Are You Chasing A Better Swing Or A Better Score

We sit down with PGA Professional Brent Dale to talk about what actually makes golfers improve and why the internet’s “secret moves” often pull players backward. We dig into junior development, parent involvement, and how to blend old school coaching, smart tech use, and motor learning so practice translates to lower scores.
• why Australia produces so many elite golfers through multi-sport childhoods and better access
• the real economics of golf instruction and why value beats hourly price
• why social media golf tips seduce both beginners and good players into constant tinkering
• setting realistic junior goals without crushing ambition and building a roadmap
• how parents help by supporting the plan instead of coaching over it
• when tech like TrackMan helps and when it turns golf into “golf numbers”
• decluttering the swing by focusing on non-negotiables and one change at a time
• motor learning strategies that stick using slow swings, half swings, pause drills and repetition over months
• common instruction myths including over-shallowing and one-size-fits-all fixes
• how to develop discernment through tools design, ball flight laws and honest self-assessment

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Setup

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello, this is Jesse Perman from the Flag Hunter Golf Podcast. Welcoming you to another edition. This week, Justin and I have Brent Dale from Your Performance Podcast. Brent is a pro, teaching pro from Sydney, Australia. And in this conversation, we talk about uh boy, a couple of holistic golf junkie podcasts that go deep into what it takes to get better. We talk about the the parental involvement uh in children and wanting their children to get better and and maybe some proper perspectives around that. We discuss. We talk about some old school golf coaching and old school teachers that still share their wisdom and their players are still flourishing without too much tech. You know, I know we don't really go in and demonize tech, but we also say it like it is. It can help and it can hurt. So sit back, relax, listen. Your performance podcast that's available on all of the podcast directories with Brent Dale. And you can also see us at Fly Hunters. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe, and we'll have all the pertinent information in the show notes. Cheers, everyone, and thanks for tuning in. Along with my co-host Justin Tang from the Hidden Castle Golf Club in Singapore. We welcome you to another edition of the Flag Hunters Golf Podcast. Today, our guest is PGA Professional from Sydney, Australia. His name is Brent Dale. He is the host of your golf performance podcast. And make sure to look him up. He's on all the uh on the mediums out there, and we're about to have a great conversation. Brent, thanks for coming on, pal.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

Jesse, Justin, thank you so much for having me on.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

It's an honor.

Why Australia Produces Tour Pros

SPEAKER_03 2:28

Thanks, Justin. Thanks, mate. Uh, let's start with the Aussie culture, right? Aussies are just different. Tough, tough people. But I want to know why are Aussies so disproportionately represented on the PGA tour. You guys have a sm small population relatively, but from a sporting export point of view, it's amazing. Right? Yeah. I remember growing up uh in a game of golf watching guys like Robert Allen bee, Stuart Appleby, Peter O'Malley, and uh even guys that were on our podcast, Harry Tilkadaris. Like, why is that so?

SPEAKER_02 3:14

Look, I I think a lot of it goes back to like in Australia. You kind of grow up playing multiple sports. So I I like I'm 42. I would say, you know, I grew up in the 80s and 90s, and there wasn't really such a thing as sp early specialization, like there are so many kids these days at seven years old.

SPEAKER_03 3:39

You know, uh so Brent, why are Australians so disproportionately good at golf for a country with a small population? Like I recall growing up in the game of golf, watching guys like Robert Allen bee, Stuart Appleby, uh Steve Allen, Peter O'Malley, Peter Lona. Like the representation on the PGA tour is disproportionate to the size of your population. Wha why is that so?

SPEAKER_02 4:16

Look, I I mean it's a hard question to answer, but I also think you know in Australia there there's lots of kids that play multiple, multiple sports. It's not just, you know, early specialization from seven years old with you know golf only. You know, there's soccer, rugby, cricket, tennis, swimming. Like there's kids, kids are super active. When I was a junior golfer, you know, I was playing three or four different sports. And then probably at about you know, 13 or 14, I said, okay, I'm just gonna focus solely on golf. But I just think, you know, a lot of it it's cha the world's changing and it's evolving because of social media and YouTube and kids just sitting around on their butts these days. But I I think a lot of Aussie kids are out outside, outdoors, they're physically fit, they're they're running and jumping and playing sports a lot. And um, you know, I I also think that like there's a there's a fine line between being pushed and and pushing yourselves. I think a lot of kids need um maybe a slight little push these days, but you know, the era that you're talking about, like they they probably didn't have the distractions that kids have these days. Social media, you know, my kids first thing they do most mornings is pick up their their iPads and oh, what can I watch quickly on YouTube before I get ready for school? We didn't have that. So that the era that you're talking about there, those guys now that are sort of late 40s, 50s, all that we had to do was just be outdoors playing sport.

SPEAKER_03 5:58

And do you think what are your thoughts on infrastructure access? Like the cost of the game in Australia, for example, and the ease of getting to a golf course.

SPEAKER_02 6:10

Yeah, I mean just just about every town here has a golf course, right? Whether they are just your your public access golf course that's not that good or you know, right up to a to a high scale course. Um I definitely think uh cost of tuition and and coaching programs and all that here are quite cheap compared to other parts of the world. Um but then I also think like I've spent a lot of time in the US and uh and some of the programs over there are really expensive, right? Those some of those high-end programs. But I also think that whilst it's quite affordable here, I don't think parents understand how affordable it is here compared to US or Asia. Like um, you know, I think some of them would shy away at that they they'd be mortified if they knew what parents were paying in the US for a private lesson, you know. So um as far as like infrastructure, like a lot of the courses here, land value is extremely expensive here in in Sydney, or all of Australia for that matter. And I think drive golf courses having driving ranges now are getting less and less because a lot of them are selling them off for housing developments and that sort of stuff. I'm blessed where I am, the golf course that I'm at, we do have a range. It's not great, but it is a range, and you know, I don't think there is another golf course within 20 or 30 kilometers or you know, miles from where I live that that has what we have, so we're we're pretty blessed, and it'll never be bought out because we're on a floodplain, so that's a good part.

SPEAKER_03 7:55

So you talk about cost of instruction. I've seen some big name instructors charge anywhere from 500 to 900 dollars an hour. I I get that from a supply demand point of view, but every human can only learn X dollars worth of instruction per hour. Where do you think that stands for a 24 handicapper and a scratch player looking to get into plus figures?

