"If you're not growing, you're dying!" Chuck Wachendorfer's Recipe for a Meaningful Life

This episode explores the journey to rediscovering personal growth and defining success beyond traditional measures. Chuck Wachendorfer shares insights on aligning values, embracing discomfort, and maintaining balance for a fulfilling life.

• Embracing personal growth and discomfort
• Redefining success beyond financial measures
• The importance of identity outside of work
• Setting guiding mantras for life
• Cultivating gratitude for increased happiness
• Challenging societal norms about age and growth
• Encouraging reflection and personal values for fulfillment



https://decisionreflex.com/

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gVhPXZvryw0#bottom-sheet

Transcript

Growth, Success, and Personal Fulfillment

Speaker 1 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Bamboo Lab Podcast with your host, peak Performance Coach, brian Bosley. Are you stuck on the hamster wheel of life, spinning and spinning but not really moving forward? Are you ready to jump off and soar? Are you finally ready to sculpt your life? If so, you've landed in the right place. This podcast is created and broadcast just for you, all of you strivers, thrivers and survivors out there. If you'd like to learn more about Brian and the Bamboo Lab, feel free to reach out to explore your true peak level at wwwbamboolab3.com.

Speaker 2 0:43

Well, hello everyone, welcome back to the Bamboo Lab podcast. I'm your host, brian Bosley. Before we get started, everyone I want to share with you I know I've had a lot of people reaching out via email and I've had a lot of people through social media and those who know me reaching out via text and email wondering where the podcast has been the past two months. I did post on some of my social media posts last week the reason why I want to share with you all, why, first of all, I want to apologize. I think I've let a lot of people down. Three months ago we were given the notice that we are now in the top 10% of all global podcasts around the world for downloads and that went right straight to my head downloads and that went right straight to my head and I, for probably five to six weeks, I focused so much more on looking at the numbers every day five, six times a day, looking at how many more countries we added, cities we added and the number is growing that I actually stopped preparing well for podcasts. I stopped being overly concerned about the content and the person, the people I brought on Not that I brought anybody bad on, but I just really kind of lost my mojo. I lost the purpose of why I did it and, honestly, the word I would describe is I felt gross. I felt really gross inside for a couple of weeks and I realized that was why I was in it for the wrong reasons for a while, and I realized that was why I was in it for the wrong reasons for a while and I let the success of the show get beyond really why I started it, which was just to spread wisdom to people and give people hope around the world. So we are back now and in 2025, I've committed to doing 50 shows. Whatever happens, we're going to do 50. And we start off today with a podcast, with the first one ever with a dear friend of mine. And the cool thing about this kind of welcome back podcast episode is this is the first one I've ever done in my home, in the home I grew up in. I'm actually visiting my mother and I brought my micro studio and I have it set up on the kitchen table where I dinner here for dozens of years or, you know, decades, and so it's kind of an honor to do this, and it's a really an honor to do it with a dear friend of mine. I've known for my goodness 20 some years, so you might all remember.

Speaker 2 2:57

Back on January 23rd, 2022 or 23, I'm sorry we did an episode with Chuck Wackendorfer and it was called Challenge your Assumptions. It was episode number 68. I would ask anybody who hasn't listened to it go back. It's gold. That episode, I think right away, was on four continents. It just spread. His message was so well-received. We got a lot of heart letters in the mail and through email saying we want to hear more from Chuck and, like I normally do in my procrastination, I wait two years to bring him back on. So we've got Chuck Wackendorfer on here.

Speaker 2 3:30

Chuck, he's been in senior leadership most of his or all of his adult life, or the vast majority of his adult life. He started off with American Express or IDS American Express, now Ameriprise Financial, I believe he was there for 17 years. Then he went to the Harvard University Advanced Management Program, rocked it there. He spent more than 25 years. He has been supporting executives and business owners. What I like about Chuck's approach is he doesn't just help his clients and other people achieve peak performance. He does so with the mentality of also making sure they don't sacrifice balance in their lives. He is also the co-author of an amazing book called Don't Wait for Someone Else to Fix it, which he co-authored with Doug Linick. An amazing book. I have two pages of notes I took from it. Right here he's done an amazing TEDx talk which we'll include in the show notes a link to that. But without further ado, let me just introduce my dear friend Chuck. Welcome back to the Bamboo Lab podcast.

Speaker 3 4:27

Hey Brian, Thanks for having me. Pleasure to be here.

Speaker 2 4:29

What's going on in your life? I mean, a lot has changed since we last talked, so give us an update.

Speaker 3 4:35

Yeah, I'm 64 years old and I started my own company about nine months ago, so that's probably the biggest change. You know, I have just a personal I don't know. Philosophy is probably the best word that if you're not growing, you're dying. And I don't mean growing like in some singular, narrow aspect, I mean growing in all areas of your life and it doesn't mean you have to be growing in every area of your life. But I do like to grow in my relationships. I do like to grow in what I'm learning. I like to grow and try to challenge myself physically. Try to challenge myself physically. You know most people, when given the choice between being uncomfortable and being comfortable, most of us will choose comfort. But if you change the question, you say, would you like to stay the same or would you like to grow? Most people would choose growth. But to grow I have to be willing to get uncomfortable, and so this is actually like the fourth chapter in my at least my career, my working career.

Speaker 3 5:54

I started as an engineer at a college. I realized that was not challenging me, even though I was making a great living. I became a financial advisor at American Express. That challenged me and I learned a lot and I made a great living. I became a financial advisor at American Express. That challenged me and I learned a lot and I made a great living. I joined Think2Perform for 20 years, learned a lot, helped Think2Perform grow. But I realized I needed a new chapter in my own personal growth and so I launched Decision Reflex Consulting. April 1st it actually happened to be April Fool's Day- Was that on purpose we?

