From Singapore To The Asian Tour. In Conversation with James Leow

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Setup

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Hello and welcome once again to another edition of the Flag Hunters Golf Podcast. My name is Jesse Perryman, and I uh proudly bring this episode along with my co-host and commiserator and friend and uh fantastic instructor in Singapore at the Hidden Castle Golf Club. His name is Justin Tang. Uh, for longtime listeners, you're very familiar with Justin, and we have a fellow, or Justin, a fellow uh Singaporean. His name is James Liao on the pod this week. So James is an Arizona State graduate. He played with David Pooch, and he is a fully exempt tour player on the Asian tour. So we get into what his processes are, his preparation, things that he's working on, thoughts that he has, how to keep himself sharp, how to keep himself mentally sharp, uh, to go out there and compete. And, you know, for those of us who who play the game pretty well, uh, we can really get a lot of tidbits from from these world-class players. Uh, they they do give us some low-hanging fruit that we can think about and capitalize on, and James certainly does that. But I'm gonna leave it up to you, the listener, to decide which fruit that you want to pick from James's uh wisdom tree and and enjoy this young man. He's uh fantastic, he's got a bright future ahead of him, and and I hope to see him out uh in one of the major tours so that we know his name. And uh want to give a shout out to Mizuno Golf, Jumbo Max Golf, and thank you guys for your stupendous products. Uh, they are definitely supporters of the show, and we thank them for it. And I'll make sure to put all of James' info uh so that you can follow him on social media and other platforms as well. Cheers, everyone, have a great week. Hello, this is Jesse Perriman from the Flag Hunters Golf podcast, along with my co-host and friend, Justin Tang from the Hidden Castle Golf Club in Singapore, where it is always summer. Right, Justin?

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Okay, I think it's this world interview on this uh podcast.

Earning An Asian Tour Card

SPEAKER_02 2:42

That's that's right. We've got a born and bred uh professional golfer as our host, James Liao from Singapore, matriculated at the Arizona State University, played two years there, got cut off uh because of COVID, unfortunately. But uh happy new year boys, and and thanks for coming on, James. Justin, always a pleasure, my friend. Thank you, guys.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

So, James, you're the fifth Singaporean to earn an Asian tour card after Madden, Mahmoud, Lam Chi Bing, Chu Zhuang, and Quincy Queen how does that feel?

SPEAKER_00 3:19

I mean, I mean, to join that list uh of really good elite players on Singapore and part of Singapore golf history, you know, I think it means a lot to me. It's just like it's part of my goal and my dream to play on the professional tour and to live the dream. But you know, being able to say I was one of the uh, you know, the past five or six guys who make it to Asian tour, I think it could just, I mean, basically you can almost kind of one hand that that's a number of guys that make made it through to the Asian tour. So I think it says a lot about how tough it is out here on Asian Tour. Uh so many international players getting on there now, too, and uh it's such a strong feel uh filtering into the lift golf stuff too. So yeah, you know, it says a lot about the track I am on, and I'm excited for the journey here.

Winning Mindset At Aramco

SPEAKER_01 4:11

So take us back to the final moments of the uh Aramko invitation. What was the internal dialogue like when you realized that you were close to a win and securing a tour card?

SPEAKER_00 4:23

You know what's funny? I didn't know where I was on the leaderboard at all the whole day. Um it's actually something I was uh I've been working on with uh my coach, Jonathan Wallett. Um felt like I was putting too much pressure and giving myself too much nerves, just knowing where I'm at or trying to find out what's happening. Um so we try to cut off the external distractions that's happening around me and try to focus more on internal stuff where what whatever I could control, I control it and then just execute it. So, you know, I was saying this funny to everyone. Like, it's funny how everyone can drink till they black out, but then I go off till I black out that day. Like I literally had like just kept going, kept going. You know, I made two mistakes, two bogeys, but it's like a flick of a finger and then I'm back into the next shot trying to focus on the next hole. What's coming up next? What shot do I need to eat? What distance do I need to do? And yeah, managed to birdie the last three holes. So it was really like, yeah, I didn't know where I was. I just knew like I just wanted to post a number. I knew 900 was up there because a couple guys, I think two or three guys shot 900 that week. So, you know, doing the final rounds, yeah. I mean, damn, I mean, it was a hell of a round, and yeah, you know, can't stop thinking about it till now. I think it's still soaking in. Um, but yeah, it's definitely an achievement in my books and excited to have dark and get done and breakthrough for the first time in uh three years.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Yeah. So what was the very first thought that hit you when the cameras started coming into your face?

