic view, from mentoring and pastoral support to smarter timetabling that reflects real lives. For women in particular, childcare and caring responsibilities can decide whether study is possible, so targeted support has to be practical, respectful, and led by choice.

Then the conversation shifts across borders. Parasto Hakim shares how she helped build a community-led network of secret schools in Afghanistan after the Taliban ban on girls’ education, expanding from one home classroom to dozens of safe learning spaces. She explains how WhatsApp coordination, Teams classes, skills training, and trauma support help girls and women protect hope, build livelihoods, and refuse the label of “victim”.

If this moved you, subscribe, share the episode with someone who cares about justice and education, and leave us a review with the one idea you want universities and policymakers to act on next.

Audio edited by Jamie Warren-Green at Umbrella Audio 

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introductions

Host 0:07

Fantastic. So, Dr. Anne-Marie and Rachel, thank you so much for uh being here. To start, um, Anne-Marie, could you please briefly introduce yourself and the role that you have at um the university?

SPEAKER_04 0:22

Yeah, sure. My name is Anne-Marie Day. I'm a senior lecturer and deputy director of the Center for Crime and Youth Justice Research. Um, and I am based in the School of Uh Sociology and Criminology. Um, and I do a combination of research around criminal justice and youth justice matters, and also teach across a number of modules on the undergraduate criminology degree.

Host 0:45

Perfect. Thank you so much. And uh Rachel, it's also really nice to have you here as well. Uh, could you also tell me a little bit about your role and how you support the university?

SPEAKER_00 0:55

Yeah, so I work in the press team and I share this role with Rachel Toll, who you've been in touch with as well. Um, and we work across arts and humanities and health and education, um to support our academics and um deal with like reputational issues for the university.

Host 1:10

My first question has to do um has to do with the link between education and uh reduced reoffending. Um so, from your perspective, what role do you think that universities should play in supporting decarceration efforts?

SPEAKER_04 1:26

I think that universities should do a lot more than they currently do, and it's it's a real privilege to work at Manchester Met who are kind of leading the way in this, really, in terms of offering scholarships to undergraduate students because I think it's really key that you know the barriers to going to university for you know students, young people, adults who have got lived experience of the justice system um, you know, uh throughout their education and are particularly um kind of concentrated at the university level. We see you know very few students coming through that have got lived experience of the justice system, of care, etc. Um, and I think that universities, you know, they do they do have a civic and social responsibility towards the most vulnerable in society to ensure that they are given and afforded the same opportunities as everybody else to you know reach their full potential. Um so yeah, I think this this is groundbreaking, but it it's it and it's been a long time coming. And hopefully, you know, it will it will pave the way for other universities to follow suit as well, um, in terms of you know recognizing this need and offering additional financial support um to students that really need it.

Host 2:42

Certainly, yeah, I I completely, I completely agree. I was talking with one of my colleagues about how it's the this idea moving uh beyond universities just being a site of social mobility, but more sites of prevention. So you kind of, yeah, I think are leading into that. Does that framing resonate with you? And if so, where do you think the scholarship fits in this?

SPEAKER_04 3:05

Well, I think the challenges facing, you know, young adults who are trying to move away from offending and and and and you know, kind of go on that dissistance journey, as it were, are are absolutely phenomenal. Um, you know, often there's there's financial barriers, there's issues around accommodation, getting ID, um, accessing education, having the right qualifications to get into university because of a disrupted education. So I just feel that um anything that we can do to support that in terms of aiding that general social mobility and doing what we can to um not even level the playing field, because I'm not sure that we'll get we'll get we'll do that anytime soon, but just that to move, take some baby steps towards that journey and moving forward in that process has got to be a good thing.

Real Barriers To Getting A Degree

Host 3:53

Yeah, definitely, definitely. Um, yeah, I I think yeah, connected to that, um, of course, um people with lived experience in the justice system have undeniable um differences um and um difficulties in accessing higher education. Um, children of incarcerated mothers, for example, face some of the highest um adverse childhood experience rates. Um, how, uh if you know, of course, how does the scholarship, uh this one specifically, account for the structural disadvantages that recipients may face? For example, in terms of support or additional um support?

SPEAKER_04 4:33

Yeah. I mean, I think, I mean, Manchester Met, I think it I think it does have one of the highest rates in the country um in terms of having children, for example, who've got care experience and that that are first-time um students that um in their families go to university. So we've kind of got a track record already of taking a more holistic view of a student's background in education. So, you know, a lot of the traditional kind of Russell group universities will want, you know, 3A levels, grade A, and if not, you don't get in. But actually, we recognise that a lot of students, their life experience, their education may be a little bit more disrupted. But actually, when you bring in those students and really look after them and value every element of their life that they're bringing to the table in terms of their education, they can actually make for some of the um some of our best students in terms of not just the assignments that they produce and the grades that they get, but the people that they become to then move on into um employment afterwards. And I'm currently teaching a final semester, final year module to over 200 sociology and criminology students. And you often find that the students in the room that maybe didn't come through the traditional route, but um have had quite a lot of pastoral support from the university and are now coming to the end of that journey when they're making contributions in the sessions and they're drawing on some lived experience, some of their own adversities and their academic knowledge, they they are some of the most powerful contributions, and I can see that they will go straight into employment, potentially within the criminal justice system, and really kind of um be powerful advocates and really supportive workers as they move move on from their degree. So um yeah, I think there's a lot that we offer and that that we will offer with these scholarships, particularly the um the mentor that we're planning to bring in um to support these students, um, and and hopefully, you know, that those that are successful in the scholarship and others who who are who have also got lived experience will have a really positive journey, like a lot of our students already do.

Host 6:46

Yeah, that I mean I'm so I'm so thrilled to hear that. Um is there a specific way, like a specific way that you see these students becoming very successful? Is there something like a quality that they have specifically that makes these contributions so powerful?

