The Bamboo Lab Podcast
"Ordinary people doing extraordinary things!"
The Bamboo Lab Podcast
The Earned Life: Wisdom from #1 Leadership Coach Marshall Goldsmith
"You can never be happy and find peace with more. You can also never be happy and find peace with less. You can only be happy and find peace with what you have – and that can only happen right here, right now."
These profound words from Dr. Marshall Goldsmith encapsulate the wisdom shared in this extraordinary conversation. From the son of a gas station owner in rural Kentucky to becoming the world's top executive coach, Marshall's journey exemplifies how an ordinary person can achieve extraordinary things while maintaining humility and purpose.
Marshall takes us through pivotal moments that shaped his philosophy – from overcoming the limiting belief that he had "no mechanical aptitude," to witnessing heartbreaking poverty in Africa during a famine, to learning servant leadership from the remarkable Frances Hesselbein. His stories aren't just entertaining; they're transformative lessons about recognizing our self-imposed limitations and finding meaning in service to others.
What stands out most is how Marshall has distilled decades of coaching the world's top executives into actionable wisdom anyone can apply. His six daily questions practice (starting with "Did I do my best to...") offers a simple but powerful framework for meaningful change. And his admission that even he – the creator of this method – needs someone to hold him accountable speaks volumes about both human nature and the importance of structured support systems.
Throughout our conversation, Marshall exemplifies the rare combination of brilliant insight delivered with genuine warmth. Whether discussing Buddhist philosophy, the psychology of leadership, or the power of authentic gratitude, he communicates complex ideas with remarkable clarity and heart. His mission statement has simplified with age: "I want to help you, a real human being, have a little better life."
Ready to transform your approach to leadership, relationships, and personal fulfillment? Visit marshallgoldsmith.com for free access to his documentary, articles, and coaching resources – and start asking yourself those six daily questions today.
https://www.marshallgoldsmith.com/
https://bamboolab3.com/
Hello and welcome to the Bamboo Lab Podcast with your host, peak Performance Coach, brian Bosley. Are you stuck on the hamster wheel of life, spinning and spinning but not really moving forward? Are you ready to jump off and soar? Are you finally ready to sculpt your life? If so, you've landed in the right place. This podcast is created and broadcast just for you, all of you strivers, thrivers and survivors out there. If you'd like to learn more about Brian and the Bamboo Lab, feel free to reach out to explore your true peak level at wwwbamboolab3.com.
Speaker 2:Welcome everyone to this week's episode of the Bamboo Lab Podcast. As always, I'm your host, brian Bosley. Folks, I have to share with you today. I have been excited for this interview for two years now. We have one of my personal and professional heroes on today, and other than my mother, who we haven't gotten on yet I'll be able to say that again, hopefully, in a few months when she comes on this is the first time I've ever introduced somebody as such. Today, folks, we have Dr Marshall Goldsmith on.
Speaker 2:Marshall has been recognized as one of the top 10 business thinkers in the world and the top-rated executive coach at the Thinkers 50th Ceremony in London since 2011. Folks, he is a mentor and coach to the top executives and thinkers and leaders all across the world. He has written four New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestsellers. One is called the Earned Life, which I just finished reading a few weeks ago. Another one is Mojo. The third one is Triggers, which I just finished this week for the second time, and my personal all-time success book titled what Got you here Won't Get you there.
Speaker 2:The editors of Amazoncom have recognized two of his books both Triggers and what Got you here, won't Get you there as being the top 100 leadership and success books ever written. He is the only author alive today with two books on the list author alive today with two books on the list. On LinkedIn, marshall has been ranked number 58 for content creators in the world, out of 250 million users, and on all social medias he's in the top 10 of all content creators in the field of leadership and management. But, more importantly, he's a Buddhist philosopher, he's the father of two, he's a grandfather and he's the husband of Lida, my new friend Marshall. Welcome to the Bamboo Lab podcast.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm honored to be here Well thank you Now.
Speaker 2:I told you before we started recording, I've been following you since 2007,. Since I read the book what Got you here, won't Get you there, which just changed the way I think about my life, both personally and professionally. So I've gotten to study you and you know, watch your content on social media and the documentary that was recently made about you. But can you please tell the audience the bamboo pack, as we call them a little bit about yourself? You know where you're from your childhood, your family, who or what inspired you growing up?
Speaker 3:Well, I mean, I like the title helping ordinary people do extraordinary things. I was brought up in a background you could say was pretty ordinary. I'm from a small town in Kentucky called Valley Station, kentucky. I was brought up in a low-income, low-education environment. The first four years we were in school we had an outhouse. We didn't have indoor plumbing so I didn't go to Harvard Prep and my high school came in number two from the bottom in Kentucky in academic achievement. So that's you know. I wasn't brought up to writing for the New York Times bestsellers. From there the odds were not real good. So then I went to undergrad school, a little engineering school, rose-hulman Institute of Technology. I made very high test scores, fortunately, and a terrible attitude. Almost got thrown out, made five Ds, barely graduated. But last year I went back and gave the commencement address, got an honorary PhD and I said let's hear it for the bottom of the class. You never know, you never know who's going to be a success, let's hear it for the bottom. Then I got an MBA at Indiana University and a PhD at UCLA.
Speaker 3:I was a college professor and dean and then for the next 47 years I did three things I traveled all around the world speaking and teaching. So I've been to 102 countries on American Airlines alone. I have over 11 million frequent flyer miles. I'm a mega, mega flyer. Then I love speaking and teaching. I don't do that anymore, but I did it for 47 years.
Speaker 3:Then I coach people. As you mentioned, I'm in the coaches CO4, pfizer, glaxo, world Bank, walmart, mayo Clinic you know on and on and on. And what I like about coaching is that's where I learn everything. So I've coached five people who are CEO of the Air in the United States, and so I've learned a whole lot from these people. And then the final thing is, as you mentioned, I write books and articles. Now I have done four New York Times bestsellers, but I've also done about 50 books that virtually no one read other than my mother, my father and associated relatives. So I have done a few books and sold four million copies, but I've also done a bunch that didn't sell any. So anyway, life is great.
