The Paradox of Choice: Navigating Modern Dating with John Moser

Ever found yourself overwhelmed by the endless options on dating apps? You're not alone. We've brought back author John Moser, known for his deep dive into our minds' connections in his book "Link: The Fascinating Way Our Minds Connect." He's here to share his personal insights on dating apps, drawn from his own dating sabbatical and subsequent plunge back into the world of swiping right.

Moser joins us in a candid conversation on the paradox of choice that dating apps present, akin to finding the perfect apple in a gargantuan grocery store. We share our experiences and strategies to overcome this daunting paradox, emphasizing the importance of setting limitations and giving priority to real-life interactions. We also discuss the addictive nature of dating apps, stressing the significance of stepping back from the screen for genuine connections.

Wrapping up our insightful chat, we highlight the challenges and potential pitfalls of dating apps, stressing the importance of second chances and real, less pressured experiences. With reference to a New York Times study, we explore alternative ways of meeting potential partners and the role of emotional connection in forming fruitful relationships. Whether you're new to the world of dating apps or an experienced user, we believe our discussion offers invaluable insight and advice for navigating this ever-evolving landscape. So, buckle up, and let's explore the fascinating world of dating apps together.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Hey everybody, welcome to this week's show. We have a special guest coming back on that we had on just 13 months ago, In November of 2022, we had the honor of having John Moser on who John is the author of Link, which is the book. It's called Link. It's the fascinating way our minds connect Great book. We'll have a link to the book Pardon my pun here and the show notes, so please get on there and check it out In accuracy.

Speaker 1: 0:31

John and I have remained in contact over the past 12 months or so and we were on the phone a couple of weeks ago and we had this really fascinating conversation about this one particular topic, which is dating apps. Now I'm off the market for dating and I haven't been on a dating app in years and a few years, but I remember when I was, there were a couple of times in my life when I was single and, with my schedule and lack of desire to go to the bar and meet somebody I don't have a lot of other social outlets especially when I moved up to the upper peninsula of Michigan a couple of years ago and I found myself meeting some amazing people all online, and I literally mean online. I had conversations over the phone. I had to exchange text messages with amazing women, Never went on one date. Now, 18 years ago, when I was single and I was raising my son Dawson he was three years old at the time, when I was single. I was on a dating apps back then with matchcom, and I did the same thing. Now. I did go on two dates and met two amazing women, but for some reason, there was just something. They checked all the boxes for me both of them and this is at two different time frames. I wasn't dating two women at the same time but there was something there.

Speaker 1: 2:01

I don't know what it was. I couldn't pursue it any further, despite their desire to, despite me looking at them and saying you're kind of everything I really want in life and you're the kind of person I'd like to get to know better and maybe spend my life with. The connection wasn't there for me. I didn't really realize why until a couple of conversations with John and that started. My head started spinning and I think I found the answer. So we're going to let John come in here and he's going to introduce himself and you can go back to November of 2022 and find John's episode and listen to his original episode, but I think he can answer a lot of questions for anybody out there who is maybe struggling with dating apps, maybe even just kind of struggling with making complicated choices in life. I think this is a universal topic that we're going to specify and focus a little bit more on just dating apps. But anyway, enough of my talking, John. Welcome again for the second time my friend, to the bamboo lab podcast.

Speaker 2: 3:00

Oh, thank you so much. Brilliant. It's really a pleasure to be back and on this show and, as we talked about around Thanksgiving, I've just been so impressed with what you've done with this amazing platform All seven continents now, almost 2000 cities, just incredible Great guests that have been on here and a lot to come. So and this was not a flood, by the way, brian didn't ask me to say this, but he's got some really amazing thought leaders coming up on his show in the next several weeks into the new year. Definitely want to check those out. And so, brian, as you mentioned, you know, the dating app conundrum, as I like to call it, was something I never really even considered when I started using them. So, a little bit about me. As some of the audience might know, it's being watched. I'm sorry. I listened to the program last November.

Speaker 2: 3:48

I made a book in 2012 called link, which is the fascinating ways our minds connect, and it was a behavioral science based book that also had a lot of neuroscience underpinnings as to how do human beings best commit to one another, and there's really four modalities for that, which is what link stands for, because link is a mnemonic, so the L is how well we listen with a tenderness to each other. It's not just a matter of listening, it's listening with more than just your ears, if you know what I mean. Then there's the I, which is involved, your tribe, which means when you're getting to know people, especially in an organizational setting, you should get to know everyone, the people on the margins and those who aren't as often heard, and then the end is made is long verbal signaling. So actually I had to win when it comes with debating us we'll get into that in a little bit and the key is that, as people, we should be trying to share information with others to help them. That's the knowledge flow, like I should share things with you that help you. It's not about me getting an ad, it's about what can I do, what can I share with others that helps them get a head. So that's how the book was predicated.

Speaker 2: 4:59

So fast forward to 2022, actually 2021, I'll say that's when I took my dating sabbatical. So December 2021, I decided I'm kind of done with dating Really not working for me. I'd been single since 2015 when I went through my divorce and you know, like he was dated people off and on over the years, but nothing that are really stuck. So finally, in December 2021, I said I've had a dating saying I'm sitting a couple of years off of this. And I did. I took almost two years off to kind of rethink dating. Like you know, date with intention do it differently. I didn't even have a lunch date during that timeframe. So all gifts of this year 2023, I thought, okay, I'm ready, I really want to get back into dating, I like to meet out farther, and so that was my intention. So I want to make sure that the context that I share today is around that goal, because some people use dating apps just to make friends, just for something more casual.

Speaker 2: 5:58

I was using it for the means of meeting someone that would ultimately become my life Okay. So that's the reason I chose to decide to use them and sort of a cast a wide net approach. So I would use dating apps, but I would also try to meet people organically, right. So it's just another means of meeting solid that you wouldn't be able to meet otherwise. So I used a couple of apps. I used Bumble and I used eHarmony, and they're really very similar.