SPEAKER_04 7:05

I wouldn't say a specific quality. What I would say is the fact that they are wanting to go to university, the fact that they're applying, they're stepping into quite an alien, quite intimidating environment. You know, they already do have a lot of qualities. They're brave, they're resilient, they are eager to make a difference. Um, and I think as a university, it's our job to firstly identify them, recognize their strengths, and then get alongside them to support them in terms of how to build on those and build their confidence, but also potentially recognize any of the practical barriers that they might be facing to complete their degree, you know, financial, it might be accommodation, etc. So I think there's a there's a dual process that we have. But I think in terms of qualities, I think it's probably not one specific thing, but that resilience and that vision that they've got for themselves, and how can we assist them in um in moving forward and achieving that?

Host 8:01

Yeah, I yeah, I think that's that's really wonderful, and I can totally imagine that. Um, so I actually, so our our uh um magazine has a lot to do with uh women specifically and their lived experience in the justice system. So I know that the scholarship uh is open to all, but I would like to ask a little bit about um yeah, the disproportionate challenges that women faced if they have lived experience in the justice system. Is there or how might this scholarship specifically support women?

SPEAKER_04 8:33

Yeah, no, I think that's a great question. And I think you know it's it's something that um we've seen with students already. So those that do have lived experience in the justice system, um, that they're you know, female students, um, they typically have childcare challenges, potentially they may have children, they may have um, you know, families that they need to support. They're typically so they've got caregiving responsibilities, potentially also working, um, if they've not got a partner with them to support their families, getting them to school. You know, I had I had one student who didn't have lived experience of the system, but she was bringing her baby into lectures last year because she was breastfeeding and she was like, you know, is that okay? And I was like, My God, yes. And I made sure that she had a space to do that where she felt comfortable and safe and so on. Um, so yeah, I mean, we we we do whatever we can to support students and particularly uh young women, because we know that they do face additional challenges and additional barriers that are often related to some of the more gendered um challenges that they face around, you know, if they're a mother and working and got these additional responsibilities. Um and I know that the way the university, particularly in sociology and criminology, the way they timetable teaching tries to reflect that. So, you know, if they've got one module that's four hours teaching a week, they'll try and block that in one day. Um, so that maybe students only have to come in like two or three days a week to do the teaching rather than it being spread out over five days, an hour here, an hour there to kind of suit the needs of the of the lecturers. It's around what are the needs of the students, and I've seen that as a real step change since I've moved to to working at Manchester Met two years ago. And I think again, that is very much taking account of some of the specific needs of um of those that are in caregiving positions, and we know that disproportionately falls on women.

Host 10:27

Great, great, and it's so nice that they have such uh supportive lecturers like you and your colleagues that can that see that and that can support them. Um I you kind of touched on this just a little bit already, but what responsibility specifically do you think that your university has in dismantling these inequalities for women that have lived experience in the justice system?

Philanthropy That Shifts Institutions

SPEAKER_04 10:52

I think that I think Manchester Met has already put itself out there as wanting to lead the way in this area. So I think by you know having that partnership with Lady Edwina Grosvenor, who is obviously a big advocate for um supporting women who are leaving custody, you know, with the with the Hope Street Centre and a lot of the other amazing stuff that she does. And then by you know funding these scholarships, um, you know, it which again is something she didn't have to do, but she's done and done it in partnership with the university. I think that we've already put ourselves out there as kind of um leading the way in this area. So I think by doing that, we're taking on that responsibility. And obviously, we hope that other universities are going to follow suit because you know this is something that should be offered nationally, um, and it's something that all universities should be offering, regardless of you know what what background their students come from. Um so I think it's something that's shared, but I think we're definitely leading the way, and as a result of that, we're kind of taking on that mantle.

Host 11:54

Yeah, I I completely agree. Um, actually, since you brought up a lady at Wiena, um the program is being supported by her, how can or does philanthropic leadership like this um have the potential or does it catalyze wider institutional change uh within universities?

SPEAKER_04 12:14

We'd hope so, wouldn't you? I mean, this this for me, this is something, you know, if I was in a a privileged position where I had access to those who, you know, have the have the decisions and so they're in a position to make um decisions that can impact on people's lives. And I also had access to the resources, I would be wanting to make that difference. And I feel that um we're in a really you know privileged position to have that partnership with Lady Edwina Grosvenor. Um, so again, you know, philanthropic kind of missions that fund research but also fund scholarships into these areas are absolutely crucial. And you know, my other kind of hat is that I do a lot of research around children in the justice system, and often, you know, a lot of the funders that we go to, you know, they're they're funded by philanthropists that are often unnamed, but they allow for really important research to take place that we can then use to try and directly influence government. But having people that are willing to be named and come out and say, look, I'm funding this, and they have those, you know, those direct links to people in positions of power, I think is an extra layer of of influence that that we shouldn't we shouldn't be frightened to use. And you know, it's been great that Lady Edwina has been you know doing media interviews about this and trying to shine a light on this issue. Um, you know, and at the weekend in in the time she was calling for you know issues of criminology and crime and justice to be on the curriculum, which I completely agree with. Um, you know, when I speak to my children that are kind of university and secondary school age, when I talk to them about what I'm doing and I relate it to life, they find it really interesting. And they're like, why don't we learn about this at school? You know, this is something we need to know about. It's almost more relevant to life than some of the other stuff we're learning. Um, so I think, yeah, there's a there's a lot of there's a lot of elements to this. I could talk about it all day, as you can imagine, Sophia, but I'll stop there.

Host 14:12

Oh, but I'm so interested in as well. I could also just talk the whole day about any of these questions. I, yeah, you touched on this as well, and I think um this type of leadership and influence really plays into this question. But how are there any specific ways that you see that maybe are already being done or not, um, that the scholarship can become part of a lasting shift of how all universities engage with justice-involved communities? So to make sure that this isn't just a one-off charitable intervention.