SPEAKER_02 8:31

I'm smiling because you know I used to have a junior rate, so anytime a kid came, they got a significant discount. Um, what I realized was the busier I was getting with junior golf, the more hours I was working for less well, not all yeah, for less money. So if I filled my diary up 40 hours with with juniors, I would earn 30 to 40% less than if I coached adults. And um, a mentor that I've got said to me, you don't need to have a junior rate, just have an hourly rate, right? So I got rid of it and nothing changed, right? Parents were okay with paying the the full hourly rate. Um obviously your question, like your supply and demand thing is is spot on, right? People that are charging$500 to$900 for a for an hour lesson have probably earned the right to do that. So they may have been full at$150 an hour, so they went to$200 and it just incrementally kept going up and up. Like my rate, you know, I used to be$80 for an hour, you know, 10 years ago. Um, and some would say right now that my rate is high, and some would say my rate is too low. Like I only charge$140 an hour, and that's AUD. So, you know, Americans look at it and go, God, you're earning you're earning nothing. But um, I would try and do my coaching in groups as well, so it increases my hourly rate, and and people actually get more like time value out of it. Um, and then your question about the 24 marker and the scratch marker, like I I think regardless of what someone's charging, you need to, they need to have an understanding of the student's um capabilities. So I had a guy yesterday, a 17-year-old kid come for a lesson yesterday, and the two minutes into the lesson, and he pulled the back of his shirt up and said, I have had cancer in my back, my spine, and I'm gonna have possibly limited mobility. So we had to, you know, work some stuff yesterday around his his spine. Um, you need a coach that has an understanding of how everything moves for that individual person, and they need to care. I had the last student that I had yesterday, and I can say this on this podcast because they're probably well, they may hear it if I reshare it on my my uh socials, but this guy moved okay, but you know, he he's a 24 handicap, exactly what you were saying, and he wanted to get to 18. And I was kind of like, you know, this guy's putting a he'd had 15 lessons off another pro. And I asked, I don't like to badmouth other pros because there's always a reason. Someone's going to have leave left me and gone to another coach. And if my student has misinterpreted what I said, I'm going to look silly to that other coach, right? So I never slander or badmouth other coaches. A lot of the time it's the student misunderstanding, but um, this guy had had 15 lessons and they were just on the golf course because there was no driving range, and he he had no awareness of impact, he had no awareness of you know where he should have been swinging the club and this and that. And I was kind of angry at the coach for having taken this guy's money. So I think going back to what your question was, it's all relative. Like if I paid Jesse$900 for a lesson and it got me on my way to better, isn't it better than paying someone$90 for 10 lessons and not getting any anywhere?

Social Media Tips And The Shortcut Trap

SPEAKER_03 12:17

For sure, man. I think on a release might reach 900 bucks now. Yeah. You only mentioned socials, right, Brett? Yeah. It's to me a double-edged sword. Yeah. On the one hand, it showcases the knowledge and the information of pros that have painstakingly set at the feet of experts to learn it. And then on the other hand, you've got randos that start mouthing off and say, hey, there's a secret, there's a shortcut to get your 30 yards further, you play five strokes lower as the case may be. Like how how do you think it's a detriment to people who are looking to improve the golf soon and the game?

SPEAKER_02 13:12

I'm I'm very filtered on online because I don't want people to truly know what goes through my head when I scroll social media. Um I think what you said there is some people have sat at the foot of like experts and learnt everything. And you know what? Some of the best coaches in the world have 700 followers online or a thousand followers. Like I and then this is what I've learned. You know, I'm four years, four nearly five years deep into my podcast journey. And um I will have people message me and go, hey, you need to speak to, for example, there's a guy in California called John Horner, he's a head pro at Cordoval Golf Course in um Silicon Valley or whatever it is up near San Fran. And I go and check out his socials, and he's got, you know, 1200 followers, but he is one of the best coaches in America. He is coaching the number one women's amateur in the world, and he has no time to sit there and try to fix hooks and slices for random people on the internet. And what you said, Justin, like there are people coming along now. It's just the way the world has moved. Like, can someone go on a diet these days without blog uh vlogging it all over social media and saying this is what I ate today? Um, I'm getting a little bit sick of influence, oh, influences in brackets saying, um, you know, watch my journey. I'm gonna go from a 24 handicap to scratch this year. And I'm like, can I swear on this podcast? Yeah, bar away. Like, fuck, can we just respect the fucking game a little bit more than saying I'm gonna go from a 24 handicap to a scratch in a year? Like, in my opinion, scratch is a lifetime journey. Journey. Right? There are there are people that are members at my club who, yeah, they can shoot five, six, seven under when they go play. They're off scratch plus one or whatever, and they've been at it their whole life. And then you get some random person who decided, okay, I'm gonna quit my office job and I'm gonna I'm gonna take up golf, and I'll be off scratch by the end of the year. I'm not saying it's impossible, but please, I would like people to start respecting our game just a little bit more.

SPEAKER_03 15:36

Let me add that, right? Greg McNomlin took two years, and you are gonna take one year, but yeah, I know give me a brig. And uh even you had a 2007 US amateur uh champion. What's the guy's name? Nick? Oh, yeah, oh three, Nick Flanagan. Oh Nick Flanagan. He took he also took something like two years from zero to hero.

SPEAKER_02 16:03

I remember him like because he was a year below me in junior golf, and he was he was a phenomenal talent. He I remember our state junior. He turned up, he was like first reserve and he couldn't get a game. And he said to the lady, when he didn't get it, in a really nice way, he said, It's all good, I'll be back next year and I'll be winning. And he did. He turned up a year later and he won. That that guy was phenomenal. If he didn't have the injuries that he had, yeah, he would have been uh, you know, probably a top ten player in the world.

SPEAKER_03 16:38

Yeah, so so you talk about you talk about being a top ten player. I think a lot of Twitters are also subject to the same seductions of social media. I I realize some of the the guys that I teach, they go like, hey, you know what's this new move that people are are looking at on Instagram, YouTube. So the they don't have that defensive barrier up in front of them. They too get sucked into stuff, they too start trying things and sometimes, or most of the time, they need to come back and get fixed to get to where they were before they tried to put this part into the system. That makes sense. Right. I think I think a lot of a lot of good golfers get sucked into this.