Speaker 3:I live in Nashville. I live in Nashville. Now we'll impress your listeners. I've got fancy neighbors. One of my neighbors is in the Rascal Slats, a great country group. Nicole Kidman is one of my neighbors. Keith Urban is my neighbor. Reese Witherspoon is my neighbor. Reese Witherspoon is my neighbor, and the woman who owns the house across the street is Taylor Swift. So I lived here in Nashville. My daughter is a professor at Vanderbilt. That's why I lived here. I've got two grandkids here and my son's an entrepreneur and he lives in Austin, texas. So that's the story of me.
Speaker 2:Wasn't your daughter on the TV show Survivor?
Speaker 3:She was on the third season of Survivor. About 40 people watched her every week, yeah. So she was on Survivor in the third season and that kind of went to her head. So she went to Hollywood after that to be a movie star. That lasted about two years. So she got her butt handed to her, which is good for her. It taught her a little humility. Then she went back to Yale and got a PhD and, as I said, now she's an endowed chair, full professor at Vanderbilt and she's now the associate provost, whatever that is.
Speaker 2:I did some research on your children and I did see that I didn't know she was on Survivor. That's one piece of information I did not know until the last few days.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, that's it.
Speaker 2:I've really been fascinated about learning about your childhood with your dad being in the. Was he a mechanic or he had an auto shop of some type?
Speaker 3:He had a little two-pump gas station. Gas station, yeah, mechanic and auto shop of the stretch. This is a two-pump gas station.
Speaker 2:And your mother said to what? To you when you were growing up? I thought that was so. I've heard you talk about this so many times, about your mother talking about your mechanical skills.
Speaker 3:Yeah, she said. She told me I was smart. I was extremely smart. I was probably the smartest kid in Ballard Station, kentucky, and I had no mechanical skills. And I will never have any mechanical skills. She didn't want me to work at the gas station, right?
Speaker 2:Well, how'd that turn out for you? How many? What kind of mechanical skills do you have today?
Speaker 3:Well, what happened is I'm never in cars, encouraged around cars, tools, mechanical things, so I don't learn. So, my friends, you know, what do you think about this universal join? I thought that was something people smoked, right. I don't know what universal join is and I take a test, a United States Army aptitude test. I think I scored the bottom two percentile of the United States. They show you pictures of tools. You had to guess the name of the tools. I don't know the name of these tools, right? So now the Army said I have no mechanical aptitude. Oh, by the way, key oh, by the way, key word to this conversation, on a serious note, is the word aptitude. Now, no mechanical achievement means you haven't done it. No, mechanical aptitude means you can't do it, can't do it. When somebody says you have no aptitude, that means you can't do it. So I've never encouraged you on any of this stuff. I'm 26 years old, I'm getting a PhD at UCLA and the teacher is a guru figure.
Speaker 3:Dr Kanban says what are you good at? What do you need to do better? Well, I said what am I good at? Oh, scholarly pursuits, research. What was I saying? Smart, smart, I am smart. What do you know good at. I said I have no mechanical skills. I will never have any mechanical skills. He said how do you know? I said said it's hopeless.
Speaker 3:I took a test. I was defeated by random chance. He said how are your mathematical skills? Oh, perfect score in the SAT math achievement test. Nine courses of math, best calculus, excellent mathematical skills. He said why is it? You can solve complex mathematical problems, but you cannot solve simple mechanical problems. I thought that was a good point. He says how's your android coordination? I said I guess it's okay. I could play pinball games, shoot pool. He said why could you play pinball games or shoot pool, but you can't have anyone else? When I was 26 years old, I realized there's only one reason I had no mechanical aptitude. I was told I had no mechanical skills. There was no physiological reason, I had no mechanical skills and I just believed it and it became part of my identity. So I see this all the time. When I coach people, somebody says I can't listen, I can't listen. I've never been able to listen. I can't listen. Look at the guy's ears. What are you? Got something stuck in there. Why can't you listen? You can't you listen. You can't listen to.
Speaker 2:You keep telling yourself you can't listen. Well, you know, I you have. We share a similar story. My father was. I grew up in a small town in michigan and my father, father who passed away in 1971 when I was four and a half, and he was a mechanic and owned a gas station and an auto repair shop as well, and I was young. But he would tell my two older brothers if you ever pick up a wrench, I'm going to hit you with it. There's a better way to make a living, and one of my brothers has zero mechanical aptitude skills or hasn't tried them. The other one is very adept at building fixing, repairing. So one listened and one didn't, and I was too young to hear him so I don't think he was talking to me. That's the way life is. You shared a story that I heard one time Marshall about I believe the gentleman Dennis Mudd is that some was that the name. He did a roof for your parents.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's what led to my. Let me tell you, I got into the coaching business or the leadership development business at all. So I'm a very young man and I just finished my PhD at UCLA. So I'm very fortunate and I met this man named Dr Paul Hersey. Now he and Ken Blanchard invented something called situational leadership. I'm very lucky. So I'm a young guy. So he kindly invites me to go to his class for free, which cost 500 bucks a person back then. So I'm sitting in the back going man, this guy's good, I want to be him when I grow up. Well, I said look, I'll serve the coffee. I'll move the tables, I'll sit in the back. Just let me sit here and learn from you. That was smart.
Speaker 3:One day he got double booked. He said can you do what I do? I said I don't know. Can you do this? I said I don't know. He said I'll pay $1,000 for one day. This was 47 years ago. I'm a 28-year-old kid, I'm making $15,000 a year. He said I'll give you $1,000 for a day. I said sign me up, coach. So I fly to New York. I do a program for the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company. They're phenomenally angry when I show up because I'm not him. But then I got ranked first place of all the speakers for the whole two-week program. He calls them up expecting to get his butt handed to him and people at MetLife said look, we were upset, but this guy came in first place, send him again. He called me up and says you want to do this again? I said I'm making $15,000 a year, you're paying $10,000 a day. Yes, sir, I'll do this again.
Speaker 3:That's how I got into leadership development and in coaching, somewhat accidental. There was nothing called executive coaching, there was no field of coaching. So I just meet this CEO I'm working with. He says I've got this kid young, smart, dedicated, hardworking. He said he's a jerk. He's arrogant, stubborn. It would be worth a fortune to me if we changed kids' behavior. So, remembering our previous conversation, I said I like fortunes, maybe I could help him. He said I doubt it. I said I think I can do it. He said I doubt it. I said look, I'll work with a kid for a year. He gets better paying me. You don't get better as free. What did the CEO say, sold, he got better, I got paid. I did not get paid one cent for my coaching for 47 years unless my clients got better. Better was not judged by me or them. It was judged by everyone around them.