Measuring Impact Beyond Employment Data

SPEAKER_04 14:45

Yeah, I'd say so. I think I think it's really important that we and we will be doing, and and that's part of the reason why we funded this mentor role to support all students that have got justice experience. Um, but I think it's important that as we're we're we're funding these scholarships and as we're providing this extra support, that we're really gathering that data about what needs the students have. Because I hope that there'll be some even now that are doing their degree that haven't made themselves known to the university as those that have got justice experience. So I'm hoping that this will encourage students to come forward and seek that support. And then from that, we could then start to just gather more information about their lives, their challenges, what what they're you know, what where they need specific support over and of other students that are also disadvantaged. And we can use that as a platform from which to potentially go to government, um, go to you know, wider funders and say, look, this is something that there's a need across the sector here. This is the level of support financially and otherwise. Um, you know, maybe speak to other universities about that to try and ensure that this is like you say, isn't just the one-off, you know, scholarships over the next you know, three to five years, but it's something that we can you know use to kind of take the information, embed the learning, and then you know, look at how we can put together some kind of longer-term plan, not just for Manchester Met, who I'm sure will still hopefully be leading the way, but nationally as well. Um, so yeah, and and and I know there's already discussions about that taking place. So I think there is there is definitely um a plan that we will be looking at, try to embed this and look at how we can look at support nationally on a long-term basis.

Host 16:30

Great. Um, and actually, this is per a perfect transition into something else I wanted to ask, uh, which is how do you know maybe um how the university will monitor the longer-term impact or outcomes for the scholarship recipients and possibly also their communities?

SPEAKER_04 16:48

Yeah, definitely. I mean, the universities already have um systems in place to monitor all students that graduate, you know, they kind of um keep in touch with them around what their employment prospects are because you see a lot of stuff published about you know, so many students five years after the degree are in employment and arts. There's already those processes in place. So I imagine those would be utilised. But um, yeah, I I also envisage, and and again, when we were when we were talking about um that the specific mentoring role, some of the discussion was around the data gathering and the long-term monitoring. And and that would be through that student staying in contact with us and letting us know how they're doing. Um, and and there will be plans to kind of follow up with those students and see how they're doing, because obviously we want to ensure that this investment is for them something that they find really valuable and useful, and has hopefully allowed them to get to where they want to be after the degree. Um so, you know, we'd want them to stay in touch with us, hopefully they would, because they'd have that really solid relationship, and then yeah, there would be that follow-up um, you know, potentially for several years at least after the after the degree to see how they're doing, what impact it's had, and so on. Because, you know, for us to demonstrate that this is going to become embedded and we want to roll it out on a more wide-scale basis, we'll need that longer term data to show this is the difference it has made, this is the trajectory. So it's now put somebody on when they were on a different trajectory. Um, and you know, this is why we need to look at look at funding, um, funding more scholarships in this area. I mean, we know that lived experience, people with lived experience in the justice system often make for really, really powerful um case managers in the criminal justice system, in probation, youth justice, the third sector, and they have an ability to engage with people who are in the criminal justice system, um, labelled as offenders in a in a very effective way and a very powerful way. So this is something that has benefits beyond education and for the criminal justice system as well, um, if that's the field that people want to go into. Um obviously there'll be many other fields that people are interested in working in as well.

Host 19:00

Um, just out of cure like personal interest, do you think um, yeah, their ability, like they're they're um, as you said, are really become really effective case managers and can engage with these um offenders or other people involved in the system. Do you think that that would have something to do with empathy or a similar, a similar um, yeah, because they really can understand what um the person is going through?

SPEAKER_04 19:26

Potentially, yeah. I mean, I think, I mean, I started off as a probation officer. Um, and what what we would what you typically need is certain skills as a person, right? You need to show that you're not judgmental, that you can build a relationship with somebody that they're gonna trust you. So I think you don't need to have lived experience to do that. But I do think from speaking to young people and adults in the justice system, if they meet with somebody who's also got that shared experience, it just brings down those barriers a lot quicker. I think those connections can be formed a lot faster because they get it, they've seen it. There's not that mistrust of figures of authority in the same way, potentially of, you know, what background have you come from? You're just getting paid to do this job is something you would often hear as a first kind of, you know, why should I why should I trust you? Um, it removes some of that because, you know, they kind of know that this person has been there seen it, felt it, it lived those challenges, and that they get it in a way that, you know, me as a pharma probation officer could never understand. Um, so I think it it it probably just helps remove some of those barriers a little bit quicker and can make for quite powerful working relationships when it works really well.

Host 20:39

Yeah, I I can come, I completely imagine that. Um that makes yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Um I'm I yeah, I mean, just even thinking, I think that's applicable, of course, to other situations too, where it's just this this uh common interest or common background that really makes people more comfortable. Um so moving forward, what would success look like to you for either the program or individual scholars? How for yourself personally, how would you measure this?

SPEAKER_04 21:08

I mean, I'm a qualitative researcher, right? So I'm interested in people's stories. Um, I'm and I'm sure there'll be the data that shows, you know, what led to this employment and these outcomes and so on. I'm sure that will follow, and that maybe at an institutional level, that's what the institution are interested in. I strongly suspect Lady Adwina Grover is coming from a similar place to me, but I obviously can't speak for her. But it I want I want to hear about people's how getting the scholarship has made it much easier for them to do university, maybe remove some of those additional pressures of having to get extra work to support themselves financially. Maybe they've not had to do that to the same extent, and it's just given them the headspace to do the degree, thoroughly kind of enjoy that process of learning. Um, and then the difference it's made having the support, you know, so they felt comfortable in their own skin in an environment that may otherwise have felt alien to them. So I'd be interested in during the during the degree, how they found that, whether they've felt that their voice has felt valued, which hopefully it will do because we we are a university that that you know has a lot of students that come from disadvantaged backgrounds. So we have a lot of experience in this. And then in the longer term, you know, what difference has it made to their lives in terms of the direction that they would have gone in versus the direction that they're now able to go in through having this additional support. So hopefully you know it will mean that they're able to access jobs that previously they might not have been able to because of um barriers around needing a degree and then that's given them an opportunity to really kind of move forward in the direction that they wanted to on their assistance journey away from you know a life involved in the justice system.

Apply Anyway And Ask For Help

Host 22:56

Yeah, I I um yeah thank you so much. I think that definitely would be um a successful program. And I I'm the same I also I really feel like I can resonate more with data if I am doing things like interviews or qualitative research where you can really read about people's stories um which is something that I wanted to ask you in case you were more uh quantitative so it's really great that you um think the same way. The first scholars of the program will begin in September 2026 I believe. What are your hopes for them? And if you could speak to them actually right now, maybe they're listening, what would you want them to know?