SPEAKER_02 17:32

I had a student once who played, um, he played on the Australian Tour and PJ Tour China when they I don't know if that's still running, but yeah, he was he was up there. He changed it to the China Tour. Yeah, okay. So he he was playing all of that, and um he would send me Instagram videos. Oh, look how good this guy swings it. I want to swing it like this. Now, if I showed you this kid's swing, the only thing that was stopping him from being one of the best in the world was what was going on between his ears because he had one of the best golf swings, but would just self-sabotage all the time, you know. So Yeah, I I think, you know, if uh one of my good buddies is one of the best online coaches in the world, and he he has Ryder Cup players DM him and say, Hey, can you just have a look at my swing and give me some thoughts? Like, you know, I don't I I think that's the problem. Well, not the problem, that's just golfers in general, right? We're all obsessed with getting better. And is there a is there a secret source that's just around the corner that someone could just mention to me and and help me?

SPEAKER_01 18:40

Boy, that is the seduction, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 18:42

Yeah. I got asked this question. I said, I said to the guy, I said, look, if the ball is doing what you want it to do, what's there to fix? I said, go practice your short game or something. Or go go rest. That's it, man. Why are you pounding balls? No reason to.

SPEAKER_02 19:03

I I think just on that, I think sometimes there is some people's brains tick that they feel like they have to be doing more than than what they need to, or they get into a certain tournament and they feel like, okay, I need to practice all day Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and by Thursday they're burnt out and tired. So it's probably one thing I've learned from the the players that I've had on the podcast is they started to figure out pretty quickly, you know, maybe nine holes on a Tuesday and nine holes on a Wednesday, and just doing a little bit of practice was all that they needed to do, as long as the course was mapped out by the caddy.

Junior Goals And Parent Expectations

SPEAKER_03 19:40

Yeah, and I think I think this is where more intense sports like uh say swimming, say AFL, these guys don't go play a full match the day before a competition. Oh, correct. Yeah, so they stay fresh, right? So I mean take extending that mindset to golf. Like you you want to stay fresh and and show up on Thursday, like, okay, let's go, man. Not like burnt out as you pointed. Yeah, not Preck. Yeah. And that's just part of the holistic approach that so drew me to your golf performance podcast. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

Look, you know, the reason that I started it was I believed there was a mismatch between parents' expectations and and junior golfers for that matter, and output. So I I I thought that I I'd got sick of hearing, you know, I might have had a a junior in my program who was 16 and off 12, and I'm like, you know, oh, when I finish school, I'm gonna go to Q school and I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do that. And it's like, I think we might need to just step up the um the work ethic a little bit more if or change the expectation. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So look, I I had a kid about six months ago come and do a trial for my program, and female, 16 years old, handicapped 12. And I said, What's your, you know, what's your goals? I love kids that have aspirations. And she said, Um, Olympics. I'm gonna, I'm gonna play golf in the Olympics. And I'm like, oh, okay, so like Brisbane, like 2032, she said 2028. I can't remember where it is, is it LA or something like that? But anyway. Yeah, it's over the era. Yeah, yeah, she said no, 2028. And I'm like, I'm looking at my watch and I'm looking at the date, and I'm like, we got an Fload of work to get done if that's what you think in two years. I think just sometimes there's a little bit, it's good to have that mindset of, you know, I can achieve it. But I think sometimes you need to set realistic goals and go, okay, am I gonna be the number one? I can't remember what country. Her background was from, but they weren't going to try to do it for Australia. They were going to try to be it, it was another country. And um I think sometimes we've just got to set some realistic goals of is that timeline correct? It'd be like finishing school and saying, I'll be on the PGA tour next year. And we all know that's going to take years to get to. Unless you're a late program.

SPEAKER_03 22:21

Yeah. I always tell people if you're not shooting under par on your own home course from the tips on a bad day, yeah. It's going to be a stretch.

SPEAKER_02 22:32

But sometimes you feel like you're crushing dreams, right? But I think I think it is you need to just be realistic with expectations.

SPEAKER_03 22:42

You know about sorry, Jeff's.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

No, no, I wanted to add to that real quick. Because, you know, I get Brent what you say about you don't want to crush dreams. And if somebody has uh, you know, pretty, pretty absurd aspirations, I say that in the in the in a good sense, you don't want to crush their dreams. But why not say, okay, if that's the case and you're truly committed to it, let's build a map and let's go ahead and start, you know, uh, you know, this this process. Because even if he or she doesn't achieve that goal in a year or two, whatever, they're going to be a lot better than they were. Yeah, I completely agree.

SPEAKER_02 23:28

I think if the problem that we have here in Australia is they would balk at what things would cost. Like, okay, this is how much coaching we should do. And coaching doesn't just mean standing on the lesson T hitting balls all day. It's like, you know, let's do on course, let's go and play some other golf courses together, um, practice games, all that. And then, you know, golf-specific physio, uh, a fitness trainer, maybe a mental coach. You start adding all that up, and most Aussie parents will turn around and go, oh, no, no, no, you just got to do this on your own, figure it out. And if you're not, if you're not any good by 17, we're not gonna worry. You can just go get go to uni or go get a job. But you look at America, you look at America, and I would I would argue that it's pretty different. Like there are parents that well, in even Asia, like they some of those junior programs in the US are sixty to seventy thousand dollars a year and they're sending their kids to them. Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. I find I find it I I find it hard. There would be parents here that would do it, but the percentage would be extremely low.

SPEAKER_03 24:40

Parents can be a double-edged sword, right? I've seen parents who are just hands-off, like you do what you need to do, and then there's some who are 24 handicappers. They think you know the golf thing.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

And you know what though, I think at the end of the end of the day, it all comes down to the internal motivation of the junior. Yeah, yeah.