Speaker 3 6:29

are doing great work all over North America. I had my second TED Talk in Houston about six weeks ago. That will be released, I think, next week. So I'll have two TED Talks out, and I'm just. You know, I think success.

Speaker 3 6:46

I was having this conversation with somebody the other day and everybody wants to be successful. You know air quotes and a lot of times, at least in the United States or in American culture, we define success as money, and some of the most unhappy people I know are the wealthiest, and so I think the whole definition of success has to change. And my definition of success is am I enjoying my life today? And if I am, I'm successful.

Speaker 3 7:17

And each of us has a different definition of what enjoying your life might mean. For me, it's like am I enjoying what I'm doing? Like, am I enjoying what I'm doing and am I enjoying what I'm doing it with? I want to be able to wake up every day and look at my calendar and go. I had a great day, and I think too often we settle for less than that, and so it's. It's an awareness thing that I have, and it happened at previous stages in my career, where I woke up and go. I looked at what I had to do for the day, and I don't mean just you have one bad day, I'm talking like day after day after day after day after day You're going I don't really enjoy what I'm doing today, and if that becomes a pattern it's worth paying attention to and say you know, what do I need to change here? And so I am enjoying my life. I enjoy who I work with, I enjoy what I do, I enjoy my relationships outside of work and I feel very grateful.

Speaker 2 8:18

And Chuck, was there a time in your life where you didn't feel that way not just not to point anybody out, or any place you've ever worked, or anything where, um, you could say like I know? I'll give you an example three months ago it was probably right around the time when I'm talking about the podcast, so maybe there's a correlation or causation there I woke up for like two weeks in a row and I felt do I really want to keep doing this? I mean, do I really? I knew, I felt I needed to make some massive changes in my life and I was reflecting back on each day. I'd sit down in my chair when I'm done with work and I would say am I happy with how I feel right now based on what transpired the last 24 hours? And it was like two weeks of no, no, no. And it came to me. It really did. For me, it was again. It was probably now that I think of it was.

Speaker 2 9:17

It was during the podcast time when I started thinking about I don't know that I've I think I've gotten off track of living my purpose and I think that took I think that was taking place for maybe several months of my life and it just came to a head in two weeks and I had to sit down and go back to say, well, what is my purpose in life? And so and I can't look at it there wasn't a certain person. There wasn't. Maybe the event of the podcast, the way I was thinking was, was part of that, but for you was there a moment that you had an aha moment. You don't have to give us the moment. And then, when that happened, if so, what did you do to say I need to make the change? And what did you come to realize during that time?

Speaker 3 9:58

Yeah, those are all great questions. I think you know I just kind of detail at least my work life. I think you know I just kind of detail at least my work life. I think it is the awareness you're talking about, brian, where you realize like I've been not liking what I'm doing for a while. Like when I left American Express I had probably been thinking about leaving for five years.

Speaker 3 10:25

I mean think about that, and those are the five years I knew you there. Yeah, you know, and you try and make changes to make things better. So you know, when you and I met I thought, well, I just need a bigger challenge. So I'll go to Detroit, and Detroit was my last stint at American Express, because there were great challenges that existed there. I figured that would test my leadership ability, I would learn new things, but it would also create choice for me, because I didn't know what. I didn't know that I wanted to lead for sure. I was just thinking about it, but I was like it would get me to a point where I'd have the confidence and the financial independence to make a choice. If I wanted to make that choice.

Speaker 3 11:06

I believe that you want to put yourself in a position to choose what you want to do with your life. So if there's a bottleneck in my life, like I don't have enough money, I should fix that so that I can have choice in my life. If I want choice in my job and I don't have that, what do I have to do to create that choice in my career? Maybe it's I have to improve my performance. Maybe I have to go work for another company the only person's behavior we control is our own, and if I'm not happy with my life, the only person I have to blame is myself. And so I think it's noticing when we're happy and when we're unhappy. And if you believe that when you're happy you do better, paying attention to when you're happy or not is a really important thing. And then, as you're saying, what can I do to change that?

Speaker 3 11:55

Sometimes it's like if a relationship isn't working, I need to be a better partner. Sometimes I have to do something different. I need to be a better partner. Sometimes I have to do something different. But if I've done everything I know how to do to be different and it's still not any better, maybe I just need to change the situation. And that, I think, is the conclusion I came to at each stage of my working career I've done as much as I can do to change and I'm still unhappy. So it's like the definition of sanity I can't keep doing the same thing. I got to take the risk and have the courage to try something new, be willing back to what I was saying earlier, to be willing to be uncomfortable and try something new in order to affect my circumstances. And I'll say you know Decision Reflex is only nine months old, but I am infinitely happier because of the change and I'm learning new things.

Speaker 2 12:54

Well plus, you're back to your lone wolf roots.

Speaker 3 12:59

You were saying that you know we're talking about that before we started the podcast.

Speaker 2 13:03

I mean I, you know, I and I before we started the podcast.

Speaker 2 13:04

I mean I, you know, and I was telling everyone, chuck or chuck.

Speaker 2 13:08

I was telling chuck everyone before we started he was sharing with us his, you know, the last couple of years and we've kept in touch, primarily through texting, um and I, when I worked with chuck my goodness, I was in my mid 30s or early 30s how we were, you know, in our 30s or 40s and you, even though he worked for a major company at the time, a fortune 500 company he had a lone wolf mentality and it was this lone wolf mindset, independent thinking mindset, that it was always to me. It was a little strange, like what doesn't fit here. And then, 20, what? 28 years later, 25 years later now, it's been since, uh, we worked together there because I was, you were, I think, I, you were one of my clients, I think then or your team was or your branch. And 25 years later it came to my head I realized now you are a lone wolf, I mean you have your team that you're developing, but you're in full control now and that's what we learned.