SPEAKER_04 23:36

I would want them to apply. I really would I'd strongly encourage them to apply. If they're like thinking they're not sure they've got questions they're a little bit nervous then just get in touch with the university you know we'd be we're very approachable staff at you know in the unit if they were to speak to any of us have a cup of tea I've already done it with a couple of students that are interested um you know they've that that I already know through Manchester Youth Justice Service. And we've we've gone for a cup of tea we've had a tour of the student union you know I've just sat with them and said look look at the students around you they they look just like you they dress just like you do you feel comfortable and they're like yeah yeah I can see that I can feel that I can appreciate it because you could see there was a lot of nerves to actually seeing that change in them even before applying so I guess that would be one of the messages I'd want to put out there which is you know this isn't an alien environment even though it might feel like it and it's our job to make sure that you feel comfortable um and and and at home you know that you belong there um and and in terms of what I hope for the first the first student I just hope they have they just have a great journey on on through university I hope that they really enjoy learning that they can bring their own lived experience to the table if they want to but I don't want them to feel like they have to if they want to they're not don't want to tell anyone and just be a student and do their degree that is also a hundred percent cool as well but just have a great learning experience and and that it really does have a positive influence on their lives and remove some of those financial pressures that so many students face um during a degree that it just removes some of those from them.

Host 25:22

That's so nice. Yeah thank you thank you so much and one question because um I heard you mention that um that you were going to the Manchester Youth Justice Service beforehand were you a part of um the promotion or encouraging of the scholarship program in any way?

Targeted Support Without Forcing Disclosure

SPEAKER_04 25:38

No no we already have these connections with young people um because we have a pre-existing as a research centre we've worked with Manchester Youth Justice Service and Greater Manchester Youth Justice Services for about 10-15 years and we we quite frequently um have young people who've got lived experience of the system come in and speak to our students who are interested in doing degrees and we already support them with that. And often we have our students go out and do internships and do pieces of research in the in the justice, you know, in the youth justice system. So it's just through those pre-existing relationships but what we've been able to do now is say to you know young people who've maybe come through the justice system and are now looking to do a degree and move on with their lives we can now say to them oh there's a scholarship you know whereas previously it was just would you like to apply and we'll support you now we can say actually there's a scholarship that could help you financially and they're like oh wow that's amazing and you know as far as I'm aware I think Mammet is the only um university in the country that offers this to undergraduate students. So it's something that is very much um a unique offer and we can say that to them and then and and suddenly they're like oh I didn't realize that and you can see that they start really thinking about it because those barriers in their mind start to be removed which I think is really great.

Host 26:56

Certainly I think also it it has to do with the fact that it's targeted support. So it's for them and I think that's that's something that's really special to know that there's a scholarship for you and for um the things that you have endured in your life. That actually brings me to something I did want to ask do you think targeted support like this maybe is should be seen as completely necessary across vulnerable groups instead of maybe an optional measure that universities should take?

SPEAKER_04 27:27

I mean yeah I think all universities should offer targeted support I think because then you you you are potentially likely to have support workers that have got that specific knowledge and training in in a certain area and are aware of the additional challenges that somebody might face. In terms of whether students access that support I think it should be entirely down to them. But I would really want them to even if they didn't feel that they needed support make themselves known to the university make themselves known to that support that's available so that they can just check in every now and again and just say is everything okay? Yeah it's fine I'm okay because often I say to students a lot it's worth familiarising yourself with whatever support's available because although you think you're okay now you never know what's going to happen with life. Suddenly something can just come and throw you a curveball and knowing what help is out there and that you can just access it immediately is really really important and for the best will in the world none of us can ever plan for those curveballs and I suspect that if you come from a background maybe where you have justice experience or care experience and etc those curveballs may come a little bit more frequently because of the additional structural barriers that those students face. So I think that's why it is probably important to have that targeted support and for students I'd encourage them to make themselves known rather than say they have to because I think that's that's probably a little bit oppressive and but I think one of the great things about university is that element of choice and freedom that I think a lot of students experience for the first time in education that they don't really get really in in mainstream secondary education especially where it's very prescribed and so I think it would be important that we continue to underpin underpin those values.

Host 29:14

Completely completely thank you so much. Rachel do you have anything that you would like to add from any of the questions that I asked or just an idea that you want to build on no I thought that was I was honestly just I really enjoyed listening to that and perfect thank you so much. And uh Anne Marie do you have anything that you want to build on or add from any of the themes that we talked about or any questions from me?

SPEAKER_04 29:38

I think it was really nice to kind of speak about this this and and really kind of hopefully promote it to um you know young women that obviously the magaz magazine's targeted at young women who maybe are thinking of um of doing university because there may be some that don't live in Manchester that see the opportunity and want to apply for it and it might make them um you know nationally be interested as well in in in the opportunity which um would be would be would be great.

Parasto’s Story Begins In Kabul

Host 30:08

Certainly it's I think it's really it's really groundbreaking and actually when I even found out about the scholarship I was um pleasantly surprised because I had I hadn't seen anything like this um thus far. So it was and I just graduated from my undergraduate degree two years ago and so you know I'm also looking at my graduate uh program opportunities and looking at different support um so I think it's just it's very special it's very special and I'm really happy that um your university is making this uh progress.