Old School Coaching Versus Tech

SPEAKER_01 25:01

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, yeah, that's gonna ultimately drive the ship. Hmm. They should drive, they should be driving it. Yeah, that's ultimately gonna drive the ship. Yeah. I get those same, I get some of those same DMs too. Um, I've gotten some parents that have that have reached out to me and asked me what my thoughts were. Hey, I have a son, he's 15, he just started playing, he wants to play D1 college golf. And and I would just I I've just responded by saying you want to find a good swing coach, that's for sure, but you want to find one that's also holistic. Um man, I gotta tell you, I I don't know, I don't know quite how I feel about the entourage of coaches. You know, I don't think Scotty's got an entourage of coaches, I think he's got one. Yeah, he does. Well, I think it's just Randy. I think it's just Randy, but Randy, you know, learned from some pretty damn good teachers holistically. So, you know, Butch is a holistic teacher.

SPEAKER_03 26:04

Um these guys are old school, but they are tech savvy as well. It's just that it's not apparent. It's not that they walk around with their trackmans and foresight. But these guys, these like like Butch Harman's always fond of saying, he pointing to his eyes, these are my trackmans. Yeah. And he he makes a good point. He he often tells uh younger coaches, if you can't teach without your gadgets, you've got to find something else to do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:31

Well, and I you know what, I I got all the gadgets, and someone I gave eight, eight lessons yesterday. Eight, nine, no, nine people I saw yesterday. And I didn't have a single gadget out. And I think halfway through the day, one of my students, who's really he likes the numbers and he only practices at a track man bay and this and that, he said to me, like, because I got indoor and outdoor, and he said, Did do you ever use the indoor? And I'm like, Yeah, when I feel like I need it, but right now you can't contact the ground well. So if we go and hit off mats, it's probably gonna get masked. You could catch it a little heavy and the club will bounce onto the ball. And whereas out here you catch it heavy, it's heavy. And I think it makes me need to actually work harder as a coach outdoor without tech. Yeah, okay. Indoors what what I hate is someone can be hitting great shots, or like using tech, they can be hitting great shots and they see a number they don't like or they think is bad, and they start to get really like it could be Club Path. Oh, it's not supposed to be left. Every everywhere I've read Club Path's supposed to be right or whatever. And and they kind of then lose a little bit of I don't know, they they could be really happy where they are, and then they read the numbers and get deflated. And zero dots. Like what, yeah, well, like you were saying, like Butcher's saying with his eyes, I really like looking at what the ball's doing in the sky and working backwards from there. But it's also important if I have a student turn up and they're absolutely flushing it, I do like to go record the numbers. Yeah, they don't have to see them. Just so if we ever get off track again, hey, this is when you were playing exceptionally well, you've just had the best tournament of your career. These were these were our numbers, and we'll pull them back out and have a look later on, sort of thing.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Yeah, I like that. Bryson Bryson does that. He has done it. He did it with Mike Sche a lot, where they recorded when he was swinging well. But you know, that you know, getting back to uh the topic, you know, I'm gonna ask any student, any any seeker that's listening right now, are you playing golf or are you playing golf numbers? Is the ball are you gonna are you gonna are you gonna play golf swing or are you gonna try to get the ball in the hole as little times as possible, especially when it's a meaningful round? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:05

Um I I used that yesterday in a lesson. I said, are we like what's the goal here? Are we just trying to write a a smaller number on the scorecard, or you want you want things to look differently in your swing? And they said, Oh, well, I guess the goal is to have a smaller number on the scorecard, you know, because some people get really bogged down in things looking perfect, and and I just think it's the age that we live in right now with social media. No, no one posts, no one posts crap on social media. It's all everything's perfect, you know.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

You you know whose social media I love to follow? My favorite. My absolute favorite professional golfer to follow is Anthony Kim. Yeah. He is he is it's so real, real as you can get. Yep. You know, wow. I mean, he he does not sugarcoat anything, he's very real and uh he speaks the truth. I think it's very powerful.

SPEAKER_02 30:03

And I think a lot of times people don't like hearing the truth, you know, it brings out their own insecurities.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

Well, without a doubt, without a doubt. I mean, yeah, I mean, Justin, you've got issues with with that stuff with some of your pros too, a little bit, you know? Sometimes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:21

You know, talk about talk about the the tiger parent dynamic. Like, how how involved should parents be? Like you see, you see all these parents teaching junior golfers, and then you go like, wait a minute, you're you're you're a 24 marker, like what do you actually know, right? Like it doesn't mean doesn't mean you you spend time on YouTube makes you a golf swing expert. I often say this to some of the parents of uh the juniors I teach. If an 18-wheeler trailer called Perfect Golf Swing hit you in the face, you wouldn't know. Like it's it's it's the ball flight. Like, can this this swing action make a repeatable ball flight? That's one and we get there first, then we see if it's optimized. You don't change things for the sake of changing. Changing. And I think I think a lot of people try to be like uh like uh a tiger parent in like Eldritch his dad, Tigerwood's dad, used to regale used used to capture the imagination of the world in the late uh 90s with his Greenberry style teaching. And I think a lot of parents get sucked into this, like, oh I want to be a parent of a golf crow. Like great, but like what you said, right? Like there are gaps to get from here to there, there's a massive gap. Like, do you know A what it is and B how to fix that? Like, how do you deal with parents who who who try to live vicariously through the kids and just end up ruining them?