Purpose and Growth at Any Age

Speaker 3 14:05

Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 3 14:07

I don't like working alone, yeah, but I do like having a sense of control over my life. And I think you know, when we were younger, one of the things I noticed as a young man there were a lot of people who were older than me that were unhappy with their lives, primarily because they didn't want to take the chance. And I never wanted to be one of those people like. I never wanted to be able to look back and go see, I wish you would have done that. And I'm not saying like every choice I've made is perfect Clearly not. I'm human. I've made plenty of mistakes. I'm just saying, you know, I didn't want my fear of the unknown to be the reason I didn't test myself.

Speaker 3 15:08

Well, I don't think you can say that when, at 64, you start your company, right? Yeah, I also took two years off. In my 40s. I left American Express and I didn't know what I wanted to do. I just knew I needed some time to figure it out. And we traveled when my kids were younger and we had a condo in Vail so we skied when it was snowing. But that changed how I thought about the rest of my life. Doing nothing is overrated. The conclusion I came to.

Speaker 3 15:33

And so, even though I'm 64, people are like well, are you going to retire next year? No, flipping way, I mean. The second question people ask you after what's your name, is what do you do? Right, and I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying people don't have anything to talk to you about. If you say you're retired I realize that it's 41 years old I'd say I'm retired or I'm taking a sabbatical. They'd have nothing to say to me. Sabbatical, they'd have nothing to say to me.

Speaker 3 16:10

And so when you think about testing yourself and growing, just because you're 64 years old doesn't mean that stops. Just because you have a lot of money in the bank doesn't mean that that has to stop. Everybody thinks retirement is about a number. It's like what are you going to do with your time? And after about 24 to 30 months you run through your bucket list. You know, when I was 40, in my 40s, I skied 65 days, I ran a marathon, I traveled all over the world. I mean, but then what? You're not helping anybody. I mean part of what I. Again, my personal philosophy is, when I help other people, that's not just helping them, it's helping me, and so I think you know part of like the zest and energy of life is making a difference in other people's lives, and I don't see that stopping because of my age.

Speaker 2 17:02

Well, the beauty of your industry and my industry, the industry you and I have chosen to go into, which is coaching and consulting. We just get better as we age.

Speaker 3 17:12

Well, I mean, we're not when you say that I was saying to somebody the other day consulting and coaching is one of the few professions where gray hair works to your advantage. You're not hiring a 25 year old executive coach, right? So so, yeah, we have a longer runway given what we're doing.

Speaker 2 17:34

I agree. And one of my best friends asked me I don't know he's asked me two or three times when are you going to retire? And I said I haven't even hit my peak yet. I said I don't think I'm going to hit my peak in what I do till I'm 70. I look back at like Marshall Goldsmith, marshall Goldsmith.

Speaker 3 17:55

Yeah, I read his material and I'm like that guy's up in his 70s and his material just gets better. He might be in his 80s.

Speaker 2 17:57

Yeah, he might be in his 80s now. Gay Hendricks is close to 80. I love his material. He gets better 80. I love his material. He gets better. I mean, we don't, we're not hauling bricks. You know, we're not running a football, we're not. We don't need our bodies to be, you know, we don't. Our bodies are going to age. Um whatever, we're going to age and we're going to get slower and slower as we move, but our minds aren't going to get any slower.

Speaker 3 18:16

Yeah, Our minds don't have to they don't have to.

Speaker 3 18:19

Right, and I think that's what you see with people who quote unquote retire. It's like, well, how many days, how many years are you going to play golf every day, like? Or go fishing or go skiing? I mean, I'm not saying it's not fun, I love skiing, I love camping, but I I also enjoy helping people, right? I worked with a woman a few years ago who helped people prepare for for quote unquote retirement, whatever that means, right, and she talked about three things. She talked about purpose, she talked about connection and she talked about structure that in order for you to figure out the next phase of your life whether you call that retirement or whatever that might be you've got to figure out, like, what's my purpose, what am I doing here? What's my structure I can't stay in my jammies all day and what's my connection? Who am I? Who do I want to spend time with? And so if you have purpose, structure and connection in your life that you enjoy again back to my definition of success are you enjoying your life?

Speaker 3 19:22

It doesn't matter whether you're working or you're playing golf, but I think golf gives you pleasure, not necessarily enjoyment. I think there's a difference between enjoyment and pleasure. Pleasure is when I'm sitting on a couch watching a movie. Pleasure is when I'm sitting by the pool. Enjoyment is when I'm tested, when I feel like what I'm doing I'm making a difference, when I'm a little bit nervous but also excited. And I think people confuse pleasure with enjoyment. And you can play golf, you can sit by the pool, but like after I mean, how many days of that or months of that? I mean, are you going to say, well, what else am I going to spend my time doing? That has significance.

Speaker 2 20:14

I love that pleasure versus enjoyment. One of the things I always say to myself is and I think this and I share with my clients is the things you like to do short term are probably not the things you're going to like to do long term. You might like to golf, you might like to hunt, you might like to drink beer with your buddies, you might like to, but think of doing that for the next 20 years. That's all you do. It's just the way it is. I mean I love my weekends where I'm not working with clients and I'm not coaching or I'm not doing it. I like those.