Speaker 2: 6:26

You do the swiping right as you want to get to know them If you find that person and like them and you swipe left as you don't. That's kind of how a lot of the apps work. And so you're doing all these swiping and I tell you, when I first started doing this, I didn't like it. It felt like I was on Amazon buying sweaters. You know it's like you're looking at these people and you're swiping. It just never felt right. And I'm not saying it's wrong and I'm not showing the baby out with about what I was doing apps. I'm just saying that exercise is swiping Just kind of never sat well with me and I don't know when you use them Was that in existence at the time you use them?

Speaker 1: 7:08

I think it was two years ago when I was using I think I used match and Facebook dating at Facebook date. Whatever the Facebook one is, I use that one and I think I use match. I don't remember if it was swiping or not. I never used bumble or tender or any of those in the past. I'd considered it, but I never really I didn't, I don't I don't recall, I don't recall he just hit a heart, but maybe, maybe it did.

Speaker 1: 7:36

Maybe if you didn't like the person you swipe and if you like that you hit the little heart button or ends up with you.

Speaker 2: 7:41

Yeah, it's similar to that. So what are the things I first thought about once this happened? And was this and, first of all, as a person on a dating app, what are you trying to do? You're trying to do three things. If you want to secure a long term relationship with someone, you're trying to, as a man, signal that you have resources. Number two, that you're kind. And number three, that you have high intelligence. I mean, those are the three things you want to convey, I feel, as a man to a woman again, that you can deliver resources, you're someone who is responsible, you, you know, carry out a job, you manage your finances well. Again, you can signal resources to that woman too, that you're kind, or you're a person who believes in kindness, treats people with equity and you're honest and you, I think, every those kinds of things. And then, third, that you're intelligent, you're someone that wants to learn and grow, that sort of thing. Well, trying to convey all those three pivotal things through a dating app is extremely difficult. The first one is some what easier to do because you can signal your resources by your profile. I went to Johns Hopkins and then my graduate work I in the biotechnology career. The book you can, you can, you know, highlight some of those things that, yeah, some person who can signal resources, but you can't really, in these dating apps, get into a whole lot about how kind you are, because they only give you short little free foreign feeds to share 200 characters or so about yourself, and sometimes they require you to answer certain questions, but you can't really get into a lot. You can't make a video of yourself, you can't explain things about yourself that show that you're kind, and some people would not even believe you're late because they'll say, well, you wouldn't can say anything. And then, as far as your intelligence, yeah, maybe you can signal some of that in the dating app, but it's a very difficult process and one of the things that happens is a couple of headwinds come into play, and there are two, and then we talk about the later headwind and then we'll get into the main one, which is the paradox of choice, and that, as you and I were talking about earlier, affects many of areas of life, not just dating, and I'll talk about the first headwind. That's the more. It's not a lawyer. It actually can be a significant issue for people using dating apps, but it certainly does a significant amount of choice. So here's what it is. It's a Dilpa meme problem.

Speaker 2: 10:11

So let's think about the power of dog experiments. So those are not familiar with that. It's a famous experiment done decades ago where the experimenter would ring a bell and then feed the dogs and over time the dog's brain became so conditioned to the bell ring that every time they heard it it would salivate in anticipation of free Okay. So it was proved that we can condition ourselves and actually have responses in our body just based on conditioning of our brain. So what is the bell and the dating app? It's the notification oh, I sent a message or I liked her profile, she just wrote me and you get that message or you get that like that's bell ring, and then what happens is the dopamine is released in your brain. It's a feel good, and so that can become somewhat of a do loop, because you're out on a date with one person but then you get home and he's got five or six people to take patients from your dating app.

Speaker 2: 11:04

You didn't do these. Dopamine hits near seeing yourself. I was just on the date with Laura. I just got a notification from Angie. You know Angie's got a nice hair style than Laura. She's out there and, oh, cindy, she just wrestled me. Oh, cindy, she was the funny one and Laura wasn't so funny tonight on the day. So this is what happens. And then we get sucked back in and now we're all day or going to date with Laura or Cindy. Then you go to the day with Cindy and then, oh, I get more notifications. You see how this, this is the ability, becomes a sort of like a treadmill that you don't get off of because the brain and highly addictive, especially the dopamine, and a lot of people don't realize this. But not just dating apps, but a lot of apps on our phone are designed to take us, to keep us coming back to the social media platform, because why the notifications are June causes from instant dopamine in our brain.

Speaker 1: 11:58

You know, john, can I say something to that point? That dopamine thing, right now, I mean, it is really the new addiction. It's probably the most widespread oh I'm sure, without a doubt widespread addiction in our country, if not the world right now. I remember, you know I have, I was, I've got less active on social media over the past six months. Um, primarily because, especially Facebook, like, I still post every day something that I write or I like you know something motivating or positive, but I don't post it.

Speaker 1: 12:33

I probably post 30% of what I did a year or two, three years ago and the reason that helped me was getting that damn Facebook app off my phone. I don't have it on my phone anymore. I took it off. I did that because a client I were talking one Friday. He's like, yeah, I got off Facebook to 12 days ago, off my phone, and he said it's been a game changer. So as we were talking, I said I just did it and I thought it would be difficult. Best thing I ever did. I don't miss it at all. Now I get on my computer and do Facebook, my post, every morning, but it's more, it's a lot more, it's more work to do that and but I don't have the dings, I don't have the. You know I don't have that dopamine rush anymore when I get on my phone. There's no notice notices at all. I saw. A hundred percent agree with you on that.

Speaker 2: 13:15

Yeah, statistics Currently. I looked these up before the show. So right now, 50% or greater of singles who are between the ages of 20 and 40 are meeting each other through dating apps. That's huge. What's the price? 50% or later between the ages of 20 and 40, this is their primary way of meeting somebody is through a dating app or using an app to try to meet somebody. And then between the ages of 41 and 60 is the largest glowing population using dating apps. Okay, so I, even at 57, you know I'm making that 40 to 60 range right, and so that's a huge population using these things and running into this headwind. You know, which also interesting is a couple of well, it's not really a mess, it's more of a fallacy. So what am I getting at? And that is the whole meeting online versus offline. So, number one, there's this ramping use of dating apps that I just said. 50% in the age bracket of 40, I'm sorry, 20 to 40. And I don't know what the percentage was in the 40s and 16s. It just stated that that's the largest segment in terms of growth. That's still. That's a lot of people using these things.