Speaker 3:Where did I learn this, dennis Budd? Back in Kentucky we were poor. The roof starts leaking. You got to have a new roof. You may be poor, but you don't have a roof. The house is trashed. You may be poor, but you don't have a roof, the house is trashed.
Speaker 3:Well, to save money, my dad had me try to help Dennis Mudd. All right, so I tried to help Dennis Mudd. We'd make this roof and the roof you know he's very proud of. The roof worked very hard. It got me interested to try to do a good job. So the roof gets done. Dennis Mudd who was, by the way way, probably even more poor than we were looked at my dad named Bill and says Bill, I want you to inspect the roof. If that roof is of high quality, pay me. If that roof is not of high quality, it's free. I looked at Dennis Mudd. I was maybe 14, 15. You know what I said I want to be him when I grow up. I looked at Dennis Mudd I was maybe 14, 15. You know what I said I want to be him when I grow up. Wow, that guy's poor, but he's not cheap.
Speaker 2:Right and as somebody who truly believes in their craft and wants to, they have their purpose down in life as to provide, in his case, for Dennis was to provide a solid roof, keep the customer happy. And you got to wonder, I think about stories like that. I've heard you share that story before and I think I read it in the Earned Life or one of the books that I've read, and I thought, think about those moments in life when we have an opportunity, like Dennis did when you were 14 years old, to say that to your father, where he didn't think that this was going to create a turning point for you or something that you were going to take later on in life and use it to impact the world. And I think about stories like that in the sense of everything we do and say is being watched to some degree, some by a lot of people, some by one or two persons, but at the same time, when we do things like that, it can have such a dramatic turning point for another human being that watches how we choose to either use our integrity or perhaps not to use our integrity for the negative. And when I read that story it made me think.
Speaker 2:I read that story, I think for the first time a few months ago, about Dennis sharing that with your father and you being a participant, and when he said that I thought, oh my gosh, I wonder how I'm acting, the things I'm saying, how am I holding my own integrity in my belief system for the value I provide to people? How am I holding that to that test? That's a tough test to hold yourself to to say I'm not going to get paid unless I do the job. I think that's, that's fantastic. And I didn't know that's how you your fee for service with your clients was was structured either until the last year or so.
Speaker 3:I think, that's fantastic. Well, you know, what happened is to me, dennis Mudd had more integrity than I will ever have. He was poor, right, he needed the money and you know, he doesn't get paid, he doesn't eat so well, right, I was never that poor, you. I mean when I was working with paul hersey, when I talked to that ceo, right, I mean I was making 200 000 bucks a year 45 years ago. I wasn't poor. I was not poor, you know, I mean, what I did is integrity. What he did was more integrity.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's a good way to look at it. I do see that a lot though Marshall. In the world I see a lot of people who have nothing are the ones who oftentimes give the most.
Speaker 3:Well, I mean, yeah, I agree with you and you're saying ordinary people doing extraordinary things. I published that thing about Dennis Mudd that you read and somebody sent me an email and said you know, after Dennis Mudd put on roofs, he was a bus driver and then, after he would drop me off in the bus, he would talk to me sometimes. This kid became the number one small business guy in Kentucky. You know what he said. Thank you, Dennis Mudd.
Speaker 2:Wow, it gives me goosebumps when I think about the impact we have on people around us and everything we say, think, feel, do people are watching, and if we all could take that into account in our own lives, what dramatic impact we could make to better this world.
Speaker 3:I completely agree.
Speaker 2:You know, Dennis Marshall one of the things that reminds me of Dennis when I was living in Grand Rapids, Michigan, I moved four years ago to follow my daughter and my son, kind of like you did, from moving to Kentucky. From moving to Kentucky, my daughter moved to Marquette, Michigan, on Lake Superior, and three years later my son graduated high school and declared to go to Northern Michigan University, which is in the same town. My daughter lives on on Lake Superior, and I followed them up. But before then, every Christmas, right around the Christmas season, my son and I we would go buy 25, 30 pizzas and we'd collect clothing and, you know, boots and hats and jackets and scarves, and and a couple of years, we brought his friends with us, took them right out of school and said this is what we're doing.
Speaker 2:We would go down to the, to the poorest area of Grand Rapids, Michigan, downtown, in the city, where the homeless people would, you know, come out of the shelters, and we would give pizzas and we'd open up the back of my Jeep and we'd give out clothes and what I was so surprised by this I would offer a pizza to everybody, a full pizza, you know, and they wouldn't take it and run. They would go down the street and they'd open it up to their friends. And when we'd drive away, we'd see, you know, three or four blocks down the road there'd be a group of people eating a box of pizza that the one person who got it from us was sharing with them. And I would stop and ask individuals who I didn't think had pizza, who weren't there when we gave it away, could I give you some clothes or pizza?
Speaker 2:And so many of these people would say no, I have had enough food today and I have enough clothing. But there's a group of people down here that might need it. And I thought these people have literally almost nothing materialistically in life, but yet they're turning down food, they're sharing food, they're sharing clothing and offering it to other people. And it was such an eye-opening experience for myself and especially for my son and his friends. But they were 11, 12, 13 years old, and so when I read about Dennis, I thought that's so true in so many areas of life, those who have the least often give the most, as long as the integrity is intact.
Speaker 3:So I like it. Yeah, it's completely true.
Speaker 2:Can I ask you a question? I love this question, Marshall. In the last, let's say, 12 months, what is one of the greatest learnings you've had in life?
Speaker 3:I would say in the last 12 months, as I've grown older and older, my mission in life has become simpler and simpler For everyone listening. You're part of my mission in life. My mission today is quite simple I want to help you, a real human being, have a little better life. So if one person listening to this podcast has a little better life, that's my mission.
Speaker 2:Well, I know you've done that already today with me. So, and when this thing airs, I think you're going to help a few people have a little better life. Thank you for that. Now, was that something when you were younger, starting off in coaching? Did you have a different mission back then, or a different purpose, or had you even really defined your purpose yet?