Speaker 2 20:40

I'm not doing a podcast, but I don't want to. I don't want to have my weekends last forever. There's no way. You know, I don't. I don't see retirement as an option. Like I just don't see it. I emotionally, intellectually, I don't think I could handle it unless I just volunteered constantly and maybe that would be a purpose. But I mean you and I love what we do. You can see it in the way you when I watch your TED Talks or I read your book, or when we talk, or you know, I see your things on LinkedIn. I mean it's just when you have that passion that's been ingrained and maybe imprinted in us for the last couple of decades or more. I mean we went through the hard stuff the last couple of decades or more. I mean we went through the hard stuff. Might as well enjoy the good stuff now.

Speaker 3 21:20

Well, look, you and I were talking before the podcast started. God willing, we're going to live a lot longer, Amen. And so you know. The whole notion of retiring at 65 is an outdated notion. The age of 65, retirement came from Germany in 1878. There were labor strikes going on in Germany, and so to appease the labor unions, Germany put in place the first pension plan and chose the retirement age 65. Do you know what life expectancy was in 1878?

Speaker 2 21:52

64?

Personal Mantras for Growth and Fulfillment

Speaker 3 21:52

46. 47. When Social Security used the age 65 in the 30s, life expectancy was 61. Children in North America under the age of 10 have a life expectancy of 120. And so when my grandfather, who was born in 1905, when he retired in in 1973, that's 65. He lived five more years. He was dead at 70. And my dad we were talking about before the podcast started it's going to be 91 next week. My dad retired at 65, like my grandfather. My dad told me a few years ago he never thought he'd live to be older than his dad. Wow, he's 91. He's been retired for 26 years. You go, what am I going to do with that time? If you and I do a good job of taking care of ourselves and don't get hit by a bus, maybe we live to 100. You go. Am I going to play golf for 35 years? I?

Speaker 2 23:01

probably not. There's nothing I want to do, for I don't. There's nothing I get pleasure from that I want to do for 35 years, nothing yeah, am I gonna stop?

Speaker 3 23:12

am I gonna stop learning and growing and contributing? I don't think so, chuck do you.

Speaker 2 23:18

Here's one of the things I wanted to ask you and I, while I had you on the show and contributing. I don't think so, Chuck. Here's one of the things I wanted to ask you while I had you on the show. There's something I've been doing. This is my second year doing it and it's something I have.

Speaker 2 23:27

I started with some of my clients last year and a lot of them this year. They're all doing hey, what do you want to accomplish in 2025? Which I think it's good to have goals. Obviously, New Year's resolutions, I think, are kind of a farce, because only about 10% of Americans actually achieve their New Year's resolutions because they do them wrong. But one of the things I've been pushing with my clients is to ask themselves two questions. Say, on December 31st of 2025, who do you want to be? Because you will be a different person. We're a different person every day, Even biologically. We change. Our cells deteriorate. New cells replenish it. But who do you want to be? And then, with that, when you sit down and you reflect on December 31st of next year, how do you want to feel at that moment as you look back on what transpired over the past 365 days? And I think that sets a different tone to going back to you know who you are, what you accomplish.

Speaker 2 24:29

I think we focus so much on what we accomplish and I think we can get, I mean, some people. I love that. I love setting goals. Sometimes I hit them, Sometimes I don't, sometimes I don't, but I do like setting them because it gives me a target. But a lot of times I've hit goals and I think I'm no better off. I'm not a better person. I don't feel any better because that short-term high you get is gone the next day. But if I can say, look who I am compared to who I was a year ago and I'm really happy with those results, I'm happy. I feel really proud or confident or relieved or whatever it might be, because of what has gone on in the past 365 years, I think that has more of an alligator bite that sticks in your brain. What do you think of that?

Speaker 3 25:15

I love it. I think, especially as Americans, we get caught up in. You know, achieve a goal. Achieve a goal. You know, a lot of times we define it financially or by money income or how much money I got in my bank account. I'm not saying that doesn't matter, I'm just saying you're confusing the means with the end. And what you're talking about is who do I really want to be? Yeah, and what changes do I need to make in my life to be that person? Right? You know, think to Perform. My previous company has a great exercise called the values exercise. You can take for free online. If you go to think2perform think the number two, performcom you can identify your top five values and if you believe that knowing your values guides your decision making, then you ought to take 15 or 20 minutes and complete the exercise, because that's your moral compass and that's who we want to be. I want to live my values. Well, to live my values, I've got to know my values.

Speaker 2 26:17

You know what it's interesting? I literally sent two clients this morning my 9.30, I think, or my 8.30 coaching and my 9.30 coaching session or client to do those exercises. Because I asked them that same question and I said have you ever done a values exercise? One said I did it in college, one said no, so I sent them. It might've been three clients, I know. I sent two over to Think2Perform and I, you know when I did it years ago.

Speaker 2 26:40

I read it off every day. I do an exercise every day where I've decided who I want to become as the near perfect version of Brian Bosley. I call it my true peak identity exercise and I had designed it years ago. And every morning I read it out loud with a lot of voice, inflection and a lot of energy. And on the top of it it says I have on there, because mine came down to, I changed the wordings. You know like I put my mind or family, body, mind, spirit, impact those are my five topics, like those aren't the words that were on the thing, but I just changed in that meaning the same thing. You know, like I don't think impact was on there and that's something I read every single day. That make sure that you stick true to those values. You honor those values and a lot of times during the course of the day I'll ask myself Whoa, wait a minute. Is what I'm about to do going to honor or dishonor my values?

Speaker 2 27:28

That's a great question and a lot of times I, most of the time I okay. There are some times I say, oh, I think I'm okay just having it right now. I'm going to sit down and have a couple of gin and tonics, you know, instead of going for a hike or whatever, but it does. It's a moral compass for me. Another question I have for you, chuck, and this is I'm going to ask your thoughts on this one because something I started last December.