Speaker 2: 14:27

But what has been shown by the marriage foundation study is that diverse rates have been falling. So in the US and Canada they're down, down around 38% from a high of in the 50% back in the 90s and then so, but that, yeah, boys are also falling, but also marriage rates are falling. So it's kind of like a you get a look at the data a little bit more closely, right, so marriage rates are falling. However, what they are also showing is that those who meet and divorce meet through dating apps. Those divorce rates are almost two X people who meet organic way. Okay, that's per the marriage foundation study done in 2022. Now here's the part about these kinds of studies where people see this. They get publicized. Look, you know, dating apps don't work. Two X divorce rate compared to meeting organically. The marriage foundation study said so. Except you have to dig into the data a little bit.

Speaker 2: 15:22

And here's where people need to understand that it's not meeting someone online. That's the issue. The reason that divorce rates hire for those who meet online in general is because of social capital. It's not because of the person you meet. In other words, you can meet a great person on matchcom or on e-armony. In fact, I'm going to talk about after I share this. I'm going to talk about the date that I had on e-armony. That was absolutely amazing. It's the social capital.

Speaker 2: 15:51

What is social capital? Well, if you meet someone online that, let's say, a couple hundred miles away, you have new connections with that person. Nothing, friends, not through school, not through your church, not through a social organization. They are out there. There's no social connections.

Speaker 2: 16:06

So social capital would be if you met your girlfriend or boyfriend through a friend, through your church, through your school. You have social networks in those organizations and those social networks help to bolster your budding relationship. Right, think about this If you, your best friend, recommended a woman to you and you start dating her, well, she's got a friendship circle that overlaps yours. If you look at a Venn diagram, there's a rule of law, so that creates a strength to that budding relationship. On social capital If you didn't have that and this person is completely outside of your Venn diagram, not anywhere you've been touching it that puts a lot of stress on a new relationship. So it's not again meaning someone online is bad. It's because of the lack of social capital. So you can actually help to alleviate that problem.

Speaker 2: 16:58

But if you do meet someone online through dating app, try to bring that person into your friendship circle as soon as you can. Maybe you don't want that to meet your children yet I get that but try to incorporate that person in your social circles so that they begin to share some of the same friendships or some of the same things you do, because that will help to bolster that relationship. Because that is real. They look into the marriage foundation study. That social capital piece is huge. So I could give you a better chance of the relationship succeeding if you meet online. But the problem is some people just say, oh, if you meet online, there's a stigma and that person's not going to be as good as someone you meet at home. That is not true. You can meet amazing people. Like you were mentioned at the beginning of the show. You met some amazing women online and so that's something I just wanted to bring up.

Speaker 1: 17:51

John, can I just just for the audience out there, I just want to share with you what I pulled up as the definition of social capital. John explained it's a set of shared values or resources that allows individuals to work together in a group to effectively achieve a common purpose and, honestly, that when you mentioned that to me a week or two on the phone, I had to look that up and I'm like I've heard that term so many times but I don't know if I ever knew the actual definition of it, so I wanted to share that for the people out there.

Speaker 2: 18:19

And so again, there's all these fallacies, and I don't know if you had this happen to you when you were using the online platforms that if you meet online, most like this stigma really. I mean I can tell you from being single there were. There was a person that was recommended to me through a friend and was into photography like I was. So we met organically and we dated for about three months, but she didn't tell me that she was still married. She told me she was divorced and living with her father.

Speaker 2: 18:47

Well, what happened one day was I get a call from her husband because he had seen my number showing up on her phone, because he had oversight of the phone plan, and I slated the guy. She told me she was living with her dad and saying oh no, we split up, but we're not divorced. We just had a fight and she ran off and stayed at her dad's for several months. So my point is is you can be a good person or a complete bozo organically as well, and so I just hid it in the example or you can meet an incredible person online through dating app as well. So I just want to sort of clear that here, because there's so many people that still think well, if we meet online, I mean somehow, it's obviously because studies show the divorce range higher. It's because of social problems, not because of the person.

Speaker 1: 19:33

Yeah, I think, john too, you know this is a good episode for those people who have or are using dating apps but maybe can't figure out why they weren't working for them and how they can make. Maybe they're how they can make it work for them more effectively, but for me I never knew why they're. I mean, meet beautiful, amazingly beautiful people. They seem to like me, I like them, but for some reason I just I couldn't connect to that next level. I really didn't know why until we did.

Speaker 1: 20:01

You brought up the term paradox of choice to me, you know, a few days ago on the phone and like, eh, there, it is right there, and I think that's what it was for me. So, not to interrupt you, but I think this is for anybody out there who's who's kind of struggling with that world of I want to find the right person. Which direction do I go? I don't have a lot of resources. Maybe when you were moved to another city where you don't have a lot of friends, family, and you've been trying dating apps, they haven't been working. Let's explore a little further and see what maybe you can do to make this a more effective process for you. So go ahead, john. I didn't mean to interrupt you.

Speaker 2: 20:33

Hey, I'm gonna. I'm just gonna share that as quick story before I get into the paradox of choice. Someone I met on a dating app. We met in August that went on our date in early September and this, at the time, was an incredible date. This woman and I didn't message that much between each other, her name was Jessica and then she showed up at the date with this great idea of just answering some questions. There's actually called 36 questions to fall in love. It's. They're written by a psychologist. I just looked up the guy's name at the top of my head, but anyway, she and I decided to do 18 of those 36 questions. It was her idea. It was phenomenal, like it was just one of the first dates I ever had with anyone in my lifetime. It was such a great experience. In fact, when I was in the parking lot after we had said goodbye, I called one of my mentors up and I just said I just had the most amazing day ever.