SPEAKER_00 6:13

There wasn't there wasn't really much cameras coming to my face, but just that the last five polls, obviously there's a lot more uh you know, camera actions, photo shoots, and live shooting and stuff because I think the last I was part of the last three groups or four groups coming in, and I think it it seems like everyone's probably gonna be close then, I guess. Um, but um I think I was in the same position last year, uh the year before in 2024. I was holding the lead going to the after the third round, played solid solid, I was like tight second, and then into the last round, obviously there was more cameras on me, and I blew the last round. So I think I kind of reflected hard on that 2024 Ramco event on what I needed to work on or what I needed to get out of my system. So I think in a way it was good for me because I adapted to the experience and learned from it and knew how to handle it going to that situation again uh last year.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

So when did you start working with the coach wallet and what were some of the things that you guys worked on? Obviously, technique being one of them.

Coaching With Jonathan Wallett

SPEAKER_00 7:25

Yeah, I think it's been about a year and a half. Um obviously, I think we were trying to really tidy up a lot of stuff, I think, from putting to short game to long game. I think especially the long game, because I felt like I wasn't getting enough consistency with my striking. So um, you know, we worked a lot of footwork trying to get efficiency out of uh movement patterns and stuff. So we did some force plates, had some analysis from there, and we figured we won, I wasn't getting enough to my left side. Um so just putting more foot, you know, ground force reaction on my left foot picked up some speed and got me striking the ball more solid than ever. And funny enough, if I started hitting my natural stop shot, which was a draw. I've always hated fate for the for I don't know how long, but then it's like it just naturally comes out as a draw. And then once I was a junior golfer and amateur golfer, I've always mostly hit the draw uh before I got my injury, uh, which I think will probably go into that later because it hasn't happened during college. Um but yeah, it's nice to have the stop-shot draw coming back in and learning to play with it. And obviously, I'm not the longest of hitter on the course or out there in tournament and poor. Uh yeah, so it's nice to get the draw, you know, big bomb draw as we always call it. Gotta love it. And from there, I think we move on to the short game side. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

What kind of ball speed are we talking about these days, cruising?

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Uh uh for me, I've been hitting between 165 to 173, thereabout. So when I step on it, it's definitely in the high 60s to low 70s. Um uh, but I think nowadays a lot of the younger guys that turn pro and everything out there, I think they've been getting almost 175 to 180. And I think that's a very norm right now. Um but I think at the end of the day, John and I were talking about it. Sometimes it's not about just hitting it long. Um it's a lot of wanting it. Yeah, uh, I think John and I were talking about sometimes it's not really about hitting it long, uh, and just being knowing your strengths and being precise with you know your wedges and your irons and learning to score. So cost strategy and understanding how to score is key. Um, I think it's really big out there on the tour because I think I believe Scotty Shaffler has talked about this a lot about him hitting it so good, you see his approach, uh always being there, knowing the proximity and where to miss. And then that's where the short game and the putting comes in. So the week that he has his putting in, it's he's going to light out golf. And the week the media putting is so slow, he's still always up there in the top 10.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

How much did the statistical work uh play into your your improvement?

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Yeah, um, you know, I think it's quite a big what do I say? You know, there's good and bad. I think there's always people that can overanalyze the stats and get to kind of dwell or you know, stuck on it. Uh, but for me, I think John has simplified some kind of steps for us that we work with under him. Uh, you know, it's green syndrome, inside five meters. Uh obviously, we got different distances from 50 to 100, 100 to 150, and 150 to 200. And they're all in the different uh proximity ranges. And then from there, you kind of pace off and you give yourself a score based off that. Then you do that for every round. Uh short game as well, if you're tripping inside six feet, because I think inside six feet, it's like uh the scoring area where you can save parts and make birdies and stuff when you're not on the green. And uh putting-wise, it's more like the total number of parts. So we've kind of like simplified the game in such that work with what you have and it's more on the surface. You don't really have to go so deep in sometimes. Uh, obviously, I have upgame as well, so I do both. Um, up game with the national team. So sometimes we break it down and get the proximity from fairways, rough, and all that. So I think it's good to have both sides sometimes, but for me, I think I always like to think golf as a game of simplicity. I think the simpler you make it, you just go out there and do what you need to, prep well, and score in the areas you need you can and your strength. It's pretty much, I think, you go out there and have fun. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

Yeah, indeed. With stats, it's so easy to go down the rampant hole, right? Yeah, that's it. There you go.