SPEAKER_02 32:07

Yeah, I I I think the first thing is if there's coaches out there that are listening that are struggling with this, it's it's not a bad thing because I also have the opposite end of the spectrum where parents just drop kids off and don't care. Right? It's just how can I get them out of my hair and and you know, and I'll pretend that I want them to be good at golf and I'll get upset when they play bad, but I won't actually be there to help with anything. So I think you know, having the parent that is super, super keen and super, I guess we'll use the term pushy and over-the-top or helicopter parent, whatever you call it. I think it's okay if you can channel it in the right direction. So when I was younger, um it used to do my heading because I I think I was young and they didn't respect me as well. So it was it was all them. And now if I have a parent of a kid or a new kid come or whatever, I think they're coming because maybe the podcast that I do has built up my reputation a little bit. And I always say this, my knowledge now and five years ago, it's still pretty similar. I've learned a shitload more, but the overarching message is all the same, or even 10 years ago. Um, but I think just the more you the more info you put out, the more people can tend to respect you. And um, it's it's getting that parent to to do it on, I guess on your terms, um, or do it in the right way. So if they want to have that heavy involvement, it's like, yeah, sweet, but we we need to do this together, not I tell them A and then you tell them B the next day, and then they end up confused and end up at C. Right. So let's let's just try to let's try to do it together. And every every lesson that I give, I record maybe a three to seven minute video at the end, and I upload it into the coaching platform that I use. And that is there for the student and the parent to be able to watch it to make sure that we don't go off track. Now, I will I will say this. A lot of kids will have the lesson, and the parents kind of think that's it. Like, okay, that's fixed. I don't like the word fixed, but that's helped, you know. Helped all that they need. Right. Now, the real work lies between that lesson and the next lesson, right? So it's the let's just say it's spaced out for two weeks or three weeks or whatever it is, those 13 to 20 days between. That's where the parent's job kicks in. And it is trying to do exactly what that video says, or if they've sat in on the lesson, exactly what the coach has said, um, and not skewing away from it. If the kid hits a shit shot, let them hit a shit shot, right? Go back to the drills. Don't say, oh, let's try this or let's try that. No, no, no. Coach has given you a plan. You know, maybe, maybe you could ask a few questions back to the coach of like, is this working the correct way? But honestly, it is such a tightrope of you need the overbearing parent because you know that they care and they want the most for their kid, right? So I tell them to do this or make this little grip change. They are, if they're on board, they're gonna do it. They're gonna get the kid to do it, right? But then there's that, hey, the kid probably needs a little bit of downtime. Like, how about you go and have a drink in the club while they do a set of drills or some practice games or you know, I I'm big on like obviously learning learning the right technique and skills and getting that right, but I really like to blend a lot of like performance-based practice into kids' development so that when they go and play a junior tournament, they don't shit their pants. Okay, I've already practiced with Brent, and it was way harder and way more nerve-wracking. You'll never be able to make it more nerve-wracking than that first T or that winning part. But we try to do it in our junior academy where I, you know, put as much pressure on the kids as I can so that when they go play a tournament, it kind of feels that way already.

SPEAKER_03 36:28

Yep. I often tell people if you don't practice according to the demands of of the tournament or the field of play, then on the day itself, you have to pay a translation tax.

SPEAKER_02 36:45

Yeah. I love that. Well sad. I might steal that one off you, Justin.

SPEAKER_03 36:55

You know, you you you have a presence on skills, and you talk a lot about decluttering the swing. Like, give give our listeners a flavor of your philosophy. How do we get better faster? So what should we be looking out for?

SPEAKER_02 37:15

I don't I don't know if I use the word fast anymore. I think like going back to that whole journey of 24 to scratch, like I I had two 30-year-olds come for a joint lesson yesterday, and I said to them, Look, guys, what I need you to understand, this is the guy that's had the 15 lessons, and his patterns were pretty awful. Um I said to him, what I need you to understand is you're 30 years old, and there are people that are playing here right now on the golf course that are in their 80s. So you've got 50 years ahead of you to, you know, quote unquote master this game. Um, what I need you to not do is rush the next six months of this development because I want you to get it right, and I don't want you to just revert back to um, you know, I guess what feels comfortable. But um look, I would say the first, and I'll openly say this, right? Probably the first seven or eight years of me coaching, I coached what I was taught as a uh like a an a a trainee pro here. So we do three year apprenticeship here as a pro before you're fully qualified, and I was getting lessons and um I kind of I kind of taught that the whole shaft swing plane thing, which is in my opinion, it's very important. But golfing machine, you mean? No, so you heard of Gary Barter?

SPEAKER_03 38:44

Yes, uh, he's a legend.

SPEAKER_02 38:46

Yeah, so yeah, so I used to get lessons not off him, but his offsider, and they they coached pretty much the same. So it was all about swing plane, which is I I still think it's super important, but I think I got so tied into down the line view and what the shaft was doing that I I didn't know any better about other stuff. Um, and now I would say like I I sorry, going back to those early days, I was in a rush. How can I fix this person, you know? And what I've realized now is I don't necessarily care about the person feeling like they've left 100% better in lesson one. I I might make a grip tweak, some stance, posture, ball position, early parts of the takeaway. So I like to get that organized and then talk to them about. So if we use the P system, so let's let's get addressed and you know, P1, P2, P3 in order. And and I don't necessarily use the P system when I'm saying it to them, but that area there. And then once that's organized, we can start with four, five, six, and then you know, then it can be seven, eight, nine, you know, that I may throw a nine in after like a thought of nine after three sort of thing. So hey, we want to finish here. But I think I've I've really now I've just got non-negotiables with how I want them to turn in their takeaway or how I want the club moving back. And obviously everyone has different parameters, but uh like I'm not in a hurry anymore. So I used to do a lot of 30-minute lessons, and I don't hardly do 30 minutes anymore. It needs to be an hour because at least for the first session, um, otherwise I feel like I'm doing them a disservice, even though it costs them more money. It it needs to be an hour so that we can get shit organized or at least figure out what the cause is.

Motor Learning That Actually Sticks

SPEAKER_03 40:48

I love that. Hmm. So talk about how do we download skills to the brain? A lot of people have experienced this phenomenon. Just saw Brand, great lesson. Two weeks later, like, oh, everything's gone to pieces. And you don't understand there's a difference between short-term memory and long-term memory. Can you talk to our listeners on how you how to help them bridge this gap?