Speaker 2: 21:27

I mean, this woman was so interesting and was whole idea of answering these questions with each other. There were questions like this Is there something in your life you've always wanted to do but never have done it? You know her answer was she always wanted to write a song. Another question was tell me about one of your most difficult life experiences. You know it was like it was really great. I mean, it was just a great way to learn about this person and it was her idea to do this. So my point is that's a little event, so you heard it. That's how I actually met Jessica and was a really amazing interchange. This woman was highly intelligent, she's seen your executive in your company and was just well dressed. She showed up early. I mean, everything was as big as it can get from a Thursday perspective and we met through a dating app. So my point is is that kind of dispels the Smiths? Well, you can't read anywhere, but I'm a dating app? Oh, yes, you can. But here's where the major headwind is. I'm going to get into I know we've talked about quite a bit sort of ability to that is this paradox of choice, because this is the big adolescent where this is the problem, not only in dating, but we'll probably get into some other areas of life where this presents its ugly head and really keeps you from making a decision.

Speaker 2: 22:45

First, the paradigm to choice was summed up in a book by the same title by Barry Schwartz in 2004. So any of us are out there. You can just go on Amazon or eBay and find the book for about three bucks. She's pretty cheap. Now, barry Schwartz the paradox of choice Incredible book because it wasn't written about dating apps. They didn't exist in 2004,. Though there was online dating like Piaotopatchcom was around at that time and some others. We were using smartphones then and swiping right and the last of all that, but still there was dating sites online. But he didn't write the book. I really about that.

Speaker 2: 23:21

It was all about what we are faced with Many choices at the same thing. The value of each individual choice becomes donated in our mind, and I'll give a very simple example to your audience so that they can kind of make sense of us. So imagine you want to make doubled eggs for a party and you go to the grocery store to buy the mustard you need for the double legs and you're staring at 120 different brands of mustard on the shelves. Well, you're going to have to select one brand and so you choose one. You get all of them and then you're going to be like do I pick the right one? There was $119, I didn't choose. It becomes this almost affixating thought process and you actually become almost frozen, you start to doubt your choice, you feel a lack of certainty and this happens all the time and was faced with many choices of the same thing and then, like I said, each individual choice gets diluted.

Speaker 2: 24:21

So the mustard example this is exactly what plays the dating app, because you're going on the dating app and you're swiping right on saying and I'm going to speak as a man who is seeking a woman to connect with you, swipe on 30 women and, let's say, five or six of them like you, or they write you back. Well, now you've got to make choices and that's just like the mustard conundrum. Ok, wait a minute, if that's Susan, nancy, jessica, lynn, angie, you know, see, like all these people have not responded to you. Ok, which one do I connect with? Ok, they are connecting with me and we're sharing messages, that maybe we're sharing song numbers, and then I go on a date with Nancy, but then Jessica's messaging me while I'm on the date with Nancy.

Speaker 2: 25:07

You see, it becomes a paralysis situation, and what Barry Schwartz talks about in the book, which is so panel. He just nails this and he was kind of a prophet ahead of his time because this was way before the e-commerce revolution, where now we've got Amazon on our phones, we click it up and we could buy everything from you know daddy eggs on Amazon to all the ingredients you need for in 30 seconds. So I just got this entire you know commerce at our fingertips to swipe left and right on Amazon by anything we do. Well, here's what he said in this book, which I thought was amazing. He said we would be better off if we embraced voluntary constraints on our choices. We would be better off if we just thought something that was good enough but not perfect. We would be better off if we lowered our expectations about the results of our decisions, and we would also be better off if we had less choices of the same thing. So when you think about dating, this is huge.

Speaker 2: 26:14

So what can we do to help people offset this problem? Because they may not realize it, but every time you're swiping and you're interacting with multiple people, you're being bombarded with the pan-ons of choice. You're having a difficulty to choose one person and get to know them because you don't want this back pocket mindset. Oh, wait a minute, the date doesn't go so well with Susan. I've got Angie, nancy, jessica, oh, why not Ready waiting for me when I get home? That creates a deal loop. So what I suggest people do and this is something that I put into practice is I call it the Whole Foods solution. This is easy to limit and for anything. When you're done listening to this podcast, just remember the Whole Foods solution. It's a simple way of bypassing the paradox of choice when it comes to dating apps. As I am recording this, brian, looking down, I see all foods across the street from my condo building and I love it because I just go down my elevator across the street and I can do my food shopping.

Speaker 1: 27:15

And John, can you tell the audience where you're located? Again, I live in.

Speaker 2: 27:18

Annapolis, maryland, ok, downtown Annapolis, rain City Center. It's about 20 minutes west of Washington DC, I'm sorry, 20 minutes east, 20 minutes east of Washington. You're not going much further west. You're not going to go much further west, but anyway. So the Whole Foods is across the street from my building. So here's the Whole Foods solution.

Speaker 2: 27:37

So it's a Friday night and I go down to Whole Foods and I'm in the produce area bagging up some apples and a woman comes up next to me to also get some apples and we strike up a conversation and say her name is Jessica. I go, I just got out of use because I'm OK, and we just start talking and I feel a vibe. You know, I feel a vibe with her. And we keep talking and then find out we're both single and then we end up, you know, talking some more and finally I just take the risk and say, look, I just say this has been a great conversation. Would you like to continue? In a couple of days? There's the Boston sorry, the Baltimore Tea and Golf is down the street. Would you like to meet there and have a chat? And she says, yeah, that'd be great. And we exchange phone numbers and I go oh, I'm going to be excited, right? Wow, I didn't expect to meet someone and we're down to buy apples. I bet this woman, jessica. She was really nice, we had a vibe, it was a great chat. I can't wait to meet her in two days at the coffee shop.