Overthinking Tee Shots And Fixes

SPEAKER_00 12:30

Yeah, I mean, I thought about maybe let's take a fumble stuff. Yeah. Let me go. Okay, yeah. So I think the the years a two years stretch, uh, year and a half of stretch I was struggling with pro golf, and I think um I was thinking too much about t-shots, just uh driver t-shots, and I wasn't finding as much fairways and stuff. So I think I started go dwell dwelling too much over like oh the short shape, whether drivers working well and stuff, instead of just doing it with the short shape and playing it uh out there. And um turned out, you know, actually the numbers have been great. I just needed to work on some other areas and stuff.

Growing Up Golf In Singapore

SPEAKER_01 13:16

So it's basically understanding true cause and effect and not get carried away or be misled by spurious correlations. Yeah, yeah. So let's take a couple steps back. Growing up in a the concrete jungle that is Singapore, how did you get introduced to the game of golf and for and even with the lack of uh infrastructure and access, you still reached the pinnacle of the game in Singapore?

SPEAKER_00 13:51

Yeah, um, you know, I started out at Mandai. I think that's where most Singaporeans started out golfing at Mandai, which was where all the beginners and uh low um high handicappers started off. And I think I really had to think the first coach I got that uh really helped develop my fundamentals in terms of grips, yeah, alignment, posture, and stuff. So I think it stuck on to me for so many years, even till today. And even when I moved on to my next coach, which was Brian Galvin from Australia, uh he's moved back now to Adelaide. And uh when he was here, I think a lot of focus is on efficiency, smooth, and fundamentals. So I've worked through from Mandai to Solita Air Base to Solita Country Club, and then kind of like practice to today's golf course and conditions and facilities. Uh but it's very different. I think Justin will understand that I think most Singaporeans grew up playing on cow grass because they are the most efficient grass to stay alive and uh keep this handle well easier enough. Yeah, keep the conditions alive uh in the hot, humid weather and hate and really heavy rainfalls because we can get a lot of uh uh rain out here. So most other wouldn't be in great shape. So learning to chip in cowgrass was definitely something different than the conditions in the US, Australia, and uh had to obviously learn to readapt as time went on. So uh I think it's taught me different stuff. Um obviously growing up, I think it's a lot about resilience and dealing with what you have and and what you can. Um so yeah, it's what brought me up to today and the same mindset, same method of uh toughness and resilience and and definitely patience.

unknown 15:50

Yeah.

Early Wins And Big Dreams

SPEAKER_01 15:51

So when was it apparent to you that you were good at this game of hitting a rubber ball with a metal club? Wow. Uh when did you start believing hey, there's something I mean I you know what's funny?

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Because when I was 12, I played my first international junior event, and then I won my first ever junior international event. Obviously, I was like in the D division, I don't know if it exists anymore, but uh yeah, as a junior, just playing golf for the first time, and you don't know what you're expecting to get into, and then winning it, and then following my dad, just constantly going to range practice and playing on the course. I think it kind of led to that moment and I was 14 and 15 where I was playing a lot of different sports, and my dad was like, hey, um I feel like you know, we're both we're doing a lot for golf, and I'm he's putting a lot of effort and time into it too, and I'm putting a lot of that too into practice and playing, seeing coach. And I think the results have been progressing really well. And it's also like at the moment where the Singapore education system as well, we take up a lot of time from our schedule. So obviously, if you want to multi-plus different sports, it's going to be really difficult. Um, and that's when I knew, like, you know, let's give this a go because I've been playing decent, I've been playing Swallow, I won a few junior events. I want to try this seriously and be competitive. And I think ever since then, uh I've also watched, you know, like the Masters and stuff on and off. I'm not a surprisingly, I'm not a big time golf watcher, but I do watch the majors for some reason. And I think ever since I was 15, I've had the dream that imagine myself walking down the last hole, holding the one shot D down the whole gallery walk on the last hole and fairway, just strolling down that and just taking it all in. So that'll be that was quite a cool dream. And yeah, like something I really want to achieve, and uh hopefully can do it.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

Well, two Singaporeans have played the British Open before you. You could be the second Singaporean to play the Augusta Masters after Hiroshi time. Hey, hey boys, maybe you'll be the first one to play all four majors. That's right. Your own Grand Slam.