SPEAKER_02 41:20

So there's a couple of things. The first thing I'm gonna mention is I just had three weeks in New Zealand. My car in Australia has a handbrake, right? I've got to pull the handbrake up. The car in New Zealand had a footbrake. So left of the normal brake, there was a footbrake, right? You have to push it in. Now, the first week in New Zealand, every time I parked the car, I pulled up this handbrake that wasn't there. And then I went, oh, I've got to push the footbrake, right? And then obviously I got back a couple days ago. So the last two days, I've been driving my normal car with the handbrake, and when I pull up, I just about push my foot into the motor because I'm like searching for that footbrake. And, you know, there used to be a thing going around that, you know, to make a change, you had to do it 50 times a day for 21 days, and there's your, you know, your thousand reps. And I said to a few students yesterday, just just like what we're taking on board, it doesn't feel normal now. But like the footbreak thing, I'd forgotten after a couple of days in New Zealand that okay, I don't have a handbrake. And the foot thing was automatic. I don't remember putting that footbreak on the last week and a half that I was there. And then as soon as I've come back, my brain was programmed to use a footbreak when you park. So I think you need to understand like, how do we you used a term just a minute ago that was brilliant about like how do we, I guess, etch it into our body? Oh, download it into a download it, right? Now, I think I've had a couple of motor pattern, you know, motor learning experts on my podcast, and both of them have kind of have you had uh you had will woo on, right? No, no, no. I've had um Dr. Rob Neal. Oh, yeah, that's that's brilliant. Yeah, and Luke Benoit from Florida, right? So both of those are kind of in agreement, they're a little bit different, but um Rob Neal said six to 24 months of doing the right moves will make it feel natural, and Luke said six months to lifetime. Um, and you know, I think we have patterns that we all fall back to. And if you you're always gonna have a day where you might go practice and you literally fall back to holy shit, I feel like I've made no progress, right? And I think it's it's okay to have those days, but how I like my students to to progress with this is, and a lot of this is I've done some work with Rob Neal here in Sydney. Like I like half swings, so it could be full speed, but a half swings. Half a half swing, um, like depending on what they're they're working on. Uh, I like slow swings, so it could be a feeling of 10%, nailing every position that we've spoken about, and they're doing it at 10%. I record it and I show them like, hey, we can do this at 10%. Let's do it at 20, let's do it at 30, let's do it at 40, and and gradually build it up over time. Um, and then kind of freezer drills where we would swing back and pause in the correct position if we're talking about say P4 or whatever, and then they've maybe count to five and then they've got a hit from there. Um, but I I've kind of I use this sort of five to one ratio where they've got to do five practice swings without a ball, feeling the correct move. Then they can hit one at half pace, half swing, whatever it is, really slow, or a freezer drill. Then they go back to five practice swings and then the one ball, and they kind of repeat that five times. So they may have done 25 movements, five shots, and then on the after they've done that, they can just hit one full shot and then they come back and they do the cycle again. Whether they're working on an impact thing or a top of their backswing, whatever it is, they they have to only work on that. They're not thinking of three different things, it's just one to try to nail that down. And that's where I've found the most improvement. But to be honest, the most improvement for me comes from students that have done like martial arts and that as well, where they've had that disciplined, disciplined background.

SPEAKER_03 45:32

Yeah, that's very, very true.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

Yeah, I I I really like that, and I want to add one thing for both of you, both of you esteemed instructors, and something that I'm personally going through. So, you know, this is gonna pertain to good players, good players that take lessons from good coaches. And one thing that I've been going through, and how I'm correlating this, is that I like the slow, it's like when you're learning to play the guitar, you're not gonna just start learning how to shred chords, it's gonna be one thing at a time, and it's gonna be slow, and it's gonna take a long time for your hands to get strong enough to be able to hold a tune and put the fingers on the fret throat correctly. You know, that that that takes a while. I mean, that's that's how I've been correlating this journey a little bit. And I like the slow motion part, what you guys have said. Um, anything that you could do that the nervous system is going to give a green light to accept the data. And, you know, the nervous system, my nervous system never gave me a green light to accept the data when I was trying quick fixes, trying to do it at full speed, trying to do it on the golf course, thinking of three different things at once, not giving one chains a chance to solidify and moving on to the next in the ladder. And uh, you know, that's kind of like the seductive part of all John Q Instagram pros and YouTube pros is they're skipping a lot of steps, you know, like the sexy shallow move that's in, you know, that that's like, well, there's some steps to get there, pal. You know, some people need stafe as well. That's exactly right. So, but anyway, um, getting back to what you guys are talking about. Do you ever tell students we got to just do this one step at a time? Like we have to go one step at a time and really drive that home.

SPEAKER_03 47:39

I I've even told them to consider a different spot if they don't want to change how they approach learning the golf swing. I said, this is not this is not running where you just run in your forest gun style and you keep doing it and doing it and doing it. You will be able to build a stamina to complete a marathon. I said, but golf is a totally different animal.

SPEAKER_02 48:08

Yeah, I mean it's I also think there are some people that have learning disabilities, and I'm not saying that in a bad way. I just think I would I could say to someone, can we just do this at 10%? And the swing speed does not change. Um, I think they process some people just have a hard time actually physically processing information that's given to them. And um Yeah, I I think I'm getting stricter and stricter on those, like what Justin said, where they know they mean I I'd like to tell people sometimes, like, hey, like this, this is not for you. But I think golf is for everyone. But we need to understand that going to YouTube, and there is great information on YouTube now, if you know. I put a post up last night, it's all my stories on Facebook, it'll be gone by the time this gets out. But I wrote down of all the people that I coached yesterday, I don't think any of their issues overlapped. And I I I screenshot it and I I put it up there and I said, I don't know how people go and search online for tips when you know these eight or nine different people had eight or nine different problems. And it it's it's a lottery that you're finding the right video for yourself. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:31

I think I think all the golf tips there are great, but are they good for you? That's what people need to understand. Like, look, all the medications in the world. Like, look, if you're a young buck, why are you fiddling around the cap of the uh Viagra? You don't need it. It's good for if you're 60, but not when you're 16. Yep. You know, you talk a little wait guys, before I forget this thought, right? You talk about slow motion things. I like something that Dr. Luc Benoit talks about. Using a foam ball. And I've done this in in the past, but he explains it really elegantly. Like your body ex uh uh anticipates impact. But because it's a foam ball, there is a disconnect between outcome of a great shot, solid impact, too, like uh it's just it's just something there. And that kind of rewires the whole brain. Yeah. That that was really good.

SPEAKER_02 50:33

Do you use that with your your kids? I don't, I don't, I have phone balls, but I don't use them. My my kids, my own physical kids, yeah. We've got a practice net downstairs and they have phone balls that they hit into. So maybe there's something to it. But I I have a lot of students that I will tell them that the next two to three weeks of your learning is not uh it actually needs to be into a practice net at a golf club. So so there's no I don't want any attachment to outcome of what the ball's doing because I need your brain to be able to um take on board what we're trying to do. Or if they've got a simulator at home, I'm like, okay, sweet, you can use it. Just don't turn the projector on, don't turn the flightscope or don't turn track man on, whatever you've got, don't turn anything on, just hit into the actual net and you can record your swing so that you can actually just watch and make sure that you're you're hitting those positions. But you know, then there's an art, right? It's like hitting those positions are great, but can we play golf hitting those positions? We need to be able to still score as well as we can.