Speaker 3:No, I was just making it up to set land. There was nothing called coaching, I know there wasn't. People said you want to be this when you grew up. There was no, this right. I just made it up, you know, and basically, look, I was enjoying what I did. So it's not like I'm and I, you know, look, I started out poor. But when I went into business I went to work with Paul Hersey. I was. I made a ton of money as a kid. I mean, when I was 40 years old I moved into basically today's $560 home. So you know, I didn't start at the bottom. My first clients were IBM, mckinsey, warner Lambert, you know, weyerhaeuser, et cetera. So I kind of started at the top again because of Paul Hersey. The reason I give everything away is because of Peter Drucker and Paul Hersey and all the people that helped me. Maybe I can help some of us.
Speaker 2:Well, I think, yeah, one of the things I think about. When I started 29 years ago and you started long before I did and I know you're the pioneer of, really kind of the pioneer of executive coaching, I refer to you as the godfather of executive coaching and, from my perspective anyway, and you're, think, one of the the the founders of the 360 feedback, um, custom design, I think, 360 feedback. So I can't imagine, when I started I didn't know there were things as executive coaches, I just knew I was a fairly good, uh, motivator and inspirer of people when I worked for american express financial and I was young, I was young and naive, so I didn't know any better. When did you work for American Express? I started there in 1991 as a financial advisor.
Speaker 2:Who was the CEO, harvey?
Speaker 3:Golub. Harvey Golub was one of my clients.
Speaker 2:He was oh yeah, Well, I remember I had a chance to talk with him one time we were in Monterey, California.
Speaker 3:American Express was our biggest client.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, I remember he came to our leadership conference in Monterey, california, and I was there and he left and a helicopter flew him in and they flew him out and he was walking out the door with a couple of guys surrounding him. And he was walking out the door with a couple of guys surrounding him Like I don't know if they were security, because he couldn't fly commercial, I don't think, because of potential threats, terrorist threats. So I remember he was going to the helicopter that was there and I looked around and nobody was walking him to his helicopter other than these two security guys. So I piled it behind him and I started talking to him and I said I just want to thank you. He asked me who I was, where I came from, and I said I'm from, I'm the Detroit, I'm the Detroit region. He goes oh, you're one of John Hans' boys.
Speaker 2:John Hans was our vice president in charge of Detroit. I said yeah, I shook his hand and he got in his helicopter and flew away. It was one of the highlights of my life. I thought why is nobody else taking this 30-second opportunity to meet company you?
Speaker 3:know of our parent company. I know Harvey Gold very well, or I knew him very well. He was our biggest customer for American Express. Yeah, in fact there's a guy named Joe Kilty that he had an HR for American Express and the name of our business was Kilty Goldsmith and Company. Okay, so Joe was my partner, went to work for Harvey, so I've got a long history there.
Speaker 2:Well, we have a few similarities. Then you know another similarity we have we share the same birthday, march 20th. March 20th yeah, I just noticed that a couple days ago when I was preparing to talk to you, I thought, well, our fathers were both in the mechanical trades, didn't want us to go into that trade and we both share a birthday. So there you go. Can I ask you a question? I love this question, marshall, and it's a really deep question. A lot of my listeners like to hear what is one of the most difficult things you have gone through in your life. And then, how did you get through that time?
Speaker 3:Well, I think you know, if I look at my life, I have been remarkably blessed and I think one of my most difficult adjustments when I was young was just making peace with life. When I was in undergrad school, you know I was not particularly happy back then. You know I was not particularly happy back then. I was more angry, self-righteous, know-it-all and really not happy and, over the years, just learning to make peace with life. There's another story I've written about Dr Fred Case at UCLA who helped me. I'm working down at City Hall and he was my dissertation advisor and I'd been at UCLA. Who helped me. I'm working down at City Hall and he was my dissertation advisor and I'd been at UCLA for a while and he was head of the planning commission.
Speaker 3:So I start ranting about the government of Los Angeles. Oh, he says you know, marshall, I'm getting some negative feedback about you. Feedback is you're kind of negative and judgmental and people don't like to be around you. What's the problem? I go rah, rah, rah, rah, rah. I start complaining about the government of Los Angeles is inefficient. She starts laughing at me. She says what a stunning breakthrough. You, marshall Goldsmith oh brilliant one have discovered the city government of Los Angeles is inefficient. Do you have any other problems? Rah, rah, rah, rah, rah. She goes. Oh my goodness, you have discovered that when people give politicians millions of dollars, they're actually not sure to those people and everybody else.
Speaker 3:He said I don't know, marshall, I hate to tell you this, but Mike Barber knew all this before he started. He said I'm not going to give you a PhD for this. I said, marshall, you're coming across as a pain in the butt, judgmental, whiny and negative. Option A you can continue this bad behavior and you're fired and you're never going to graduate with a PhD and you just wasted five years of your life. Or option B is you can start having some fun. Try to do something good, make a real difference, but have fun and quit being a pain in the ass. What's it going to be, son? I said well, you know, dr Case, let's have a little fun here. That was good advice.
Speaker 2:That's great advice. Do you think, when you found Buddhism and you started incorporating Buddhism into your life, did that help you to find that peace that you were looking for and to make peace with your life?
Speaker 3:Oh, definitely, I'm not a religious Buddhist, I'm a philosophical Buddhist, right. And I mean to me, look, there are many schools of Buddhism. So when somebody says they're a Christian, well they can be a Catholic or Southern Baptist or Unitarian. That means very different things to different people. The differences in Buddhism are even bigger. So as soon as they're Buddhist, I don't want to tell you much of anything. But my school of Buddhism is very simple.
Speaker 3:Buddha was I mean I don't know if there was a Buddha, but you know, thousands of years ago. Who knows what really happened? But in any case, the metaphorical Buddha was brought up very rich. His father was a king and he was protected from life. He lived in a bubble. He kept getting more and more and surrounded by beauty and youth and all this stuff. But then one day he was able to sneak outside the bubble with his friend and the first trip he learned what's that People get old, very bad. Second trip he sneaks out, out. What's that people get sick, even worse. Third trip people die. Old, sick, die, not good.