Scale Of Singapore Golf

SPEAKER_02 18:25

The James Slam. So, hey boys, um, you know, us in the US, we have no idea how many people are in Singapore. So give us an idea of how many people in Singapore. In the US, I mean, it's you know, our our pool for world-class players is a lot bigger. So, how many people are in Singapore?

SPEAKER_01 18:52

Live in Singapore. Uh six million uh people.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

I mean, that's that's between 5.8 to 6.4 million people. It's like in that range right now. But the number of golfers that uh playing professionals at the moment is probably around between, including ladies, probably be like 15 or 16, thereabout. That's amazing, or maybe less. Yeah. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 19:21

What an accomplishment, James.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

Yeah, and we've only done like 12 golf courses, right? So access is a problem and it's expensive. We are a concrete jungle. We're better known for real estate, oil and gas, and uh financial services rather than exporting great sportsmen. That's what makes James' accomplishment so much more incredible. Yeah, very special.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

So uh now give us give us an idea of what your first year is on the on the Asian tour, fully exempt, right? Fully exempt on the Asian tour. What what what's that gonna look like? What is uh put that in context for us uh week by week, how many weeks, uh, how many tournaments do you plan on playing in? Uh do you have a rest schedule in between? Just give us an idea of the admin of that.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Well, uh, I think the schedule is not out yet, but the first two event is. Uh my category, I'll probably get to play pretty much every event except uh co-section. I think the co-sections are the ones that's harder to get into like the Korean ones, because um I think 60 60 guys get from Korean tour and 60 guys on the Asian tour get to go in and play. And uh most of the time it's the guys that the top 65 from last year's category that gets to uh from last year's top 65 of the merit gets to go in. So I'm just outside that top 65 category. Uh we'll see. I'm higher up on that um two school guys and ADT ranking guys, uh, ranking out there. So we'll see if we'll I'll be able to get in. But at the moment, um that's just Philippines uh President Master Trophy or something like that in the first week of February, and then I think the final week of February to the first week of March is the New Zealand Open. So that's the current two first two events. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

That's pretty dang cool. So you know it it takes a it takes a village to make a professional golfer, right? Like talk a little bit about your your equipment, your sponsors, like you know who who really believed in you before there was any any obvious reason to uh you know what?

SPEAKER_00 21:49

I think uh Sports Singapore SGA has always and uh party, sorry, don't get me wrong, uh SGA and Sport Singapore has helped me a ton. You know, the Southeast Asia Gold Medal, individual goal in 2019 really helped me out a lot too to get um, we call this thing called the Spec Scholarship. Um, so most athletes in Singapore of different sports who have medal uh got gotten gold medal or competed on the Asia or level, they have the potential to medal in Asian games, Olympics and stuff, have gotten this scholarship as well. So that scholarship for the past few years has allowed me to travel and uh spend on trainings and whatsoever that I need on like golfing accessories, speed, like trainer and stuff. So it's got most of that covered, or in fact, actually everything of that covered that really took a lot of burden off the top of my head. And um support since I was an amateur golfman and a national team uh supporting me in the transition and stuff. And now that I'm in the pro, I have the radar tires support. So when I have any training camps that I go to in Australia, I have the budget to claim of that. And I have to thank Party Golf, which is my main sponsor at the moment. Uh they've been really supportive for me and everything since my first year of ProGolf. Uh, you know, access to indoor simulator to practice when I need to with trackman and um workshop with uh professional guys working on it, so any clubs, grips, and whatsoever that I need to uh has been big time. Awesome. What's in your bang? Yeah, so at the moment it's just that um I'm a free agent right now, I'm not with any brands. Uh, but um I've used uh pink before. So when I won the around goal, it was with the pink clubs, but then I have a spider potter.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Well, I'm pretty sure after your win, after your your new found status equipment manufacturers will be knocking on your door.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

I honestly wish it was the case, but uh I think it's a little bit different with the Asian tour. Um we'll see where it gets. I really have no idea where um it will be, but um definitely, you know, I've been reached out by the titles. Um they've always been the big supporter in uh Southeast Asia Golf. So, but then at the same time, I have to think about the transition time for clubs because the technology and all are different too. So um I need some time to I can't just hop over as and when I want to. I need it to perform in the course exactly how uh it's it is, and um, so I'm slowly trying it out first before deciding deciding.

What Took Longest To Mature

SPEAKER_01 24:53

Yeah, yeah, it's a good idea. Let's let's talk about the long route to success. What parts of your game took the longest to to mature and why?