Speaker 2: 28:30

Am I going to go back to Whole Foods Brian the next morning and stand by the produce area by the apples to meet someone better than Jessica? But it just met the night before and am I going to go back in the evening for the next day? Is she going to do that? No, it sounds ridiculous, but that's what we do on dating apps. It's precisely what we do on dating apps. We meet a nice person, but we're going back on the app. We're swiping, right. We're swiping right and we're even going to date, sit up with someone, but we're still swiping, right, we're still on the app. It's like going back to the whole from just standing in the produce area and expecting to meet someone else the next day. That's lunacy, but that's what the PowerBus a choice does.

Speaker 1: 29:10

So it's that the Whole Foods solution is almost a form of voluntary constraints, really, because you're, by doing it, by next example, you're not giving yourself, whether it's Whole Foods or wherever you are, when you meet somebody, there are constraints around that. You have eliminated, or at least decimated to a great deal, your options because, like you said, you're not going to go back to that place. So by looking for situations where you can meet somebody in a situation like Whole Foods or wherever it might be, you are constraining your own options at that point.

Speaker 2: 29:46

So what I would do is, if I connect with someone on a dating app we've exchanged phone numbers and we've agreed to have a date you turn the app off. You don't delete your account, you delete the app from your phone. There's no way for you to get notifications from other people. You've now sent this date, just like I met Jessica at Whole Foods. We're going to need in two days. I'm not going back to all of these trying to meet somebody else. I'm excited about meeting Jessica. I'm thinking about Jessica in my head, I'm not thinking about other people, and so, if we have this habit, we meet a person that we feel some vibe with, although it's hard to feel a vibe on a dating app. That's the other thing. You don't have the non-vibral communication, and that is one of the headwinds as well. Vib is important. Vib is what makes you feel attracted to someone. I always get this ad nauseam feeling when a person will look at your photo on a dating app after you wipe them and say we're not a match. They haven't held any conversation with you, they haven't sat across from you in an organic setting, but they can just look at the picture or something and say we're not a match. It's the most ad nauseam statement that I've ever heard people use.

Speaker 2: 30:55

In fact, I was told this funny story. I had a woman like my profile. She actually liked it sent me a message. She said, John, I really like your pictures, or something about my profile I'm like, thank you. So I asked her this question. This is my question. I said I forget what her name was, I'll just say it. I said I need to really like your profile as well. What is one of your most proudest accomplishments you've done in your life? And I referenced it to something that she had talked about in her profile. You know what she wrote back. She wrote back I don't think we're a match. And I was thinking to myself OK, I asked the question about your. You know, tell me about one of your proudest moments and you can determine we're not a match by that question. Amazing, I mean psychologists will be out of business, so will a lot of life coaches. I mean wow.

Speaker 2: 31:40

And what that tells me is people have gotten so addicted to these apps they've lost the ability to even think that you cannot make such a clean without an organic connection, without a vibe, and that's one of the headwinds with dating apps as well In the Whole Foods. Example, if I went to the produce area and I started talking to Jessica, yeah, they're on seeing her body language, getting the vibe from her nonverbal cues. Don't get butt on a dating app, which is why you've got to meet. You can get all this in some sort of texting. Gets you nowhere. I always tell people get off the app as soon as you can with that person and meet face to face. I think coffee shops are great because you can have a conversation, but if you do meet someone on the app that you like, it's just best to set that data. Give each other your phone numbers, turn the app off.

Speaker 2: 32:29

And here's the other thing I did. This is another way of kind of bypassing that. Bypassing that paradox choice is a lot of dating apps will send notifications to your email. You know they'll tell you what you got away. You got someone sending you a message, so I have Gmail for all of my regular email. What I did was I set up a Yahoo email account that was only for the dating app, so I could turn that app off as well, because no email went to it except from the dating app. So now I have no access to any notifications or any information from that dating app while I'm trying to get to know this single person. It just as if I had met them at Whole Foods, or I met them in a party, or I met them organically. I cut off the app completely, including email notifications, Because if you don't do this, you become like Barry Schwartz talks about in the book.

Speaker 2: 33:21

You become addicted to this paralysis. You can't make a decision and, especially when it comes to organically connecting to human beings, you just start to see everyone the same. These profiles all start looking the same, salting the same photos look the same. No one stands out because you're swiping so much it really becomes a dull the senses and you lose that sense of is anyone really connecting with me out there? No, because you're not taking steps to connect as you would if you met them organically.

Speaker 1: 33:56

You know what I think your point is so good. After you and I talked, you know, a week or so ago, john, I Googled this topic and I pulled up a New York Times article is some August, I believe, of 2022. It's titled a decade of fruitless searching the toll of dating app burnout and in a research dump in April of 2022, they found that they surveyed 500 people between the ages of 18 and 54. And they found that 80% of these are 18 to 54 year old people who are on dating apps. 80% said they are or have experienced emotional burnout or fatigue due to the online dating process.

Speaker 1: 34:36

And you know, when you think about a lot of people out there might think well, dopamine, well, I got these dopamine rushes. Dopamine is a good thing right, it is but too much dopamine is incredibly dangerous Because when you, when your brain releases dopamine over a certain period of time, or too much, your body, that I think, the chemical released from your brain is then cortisol to cortisol to, to, to counteract dopamine. So when you have too much, I'm going to call it fake dopamine rushes based on likes and loves and swipe all the good things that you think are happening. Same with drinking alcohol or drugs, then over the course of your day, your brain doesn't have enough dopamine to find happiness and the other things that you once found happiness in. So if you're because you become reliant on these clicks and these likes and these you know people you know approaching you on the dating apps, hey it's great. And why? Why? Why shouldn't I do something that makes me feel good? Well, because too much feeling good turns out to be feeling bad for the rest of your day.

Speaker 1: 35:38

You know it's like when you drink too much alcohol. Alcohol feels great when you're drinking it, but then what happens is, over the course of years of drinking too much, you don't find happiness in the things that you once found happiness in the laughter of a child, the leaves falling in the fall, the snow coming down, you know the smell of the turkey on Christmas morning, or whatever. You don't find as much happiness in there because your brain is adjusted to looking for dopamine releases in certain things and not in others. So it can be a very, very slippery slope.