Speaker 2 27:50

I was driving from Grand Rapids, michigan, back to Lansing, michigan, and I had spoken with a client. We had lunch and something dawned on me and it was something I said to him and I wasn't really it wasn't a question that was crucial to our conversation, but it stuck in my craw and it was what is my guide this year and what I meant by that is what is a mantra that I can live by over the next 12 months. And as I asked myself that question in my Jeep, it came to me. It was live clean, get dirty. I don't know where it came from. It just said live clean and I thought what the hell does that mean? And it came to me it was okay, over the next year, you focus on living clean, meaning, you know, cleaning in your body, your mind, your soul.

Speaker 2 28:32

But get dirty, do the things that make you uncomfortable, you know. Get in the dirt of life. Go for those long rocks in the woods, you that make you uncomfortable. Get in the dirt of life, go for those long rucks in the woods. Call that prospect that you've been putting off, whatever it is, and I use that and I look at it almost like that statement has floated in front of my face for almost 12 months now and it's like it's always right in front of me there. So I ask myself that same question honor or dishonor? Am I honoring or dishonoring? This year's mantra and it was just a good guide for the year, and so this year I'm going to continue with that. But this year I have another one which is going to be my primary one for this year. It's going to be expand and serve. Expand who I am and what I can offer and serve to other people, you know, in multiple categories. What do you think of having those mantras in life? Are, or do you think those are beneficial?

Speaker 3 29:20

yeah, it's a, it's a kind of a guiding light. You know, it's like a lighthouse, uh, for your life in terms of, like, how you want to be back to the point you were making earlier. You know, whether it's a mantra, whether it's a set of values, it's like this is, this is who I want to be. You know, when I, when I left american express I don't even know if I ever shared this with you I was 40 years old, making a million dollars a year. I had plenty of money in the bank, uh, but I was unhappy and I was thinking about leaving american express and everybody I talked to my my peers, my friends thought I was crazy.

Speaker 3 30:01

So I actually went to a therapist because I wanted her to help me think through the decision I was about to make. And her name was Sharon and I remember, after about four or five conversations with her, I said, sharon, when you listen to me, what do you hear? And she said I hear you've been a human doer and I wonder how you're going to be as a human being. And I was like, what? Like I didn't even know what she was saying to me until, like, about a year later, I was on a street corner in New Zealand talking to a guy. I didn't know about nothing. He didn't want anything from me. I didn't want anything from him. We were just two guys having a conversation. I was like this is what Sharon is talking about. It's like me just connecting with people and how I want to be, as opposed to the next goal, the next achievement, because if we're not careful, goal achievement can be a very empty journey if there's not purpose and significance behind it.

Speaker 2 31:05

You have never told me that story. I don't think, yeah, that's powerful. And I just want to stop and talk to the audience for just a moment. I want you to think of everybody out there and we do think this, especially in our Western culture that if I have more money I'm naturally going to be happier. And I'm here to tell you that's not the truth.

Speaker 2 31:24

Your happiness is determined primarily by what I believe is doing uncomfortable things, challenging yourself. You know, I think they call it I forget what they call it the behavioral scientist. There's a term for it. I know 50% of your happiness is DNA, 10% is like money looks car home and 40% is there's another term for it. But really it comes down to is doing things that are uncomfortable. Challenging yourself, working every day to serve other people. It's becoming a better version of yourself every day and stretching your comfort zone. That's really where happiness comes from. But I want you to think everybody every day. And stretching your comfort zone. That's really where happiness comes from. But I want you to think everybody.

Speaker 2 32:08

Chuck was 40 years old. He was making a million dollars a year, unhappy. So just start to realize that money is not the source of happiness. It can be a portion of your happiness, but if that's your ultimate goal in life, you will probably reach it, or you may or may not, but you're not going to be much happier often. Even if you are, you will be happier for a little bit of time and you're going to go back down to your baseline happiness level Unless you push yourself, unless you take those challenges and take those risks in life and focus intensely on just becoming a better person every day. That's where happiness comes from Every time.

Speaker 2 32:37

Now, that's a good story, chuck, and I think that'll resonate a lot with a lot of people out there who are sitting there thinking, wow, I thought, if I made a million dollars a year, I would naturally be happier. Probably not Think about this, chuck. You've owned a lot of homes in your life and you've bought a lot of new cars. You buy a new home. You are happier for a while I think it's like five to seven months. You're happier For a car it's like two to three months or something, but you always go back down to your baseline happiness.

Speaker 3 33:06

I saw a quote from the actor Jim Carrey the other day. He said I wish everybody would become rich and famous. So they'd realize it's not that great. No, so they'd realize it's not that great.

Speaker 2 33:21

No, well, I mean, you can look at the lives and behaviors of some of these very rich and powerful and famous people. They don't seem very happy.

Speaker 3 33:32

Yeah, I mean, they really don't, and again, I'm not advocating for not doing well financially, no, I'm just saying like don't let that be the guiding force in your life.

Speaker 2 33:49

Have you ever asked a client, chuck? And I've asked a lot of clients, a lot of clients who are in their 20s, and I'll say why are you doing this? Why are you a financial advisor? Why are you going into the executive role? And I always interrupt and say why are you going into the executive role? And I always interrupt and say no, if money is not an option, money is not a proper answer. And it's amazing how many are sitting there stunned and they can't come up with a second response.

Speaker 2 34:13

And I think that's what we work on. We start with money out the door. What's your purpose if money is not it, if it can't be it? And it's hard, but then you do that, you get down to the depths of your soul and I think that's a great exercise for everyone.