Secret Schools And Online Classes

Skills Training To Become Breadwinners

SPEAKER_05 30:41

Great well thank you so much I think that's all the questions I have for now we kind of sped through them and I can't think of anything but if I have any questions for you um I will also follow up thank you that's the opportunity so my name is uh Parasto Hakim and um I I was um born and raised in Afghanistan and I lived in Kabul even uh before leaving Afghanistan so I studied in there and everything the life everything was there so and in 2023 that everything changes that and and I had to leave the country and I was working in education sector before as well but it didn't add up as much as I was involved after 2021. So what happened in 2021 was uh when they just came to the country they banned um education facilities and opportunities for the girls especially after the primary education so uh the universities were still running but the the jobs were still running but we all knew that what's gonna happen and how it's going to happen. So in September um I started to contact some of our teachers because those that was my targeted uh I can call them audience and uh colleagues after that because I knew they have connections uh they have experience in in education and I don't need to mentor them all I don't we don't need to train anyone to have to teach because they already had the experience and also for for me it was very easy to to to find um students because that's what we wanted to do. And I started um I I I looked for this teacher her name I would call her Mariam today she already had a school inside her house and she was teaching um her students that uh they were banned from school and uh she asked them to come and join her in in and at home so that she can help uh them to study. So I went the next day I went to her and I started talking with her and we had this um conversation and I just asked her like let's expand this school and uh I might be able to help you with with the materials or any type of like um anything that you you might need for the school let's expand. So she said okay and on that day we started surveying and we started asking new girls to come to our schools and uh house by house and that in those those we we we we went and we surveyed people and we saw how how people were thinking and everybody was very happy especially the mothers would look at their daughters who were banned from education and say that you know you were looking for school to open and now the school opportunity is here in our house and they are calling you to to join them. So please go on. And on in one day we we I think we collected more than 55 students and I didn't want it to be a big deal I wanted just to to as a young girl I just wanted to have a small part in what is what was going on to be any of uh assistance on on or or help. So then um um slow but slowly this is how we created a small place for girls to come and study there. But the second day or third day when I was going and teaching there we noticed that the mothers and the elder sisters or elder aunts or even the grandmothers of the uh girls were also joining the schools and uh they wanted to join um to to to study and uh it was not okay for us because we don't we wanted to our our audience was the girls and we wanted to help them because traumatized they were traumatized and psychologically they were not okay. So we had to make a place but we could not say no to these women as well because they came like from from this community. So we made so we individualized them and we took them to another um class and uh I spoke with them and one of the main things that they told us on those days I have I have repeatedly faced on this was when I asked them why they wanted to study and why they wanted to get educated, it was also bond with war. So um they were telling me that uh their husbands, their brothers, their male guardians at home um basically uh they were telling them and asking them that you should go somewhere so that you can be educated as much as if you are stuck in a war zone or an attack is happening or a war or anything is happening, you should be able to recognize the numbers and memorize our numbers and call as an emergency case or call the ambulance or if you are like stuck in an um an attack a bomb attack or anything you should be able to read the addresses to find us to to come so that we can help you because we don't want to lose you to war. So even they they the the motive of getting education was also bond with war that we wanted to somehow skip war that's why they had to come and study and we asked them we surveyed them on that day that what what subjects they wanted to focus on and they were main three subjects on how to read how to uh write and how to use telephones and basically it was English because most of them had their family members outside the country especially after what happened in 2021 everybody left the country so everybody had somebody outside the country so they wanted to know how to use WhatsApp how to use mobile and phones and basically in English as well so we were teaching them that we started so we we called the program uh second chance program because all of these women were those victims of the Taliban policies in 1996 so we couldn't say no to them because that's what we wanted to do and we expanded our team and we had uh four teachers and now we we had two different classes these girls that in the first chance and these girls in the second chance program women. So that's how we we um expanded everything and then in December next year of that in December 2022 they banned women from going to universities they banned them after one week um of banning them from going to universities they banned them from going to any type of offices or world places so what we did was when they banned university was on on that night we sat together with my team and we say at this point we had more than um five or six secret schools uh in Kabul and outside Kabul um which was like in some big areas and then uh we sat together with my team and we said we have to do something for that as well because everybody was asking us like my sister is banned from university can we do something so we created a WhatsApp group to collect students and then um we in one night like in in like in four hours we collected more than 700 boys and girls from across Afghanistan that they wanted to be included and we created a team uh different different types of teams and so we categorized them we could give them surveys what they wanted to study and what they wanted to learn. Basically we create we could not create an online university because it was not possible. But we spoke with many of the uh Kabul university teachers who were like protesting against the Taliban against the ban of education for girls uh in the universities and uh they all joined us and we made a program and curriculum and stuff and we were teaching the students and the girls different uh type of stuff that was possible online for example literature uh for example psychology psychology for example computer science um for example um um english language and english literature so it was it was one of the the the easiest things and at the end of the programs we were creating another program for them for like two or three months so that we can give them the knowledge on how they have to be able to adapt to the online system or online universities and stuff. So we teach them so many stuff we work with them uh every day on how to make uh their ESA's uh how to do their applications for online universities and for more than 39 girls we were able to uh secure uh scholarships in one of Indian uh universities and five of the girls from that group chat and uh that that online classes uh got internship in uh New York universities uh and most of them most of them that we helped they got scholarship with American University of Afghanistan so it was a program that's still going on and we give them the responsibility of moving forward and collecting more and more girls to them but my main focus was on the girls to to get them educated and also get them uh uh there's a sense of responsibility that their future belongs to them so they have to do something for themselves I didn't want to to fish for them I wanted basically I wanted to show them the skills on how to do it by themselves which they uh successfully more in most cases they did for themselves. After after everything was banned um we were setting every everybody we were like um we knew deep down when especially international communities uh journalists were coming to Afghanistan and they were speaking to us and most of them were telling us that maybe this time these people changed and uh it was very surprising for me coming as a as a as a girl in that community or that country that people outside the country while five years these people have been in the power and they did so many bad things that they should have not um the world still thinks that they might have changed and they were just terrorists you know they are not like normal people to come to power so um what we did was for me I was keep repeating this thing that they will do exactly the same things as they did in 1996. So I was born in 1997 and everything this I I know about them is from the stories of my mother from the um from the documentaries like um Kristina Manpur in 1997 or six she was in September she was in Afghanistan and she created a documentary about every aspect of life in Afghanistan after the