Chipping: Tropics Versus Desert

SPEAKER_00 25:13

I want to say the biggest part of my game that probably took a long time to mature was probably like short game and a little bit of the mental. I think mental part has been a bit up and down. Um I think in college it's like I felt like I could perform in high pressure moments and nervous moments. But as soon as I transit into pro golf for the first two years, I think it's tough when you don't perform well in most events that you expect to, or when you practice really hard and things just don't quite go your way, and doubts start creeping in. That's when I think the loss of confidence just kept building up, and then it eventually led to a bit of a doubt in some parts of the game, like um tipping, especially. So I think I think people call it yips, but I don't think I have it. It's just that uh I think under really high pressure, certain certain kinds of chips can get me uh a little fuzzy, feeling a little fuzzy. Uh, but I think that's where you really don't want those tough chips, you know. That's when cost strategy and cosplay comes in. But at the same time, golf is not perfect, I understand. So um we gotta make do with what we have, and I think I've grown a little bit in that mental space, learning to really accept and surrender myself into that moment and just execute basically myself what I need to and what I see, rather than thinking about the end results or what could happen and uh try to fight the feeling I have feeling and stuff like that. Yeah, so I feel like mentor was the biggest part. And then I think short game was the biggest growth in college because I think the tipping style I had in Singapore before in Southeast Asia Golf was you were trying to hit a steep cut in the cowgrass. Uh I think Jesse probably doesn't understand cowgrass, but uh that's what we had to do. We had to go steep in open face and really chop it down, uh just to pop the ball out. So definitely wasn't going to be doing that in any firm conditions in the US or Australia. And had to learn adapt with techniques, setups, club face, hands. And um, I think that's really matured by learning with from my teammates as well, um, who are world-ranked top 10 amateurs like Kevin Yu, uh David Coop, and stuff like that. So, I mean, really just helped my game overall to just develop that feel of how I need to hit certain shots, certain chips. And yeah, just really felt like those two spots have really matured the most the past few years.

SPEAKER_02 28:05

James, give us the cliff notes between what it's like to uh to hit steep cuts out of the pretty bad rough in Singapore versus, you know, especially coming to Tempe. I mean, that's like you might as well be on a different planet, you know, going from from tropical golf to desert golf. Um, and what would be the differences in the chipping technique? Give us the cliff notes of that.

Advice For Aspiring Juniors

SPEAKER_00 28:35

So I think in cow grass, you really want to get your weight maybe like 60% left, and so 60 30 and 6 60 40, and then really open the face up a lot more than your hand and your hands forward. And you really want to get it more outside in and drive the hand ahead of the club and just hold it through with a lot of speed on the biggest swing. And then um compared to Tempi, where you have really tight lie, really nice grass, and you're trying to clip it. Sometimes it's about not too much shuffling, a bit more hands releasing through, uh playing like draw spins and fade cut spins and stuff like that. Uh flighting the shots. And in cow grass and the rough, you don't have that option. Most of the time it's uh pop runner, we call it. So you see, open, pop, let it high, let it run, or really open face and try to slide it and hold the face through with the hands forward, just trying to have the ball land soft in that way. And that's mostly the two shots um that you can really play with and squawk with in Southeast Asia, especially on tall grass courses. And I think just going to Tampe is just like, you know, you get the shot. Oh, now you got the low spinner, high spinner, flighted tacker that releases a touch. You got the extreme high flopper that slices and spins left to right. You got the draw spin to roll out and stuff. So I think it's more like imagination work called. Yep. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

Well, cool. Thanks for that. So James, yeah. That will want to emulate you. Any words of advice or encouragement to them?