Speaker 3:He said all of this, more, more, more stuff, that's not going to do it. He gave up on all that stuff and went out in the woods and basically starved himself and tried to live a very simple life, but that didn't work either. You know what he learned you really can never be happy and find peace with more. You can also never be happy and find peace with less. You finally realize something there's only one thing you can ever be happy and find peace with what you have. And there's only one thing you can ever be happy and find peace with what you have. And there's only one time you can ever find peace and happiness. When is that? That would be now. And there's only one place. That place is called here. That's it.
Speaker 2:That's a tough one for a lot of people to incorporate. I know I have a challenge with that. A lot for breathing.
Speaker 3:I'm going to get breathing, breathing, breathing. I'm going to give you some protein. Are you ready?
Speaker 2:I'm ready.
Speaker 3:Breathing. You just said I have a challenge with this. Do you have an incurable genetic defect that is forcing you to continue having this challenge?
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 3:Then quit saying I have a challenge with this. I want you to repeat after me I used to have a challenge with this.
Speaker 2:I used to have a challenge with this. I do not have an incurable genetic defect. I do not have an incurable genetic defect. Therefore, I do not have to continue having a challenge with this for the rest of my life. Therefore, I do not have to continue being challenged with this for the rest of my life and I'm going to have to continue being challenged with this for the rest of my life and I'm going to quit talking that way and I'm going to quit talking that way. There you go, there you go. I will listen to that and write those words down again, trust me, and I'll put those right next to my chair in my office every morning.
Speaker 3:Very good.
Speaker 2:Very good. I was really struck by the picture of you that you shared as one of your best pictures, one of your favorite pictures. I think you were in. I believe you were in Africa in 1984 with the Red Cross, yeah that was it.
Speaker 2:I have that picture right now, sitting propped up on my desk on my iPad, and I know the audience can't see this picture, but can you share the meaning? So, everybody, it's a picture of marshall with the red cross, with a bunch of african children, and they're testing them for uh, primarily I, for lack of a better way to say it whether they're going to live or or not. Can you share the meaning behind that picture, in that moment, marshall?
Speaker 3:yeah, there's a pictures of me. Now again, I'm very young, I don't know how old was back back in 1984. I can work backwards. So I'm a very young guy. I'm 35 years old and I'm a consultant and I'm going to Africa because I was a volunteer coach for the CEO of the Red Cross in the United States and he was kind enough to invite me on his trip he thought it would be good for me. Well, he was right about that. To the library on this trip. He thought it would be good for me. Well, he was right about that.
Speaker 3:Well, I go to Africa and there they had a great famine and massive starvation. See, people in the United States say, well, we have starvation here. No, we don't. Americans have never seen starvation. When there is starvation, there is no food in their garbage can. There's no food on the floor. People eat anything. Starvation is ugly. I'm around thousands of people who are literally dying.
Speaker 3:Well, that picture shows me and I'm kneeling down next to a woman and she's kneeling down and there's a long line of kids between the ages of 2 and 16. Why 2 and 16? Pretty random. If you're over 16, you're on your own. If you're under two, you're going to die anyway. So she's measuring the arms of the kids. If their arm is too little, well, sorry, you're going to die anyway. No food for you. If their arm is too big, well, you're not hungry enough. If their arm is in the middle, you got food.
Speaker 3:So that picture is in my office. I look at it every day and I keep that picture as a little reminder Every time I start wanting to complain about something. Poor me, isn't life tough? Not so much. See, that picture is the me of then looking at the me today, and that me is of then looking at the me today, and that me is sending a message to the me today Be grateful for what you have. You're not in that line, by the way. That was hard for me, unbelievably difficult for me. I'm not measuring the arms.
Speaker 3:Right, you're not making that final decision. Yeah, I'm not sitting there playing God, right, she's literally sending kids off to their death. You know how hard is it for her. Remember next, how hard is it for the kids. That's not fun, no, but the worst. You look at that picture. What's the worst? Mama, yeah, how hard is it for mama? Yeah, your kid dies, sorry.
Speaker 2:Wow. You know, one of the things that I got from that is just being grateful, practicing gratitude, and obviously the external me part of me wants to say I want to go over there and save these children, but that's a very large feat. But obviously we can donate our money. We can donate our resources, our time to do as much as we can for those who are so disenfranchised throughout the world. But the one thing is a lot of us don't have a lot of capacity to do that. We have some, but all of us have the capacity to take this picture in this moment and the things we know that are going on in the world and say, okay, how can I practice gratitude in my life? Because to some degree it's almost honoring those who are not as fortunate as we are, Because I know, for me I have in the past, but I'm working on that because I do not have a genetic flaw. As you said.
Speaker 2:I have really worked in the last five years on practicing gratitude every day. You know, I get up, Marshall, at five o'clock. I do the same routine every single day for about an hour and a half. I have a very structured morning six days a week and the third, fourth thing on my list every morning is I write down five things. I'm grateful for that at that moment, and it could be the warm cup of coffee in my hand. It's the birds chirping Sometimes. They're small things I'm just grateful for, and I have found by doing that it has changed my mindset to the point where I see a lot more beauty in the life around me and a lot less negative, because my mind is being programmed to seek those out and we all can do that exercise. It's free, it takes very little time and we all have the capacity to sit down and write or think about the things we are most grateful for on a consistent basis.
Speaker 3:I think it's a great idea.
Speaker 2:In that picture. Actually, with your permission, of course, I'm going to have that put on my wall because I want it to be a constant reminder of how fortunate we are and how we have to use the fortunes we've had and the blessings we've been given in life to impact the world around us. Because when I watched your documentary oh my goodness, I watched it two or three times when you talked about that story right away, I just took a picture of my computer screen. When they blew up the picture and I had it put on the computer, they showed it. I took a picture of that, so it's a little blurry, but it is a really good reminder of how blessed many of us are in the world and we can't take that for granted.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, thank you, I think that's a very good idea. I'll tell you what. You send me an email and I'll make a nice copy of the picture and write a little note on it and send it back to you.
Speaker 2:I will do that this afternoon. I'll get an email out to you. Thank you, I appreciate that, Marshall. One of the things I was really struck by and I remember reading this in 2007 or 2008, whenever I read what Got you here Won't Get you, there was never start a question with no but or however. Is that something you still practice?