during the Taliban and the Taliban so what we did was uh for me it was very shocking that uh these many stories and documentaries exist but people outside Afghanistan that's the things that they changed. So I was emphasizing that they will do exactly the same things as they did in 1996. It was also a wake-up call for me to do more because the girls inside those schools they are not they do not have the mentality of a of a victim they do not have the mentality of a person that they are unable and they have do not have any right to be in the community or be part of the community as people want them to be. So they wanted more every day we were going there. So what we did was we did a survey and for me the biggest part for the for my girls was this thing that one thing was to give them opportunities to learn but another thing was to keep them at home so that because mostly in those cases when the girls were not able to go to school, not able to go to university not able to work the family members because average family member in Afghanistan is seven people. So most of the people like for example I am a child and I'm I'm not able to go to university or school my mother was not was banned from going to a job and my father also do not have any job because he was working in the previous government and now they are being banned from being in the same position. So I was a burden on my family and they could not feed me because it's too many children and I was in an age like 13 years old, 14 years old automatically recognized to get married and that's why even if they don't force me emotionally I have this force and pressure on my head that I have to get married. So for me um I I could feel that pressure um and I wanted to give the girls um skills so that they can bring food into the table for their family members so that they can be of any assistance to their parents to not be to not be seen as a burden on the shoulder to just a bread eater, not breadwinner. So I wanted to make them as breadwinners as well as well as giving them the opportunity to grow and have access to education. So what we did was we um did a survey among um all the girls that we had in secret schools and we wanted to know what type of activities that they know already or they have a little bit knowledge or at least they have the interest. So we found um it was very surprising for us that most of the girls without any knowledge or without any trainings or without having any tuition or courses they were able to make um art uh like in a very very high manner and they were able to create art and they were already doing the painting there were so many girls that they were skating and they were doing uh clothes designing there were girls that they were able to do uh tailoring of course it's a very common thing uh there were so many girls especially in northern Afghanistan that they were able to wave carpets so with the help of their family members because this was something like a locally business that they were doing and there were so many um girls that they were writers They were writing and reading literature and books. So we used that and we created different types of courses for them. We hired teachers for them. And at this point, um, we had more than 11 secret schools in the country. So we provided them with some facilities like machineries and stuff from our friends. We collected money, and anybody who could give us like a pen or a notebook or a machine for tailoring or canvas for art projects, we were accepting it. So at this point, many people were coming and speaking with us. And also I was um in the media speaking about the initiatives that we were doing. So so many people were reaching out to help us with the small project that we created. So then now, like in 2023, I had to leave uh overnight in March 2023 because of the threats um were there. But um at that point, I saw that the girls were not only feeling the sense of responsibility for their future, but they also had the sense of responsibility for these girls that they do not have access to education. Because that's what I want to do with this um team that we created, the girls that they are graduating, we are giving them the sense of responsibility that they have to become teachers with us. Like we are not forcing them, but um, as you might know, the the documentations that we provide to them, they cannot use it inside the country because it's a secret school. So what they can do is to still pursue their education and be the breadwinner. We we hired them, we mentor them and we train them to be teachers, and then we hire them with us, we give them salary, and in the same time we give them knowledge on how to work on their skills, to bring money back to home or to school, and also to um on how to um be able to apply for like international universities to study online because they are at that point where they can buy themselves laptops or they know how to attend schools and online universities. So now what we were focusing on is um they were all teachers for themselves, and uh we had a group of 200 girls that they graduated last month, and all of them are right now in the training process to become teachers and go back to their communities, and the schools are built in a way to and the security measurement was one of the biggest points for us was just that the girls should not use the public transportation because uh anything can happen, like attacks can happen, or like they can be found or they can be followed by somebody and it might put the whole team in risk. So the schools are inside the communities where everybody knows that their daughters are coming to the secret school. So this way, if a threat is coming, the the community is standing against those people that they don't want the schools inside the community, and it happened so many times. And in these four years that we are working on secret schools in that country, none of our knock on the wood, none of our students, our teachers, our team members, our field workers, or our surveyors or our monitors have been detained, questioned, or followed by the Taliban yet. So um, because of the measurements and also the knowledge that we have got from our mothers or our team members, like especially the women in the secret chance program, they were telling us how to mentor everything and how to take the security measurements. So now the girls are in that phase where they know how to weave carpets, they know how to make clothes, they know how to sketch, they know how to paint, they know how to make jewelries, they know how to write a book, they know how to read a book, especially the big books like uh, I don't know, the Miserables from Victor Hogo is one of the one of the books that they have been working on for two weeks. So now what we are doing is our biggest focus is on this to give them the knowledge on how to use technology to create platforms for their businesses, uh, so that they can make the things that they are skilled in and uh take pictures and do marketing for that and sell it while they are at home. And their family members, for example, their brothers, their fathers are going to help them to deliver it. So this way the girls are businesswoman for themselves because I do not see them to sit at home to be depressed. I do not want them to sit at home and study online because I I believe um as as a social species, I think we belong to the community. And nobody from inside the country or outside the country, even high ranking or from that de facto authorities cannot tell us like otherwise, like please sit at home or study religious books and stuff. So because we don't. I don't want that. So this is how the whole thing came together. And I I think from September 2021, where I woke up one day and I was like, I want to do something, and I started that thing, to today, I don't understand how this happened. And then to be honest, I think it's all the um determination of the girls and the teachers. And right now we have more than 35 secret schools. Um, and we have um centers for skill building programs, especially the carpet weaving programs. We have more than 42 employees, uh teachers, we have more than six monitorers that they are monitoring the schools every day because we know that the girls are coming to school, but we have to make sure that the quality of education is good and they are getting educated because they will be attending um international universities, and we are helping them in the next phases with that too, and especially the skill building programs. And um the only person that was out is me because in 2022 I didn't really want it to be in the media or speak about it because it was not something that I should be proud of, because this was something that I felt responsible for to do. But when I faced the international journalist coming to Afghanistan telling me that uh they it it seems outside the country that the people of that country are especially women are okay with with what they are saying and we don't care. So speaking um with the media was a threat, but not speaking was a bigger threat because everybody thought that we are okay with the situation going on and the Taliban changed. So that's why I became the face and we were speaking, and uh the team is still in Afghanistan. We have five women working on everything, and I'm just here, I think, managing and uh doing the innovative work. Okay, and uh advocating right now. I'm in Paris. Okay, and how long have you been there again? So I came in 2023 in Afgrade.