Speaker 2 34:27

And I know there are a lot of people out there who have a job where it's not necessarily their passion or they don't feel it's their purpose. They are doing it for the money, because they need to pay bills. I get that. But I do believe that even with inside that job, you can find a way to better yourself. You can find a way to push yourself to take some risks where you will become happier because of that job and you will stay more engaged in that position and then after that you'll be able to promote yourself or be promoted within that firm because you'll have engaged extra skill sets and talents and strengths that you wouldn't have had if you simply just worked for a paycheck or skill sets and talents and strengths that you wouldn't have had if you'd simply just work for a paycheck.

Speaker 3 35:06

You know, I want to expand on that point, brian, because I think it's a really, really important one. Sometimes my unhappiness is my surroundings, but sometimes my unhappiness is coming from how I'm thinking about things, and so what we have to be clear about is is it my thinking, is it what I'm focusing on? That's creating the unhappiness. I heard Tony Robbins if your audience knows who Tony Robbins is author speaker the guy's global. I who Tony Robbins is, author speaker, I mean the guy's global.

Speaker 3 35:43

Anyway, I heard Tony Robbins speak years ago and he said he'd always heard that successful people think more positively.

Speaker 3 35:54

But he also heard that most thought is unconscious.

Speaker 3 35:59

So what he was trying to reconcile for himself is if most thought is unconscious, and so what he was trying to reconcile for himself is well, if most thought is unconscious, how do successful people think more positively? And the breakthrough for him was the way you control what you think about is you ask yourself different questions, and successful people ask themselves different questions. So when a setback occurs, we can either ask ourselves why did that happen to me, which is getting stuck in the victim mentality, or we can ask ourselves what can I learn from this and how can I do better? And successful people ask themselves the last two questions, and so if we want to change how we're thinking, we've got to think about the questions we're asking ourselves, instead of like you know what shitty things are going to happen to me today, maybe like think about like what am I grateful for? How can I add value today? What could I do differently that will allow me to be this, the person I want to be, or live my values? That's a different set of questions.

Speaker 2 37:12

It just reframes. It reboots and reframes your mindset Because, even as you were saying that I was thinking and I'm, you know, I'm looking at my litter in my mom's kitchen window and I just you gain clarity for just a brief moment. If you can hold onto that clarity and carry that through the day, that's a mind shift. You know, I do think that we as humans, I do believe, are naturally prone to see negative. I mean, I think that's how we survive for so many hundreds of thousands of years. We're looking for danger.

Speaker 2 37:42

The exercise that I have found by far and I fought this exercise for decades was writing down, carrying a gratitude journal. I mean, I just carry a journal, but I put it in my journal every morning, five things, six days a week. I get up in the morning at 5. By 5.30, I'm sitting down journaling. The first thing I do is I put the five things I'm grateful for at that moment, and a lot of times it's like I'm just grateful to have a warm cup of coffee in my hand. I'm grateful that my furnace just kicked on, because it's 15 degrees outside, and a lot of times it's more. You know, it's you train your mind to see the positives out there Because I heard I think it was a California Berkeley study that said that for every one positive thing we see in the world, we notice nine negatives in our lives. I should say, and if you can start documenting five every day, 25, 30 a week of positive things, your brain starts to look for positive things.

Speaker 2 38:41

You shift your focus, you shift in your focus, absolutely, you shift your focus, just like you said, and those are such simple things and don't you think that, Chuck, that enjoyment we'll call it, or success in life? So much of it are small things that we do. It's not these big, big macro things, it's these small micro things we do on a consistent basis.

Speaker 3 39:00

Yeah, things, it's these small micro things we do on a consistent basis. Yeah, you know, uh, to that point, brian, one of my favorite books out recently is uh, I'm sure many of your readers have already read it the atomic habits by a guy named James clear, and one of the guiding principles he talks about in that book is what he calls the 1% difference. Can I be 1% better today than I was yesterday? Most of us would answer that question yes, I may not be able to do 50 pushups, but could I do one? Sure, okay. Well, if we get 1% better every day, by the end, 30 days later, a month later, we're talking about 30% better.

Speaker 2 39:39

Right? Well, one of the things that I that I do chuck and I recommend this to so many people is you never do planks. Yeah, on your own, that's. It's the worst thing in the world to do oh no, burpees are the worst.

Speaker 2 39:52

Oh yeah, burpees are the worst I'm not doing. Yeah, you trumped me on that one. I'm not doing burpees. But I roll out of bed every morning, I slap my apple watch on, I lay on the, I walk across the hall, go in my other room and I do planks. And as I'm doing planks because I like to do them, because I'm still half asleep and so, but when I first started I couldn't do 30 seconds, I was like 29 seconds, and so I decided every day, five days a week, add one second a day.

Speaker 2 40:19

Now, if I push myself, I can plank for eight minutes right now, but I only I don't. That's every once in a while. I'll see how far I could go and I can do it, but it really hurts and it hurts my shoulder. So I like, right now I'm. I think I did three minutes, 13 seconds this morning. Tomorrow I'll do 13, three, 14. And you just do that every day. It takes a a while, but you don't really notice one second every day, but you notice if you try to do 30 extra seconds or worse, yet you don't even try to start it at all. Start out with two seconds, five seconds, and I think that's the secret to everything is don't go for a five mile run.

Speaker 3 40:55

Walk around your block today yeah, take the stairs instead of the elevator. I mean, it's little things like that. Drink a little bit, drink an extra glass of water each day. Those, to your point, the little micro habits that we can establish, is a ripple effect on our lives.

Breaking Patterns

Speaker 2 41:12

In so many ways. I have a client right now, chuck. He's a young man, I think he's 37. He'll be listening to it, so he'll know who I'm talking about him and he went through, I think, six or seven weeks where he worked 17 hours a day, every day, seven days a week, working on a project. And I said you realize that you're going to shut down when you get back from this thing, that you're going to in Cleveland, this we're going to demonstrate the project. You're going to be very sick Ah, probably. I said so.