SPEAKER_03 51:37

It's interesting, you talk about positions and art in martial arts. If I stop to think, okay, I'm gonna give uh Brenner a right hook, I need to do a right lateral band and then move my my my right back door, I'll be dusted by you. And next thing you know, I'll be on the on the mat. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 52:01

It all it all becomes instinct, right? Yeah, like you I I I I just played three weeks worth of golf over in New Zealand, and I could not tell you what I don't have a swing thought. And it's uh I reckon I've gotten better in the last 10 years of golf. Like I've become more, I don't like the word consistent, but I've become more consistent in my golf. And I think it's because uh five days of the week, I am showing people the correct way to move. So I'm actually practicing, I'm getting paid to work on my golf swing. Right? Like, okay, this is how we've got to feel. We've got to pressure into the left side, we've got to, you know, it starts at the feet and it works its way up and we we rotate around. So I'm I'm I'm probably showing that 200 times a day and you know, throughout a lesson throughout my lessons. And then when I go play golf, it's like, well, I've I've done all my homework.

SPEAKER_03 52:54

Super high quality practice without a ball, slow motion, and I have a video.

SPEAKER_02 52:59

Yeah, I have a video on my Instagram page. It was probably posted in May 2025, so you'd have to scroll back a little bit, but it's Brett Rumford. Oh, yeah. He was he was out here for a um short game session coaching thing with um Rob Neal, and the PGA put it on, and he was in the bunker and he was talking through every foot basically of his golf swing, where he had to feel, where he had to be. And it was just this really deliberate, and then he stepped in and he hit it in like one second type thing. But it's a great watch for people to understand that the best of the best in short game are still being super deliberate in their movements, they don't just step up and go, I'll just do my best. Like he would probably stand in front of a mirror making sure that he's hitting those positions all the time. Yeah, and it's similar to me. Like, I'm standing in a studio or I'm on the range and I'm showing them the positions that they need to feel and move into, and that's just brick by brick is making me a better golfer as well.

SPEAKER_03 54:10

Uh, in in closing, Brent, I want to ask you this question what is the biggest myth in uh golf instruction right now? What is something that everyone believes is true, but you think is bullshit?

SPEAKER_02 54:26

Wow. Are you talking like a technical?

SPEAKER_03 54:31

It could be anything. Like for me, for me, some guys think that early extension is a bad thing. I I don't think I don't think so. So something along those lines.

SPEAKER_02 54:40

Some people Yeah, I mean I think every the way I look at the golf swing now is you could look at every myth or every um hot topic, and it could be great or it could be shit for X like X person. So you look at the eight, nine students that I had yesterday, and early extension might be needed by three of them. Um shallowing, like I I I th I I'm very big on swing plane, right? But I do believe we went through a period of time for a while there. I think George Gankers is a great coach. But I think that whole, you know, we gotta get like this, and I I think some people watching that it may have wrecked their golf swing because some people try to get too shallow and their center of mass moves back behind and they just chunk the shit out of it.

SPEAKER_03 55:40

Um, you're already shallow enough, and you want to shallow it even more.

SPEAKER_02 55:44

Yeah, and I look, I have a guy that I coach that the first few sessions we tr he was really steep, and we tried to, you know, I like to see as that club's coming down from the top in transition, I like to see the shaft kind of maybe sit on the right bicep. And I used to always like it through the elbow, so I've probably raised how, but I don't want it to be as shallow as what I used to. But you know, we were trying to get this guy shallow and it wasn't quite working. And it turns out he's got two bad knees. His upper body is his power source, his lower body, it can't function the way that younger people could. So by me shallowing him, he lost about 30 yards and caught it fat all the time. So we sort of said, okay, we actually need the shaft on that way down to pitch a little taller, maybe through the right shoulder, not the right bicep. And his distance was back, his striking was back, and it was the best he was playing. So I'm not gonna say I'm being very on the fence with your question here. Because I'm not gonna say shallowing is a crock of shit, but I think maybe we it got a little out of hand for a little while there. But seek out a prof speak out, seek out a professional that can help you and figure out what you actually need. Yeah, I think sorry, I didn't give you your controversial answer there, Justin.

SPEAKER_03 57:12

Sorry about close enough. I think I think most most people what what they do, right, is that they take something good and then they're like, hey, if two aspirins are good, let's just take the whole bottle. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:26

Actually, Steve Bann, who coached, um, he coached a lot of great players, but KJ Choi, I remember Steve Bann at a conference, I'm gonna say 16 years ago. Apparently he said to KJ Choi, I want you to do this change and I want you to hit um, you know, I want you to do it a hundred times a day. I'm I'm just plucking numbers now, a hundred times a day, and I want you to do it for 30 days. So, you know, 3,000 movements. And KJ said, Can I just do all 3,000 balls day one? And he's like, No, that's that's not how it works. Like, I want you to gradually ingrain this over time. So, like what you were saying about the aspirins, I think some people just think, can I just do I think a lot of us have ADHD tendencies these days where we find a habit or golf, whatever it is, and you everyone's eggs are in the basket for like the first two or three weeks, and then they go, Oh, fuck, I'm a bit over this. And then they just drop off. The amount of people that have four or five lessons and just go, golf's way too hard.

SPEAKER_01 58:30

Right? What did what did Bruce Lee say? I would rather practice one punch consciously versus a hundred punches unconsciously.

SPEAKER_03 58:43

And something along those lines.

SPEAKER_01 58:44

Something along those lines, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:46

And that comes back to a good range session for me. A good range session for most of my students is in the lounge room at home, in front of a mirror or in front of the reflection of a glass window, where they can see, okay, I really like when the shafts parallel to the ground, I like the club head roughly covering the hands, I like the hands at the top, covering the shoulders, you know, yada yada yada. Just just refine that movement without a golf ball, then go to the range and try to copy it versus getting a bucket of a hundred balls and and doing it poorly and being no better off.

SPEAKER_01 59:23

Yeah. People are searching for that dopamine hit. Yeah. You know, uh, I I tell some some uh some of my fellow members at my club, you know, sexy, sexy is doing the the mundane things that matter over and over again. Um, the best player in the world works on his basic fundamentals over and over again.