Remote Management And Volunteer Funding

SPEAKER_02 51:27

So you're doing the managing, you're coordinating with um your partners back there. Yes, 2023 all online? Yes, everything online. Wow, that's super impressive. And you and I'm curious because you have explained how you've really just catered to your community. You've kind of shifted like these curriculums, these educational curriculums for what individuals want. Um, I find that really empowering. I think it's always really important to listen to the people you're working with, you know. So that's something that I really found interesting to hear more about. I'm also curious how how do these um online programs work with WhatsApp group chats, etc. You mentioned you also have um like online courses, right?

SPEAKER_05 52:13

Yes, the online courses, the management program programs or the uh strategizing and methodologies and um the announcements is happening in WhatsApp through WhatsApp and the uh schools and the classes are being held in teams, because in Teams, it's not like Zoom, we do not have the time or stuff, but in um through uh in Teams, we we we take the classes and it's the girls themselves that they graduated in 2023, and now they are they took over the programs and they are working on that um initiatives themselves because I don't want to show them to do something. I we trained them because they were the students and they graduated, and now they are voluntarily helping their other fellows to have the same position as they have.

SPEAKER_02 53:02

And I'm just curious, how do you receive most of your funding for this? Because are the teachers paid or is it mostly volunteer work or a mix?

SPEAKER_05 53:11

So um the schools are mainly in the field. Um, all of the schools are in the field, it's not online, and I don't want to imagine a day that we will have the schools online because it's not working. Um, the funding resources I cannot say, but we only have one source, but it was not from the beginning of the work. And we I have to mention that we started this work all of us volunteerly, and we were just working voluntarily. And uh for one year we were able to secure fundings to buy the machineries and the document the things that we were we needed for skill building programs, which has finished. But um, even if we do not have any fundings and we do not have any materials, and when we speak with the teachers to tell them that we do not have any resources to give them the and if they want to take a break until we are able to provide something for them, like financially, they tell us that they did not start it the work with money and they will not stop it with without money. So it's mostly volunteerly, and it's it's something like a social work that started inside the community because their own daughters are also going to be beneficial from it.

SPEAKER_02 54:22

It sounds it's really interesting to hear more about how it's so community-led. Everybody works together to help one another. Um, I find that very empowering um and impressive, honestly.

SPEAKER_05 54:32

And how old are you now? Just curious. Uh well, I was 24 when I started everything, but now I'm 28.

SPEAKER_02 54:41

And I'm also curious um about the name of the organization.

SPEAKER_05 54:46

It is Srak if altogether.

SPEAKER_02 54:49

Okay, and why did you choose that name?

SPEAKER_05 54:51

Um, one of our colleagues actually, she mentioned it. Um Srak is actually a Pastor word, and it's uh it indicates the uh first light in the morning even before the sunrise.

SPEAKER_03 55:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 55:05

So it's like kind of like education for us is like that.

SPEAKER_02 55:09

Okay, that's beautiful. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I was curious to hear more about it. Okay, and then I'm wondering also, um, when you receive new students, and I know you've explained to you conduct surveys to see what exactly they'd they'd like to get out of the programs and the education, but I'm curious, what is the first thing the girls usually say when they join the programs?

SPEAKER_05 55:32

I think in 2021, when we started the school, we give them curriculums and we give them the books and we started classes. They were very keen and they were they were standing in front of us and they were like, give us more. We want more, we we want computers, we want to study how to make softwares and applications, we want to know how to use laptops or computers or phones. Uh I think the idea comes from the within the girls themselves, like the initiatives. And it's it's something that we think about beyond what's what we are doing. Like, for example, we know that the curriculum might change in that country and they were going to make it according to their extremist ideologies. But what we did was like we already bought books from the previous uh education system, and we stored it because we know that it will be very difficult in a few months or years to buy them or find them because when they make new books, they will they will take the other books out of the market so that they cannot be reachable for anyone. So these are the things that we think about from the management perspective. But most of the stuff that we are teaching them, for example, the book sessions that we have on Fridays, like if the girls like in Afghanistan, Friday is off day, like we have Saturday and Sunday here. But the girls uh even come to the school on Friday, but we could not say to them that no, you cannot come. So what we did was on Friday, for example, they want to study different books from their curriculum because they want to know more stories, they want to know biographies. So we uh created a program for them that every Friday the girls will come to the school, and for one Howard, we will give them biographical books, for example, from Nelson Mandela, uh, for example, from Malala Yousufsay, for example, from uh for example, Michelle Obama, the the book Becoming, for example, I don't know, uh Nirendra Moody or the family. Um, so we give them these books so that they can read it with themselves during the week, and then on Friday they come and gather together and they speak. They and they say the overview, what they think about the books. And so this is how everything has been created. One of us, the the um power of the girls on their parents inside the community that is keeping them safe inside the schools, the happiness that they receive from being in the community in the schools within each other to to learn from each other, and the initiatives, the new initiatives from being together in that community that they want to learn more and they are giving us the initiatives that what do you want? Do you want something like that? They're like, yes, and or or no, we want something like that. This is what we mostly got our power of doing more, because if they didn't have the determination, we might not be able to have as much effect as we have right now. So I think everything starts from them and their curiosity, and we do not shut down their desires for education, any type of desires that they have for education or getting educated, whatever they want. We make a way to give it to them because they deserve it.

Trauma Care Through Diaries And Therapy

SPEAKER_02 58:44

Yeah, that's nicely said. Okay. And I'm curious then, um, because you mentioned their determination. I'm curious, have you have you noticed how this education has changed the way they perceive themselves and their future? I feel like it would bring a lot of hope to them. Of course.