Speaker 2 41:39

I was trying to work with him for these seven or eight weeks to do things differently. Don't just stay in your house all day long and do this 17 hours a day, five or seven days a week. And you know he was stubborn, he really wouldn't do it. Well, he got back on a Wednesday or a Tuesday. He he talked to me on the next week on his Tuesday coaching session. He said I was in bed, sick Wednesday and Thursday, couldn't get out of bed. I was in bed, sick Wednesday and Thursday, couldn't get out of bed. So I said so.

Speaker 2 42:03

I worked with him on the mantra exercise what will be your mantra next year? And he really couldn't think of any. He said do you have any suggestions? And I said I would call it break patterns, break patterns. Your patterns have gotten so ingrained, with you not leaving your place, you're working, you're obsessed with your work, that you can do that for a while at 37. I said you can't do that at 45. And you really can at 37, long-term to be at your true peak, your highest level.

Speaker 2 42:26

But so this year his is breaking patterns and I think that's weird. When you talk about micro habits it's about every day do something different, and for him it could just be get in my car and go for a ride around the block or go for a walk or go to the grocery store. It's something that's going to help him break patterns. So sometimes it's not necessarily just getting 1% better, it's when you interrupt, it's break a pattern over time. So then you can start working on that 1% increase in life, because some people are so obsessed or they're so stuck in this habit of dysfunction that it's hard for them to say well, what do I work on?

Speaker 2 42:59

That's the first thing I tell them is just break a pattern, do that for a while, break patterns until your brain realizes you can do all these other little things and you still are going to be successful. You're still going to be, you're surviving and you're still doing well in your life and your career, even though you've changed things. Just do something different. Drink a different type of coffee tomorrow, I don't care. Stop at a different gas station. Just do something different so your mind gets comfortable with something new.

Speaker 2 43:24

That's a little uncomfortable and then from there you can start doing okay, I want to improve on this and get that 1% better on something or a lot, like you said. What I like about what you said earlier is you said it's not just about being successful financially, it's also about your relationships and all the other things. It's growing in all these multitude of areas in your life which most people don't think that we get maniacally focused and you and I did it when we were younger, maniacally focused on things and you get older you realize no, I want a holistic life, more holistic success.

Speaker 3 43:58

Well, you see people in your life that have been maniacal and there's always a cost to that. So, if I'm maniacal, my son's a pro snowboarder and I remember when he was growing up, one of my good colleagues is a sports psychologist and he would always say to me make sure your son has interests outside of snowboarding. And I'd be like why you know he's focused on that? What's the big deal? And he'd say because when snowboarding stops, you want him to have a life, uh, outside of snowboarding. Because when people do only one thing, they, when it stops, either because you're injury, you're injured or you retire, you have. No, there is no balance to your life. There's. There's benefits to it, maybe financially, but to your point, like it's life is more than financial Right.

Speaker 2 45:02

Well, do you think it has something to do with? When we do that so maniacally, like that, that becomes our identity, and when that stops, who are we? I?

Speaker 3 45:13

think Steve Jobs has a quote if you want to go fast, go alone.

Speaker 2 45:24

Which would mean, if you want to go fast, go alone, which would mean if you want to go far.

Speaker 3 45:27

If you want to go far, you got to go slow, you got to go together. I like that.

Speaker 2 45:33

Did you find Chuck when you left American Express? Was there a sense that your identity was in question at that time, because you were there for quite a while and you reached obviously very high levels? Was your identity in question for yourself at all?

Speaker 3 45:50

Absolutely. Yeah, I mean you're absolutely. I didn't. I never considered myself a guy who was like really caught up in what he did, even though I I did it really well for a long time. But when you don't do it for a while and people say, well, what do you do now, Chuck? And I'd say, well, nothing, I'm retired, or whatever, I mean like they had nothing to say to me. And I found myself at one point at American Express, in fact, I pulled my wife aside. We were having a party at our house and I pulled her aside and I said I was like anxious, I was nervous, I said I don't know how to talk to people about anything other than work. Right, it concerned me that much, and so I think we have to be careful about pursuing success at all costs. And again, if success is just financial, it's a very narrow definition of success. That's why I like this. Am I enjoying my life? Am I living my values? Am I the person that I want to be? And if I am, then I'm successful.

Speaker 2 46:50

It's amazing it takes us so many decades to figure that out Sometimes. I mean, I know that I went through. I went through two I would call, as they used to call them, identity crisis. The one was I was only with the american express for five years when I left it, when I was 29 years old, and I remember it took a long time and I had to get working because I mean, I didn't have a, I didn't have much money. I mean, when I left american express I think I've told you this I mean I had a sob 900.

Speaker 2 47:16

I owed a thousand dollars on that car chuck and after I left detroit american express in detroit and uh, I moved into my girlfriend and I. We moved into a little shack in pinkney, michigan, outside of ann arbor, and it was actually a little. It was a shack, I mean it was had heat and everything you know, water and toilets and stuff, but it was like a. It was like an old hunting camp, but it was in this little subdivision, um, in a poor part of town, and I had to turn my sob into the dealership. I couldn't afford the $900 or $1,000. And that was a smack in the face, because not only did I lose that, but I lost all my friends because I was so maniacally focused for five years on my career, to grow my career in the company, that all my friends were that we worked so many hours. Obviously, as you know, on the weekends you're hanging out with people from the company, your peers and your other people around from the Detroit region anyway, and that was a big shift for me. It took me, but I was just busy, so it was easier for me to get over that crash in my identity, or change in my identity, I should say.