SPEAKER_02 59:46

I'm pretty sure Scotty Scheffler carries a club with a grip trainer. Yeah, like and he just he, you know, he's just the best player in the world working on his grip.

SPEAKER_01 59:56

Yeah day in, day out. Arnold Palmer did that too.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:01

Yeah. I mean, there's something to be said for that. You know, greatness is really can be uh one of the one of the great measures of greatness is doing those unsexy things very well.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:11

What David Let's see. Extraordinary players do the ordinary, extraordinarily well. That's what he said.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:23

And you know what? I think uh out of a lot of the guests that I've had on over the years, like the coaches guests, like they say that the the the best of the best do the boring shit even when it's boring. That's the you know that that's that's interpreted into my that's interpreted into my terms. They said it more professionally than that. But you know, how boring is it going and putting a putting mirror down and calibrating your stroke and making sure that's like but they do it. Whereas some players will just neglect things, and okay, that's why you're missing cuts. And that's why, you know, you Scotties and your Rory's, they do all the the little things well.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:03

What do you guys uh in closing? I wanted to ask both of you teachers something. You know, for for for the player that is listening to this, that's lost, that is going on to YouTube, that's going on to Instagram, and they're searching for something, and they're passionate and they want to play better. How how do they how do they acquire the discernment to figure out what information is going to serve them?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:33

You want me to answer that one?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:34

Or it's for both of you.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:36

Okay, I'll I'm happy to go first. I honestly, like, I know for some people, money is a factor, right? There are certain things that I don't pay for services because oh, I can just find that on TikTok. Like TikTok's become the new YouTube, in my opinion, right? Um I think if you genuinely want to get better at golf, not just a pipe dream of like I'd like I'd like to be, like if you genuinely want to get better, save up, put aside a few thousand dollars. Now, this is no guarantee, but I would do research on a good coach in your area. And if you can't find one that's great, go online and find someone. It depends on your learning style, though. Some people suck at learning online. Um, but I would go to that coach and say, I am a blank canvas, and if we have to start by holding the club a certain way for the first two or three lessons, I am down for that. And then learning how to take the club away. Like, because realistically, good golf will come from good ball striking. And then if we've got good ball striking, we can then start to work on chipping, putting. Like chipping and putting and all that is so important. But I think sometimes, like it's big philosophy in my coaching, but I do think sometimes people just hit at shit. And and it it's a poor grip. And you know, someone said to me the other day, I must be great being a golf coach. I went, Yeah, it's fantastic because someone turns up with a slice and there's 57 different combinations as to why that could be happening, and we've got to decipher what it is. Good luck if you're a banker trying to go to YouTube and go fix my slice, and there's one video from an exceptionally good coach, but it's how do you know it's not ball position? How do you know you're not striking it out of the heel or the toe, or your your grip is a centimeter two underneath on your left hand, so it's really weak. Like, I think it's it's finding a coach, but like some of them out there are bullshit artists as well. They just want to collect your cash and send you on your way. I would find someone and say, hey, I've got this amount of money and I'm here for 10 lessons, but I do want some accountability. Like I'm ready to practice exactly how you want me to practice. If you tell me to just sit in front of the television every night perfecting my grip for an hour, I will do it. And then if you tell me to then migrate or move from the grip to just chipping balls 10 meters to learn centeredness of strike, I'll do it for a week and just look at it as a 12-month project, not a not a 30-minute project. Justin, what would you say? Great answer.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:19

Yeah, I I always tell students, right, the minimum you need to understand about this thing that you're trying to learn, the golf swing is A, know how your tools are designed, how they're meant to work, and B understand basic ball flight laws. And when you truly understand these two things, then it makes it easier for you to begin the path of improvement. So it's the same thing with driving a car. You need to know how the thing works. You need to put the correct patrol in the car, and you need to understand the laws of the road and the laws of uh motor mechanics in the sense of how to engage the uh the gear and the clutch. And if you extrapolate that mindset to golf, it suddenly it becomes a whole lot easier than just thinking the golf swing or the golf ball has something personal against you. One day you hit it well, next day you you hit it like crap. You can't even find the ball. And then I would I would challenge them to go further. Like if you can't produce the ball flight that you want, then understand like what the where the club needs to be to produce that required ball flight or the desired ball flight. And if you can't, then do an assessment of your body. Oh, my body can't move correctly to get the club in X, Y, Z positions. Do I work on the body or do I change the expectation of the ball flight or even the skill level that I want to play at? Like as you say, right? A lot of compromises that you've got to make along the way. Do I have enough time to do what Brent told me to do? Or if What I only got an hour a week. Like, this is probably where I find low-hanging fruits. Get best bang for buck. That's that's my advice to our listeners on this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:15

And and I'll end with this. Those are both fantastic gents, and I'm glad I asked. And as a student myself and not a golf instructor, one of the biggest precursors that I've ever had in order to make my mind, my body, my nervous system ripe for learning is acceptance of where I am, like unconditional acceptance. Like, hey, if I suck, then I need to humble myself, accept where I'm at. And then and only then am I going to be open and honest to new information coming in to be able to start that journey. There's no quick fixes in this game. I don't give a shit what you see on Instagram or YouTube. That's bullshit. There's no quick fixes. It is a process, and it will be a lifelong process, but it's a fruitful process because uh you're gonna learn more about yourself through this game than just about any other media. Oh yeah. You're gonna learn, you know, uh Freud would call it the shadow. Well, you're gonna befriend your shadow in this thing. Especially if you play for a living and you're out there and you got nothing, and you figure out a way to pull it out. Yeah, it's very powerful. Very powerful.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:35

Agree.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:35

Brent, uh, this has been great.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:38

Yeah. I'm so thankful that you would spend your Sunday morning with us. Can you tell our listeners where to find you?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:48

Yeah, so uh Instagram is probably my main platform, so it is at Brent Dale Golf. Um, and then my podcast is your golf performance podcast. Um, been going for a couple of years or four or five years now. Um, similar to what you guys do, I guess. Just you know, trying to find answers off the the best that have done it or the best coaches. And um yeah, look at this is this has been an honor to come on here and um and you know try to share a little bit of what I've learned over the last 20 years of being a golf coach. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:26

Yeah, thanks for coming on, Brent. Thank you, Brian. Really appreciate it.