Speaker 2: 36:10

He is a great article. I haven't read that one in full but I will touch on one of the York Times had published a couple of years ago, which they did a longitudinal study of people on dating apps, and one really in particular Ursula, who just caught my attention. She had been on 700 dates over three years. I don't think he was, I don't seven years, I'm sorry I spoke. She was on seven dates in seven or eight years. Seven or eight different people, yes, over the course of almost seven years. So let's say I'll have 100 people per year. And you know they interviewed her and she was just so out of it that I've just not met my manage and I'm thinking you've gone on dates with 700 people.

Speaker 2: 36:53

It's again that paradoxical thing. Here's the piece of why I stress this whole whole food solution. First, dates with dating apps are like blind dates. They really are. Here's why Because, yes, you've seen her photo.

Speaker 2: 37:08

You can say, well, it's not a blind date. I did see their picture. But pictures are two dimensional. They lack all of the nonverbal tears. It's not like meeting in the whole food, like when I told that you know fake story of meeting this person in the whole food.

Speaker 2: 37:22

I've seen her. I mean, I've seen her. I've seen her. I know what her voice sounds like. I've seen some of her body language. I saw her vibe. She actually felt it, watched it, read it. Well, that's not a blind date anymore. We were just getting apples and we just took up a conversation and agreed to meet at a coffee shop for two days.

Speaker 2: 37:39

But when you meet someone on a dating app, you see their photo and you have some texting and then you share your phone. That was in. You agree to meet at a coffee shop, like I did with Jessica back in September, the one I said was an amazing date. Well, that was still a blind date. I mean, yeah, when she came in, I mean I thought she looked better than her photos, but still it didn't exactly look like the person in the photos, right, because photos are two dimensional.

Speaker 2: 38:03

And then the other aspect is you haven't had any of nonverbal communication, which is 60% of what we communicate as humans is nonverbal. That's bona fide behavioral science, 70 years of provenance. So the auditory piece, the visual piece, is 60% of what we communicate. So you've not experienced that on a dating app. So where am I going with this?

Speaker 2: 38:23

If you think about every date from a dating app as a blind date and the first date doesn't go really well, but it doesn't go really bad. It's kind of a lukewarm, like the person wasn't some bozo that traded you. Really, you never want to see them again. It just wasn't the sparks flying but it wasn't bad. It's a lukewarm date. I highly recommend people to give that person another chance because we're all nervous I was when I went on to go on these first dates from dating apps.

Speaker 2: 38:51

I was nervous. I was at like, top of my game. It's awkward. You're trying to stumble through those initial. You know hi, I'm Joe and yeah, I remember you. We've been messaging. You know it's like it is uncomfortable, but if I get together with Jessica, the person I fictionally met at Whole Foods, in two days we already met, we already talked, we had the vibe, you know it's not the blind date. Come on, you see. So I think people sometimes you line off people very quickly because why, well, they're on the first date. It's not going in like, it's not like the show, the bachelor, it's not perfect, it's not just sparks flying and all this and they're saying to themselves but I got full thought of other people who just messaged me I've got more dates flying deaf in the app. This one isn't going super great. Okay, bye, see you, we're not a match and they write off it could be an amazing relationship down the road because they didn't give it a chance. So I think that's the other side.

Speaker 1: 40:07

I think that's a great point. You know, and I think what happens with the dating apps is you were talking, I think, with your approach of the whole food solution is that it stops us or at least to some degree dissipates the second, that the word I was trying to say, second guessing. You know we don't really like this, john. You know you and I are both avid readers and when I go to a massive bookstore, whether it's Barnes, noble or the old the Powell's bookstore, portland, oregon, which was the largest bookstore in the world at one point, you go in there and you know I can even go to the genre I'm looking for, whether it's, you know, business or philosophy, or, or you know sometimes, horror or historical fiction, whatever I'm. Still I don't care what genre and section of the bookstore. I mean, there are thousands of options and it takes me forever to pick a book. And then when I do find, when I walk out, I'm second guessing the whole time. And then I, even as I'm reading it, I'm wondering oh, that other book that I had in my hand before I walked out, that I was looking at and I put down. I wonder if that would be better because, like in dating, reading a book, the beginning is awkward. You're getting to know the characters, the plot. You know you're not into it yet, so you're second guessing. But when I go to like you know, as you I talk when I'm in an airport I run into an airport bookstore and you know you, you don't have the selection, you don't have the options, you don't have the paradox of choice. There are 122 mustards on the shelf, there are a handful, and you pick a book and you walk out happy and I almost inevitably love reading that book, whatever it is, whatever genre, because I don't have, I'm not second guessing.

Speaker 1: 41:47

And I didn't realize that until you and I spoke. You know in the past week or two that that was my problem when I was in the dating world. Like I didn't think about it, like I wasn't comparing the person I was dating, or I think I only went on two ever dates in my life, maybe three total, and that was like 18 years ago, and two of them became we dated for, you know, three, four months, um, but I don't think I was conscious thinking, well, this person isn't as this, or comparing them to someone else. But my subconscious mind I knew I had other options. Back there.

Speaker 1: 42:20

I could go back and click and swipe and do my likes and whatever and strike up other conversations or go to my phone and start texting again. Women that I was, you know, had previous tech previously texted with. I could do that and I think there's a danger to that. There is a big danger to that, um, so I think I like the whole foods thing. So you're saying don't get off dating sites. If that's your, if that's what you're choosing, it's more, use them effectively and use them in a healthy manner. If you go on a date and a connection, close the the um, close the app, get it off, close up the app. Is that what you said?

Speaker 2: 42:54

I don't you just turn it off, turn off the app. You want to focus on that one person. You don't know what the argument against this is, but you don't know if that's going to turn into a relationship. Well, you don't know if you meet them organically at a party or at whole foods either. You have to get to know them, and you get to know them without all that clutter in your head. Like your point about the book is perfect. Every time I'm in an airport and I go into an airport bookstore I find a book I like because they only have like the top books. There's only a few in the little turnstile or a carousel thing and you know you can get a book really quick. For as long, walking Barnes and Noble was like overwhelming. I rarely walked out with a book and so that's a great analogy. I love the book store, you know. First is the bookstore like the Barnes and Noble versus the airport chaos. The other thing we have to think about is the knock on effect. This is the last thing I'll talk about.