Speaker 3:Yeah, tell me. Don't respond to anybody's ideas with no but or however. Don't give positive recognition with no but or however, because the word but just destroys whatever you said before.
Speaker 2:And I know in the documentary that I watched, you had an executive sitting next to you in the airplane and you told him that right away, and I don't know how many times he said that he started, he lost $420.
Speaker 3:I charge you $20 every time you do it. He lost $420 in an hour and a half.
Speaker 2:And you raised a lot of money for charities with that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the money all goes to charity. And at the end of the hour and a half he said thank you. He said I had no idea. I do this constantly. Now he said I did it 21 times, with you throwing it in my face every time I did it. How many times were I done? Had you not been throwing it in my face 50 times, 100 times? Now? His feedback was people thought he was stubborn. He said no wonder people think I'm stubborn. The first thing I do when someone talks I prove I know more than them or they're wrong. Over and over and over again.
Speaker 2:Well, since I saw that I've been really focusing on not responding to people's statements with those three words and even in my writing I've been really focusing on not responding to people's statements with those three words, and even in my writing I've been noticing I've been really catching myself. When I journal to myself in the mornings I catch myself. Even today I said something to the effect of I'm very excited to interview Marshall Goldsmith today. I feel I'm very prepared. And then I started to put however, am I overly prepared? Sometimes you can over-prepare sometimes and and it throws you off. And I crossed it right off. I said I. Now I? The only question I have is perhaps I'm overly prepared. So, but I was, I caught myself wanting to use the but or however word. Good, my clients, my clients, won't be happy if I start charging them every time. They say those. But I'm gonna I'm gonna throw that out there this week happy if I start charging them every time they say those, but I'm going to, I'm going to throw that out there.
Speaker 3:This week the money all goes to charity. Anyway, let them pick. Let them pick the charity.
Speaker 2:You know one of the stories that I really I got a funny story about this yeah go ahead One guy I'm charging.
Speaker 3:My clients are. A lot of them are rich people, right. So this guy's and the money's all going to a charity. I have 20 bucks. He picked the charity 40 bucks. He gets up for like 200 bucks. He said that's expensive. I said, excuse me, you personally donated over $10 million to this charity last year and you're complaining about 20 bucks. What's wrong with you? He said you're right, 20 bucks, is not it? He didn't want to hear it.
Speaker 2:That's right. Yeah, we don't really like that instant feedback coming at us when we make those type of errors. Right, I know you have been close friends with Frances Hesselbein before she passed. I know the former CEO of Girl Scouts of America. Will you share the story about doing the laundry?
Speaker 3:Yeah, to me that story, story number one, a little context. Francis Husslebein, peter Drucker said, was the greatest leader he has ever met in his life. And Peter Drucker would not say that for no reason. He did not give gratuitous compliments to anybody. So Francis Husslebein'm just an amazing human being.
Speaker 3:I had the honor of coaching her. I was a volunteer, but of whatever she learned from me, I learned a hundred times from her. So anyway, she calls me up one day and says I want you to give this talk, if you don't mind, to the heads of the Girl Scouts in the big cities you know New York, chicago, la. I said well, frances, I'm happy to do it, but I'm booked, like every day of the week for a long time. I could only do it on Saturday. She said you work on Saturday, we work on Saturday. You're the volunteer, not me, no problems.
Speaker 3:Well then I thought a little more. I said look, francis, it's very embarrassing for me to bring up, but I'm in a different city every day. I'm going to run out of clean clothes and you know you got to have clean clothes eventually. And is there any way that somehow you could help me get clean clothes? Francis said not at all problem. We're going to work here in the Girl Scout Center. You spend the night here and all you got to do is take all your clothes, put them in a pile in the middle of the floor and then I'll have someone pick up your dirty clothes, we'll clean them all and then, when you get done, all your clothes are clean. Well, I said, you know I was embarrassed to say this, but thank you so much, francis, for doing that.
Speaker 3:So the next morning I'm having breakfast with the head of the Girl Scouts in New York and LA, very distinguished women. Right and I look, and walking down the hall is Frances Husslebutt. She's carrying my dirty clothes, dirty underwear, dirty socks. She's taking them herself to the laundry room. Every woman saw her. What a message. Talk about servant leadership? Well, she did not have to give a speech.
Speaker 2:She just acted leadership.
Speaker 3:And, by the way, after that she didn't have to give a speech.
Speaker 2:No, you know, I, when I I read that or I believe I saw that somewhere and I thought about myself. When I was younger, marshall, when I was coaching leadership and doing a lot of talks and coaching on leadership to my clients, I was so adamantly against servant leadership. Robert Greenleaf, who was kind of the founder of the term servant leadership, I, robert Greenleaf, who is the kind of the founder of the term servant leadership, anyway, I would bash him in talks and coaching sessions and say there's no such thing. You don't put the cart before the horse, you have to have the horse first. I was young, I was 29 years old when I started coaching. I was very full of a lot of bravado, a lot of ego, a lot of insecurity, a lot of insecurity. And my clients would say, well, why is servant leadership so bad? And I'd say because you can't have leadership without the leader being first. And that's kind of how I somewhat grew up in the corporate world in the five or six years I was there. But it wasn't taught to us, it was just kind of the message I heard.
Speaker 2:And it was probably eight to ten years after I got into coaching, so maybe 18, 19 years ago, when I started making a shift and thinking wait a minute, why am I so against servant leadership? What's wrong with servant leadership? And when you study you know whether it's Jesus or Buddha, any moral philosopher from our history it's all about servant leadership. And I think Jim Collins' book Good to Great maybe, or one of his books, kind of set me on that path back in the day of thinking, wait a minute, maybe there's something to this phrase. And now that's really all I coach is.
Speaker 2:When I talk leadership, it's all primarily servant leadership. So I was able to thankfully catch myself in my insecurities and my lack of experience and wisdom. But it took me about eight to 10 years after I started coaching before I made that metamorphosis and that change. And when I heard about Francis with the laundry, I thought that's the perfect example That'll be imprinted in my memory and I can visualize that in my head every time I'm working with a client and working with them on their leadership skill sets.