Speaker 2 48:22

A change in my identity, I should say. But when Dawson, my youngest, graduated from high school and went on to college, that identity crisis for lack of a better word that one stuck because I was a dad for, oh my goodness, since I was 19, 30, my goodness, 18 plus 16, what is that? 34 years of my life. I was a dad, you know where I, where the kid, who, either my daughter or my son, where they needed me every day, and all of a sudden nobody needed me. That one took me about a year and a half to get through. It did. So we have to be careful with how we identify and, like you said, like Sharon said to you you know you, you've been always focused on um what you. How would she say that?

Speaker 3 49:00

She was like you've been a human doer. I wonder how you're going to be as a human being. I love that.

Speaker 2 49:06

I could have heard that 25 years ago. I needed that Sure.

Speaker 3 49:12

Yeah, I think what I see, and maybe you do too, brian, is with younger generations they're not typically as maniacal, maybe as as earlier generations were about career, as myopic about that. Like I notice with my kids and my fiance's kids, they, they're like I want to enjoy my life now, I'm not going to wait till I'm 60 or 55 to enjoy it. And they have a more. They tend to have more of a balanced approach to it, almost to the other other extreme, yeah, where they saw their parents sacrifice everything for their career and have all this money but maybe weren't necessarily happy or fulfilled, and they're like you know, I, I, I don't want, want that.

Speaker 2 50:01

I've seen that too. I've seen that with. I think also there's a point where you know maybe not our generation, I think we are on the end cusp of that where pensions were keeping people in companies for a long time. I'm sure we're now. You know you can take your 401k and you can go into other companies. There are more options. I think they're more.

Speaker 3 50:26

I don't know if educated is the right word, but they're certainly more aware of the other options out there through, um, the internet and social media. Oh yeah, technology is made, I mean yeah, created so much more opportunity to work from anywhere. You know, um, I look at my son and you know he makes so much of his living from social media. I mean, it's just, it's crazy stuff that didn't exist 20 years ago.

Speaker 2 50:44

It didn't, no, and I think there's a good and bad to that. Chuck, what's next for you Like? What do you see in the? What do you project for you in the next year? In the next year, what do you think 25 looks like for you?

Speaker 3 50:59

looks like for you? I think for me, I want to continue. I mean, I'll continue building my business. I enjoy who I work with, I enjoy building decision reflex, but I think I'm putting more of an emphasis on family relationships. My parents, as I mentioned earlier, are aging, so I don't know how much longer we're going to have them. I see my kids getting older and starting their own families, and so I want to do whatever I can to help them. Um, and, by the way, sometimes helping people doesn't mean giving them things. Sometimes helping people means not giving them things. You know, spoken as a parent, you know, you know so. So I think I just want to focus on continuing to live my values.

Speaker 3 51:54

I'm grateful for my health. I have, I'm fortunate enough to have great health. I'm going to be getting married here soon, probably in a year or so, um, but I I back to what you're saying earlier I'm not measuring my life. I have goals for my business, of course, but it's not gonna define me. They're important to me and we were clear about what we're gonna do to hit them but's not going to define me or my happiness, and I want to keep that in perspective. I guess is the way to answer your question.

Speaker 2 52:29

I like that, and we're going to include a link to your new firm Decision Reflects Consulting in the show notes. So I'd like anybody who's interested please check it, click on it. I'm going to include a note to the book that Chuck and Doug Linnick wrote together. That will be on the bottom, and also Chuck's TED Talk, and when the new one comes out, I'll probably add that one to it too. So, chuck, I have one final question for you, though December 20, 31st 2025, and you and I called and talked to each other on the phone, and you and I called and talked to each other on the phone, and how do you want to feel at that moment when you look back on the previous 365 days? If you could give me some adjectives, how do you want to feel?

Speaker 3 53:12

Grateful is the one that comes to mind Perfect, grateful, satisfied, satisfied in the sense of I have lived my values. I I acted responsibly, I've made good choices. You know, decision reflex the name of the company is we put decision in there on purpose, because we make 35,000 students a day and we're not going to make every one of them great. We're going to make mistakes, but hopefully I've made great choices consistent with my values. I developed an appreciation for having a simple life. I find that when I have a simple life, I'm happier, and that's what I've done over the last few years in terms of simplifying my life. I enjoy my life and so I hope I'm happier, and that's what I've done over the last few years in terms of simplifying my life. I enjoy my life, and so I hope I'm looking back on it, feeling like I've made some progress, but not jeopardized that gratitude or that simplicity.

Speaker 2 54:14

Oh, perfect, I love that Brother. You are always a pleasure to talk to.

Speaker 3 54:19

Likewise, Brian. Thanks for having me, man.

Speaker 2 54:21

It was just an honor to have you to be the first one that I did after a two-month sabbatical, the first one I've ever done in my boyhood home. I mean it couldn't have been a better guest and I appreciate you so much for being such an amazing guest. We're going to have you back on again. It won't be two years. We want to hear from you in at to no longer than a year to see how things are going and congratulations on getting married in the next year. So appreciate that I appreciate that man.

Speaker 2 54:43

Thank you very much, all the best to you, brian, all the best to your audience. All right, thank you so much, everyone. Thank you for tuning in this week. Uh, please hit that like button, please subscribe, please give us some reviews and please share this episode with three people. We just this. This was what 50 minutes, 55 minutes of nothing but pure experienced wisdom, coming from a man with high character who has succeeded in all forms of life. So I mean, there's a lot of people out there who need to hear this. Share it with them. I'll talk to you all soon. In the meantime, please get out there and strive, love and live. I appreciate each and every one of you. Take care.