Guidance For Golf Parents

SPEAKER_00 30:49

You know, I think really two things. I think that's what that I kind of held on to. I think the first one was use your time wisely. I think it's so underrated growing up that you know, when you're so carefree and you're free to do what you want, and you have academics on top of it. You really need to use your time wisely. Um, plan out your schedule. And practice quality, you know, have quality practice basically is what I mean. Um really make use of the time you have efficiently and learn this play out there. Sometimes it's play, sometimes practice, breaking down your practice schedule. Uh, rather than blindly just going, okay, it's time for practice, we're just going hit ball, chip, butt. Okay, next day in the morning, maybe it's just go out there and play 18 hole, normal scoring. Um, and then I think it's just so deep when you say use your time wisely, right? If you were to talk to a coach and any one of the elite players, I think they would really break it down and say, when you're playing 18 holes four days in a row, they're doing tournament scoring one week, and then the other week, it could be if you're not hitting it inside a certain range, I'm dropping it off the green to do short game up and downs. Uh, and do like a scoring format on 18 holes. Um, and if I'm inside that range, I'm gonna putt and see if I can make buddies. So, really, I think the key was use your time wisely. That's the first one. And then the second one is uh, I think it's three things that I learned from uh Sound Double Golf. It's uh humble, hungry, and happy. It's three H. It's uh Sound double golf way for life. And uh being humble is like, you know, I think when you do win one event, keep your head down and keep going. I think obviously you can celebrate, but just understand that you know there's so much more ahead of you. You gotta keep working hard and keep at it and keep getting better. And then the next one is uh being hungry. Um I think sometimes uh you wanna be not, you know, don't let things get ahead of you. And just understand that there's so much more that you're playing for in yourself sometimes. And the last one would probably be happy. I think through it all, it's always a journey of up and down. Um learn to enjoy the journey and the process, take it all in and uh go with the flow.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

Yeah. And what would your your advice be to parents of stellar junior golfers?

SPEAKER_00 33:48

To parents, you say? Yeah, the parents. I'm saying don't don't get too harsh on your kid. I think the key is to help them enjoy the game. When I think as kids, when we do enjoy the sport a lot more and understand it, um that's when we really excel and have and learn to learn more about the game, actually. Um I think when you're harsh, it gets puts too much pressure on the kids. I think that's when I think that's a fight or flight situation. They learn to fight or they learn to flight, run away from it and avoid it. Um so I really think that keys to help them enjoy what they're doing.

Goals, Role Model, And Identity

SPEAKER_01 34:37

So, what does it mean for you to win on a global stage as a Singaporean golfer? Do you do you feel a responsibility to inspire the next generation, or is it still status quo for you? Like do you do you feel like you're being forced into a position of a role model, or is it still just me, James Leo, the professional golfer, doing my thing?

SPEAKER_00 35:03

No, I don't particularly feel like it's a responsibility for me to be a role model. I think at the end of the day, it's me. Um, you know, as James Leo, the professional golfer, I'm on my journey. Um I've set goals for every year. I know what they are, I know what the short-term goals and mid-term goals and long-term goals are. I'm out here to try to achieve what I've set out to do and dreamed of. You know, like I told you, I want to be in Augusta, walking down the 18 one-stroke lead with the whole gallery cheering on. So, you know, like that's the main goal and obviously Olympic gold medal. Um, that's the main goal that I've had. And, you know, nothing is gonna, nothing is gonna be stopping me from what I need to do. And uh in the process, if I do, you know, inspire the next generation of kids along the way, you know, it just goes to show that I'm doing the right stuff. Um and it's nice to be a role model. Um, I'm great, I'm grateful that you know I'm able to be in a position if that's the case. And you know, just gotta keep pushing the bar, keep pushing the ceiling. And if somebody breaks it, like the amateur-wise, you know, getting a lower rank more rank than me. Uh, if we're seeing breaking the top 20, I think that's all what you know Singapore golf is about. Just keep pushing the boundary sometimes. And if there's any future generation kids that come up and coming ones that do break the barrier and push Singapore golf, uh amateur and pro uh golf past that barrier, then you know, by all means, I'm really happy and I'll I'll trade on for them.

Off‑Season Prep And Access

SPEAKER_01 36:51

So you talked about your Olympic gold ambition and your Augusta ambitions. What part of your game are you most excited to evolve next on the journey to those objectives?

SPEAKER_00 37:07

I have to say just the overall short game mental side of things, um, feel like every part of my game has been in a good position. It's more so like mental when I overthink it, or just yeah, mostly of the time is I'm overthinking stuff, and that leads to a lot of additional feelings or emotions rather than keeping them in tech. But, you know, I feel like if I'm able to um really completely evolve that and push past what I am and play like I did in Saudi or uncle, um it's gonna be a good fun journey either ways. But I think that'll put me in contention a lot more often and in positions I always want to be.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

So, where do you see yourself in the next year and in the next five years? What will that version of James Leo look like?