SPEAKER_05 59:03

Um for many of them, for example, when when the schools were banned in 2021, then the de facto authorities said like they will open the school next year, which is March 21st or 22nd in our calendar, in this calendar here outside the country. So they opened the schools for one hour and then they shut it down again. Like after one hour, it was shut down and everybody was shocked, and the girls were crying, and they came back to school. And on that day, I had to go to each one of the schools that we had inside uh Kabul because we we have the coverage of the schools, not only in Kabul, we have it in the whole the country right now. So, but most of them I spoke online by myself because I had to, I felt the need to speak with them. And they I went personally to all the schools and I saw the girls crying. So I was just standing there and I was like, finish uh your crying and your tears. Um, I'll be here, I have time, and then we will speak. And then one thing that I told them was like, you should be happy to not attend schools under these people because they're extremists and they think that we do not deserve life, and we do not deserve to be in the community, and we have to be, we have to live like slaves. So what they're going to teach you now is like maybe this this method, this uh curriculum, but they will change it and uh without you noticing, you will feel unworthy, and that's how they want us to feel. Do you want to go to those schools? And now, if you ask the girls, like one of the international communities, um journalists went to Afghanistan in 2023, and they asked the girls, like, do you want to, if the Taliban opened the schools, would you go? And they say, like, no, I would rather be in the school than go to schools under them. That and that made me so much proud that they they not only listen, but they feel and they understand, they try to take the responsibility for how their future, how they want to shape their future. And I wanted to tell them that how their mothers are illiterate, that's why they became the Taliban. So this is how they perceive everything and they understand the situation. And one of the biggest things, one of the biggest challenges and struggles that we were facing on those days was um uh the fact that um they were so much traumatized, especially after 2022, the schools were banned again, that we had we had no ways to to cure them. And I was really, I couldn't even sleep or um, I couldn't really normally function because of it was very, very difficult for us. So one of our my my friends, my best friends, and one of my colleagues, she was uh graduated from master's degree of uh therapy and psychology from psychology from Kabul University, and she told me, so I was speaking with her about the girls that I was so afraid that the girls do not commit suicide because it was a very, very disappointing um environment for them. So what we came up with, I asked her if it's okay to start a collective mission so that everybody can take the trauma out of themselves. For example, I I suggested if we can give them diaries and ask them to write their stories, how they feel and everything, would it help them to take them out? And then we read the diaries and we categorize who needs the most help. Then we will find a way to give them assistance of psychology or psychotherapy if they need. This was a very good move, I think. And we give them diaries and then they wrote everything, and it was very sad that in most cases we could not even read the stories that they wrote. It was very, very sad. So but the good thing was they were functioning differently when they were saying that every time I was going to the school or I was speaking with them online from across the country, like from the other cities, they were asking me, did I read their stories? And uh, I had to read a little bit pages of like the schools that I was attending, so that I can tell them that yes, I mean you mentioned this, something like that, you mentioned something like that. And for most of the girls, we became as as as family members that we were mentioned in their notebooks every day, every every time. So I felt this sense that they look at us very highly. So I have to read their stories to give them this sense of that I see you, I understand you, and I am here to help. So that's why how I and I also had to give them this motive that well, I might not be here all the time. So I had to give them the sense that I will not be here all the time, and you have to help yourself, and I'm here to help you to find that thing so that you can help yourself. So this is what we were able to do. And these notebooks I still have, and I translated them into English, and I want to one day if I can find a good place, I want to publish it as a book to have their stories.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:09

Wow, that is that would be an amazing book. I would love to read that one day if it ever is published. I'm sure it will be seeing your past um accomplishments. Wow. Um, that's so interesting though to hear. And you have like do you have like psychologists, other psychologists that are helping you navigate?

SPEAKER_05 1:04:28

We have two psychologists, and they have been very successful in their job that they do. So far, we have helped four people uh from our schools or students that they had severe um thoughts of uh suicides. We took them out of that thought, and now they're back to life, and uh we help them, but it's not enough, you know. It's like there are so many secret schools in Afghanistan right now, and everybody needs help. And of course, with the little help that we have, especially women, psychopsychiatrists and therapists, we are not able to help everyone, and it's very difficult because many of them are unable to reach to these channels and they unfortunately kill themselves. I think I just have like five more minutes because I think they have to close.

A Message To The World

SPEAKER_02 1:05:15

Then if you just have five more minutes, is there anything that you would like to share that you feel like you've missed? I just want you to take the message of us.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:25

Um, if I may represent a tour of the girls in secret schools in Afghanistan, is that nobody in that school or in those communities, women, men, or girls or children want empathy. They do not want the world to look at them as victims. We are not victims. If we were victims, we would be just sitting at home and dying and waiting for our turn to get married and die under the giving birth process. But if we are standing on the ground, especially on the streets of Afghanistan, especially. On the street of Kabul, uh demanding our rights by protesting on those streets that the international community left. And we have seen everything. Women who were protesting, they have been to jail, but they stole in front of the guns and they fearlessly asked for their demands. So this is not the faces and the stories or the destination of um victims. We you can only call them resilient, and uh you can call them resilient people. So what we want is for everybody, if they cannot do anything very big to change bring some changes in the policies that does not even exist about Afghanistan right now. And any country at least speak about us, because Afghanistan's situation is not only women and girls going to school. Um, more than 50% of people in that country does not know where their next meal is coming from, according to the World Food Programme. According to UNITCR, like more than 40% of people even left the country or even try to leave that country, and everything is worse. And uh no matter how many policies they are going to make, that's that catastrophe is going to come to Europe. It's going to come to any other countries. So instead of running from that problem, it's best that they sit, make policies, and sit with the people who have plans and find a way out of that situation. And by by saying find a way, I'm not begging for freedom. I'm trying to tell them that they have to know their responsibility towards Afghanistan and at least do that. For example, if I may, the world has created International Human Rights Declaration, which has 13 articles, and all these 30 articles have been have been not followed in Afghanistan. They have all been like they have done everything against that declaration. At least the world has stand for that, because these are the words that we are telling our girls inside the secret schools. So girls are looking at them, how they act for that, right? And do they stand for that declaration? So at least stand for your own words and declarations that you create, and we see you and we see everything that you do. It's not enough, unfortunately. So yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:23

Okay, well, I will make sure to take that into account. Thank you so much for sending me your time. Of course. And I can tell you that my main goal is to make sure you girls are not depicted as victims and are depicted as fighters because that's truly what you are. And um impressed with all of the work that everyone has put into this whole community. Thank you, yourself included, of course. But really, really empowering to hear about it. So yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:59

Just one other thing that that just one other thing that I might say is there is one um there is one um website of us, uh it's called Snap, and they have written some stuff. And I I wrote it in our website as well. You might have seen that that it has been compromised, and we do not have access to that. And I don't know who did that, and um we have the doubts on who did that, but uh I don't have the time to do anything about it. So if you are going to reference our work, uh it's best that you can give the website um link into the article. It would be very helpful for us because so many people come to me and ask these questions, which I have no answer to. Yes, thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:42

Yeah, of course. Thank you so much for talking to me. And if you have any other thoughts or questions, please feel free to reach out.