Speaker 3:It's just, she was a wonderful leader, a wonderful role model. She lived to be 107, and I'll tell you another story about her. I got to see her right before she died and someone was taking care of her. They called me and said you know, if you want to say goodbye, you've got to say goodbye. So I basically went over to say goodbye and I thought she was probably in a coma. She can't even hear me, whatever. So this woman says to her Marshall's here. Her eyes light up. She says Marshall, it's so wonderful to see you.
Speaker 3:She talked to me 20 minutes. She said stuff like I just feel great. She was dying. She couldn't eat, she couldn't move. She has no doubt of excruciating pain. I feel great. How are you doing my wife's Lida? How's Lida? I made a call with Lida. She talks to Lida on the phone. She could barely talk when Lida was on the phone. Boom, her voice picks up very strong. That 20 minutes was not about her, it was about me. It was about me. Well, she's dying. She wasn't thinking about herself. She never complained. It was never poor me. Look at me. I'm dying, I'm miserable. No, I feel great. She is so wonderful to see you. You've meant so much in my life. Thank you, you know, you've been such a wonderful friend. I was the customer, not her.
Speaker 2:And that, to me, is the definition of what you call an earned life she's earned her life Wow.
Speaker 3:That was it. She never changed. She died at 107.
Speaker 2:I saw that. That's amazing. What an impact she's made on the world.
Speaker 3:And on me, on you. Yeah, how many times have I ever heard her complain about poor me? I'm miserable. It's not fair. I'm a victim. Never. Another great leader. Our coach, alan Mulally, was sealed for it and he was in the movie as well. I saw that Alan Mulally is just an amazing guy Huge track record, a financial track record, but also 97% approval rating from every employee at a union company. I've known Alan for decades. How many times have I heard him complain? Never.
Speaker 2:Never I loved talking about his life plan review. I think it was his business plan review that he would use with his executives with the red, yellow, green.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he's an amazing guy.
Speaker 2:The simplicity of that idea.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he's an amazing man. He didn't do anything complicated, he just did it.
Speaker 2:Wasn't he at Boeing before he went to Ford? Was it Boeing?
Speaker 3:He was at Boeing for the 7th, 37th, huge success at Boeing. He went to Ford. He was at Boeing for their heyday and then he went to Ford and totally turned the company around. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like when the two of you were talking in the documentary and they were, I think, when everybody. For the first time. Folks, I'm going to ask you to read the Earned Life. It'll give you a really good insight of Alan's business plan review process with the red, yellow, green.
Speaker 2:But everybody had green or something like that, the first time he implemented this and both of you were laughing and saying, well, what was the company at the beginning? They're losing how much money per year and how much debt did they have? But yet everybody had showed green and everything they were doing was working really well. Because they were so afraid of perhaps the former CEO or typical leadership of coming down on you if you shared that your department wasn't performing as well as it should and so you wanted to spotlight your successes and not spotlight the things that weren't working so well and how he turned that around and to make it a very safe place for executives, leaders around the company and around the world to say, hey, we are doing some really great things over in my department, but we're also have some struggles that we need help with. And again, that's kind of right around that idea of somewhat of servant leadership. You know just I'm here to help.
Speaker 3:Well, I mean, you know, Alan, the company was losing $17 billion, going bankrupt. And he said everyone, talk about your top five priorities. 16 people in the room Green is on plan, yellow is I'm not on plan, but I have a strategy to get there, and red is I don't have a strategy. 16 people, 80 priorities, all green, and the company is losing $17 billion. Al said well, look, everybody's on plan and we're losing $17 billion and we're going back. Maybe we should reconsider the plan. It seems to be a very bad plan. Well, they have been brought up. There's an old management saying don't come to me with a problem. Don't come to me unless you have a solution. That is such bad advice. What had been taught? If you have a problem but you have a solution, don't come to me. So they said okay, boss, I won't. I have a problem A and I don't have a solution B. So therefore, what did you just tell me? Don't come to me.
Speaker 2:I'm going to hide the problem. Hide the problem. Wow, I really liked the video of you, the scene where you were shooting pool with Jay Wagner, I think it is and I was watching your style of that. You have that calmness about you which I'm sure you've heard before. When you're talking with people, you're very you, you pull people in and I was watching the second time I watched the documentary. I was watching you laugh with Jay and you guys were having a good, a good time.
Speaker 2:But as soon as you knelt down to shoot that, you had your stick in your hand and you were aiming. You know I'm not player, so I'm not. I'm a very I'm not. I've never really enjoyed pool. But as soon as you got down the stick in your hand and you're just setting up, your face went to a different focus. I don't know if you ever noticed that in the documentary, but I would go back and watch that. You went from this laughing calm I'm focused now and there's a it's a microsecond change, it's a nanosecond. But I thought about that for a moment and I thought that right there encapsulates what I've learned about you through your writings and through your speeches and through the things I've witnessed on you, but I really liked that. You said when Jay was getting ready to sink the eight ball and he says, with this shot I'm going to win, and you said, unless you scratch. And sure, enough enough, he scratched, it was a perfect ending.
Speaker 3:Well, you know what you couldn't have scripted, that you couldn't have. No, look, look, I used to shoot. I used to shoot for money when I was a kid, so I was never that great a pool player but a great psychologist. So I won a lot of money shooting pool. Because just because of that scene, said I, I intentionally put that thought in his head. You know, yeah, don't scratch. And then he put it immediately, immediately. I want to say one thing before we forget. You've been mentioning my documentary. I want everybody to go to wwwmarshallgoldsmithcom. My documentary is online and it's free. Almost all my articles are free. There's a whole coach you can come to. Coachingcom is free. My website, marshallgoldsmithai. Go to marshallgoldsmithai, ask me any question. That's free, so I'm giving everything away. So just go to my website, start looking at articles, watch the documentary. There's videos. It's all free.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm going to include a link in the show notes for this episode, so everybody click on that right away. I keep it up on my bar at all times because I go on there sometimes and search articles. I just printed off yesterday and I sent it to several clients your article Leadership as a Contact Sport, by the way, marshall, and when did you write this? Do you remember?