SPEAKER_00 38:10

You know, I to be honest, like I really don't like looking ahead and like expecting my things out of myself. Um she had this share with her coach as well. It's just I mean, I don't I don't want to put pressure on myself or like expect that, hey, in two years' time, I need to be on the tour, I need to be on this tour, I need to qualify for this. I mean, things don't always go your way. And um, when you do expect them the most, that's the most disappointed you'll be when you don't get it. Um so I just personally I don't I've never you know put pressure on myself that way. I've just set goals that I want to try and meet and play my way there. Um so yeah, that's pretty much my golf right now. Just me, my golf, and my journey.

SPEAKER_01 39:05

Yeah, that's well. So what what's what's a typical day like for you now that you're in the off season? How are you going to prepare for the uh coming start of the season? What changed?

SPEAKER_00 39:18

Um you know what's funny? Um I actually don't have a golf club to play at right now. So I've been struggling with uh getting access, play on the course, especially in Singapore with limited access. Um, so I mean, you know, a few guys that my sponsors party has been nice enough to have some of the guys who are members at Tanamera to uh bring me in to play at Gardens or Tempanies to practice 18 holes with them. And obviously, right now my dad's a member at Salita Country Club, so I get some kind of like member guest uh access to go to the range, chip some balls, and that's been just the practice. Um, and obviously I see my trainer three times a week at the moment. So I'm still working on uh fitness and health. And when you're traveling a lot, it just takes a toll on health, especially. And my I got I didn't really feel that well or sick with my uh my stomach, wasn't eating well, so I lost a bit of weight there. Yeah, playing in golf, you really want to put on mass. I think as Bryson has shown, you know, when you got some mess, I think you'll be cruising at a higher club speed, and it would just get it out there and be more control the game. Um, but yeah, right now it's just limited to practice and just making do with whatever I have and whatever I can.

Performance Truths And Acceptance

SPEAKER_01 40:41

So what what what do you wish you knew earlier about performance?

SPEAKER_00 40:50

Real elite performance I think more on uh elite mental and scoring um situation. I think the mental acceptance that you don't have to have your best game tournaments or to contend in events. You can always go up there with a B minus, B plus, like in a C grid striking as you go out there and post the number on the score. I think the golf ball, the course doesn't know your age, who you are, or how you're hitting it. It only knows when the ball is in the hole. So you find a way you do it. I think that's the mindset that it could have adopted a lot earlier. Um and I think a lot of times in Singapore, and I think when I was a junior golfer, I think the lack of access to cost was the problem. So we will always be stuck at the range, hitting balls, tipping and putting. And I think sometimes we can get in the rabbit hole of uh technique. So definitely the mental scoring side of things. And I think the next thing was to learn to play without expectations or foreseeing the future. Um basically not expecting shots or results and just seeing the process, like if it's a tip, okay, I'm trying to hit a low one, I'm trying to land it in this area, I need to run out. Okay, if I can just do that, that's fine. That's all that I need to do. That's within what I can control. Rather than getting too technical with everything or the greens or whatever deal, overthinking it basically, is what I'm trying to say. And I think that leads to a mental flaw sometimes. So, you know, if I was younger and I knew all this on the mental aspect, I think I would have really loved it. And the next one that I mentioned was uh oh wow, I didn't even mention, lost track of that.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

Uh you talked you talked a lot about uh you know playing with at a high level of confidence and yet not being expectant of a certain outcome. That's so difficult, isn't it? When you uh when you have to birdie the last hole to make the cut, when you have to birdie the next three holes just to win and secure your playing privileges for the next year, like what are some practical exercises or drills that you've done with Coach Wallet to actually reach that state where, yeah, you know what, if if I make a birdie, great, if I don't, it's fine too. Where did you what what do you guys work on to reach that level of acceptance?

Drills For Present‑Moment Focus

SPEAKER_00 43:51

Yeah, um you know it's funny because we spoke about blocking out the external. Factor and focusing on internal, and we really broke it down to the form of discipline. I think it starts from your practices and your warm-ups. Being more deliberate about everything from when I'm warming up, I'm working on uh sequencing and timing, and then as I strike the ball, I'm working on hitting to segments. So when we say segments, as like I could put like maybe the two 50-meter bots out there as one space, one section. I'm trying to hit out to that section or segment. And then the next shot, I'm the next club that I'm hitting, I'm hitting to the other section. So when but between this section, I'm trying to hit fades, draw, straight, shots, and working my way up the back. So I don't really need to hit a lot of bots, but it's just more to build the feel and the mindset when I'm hitting the shots. You know, what am I thinking about? And just getting being more deliberate about it. So when I get on the course, I'm more deliberate about hitting these shots. Just more like setting up, knowing my process, draw, flight, direction, target line. And that's it. I don't need to think more than that. I don't need to think like, oh, the club needs to go here, here, here, my feet needs to be there. Uh it's more like uh being asflatic. And that really helps take the uh in indirectly, it's like a distraction from being result orientated. So I think it just really helped me focus and stay in my process.