Speaker 2: 43:45

With respect to dating apps, you know technology consolidates everything. It creates a winner takes all approach. What do I mean by that? Ninety percent of search is one company, google. Okay, 80% of social met up Okay. Dating apps have gotten to be the same way because of the way the technology is, in, the way that they're set up. You got 46 men buying for the same for women on Tinder Okay, it's a competitive thing, it's the worst. The other way, two you got 50 women buying for the top 1% of men on batch or on the harmony or on bumble. It's the same thing.

Speaker 2: 44:19

That creates a highly competitive landscape that puts a huge number of people at disadvantage who don't have the ability to signal the resources. What do they mean by that? Well, I don't live in a posh Manhattan and house Okay, cause that's their signal of resource. Look where I live. I live in Manhattan and up in this beautiful sky, rise right Sky, or even Beverly Hills. Or I live in downtown Boston. So they're signaling I got lots of resources. Look at my picture of my Rolex watches and my beautiful cars and all this sort of thing.

Speaker 2: 44:50

And then the kindness and intelligence piece. They can't really convey that as much, but it doesn't matter, because they're signaling all the resources that go, rushing all the attention of the few percent of men and women. And then what happens to the bulk of people. They're kind of pushed way that down and they have no chance at all. So the dating app is also created. This, this whole idea of the not on a sex, which is basically the person that can save the most resources, wins. And in this land, if you're kind, a pathetic and great person, you can't do that. So you're pushed way down the totem pole and it creates an imbalance, huge imbalance.

Speaker 2: 45:27

So again I come back to this if you're using a data map and you wanna meet a quality person they all are great people out there there are amazing people on data maps. I mentioned this person I met back in September. The state was off the charts, amazing and they work. They really do work. However, if you just think about that old food solution, if you're on there and you connect with somebody and you've exchanged phone numbers, you've agreed to meet, I highly recommend remove the app from your phone.

Speaker 2: 45:57

Have no nothing to do with that app until you see where that interaction goes with that person that you meet, because, let's say, it gets to the first date, it goes well, and then the second and the third. All of a sudden you can find yourself in a great relationship and you never went back on the app again, you didn't have that distraction, you didn't have the paradox of choice kicking you in the butt, you didn't have the dopamine hits going on in your brain that keeps you aphyxiated into this thing, and you get out of that addictive deal loop. You could actually find that there's a lot of great people that you're compatible with. I mean that woman that went on same date over seven years. I mean you have a sure, as she turned the app off, there had to be one of those seven underband that was compatible with her. That could have resulted in a great long-term relationship. It's all about using the app effectively and realizing that these are addictive.

Speaker 2: 46:47

Apps are designed this way because, let's face it, most of these dating apps almost all of them, are for-profit companies. Okay, match, boomboo, e-armony, tinder, hinge. They make money from what you swiping, right? Okay, that's how they make money. They want you on the app. They want you buying those things that get you a profile and a more prestigious part of the app. You know how it all works. You can buy likes, you can buy this, and that these are for-profit companies. Okay, yeah, do they want you to meet someone? They say they do, but they want you to spend money. Let's just be call the kettle black here, okay. So think about that as well when you're using these apps. They're for-profit companies. They want you on there.

Speaker 2: 47:31

Use these ways that Proline and I have talked about, because they will work. It's a proven behavioral issue that this paradox of choice plays us, not just in dating but, like Brian said, even buying a book. The more choices we have, the less of the ability we have to pick the one that's right for us. So this has been our great conversation. Brian, I still appreciate you having me on the show and hopefully this helps somebody out there. Just remember the Whole Foods solution treats someone you meet on a dating app like you met at Whole Foods. Turn the thing off, hit the note that one person don't have anyone else going on messaging you and you might find you start off 2024 in a really awesome new relationship.

Speaker 1: 48:14

This has been, I think, an incredibly necessary conversation and material that you brought up, john, and I think it goes beyond dating for anybody out there. I think I'm thinking of, just even as we were talking, thinking about me flipping through Amazon Prime, apple Hulu or Netflix at night or HBO Max looking for a movie to watch. I seldom settle on a movie or a documentary because I'm thinking, oh, there's another one. I kind of really want to watch that one too. It's like, once you choose, turn the other out. It's almost the old adage of burn the bridge behind you. You know that when you go across the canyon, burn the bridge behind you, at least short term, so you only can go forward for a while. Don't keep going back and forth over that same damn bridge.

Speaker 1: 48:58

And I think another thing too when it comes to dating is we are always told don't go shopping when you're extremely hungry. You know, literally because you buy a lot of shit you don't need. You know you put stuff in your cart that will sit in your. Most of it's junk food. And I think and I'm not saying that people who use dating apps are desperate or hungry. I don't mean that we're all. If you're dating, you are hungry to find love, you're hungry to find romance or whatever you're seeking. But you know, when you are on a dating app, you are much more proactively doing it. Then, if you just put yourself out there in the world and you meet somebody as you said, the Whole Foods and I don't know how you can start up a conversation with somebody over apples at Whole Foods John, you got to write a book just on that. It's mad.

Speaker 2: 49:45

I thought of something else. I just want to mention this before we close this out. It just came to mind and this is something I don't know if many people have even heard this term, but we've a lot of. Those are pretty term savior sexual, which means you're drawn to someone not just by their physical appearance but also their intelligence. Right Again, going back to those three things that people like to convey on dating apps, which is signaling their value delivery resources, that they're intelligent and that they're tone-in.