Speaker 3:I don't exactly remember what year it was, but that article's been read millions of times and it basically is 86,000 people in a research study. And it basically is 86,000 people in a research study and it showed that you know, leaders that get feedback and follow up over and over again get better, and leaders that go to programs like American Express was part of that study, by the way. You might have been part of that study, I don't know, but American Express had thousands of people in the database. So what happened is everybody got feedback. At American Express. We did a class for all the leaders. So what happened is everybody got feedback at American Express. We did a class for all the leaders. They all got feedback.
Speaker 3:We invented the first 360 feedback, I think for American Express. They're in the study. And then we did measure. Did the leader talk to you? Like we taught them to? Did they follow up on a regular basis? And if they did look at the research, they got better. If they didn't, they didn't. Well, the learning point is they didn't get better because they went to my class or read a book. They got feedback. They got better because they did something. You got to work.
Speaker 2:Well, I remember reading this article several years ago and I printed it up yesterday and I actually took it and sent it to several clients last night. And when I had it printed up and I had it in my hand, I thought I have this in my leadership file somewhere In my leadership file, I do, but I have a fresh copy now, so I'm going to reread it. I have a question how many years have you been doing coaching now then?
Speaker 3:What's the Well, 47, roughly.
Speaker 2:And yet you have someone call you every night and ask you daily questions, Right? Can you explain that to us a little bit better? I love that idea.
Speaker 3:Because it's very simple. I'm too cowardly and I'm disciplined and do this stuff by myself and it's hard. See everything. You go to my website. I give away everything I mean you can understand stakeholder coaching. It's not complicated. You can understand daily everything I mean you can understand stakeholder coaching. It's not complicated. You can understand daily questions. I don't say anything that's hard to understand, it's just hard to do. It's phenomenally hard to do.
Speaker 3:Most people with daily questions. You ask yourself questions every day. You get better. Well, it's not hard to understand. Just pick six questions If you did nothing else. There's another article. I wrote about six questions. Send me a note. Six. There's another article I wrote about six questions. Send me a note.
Speaker 3:Six-question researcher. It's on the website. You know the daily question. Look up the daily questions article.
Speaker 3:I think it's called Questions that Make a Difference, I forget, but in any case, you ask yourself questions every day and I'm going to give you six and they all begin with did I do my best to? The first question is did I do my best to set clear goals? So every day you get the day started. You set goals. Did I do my best to make progress for achieving the goals after I set them Measure that every day.
Speaker 3:Did I do my best to every day find meaning Rather than waiting for the world to be meaningful? Did I create meaning? Did I do my best to be happy Rather than waiting for others to make us happy? Did I do my best to be happy myself? Did I happy that I don't have to be happy myself? Did I do my best to be fully engaged and did I do my best to build great relationships with other people? Every day, six questions did you do your best? If you do nothing based on this call, but do those six questions every day, you're gonna have a better life. The average person quits in two weeks what I like can.
Speaker 2:So do you see, I obviously let's stop for a second.
Speaker 3:Have you tried to to do this yourself? I have not why.
Speaker 2:I'm afraid.
Speaker 3:Of course.
Speaker 2:I'm afraid of what my answers will be.
Speaker 3:I am too cowardly and I'm just going to do it by myself. And I wrote the book. Somebody said, don't, I know the theory. I wrote the theory. I know the theory. I know how hard it is. I'm giving you a challenge, starting today. You're going to do these daily questions every day. It takes three or four minutes a day. It's hard to do. I'll tell you. Call me up in six months and tell me how you're doing.
Speaker 2:I commit that I'll start doing these today.
Speaker 3:Call me in six months. See months. You've got the see. If you've got the guts to make it six months well, marshall, I'm.
Speaker 2:One thing I'm really good at is follow-up, and I so I will definitely be calling you and I'll mark it down six months from today, in fact, I'm gonna know right now. Call me up for the report. I will certainly do that. Yep, it's sitting on my desk now because I have these questions printed up. I had it in my, in my, my podcast preparation notes.
Speaker 2:I just find that to be what taught me is one of the things I share with my clients is, you know, I've hired coaches, I have mentors. I have, you know, I have an accountability team that I've used over the years, many, many times, where I report to them every week what I'm going to do and whether I've done it, and so I tell my clients. You know, I do this for a living and yet I still struggle. Quite often Same thing, afraid and undisciplined. I'm afraid of the answers I'm going to find. I'm not disciplined enough to do these on my own. So reaching out to other people for me has been a lifesaver. And you put somewhere, rode, I believe somewhere.
Speaker 2:I heard that coaching is for winners, and I think about that and I think it's even beyond that. It's asking for help is for winners and I, you know, when I started this business and I kind of alluded to this before we started recording Marshall when I started this at 29 years old, I purposely never read a book on coaching and there were a few books scattered out there not very many, and I didn't talk to any other coaches that I not that I knew many, but I knew there were some out there 29 years ago and I said no, I'm going to do this on my own, I'm going to do it my way. I don't want anybody telling me how to do this. Oh, what a mistake that was. I look back and think man, that was the one big blunder I've made in my coaching career is.
Speaker 2:At an early age I thought I was a rock and I was an island and I could do it all on my own. And I have definitely changed that mind shift, thankfully, probably through necessity more than anything else over my life. But I do like this. I love this idea of these questions and I will commit today that I will do this every day Good, and I will report to you back in six months.
Speaker 3:And life is good and it's been wonderful to talk to you.
Speaker 2:It's been a pleasure talking to you, my friend. I know you've got other things and other commitments today, but I just want to take the time to again. I said this before we started today You've been a personal and professional hero of mine for years. I want to thank you for coming on the podcast, but more than anything, I want to thank you for the impact you've made on me and on the world around you. I'm blessed to share this earth with you right now.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you so much. You've made my day and I just hope that maybe a few people listening to this podcast hopefully have a little better life based on our conversation, I know.
Speaker 2:I have. Thank you, my friend, have a blessed day today.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 2:Bye have a blessed day today. Thank you, bye-bye, bye-bye Everyone. Thank you for tuning in. Honestly, this was one of my highlight podcasts. This is episode number 152, I believe, and I'm so glad to be able to share Marshall and his wisdom and his journey and his beauty with you today. I'm blessed to have this interview to share with all of you. I'll talk to you all a week from today. Same time, same place. In the meantime, please get out there and strive to give and be your best, show love and respect to others and to yourself, and please live with purpose. I appreciate each and every single one of you.