SPEAKER_02 45:43

You know, it sounds so simple, but uh simplicity isn't always easy, you know? Yeah, especially in the moment when when you have uh, you know, you're coming down the stretch and you have very human emotions that are happening, very human anxieties that happen. And you know, the the for to put this in context, I I mean, I haven't reached a level that you have, James, but you know, let's just say in my own in my own amateur golf career, I've noticed for me that the more that I can stay in the moment, and that that almost staying in the moment, especially coming down the stretch, if you're close to the lead or you know intuitively, or if you've scoreboard watched, or for us playing amateur golf, if you look at golf genius and you see where you are relative to the leaders or qualifying for an event, it's uh it's one thing when you stay in the moment, you allow your body and your your natural state of being, the talent and everything that you've done to prepare comes out. And that's that the if you know a lot of people would say, you know, Scotty, for example, you know, he he's very, very, very, very much a present-time golfer. Very much stays in the moment, and that allows the inner aggressiveness to come out, that allows the excitement to over to overtake the fear or the anxiety. So I love the way you put it, James. And I think that that is so overlooked because it sounds cool, it sounds cliche, uh, and it sounds overly simple, but the process to play in the moment is the most difficult task I have ever done in my life. Period.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

You know what's funny? Because I think growing up, everyone's been taught to always remember stuff and think about it and have a really good thought process about whatever's happening, a hit, and foreseeing it and then doing it so you don't get in trouble. And I think sports is a little bit about a little bit of the opposite way. And I think John Ron put it in such a great way into 2021 uh FedEx Cup playoff when he talked about Ted Lustov being a goldfish. And I think that was like the quote that I embraced ever since. And being a goldfish is the best thing to any golfist. I really strongly believe that if you can forget that bad shot or whatever that just happened right away, just move on, you'll be in a good direction, you'll be you'll be moving in the right direction.

SPEAKER_01 48:41

Just like what uh Jack Nicholas uh famously answered when he was asked about three buttons. Jack said, I never three butt. That obviously wasn't true, but what he was saying was that I don't remember all these bad things.

Final Reflections And Thanks

SPEAKER_02 49:00

Yeah, I'm a Norman too. That's right, you know, that's right. Two of the two of the greats right there that said it. It's like, okay, if they're saying it, and James is talking about it, Justin. It's like for the listeners, I I think that those that are are are like James that are the one percent of the one percent, they really, really, really take what we talk about that's cliche, and and it's it's a big part of your toolbox. It's a big thing in your toolbell. It's like if if you if you're doing work, if you're working with a trainer three times a week and you're playing a level of golf that's extremely high against very, very good players, and you're playing for your living, that in and of itself, just that sentence that I just said is enough to make people freak out. So it really puts precedent on James on what you're talking about with these processes, not getting too far ahead of yourself. It's cool to look down the road, but not necessarily so good for your golf game. Yeah, I think there's a paradox there, you know. Uh you can look down the road, but make sure that you're rooted and grounded in present time.

SPEAKER_01 50:19

You know, we've talked a lot about uh many things, and I think that's emblematic of uh what it takes to succeed in professional golf, right? It's not just golf swing. I see so many juniors, all they want to do is hit 107 irons to that same target, and they want to make sure they hit it consecutive, hit the target consecutively. But then when they get out on the golf course, it's like, oh gosh, it's not a flat line anymore, is it? And then they have to pay what I call a translation tax because your practice doesn't resemble what the field of play requires of you. And then these guys, when they start playing a full-on four-day tournament, they they run out of gas on the third and fourth day because oh chefs and neglected the fitness aspect. And then when they start playing against better players, longer courses, harder courses, they go like, oh, I'm deficient mentally. And you know, all the things that you shared with us, James, so elegantly encapsulates what is needed to succeed at the very highest level. We're very thankful that you have uh taken time out of your busy schedule to share not only with Jesse and myself, but hopefully to the many Singaporean junior golfers that listen to this interview.

SPEAKER_00 51:41

Awesome. Thank you guys so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 51:43

Appreciate having you all as you and back on the new season.

SPEAKER_00 51:49

Thank you, appreciate it.