Speaker 2: 50:12

But there's another piece that's really important. I'm sure you've been in romantic relationships, you're going to know this. So, as I mentioned, it's probably the bedrock of any relationship and that is the demisexual aspect. The demisexual is the emotional connection, so that's the part that is so important. For any romantic relationship to survive, it has to have a strong demisexual base. With that being business, we've connected emotionally and we've established common ground in a lot of things values, virtues, ambitions, who we are, things that matter to us. When we can share those with someone else and we find congruency. That demisexual bond is what makes things really take off.

Speaker 2: 50:58

It's not the photos, it's not the way you wrote your profile and you just scribed all these things and 200 words are less low. It's demisexual connections take time to develop. They don't happen overnight. They don't happen after one date or even two or five dates. This is like a slow cooker. It's like a crackpot. It's something that takes all day to cook, not just in a microwave in 35 seconds.

Speaker 2: 51:25

People forget this and a lot of dating apps it's all focused on how nice to make your photo and how glamorous to make your 200 words. If they give you their writing, your little profile box, that's not going to tell you a whole lot about the demisexual aspects that another person could bring into your life. So if you don't take the time to turn the app off and get to know them organically over several meetups if the first one is okay but not really great, you might find that, wow, I have found a real treasure here, someone that shares my common values and virtues. You're not gonna figure that out from reading their like I said 200 word profile and looking at some photos. That's not going to happen. Demisexual is really, really important and many people forget this. They just focus on how the person made them feel because their otas were so glamorous. Whatever you know, that's not going to carry a relationship very far.

Speaker 1: 52:19

That's a great point and you call it what it is. I think most swipe, whatever likes you get on Facebook or I mean I'm sorry on a lot of these apps, most of them are due to your picture. They, most of them, probably don't even read your profile. They might glance at it real quickly and so it's not even shallow. It's extremely shallow for a lot of these likes, and I think that may be more true for men than women, because men are more visual. Women are more, probably have a more likelihood to read the profile, but they're not going to read the profile unless the picture intrigues them first. And what a shallow way to look at something. It's to look at how you're going to determine the future person you spend your life with, but just based on a two-dimensional picture which may or may not be indicative of what they really do look like anyway, and it certainly is indicative of their emotional state and their morals and values and character and how fun they are and how they make you laugh or feel. So great point, john. I want to wrap it up by finishing. Just what I was saying is one of the things I think when you're dating either way is don't shop when you're extremely hungry, meaning what I mean by that is, if you're in the scene of dating, the best thing you can do for yourself, the best way you can find your true love and your true connection, is come to the table already, have eaten, fulfilled in your own life. What I mean by that is make sure that you're taking care of yourself, that you are doing the proper exercise, the proper things that take care of you nutrition, whatever it is, prayer, meditation, reading, therapy, whatever it might be, journaling. Make sure when you come to that table you come as the best version of yourself, so in that way you'll be able to find a person who truly deserves you, not a person you feel like, oh, I kind of have to. I really probably should date this person because I don't know if I'm good enough. Make sure you know when you come to the table you are good enough and you are the best you can be, that you feel good about yourself, because that so often I think when we date, we are looking for somebody to fill a gap in our lives. Fill your own gaps and make sure when you find that person, that person has filled his or her own gaps, or at least you're both doing that at the same time, because I think when you're in there and you're confident of who you are and you feel like my gosh, I really really do like myself. In fact, I kind of love myself when I look at myself in the mirror in the morning, I love who I am or who I'm becoming. That's when you come to the dating world with a great deal more to offer to that person but, more importantly, to yourself, and you're less likely to settle. So I think there's a lot of elements to this and I think this has been a great show. I'm glad I had John and John.

Speaker 1: 55:07

What's your next step? You wrote the book Link About Connections and Relationships. Now you're going into this study of dating apps. Any thoughts on books on that? Hey?

Speaker 2: 55:18

thank you, brian. I'm actually going to re-release, like you went out of print in 2019. So that's my goal for 2024 is to re-release it and update it, because the book is 11 years old and it needs a little refresh, and I'm also considering issuing sort of a mini book on this topic, on how to re-engineer the dating app, like a 100 page book, something easy to read, and so, if all goes well, that should come to play in 2024. And again, just want to help people. Here's these things Don't throw the baby out with about what are. They do work. You can be wonderful people I certainly have and hopefully use them in a way that will foster greater and more meaningful romantic connections.

Speaker 1: 56:01

Will you please let us know when you re-release Link and if you release the smaller book on dating apps, because I like to make sure we can get this connection. I know Link is still on Amazon. It's a 4.6 star rating, which is incredibly high, but because it's not, it's out of print right now that it is higher. The price is probably higher than most people are willing to pay, but when it gets re-released it'll go back down to its original price. So can you please let us know and I'll throw the will. I'll make sure that we get that out to the bamboo pack audience.

Speaker 2: 56:30

We'll see you there, well, thank you, brian.

Speaker 1: 56:31

Hey brother, I appreciate you so much. Thanks for coming back on. I'm glad we were able to do this. I think this will help a lot of people out there who are just struggling with the dating app scene or just dating in general, or maybe even just the paradox of choice as a whole. I would recommend Schwartz's book on the paradox of choice. I read it several years ago. I found a great deal of choice in it, or a great deal of value in it, and, if I can, I'll include a link to that book on the bottom of the notes, as well as the link to the New York Times article I cited here.

Speaker 1: 56:56

John, love your brother. I hope you and your family have an incredible holiday season. It will be in touch over the next couple of weeks, but thank you again for being such an amazing guest on the bamboo lab podcast. Love you too, brian. Thank you, sir, you're welcome. All right everyone. Hey, everybody out there. Happy holidays to you all. As you probably noticed, we haven't been putting out episodes every week. We've been a lot more selective lately. We've been really I've been really gearing up for 2024. We have some big things coming in 24 that we're not quite ready to announce regarding the podcast, but 24 will be in. If you think 22 and 23 were good, 24 is gonna be a next level for the bamboo lab podcast, as we're working on a few slight turns as well as a few major advances. So anyway, thanks everybody. Please, everybody, get out there, strive to give and be your best, show love and respect to the people around you and please, by all means, live intentionally and enjoy the journey. I love you all.